WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.439 Oh gee is folks, it should die. People say good 2 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:11.720 money to see this movie. When they go out to 3 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:15.960 a theater, they want cold sodas, hot popcorn in no monsters. 4 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:19.199 In the Projection Booth, everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 5 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:20.879 Got it off? 6 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:42.560 Hey, folks, Welcome to a special episode of The Projection Booth. 7 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:44.640 I'm your host, Mike Waite. On this episode, I'm talking 8 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:48.520 with Catherine cold Iron. We spoke with her a little 9 00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:52.880 while ago about her book Junk Film Why Bad Movies Matter. 10 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:57.039 She is back talking about her latest book, out There 11 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:00.560 in the Dark. It is a very interesting mix of 12 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:05.439 personal essays with film criticism, and I highly recommend it. 13 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:09.040 Make sure you follow Katherine over on the socials. Those 14 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:13.239 are all available at our website Kcoldron dot com spelled 15 00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:18.040 just like it sounds letter k Coldron dot com. Thanks 16 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:20.159 so much for listening, and I hope you enjoyed the interview. 17 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:23.079 Catherine is great having you back on the show again. 18 00:01:23.120 --> 00:01:24.959 I'm so excited to talk to you about your new book. 19 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:28.079 Thank you. I'm excited to hear what you thought of it. 20 00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:32.799 It's great. I was just talking with someone recently, de 21 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:37.159 Harlan Wilson, about his latest book, which really does that 22 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:41.719 thing of mixing more of personal with film studies, and 23 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:45.040 I love how you're coming at things as well. How 24 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.599 did you decide how you're going to write this book 25 00:01:47.599 --> 00:01:49.799 and the way that these essays were going to be shaped. 26 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:54.280 I was in grad school and we read the book 27 00:01:54.400 --> 00:01:58.319 I Am Not Jackson Pollock by John Haskell, and Haskell 28 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:03.239 does this thing where he invents scenes in between the 29 00:02:03.280 --> 00:02:07.719 scenes of psycho and touch of evil, and as soon 30 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:09.199 as I read that, I went, I didn't know you 31 00:02:09.240 --> 00:02:11.639 could do that. I want to do that. That was 32 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:14.039 the beginning of it, was thinking, Okay, what can I 33 00:02:14.039 --> 00:02:19.240 imagine around some films that I love that is not 34 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:23.479 real but interesting to think about. And at the time 35 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:27.000 I was already writing hybrid work in terms of like 36 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:29.599 metatextual short stories and stuff. A lot of them were 37 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:35.639 really terrible. But when I started combining memoir with some 38 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:38.319 film or other, when I crashed those things together, the 39 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:40.919 sparks that came out of it were really great. 40 00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:44.879 Some of the stories get really personal. Was there any 41 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:47.199 fear in that or was it more of a liberating 42 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:48.439 thing to write about stuff? 43 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:52.159 It wasn't liberating. It was very normal because I'm not 44 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:56.840 at all a private person, and to tell stuff like 45 00:02:56.879 --> 00:02:59.319 this to the public at large was something I wasn't 46 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:02.759 really worried about at the time. Some of the stuff 47 00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:05.400 that I wrote about I had to think about pretty hard. 48 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.120 Some of it was already there, and it was just 49 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:13.199 unburdening ideas and memories that I had for a long time, 50 00:03:13.800 --> 00:03:16.319 and a lot of it was just stuff that itched 51 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.680 at me and I couldn't figure out how to resolve 52 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.280 it for myself. In my own mind. There's one that 53 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:25.000 I still haven't written that's about the Shining, and there 54 00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:28.960 are memories about something in my life that I haven't 55 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.960 quite managed to bring up enough to write that essay. 56 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:34.759 I know what I want to say, but I don't 57 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:37.479 one hundred percent know what to braid it with in 58 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.759 terms of my own life. A lot of nonfiction writers 59 00:03:40.759 --> 00:03:44.599 say that writing is a lot like therapy, and I 60 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:48.520 think that therapy has helped me be a writer, and 61 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:50.680 I think that being a writer has helped me to 62 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.840 be a person. But I don't think of writing as 63 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.599 exactly a therapeutic practice. A lot of people do, though. 64 00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:59.000 Did the movies come first and then the rest of 65 00:03:59.039 --> 00:03:59.680 it comes later? 66 00:04:00.280 --> 00:04:02.520 It varies. The other thing is I wrote these a 67 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:05.680 really long time ago, Like I spent six years or 68 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:11.159 so trying to get this published when writing braided narratives 69 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:16.439 and experimental memoi criticism was very new to me, And 70 00:04:16.959 --> 00:04:18.800 now it just feels like it's been hanging around for 71 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:21.199 so long that I don't even remember the craft of it. 72 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:24.439 What was it like going back and revisiting these after 73 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:25.680 so many years. 74 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:28.920 I was very satisfied with what I'd written, and I 75 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.680 had worked hard enough on them at the time that 76 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:33.959 it wasn't like I went back and said, Oh, I'm 77 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:36.000 embarrassed or oh I need to fix this. It was 78 00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:39.800 just all there, all of a piece from the work 79 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:42.639 that I had done and redone and worked on. And 80 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:44.480 it also wasn't like I was going back to it. It 81 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.560 was more as if I was submitting it to a 82 00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:49.839 press and waiting six months, and then in that six 83 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:51.720 months I would send it to a couple other presses, 84 00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:55.040 and so it was this rolling period of no, no 85 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:56.759 one wants this, no one wants this, And so it 86 00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:59.160 was always on my mind as I was publishing other 87 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.279 things and writing other things, rather than something that I 88 00:05:02.399 --> 00:05:04.000 put down and then picked up again. Later. 89 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:07.160 Okay, Yeah, I was wondering because for me, if I 90 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.639 write something and I do put it down and come 91 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:12.399 back later, sometimes it feels like another person wrote it. 92 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:16.879 I found a draft of a novel that I wrote 93 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:21.439 many years ago and abandoned that I'm using as paper, 94 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:23.800 like I'm using the other side of those pages in 95 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:25.920 my printer, and so every time it comes up out 96 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:28.480 of the printer, I see this back page of page 97 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:30.279 two hundred and sixteen of this novel, and I'm like, 98 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:33.160 I don't remember this at all. I remember the vague 99 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:36.040 outline of it, and I remember writing it, and I 100 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:37.839 remember how I felt when it was over. But I'm 101 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:41.120 looking at the individual pages and I'm like, what when 102 00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:41.959 did I write that? 103 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:45.959 Like a modern palumpest, I'll just use this other book 104 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.160 to print my new stuff out on I love it. 105 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:49.480 I do that a lot. 106 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.040 So you're writing other things while you're shipping this out 107 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.160 and seeing if anybody's going to bite. What other things 108 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:56.560 are you writing at the same time. 109 00:05:57.240 --> 00:06:00.319 I finished this book in I think twenty eight eighteen, 110 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:04.160 and between twenty eighteen and twenty twenty five, I wrote 111 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.439 junk film, and I wrote a couple of the stories 112 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:12.319 that are in Wire Mothers, and I published ceremonials in 113 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.720 Junk Film and Wire Mothers, and I was also working 114 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:20.240 on Last year, I finished a novel that I don't 115 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:22.600 know if it's ever going to work out, but I 116 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.040 had been writing that for the last couple of years, 117 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.199 so mostly during the pandemic is when I wrote that book. 118 00:06:28.759 --> 00:06:30.399 A lot of this stuff hasn't seen the light of 119 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.199 day yet, but some of it has in fact been 120 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:34.720 published in between. 121 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:36.759 Are you just writing all the time? 122 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:40.040 No, I have long, long, fallow periods, and then I'll 123 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:42.199 write like crazy for a couple of months at a time. 124 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.160 Have you figured out what triggers you to get back 125 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:45.480 to it? 126 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.879 Oh, my gosh, I've been writing since I was a kid, 127 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:52.480 like a ten year old kid. So I wish I knew, 128 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:55.879 because then I would just trigger it a bunch, like okay, 129 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:57.680 it's it's just right all the time. 130 00:06:58.279 --> 00:06:59.759 Yeah, I figured you could patent that if you knew 131 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:01.800 what it was was. So tell me a little bit 132 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.319 about some of the films that you chose to write 133 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:08.079 about with your other stories. Were there particular things that 134 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:10.439 were like, oh, this is just a favorite, or this 135 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:14.000 holds personal memories to me, Obviously the title of the book, 136 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:16.800 out There in the Dark, as a reference to Sunset Boulevard. 137 00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:19.879 Is that a favorite? Like how does that play into things? 138 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:23.879 That is a favorite? And it's a movie that I 139 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:29.680 feel talks about celebrity in a way that not a 140 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.800 lot of movies do, and star studies has always been 141 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:35.879 one of the primary things that I'm interested in terms 142 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:39.879 of film, and so Sunset Boulevard is great with that. 143 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:43.680 It's great at talking about the faded glory of celebrities 144 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:48.800 and then by implication, the still existing glory of celebrities 145 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:52.639 you haven't faded away as Norman Desmond has. But it 146 00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:55.839 also talks about what it's like on that side of 147 00:07:55.839 --> 00:07:57.720 the screen and what it's like on this side of 148 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:00.920 the screen with the audience. Is the point of the title, 149 00:08:01.079 --> 00:08:03.759 I am right here, out here in the dark. That's 150 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:06.120 certainly part of it, Like me being an audience member 151 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:10.079 is a through line for the book. The specific movies 152 00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:12.720 that I picked, I think all of them are good 153 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:16.759 except for Alien from La, and most of them are 154 00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.319 well known except for Alien from La. Singing in the 155 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.560 Rain seemed kind of a natural to talk about my 156 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:25.720 teeth because singing in the Rain is one of those 157 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.240 movies that is so beloved and rightly so, but it's 158 00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:33.600 also super, super artificial, and there's no way to get 159 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:37.559 around that. And thinking about those two things being true 160 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:39.919 at the same time was really interesting for me because 161 00:08:40.159 --> 00:08:43.480 I'm so wrapped up with authenticity. Apocalypse Now was the 162 00:08:43.480 --> 00:08:46.200 war movie that I wanted to write about above Platoon, 163 00:08:46.679 --> 00:08:51.519 because I think Apocalypse Now is weirder, and I thought 164 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:54.480 about writing about Platoon, but Platoon is so hard, it's 165 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.720 so difficult to watch, and Apocalypse Now is a lot 166 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:01.039 more watchable. I picked the movie because I knew I 167 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:04.039 wanted to write about them, but I didn't pick them 168 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:07.279 without thought about what other ones I could have written about. 169 00:09:07.759 --> 00:09:10.759 Yeah, the story of your teeth was absolutely fascinating to me, 170 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.279 and it's something like I never really thought about. But 171 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:15.440 they're with you all the time and you have to 172 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:17.679 take care of them and maybe they'll take care of you. 173 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.679 So Yeah, that was tripped down a rabbit hole I 174 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:22.320 didn't know that I needed in my life. 175 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:25.399 Oh, thank you for saying that. Yeah, people have talked 176 00:09:25.399 --> 00:09:28.279 to me a lot about that essay, like either you've 177 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:31.399 never thought about it, or you have tooth trauma. The 178 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:36.399 conversation about dental trauma is huge and it's ongoing, but 179 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:40.159 it's very much buried underground because we're Americans and our 180 00:09:40.200 --> 00:09:43.039 teeth have to be perfect, no matter what the costs. 181 00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:46.200 Who ended up biting when it came to pudding. 182 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:50.279 This out Autofocus is the press that finally said yes, 183 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.840 and I am so grateful to them. It is a 184 00:09:52.919 --> 00:09:55.919 small press that was in Florida, now based in Pennsylvania, 185 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.840 and it's pretty much just this one guy, Michael Wheatness 186 00:09:59.919 --> 00:10:03.000 is and I told him when he said he was 187 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:05.879 interested in the book, I said, okay, before we go 188 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:09.200 any further, you should know that I'm a monster and 189 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:12.559 I don't like to be edited at all. I'm a 190 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:16.840 professional copy editor, so my copy's pretty clean, but in 191 00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.639 terms of editorial suggestions, like I wouldn't go down that 192 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:23.679 road if I were you, just objectively, I am a 193 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.080 bad person if someone tries to edit me. And he 194 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:30.480 said that was okay. He found two typos and that 195 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:31.120 was that. 196 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:31.840 Wow. 197 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.279 So that's the story of the book, and I'm so 198 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:38.360 grateful to him. I should also say, though Santa fe 199 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.320 Writer's project flirted with the book for a little bit 200 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:44.440 and gave me the idea to write an author's note, 201 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:46.960 and I think the book would have been a lot 202 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:51.320 less understandable to audiences if I hadn't added that author's note, 203 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:54.480 So I'm very grateful for that rejection. I couldn't make 204 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:56.759 up my mind whether to put like a disclaimer upfront, 205 00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:59.600 saying I don't actually know anything about Robert Tavall or 206 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:03.559 whether Fred Astaire and Wie Reynolds met on the set 207 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.039 of Singing in the Rain. I don't know any of this, 208 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.840 but I thought it was fairly obvious that I'm not 209 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:10.639 inside Robert Duvall's hit. No. 210 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:13.320 Your authors No definitely helped that with that, and by 211 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.440 that point in the book, I was used to where 212 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.639 you're going with things, so I could understand it by 213 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.279 that point. So, yeah, you do a really good job 214 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:24.440 when it comes to the actual structure of the stories 215 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:29.000 and walking us through almost like you're upping the stakes 216 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:30.120 with each essay. 217 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.600 One of the most important things I learned in grad 218 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:35.720 school was that a story teaches you how to read it, 219 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:38.759 and that's true for I think all narrative art. If 220 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:41.440 you walk into a movie and it gives you these 221 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:43.960 cues of okay, this is a horror movie. This is 222 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:47.320 a Western and to put those fine posts in is 223 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:50.840 so important and to leave them out is just going 224 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:52.039 to make your work unreadable. 225 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:54.039 Did you do the layout of the book? 226 00:11:54.559 --> 00:11:58.120 No, that's something I'm not skilled at the layout of 227 00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:02.960 the more unusual as the one where the text is 228 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:07.679 offset in certain places. I did make suggestions for that, 229 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.000 because you can only do so much in Microsoft Word. 230 00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:13.039 And then Michael took it to in Design and brought 231 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:14.720 it back and was like, is this okay? Yeah, this 232 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:18.200 is fine. My admonition was like, do your best. I 233 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.000 know that in Design is not a perfect program, so 234 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:23.519 whatever you can do to make it work is good. 235 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.200 What were some of the biggest challenges with this other 236 00:12:26.240 --> 00:12:28.159 than just getting the damn thing published? 237 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.960 Honestly, getting damn thing published was a big challenge. One 238 00:12:32.000 --> 00:12:36.159 of the challenges was trying to figure out when I 239 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:37.960 was saying too much and when I was saying too 240 00:12:38.000 --> 00:12:43.240 little about basic background of movies. Do I give you 241 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:48.120 enough information about who the stars of the Misfits are 242 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.440 before I start to explain that their movie Startum is 243 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.279 actually a liability in that film? Did I explain terminology 244 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:03.159 of horsemanship enough in that essay to get you to 245 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.639 figure out where we are and what we're doing with horses. 246 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.159 And so I did have some help from friends who 247 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:10.879 I'd send it to them and be like, is this 248 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:15.240 at all comprehensible? Do you have an idea of how 249 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:19.480 interesting and odd Montgomery Cliff is in this movie? And 250 00:13:19.799 --> 00:13:22.440 so that was a challenge. I was really thankful to 251 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:27.320 readers for giving me that feedback. Another one was trying 252 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:29.960 to figure out when I had gone too far into 253 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:33.559 my own brain, whether that was in terms of the 254 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:36.320 film criit that's in there or the memoir that's in there, 255 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:39.759 and I know how it was, and if I can't 256 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.559 convey it on the page, then I have failed, And 257 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:47.360 success in that mode is really important to me, so 258 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:49.960 wanted to make sure that I did that. 259 00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:52.159 I have to say The Misfits is on my list 260 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:53.840 of shame. I still have yet to see it, but 261 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:55.759 your essay definitely made me want to. 262 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:59.159 So I've talked to people who really like The Misfits. 263 00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:02.320 I've even talk to people who it's their favorite movie 264 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:06.919 and I don't understand. But I also approach that very 265 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.200 carefully because I don't like I don't want to yuck anyone. ZM. 266 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:11.679 And that's not the point of it. I think it's 267 00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:13.639 a failed movie, but I think the way that it's 268 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:17.200 failed is more interesting than I am just covering it 269 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.320 with shame. That's not what I want to do. 270 00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.559 Sometimes that's the most fascinating thing, Like why is this 271 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.440 movie a failure? What happened along the way to damage it? 272 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.279 I think we've talked about that a previe iFly, and 273 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.159 it is one of the engines of junk film. It's 274 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:36.399 what is it in this movie that's so interesting despite 275 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:39.720 it not working at all? Yeah, it's a mystery. My 276 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:42.960 favorite example actually is Skycaptain in the World of Tomorrow, 277 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.200 which is the first movie that I saw that I 278 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:49.440 was like, this is a failure, but it's an interesting failure. 279 00:14:49.960 --> 00:14:52.120 And when it was over, my husband and I looked 280 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:53.840 at each other and we were like, what the heck, Like, 281 00:14:53.919 --> 00:14:57.759 why wasn't that better? Yeah? That movie, to me, it's 282 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.320 not a success and it's a mystery. 283 00:15:01.840 --> 00:15:04.120 So funny that you say that. I literally just got 284 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:07.279 that two days ago from Diabolic DVD because I'm like, 285 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:09.519 I haven't seen this in forever, but I really want 286 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.559 to dig into why this movie is so terrible, because, 287 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.200 like you, I was like, what's wrong was it that 288 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:21.159 it was all computer generated? Bringing back Laurence Olivier was 289 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:26.200 pretty audacious, especially at the time. Yeah, it's a fascinating failure. 290 00:15:26.679 --> 00:15:28.960 Tell me if you think this is it, I think 291 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:33.240 that it is trying to do a genre that is expired. 292 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:35.919 There aren't many of these. I think about Flash Gordon 293 00:15:36.000 --> 00:15:40.080 a lot, like sort of corny, cheesy sci fi adventure 294 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:43.759 cereal that the world has moved on from that genre. 295 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:46.559 It has evolved that genre until it's something else, and 296 00:15:46.600 --> 00:15:49.399 trying to do it exactly the way it was at 297 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:52.399 the time that it was created just won't work anymore. 298 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:55.360 And that's what I think is wrong with Sky Captain. 299 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:56.480 But I'm not sure. 300 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:01.519 It's almost like if the Rocketeers sucked. There reminds me 301 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.320 a lot of what was that one? Where was the 302 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:09.080 Nazis on the Moon movie? Iron Sky? I think it 303 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.840 was called, and that was also I know this is 304 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:15.399 a horrible term, but it was so computer generated. It 305 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.480 just felt like everybody lived inside of a computer, inside 306 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.559 of a Sky Captain. And there are other films kind 307 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:25.200 of like some of oh god, what is that guy's name? 308 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:28.879 Zack Snyder's films like Sucker Punch. It reminded me a 309 00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:29.320 lot of that. 310 00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:31.559 I'm a defender of Sucker Punch. 311 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.000 I have the Blu Ray. That's another one though, where 312 00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:37.120 I'm just like, why is this the way it is? 313 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:40.879 And then to compare the director's cut versus the theatrical cut, 314 00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.000 It's another one of those fascinating movies for me. 315 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:46.000 I'm going to shut up because we could talk for 316 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:48.320 another two hours about Sucker Punch and Zack Snyder. We 317 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:51.120 were talking about Zack Snyder earlier today because we went 318 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:55.200 and saw Superman on Monday. The way people are talking 319 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:59.480 about this Superman versus Zack Snyder Superman kind of bothers 320 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:04.480 me because it's like, the cynical part of me is okay, 321 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:06.839 so you just don't want nuance is really the thing. 322 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.759 American audiences want something that's not in shades of gray. 323 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:13.400 They want something that is the good guy punching the 324 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:16.359 bad guy full stop. I understand that we're in a 325 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.480 national moment where that feels a lot better, but also, 326 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.000 these kids today can't deal with the shades of gray, 327 00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:27.680 and that's a bummer. I'll be dead in the cold 328 00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:29.599 ground before I recognize Missuri. 329 00:17:29.880 --> 00:17:32.079 What is all the sticky notes behind you. 330 00:17:32.759 --> 00:17:35.119 This is the timeline for the book that I'm writing now, 331 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:39.640 because I'm writing a book about a Hollywood death in 332 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:43.160 nineteen thirty two, and so I'm using real people in 333 00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:45.799 real events, and there's a bunch of stuff that I 334 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:47.839 need to keep in mind as i'm writing. So that's 335 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:50.920 what that is. It's hundreds and hundreds of different events 336 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:52.759 that occurred in the lives of these different people. 337 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.759 Oh wow, is it fictionalized or pure nonfiction? 338 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:59.599 No, it's fictionalized. I'm writing from the perspective of three 339 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.039 dead people, so you know, I have to imagine what 340 00:18:03.079 --> 00:18:06.680 their thoughts were. But it's about the death of Paul Byrne, 341 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:10.599 who was a producer in early Hollywood. He married Jean 342 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:12.960 Harlowe in nineteen thirty two, and two months later he 343 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:16.559 was dead. And when I was learning about this, I 344 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.160 realized that three of the people in his life who 345 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:23.000 were closest to him, his friend Jack Gilbert, his boss 346 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.519 Irving Thalberg, and his wife Jean Harlowe, were all dead 347 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.799 before the age of forty by nineteen thirty eight. That's 348 00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.200 not suspicious, but it is interesting because it means that 349 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.759 we'll never really know what happened to him. Everybody who 350 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.839 knows is dead, and what happened to him was the 351 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.519 studio said that he committed suicide, but he probably didn't. 352 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:46.000 So who killed him? Why? And the answers to those 353 00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:49.440 questions are really interesting. So I'm writing a book about it. 354 00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:51.079 It's a book about the unknowable. 355 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:55.200 Basically, have you done anything that audacious before? That seems 356 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:56.319 like a great project. 357 00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:59.680 Thank you for saying that. Actually, yes, my last novel 358 00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:03.880 was even more ambitious, but this one is. Yeah. I'm 359 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.240 really excited about this project, and I'm really looking forward 360 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:10.960 to being done writing about Irving because I don't like him, 361 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.640 and it's very hard to get in his head because 362 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.400 I just don't. I don't think he's a good guy. 363 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:17.480 Is your last one out? Are reading? Or are we 364 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:18.480 still waiting for that one? 365 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.640 No? The last one is very unlikely to be published. 366 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:25.720 It is a book that I wrote based on the 367 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:29.480 movie Casablanca. I wanted to write the story of Ilsa 368 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:32.359 because I felt that she was underserved as a character 369 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:36.440 in the movie, and so I wrote this novel that 370 00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:40.680 spans a bunch of European cities from nineteen thirty six 371 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:44.200 to nineteen forty one which, as you may imagine, involved 372 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:46.559 an awful lot of research into a very turbulent time. 373 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.160 And so like I went to Norway, I went to Sweden. 374 00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:52.920 I did all this different stuff. I learned about fashion, 375 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.119 I learned about war, I learned about the Holocaust. It 376 00:19:55.160 --> 00:19:58.880 was like two years of work. And I need Warner 377 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.240 Brothers permission to even pitch the book because they own 378 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:06.000 the characters. And no one that I have spoken to 379 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:08.039 who could help me with this is interested. 380 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.480 Maybe her name is actually Milsa. 381 00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:14.559 Other people have suggested that, but I feel like I 382 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.759 lose a huge sales hook if I don't stick with 383 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:20.640 the characters. If you're going to leave this part in, 384 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.119 and if any agents are interested, who want to go 385 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.039 toe to toe with Warner Brothers on a legal issue, 386 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:28.039 which I'm sure there's lots of them out there. I 387 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:30.240 think it's a great book. I have showed it to 388 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:32.480 people who have thought it's a great book, but it's 389 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.119 there's nothing I can do in the indie world with it. 390 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:38.079 Somebody did it in nineteen ninety eight. It was a 391 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:40.160 guy who wrote this book called As Time Goes By, 392 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:44.160 which is basically a spy thriller and in terms of feminism, 393 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.240 the exact opposite of what I was trying to do, 394 00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:50.559 but that was published by Warner Books, which no longer exists. 395 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:53.359 Yeah books, Who needs them anymore? Right? 396 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.440 Yeah? No, certainly not, David Zaslav. 397 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:58.759 So what other projects are you working on? Because you 398 00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:01.680 always have such fascinating things you're doing. It seems like 399 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:04.519 the Thalberg thing, but just keep you busy, night and day. 400 00:21:05.240 --> 00:21:08.079 I've written about two thirds of it, so once I 401 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:10.119