Speaker 1: Joining the fifty five Caresee Morning Show. Frank Abrams a
Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney in North Carolina as well as Florida's
Speaker 1: practiced in federal state criminal law for thirty eight plus years.
Speaker 1: He's been on public radio and Core TV, and he
Speaker 1: is an author. And today we're welcoming to the fifty
Speaker 1: five Carsy Morning Show to talk about his book, The
Speaker 1: Cock Fight. And I observe Frank, and it's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you on the program. It's been long stated
Speaker 1: the law holds it as better the ten guilty persons
Speaker 1: escape than one innocent sufferer. I'm a firm believer in that,
Speaker 1: and there was a time in my life, Frank, that
Speaker 1: I believed in the death penalty. But as I've gotten,
Speaker 1: coming older and wiser and having practice litigation for sixteen years,
Speaker 1: I am painfully aware of the fact that quite often,
Speaker 1: well maybe not often, but sometimes innocent people are convicted.
Speaker 1: And if the state has the ability to take your
Speaker 1: life from you, that's a scary proposition. Welcome Frank, Sorry
Speaker 1: for being long winded.
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's an honor and a pleasure. And you
Speaker 2: are one hundred percent on point Ryan. So can I
Speaker 2: tell you a little bit of about how this book
Speaker 2: came about.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Plus explain the title for my listeners so they
Speaker 1: understand the relationship.
Speaker 2: Okay, the title of the book is The cock Fight.
Speaker 2: So one day I'm sitting at federal court. This is
Speaker 2: a few years back, and it comes to my attention
Speaker 2: and the attention that's some other attorneys that there's a
Speaker 2: Kentucky crime lab that has been mishandling DNA. So, Brian,
Speaker 2: I thought to myself, what could go wrong there? So
Speaker 2: that's when I started. Yeah, that's when I started writing
Speaker 2: the book. It gets even better, but I started writing
Speaker 2: the book. The main character of my book is a
Speaker 2: teacher of the year who's falsely accused of a relationship
Speaker 2: with a student, loses everything he has and is living
Speaker 2: under a bridge with homeless people. Now why is it
Speaker 2: called the cock Fight? The answer is because every third
Speaker 2: Friday of the month under this bridge they have cock fights.
Speaker 2: Why because the basis of the book is they treat
Speaker 2: animals the same way, fighting roosters the same way they
Speaker 2: treat people. They make them mean and angry towards each other,
Speaker 2: and then they make money in the whole unholy process.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you pointed out the money thing, because I
Speaker 1: had that line in the notes circled for this reason
Speaker 1: because as you know from my comments introducing you having
Speaker 1: practice litigation and eight years in Chicago and eight years
Speaker 1: in house with a healthcare company, I know how expensive
Speaker 1: retaining a lawyer is. I mean outrageous amounts of money.
Speaker 1: You're talking several hundred at minimum dollars an hour. And
Speaker 1: if you get falsely accused of a crime or accused
Speaker 1: of a crime, generally speaking, you have to get a
Speaker 1: defense attorney unless you rely on the public defender. And
Speaker 1: I will welcome your observations about the competency of the
Speaker 1: public Defender's office, but they tend to be overwhelmed with
Speaker 1: a number of cases they had, so to get competent counsel,
Speaker 1: it's coming out of your pocket. And for those the
Speaker 1: Moneys that don't have a lot of money, it's an
Speaker 1: impossible chore.
Speaker 2: Abbsosolutely. Public defender's offices across the country are utterly overwhelmed.
Speaker 2: They don't have the time, they don't have the resources.
Speaker 2: But this this even gets better because yesterday in the
Speaker 2: news came out a story that a crime lab analyst
Speaker 2: altered DNA evidence in hundreds of cases in Colorado yesterday's news.
Speaker 2: It's like they knew, Brian, that I was going to
Speaker 2: be interviewed by you today. It's like they knew why.
Speaker 1: And no, the timing is excellent, Franks, But why would
Speaker 1: they do that?
Speaker 2: Well, here's the thing I wrote. I wrote my book
Speaker 2: of the story of this teacher's fight to clear his
Speaker 2: name and all that he has to go through. And
Speaker 2: in it, I have a hearing and a trial, and
Speaker 2: there's eight potential eight reasons, eight things more than eight
Speaker 2: actually that can go wrong, and a lot of it
Speaker 2: has to do with time elements. These lab analysts are told,
Speaker 2: we want these results, we want them now. There's hundreds
Speaker 2: and hundreds of cases they'll fudge results. There's evidence in
Speaker 2: that particular case she was indicted for over a hundred
Speaker 2: plus cases that she dealt with. You know, I can't
Speaker 2: say why people do things, but I know this that
Speaker 2: it happens, and when the system, when someone's life and
Speaker 2: someone's freedom is at stake, there has to be more
Speaker 2: than just oh, well, we have this test and we're
Speaker 2: gonna absolutely rely on the results of this test.
Speaker 1: That's a great point, Frank. I think there's a sort
Speaker 1: of perhaps it's a you know, presumably a government employee
Speaker 1: or some lab They don't have any relationship to defend it.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a presumption of guilt because they've been charged,
Speaker 1: so they have a lack of care and concern that
Speaker 1: they should sort of put themselves in the position of
Speaker 1: the person who's a defendant and do the job correctly
Speaker 1: and be able to testify on the stand that everything
Speaker 1: every eye was dotted and t was crossed because lives
Speaker 1: are at stake here. But it's like taxpayer dollars. You know,
Speaker 1: the government doesn't care where the dollars come from. They
Speaker 1: don't have any incentive to be you know, mindful of
Speaker 1: where the money's going because they have this open spigot,
Speaker 1: and that creates well, lack of care and concern. Same
Speaker 1: kind of parallel.
Speaker 2: Boy, boy, Brian, have you hit it and let me
Speaker 2: tell you that. Let me say this you want to
Speaker 2: talk about, you know, they talk about weaponizing the Justice
Speaker 2: Department against you know people. If you want to see
Speaker 2: the weaponization of the justice pot, you ought to see
Speaker 2: how it's been weaponized against regular people and people who
Speaker 2: just can't afford to pay for expensive attorneys, and people
Speaker 2: who just don't have the resources, and now, of course
Speaker 2: we're in days of budgetary restraint, as we always have.
Speaker 2: So you know, good luck getting the court to approve
Speaker 2: money and say things like, well, you know, we're going
Speaker 2: to go ahead and do another test, even though you've
Speaker 2: already had a test and your results have been tested.
Speaker 2: In my book, the individual asks for another test, but
Speaker 2: it's rejected. It's rejected, and in federal courts they have
Speaker 2: something across the country called rocket dockets, and so it's
Speaker 2: like this, well, guess what, we don't have time to
Speaker 2: do another test. There's not going to be the money
Speaker 2: given to do another test. And guess what, you don't
Speaker 2: be in trial on Monday. So you see, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: Well I.
Speaker 1: Didn't practice I didn't practice criminal law. And I understand
Speaker 1: where you're coming from though, because you know, when you're
Speaker 1: preparing for a trial, you have a lot of work
Speaker 1: on your plate, and when and you're a criminal defendant,
Speaker 1: a criminal defense attorney, you know, again, your client's life
Speaker 1: is in your hands. I dealt with money matters, and
Speaker 1: of course that really is significant to your client, but
Speaker 1: lives aren't at stake, And so I feel for you, Frank,
Speaker 1: I really do. In the book, it's the cock Fight.
Speaker 1: It's on my blog page fifty five Carosea dot com.
Speaker 1: I'm a guest today, Frank Abrams. I appreciate your passion
Speaker 1: on this subject. It's something near and dear to my heart. Frank,
Speaker 1: it's been great having you on the program. I appreciate
Speaker 1: you sharing your time and with our listeners and documenting this.
Speaker 1: And it is a work of fiction, but Frank will
Speaker 1: tell you all day long, this is all based on
Speaker 1: reality and real quick Frank, in terms of being a
Speaker 1: defense attorney, if I wanted a separate DNA test because
Speaker 1: I had suspicions about the one that was presented by
Speaker 1: the prosecuting attorney, how much would it cost me as
Speaker 1: an a separate line item on the legal bill.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, typically they take it takes quite
Speaker 2: a long time to do, but it would be in
Speaker 2: the many thousands of dollars, at least three or four
Speaker 2: thousand dollars, and you're going to have to go ahead,
Speaker 2: basically and also retain an expert regarding that all to
Speaker 2: show that the first test had flaws. So take a
Speaker 2: guess what that's.
Speaker 1: Gone at eight hundred plus dollars an hour?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, eight hundred plus. You know what an honored
Speaker 2: has been to talk to you. It has just been
Speaker 2: such an honor to be interviewed. And this book I
Speaker 2: wrote came from my heart.
Speaker 1: I know it did.
Speaker 2: And people seem to like this because this is a
Speaker 2: book that tells it like it is well.
Speaker 1: And again you're outlining in this work of fiction real
Speaker 1: parallels to real life and again supporting my argument that
Speaker 1: there should be no death penalty from the state. Frank,
Speaker 1: keep up the great work. Thanks for joining me on
Speaker 1: the Morning show, and I'll recommend my listeners go to
Speaker 1: fifty five Carracy dot com and get a copy of
Speaker 1: your book, The Cockfight