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<v Speaker 1>Joining the fifty five Caresee Morning Show. Frank Abrams a

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<v Speaker 1>criminal defense attorney in North Carolina as well as Florida's

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<v Speaker 1>practiced in federal state criminal law for thirty eight plus years.

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<v Speaker 1>He's been on public radio and Core TV, and he

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<v Speaker 1>is an author. And today we're welcoming to the fifty

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<v Speaker 1>five Carsy Morning Show to talk about his book, The

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<v Speaker 1>Cock Fight. And I observe Frank, and it's a pleasure

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<v Speaker 1>to have you on the program. It's been long stated

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<v Speaker 1>the law holds it as better the ten guilty persons

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<v Speaker 1>escape than one innocent sufferer. I'm a firm believer in that,

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<v Speaker 1>and there was a time in my life, Frank, that

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<v Speaker 1>I believed in the death penalty. But as I've gotten,

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<v Speaker 1>coming older and wiser and having practice litigation for sixteen years,

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<v Speaker 1>I am painfully aware of the fact that quite often,

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<v Speaker 1>well maybe not often, but sometimes innocent people are convicted.

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<v Speaker 1>And if the state has the ability to take your

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<v Speaker 1>life from you, that's a scary proposition. Welcome Frank, Sorry

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<v Speaker 1>for being long winded.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh no, it's an honor and a pleasure. And you

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<v Speaker 2>are one hundred percent on point Ryan. So can I

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<v Speaker 2>tell you a little bit of about how this book

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<v Speaker 2>came about.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, Plus explain the title for my listeners so they

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<v Speaker 1>understand the relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, the title of the book is The cock Fight.

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<v Speaker 2>So one day I'm sitting at federal court. This is

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<v Speaker 2>a few years back, and it comes to my attention

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<v Speaker 2>and the attention that's some other attorneys that there's a

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<v Speaker 2>Kentucky crime lab that has been mishandling DNA. So, Brian,

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<v Speaker 2>I thought to myself, what could go wrong there? So

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<v Speaker 2>that's when I started. Yeah, that's when I started writing

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<v Speaker 2>the book. It gets even better, but I started writing

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<v Speaker 2>the book. The main character of my book is a

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<v Speaker 2>teacher of the year who's falsely accused of a relationship

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<v Speaker 2>with a student, loses everything he has and is living

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<v Speaker 2>under a bridge with homeless people. Now why is it

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<v Speaker 2>called the cock Fight? The answer is because every third

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<v Speaker 2>Friday of the month under this bridge they have cock fights.

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<v Speaker 2>Why because the basis of the book is they treat

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<v Speaker 2>animals the same way, fighting roosters the same way they

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<v Speaker 2>treat people. They make them mean and angry towards each other,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they make money in the whole unholy process.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm glad you pointed out the money thing, because I

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<v Speaker 1>had that line in the notes circled for this reason

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<v Speaker 1>because as you know from my comments introducing you having

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<v Speaker 1>practice litigation and eight years in Chicago and eight years

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<v Speaker 1>in house with a healthcare company, I know how expensive

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<v Speaker 1>retaining a lawyer is. I mean outrageous amounts of money.

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<v Speaker 1>You're talking several hundred at minimum dollars an hour. And

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<v Speaker 1>if you get falsely accused of a crime or accused

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<v Speaker 1>of a crime, generally speaking, you have to get a

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<v Speaker 1>defense attorney unless you rely on the public defender. And

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<v Speaker 1>I will welcome your observations about the competency of the

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<v Speaker 1>public Defender's office, but they tend to be overwhelmed with

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<v Speaker 1>a number of cases they had, so to get competent counsel,

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<v Speaker 1>it's coming out of your pocket. And for those the

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<v Speaker 1>Moneys that don't have a lot of money, it's an

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<v Speaker 1>impossible chore.

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<v Speaker 2>Abbsosolutely. Public defender's offices across the country are utterly overwhelmed.

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<v Speaker 2>They don't have the time, they don't have the resources.

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<v Speaker 2>But this this even gets better because yesterday in the

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<v Speaker 2>news came out a story that a crime lab analyst

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<v Speaker 2>altered DNA evidence in hundreds of cases in Colorado yesterday's news.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like they knew, Brian, that I was going to

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<v Speaker 2>be interviewed by you today. It's like they knew why.

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<v Speaker 1>And no, the timing is excellent, Franks, But why would

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<v Speaker 1>they do that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, here's the thing I wrote. I wrote my book

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<v Speaker 2>of the story of this teacher's fight to clear his

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<v Speaker 2>name and all that he has to go through. And

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<v Speaker 2>in it, I have a hearing and a trial, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's eight potential eight reasons, eight things more than eight

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<v Speaker 2>actually that can go wrong, and a lot of it

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<v Speaker 2>has to do with time elements. These lab analysts are told,

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<v Speaker 2>we want these results, we want them now. There's hundreds

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<v Speaker 2>and hundreds of cases they'll fudge results. There's evidence in

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<v Speaker 2>that particular case she was indicted for over a hundred

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<v Speaker 2>plus cases that she dealt with. You know, I can't

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<v Speaker 2>say why people do things, but I know this that

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<v Speaker 2>it happens, and when the system, when someone's life and

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<v Speaker 2>someone's freedom is at stake, there has to be more

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<v Speaker 2>than just oh, well, we have this test and we're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna absolutely rely on the results of this test.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great point, Frank. I think there's a sort

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<v Speaker 1>of perhaps it's a you know, presumably a government employee

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<v Speaker 1>or some lab They don't have any relationship to defend it.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe there's a presumption of guilt because they've been charged,

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<v Speaker 1>so they have a lack of care and concern that

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<v Speaker 1>they should sort of put themselves in the position of

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<v Speaker 1>the person who's a defendant and do the job correctly

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<v Speaker 1>and be able to testify on the stand that everything

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<v Speaker 1>every eye was dotted and t was crossed because lives

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<v Speaker 1>are at stake here. But it's like taxpayer dollars. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the government doesn't care where the dollars come from. They

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<v Speaker 1>don't have any incentive to be you know, mindful of

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<v Speaker 1>where the money's going because they have this open spigot,

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<v Speaker 1>and that creates well, lack of care and concern. Same

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<v Speaker 1>kind of parallel.

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<v Speaker 2>Boy, boy, Brian, have you hit it and let me

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<v Speaker 2>tell you that. Let me say this you want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about, you know, they talk about weaponizing the Justice

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<v Speaker 2>Department against you know people. If you want to see

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<v Speaker 2>the weaponization of the justice pot, you ought to see

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<v Speaker 2>how it's been weaponized against regular people and people who

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<v Speaker 2>just can't afford to pay for expensive attorneys, and people

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<v Speaker 2>who just don't have the resources, and now, of course

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<v Speaker 2>we're in days of budgetary restraint, as we always have.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, good luck getting the court to approve

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<v Speaker 2>money and say things like, well, you know, we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to go ahead and do another test, even though you've

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<v Speaker 2>already had a test and your results have been tested.

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<v Speaker 2>In my book, the individual asks for another test, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's rejected. It's rejected, and in federal courts they have

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<v Speaker 2>something across the country called rocket dockets, and so it's

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<v Speaker 2>like this, well, guess what, we don't have time to

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<v Speaker 2>do another test. There's not going to be the money

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<v Speaker 2>given to do another test. And guess what, you don't

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<v Speaker 2>be in trial on Monday. So you see, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>Well I.

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<v Speaker 1>Didn't practice I didn't practice criminal law. And I understand

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<v Speaker 1>where you're coming from though, because you know, when you're

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<v Speaker 1>preparing for a trial, you have a lot of work

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<v Speaker 1>on your plate, and when and you're a criminal defendant,

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<v Speaker 1>a criminal defense attorney, you know, again, your client's life

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<v Speaker 1>is in your hands. I dealt with money matters, and

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<v Speaker 1>of course that really is significant to your client, but

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<v Speaker 1>lives aren't at stake, And so I feel for you, Frank,

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<v Speaker 1>I really do. In the book, it's the cock Fight.

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<v Speaker 1>It's on my blog page fifty five Carosea dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a guest today, Frank Abrams. I appreciate your passion

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<v Speaker 1>on this subject. It's something near and dear to my heart. Frank,

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<v Speaker 1>it's been great having you on the program. I appreciate

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<v Speaker 1>you sharing your time and with our listeners and documenting this.

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<v Speaker 1>And it is a work of fiction, but Frank will

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<v Speaker 1>tell you all day long, this is all based on

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<v Speaker 1>reality and real quick Frank, in terms of being a

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<v Speaker 1>defense attorney, if I wanted a separate DNA test because

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<v Speaker 1>I had suspicions about the one that was presented by

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecuting attorney, how much would it cost me as

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<v Speaker 1>an a separate line item on the legal bill.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first of all, typically they take it takes quite

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<v Speaker 2>a long time to do, but it would be in

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<v Speaker 2>the many thousands of dollars, at least three or four

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<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars, and you're going to have to go ahead,

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<v Speaker 2>basically and also retain an expert regarding that all to

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<v Speaker 2>show that the first test had flaws. So take a

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<v Speaker 2>guess what that's.

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<v Speaker 1>Gone at eight hundred plus dollars an hour?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, eight hundred plus. You know what an honored

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<v Speaker 2>has been to talk to you. It has just been

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<v Speaker 2>such an honor to be interviewed. And this book I

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<v Speaker 2>wrote came from my heart.

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<v Speaker 1>I know it did.

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<v Speaker 2>And people seem to like this because this is a

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<v Speaker 2>book that tells it like it is well.

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<v Speaker 1>And again you're outlining in this work of fiction real

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<v Speaker 1>parallels to real life and again supporting my argument that

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<v Speaker 1>there should be no death penalty from the state. Frank,

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<v Speaker 1>keep up the great work. Thanks for joining me on

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<v Speaker 1>the Morning show, and I'll recommend my listeners go to

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<v Speaker 1>fifty five Carracy dot com and get a copy of

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<v Speaker 1>your book, The Cockfight