Speaker 1: We're Tom Lorenzo and this is the Pop Style Opinion Fest. Hello, KITT's,
Speaker 1: welcome back to another edition of the p SL. I'm
Speaker 1: the team. You're te Lo Tom Fitzgerald, and I'm here
Speaker 1: with the Loane You t Lo Lorenzo becas my love,
Speaker 1: the husband who's you know what you're dying to say it?
Speaker 2: Go ahead say birthday to my wonderful husband. It's his
Speaker 2: birthday today. He didn't want to me to mention it,
Speaker 2: but I will, and I think I need to. He's
Speaker 2: a wonderful man. I'm so honored and proud and happy
Speaker 2: to be with you.
Speaker 1: The same.
Speaker 2: Anyway, it's his birthday and he's a wonderful person. So
Speaker 2: happy birthday.
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. You were also wonderful person. Much
Speaker 1: to discuss today. We're gonna dive into some Pride stuff
Speaker 1: and oh we're going to have a lot to say
Speaker 1: about the finale Widow's Bay. That'll be in the second
Speaker 1: half of this podcast because we're going to spoil the
Speaker 1: hell out of that one. But we wanted to weigh
Speaker 1: in on the current Pride Night controversy that is hitting
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball. We have thoughts that probably shouldn't surprise you.
Speaker 1: But actually I think our conclusions might surprise you. But
Speaker 1: before we get into that, I kind of have an
Speaker 1: announcement and it's not you know, it's not a happy one,
Speaker 1: but it's not a terrible one. Don't worry.
Speaker 2: Oh, we just thought that you guys who have been
Speaker 2: following us and following the story needed to do. Yeah.
Speaker 2: We all right.
Speaker 1: So if you've been listening to us or reading us
Speaker 1: or whatever for any length of time, you might know
Speaker 1: that we have been working with a woman named Rachel
Speaker 1: Harlowe on her biograph. Rachel is a trans woman who
Speaker 1: U fifty years ago. Sixty years ago, she became a
Speaker 1: cause celeb at the can Film Festival, and she went
Speaker 1: off to Hollywood, and then she came back to Philadelphia
Speaker 1: and opened a discotheque. And she had a very colorful life.
Speaker 1: She dated Grace Kelly's brother at one point it was
Speaker 1: a big scandal in the city. A lot of fascinating
Speaker 1: aspects to her life and we, I in particular, have
Speaker 1: been obsessed with her since I was a kid. She
Speaker 1: was a local Philadelphia legend when I was a kid,
Speaker 1: and I was obsessed with her. And then when we
Speaker 1: were researching Legendary Children, our book on the history of
Speaker 1: drag and queer culture. Her story came up and I thought,
Speaker 1: oh God, no one really, you know, when you look
Speaker 1: her up and everything, there just wasn't a lot of
Speaker 1: information about her out there. She had faded in importance,
Speaker 1: and I felt that we had a sort of a
Speaker 1: responsibility to try and get her story back out in
Speaker 1: the world. So after several years of trying to track
Speaker 1: her down, we finally did, and we got her to
Speaker 1: agree to work with us on this book. And we
Speaker 1: spent three years interviewing her, interviewing her friends and colleagues,
Speaker 1: and doing research on the book and pitching it. And
Speaker 1: let me explain a little bit about the world of
Speaker 1: pitching a book. So I've never written novels, so I
Speaker 1: can't even speak to what it's like for when you're
Speaker 1: writing fiction. But when you're writing nonfiction, you normally have
Speaker 1: to submit a proposal for consideration, and that proposal is
Speaker 1: basically a shorter version of the book.
Speaker 2: It's it.
Speaker 1: You know, there's more to it than that, but you
Speaker 1: basically have to have every chapter of the book completely
Speaker 1: mapped out and partially written, and you usually have to
Speaker 1: have at least one chapter fully written out. You have
Speaker 1: to have a more marketing plan, you have to have
Speaker 1: you know, you have to talk about what your goals
Speaker 1: and themes and everything for the book is going to be.
Speaker 1: And it's a long process and it's a hard process.
Speaker 1: And speaking as the co authors of two different of
Speaker 1: two published books, you should know that we have gone
Speaker 1: through this process six or seven times. There's you know,
Speaker 1: you throw out proposals, but you don't always get offers.
Speaker 1: But we felt very very strongly about this book, and
Speaker 1: our initial round of pitches were met with some reluctance
Speaker 1: because the publishing industry was feeling this and this was
Speaker 1: last year, was feeling that maybe trans stories were too controversial,
Speaker 1: maybe the public was turning against this sort of thing,
Speaker 1: you know, in the wake of the Trump election and everything.
Speaker 1: So we weren't getting offers. And then we retold it
Speaker 1: and sent it out again this year and we started
Speaker 1: getting a lot of interest with it. Actually, in fact,
Speaker 1: more interest from this proposal than from any other proposal
Speaker 1: we've ever had out there. At one point there were
Speaker 1: four publishers who were expressing interest and our agent was
Speaker 1: thinking about trying to get them into a sort of
Speaker 1: you know, pitching battle or whatever in the end. But
Speaker 1: like I said, it's very difficult right now, nonfiction publishing
Speaker 1: is in free fall. Nobody understands what sells. The only
Speaker 1: things that seem to sell are like celebrity books or
Speaker 1: political books written by political insiders, but you know, everything else.
Speaker 1: And there have been several high profile trands biographies that
Speaker 1: were published in the last couple of years. One was
Speaker 1: Marsha P. Johnson's, one was Candy Darlings, and they did
Speaker 1: they didn't actually sell all that well, so it was
Speaker 1: an uphill battle. At one point I said to Lorenzo,
Speaker 1: was like, I feel like I'm swimming up a waterfall
Speaker 1: trying to get this done. But we believed in it,
Speaker 1: and we and there were there were publishers showing interest,
Speaker 1: so we just kept plugging away and plugging away. This
Speaker 1: was a very hard process for Rachel because everything I
Speaker 1: just said to you about the industry, about the culture,
Speaker 1: about where we are right now, and the difficulties of
Speaker 1: selling a nonfiction book that was kind of falling on
Speaker 1: deaf ears every time I tried to explain it to her,
Speaker 1: because from her perspective, she felt like it was a
Speaker 1: statement on her life, like she was taking the slowness
Speaker 1: of this process somewhat personally. Long story short, we last
Speaker 1: month we fielded two offers from publishers. They were not
Speaker 1: lucrative offers, but they were very you know, the publishers
Speaker 1: were excited, and the fact that we were able to
Speaker 1: get these offers in this market right just insane, insane,
Speaker 1: and we were ready to sign with one of them,
Speaker 1: the one who made the better offer. When Rachel she bounced.
Speaker 1: Basically she found the whole process too, I guess, demoralizing
Speaker 1: in a certain way, like her whole life was put
Speaker 1: on a on a on display, and and and we
Speaker 1: had to pitch it. Like I think in her mind
Speaker 1: she thought people were just going to line up and
Speaker 1: and just throw money at us. And you should understand
Speaker 1: that we in agreement with Rachel that we were splitting
Speaker 1: the advance with her, so she had a financial stake
Speaker 1: in this. She was not happy, She was not happy
Speaker 1: with the author with the offer, and away just walked
Speaker 1: away from it, completely, cut off, cut off contact with us.
Speaker 1: After three years. Yeah, let me you can get your
Speaker 1: I'm not going to cut you off. But I always
Speaker 1: want to say this was painful, beyond painful, and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm not going to bad mouth her, but it was very,
Speaker 1: very disappointing, and I want to reiterate she loved what
Speaker 1: we wrote. This was not a bad her not believing
Speaker 1: in the process. I mean she cried when she read
Speaker 1: the proposal. She cried when she read the piece in
Speaker 1: the Inquirer. So this wasn't about creative differences. It wasn't
Speaker 1: about her walking away from something that she felt wasn't
Speaker 1: in her best interest. She just you know, didn't think
Speaker 1: it was worth her time, so to speak. And we
Speaker 1: felt we needed to tell you because we put ourself.
Speaker 1: We stuck our necks out. As I said, this is
Speaker 1: like our seventh book proposal. We don't go around telling
Speaker 1: everyone when we're because you don't know if these things
Speaker 1: are going to work out.
Speaker 2: That's because we believe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not only that, but we felt like we need
Speaker 1: to drum up interest, We need to be out there
Speaker 1: telling people that we're working on this. So we stuck
Speaker 1: our neck out and now this book is not happening,
Speaker 1: even though we did get the offers right. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I thought you needed to know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, writing a book, pitching a TV show
Speaker 2: or a movie or anything it's so much work that
Speaker 2: people don't know. People don't know. That's why sometimes you
Speaker 2: see you producers say, you know, it took us five
Speaker 2: years to get this show. You know, someone to agree on,
Speaker 2: you know, saying yes this show or movie or book.
Speaker 2: If you're not very very famous like Barbara Streis and
Speaker 2: line them Ali for example, or or the show Obama.
Speaker 2: You know, people are not lining up to sign up
Speaker 2: with you for anything. Believe me, you.
Speaker 1: We never went into this thinging it was you really
Speaker 1: have to, because we.
Speaker 2: Know how it works and how hard you have to
Speaker 2: work on getting a book published. Again, if you're not
Speaker 2: Michelle Obama is, you really have to work hard. You
Speaker 2: have to convince this people. And when it comes to books,
Speaker 2: books is specifically there's a window there and if you
Speaker 2: miss that window, then it's gone. Uh, they have no
Speaker 2: interest anymore. And sometimes they have slots like like a
Speaker 2: publisher will say, okay, we'll have well, we're gonna publish
Speaker 2: five books this this semester this year, and then they
Speaker 2: you know, if you're not one one of those books
Speaker 2: or or whatever they want to publish that, then they
Speaker 2: pass and then you move on to the next one.
Speaker 2: It's just and then the whole political thing. Also, you know, people.
Speaker 1: Were scared of looking at LGBTQ stories when we first
Speaker 1: started pitching this in like twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: So when we talk to Rachel about this book, we
Speaker 2: were very clear from the beginning that you know, we're
Speaker 2: here to tell your story.
Speaker 1: We're not here to make money.
Speaker 2: We're not here to make money. I want to tell
Speaker 2: you that we're not here to make money. And because
Speaker 2: this is how it works. And the thing is that
Speaker 2: when you get a book published, you might not make
Speaker 2: a lot of money, but there's potential there to have
Speaker 2: that book. You know, I don't know, pitch as a
Speaker 2: TV show, a documentary or something. I mean there's potential
Speaker 2: there after you get the book published. So sometimes you
Speaker 2: publish a book not because of the money, but because
Speaker 2: it's going to be out there published and things can
Speaker 2: happen after that. So anyway, it you know, it's it's
Speaker 2: it's a lot of stress. It's it's it's it's it's
Speaker 2: not a funny, uh a fun process at all. It's
Speaker 2: very stressful. You don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: You know, you ruin my health this year. I'll be perfect.
Speaker 1: The stress of this really had an effect on my.
Speaker 2: Thomas specifically has been working on this for three years
Speaker 2: and it's just hard. It's as hard. And when we
Speaker 2: finally and I give him a lot of credit for that,
Speaker 2: because we got two offers, which is a maroquette.
Speaker 1: You know, I will state for the record that getting
Speaker 1: those offers in this market, yes times, what I'm telling
Speaker 1: this story is honestly one of the greatest professional achievements
Speaker 1: of my life to actually get offers, because it for
Speaker 1: a really long time, it didn't look like it was
Speaker 1: going to happen.
Speaker 2: So so and I give him a lot of credit,
Speaker 2: and I hope he keeps that in mind that he
Speaker 2: worked trying, He worked really really hard, and we only
Speaker 2: got offers because of him. But then, you know, after
Speaker 2: we got two offers, we were excited about one offer
Speaker 2: and then she decided not to do it anymore.
Speaker 1: So that was she write no context completely.
Speaker 2: So it was heartbreaking.
Speaker 1: So it was heartbreaking.
Speaker 2: And we want to put this out there because we
Speaker 2: mentioned this book so much for you guys, and you know,
Speaker 2: to give you a little understanding, a little bit of
Speaker 2: you know, how things work. So if you write a book,
Speaker 2: believe me, it's a long process. It's not just writing
Speaker 2: a book. Type in the book and giving to somebody
Speaker 2: and say yes, we're going to publish. It's a lot
Speaker 2: of work. It's trying to convince a whole bunch of
Speaker 2: a whole group of people that that book is worth publishing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a long process and you really have to believe
Speaker 2: in it, which we did. But we were also relying
Speaker 2: on her to be part of it. And when you know,
Speaker 2: you decide not to do it.
Speaker 1: Just as an explanation, I mean, there was no question
Speaker 1: of us continuing without her. The pitch. Every time a
Speaker 1: publisher came back to us with a question or expressing
Speaker 1: an interest, they all had the same question, how involved
Speaker 1: is Rachel? Because they want they wanted her involvement, they
Speaker 1: wanted and part of the pitch that you know in
Speaker 1: the proposal was that we said that Rachel would be
Speaker 1: available to promote the book, that she would do interviews
Speaker 1: for the book and that sort of thing. But if
Speaker 1: if she's not doing that, then you know, there can
Speaker 1: be no book. Not in the current atmosphere, right, I
Speaker 1: have all this material on Rachel. I have forty hours
Speaker 1: of interviews. I'm not saying there will never be a book.
Speaker 1: But this project is dead for now.
Speaker 2: The bottom line here is that, and the takeaway here
Speaker 2: for everyone, even if you're not involved in this project obviously,
Speaker 2: is that you know, you take a lot of nose
Speaker 2: before you take a yes, and you just have to
Speaker 2: get used to it right and if you and if
Speaker 2: you're not ready for that, then you fall apart. That's
Speaker 2: what happened with her. You just have to keep going.
Speaker 2: And you know, it's a process. It's a very stressful process.
Speaker 2: You have to work really hard to get that there,
Speaker 2: and you know, we did and then we did it.
Speaker 1: Anyway, we're working on There was a book proposal put
Speaker 1: aside several years back so that we could work on
Speaker 1: this Rachel book because we thought it was more timely.
Speaker 1: So we're returning to a previous proposal. It is about
Speaker 1: movie costumes, and hopefully someday we'll have an announcement about
Speaker 1: that one. As always, you just pick up the pieces
Speaker 1: and rode on exactly. All right, So let's take a
Speaker 1: short break and we'll be back and we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about the Pride Night controversy.
Speaker 2: We'll be right back.
Speaker 1: We're back, and we're going to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about the Pride Night controversy sleep in the Nation, So
Speaker 1: it became what a surprise, let's start with this. Last year,
Speaker 1: tonight is actually Pride Night for the Phillies. We won't
Speaker 1: be going because we're going out to dinner for my birthday.
Speaker 1: But last year we did go on my birthday for
Speaker 1: Pride Night. It was the first time I had ever
Speaker 1: been at a Pride Night. I've been going to Phillies
Speaker 1: games since I was you know, for as long as
Speaker 1: I can remember, since I was a child, but I'd
Speaker 1: never gone on a Pride Night And it was lovely
Speaker 1: and revelatory because, you know, the the lights in the
Speaker 1: stadium were lit up rainbow, and every time you looked
Speaker 1: at the JumboTron there was some queer person up there.
Speaker 1: There was you know, trans people and lesbians and gay
Speaker 1: people every single time and like gaying it up. You know,
Speaker 1: there were drag queens and everything, and just that they
Speaker 1: had the choir, the Philadelphia Oh yeah, they had the
Speaker 1: Philadelphia Gay Men's Choir. It just it was lovely as
Speaker 1: a Phillies fan and a baseball fan to have that
Speaker 1: moment of community in a space where you never felt
Speaker 1: like you could have that moment of community. And I'll
Speaker 1: say something here that people they never like hearing this,
Speaker 1: But you know, Lorenzo and I are gen X came
Speaker 1: in we are gay men of a certain age, and
Speaker 1: we didn't we didn't come of age. You know, a
Speaker 1: world as accepting of us as it is now. So
Speaker 1: to go to a baseball in a stadium as a
Speaker 1: gay couple on a non pride night means that, yes,
Speaker 1: you are kind of tempering your behavior. You're not gonna, like,
Speaker 1: you know, get all affectionate in the stands unless you're
Speaker 1: sure you're you know, that's just that's just the reality
Speaker 1: of it. I'm sorry. We Lorenzo and I also don't
Speaker 1: walk down the street holding hands. We've never kissed in public.
Speaker 1: Like we're not of that generation and I and very
Speaker 1: much even no matter your generation, a major league sporting
Speaker 1: event is generally not the place for queer expression of
Speaker 1: any kind.
Speaker 2: And to be honest with you, even when it's Pride day,
Speaker 2: I don't feel that comfortable doing certain things, you know,
Speaker 2: like holding hands or whatever. I mean, that's just see,
Speaker 2: that's me because that's how I grew up, never holding
Speaker 2: hands or never showing any affection. I mean even even
Speaker 2: in the presence of family members. It's sometimes things have changed,
Speaker 2: believe me. But but we are.
Speaker 1: Of the generation, and like I said, this isn't just
Speaker 1: a generational thing. I think young queer people also don't
Speaker 1: feel like a Major League Baseball game is necessarily a
Speaker 1: place where they can make out with their girlfriend or whatever.
Speaker 1: Not that you know, you should be watching the game
Speaker 1: and cheering the game. It's not. It's not a place
Speaker 1: to make out. But even so, any sort of affection
Speaker 1: or or queerness or expression of yourself you sort of
Speaker 1: have to temper it. You sort of have to make
Speaker 1: sure am I okay here. That's just the reality being
Speaker 1: queer in the world, and even more so in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty six. So I just want to say I loved
Speaker 1: Pride Night, and I I think I felt more of
Speaker 1: a sense of pride and community there than I did
Speaker 1: at the most recent Pride event, you know, Pride Parade
Speaker 1: or whatever that I went to, maybe because because of
Speaker 1: the setting. The setting itself wasn't gay. The setting was,
Speaker 1: if anything, ragingly heteronormative. So to see that sort of
Speaker 1: queerness and that acceptance of queerness, and let's be clear here,
Speaker 1: it's a stadium of forty five thousand people, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: five percent of them were queer, and everybody else just
Speaker 1: had to deal with all that queerness around them and
Speaker 1: there was no problem. I mean, Philly is not the
Speaker 1: most progressive called, you know, socially progressive city in the world,
Speaker 1: but it still is progressive and liberal and there was
Speaker 1: not a problem. So this week San Francisco, and that's
Speaker 1: that this is part of the issue here is because
Speaker 1: San Francisco was like the queer capital of the United States.
Speaker 1: It always has been, right and said, the San Francisco
Speaker 1: Giants had a bride night and the players were given
Speaker 1: caps to where, you know, giants caps that had a
Speaker 1: rainbow logo, you know, had the Giants logo rendered in
Speaker 1: the progressive rainbow flag, and several of the players wound
Speaker 1: up writing over the logo in silver marker referring to
Speaker 1: a Bible quote about the rainbow covenant with God.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was the genesis whatever quote quote or whatever
Speaker 2: you yeah, about God creating the rainbow as a sign
Speaker 2: of you know whatever.
Speaker 1: Covenant with his people. Which, Okay, this is where we're
Speaker 1: going to get into some stuff. For one, Okay, I
Speaker 1: think those players were obnoxious assholes for doing this.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, But.
Speaker 1: When I read what the verse was, I was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, honestly, honestly, I think their dicks. But that
Speaker 1: could have been way more offensive, Like they could have
Speaker 1: written a verse about man shall not lie with man,
Speaker 1: or about sodom and gomoor or whatever. But it was
Speaker 1: just about trying, as quote a Christian to reclaim the
Speaker 1: rainbow or to you, you know whatever. I think in
Speaker 1: terms of protest, in terms of Christian based protest, they
Speaker 1: could have been a lot worse than what they did.
Speaker 1: I'm not excusing it. I am offended by it. I
Speaker 1: am hurt by it. I am hurt that Major League
Speaker 1: Baseball cannot bring itself to to to welcome a queer
Speaker 1: fan like me.
Speaker 2: I feel bad for the queer people who love sports,
Speaker 2: for example, right because one, because you know, you feel
Speaker 2: like you have no space, no place, uh and and
Speaker 2: it's just and it's it's it's bad. It's horrible. Actually,
Speaker 2: I feel bad for all the for all these people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's a horrible thing. And you know you can't just
Speaker 2: leave it alone. You have to make some sort of
Speaker 2: statement like that that clearly you know you just want
Speaker 2: to offend people. Because that's just to offense.
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not suggesting that what they did was
Speaker 1: an offensive. I'm just saying at least at least they
Speaker 1: they sort of took the path of least resistance and
Speaker 1: just did a relatively inoffensive take on the rainbow. Like
Speaker 1: I said, I lived through the eighties and nineties. The
Speaker 1: rhetoric could have gotten a lot uglier than that. They
Speaker 1: really would have called me an abomination before the Lord
Speaker 1: or whatever. Now.
Speaker 2: Also, I just want to add that it's not just
Speaker 2: these you know, football it's unfolding. Yeah, it's now become
Speaker 2: a thing soccer players in Europe. Here in the United States,
Speaker 2: male and female. My I should dad, you know, just
Speaker 2: not wanting to wear anything pride, you know.
Speaker 1: Because and there was a minor league gave in York,
Speaker 1: PA last night, York, Pennsylvania where the team wound up
Speaker 1: before fitting the game because they refused to wear pride gear.
Speaker 1: So this, this gets into some complicated questions because there
Speaker 1: is a big, big, big, big big part of me
Speaker 1: that does not agree with the idea of forcing people
Speaker 1: to wear pride gear.
Speaker 2: I agree with you.
Speaker 1: That's that's when you start getting into all right, I'm gonna.
Speaker 1: I just feel as queer people and people on the
Speaker 1: left generally, we've never been very good at picking our battles.
Speaker 1: And a prime example of this is the the wedding
Speaker 1: cake battle, right. I remember when that was unfolding and
Speaker 1: suing all these bakers, and I was like, this is
Speaker 1: only going to anger the right wing more and now
Speaker 1: they have a rallying cry, and sure enough they did.
Speaker 1: And that actually, all of those lawsuits and that crazy
Speaker 1: bitch in her corduroy skirts that I can't even remember,
Speaker 1: Kim Davis, she wound up becoming a cause celeb on
Speaker 1: the right and it helped fuel entire political campaigns. And
Speaker 1: for what so that a dozen queer couples could force
Speaker 1: a baker to make them a cake. I don't think
Speaker 1: that was a battle worth fighting. And it became a
Speaker 1: national cause celeb and it has it became a stand
Speaker 1: in for just queer people being demanding and annoying and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. And you see the same
Speaker 1: thing here. Senator Josh Holly came out today. Jd Vance
Speaker 1: came out and made a statement about this. It is
Speaker 1: only going to grow right and I think major league Baseball,
Speaker 1: and I will say Major League Baseball came out and
Speaker 1: denounced the Giants for acting this way and made a
Speaker 1: very firm statement. But again, you were getting into forcing
Speaker 1: people to wear rainbows. I mean, how would we feel
Speaker 1: if people were forced to wear crucifixes, you know, or
Speaker 1: pro life messages or anything like that.
Speaker 2: It's I.
Speaker 1: Don't think this is the path to acceptance. I just don't.
Speaker 1: I think you should have pride nights. Absolutely, you should
Speaker 1: have Pride nights. I think the team and the organization
Speaker 1: should welcome and support any queer people. But forcing team
Speaker 1: members to wear that stuff that really does not sit
Speaker 1: well with me at all.
Speaker 2: I have a problem with forcing people to to wear something,
Speaker 2: especially because they're saying, well, it's a uniform policy, you
Speaker 2: have to wear it. But again, as you said, I
Speaker 2: mean a pro life hat or a Chris effects Christian
Speaker 2: hat or whatever would you wear it? Would you say
Speaker 2: yes to it?
Speaker 1: A star of David anybody? I mean, I realized that
Speaker 1: queerness isn't a religion.
Speaker 2: But I'm actually I I don't look for acceptance anymore.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm always dead. That hasn't happened yet. I yeah,
Speaker 2: I gave up on acceptance. I want tolerance. I want
Speaker 2: you to I want you, motherfucker to accept that I exist,
Speaker 2: that I have the right to exist, and that I
Speaker 2: have that I have the right to live my life
Speaker 2: the way I feel. Saying motherfucker anyway, anyway, it effects
Speaker 2: are rating anyway. My point is that I'm not looking
Speaker 2: for your acceptance. I'm looking I want your tolerance. I
Speaker 2: want you, just always the case, to understand that I
Speaker 2: have the right to live the way I want to
Speaker 2: my life. So back to Friday at Friday Night or
Speaker 2: whatever at a stadium. I accept them to have those events.
Speaker 2: I think they yeah, right up.
Speaker 1: To rainbow, put up the rainbow flag by in my yard.
Speaker 2: But if you play it doesn't want to wear the hat,
Speaker 2: then why he should.
Speaker 1: Not be forced to whatever, Because then what you're doing
Speaker 1: is you're you're forcing situations like this. Yes where listen,
Speaker 1: if those players walked out on the field in basic
Speaker 1: San Francisco Giants gear, without the rainbow and without the
Speaker 1: Bible messages, people would have noticed, but the queer people
Speaker 1: in attendance would not have been hurt or offended by that.
Speaker 1: I think so when you force players to do this,
Speaker 1: they are in response going to become even more offensive
Speaker 1: in their response, and you're hurting queer people.
Speaker 2: That's that's where.
Speaker 1: I stand on this, and I realized that not a
Speaker 1: lot of queer people think that a lot. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm standing sort of in opposition in my community because
Speaker 1: I think the general community line is, well, screw those guys,
Speaker 1: they should wear the rainbow and up. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't really think that's how it works.
Speaker 2: It's complicated because back to the wedding cake thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: you saying, all right, well, we shouldn't force these people
Speaker 2: to bike a cake for us. But at the same time,
Speaker 2: you can't start, you know, adding people to the list
Speaker 2: of people you don't want to bake a kate, you
Speaker 2: know for. So it's complicated because then you're going to add, what,
Speaker 2: I'm not baking a cake for a black person, an
Speaker 2: Asian person or whatever. Then you start adding you know so,
Speaker 2: and so it's complicated. When do you stop with that?
Speaker 2: When do you allow them to do whatever they want
Speaker 2: to do.
Speaker 1: I think you need to weigh the potential for backlashs
Speaker 1: at least somewhat, And again people don't like hearing that.
Speaker 1: But my issue with the left in this country with
Speaker 1: liberals in this country is that they had this fantasy
Speaker 1: of quote unquote winning and all of those people who
Speaker 1: exist in opposition, and let's be clear, are here violent,
Speaker 1: deep opposition to liberalism exists in this country, and it's growing.
Speaker 1: And there's this sense among the left that if we
Speaker 1: just force those people out or whatever, we will win
Speaker 1: and social progress will happen. And No, every time you
Speaker 1: force those forty million people who voted for Trump, they're
Speaker 1: not going away, okay. And my point is not, oh,
Speaker 1: you have to learn to live with them, that's not it,
Speaker 1: but you have to come up with more effective ways
Speaker 1: of countering them. We have a crazy twenty two pound
Speaker 1: cat who is rolling around and now he's starting to
Speaker 1: bite us on this.
Speaker 2: Day, jacking the equipment.
Speaker 1: Anyway, Do you want to wrap this up or do
Speaker 1: you have anything more to say?
Speaker 2: No? I think as I said, I think those events
Speaker 2: should happen. I think Pride Day, Pride night, Pride, whatever, love.
Speaker 1: Yet, dinner bro, the community, they should happen.
Speaker 2: They they in fact, they we should force these those
Speaker 2: I think you should forth their absolutely pole to wear
Speaker 2: something during those events. No, I say no to that
Speaker 2: because I wouldn't be wearing certain hats if I was fortune.
Speaker 1: Like I said, the blowback is now becoming more virulent,
Speaker 1: and you've got the freaking vice president weighing in on this.
Speaker 2: I know you have the Vice president saying, you know,
Speaker 2: Trump one, we don't have to do this anymore. Or
Speaker 2: then you have all these right wing public figures say
Speaker 2: I'll pay all the fines, you know, let them do
Speaker 2: it all right, I'll front the money so that they
Speaker 2: keep their hatreds.
Speaker 1: They're not going to go away because you want them to.
Speaker 1: They're just not. So you have to figure out effective
Speaker 1: ways of countering them and forcing And let's face it,
Speaker 1: I will never forget. My brother's a big Phillies fan
Speaker 1: and he's also gay too, And you know, you love
Speaker 1: your Phillies, you love those boys. And he said, yeah,
Speaker 1: but have those guys voted MAGA And you just know it.
Speaker 2: I know that's the heart.
Speaker 1: That's the hard part of all major Yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: hard part of it, is that you love your boys,
Speaker 1: But then you know they're all millionaires and most of
Speaker 1: them are concernatives.
Speaker 2: Of them gay people.
Speaker 1: So I'm not I don't have illusions about that. But
Speaker 1: I think Major League Baseball as an organization should support
Speaker 1: its queer fans, but they should not expect individual players
Speaker 1: to come out and and they should certainly not force
Speaker 1: those players to show. Yes, well, that's not support. I
Speaker 1: think you're forcing them to wear a rainbow. That's not support, right,
Speaker 1: that's domination.
Speaker 2: I think that's the part that we need to focus
Speaker 2: on money and gave people have money just like anybody else. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so we need to focus on that. Where are we
Speaker 2: spending our money? And these organizations know that we have
Speaker 2: the money to spend and if they don't want to
Speaker 2: support us, then we don't support them. That that I
Speaker 2: believe in. I believe in doing that, fighting these companies,
Speaker 2: organizations and clubs or whatever uh to force them to
Speaker 2: support us. Forcing some jackass who homophobe jack us to
Speaker 2: you know, wear a rainbow and hat. No, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to do that.
Speaker 1: Some guy who only went to Christian College on a scholarship.
Speaker 2: Now, I.
Speaker 1: Never saw black people until he played a major League
Speaker 1: baseball game. And you can't force someone like that. They're
Speaker 1: just gonna, well, come on, that's a description.
Speaker 2: There are anyway, yes.
Speaker 1: Hicks in major League baseball. All right, So let's everyone's
Speaker 1: gonna get mad at me.
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I don't even care.
Speaker 1: I don't care. I'm allowed to be mad at these people.
Speaker 1: All right, So let's take a quick break and we're
Speaker 1: going to come back and talk all about Widow's Bay.
Speaker 1: We're back, and now we're going to spoil the finale
Speaker 1: of Widows Bay, which we have the show. Yeah, we've
Speaker 1: been singing the praises of that show for the past
Speaker 1: couple of podcasts, and like a lot of people, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of sorry we didn't get in on the ground floor.
Speaker 1: I watched the first couple of episodes, but I didn't
Speaker 1: really realize until about the fourth episode, where I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is actually really good, and I kind of wish
Speaker 1: we had started in on the on the beginning. Don't
Speaker 1: you worry, though, because there will be season two, and
Speaker 1: like everybody else who writes about tell or talks about television,
Speaker 1: we will be on board when that happens. This show
Speaker 1: has exploded, and if you haven't watched it, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: my favorite news show of the year, and I will
Speaker 1: admit if you haven't watched it. The first two episodes
Speaker 1: they're cute and quirky, but they don't necessarily it's really
Speaker 1: by the fourth episode, you're like, oh, okay, this is
Speaker 1: super inventive.
Speaker 2: I think you don't know exactly what the show is
Speaker 2: about watching the first and the second, but the writing
Speaker 2: it's hilarious from from day one, from like I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just funny. I love how it exploded. I'm on
Speaker 2: TikTok as you guys knew, and I love watching and
Speaker 2: you know, listening to Matthew Reeves talk about how he
Speaker 2: can't believe how.
Speaker 1: Big the show got. Yeah, and it's just adorable. It's
Speaker 1: just adorable. I think it caught them a little bit
Speaker 1: off far a little so, all right, let's get into
Speaker 1: this final episode, which I was correct, but I will
Speaker 1: also say it was a very common theory online and
Speaker 1: I did not come up with it on my own,
Speaker 1: which is that Ruth, the secretary at city Hall, is
Speaker 1: not the final right Westcott Warren line, and that she
Speaker 1: had a secret baby and that baby was Tom's wife,
Speaker 1: which means Tom's son is the final member of that
Speaker 1: family line, and if they want to break the curse,
Speaker 1: they're going to have to kill Tom's son.
Speaker 2: Well, I would go, well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's actually clever because they
Speaker 1: made that kid so unlikable that you're like, whoa, Oh.
Speaker 2: My god, those three kids, I want to murder them all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're terrible. So let me just say this. I
Speaker 1: thought some of the energy went out of the show
Speaker 1: in these final two episodes, and they weren't quite on
Speaker 1: the level I would have liked for the show. They
Speaker 1: weren't quite as funny as previous episodes, and they weren't
Speaker 1: really all that scary at all. They were just sort
Speaker 1: of mostly just contemplate it. Like it was a lot
Speaker 1: of Tom and Ruth sitting on Ruth's couch, and I mean,
Speaker 1: some of the stuff Kay Callen was saying in those
Speaker 1: scenes was absolutely hilarious. In fact, I think it was
Speaker 1: kind of interesting to get the perspective of someone who
Speaker 1: grew up on a cursed island. You know, so her
Speaker 1: morality is a little off, her view of what life
Speaker 1: is supposed to be like is way off, but she's
Speaker 1: basically a decent, kind person. She just doesn't realize how
Speaker 1: fucked up she is.
Speaker 2: See. I love that, I guess because ever since I
Speaker 2: was a little boy, I used to listen to love
Speaker 2: to listen to my grandparents talk about their lives, and
Speaker 2: you know, their experience and showy pictures. So that whole
Speaker 2: episode I loved. I love I love her telling all
Speaker 2: those stories, showing the stories were weird, but I love it.
Speaker 1: She dated a guy who got bit by an animal
Speaker 1: and he turned into that animal, and uh, it's just
Speaker 1: fascinating and funny and created. They had her unpacked the
Speaker 1: whole trolley problem in a way that actually made a
Speaker 1: certain amount of sense, even though it would not be
Speaker 1: considered the moral choice. But again, I think it's sort
Speaker 1: of unpacked. She's a decent person, but your morality is
Speaker 1: going to be fucked up if you never got to
Speaker 1: leave a cursed island, right, which brings me to I
Speaker 1: don't want this to sound like criticism, but this is
Speaker 1: what has to happen with the story like this. If
Speaker 1: you're not going to do it all in one season,
Speaker 1: if it's going to become a series, it becomes. And
Speaker 1: I think that's what I felt in these final two episodes,
Speaker 1: because you know the previous episodes there they would cycle
Speaker 1: through these various sort of genres of horror. So there
Speaker 1: was like a sea hag, and there was a killer clown,
Speaker 1: and there was what else was there? There was the
Speaker 1: the serial Killer, the you know, the Halloween guy that
Speaker 1: Jason Kay. So they would cycle through all of these
Speaker 1: different things, but now it feels like they have to
Speaker 1: establish lore. And when they got to that bunker or
Speaker 1: whatever the shelter, it felt very lost the series TV
Speaker 1: show Lost, And obviously maybe not, that's not obvious, But
Speaker 1: to me, I thought it was obvious that that was
Speaker 1: a deliberate homage, just like when they were out on
Speaker 1: the boat in the middle of the night, they were
Speaker 1: clearly homage. It was an homage to Jaws. There's homages
Speaker 1: to all kinds of horror films and suspense films and
Speaker 1: everything like that. So you know, you go down into
Speaker 1: this bunker, underground bunker that has secret industrial movies, and
Speaker 1: there's all this weird like signage and everything and voices
Speaker 1: coming over the speaker that is as lost.
Speaker 2: As Lost gets. I thought, what's awesome because we lost? Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I agree.
Speaker 1: I agree with that because also so many shows have
Speaker 1: tried I had to mimic Lost, and they always wound
Speaker 1: up as cheap copies. But if there's any show that
Speaker 1: almost has earned the right to have a couple loss,
Speaker 1: I mean, they are on a cursed island that they
Speaker 1: can't leave. I mean, the comparisons are right there. But
Speaker 1: and again with Ruth sitting there, paging through her and
Speaker 1: just telling stories, and you're getting the sense of this
Speaker 1: island having lore. What happens with that is and it
Speaker 1: happens with all these shows that happened with Lost. The
Speaker 1: lore cannot sustain itself. It cannot hold up. And that's fine,
Speaker 1: because I don't think you should look at Widow's Bay
Speaker 1: the same way you would look at a show like Lost.
Speaker 1: It's a comedy horror show. There's a certain lightness to it.
Speaker 1: There's a certain sense that you shouldn't take it all
Speaker 1: too seriously. But I was sitting there going, Okay, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of elderly people in this community. How come
Speaker 1: nobody really knows anything about this past where they were
Speaker 1: evidently sacrificing people to this creature under the island and
Speaker 1: it was they they shot movies about it, they built
Speaker 1: bunker like obviously it was sort of codified, and it
Speaker 1: was something that people knew about. And those films, they
Speaker 1: can't be more than sixty years old. And you look
Speaker 1: at someone like Ruth, who's like she said she was
Speaker 1: eighty four, Like, well, the other question is I mean,
Speaker 1: like the son Evan, like he literally has never left
Speaker 1: the island, and in seventeen years there's you. I mean,
Speaker 1: how do you explain that?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: How do you explain that? And if everybody on the
Speaker 1: island over a certain age knows this, I guess if
Speaker 1: you try and unpack this too much, they're right off
Speaker 1: the coast of Massachusetts. And you mean to tell me
Speaker 1: there's a whole community of people who cannot leave that island, right,
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be known or understood? I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: a three hundred year old community. You don't like any
Speaker 1: of this, I could tell you're getting antsy with it.
Speaker 2: It's just that it's trying to make sense out of
Speaker 2: something that doesn't have much sense.
Speaker 1: Doesn't make money. If they're going forward, they are going
Speaker 1: to have to I mean they are. That's clearly where
Speaker 1: it's moving towards us that they're going. In fact, Katie Dippold,
Speaker 1: who is the creator of the show, she said, what
Speaker 1: I love is that it's and actually I don't disagree
Speaker 1: with this. She said, it's creating like this whole mythology
Speaker 1: that we can explore. She said, I'd love to do
Speaker 1: a mini series just about whatever happened in that inn
Speaker 1: or whoever ugly wore tense is. I mean, they have
Speaker 1: established that there's a deep lore here, even if they
Speaker 1: haven't unpacked it all that much. And now they as
Speaker 1: they unpack it, they're going to come up, you know,
Speaker 1: they're going to face the issue of how do you
Speaker 1: make it all makes.
Speaker 2: Maybe we'll have more episodes like the Betty Gopin one.
Speaker 2: I'm hoping that they, you know, they go back and
Speaker 2: talk about whatever happened in the past on the island, right,
Speaker 2: they have time now.
Speaker 1: To Yeah, I mean there's a lot that they can unpack.
Speaker 1: What else, what do you I just want to say.
Speaker 1: One of the things I do want to say, Jeff
Speaker 1: Hiller I said last week that they're not giving that
Speaker 1: guy something to do. And I laughed so hard at
Speaker 1: his freak out. It was just so well delivered and
Speaker 1: the timing and it was so good.
Speaker 2: He's funny.
Speaker 1: He is funny. I I don't know. I was surprised
Speaker 1: that the sheriff tried to kill Ruth. I actually thought
Speaker 1: it was going to be wick.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, makes sense, I thought made sense.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's desperate to save his child. I wonder
Speaker 1: where that's I kind of thought like the episode was
Speaker 1: going to end with like him getting his wife on
Speaker 1: a boat and just speeding off the island the next morning.
Speaker 2: I just, I just I love the silliness of it,
Speaker 2: like I do too, Like when he gives her a
Speaker 2: tea with medication, like if she's the one, she's not
Speaker 2: gonna die. So it was funny because you think she
Speaker 2: she's dead and this.
Speaker 1: She wakes up by now she wakes up.
Speaker 2: And it's just hilarious. Yeah, it's just funny, funny, funny.
Speaker 2: And I didn't make the connection that people were making
Speaker 2: it online obviously that when the captain died or whatever,
Speaker 2: that guy died, then she's the one now with the
Speaker 2: you know that's going to live forever, right, Ruth is
Speaker 2: gonna he kind of passed on to her. The whole
Speaker 2: mortality thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know that that well, yeah, because other family members,
Speaker 1: I mean, he had three hundred years of decebit. None
Speaker 1: of those people were I guess immortal.
Speaker 2: I don't think.
Speaker 1: I don't think his immortality is being granted to anyone.
Speaker 2: Well, she didn't die with with anything, that's true, but
Speaker 2: I mean she was shot and didn't die. You know,
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: That's just he could be right. I mean, I've never
Speaker 1: heard this theory, but again, it wouldn't make sense because
Speaker 1: uh oh, I see what you're saying now that he's dead.
Speaker 2: She bested on to her the whole immortality thing because
Speaker 2: you can see, like she goes up the stairs very quick,
Speaker 2: and she says, she's doing all these things now, and
Speaker 2: if you and if you.
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good theory. I didn't think that.
Speaker 2: And if you remember the first episode, she's this old
Speaker 2: lady who can't remember anything, and now she can remember everything.
Speaker 2: She can go up and down the stairs, she helps
Speaker 2: the neighbor. You know.
Speaker 1: Like the interesting thing about this is I really thought
Speaker 1: they were gonna kill Ruth Off because kay Callen is
Speaker 1: ninety years old and it takes like three years to
Speaker 1: do these seasons, and are they really relying on her
Speaker 1: living to then? I mean, I hate to be morbid
Speaker 1: about it, but come on, yeah, anyway, I think that's
Speaker 1: that's an interesting take.
Speaker 2: I think she carries the whole immortality on.
Speaker 1: Kay Callen being hale and hardy to shoot another season
Speaker 1: of this show. And that's the other thing. They have
Speaker 1: been greenlit for a second season. But I really hope
Speaker 1: they don't do the Apple TV thing where we have
Speaker 1: to wait three seasons for this.
Speaker 2: Still now, like that the other show I forget the name.
Speaker 1: Yeah, plor of Us. I mean that show ended like
Speaker 1: six eight months ago, and you know they're halfway through
Speaker 1: writing the second seat.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, come on, you forget about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the House of the Dragon comes back this weekend,
Speaker 1: and I am going to have to go back. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have a general sense of where it ended, but
Speaker 1: it's these long ass seasons just.
Speaker 2: You have to go back towatch the whole thing. And yeah,
Speaker 2: I hope not. I hope they don't wait that.
Speaker 1: My one request for the next season is to bring
Speaker 1: Betty Gilbin back in the present day as the descendant
Speaker 1: of Sarah Westcott Warrant. That would be awesome. I mean,
Speaker 1: just make her a series regular. I want to see
Speaker 1: her dealing with Patricia. I want to see her dealing
Speaker 1: with Rosemary. Tom needs a love interest. She would be perfect.
Speaker 1: She would be absolutely perfect. And if you're not going
Speaker 1: to do that, at least do more flashbacks with her.
Speaker 2: But Patricia, my god.
Speaker 1: Trician, Rosemary, they are just the MVP.
Speaker 2: I know, I want to go back and watch everything again.
Speaker 2: Just pay attention to her.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anything else anymore theories?
Speaker 2: Now? I hate the kids and what them all did.
Speaker 2: It was. It's interesting that the guy died in a basement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they caused his death because they were such assholes.
Speaker 1: I guess you could say, Look, if you're sixteen years
Speaker 1: old and you've never left that island, yeah, you're going
Speaker 1: to be kind of an asshole, a reckless asshole.
Speaker 2: They are, all of them, that's three of them. What else?
Speaker 2: I think that that it was just interesting.
Speaker 1: Great cast, really really smart writing, really clever idea, and
Speaker 1: it's funny when it needs to be funny and scary
Speaker 1: when it needs to be scary, and that combination is
Speaker 1: just not easy to pull off. Otherwise we see it
Speaker 1: more often.
Speaker 2: That's it. Yeah, I just think the writing is very
Speaker 2: clever and funny and kind of you know, I hate
Speaker 2: to put it this way, but kind of real. You know,
Speaker 2: like the situations like you you see someone going through
Speaker 2: the things they go through, right, if that happened to you,
Speaker 2: if that situation happened to you.
Speaker 1: What happened to those bitches that I know?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: When they're all dead, don't they are like that, that
Speaker 1: is something about the show, and I realized they're packing
Speaker 1: all this stuff into it and they don't have time
Speaker 1: to let people react to things. But well, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so Patricia was stalked by the Boogeyman and people knew
Speaker 1: about it and it was confirmed and he was cremated
Speaker 1: and nobody reacted to that, like, there's no follow up
Speaker 1: on that. I thought some of those women were going
Speaker 1: to be in the in the bunker or something, but
Speaker 1: they just weren't. I don't think he killed them, and
Speaker 1: nobody said anything about them getting killed.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we don't know, we have.
Speaker 1: It happened lots of loose ends, but that's why you
Speaker 1: come back for another season, and that just means they
Speaker 1: did a good job setting up their first season.
Speaker 2: So I love the show. I am. I'm going to
Speaker 2: watch it.
Speaker 1: Again enticed, and I really really hope it's back before
Speaker 1: I'm eighty years old, before I look like Ruth. All right,
Speaker 1: so that's it for this week. We'll be back next
Speaker 1: week with whatever crosses our eyes or crosses our desks.
Speaker 1: Until then, take care of yourselves, love you mean it,
Speaker 1: but bye bye,