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See website for. 24 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.879 You are now listening to true Murder, The most shocking 25 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:14.959 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:22.319 written about them. Gasey Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 27 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.079 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:30.359 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:33.519 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:46.879 Good evening. On a cold morning in December nineteen sixty, 31 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.359 sixty year old Laura Munch was found strangled behind the 32 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:53.319 house in downtown Erie, at a time when the gem 33 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:56.359 city was at its peak, including a triumphant run for 34 00:01:56.439 --> 00:02:01.159 the coveted All American City Award. The murder created a pandemonium. 35 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:05.200 As the investigation progressed, attacks on women in and around 36 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:09.360 the city of Erie continued, sending citizens and seasoned investigators 37 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:13.360 to the brink of total chaos. Infamous attacks such as 38 00:02:13.400 --> 00:02:16.599 the brutal stabbing of seventy two year old Clara Kerrigg, 39 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:19.800 the attempted strangling and knifing of Helen Nost, and the 40 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.800 strangling murders of Mary Lynn Crotty and Eleanor Free caused 41 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.759 women to lock their doors and avoid the streets at night. 42 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.439 The arrest of truck driver John Howard Willman in September 43 00:02:30.520 --> 00:02:33.240 nineteen sixty three. Was not the end of the story, 44 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:37.879 as soon the case attracted nationwide attention, including a lawsuit 45 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:43.199 by the ACLU. Just who was Erie's infamous backyard strangler 46 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:47.360 with a technicality by police caused the suspected murderer to 47 00:02:47.479 --> 00:02:51.879 roam free again to kill more victims. Offer Justin Dombrowski 48 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:57.479 charts the herowing, attacks, investigations, and mystery involving Erie's nineteen 49 00:02:57.560 --> 00:03:00.120 sixties reign of terror. The book they were feature in 50 00:03:00.159 --> 00:03:04.520 this evening is Eries Backyard Strangler Pair in the Sixties 51 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:08.680 with my special guest, historian and author Justin Dombrowski. Welcome 52 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:10.919 to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. 53 00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:14.039 Justin Dombrowski, thank you for having me, Thank you so much, 54 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:16.879 and congratulations on this extraordinary book. 55 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:17.719 Thank you very much. 56 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:22.280 Now, immediately following your first book for History Press, Murder 57 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.039 and Mayhem in Erie, Pennsylvania, you were in discussions with 58 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:27.840 History Press about your next project. 59 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:30.879 Well, first and foremost, I am a native of Erie, Pennsylvania. 60 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:34.840 I've studied local history, specializing more so, i'd say, in 61 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.759 true crime and criminal records here in the Erie area. 62 00:03:37.879 --> 00:03:41.400 For just over fifteen years, I did obtain a degree 63 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:44.680 from Merciers University and also worked as an interim the 64 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:48.439 Erie County Detectives Unit, specializing in various different sorts of cases. 65 00:03:48.680 --> 00:03:51.439 So I would say that kind of background led me 66 00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:54.520 a little bit to creative explore the different areas of 67 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.360 crime that have occurred in Eries history. Kind of brought 68 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:00.000 me to the forefront of doing research, not only your 69 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:03.240 research over the last few years, but also compiling what 70 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:06.280 was my first book, Murder, Mayhem and Erie Pennsylvania, which 71 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.120 is through History Press, and then once that was actually 72 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:13.919 released last summer, received great feedback at somewell in sales, 73 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:18.279 and following that, in speaking with my managing editor from 74 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:20.959 my History Press, we decided the next story we would 75 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.120 do would be a standalone through crime book, which kind 76 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:27.480 of led us into Eerie's backyard. Strengthler coming into fruition. 77 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:29.879 And you say that these are the crimes that included 78 00:04:29.959 --> 00:04:34.680 from Erie Pennsylvania from fall nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty four. 79 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:39.879 Let's talk about Holland Street Horror. Your first chapter, you 80 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:44.040 take us to December thirty first, nineteen sixty and George Musey, 81 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:47.759 he's making a missing person's report to Detective Carl Kalinowski. 82 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:52.120 And Carl Kalinowski, the detective seems odd and he recognizes 83 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:54.639 him from the week before and asks him, weren't you 84 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:57.360 here the week before? So tell us what he was 85 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.519 there the week before regarding and tell us a little 86 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:03.439 bit more about this report he's making on this date, 87 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:04.519 December thirty first. 88 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:07.160 So during the early morning hours a December thirty first, 89 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:11.160 nineteen sixty, George Muscid went to the front desk of 90 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:13.480 the Eria City Police Department at the time, which was 91 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:15.879 in the basement of our local city hall when the 92 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.240 old building stood. At the time, it was around four 93 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.439 o'clock in the morning. The reason he was at the 94 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.519 police department was because he was filing avesting person's report 95 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:26.720 in regards to his mother, a six year old Laura Munch. 96 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:30.680 His mother, actually George was one of the last individuals 97 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.560 known to see her alive. He had dropped her off 98 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.560 a church the night previous, and during the early morning 99 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:38.639 hours had received a call from one of his siblings 100 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:41.319 indicating that their mother had not come home. After a 101 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:44.439 fruitful search of the neighborhood area there, they then were 102 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.519 instructed by the pastor of that church that they should 103 00:05:47.560 --> 00:05:50.199 reach out to the police for file report. Now, the 104 00:05:50.240 --> 00:05:55.360 reason why Kalanowski had recognized Laura Which's son was because 105 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:59.720 previously his brother Leonard, had disappeared was later found to 106 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:03.040 see by a pair of young women after he had 107 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:06.000 been found happened to die from exposure. And when that 108 00:06:06.079 --> 00:06:09.000 had happened, that family had also filed a missing person's report, 109 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:12.519 So that kind of stuck fresh with Detective Kalamowski at 110 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:14.920 the time, kind of made it interesting, i would say, 111 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:16.600 for the most part, because here you have a family 112 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.240 they're finiling their second missing person's report within a week. 113 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:22.879 And as you touched on that fall of nineteen sixty, 114 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.120 city of Ry had really seen an uptick in not 115 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:29.279 only burglaries, but petty crime, juvenile crime including pers snashing 116 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:31.480 and what we would you know, what we do come 117 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:33.800 to recognize now as a tax off women. 118 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:36.800 You're right that a few hours later, a woman named 119 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.279 Charlotte Clue was inside her house but happened to look 120 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.399 out the window and saw a body of an elderly 121 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:48.000 woman on her back, her dress lifted around her waist. Anyway, 122 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.920 there was something shoved in their mouth. She told her landlord, 123 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:54.000 and the landlord called police and you say, Detective Sergeant 124 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:59.079 Carl Melanewski and his partner Philip Loopo arrived at the scene. 125 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:00.839 Tell us what they find. 126 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:03.360 So when they arrived at the scene, which would have 127 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:06.360 been at a duplex located at seven one seven Holland 128 00:07:06.399 --> 00:07:09.399 Street at the time, when you face the front of 129 00:07:09.399 --> 00:07:12.759 the duplex, to the north of the duplex, you would 130 00:07:12.759 --> 00:07:16.040 have a garage and there was a thin clearance between 131 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:18.000 the garage and the home which would lead into an 132 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:22.600 entrance into the backyard. So when both detectives arrive on scene, 133 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:24.800 there are several officers there. There's a little bit of 134 00:07:24.839 --> 00:07:27.480 a crowd growing as the discovery of the body spread, 135 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.680 people starting to moll around the front of the residents. 136 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.600 As the detectives arrive on scene, they are advised that 137 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:35.959 the deceased individual was in the backyard of the home, 138 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.319 and they went back into the rear of seven one 139 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:41.000 seven Hollow Street and began what we do come to 140 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.000 see is the beginning of their cursory investigation, trying to 141 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:46.160 get it just for the area, looking for any kind 142 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.720 of evidence that was possible. At the scene, confirmed that 143 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:51.120 the woman was in fact dead, and they know obviously 144 00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:54.399 the proper protocol was calling the county coroner, making sure. 145 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:55.879 That they do what they can to preserve the scene, 146 00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:58.800 tell us about the condition of the body in regards 147 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:01.360 to particulars in terms of the scarf. 148 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:04.680 So the body when it was found, which obviously the 149 00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:08.399 woman would then become identified as Laura much she was 150 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:11.399 there for quite some time when the body was removed, 151 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:15.000 I believe earlier that morning around that which would have 152 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:17.399 been the thirty first of December, around eleven o'clock is 153 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:22.000 when they started the beginning process of examining photographs and 154 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:24.439 removing the scarf that was found wrapped around her mouth 155 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.639 in her throat. Now, the scarfs which would have been 156 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:30.240 around her head prior to her being attacked and murdered, 157 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:34.480 was intricately tied i'd say, around her mouth in a 158 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:37.840 way that would have assisted in what the corner believed 159 00:08:37.879 --> 00:08:41.200 was obviously death by strangulation. Now, when she was found, 160 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:44.679 there were some marks on her skin. She had some 161 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:48.080 marks on her nose, heatbones, upper lips. There are some 162 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.480 linear markings that were faintly observed. You know. These were 163 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:55.320 more so red, slightly depressed parallel lines and more or 164 00:08:55.399 --> 00:08:59.120 less represented impressions or braces due to contact with clothing 165 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.399 of that sort, which could have possibly been from the 166 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.639 scarf for the individual that attacked her, you know, the 167 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:06.600 pressure of the scarf created the pressure on his skin 168 00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:09.639 around her Adam's apple. All the evidence showed that the 169 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:14.000 scarf was actually used pretty rudely, you know. Evidence showed 170 00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:16.360 that it was tightly looped around her neck. She also 171 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:19.440 had additional marks on her body. There was a mark 172 00:09:19.480 --> 00:09:22.639 above I believe her right breast which was slightly discolored. 173 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:26.639 There was a half inch laceration on her left knee. 174 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:29.679 Police later believed that that was due to the fact 175 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.879 at some point maybe she had during the attack fell 176 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.200 onto the ground. Her knee had made contact with the ground, 177 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.200 which was frozen and there was ice at the time. 178 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:41.039 There was also evidence of sexual assault, no necessarily marks 179 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.960 of defensive wounds. No blood was found at the scene. 180 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:46.840 That was another interesting thing. They found no hairs. There 181 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.519 was really nothing at least for the body besides the 182 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:52.240 seven of fluid that was found that would indicate that 183 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:54.039 a crime obviously had taken place. 184 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:57.840 You chronicle at the same time, around the same time 185 00:09:57.919 --> 00:10:01.720 in December than the previous seventy In September seventy five 186 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.360 year old woman was attacked. In December, women were attacked, 187 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:10.080 some escaped, All of these were gave various descriptions of 188 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:14.559 the perpetrator. Now you have Detective Melanowski and Detective Loopo 189 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:18.080 on the case here. What is their strategy in terms 190 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.519 of potential suspects, how do they go about finding those 191 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:22.639 and what's the criteria. 192 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:25.240 Well, the interesting thing was that when these numerous attacks 193 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:28.240 had occurred prior to the death alre much that December, 194 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:31.720 these attacks, which kind of resembled more blitz style attacks, 195 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:34.120 were more similar in nature that some of the ones 196 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:36.360 we'll see later in the book. Some of these attacks 197 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:41.000 consisted of older or elderly women who were again they 198 00:10:41.000 --> 00:10:43.360 were attacked in a blitz style manner, and some of 199 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:45.840 them were pulled into the back of the residence where 200 00:10:45.879 --> 00:10:48.159 there was either an assault that had taken a place 201 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:52.080 or an attempted assault. Those individuals did flee the sea. Now, 202 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.559 the detectives at the time had known about this, that 203 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:57.320 was very fresh on their minds and it was definitely 204 00:10:57.399 --> 00:10:59.480 something that they were trying to combat. This type of 205 00:10:59.559 --> 00:11:02.879 murder from onset had all the earmarks of the similar 206 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:05.120 type of attack. So the police were the opinion that 207 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:09.320 those were not only connected, that the same individual was responsible, 208 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:12.639 and fanning out through the neighborhood, they looked for additional clues. 209 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:14.720 There was a value that ran behind seven to one 210 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:19.279 seven Holland Street. It ran north bound before them, appropriately 211 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:23.440 cutting i would say, eastbound behind some manufacturing buildings and 212 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:26.639 other homes residences. Police also fanned out to try to 213 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:30.039 find individuals who had criminal records of his sexual nature, 214 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:34.440 sex offenders, individuals who were known to rape and cost women, 215 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:37.679 something similar to what we see in today's society with 216 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.799 investigating crimes. The detectives were pretty much on point back then. 217 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:42.960 They knew the type of individual they were looking for 218 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:45.960 with somebody and this was a sexually motivated crime. So 219 00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:49.080 they began pulling all these individuals in, individuals with past 220 00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:52.080 criminal records, Like I said, focusing on those who had 221 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:56.600 a sexual nature and renown to rape women and sexually 222 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:57.240 attack them. 223 00:11:57.480 --> 00:12:01.720 You talk about the fear that was spreading very very 224 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:05.440 quickly in Erie, Pennsylvania, with a great example with the 225 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.720 frantic Charlotte clue. The woman that had initially seen Laura 226 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:13.360 Munch in the backyard called police frantic that there was 227 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:15.840 a prowler in her basement, and police ran to that 228 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:20.559 location immediately and found no prowler whatsoever. And soon Charlotte 229 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:22.799 moved out of that location. And you talk about the 230 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.759 fear that was spreading very very quickly while detectives were 231 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:28.279 scrambling to find suspects. 232 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.639 Yeah, and it was very apparent the effect that this had. 233 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:34.519 And that shows two things. One that the attacks on 234 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.279 women prior to the murder were fresh in the public's mine, 235 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:40.360 at least in that area. In two, once that had 236 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.639 escalated the murder, we saw numerous instances where husbands and 237 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:47.799 boyfriends and might let their girlfriends and wives, even a 238 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:50.799 sister's daughters, any kind of women, you know, we saw 239 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:53.919 it uptick in them advising that you know, they would 240 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:57.399 walk in groups or pairs, that women were not walking alone, 241 00:12:57.639 --> 00:13:01.320 would not venture out much after night. Had instances where 242 00:13:01.519 --> 00:13:04.480 I even had individuals tell me that they remember barricades 243 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:07.840 being put up immediately afterwards, the check individuals who were 244 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:09.799 leaving in and out of the city. There was the 245 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:12.440 implication that maybe, you know, at the time year he 246 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:15.159 was still an industrial city, maybe it was a transient 247 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:19.600 passing through somebody who was a sexual offender in nature, 248 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.080 you had women who would lock their doors. This was 249 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.919 also evident with the local police switchboard, which was seeing 250 00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:29.639 a rise in phone calls from frantic housewives who were 251 00:13:29.639 --> 00:13:31.639 home alone and the women who claimed that there were 252 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:35.080 prowlers on the residents. It definitely kept police on edge 253 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.440 because the fact is where is this going to go next? 254 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:39.720 How is it going to escalate? And that's very evident 255 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:42.320 at least what we see with the local fear in 256 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.360 the community. As you state, it keeps progressing. 257 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:47.840 More and more. You're right about February twenty eighth, nineteen 258 00:13:47.879 --> 00:13:50.320 sixty one, and a young woman named Betty Quick is 259 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.159 attack walking home. She gives a description. There are four 260 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.440 more suspects picked up by police. Of course, in those 261 00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.840 days they relied on polygraph tests to basically clear people. 262 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.720 You right, though, there was a maniac in our midst. 263 00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:08.600 The headline June second, nineteen sixty one and Clara Carrigg, 264 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.759 a seventy two year old is with her mother who's 265 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.879 ninety three. Tell us what happens when the man knocks 266 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:15.480 out the door of their home. 267 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.000 Sure so on June second, nineteen sixty one, especially what 268 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:22.960 it happened is Clara Carrag rented a resident of sixty 269 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.879 eighty sixth Street here neary, Pennsylvania. She was at home 270 00:14:25.960 --> 00:14:28.919 with her elderly mother, who I believe was around using 271 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:32.399 her her nineties early nineties, and that morning Clara Carrigg 272 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:35.279 had received a bock at the front door from what 273 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:38.320 she would later recall as a younger white male. At 274 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:41.919 the time, the landlord was attempting to sublet rent out 275 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:44.440 the second floor of the home, which was also used 276 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:47.279 as a rental property as well. She left the key 277 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:49.679 with Kara Clarig and said if anybody did come by 278 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:51.720 that she did have permission to go ahead to show 279 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:54.320 the residents. So on getting a knock at the front door, 280 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:56.639 Clara Carig is introduced by a man who said he's 281 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.720 responding to an advertisement about her room to rent. She 282 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.320 takes some upstairs to the second floor and immediately she 283 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:05.039 is attacked, this time again as we see with the 284 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:08.399 previous instances, in a blitz style type of attack. She's 285 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:11.240 sexually assaulted and she is stabbed in the stomach. Now 286 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.360 at that point Clara wakes up she had been also 287 00:15:14.480 --> 00:15:17.120 you know, assaulted and beaten. She wakes up discovers that 288 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:20.679 she stabbed, gains the attention of her husband downstairs, who 289 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.159 assists her before contacting the fire department at police, who 290 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.960 then immediately respond to the scene of the accident, and 291 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.679 then she's rushed to the hospital with what would be 292 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:32.279 at the time almost considered near fatal wounds, but luckily, 293 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:34.679 with you know, blood transfusions and then getting her rushed 294 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:36.559 into surgery, they were able to save her life. 295 00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.919 You say that police noticed similarities between this attack and 296 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.200 Laura Mutch's murder, I don't think correct. 297 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:45.360 Yeah, there was a and this kind of fits into 298 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:47.600 that pattern, and the early woman was attacked, although this 299 00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:49.799 one woman was attacked in her home, but there was 300 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.559 this sexual assault nature, the fact that there was an 301 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.000 attempt at murder. You know, this is following the murder 302 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:57.879 of Laura munsso police had every reason they feel and 303 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:00.600 believed that this individual would would murder again, have the 304 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.759 opportunity presented itself. With some of the specifics at least, 305 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:06.559 like Clara Terrik had mentioned the way that the individual 306 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.600 had attacked her, there were similarities at least with some 307 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:12.840 of the detectives department that that was done by somebody 308 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:15.960 of a similar nature who's responsible for those attacks. 309 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.120 You write that the headline was madman on the loose, 310 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.679 and also that you write that there were widespread changes 311 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:25.559 in the police department in March nineteen sixty two, and 312 00:16:25.600 --> 00:16:29.480 somebody that was initially on this case, Fagotsky, was the 313 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:33.000 motive to patrol officer, so he retired. But also another 314 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.559 person involved. In July nineteen sixty two, Melanowski decided to 315 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.480 paint his house outside. He had a heart attack and 316 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.759 died at fifty nine. And you say several days after 317 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.960 that another woman was attacked. And you have this chapter 318 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:51.320 titled Downpour of Death. July twentieth, nineteen sixty two, and 319 00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:55.440 Helen Noss, who's twenty seven, is visits a department store 320 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:58.440 in West Eriy Plaza and she gets back to her car. 321 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:02.120 Tell us what happens to Helen Nost July twentieth. 322 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:04.880 So what happens on July twenty, nineteen sixty two. Helen 323 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.319 Oss had gone to West Aria Plaza, which at the 324 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.440 time was a popular shopping location with stores. She had 325 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:14.640 gone to pay some bills. A time when she was 326 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:17.720 preparing to leave to go to her vehicle, there was 327 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:20.759 a downpour. At the time, rain had been thundering through 328 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:23.640 the area. As she approached her car and went to 329 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:26.480 go sit inside the vehicle, A young white male sat 330 00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:28.920 in the passenger side seat at the same time. Soon 331 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:32.519 he produced a knife and essentially abducted her from West 332 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:35.839 Erie Plaza into his own vehicle. The vehicle then proceeds 333 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:39.880 westbound outside of the Erie city limits into the countryside 334 00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:41.599 in the area where we know what we call water 335 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.599 or I'm sorry, a fairview in Pennsylvania. Now, at some point, 336 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.240 he turns off the road onto a road called Eaton Road, 337 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.920 pulls over, begins to mercifully beat her, and she then 338 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.839 she blocks out. She doesn't recall anything until several hours 339 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:55.920 later she awakened in a ditch on the side of 340 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:58.680 the road and with her throat slit tastes her several times, 341 00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:01.720 and you know, she was able to muster enough strength 342 00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:05.680 to make it to a nearby local mom and pop 343 00:18:05.720 --> 00:18:08.839 gas station as we call it, where police were contacted. 344 00:18:09.000 --> 00:18:11.680 Emergency personnel were able to rush her to the hospital. 345 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.160 This kind of tack, even though helen Os was different 346 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.400 from cleric carry gi much and the fact that she 347 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:20.640 was a much younger woman, younger victim. But what bothered 348 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.720 the police was the fact is that how she was attacked. 349 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:27.039 There was some evidence that there was a possible assault 350 00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:29.839 on her, sexual assault, which also factored into it. So 351 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:32.720 now you had the residence of the city ari who 352 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.640 had been on fear for a year and a half, 353 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:37.640 so on and so forth. Now as it was spreading 354 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:40.880 into the count So that kind of escalates at that 355 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:43.839 time the fear in that area. But it also sees 356 00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:47.279 the introduction of Pennsylvania State Police in that investigation. 357 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.720 You also say that Helen was able to make a 358 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.680 composite drawing which was released, and this was a unique 359 00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:57.359 sketch in many ways for the description that she had 360 00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:58.880 for that composite, didn't she. 361 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:01.319 Yeah, it was really And the thing is the police 362 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:03.960 had worked with nos for some time on the composite 363 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:06.920 sketch because of the individual. And the interesting thing is that, 364 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:09.119 you know, as you'll see, as the audience will see 365 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:11.240 in the book, there were numerous other attacks that were 366 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.640 just like the abduction and attack on Hollanos that occurred 367 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:17.599 even as far away as Buffalo, New York. So you know, 368 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:19.799 with the State police being involved, you know, one of 369 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.240 their thoughts was this as an individual who you know, 370 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.720 he has means to an automobile, he has the ability 371 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:27.039 to travel. So there was the hope that, you know, 372 00:19:27.119 --> 00:19:30.480 if this individual matched somebody, whether they were in Erie 373 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.599 County or nearby state of Ohio or New York, that 374 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.599 that could possibly lead to an arrest, and the composite 375 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.759 itself was very detailed. Police also went ahead and released 376 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:42.680 additional details of the inside of the individual's vehicle what 377 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.319 that would have looked like as well. Unfortunately, those yielded 378 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.359 no conclusive clues, but it definitely did provide an interesting 379 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:52.440 description of the attacker himself. You know, the fact is 380 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:55.200 in the paper started calling him the slasher, which also 381 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:58.240 kind of plays into that fact that the press. One 382 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:01.200 thing I remember being told and called as my professor says, 383 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:04.000 if it bleeds, it leads, and that's certainly something that 384 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.359 applied to these cases, because you know, not only do 385 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.440 you have these attacks and murders occurring against women in 386 00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:12.319 the area creating the sphere, but you have the press 387 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.160 with these sensational headlines that kind of takes in and 388 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:16.559 then puts it into overdrive. 389 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:20.680 I wanted to mention the incredible photos that are that 390 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:24.000 are part of this extraordinary book, and you provide that 391 00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:27.200 composite drawing in your book as well, along with an 392 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:30.480 incredible array of photos from that time right to say 393 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:34.920 the slasher is has surfaced. But from that it seems 394 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.559 that the police think they have their first real break, 395 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:38.039 don't they. 396 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.759 Yeah. The thing is with this, you have not only 397 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.119 and this is kind of where we see not only 398 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:47.480 the difference in the different jurisdictions of police departments that 399 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:50.799 operated and investigating these crimes, but we start to see, 400 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.359 you know, the area city police detect us believe one thing, 401 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:55.759