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<v Speaker 1>Meaning a man like this man letting butterfly flapping and wing.

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<v Speaker 1>They've down in a force.

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<v Speaker 2>Man, it gonna cause the tree fall, letting five thousand

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<v Speaker 2>miles away.

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<v Speaker 1>Man, nobody see nobody else. See you don't need no

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<v Speaker 1>Man's like you followed another story and you got back

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<v Speaker 1>to protect that. That's the win. Man got back to

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<v Speaker 1>dag on the panel. Man, you don't get no better, man, don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Any Negativity is really fun. Criticism is really fun. It's

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<v Speaker 2>productive too. You've learned quite a lot by deconstructing and

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<v Speaker 2>criticizing our opponents, both on the nominal right and the

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<v Speaker 2>woke left, And in fact, many of us got our

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<v Speaker 2>start here through media criticism, right through pointing out the

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<v Speaker 2>obvious accesses of twenty sixteen era woke politics. But at

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<v Speaker 2>a certain point in time, it becomes necessary to turn

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<v Speaker 2>that critical gaze inward to your own guys, to guys

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<v Speaker 2>that you like, to people that you wish had won.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's why I think this episode is an important

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<v Speaker 2>companion piece to the show I did with Carl yesterday

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<v Speaker 2>examining Thomas Massey's loss in Kentucky, not Tennessee. As I

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<v Speaker 2>said in my last monologue, because nothing we said there's wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>I stand by everything I said, and in many cases

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<v Speaker 2>this analysis pairs very nicely with it. But there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot to take away from this. Obviously, the fact that Apac,

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<v Speaker 2>Miriam Adelson and co. Spent nearly three thousand, actually over

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<v Speaker 2>three thousand dollars a voter in this election. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that's dramatic. But I think we need to look at

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<v Speaker 2>Massy individually as a man and as a politician, and

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<v Speaker 2>then extrapolate that to some problems on the right, and

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<v Speaker 2>like our part of the right, not just the neocons,

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<v Speaker 2>not just the conservatives that we love bashing, and look

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<v Speaker 2>I like bashing them too. I've made a middling career

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<v Speaker 2>out of it. But in all seriousness, we have to

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<v Speaker 2>understand that there are times when we or our friends,

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<v Speaker 2>people we like, display the exact same beautiful loser tendencies,

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<v Speaker 2>the desire to destroy yourself over an unwinnable fight, to

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<v Speaker 2>sacrifice your chance of power, your chances of success, for

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<v Speaker 2>outdated political modes, right fighting the battle of ten years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's the argument that the author of the piece

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<v Speaker 2>that Ron Dodson and I went over makes great article

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<v Speaker 2>for Compact linked in to description. Effectively, Massey was a

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<v Speaker 2>man out of time. He comes from a time when

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<v Speaker 2>the Republican Party didn't have an identity, where it wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>bound around a central idea or central figure. I think

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<v Speaker 2>he's correct. Now, that doesn't mean that Donald Trump is

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<v Speaker 2>exactly who I would want to be occupying that central role,

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<v Speaker 2>or that I think massew was wrong and should have

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<v Speaker 2>lost not at all. But to say when there is

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<v Speaker 2>a time for unification, well either you get on board

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<v Speaker 2>or you get axed. And I think it's important to

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<v Speaker 2>mention that Massey did not do a great job appealing

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<v Speaker 2>to other people or making himself friends right now. Obviously

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<v Speaker 2>he made an enemy of the Israel lobby, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that as we go forward, will be less and

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<v Speaker 2>less of a problem. Look at the demos of who

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<v Speaker 2>voted for him. Look at how much money it took

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<v Speaker 2>to unseat him. But now that's a gamble that cost

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<v Speaker 2>you money. Criticizing the president on war powers that cost

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<v Speaker 2>you something. And do I think he was right one

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<v Speaker 2>hundred percent? Do I think he was right to challenge

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<v Speaker 2>Jpack one hundred percent? But you have to look at

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<v Speaker 2>this in the cold light a day. You have to

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<v Speaker 2>look at this. To be honest in an amoral context,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to look at this seriously, not just flying

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<v Speaker 2>off the handle because it feels good, not just allowing

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<v Speaker 2>yourself to sort of be defeated forever because of your

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<v Speaker 2>perfect consistency. And I think really the way that mass

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<v Speaker 2>shows this is in his be honest libertarian holdovers right,

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<v Speaker 2>the things he kept from twenty thirteen, the Ron Paul

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<v Speaker 2>era stuff, which led to him making stumbles on areas

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<v Speaker 2>he didn't need to, as regards immigration, as regards the

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<v Speaker 2>Second Amendment, as regards stuff like that, where if he hadn't,

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<v Speaker 2>if he had simply said, you know what, we're done

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<v Speaker 2>doing this, he would have been in a better position

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<v Speaker 2>enough to matter. Who knows, it's hypothetical, but I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's important to look at that. It's also important to

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<v Speaker 2>really be frank about the gap between what you care

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<v Speaker 2>about and what the median voter cares about. That doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>mean whatever that issue that came to your mind isn't important,

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean that you're not right. But to say not

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<v Speaker 2>everyone cares and not everyone cares in the same way,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think Massew's failure largely speaks to that, particularly

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<v Speaker 2>among the kind of people who vote in Republican primaries,

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<v Speaker 2>which is old people. Right, he would have had a

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<v Speaker 2>tough road to Hoe no matter what. But he put

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<v Speaker 2>himself in a weird position, in a really weird position.

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<v Speaker 2>And honestly, look, three thousand dollars a person does a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>But I don't think it did all of this. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think it did everything. There's more to this story

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<v Speaker 2>than the APEC money. Now, that's a big part of it, right,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to say that it it's insignificant. Clearly

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<v Speaker 2>it's a major part of this. And clearly this is unsustainable.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't buy out every race to this tune forever,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if current demographics continue. But that said, ass he

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't a perfect candidate. He wasn't a perfect guy, and

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<v Speaker 2>he made a lot of mistakes, a lot of mistakes

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<v Speaker 2>we can learn from because effectively we're watching the Republican

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<v Speaker 2>Party being built into a monolith, being built into the

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<v Speaker 2>Party of Trump. And the Republican Party really hasn't had

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<v Speaker 2>an identity. It had an identity during Bush, but really

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<v Speaker 2>that's a holdover from Reagan. That's an old paradigm, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's important to look at the party being

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<v Speaker 2>made in Trump's image, and wonder, well, what happens next?

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<v Speaker 2>Right now there are a lot of friends working at once.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the rising anti Israel sentiment across the board

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<v Speaker 2>under fifty five, Well that's a major shift. But also

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<v Speaker 2>the party is being stifle act more and more so

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<v Speaker 2>with Trump loyalists. He is the message, he is the base,

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<v Speaker 2>and clearly he has a ton of power. He decided

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<v Speaker 2>this primary. He took a guy who swung at him,

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<v Speaker 2>and let's not forget Massey swung at Trump over corruption,

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<v Speaker 2>which is an issue I don't particularly care about, and honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>I get the feeling that most voters, particularly Republican voters,

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<v Speaker 2>don't really care about. And so that set the ground, right,

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<v Speaker 2>that set the battlefield, and whatever happened from there, we

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<v Speaker 2>have to remember that. I think it's also important to

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<v Speaker 2>recognize that Zionism is different to different people in the

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<v Speaker 2>sense that for a lot of people, and for a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the people that are nominally pro Israel, it's

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<v Speaker 2>not really a position they think about that much. It

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't occupy the same central nature that it does perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>for you and I. For many people it's reflex it

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot more to do with the politics of

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<v Speaker 2>the American nineteen seventies and with general fox New sentiment

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<v Speaker 2>than it does any specific I'm like thought, any specific rationale,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's not good. I don't think that should be

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<v Speaker 2>the case. But it's important to remember that if you

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<v Speaker 2>define yourself on that, if you're putting yourself out in

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<v Speaker 2>public as a politician on that grounds. But it's sort

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<v Speaker 2>of irrelevant to a lot of people. Now, should it be?

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<v Speaker 1>No?

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<v Speaker 2>And do I think that the actions of APEC in

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<v Speaker 2>this race have made it more of an issue, made

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<v Speaker 2>it more prominent. Certainly, We've got to remember when we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about trends, we're talking about the future, not now.

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<v Speaker 2>As of now, this is not a winning proposition. That

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean it won't be in the future. And so

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<v Speaker 2>view this as sort of a I guess not even

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<v Speaker 2>an opposition, but sort of a temper to what I

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<v Speaker 2>said last time. Again, all of that analysis bears out.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know how any times I can say this,

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<v Speaker 2>but I still got comments on the last article or

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<v Speaker 2>a last episode. Rather if people misunderstanding my position. I

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<v Speaker 2>wish Massey had one. I wish that we could kick

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<v Speaker 2>Zionism out of American politics, but at least right now,

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<v Speaker 2>we can't and we have to understand that. We have

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<v Speaker 2>to understand that while the battlefield is changing, it is

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<v Speaker 2>not transformed yet. It is more transformed than I would

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<v Speaker 2>have guessed by a dramatic, dramatic degree, but it's not

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<v Speaker 2>yet an interesting point that It's also going to be

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<v Speaker 2>very interesting to watch how the Republican Party exists in

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<v Speaker 2>Trump's image after the man himself is gone. Kind of

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<v Speaker 2>saw it happen with Raken, But I think and I

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<v Speaker 2>could be wrong, This could be a classic Jbird bad prediction.

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<v Speaker 2>But I wonder if there is a possibility that we

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<v Speaker 2>don't get a massive upset in the midterms. Maybe this

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<v Speaker 2>is due to redistricting, maybe this is due to just

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<v Speaker 2>changing voter attitudes. But there's a real possibility that there

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<v Speaker 2>isn't a big price to pay. There isn't a big

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<v Speaker 2>consequence coming out of this race, which could, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>lead to an interesting situation, a situation where yeah, people

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<v Speaker 2>aren't happy, but fundamentally there's been a greater gap placed

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<v Speaker 2>between voter sentiment and the makeup of the House. Now

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<v Speaker 2>broadly speaking, I actually support that. I'm not really a

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<v Speaker 2>big democracy guy, And if I had to pick, I'd

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<v Speaker 2>like a Republican controlled legislature just because it keeps certain

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<v Speaker 2>bad things from happening. And the bad things that would

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<v Speaker 2>have happened probably would have happened no matter what. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's directionally preferable. But that's its own interesting thing. That

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<v Speaker 2>we may well be moving away from the era of

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<v Speaker 2>midterm snapbags. We saw that actually in twenty twenty two,

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<v Speaker 2>even in twenty twenty right the Democrats, and maybe there's

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<v Speaker 2>some shenanis there if you're more conspiratorially minded, that their

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<v Speaker 2>dramatic Biden results didn't necessarily translate down ballot. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>entirely possible that the House is going to become more stable.

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<v Speaker 2>We're starting to see this sorting taking place, and again

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<v Speaker 2>maybe that means everything is from a certain perspective centralizing.

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<v Speaker 2>Trump has expanded the role of the executive. He's been

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<v Speaker 2>fighting on that, and so maybe that's where power centralizes.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. It's an interesting question, and if we're

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<v Speaker 2>looking at this frame of paradigm shift, maybe that's part

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<v Speaker 2>of it. That the actual landscape of where politics happens shifts.

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<v Speaker 2>We've already seen that as regards issues like abortion and

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<v Speaker 2>largely the Second Amendment being kicked down to state levels.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very interesting series of possibilities and one that

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<v Speaker 2>I think we, as the new writer, are uniquely suited for.

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<v Speaker 2>We are winning, We are in the ascendent. Our values

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<v Speaker 2>are becoming more popular, but they're not there yet. But

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<v Speaker 2>given a long enough span of time, if current trends continue, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>will be more important than we are now. So just

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<v Speaker 2>a series of thoughts on that. This article again is

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<v Speaker 2>not what I agree with in every instance. There are

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<v Speaker 2>things I disagree with, things that I would phrase differently,

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<v Speaker 2>But it's well written, it's thought provoking, and so I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's worth your time. Again, make sure that you

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<v Speaker 2>do not make the mistake that Massi does, assuming that

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<v Speaker 2>people care about what you care about, and assuming that

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<v Speaker 2>the conflicts which formed you, which okay, may not be

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<v Speaker 2>Ron Paul Revolution, maybe COVID, it may be something else,

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<v Speaker 2>are uniquely applicable because look, the boomers don't get it,

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<v Speaker 2>but also we don't get them, and at least for

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<v Speaker 2>the time being, although maybe for less time than previously anticipated,

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<v Speaker 2>they still matter. It's sort of a I guess, a

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<v Speaker 2>rain on the parade type of podcast, but nonetheless a

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<v Speaker 2>really good one. So as per usual, right find me

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<v Speaker 2>anywhere you listen to podcasts. I'd appreciate reviews. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know if they help, but they do make me laugh,

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<v Speaker 2>so maybe leave a review. Call me a slur in

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<v Speaker 2>my blocket, but I do appreciate it. You can also

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<v Speaker 2>check out our sponsor, Axios Remote Fitness and Coaching jd

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<v Speaker 2>You guys, good work. You should support him also if

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<v Speaker 2>you want the episodes early in ad free the monologues

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<v Speaker 2>two days before everyone else a few bucks a month

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<v Speaker 2>on Patreon, substack er com road. It's uh, how I

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<v Speaker 2>do this without further ado, here's Ron Dodson. All right,

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<v Speaker 2>Ron Dodson, welcome back to the jay Bird and show

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<v Speaker 2>how you doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Man Ah, fantastic, glad to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm glad to have you on. This will serve

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<v Speaker 2>as sort of a companion piece to the last episode

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<v Speaker 2>I did with Carl Dahl talking about Massey's recent primary

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<v Speaker 2>loss in Kentucky, not in Tennessee. I made this mistake

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<v Speaker 2>last time, and several people politely informed me, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know those two states. That's true, they're the same shape,

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<v Speaker 2>they're in the same place. What do you want me

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<v Speaker 2>to say? You're wrong? Is the answer? Not factually, but

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<v Speaker 2>you're back talking a podcaster. Listen and learn in all seriousness, right, Ron,

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<v Speaker 2>When you and I were talking about this, you sent

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<v Speaker 2>me a really interesting article from Compact by Daniel McCarthy

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<v Speaker 2>that we're going to go through and suffice it to say,

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<v Speaker 2>this is very interesting analysis. I don't necessarily agree with

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<v Speaker 2>McCarthy on everything, but it's well written and puts forward

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<v Speaker 2>some really interesting points because I think that, especially for

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<v Speaker 2>the people listening to this show, this election was a referendum,

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<v Speaker 2>referendum on Zionism, and that is partially true, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>especially for younger people, that's what it became. But in

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<v Speaker 2>the co text of the GOP and in the context

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<v Speaker 2>of older voters, that wasn't really the issue at hand.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I spoke with Carl Dole last time, one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things that I brought up is there is

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<v Speaker 2>an assumption that just because you care about something, everyone

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<v Speaker 2>cares about it. And it is true a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 2>particularly older people, reflexively support Israel, but that's not really

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<v Speaker 2>why they voted against Thomas Massey. And so again parts

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<v Speaker 2>of this article I disagree with and I agree with,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's an interesting point and one that I think

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<v Speaker 2>we need to consider. So before we jump into it, Ron,

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<v Speaker 2>is there anything you want to say?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I just full disclosure. Dan's a friend. I really

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<v Speaker 1>like Dan. He's a good guy, but he is. His

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<v Speaker 1>understanding and breadth of knowledge of not only the current

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<v Speaker 1>happenings but the historical factors at play is pretty I

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to say singular, but but he's well up there.

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<v Speaker 1>If you ever listen to his uh his old modern

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<v Speaker 1>age podcast on political philosophy and history, it's fantastic. So

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<v Speaker 1>whether you agree with Dan, and Dan would say if

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<v Speaker 1>he was sitting right here, he would say that, whether

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<v Speaker 1>you agree with Dan or not or his conclusions, I

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<v Speaker 1>think it's he's the type of thinker that's very beneficial

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<v Speaker 1>to go through to see the gears that are turning

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<v Speaker 1>in his head so that we, you know a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of I know you have a younger audience, certainly younger

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<v Speaker 1>than me. These some of the things he's going to

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<v Speaker 1>reference are lived history for me, and I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>good to just kind of get in there, get your uh,

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<v Speaker 1>get your hands dirty in it, and and go through

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<v Speaker 1>it and then be very informed in your agreement or disagreement.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's my encouragement. And uh, and give Dan the

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<v Speaker 1>benefit of the doubt. He really is a good guy

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<v Speaker 1>and he's one of us on the right, but very

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<v Speaker 1>thoughtful guy.

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<v Speaker 2>All right. So without further ado, let's get into it.

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<v Speaker 2>The title is Thomas Massey's dead End Libertarianism. Ten years

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<v Speaker 2>into Donald Trump's takeover of the Republican Party, his opponents

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<v Speaker 2>continue to misunderstand and underestimate him. The defeat of Thomas

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<v Speaker 2>Massey in his contest for renomination to Congress on Tuesday

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<v Speaker 2>is yet more proof of this. Trump is doing exactly

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<v Speaker 2>what his critics a decade ago said needed to be done.

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<v Speaker 2>He's restoring discipline to a party that had become institutionally weak.

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<v Speaker 2>Massey was a symptom of that weakness. He arrived at

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<v Speaker 2>Congress at a time when the GOP was divided and directionless,

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<v Speaker 2>and at first Massey seemed to be part of the

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<v Speaker 2>answer to that party's woes, but the alternative he represented

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<v Speaker 2>was stillborn. For reasons, the Kentucky Congressman supporters and critics

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<v Speaker 2>alike should take the time to understand. Doing so will

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<v Speaker 2>help them appreciate Trump. During the George W. Bush years,

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<v Speaker 2>the Republican Party seemed to have a coherent worldview, one

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<v Speaker 2>derived from a broader consensus among educated Americans. Democrats as

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<v Speaker 2>well as the Republicans had learned to cherish capitalism, though

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<v Speaker 2>leaders in both parties believe government had a benevolent role

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<v Speaker 2>to play in making the best of markets. Bush Republicans

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<v Speaker 2>favored policies to promote home ownership, for example, the cornerstone

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<v Speaker 2>of the opportunity society.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's pause right there. Okay, let's let's let's pause right

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<v Speaker 1>there and come because there's some there's some meat in

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<v Speaker 1>that first In that first paragraph he mentioned several things really. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>He makes an allusion to the rise of the Tea

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<v Speaker 1>Party and why that happened, the fact that people continue

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<v Speaker 1>on the left and the right to underestimate Trump. And

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<v Speaker 1>then this this long term especially if guys, if you

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<v Speaker 1>remember Trump's first term, the call was because because he

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<v Speaker 1>literally had no one to staff his administration. Uh, you

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<v Speaker 1>had to have a strong, coherent party. An old school

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<v Speaker 1>that that for the longest time, the Democrats have done

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<v Speaker 1>a much better job, uh than we have. So uh,

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<v Speaker 1>so let's take that last thing first, Bush, is do

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<v Speaker 1>I mean Bush, listen to me. That's our next point.

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<v Speaker 1>Trump is very much trying to to uh and and

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<v Speaker 1>not always completely coherently, but but he is trying to

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<v Speaker 1>uh make the party of one voice, and that seems

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<v Speaker 1>that's harder on the right than it is the left,

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<v Speaker 1>because the right has always had structurally more diversity than

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<v Speaker 1>the left. Uh. We are the faction of truth and

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<v Speaker 1>truth truth with a small t is often uh a

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<v Speaker 1>product of perspective, and the right has done a better job,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in its more historic leaning branches, has done a

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<v Speaker 1>better job of recognizing that. And so there's there is

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<v Speaker 1>this there is this sense on the right of we

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<v Speaker 1>we ought to have a bigger ideological tint. The problem is,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're going to destroy the old ways that that

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<v Speaker 1>have been that basically the post FDR, pro post war consensus, Leviathan,

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<v Speaker 1>you're gonna have to do it from the point of

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<v Speaker 1>a singular voice. That's Trump's point. He is doing it

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<v Speaker 1>in a messy, pardon pardon the pun way, Uh, but

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<v Speaker 1>that that and everyone on the right was calling for this,

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<v Speaker 1>and now when he's doing it now, people have their

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<v Speaker 1>hands in the air again. I didn't I thought Massey

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<v Speaker 1>was hilarious when he during his concession speech, he said, sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>it took me so long, but I had my opponent

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<v Speaker 1>was in Tel Aviv or something along those lines. That's

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<v Speaker 1>that's funny, and I agree with that, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>there's cost to a unified voice, and and maybe that's it.

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<v Speaker 1>And then we need to remember the reasons for the

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<v Speaker 1>rise of the Tea Party, which Massey was a was

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<v Speaker 1>a part of. It was not a it was not

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<v Speaker 1>a coherent movement at the time. Uh It brought from

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of Massy was kind of like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>uh Ron Paul was hugely popular after after two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and eight for a lot of good reasons. He was

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<v Speaker 1>so honest and such a breath of fresh air. And

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<v Speaker 1>Massey really rode those coattails. And yet that's always going

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<v Speaker 1>to be that perspective is always going to be a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of a a prophetic voice from the outside looking in.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not a you're just not going to rule or

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<v Speaker 1>create a governing coalition from that standpoint, which is what

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<v Speaker 1>the rest of the essay kind of goes on to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about. But I just wanted to stop it right

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<v Speaker 1>there and say, hey, you know, remember the history here,

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<v Speaker 1>and then I don't know if you want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about you know, during the George W. Bush years, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the Republican Party seem to have a coherent worldview. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it had a coherent worldview that we're saying was was wrong,

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<v Speaker 1>one of incredible neo conservative leanings of of of of

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<v Speaker 1>massive cosma, you know, massive cosmopolitanism, of globalism and so

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<v Speaker 1>on and so forth. So, I mean, that's what I've got.

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<v Speaker 1>I just wanted to stop and kind of catch us

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<v Speaker 1>up right there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think it's important to look at this

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<v Speaker 2>and a morally neutral lens. Right. This doesn't mean that

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<v Speaker 2>Thomas Massey personally is a bad guy. Everything he thinks

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<v Speaker 2>is wrong, and that noever empty suit that they put

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<v Speaker 2>a crosserman is the author or you're in my favorite politician,

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<v Speaker 2>not at all. But to say, I like Massy, so,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, and I'm a little more sour on him.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he's kind of annoying. But like that that

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter in this context, right, setting aside personal feel.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I just like gadflies. You know those guys. Those

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<v Speaker 1>guys are fun to listen to. Uh that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>you just gadflies are also gonna be swatted. You have

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<v Speaker 1>to understand that's part of the political game. If you're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna be a gadfly, if you're gonna call the president corrupt,

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<v Speaker 1>which is what that's what sparked this whole war between

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<v Speaker 1>Trump and Massy was the the call of corruption. And

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<v Speaker 1>and Trump may may be corrupt again, that's not what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm on here to talk about. But you're gonna get

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<v Speaker 1>But then you are gonna you are picking a fight.

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<v Speaker 2>So well, like as a as a wise philosopher once said,

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<v Speaker 2>if you're gonna swing at the king, you best not miss.

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<v Speaker 2>Like this is what happens, you know when in chart

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<v Speaker 2>when you challenge a aspiring imperial president, like, you're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>get hit back. Regardless of if I wish that had

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<v Speaker 2>happened or not, who won that conflict? But I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's a really interesting question because and we'll get into

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<v Speaker 2>this a little bit later, but really after Bush, the

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<v Speaker 2>Republican Party and by extension, the right in America is

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<v Speaker 2>in a massive identity crisis. And yes, the author gets

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<v Speaker 2>into this, I just want to sort of lay the

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<v Speaker 2>ground the Tea Party really was a negative identity. It

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<v Speaker 2>is simply not that not Obama and many different people

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<v Speaker 2>were able to project themselves onto not Obama. But if

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<v Speaker 2>you really drill down to it, these were disparate people

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<v Speaker 2>who didn't really have a lot in common. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's particularly important to bear in mind considering what

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<v Speaker 2>is the right now in America. Yeah, sure there's some

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<v Speaker 2>positive vision, a lot of it is at its basis

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<v Speaker 2>anti woke. Now it may have flowered from there, but realistically,

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<v Speaker 2>if we're looking at what ties people together, it's effectively

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<v Speaker 2>that let me carry.

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<v Speaker 1>On, well and think about it real quick, think about

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<v Speaker 1>it theologically in America, we have a history of that.

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<v Speaker 1>We you know, America being at its foundation very waspy

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<v Speaker 1>that p is Protestant, which for a lot of folks,

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<v Speaker 1>not everyone, but for a lot of folks is just

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<v Speaker 1>not Catholic. So there's this this very there's this kind

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<v Speaker 1>of foundational presupposition within a lot of the American electorate

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<v Speaker 1>that it isn't isn't meant to rule avass coalition because

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<v Speaker 1>it is defined negatively. That's just there's a big part

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<v Speaker 1>of that in American politics. So, and I think that'll

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<v Speaker 1>show the further we go down.

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<v Speaker 2>This all right, continuing with the article, the Bush era

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<v Speaker 2>of vision was Reaganism without the rough edges compassionate conservatism.

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<v Speaker 2>The framing is important. This Republican party wanted to be loved,

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<v Speaker 2>even by its enemies. Some might say that applied to

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<v Speaker 2>the foreign policy as well. After nine to eleven, President

415
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.839
<v Speaker 2>Bush made the point of calling Islam a quote religion

416
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 2>of peace unquote. The war he launched in Afghanistan was

417
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.279
<v Speaker 2>not retaliatory. It was swiftly revealed to be an open

418
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:32.039
<v Speaker 2>ended commitment to turning that tribal society into liberal democracy.

419
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:35.319
<v Speaker 2>The war Bush began in Iraq was the same, secure

420
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:37.920
<v Speaker 2>in the knowledge that liberal democracy was both right and

421
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.559
<v Speaker 2>inevitable for the entire planet. Hadn't for Francis Fukuyama said so,

422
00:26:43.119 --> 00:26:46.599
<v Speaker 2>there was no fear that prolonged occupation might prove futile.

423
00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:49.920
<v Speaker 2>Hadn't we turned Japan and West Germany into good democracies

424
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:52.839
<v Speaker 2>after World War II? In fact, faced with a choice

425
00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:55.960
<v Speaker 2>between rebuilding the American way or rebuilding the Soviet way,

426
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.559
<v Speaker 2>those peoples had acted according to their own priorities, not ours.

427
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Afghanistan in the eighties also opted for American aid over

428
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Soviet tyranny, then promptly succumbed to the Taliban Once the

429
00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.319
<v Speaker 2>Soviets were beaten the Bush Republican ideology. Sorry do you

430
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:11.279
<v Speaker 2>want to interview?

431
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, first of all, Japan and in Germany were

432
00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:23.200
<v Speaker 1>you know, fire bombed to the absolute you know, there

433
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:31.160
<v Speaker 1>wasn't much left of of either. We went and made

434
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:38.440
<v Speaker 1>the ideology of Germany illegal and in the denotification made

435
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:45.319
<v Speaker 1>reconstruction look mild. Uh. We in Japan we knuked them twice.

436
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:51.400
<v Speaker 1>I find the you know, from from the beginning, we

437
00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:56.279
<v Speaker 1>did not set out to turn Afghanistan into glass. We

438
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.240
<v Speaker 1>had this and again, I I don't know w Well,

439
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:05.640
<v Speaker 1>I've been around him some, and this matches his personality.

440
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:09.880
<v Speaker 1>This is just he's very much like you know, Barbara was, uh,

441
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:16.200
<v Speaker 1>and he's kind of a affable guy, which is at

442
00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:19.039
<v Speaker 1>least on the surface. He didn't it didn't bother him

443
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:23.440
<v Speaker 1>to kill hundreds of thousands in the process. But there's

444
00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:26.640
<v Speaker 1>this rule. There seemed to be this weird disconnect there

445
00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:35.119
<v Speaker 1>about that. So you know, America's policy going into the

446
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.400
<v Speaker 1>Global War on Terror post nine to eleven was schizophrenic.

447
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:41.480
<v Speaker 2>No, definitely, And I mean you can see exactly why

448
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.640
<v Speaker 2>this this break happened. The party did completely and totally

449
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.839
<v Speaker 2>discredit itself. It sort of blew up any sort of

450
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:54.319
<v Speaker 2>common cultural basis it was running on, and also was

451
00:28:54.359 --> 00:29:01.160
<v Speaker 2>faced with this sort of like rising generational figure of

452
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:06.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, brock Hussein Obama carrying on right, the Bush

453
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Republican ideology was discredited by the Bush Republican party's performance,

454
00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:13.599
<v Speaker 2>couldn't win the wars it started, and the consequence of

455
00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:16.720
<v Speaker 2>promoting easy credit for uncredit worthy home buyers was a

456
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:21.359
<v Speaker 2>housing bubble and catastrophic collapse of major lending institutions. Meanwhile,

457
00:29:21.400 --> 00:29:24.200
<v Speaker 2>it turned out that the capitalism enriching the world in

458
00:29:24.359 --> 00:29:27.759
<v Speaker 2>rich China along with everyone else, even as it diminished

459
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:31.279
<v Speaker 2>the exceptionalism of American wealth, nor did it built door

460
00:29:31.400 --> 00:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>did it win its cultural battles at home. Progressives pursued

461
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:37.759
<v Speaker 2>the imposition of same sex marriage on the entire country

462
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.839
<v Speaker 2>through every means possible, and after they got it, which

463
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:44.279
<v Speaker 2>finally happened during the Obama years, they escalated the struggle

464
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:46.559
<v Speaker 2>to war over the very meaning of the term man

465
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.119
<v Speaker 2>and woman. So a couple things there, right, There were

466
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:54.240
<v Speaker 2>a lot of reasons to hate the neo conservatives. I

467
00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:58.359
<v Speaker 2>One might view them as as traitorous, having divided loyalties,

468
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:01.920
<v Speaker 2>and that's certainly true that cannot be emphasized. But also

469
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:09.119
<v Speaker 2>they lost an immense amount of capital in the Culture War.

470
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.319
<v Speaker 2>The country jerked to the left after they blew up

471
00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.880
<v Speaker 2>the Republican Party. And look, I don't wish they were

472
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:21.359
<v Speaker 2>still in power. I don't wish that Bush or someone

473
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.079
<v Speaker 2>exactly like him had won in eight It's not my

474
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.039
<v Speaker 2>point at all, but to say that's part of the

475
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:33.240
<v Speaker 2>reason they are viewed as anathema because they lost Conservatives

476
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:36.839
<v Speaker 2>a whole lot of ground that can't be overstated. It

477
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:40.400
<v Speaker 2>basically added fuel to the fire right. You have the

478
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:43.880
<v Speaker 2>financial collapse, which pushed a lot of people away from

479
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:48.000
<v Speaker 2>the Party of Big Business. Now we can all acknowledge

480
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:50.519
<v Speaker 2>that turned out to be a shell game. Obama was

481
00:30:50.599 --> 00:30:52.599
<v Speaker 2>just in bed with the banks as anyone else, just

482
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 2>as in bed with the insurance companies as anyone else,

483
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.559
<v Speaker 2>if not more. I'm not saying that that proved to

484
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:01.759
<v Speaker 2>be a wise calculate But this is a point that

485
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:06.519
<v Speaker 2>Scott Horton makes that these foreign wars, these foreign adventures, well,

486
00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:10.359
<v Speaker 2>they cost us a lot. Here it discredited the Christian

487
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:14.000
<v Speaker 2>Conservative to be honest. Even to this day, the kind

488
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:20.240
<v Speaker 2>of like normal conservative evangelical is still measured up against

489
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:24.359
<v Speaker 2>the failures of that era. Right, it did definite damage

490
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:29.200
<v Speaker 2>to the nation, but it also did damage to the

491
00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:33.079
<v Speaker 2>American right. It fractured it. There was no central point

492
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:35.960
<v Speaker 2>around which to rally. Sorry, Ron, I'll throw it back

493
00:31:35.960 --> 00:31:36.920
<v Speaker 2>to you.

494
00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:41.480
<v Speaker 1>No, I just think Dan's line, maybe it's one of

495
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:43.799
<v Speaker 1>two lines that really stood out to me in this

496
00:31:43.880 --> 00:31:47.440
<v Speaker 1>whole piece. But he says when he says it couldn't

497
00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:50.880
<v Speaker 1>win the wars it started, and that seems like just

498
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:54.920
<v Speaker 1>a zinger, but it's not that that hits at the

499
00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:59.920
<v Speaker 1>very essence of the prudence with which this movement was

500
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:05.480
<v Speaker 1>being governed. And you know, philosophically, we can all jump

501
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:11.960
<v Speaker 1>on it because it was overly universal universalists that you know, well,

502
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:18.000
<v Speaker 1>we just had in Liberia hard enough, right, making reference

503
00:32:18.039 --> 00:32:20.960
<v Speaker 1>to the fact that Liberia was given a very American

504
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:25.640
<v Speaker 1>style constitution and that turned into a hell hole. But

505
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:31.000
<v Speaker 1>we could do it this time with with Afghanistan. And

506
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:38.920
<v Speaker 1>I have no problem obviously with us enacting, you know,

507
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:47.200
<v Speaker 1>exacting justice after being attacked. You know, if everything was

508
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:51.759
<v Speaker 1>as it supposedly was. And I'm not a I don't

509
00:32:51.799 --> 00:32:54.200
<v Speaker 1>have any dog in that game. By the way, there's

510
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.720
<v Speaker 1>people way more, way more down the rabbit hole of

511
00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:01.000
<v Speaker 1>all the details of nine to eleven. I'm I was

512
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:05.200
<v Speaker 1>too close, you know. I'd just gotten married and we

513
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.079
<v Speaker 1>were my wife and I were trying to get pregnant

514
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.160
<v Speaker 1>and look for a house, and we just bought a house,

515
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:14.599
<v Speaker 1>and then nine to eleven happens on the way anyway

516
00:33:14.839 --> 00:33:18.279
<v Speaker 1>to a fertility appointment. I mean, I remember it like

517
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:20.519
<v Speaker 1>it was yesterday. It's just too close. And by the

518
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.079
<v Speaker 1>end of the day, I'm thinking about going as a

519
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:27.240
<v Speaker 1>as a thirty four year old guy at the time.

520
00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:29.799
<v Speaker 1>Where can I go in? Is there a way for

521
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:32.880
<v Speaker 1>me to get into OCS as a thirty four year

522
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:37.400
<v Speaker 1>old And so it's a it's just too I'm too

523
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:41.000
<v Speaker 1>close to it still to be able, like some of

524
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:43.359
<v Speaker 1>the younger guys are, to go back and really look

525
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:46.200
<v Speaker 1>into the details of what truly happened. All that to

526
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.119
<v Speaker 1>be said that the war we chose to have, instead

527
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:56.759
<v Speaker 1>of enact exacting justice, which didn't fully happen until until Obama,

528
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:01.599
<v Speaker 1>we decided to create this global war on terror, which

529
00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:05.680
<v Speaker 1>was I think a disaster on every front. So it

530
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.800
<v Speaker 1>and and as Dan says, it couldn't win these wars,

531
00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:13.159
<v Speaker 1>and so there's just a huge lack of prudence that's

532
00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:17.760
<v Speaker 1>on display. And part of that is because there wasn't

533
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:25.039
<v Speaker 1>a unified There wasn't a truly conservative, rightist vision of

534
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:29.800
<v Speaker 1>who the American people were that the government was protecting.

535
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.599
<v Speaker 1>This goes all the way this and so instead we

536
00:34:33.639 --> 00:34:36.880
<v Speaker 1>turned into this ideal that we were trying to fight

537
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.039
<v Speaker 1>for and sorry, that just doesn't work well.

538
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:44.239
<v Speaker 2>And I think that that really you can almost view

539
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Bush as a consequence of the ongoing American identity crisis

540
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:54.639
<v Speaker 2>since Reagan, right, what do we? What are we? After

541
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:59.280
<v Speaker 2>the kind of fallout of Vietnam, the fallout of the

542
00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:03.440
<v Speaker 2>American Empire are looking shaky? Well, Reagan seemed to solve

543
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:06.800
<v Speaker 2>those problems, right, He seemed to provide an answer of well,

544
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:09.880
<v Speaker 2>what are we? And okay, fair enough, that worked in

545
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:12.719
<v Speaker 2>eighty that worked in eighty four, But once we hit

546
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:16.679
<v Speaker 2>the echo right twenty years later, does it still work?

547
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.480
<v Speaker 2>And one of the other questions we'll get to this later.

548
00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.480
<v Speaker 2>I do want to get through this article is obviously

549
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:28.559
<v Speaker 2>what comes after Trump? And you sent me a podcast

550
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:33.760
<v Speaker 2>just briefly featuring the author of this piece in The Spectator,

551
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:37.280
<v Speaker 2>and one of the things that The Spectator, the host

552
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:40.840
<v Speaker 2>of the podcast at the Spectator was saying, is that

553
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.079
<v Speaker 2>it's from his perspective, which I don't necessarily agree with,

554
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:48.320
<v Speaker 2>we're in kind of another seventies right all over again,

555
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:52.760
<v Speaker 2>and the hope is for another Reagan figure. And I

556
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>don't necessarily know if that can be done again for

557
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.000
<v Speaker 2>any number of reasons. But it is interesting if we

558
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:02.599
<v Speaker 2>talk about paradigm shift, something that's come up multiple times recently.

559
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:06.199
<v Speaker 2>Darryl Cooper John Fieldhouse in pee Quinonas did an exceptional

560
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:10.400
<v Speaker 2>episode about exactly this, is that you do get stuck

561
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:13.840
<v Speaker 2>in one for roughly a generation or two, that that

562
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:17.320
<v Speaker 2>is the solution. And it seems as if we are

563
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:21.559
<v Speaker 2>stuck in the paradigm of Reagan really one way or another,

564
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.199
<v Speaker 2>and we haven't shifted out of that point for another time.

565
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:27.119
<v Speaker 2>We'll come back to it later, put a pin in it.

566
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:31.559
<v Speaker 1>I think you're right, and that point about Reagan, again,

567
00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:34.920
<v Speaker 1>Reagan was a negation. He was a negative figure. Everybody

568
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:39.480
<v Speaker 1>talks about his positives, a you know, positive aspect, but

569
00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Reagan was and again, I was a politically active guy

570
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:46.559
<v Speaker 1>when you know, I was in high school in college

571
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:50.480
<v Speaker 1>when Reagan was around, and and it was we're not

572
00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:56.519
<v Speaker 1>we're not this the weak exit from Vietnam. We're not

573
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:02.840
<v Speaker 1>Jimmy Carter. We're not you know, We're not going to

574
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:06.960
<v Speaker 1>lose to the comedies in Russia. And it was it

575
00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:11.239
<v Speaker 1>was very much it was Protestant. It was we're protesting.

576
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:17.079
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't a vision for what America is other than

577
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.559
<v Speaker 1>whoever wants to be, you know. And so I think

578
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:24.760
<v Speaker 1>you're exactly right there. Okay, we can we can move along.

579
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:26.840
<v Speaker 1>We need to do a pod some time on Reagan

580
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.559
<v Speaker 1>because it's it's a bunch of contradictions. Uh and and

581
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:35.440
<v Speaker 1>if you live through the seventies, man, it is something

582
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:39.000
<v Speaker 1>was going to happen because the seventies were weird.

583
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.280
<v Speaker 2>And you almost you almost have to look at Reagan

584
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:48.719
<v Speaker 2>as the fulfillment of Nixon. Again this we're radically outside

585
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.800
<v Speaker 2>of the scope of this article, but in the sense

586
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:56.519
<v Speaker 2>of Nixon was sort of cooed and his bass went

587
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:01.199
<v Speaker 2>on to become the Reagan Beasts. Yes again and yes

588
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.480
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of the to cop a phrase from

589
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:07.079
<v Speaker 2>this article, the rough Edges polished off. If we go

590
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:09.880
<v Speaker 2>down that line of inquiry, we are never going to

591
00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:11.559
<v Speaker 2>finish this article. Put a pen in it.

592
00:38:11.599 --> 00:38:13.719
<v Speaker 1>That's okay, that's it. But we do need to we

593
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:17.000
<v Speaker 1>do need to revisit that, because that's very You're so

594
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:20.800
<v Speaker 1>exactly right, Jay, You're so exactly right. But this article,

595
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.800
<v Speaker 1>I knew this was what would happen, because this article

596
00:38:23.920 --> 00:38:27.239
<v Speaker 1>is so dense and so good and so thought provoking. Again,

597
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:29.599
<v Speaker 1>you don't even have to agree with it. It's just

598
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:33.039
<v Speaker 1>this is what good writing should do. And that's what

599
00:38:33.119 --> 00:38:34.039
<v Speaker 1>I love about Dan.

600
00:38:34.280 --> 00:38:38.599
<v Speaker 2>So, with the failure of Bush Republicanism, what could come next?

601
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:41.960
<v Speaker 2>The pundit class's answer was a nebulous thing called quote

602
00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:47.159
<v Speaker 2>reform conservatism quote. The GOP's activist space preferred the Tea Party,

603
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.400
<v Speaker 2>a fight against Washington's crony capitalism and a return to

604
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:54.719
<v Speaker 2>Reaganism's rough edges. Neither of these post Bush ideologies had

605
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:58.119
<v Speaker 2>much to say about foreign policy. I would slightly object

606
00:38:58.159 --> 00:39:03.519
<v Speaker 2>to that particular, and this wasn't one hundred percent aligned

607
00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:06.960
<v Speaker 2>with the Tea Party, but they were kissing cousins. The

608
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:12.679
<v Speaker 2>explosion of the Ron Paul Revolution was certainly there was

609
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:16.920
<v Speaker 2>a lot of opposition to what we now call the

610
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:20.920
<v Speaker 2>deep state, right the excesses of government spending, but a

611
00:39:20.960 --> 00:39:25.840
<v Speaker 2>lot of it was anti foreign intervention. The idea that

612
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:28.519
<v Speaker 2>we are a country we should care about that, not

613
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:31.000
<v Speaker 2>foreign wars. And a lot of the guys that are

614
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:34.559
<v Speaker 2>sort of in between you and I Ron in Age,

615
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.599
<v Speaker 2>the sort of elder millennial types, cut their teeth there,

616
00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:42.280
<v Speaker 2>like I can think of George Bagbee. A number of

617
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:45.599
<v Speaker 2>other kind of prominent friends of mine who aren't on

618
00:39:45.679 --> 00:39:49.000
<v Speaker 2>the Internet all came up during that era. And there

619
00:39:49.079 --> 00:39:54.239
<v Speaker 2>most definitely was a foreign policy element of anti Bush,

620
00:39:54.320 --> 00:39:57.320
<v Speaker 2>anti Cheney, and I think that's what pushed a lot

621
00:39:57.320 --> 00:40:03.800
<v Speaker 2>of people into libertarianism. Effectively, I'm basically a conservative guy,

622
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:07.800
<v Speaker 2>but I don't want to waste my tax dollars blowing

623
00:40:07.840 --> 00:40:11.960
<v Speaker 2>up children halfway across the world. Right, but Thomas Massey

624
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:14.280
<v Speaker 2>was aligned with a movement that did have a clear

625
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:17.599
<v Speaker 2>vision for foreign as well as domestic policy. In eight,

626
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:20.679
<v Speaker 2>the Texas republished and Congressman Ron Paul had found surprising

627
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:23.880
<v Speaker 2>degree of grassroots support when he mounted a presidential campaign

628
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:28.559
<v Speaker 2>explicitly criticizing the Bush era policy agenda, including the wars.

629
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:31.320
<v Speaker 2>No other GOP contender for the White House dared to

630
00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.559
<v Speaker 2>criticize the eight. Republican Party looked to figures like John

631
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:39.519
<v Speaker 2>McCain and Rudy Giuliani to support a post Bush foreign policy,

632
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:46.360
<v Speaker 2>yet Paul defied them and propounded an alternative. His strictly

633
00:40:46.400 --> 00:40:49.239
<v Speaker 2>non interventionist views were of a piece with his opposition

634
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.960
<v Speaker 2>to virtually all domestic federal activity beyond what the strictest

635
00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:57.400
<v Speaker 2>interpretation of the Constitution would allow. Republicans didn't adopt Paul's

636
00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:00.559
<v Speaker 2>view and mass, but with Democrats and fully control of

637
00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:03.599
<v Speaker 2>Congress since the six midterms and Barack Obama in the

638
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:07.559
<v Speaker 2>White House, a strictly oppositionist ideology could find a niche

639
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.559
<v Speaker 2>in the GOP. The twenty ten midterms brought in a

640
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:13.800
<v Speaker 2>wave of new Tea Party Republicans into office, and along

641
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:16.239
<v Speaker 2>with them came a handful of more or less explicitly

642
00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Ron Paul Republicans, including the congressman's son Rand who was

643
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:23.719
<v Speaker 2>elected to the US Senate from Kentucky two years later.

644
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.199
<v Speaker 2>With Obama on his way to reelection and the Republican

645
00:41:26.239 --> 00:41:29.440
<v Speaker 2>Party at such a loss for leadership, Mitt Romney would

646
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:33.880
<v Speaker 2>be its most would be the most its presidential primaries

647
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:37.760
<v Speaker 2>could produce. Thomas Massey won a special election and subsequently

648
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:40.920
<v Speaker 2>a full term in the US House, overlapping only briefly

649
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:45.119
<v Speaker 2>with Ron Paul, who retired in January twenty thirteen. Anything

650
00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>to add to that history.

651
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Ron No, but you're saying again this very this returning

652
00:41:52.239 --> 00:42:00.679
<v Speaker 1>motif of opposition as opposed to a pause, a vision

653
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:07.360
<v Speaker 1>for what you are. This is, you know, this is

654
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:11.239
<v Speaker 1>the post FDR right in America, except for I really

655
00:42:11.239 --> 00:42:14.599
<v Speaker 1>think Nixon did have a vision. But that's again beyond

656
00:42:14.639 --> 00:42:18.000
<v Speaker 1>the scope of this which you're saying, the right being

657
00:42:18.760 --> 00:42:22.320
<v Speaker 1>defined by what it isn't not what it is.

658
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.679
<v Speaker 2>McCain had not supplied any new vision for the Republican Party,

659
00:42:26.719 --> 00:42:29.960
<v Speaker 2>and Mitt Romney likewise failed to do so. The Tea

660
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:33.800
<v Speaker 2>Party was an exercise and negative partisanship, anti Obama, an

661
00:42:33.800 --> 00:42:38.320
<v Speaker 2>anti Democrat, but a leaderless movement that couldn't steer a party,

662
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:42.039
<v Speaker 2>only complicate the efforts of anyone else attempting to do so.

663
00:42:42.559 --> 00:42:46.199
<v Speaker 2>The House GOP was itself effectively leaderless for a decade,

664
00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:50.840
<v Speaker 2>cycling through a series of speakers John Brenner, Paul Ryan,

665
00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:54.119
<v Speaker 2>Kevin McCarthy, who were despised by and had good reason

666
00:42:54.199 --> 00:42:57.880
<v Speaker 2>to fear, the party's backbenchers. The House GOP caucus was

667
00:42:57.880 --> 00:43:00.920
<v Speaker 2>a riot of factions, none of which possess enough authority

668
00:43:00.920 --> 00:43:03.880
<v Speaker 2>to wield power. The Senate was a little better if

669
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:06.480
<v Speaker 2>Mitch McConnell's long tenure as Republican leader in the upper

670
00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:11.280
<v Speaker 2>chamber was secure. Individual senators increasingly became brands unto themselves.

671
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:14.159
<v Speaker 2>The party division were on full display in the twenty

672
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:17.360
<v Speaker 2>sixteen presidential primaries clout it up with so many candidates

673
00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:19.920
<v Speaker 2>the debates had to be broken up into separate tiers

674
00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:24.519
<v Speaker 2>based on polling. Interesting point there.

675
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:29.320
<v Speaker 1>I do too the history. This is when this is

676
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.119
<v Speaker 1>the first time you really see that individual party members,

677
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:36.440
<v Speaker 1>especially on the Senate side, because they have such a

678
00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:40.239
<v Speaker 1>longer run, and it's so many more people in the

679
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:43.960
<v Speaker 1>populous states, so many more people voting for them, they

680
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:49.480
<v Speaker 1>became personalities unto themselves who could go directly to the people.

681
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:53.679
<v Speaker 1>They didn't even they didn't have to have time on

682
00:43:53.800 --> 00:44:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Fox or CNN or whatever. With the Internet and these personalities,

683
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:07.960
<v Speaker 1>you began to see this atomization of this factionalization of

684
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:12.000
<v Speaker 1>even within the party, of these of these personalities, and

685
00:44:12.079 --> 00:44:16.400
<v Speaker 1>so you got these different brands that really came to

686
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:18.239
<v Speaker 1>prominence in this period.

687
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:20.679
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think that that is a synthesis of many

688
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:24.480
<v Speaker 2>things at once. One obviously the explosion of social media,

689
00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:28.239
<v Speaker 2>and there's always been posturing for the camera. You see

690
00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:32.199
<v Speaker 2>this in Senate nominations in particular, but really any time

691
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:35.159
<v Speaker 2>right that people have a chance to grill a witness

692
00:44:35.239 --> 00:44:38.079
<v Speaker 2>or whatever. But with the birth of social media, and

693
00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:43.199
<v Speaker 2>that really exploded. Obviously, you know Obama leveraged that heavily,

694
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:46.679
<v Speaker 2>but really in twenty sixteen, that is when we see

695
00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:51.320
<v Speaker 2>the explosion of conservative politics online and effectively, what we've

696
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:53.559
<v Speaker 2>also seen is that if you can get a big

697
00:44:53.679 --> 00:44:56.960
<v Speaker 2>enough following, you have a golden parachute for good or

698
00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:00.440
<v Speaker 2>for ill. If you become an infamous or fai amus

699
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:05.039
<v Speaker 2>congressman or senator, you can become a figure in conservative media.

700
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Matt Gates, Marjorie Taylor Green, any number of people have

701
00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:11.559
<v Speaker 2>done this, and so setting aside whether I like or

702
00:45:11.559 --> 00:45:15.199
<v Speaker 2>dislike those figures, it's not important. That's an incentive. It's

703
00:45:15.239 --> 00:45:19.519
<v Speaker 2>a major incentive, especially when there is no central leadership,

704
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:23.679
<v Speaker 2>there is no party line per se. It's dog eat dog,

705
00:45:23.840 --> 00:45:27.119
<v Speaker 2>everyone out for themselves, and there is an incentive to

706
00:45:27.199 --> 00:45:33.320
<v Speaker 2>differentiate yourself because well, that's how you get paid rand.

707
00:45:33.400 --> 00:45:40.719
<v Speaker 1>It's very contra it's very contra party because differentiation by

708
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.039
<v Speaker 1>its very definition and differentiation that's just you're talking about,

709
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:50.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, Harvard Business School, competitive advantage kind of stuff.

710
00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:52.599
<v Speaker 1>How do you carve out your place on the market.

711
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:57.360
<v Speaker 1>It's through differentiation. That's not how you have a successful party.

712
00:45:57.440 --> 00:46:01.360
<v Speaker 2>Though certainly brand poll is one of the year's contenders,

713
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:05.960
<v Speaker 2>he deluded his father's uncompromising libertarianism and performed worse than

714
00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:09.199
<v Speaker 2>his father had in eight or twenty twelve. Ron Paul

715
00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:12.480
<v Speaker 2>light wasn't what the GOP was looking for then or now.

716
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:16.360
<v Speaker 2>Ron Paul's appeal from the beginning had been his unwillingness

717
00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:19.159
<v Speaker 2>to compromise, and therefore his freedom to criticize anyone and

718
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:22.159
<v Speaker 2>everyone else in the party. This was a necessary function

719
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:24.199
<v Speaker 2>at a time when the party had to be forced

720
00:46:24.199 --> 00:46:26.920
<v Speaker 2>to confront its failures as the Party of the Bushes,

721
00:46:27.320 --> 00:46:29.760
<v Speaker 2>and when it kept trying to avoid that confrontation by

722
00:46:29.800 --> 00:46:33.280
<v Speaker 2>nominating a McCain in a Romney. But most Republican voters

723
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:36.159
<v Speaker 2>to stay nothing of. Lawmakers were never going to accept

724
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Paul's strictly libertarian constitutionalism as their own paradigm, which I

725
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:43.519
<v Speaker 2>think is something that a lot of libertarians right now

726
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:47.960
<v Speaker 2>don't want to admit. Look, there's a lot of cases

727
00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:51.320
<v Speaker 2>where doctor Paul is right He's a great guy, and

728
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:54.639
<v Speaker 2>he is what I wish America could have become. But

729
00:46:54.679 --> 00:46:58.159
<v Speaker 2>it's not going to work functionally. This system is too

730
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:01.960
<v Speaker 2>far away from his vision. It can't be bent into that,

731
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:06.880
<v Speaker 2>especially not with a libertarian attitude towards power. I will

732
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.480
<v Speaker 2>leave that there. Draw your own conclusions.

733
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.480
<v Speaker 1>No, Okay, well I'm I'm not gonna leave it there.

734
00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:17.360
<v Speaker 1>You're exactly right, the libertarian This is because I love

735
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:22.880
<v Speaker 1>I voted for Ron Paul in O eight uh and

736
00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:28.079
<v Speaker 1>uh so uh. I you know I was reading Misis

737
00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:32.840
<v Speaker 1>in college and Hayek and and and so forth. The

738
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:38.039
<v Speaker 1>uh the libertarian paradox, which the only author I've known

739
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:41.920
<v Speaker 1>who really deals with it is Hoppa and then Jarvin.

740
00:47:42.039 --> 00:47:47.960
<v Speaker 1>But Yarvin is Hopa Part two basically is that you

741
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:54.760
<v Speaker 1>must uh liber that that liberty and that that faithfulness

742
00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:59.079
<v Speaker 1>to that founding ideal. And I'm not speaking of an

743
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:03.960
<v Speaker 1>a Jafa sense, So I'm speaking in a Hamiltonian, Washington sense,

744
00:48:04.159 --> 00:48:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Madisonian sense can only be done within the walled garden

745
00:48:09.239 --> 00:48:14.199
<v Speaker 1>of a protective, extremely powerful Article two Executive. Hapa goes

746
00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:19.920
<v Speaker 1>so far to say, basically a king because only then

747
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:24.360
<v Speaker 1>libertarianism in and of itself excused power too much, and

748
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:28.480
<v Speaker 1>you've got to have someone someone has to bear the sword,

749
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:33.639
<v Speaker 1>the political sword. And this is the again, this is

750
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:37.119
<v Speaker 1>the libertarian paradox. Okay, so you didn't have to say

751
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:37.559
<v Speaker 1>it I did.

752
00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:43.000
<v Speaker 2>This left Congress's handful of hardline liberty Republicans in limbo.

753
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:46.280
<v Speaker 2>They moved towards the mainstream, as Rand Paul did. They

754
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:48.920
<v Speaker 2>became difficult to distinguish from every other want to be

755
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Ronald Reagan, with foreign policy being the clearest difference, but

756
00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:57.920
<v Speaker 2>one few voters cared about the isolation cared but excuse me,

757
00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:01.280
<v Speaker 2>with foreign policy being the clear difference, but one few

758
00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:05.519
<v Speaker 2>voters cared about in isolation. This worked to Massey's benefit

759
00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:08.039
<v Speaker 2>in the House. He may have been much less intervention

760
00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:13.159
<v Speaker 2>interventionists than the typical Republican, including the typical Kentucky GOP voter,

761
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:16.280
<v Speaker 2>but that wasn't something that mattered much in an ordinary

762
00:49:16.360 --> 00:49:20.679
<v Speaker 2>primary or red state general election. Conventional wisdom among Trump's

763
00:49:20.679 --> 00:49:24.440
<v Speaker 2>detractors says he only won the twenty sixteen nomination because

764
00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:27.840
<v Speaker 2>the Republican field was so divided, But the field was,

765
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:30.400
<v Speaker 2>of course no more divided for Trump than it was

766
00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:33.760
<v Speaker 2>for every other candidate. Why shouldn't someone else have succeeded

767
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:36.159
<v Speaker 2>because of the large field. The most that can be

768
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:38.559
<v Speaker 2>said for this canard is that too many candidates were

769
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:41.079
<v Speaker 2>all trying to be the same thing, while Donald Trump

770
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:45.679
<v Speaker 2>defiantly stone stood alone in being different. Yet even that

771
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:47.599
<v Speaker 2>would not have helped if he hadn't been different in

772
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:51.000
<v Speaker 2>the ways that voters liked. They liked his hardline views

773
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.880
<v Speaker 2>on immigration. They liked his willingness to denounce the Bush

774
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:56.800
<v Speaker 2>foreign policy in terms hardly less vivid than Ron Paul

775
00:49:56.840 --> 00:49:59.599
<v Speaker 2>had once used. Though Trump's objections were not about whether

776
00:49:59.599 --> 00:50:03.119
<v Speaker 2>the wars were constitutional, but about why they weren't won.

777
00:50:03.719 --> 00:50:07.599
<v Speaker 1>So these two paragraphs, I thine, so so good.

778
00:50:08.000 --> 00:50:13.119
<v Speaker 2>Look several things here. One the point about your or

779
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:16.360
<v Speaker 2>my personal foreign policy preference and the electorate is one

780
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:21.559
<v Speaker 2>we sort of need to institutionalize. There are many, many people,

781
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:25.079
<v Speaker 2>especially in the anti war movement, who I consider friends

782
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:29.360
<v Speaker 2>who are morally or constitutionally opposed to war.

783
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:30.440
<v Speaker 1>I'm not.

784
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:34.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm a you know, a cold hearted, you know, just

785
00:50:34.519 --> 00:50:35.920
<v Speaker 2>soulless reactionary on.

786
00:50:35.880 --> 00:50:37.280
<v Speaker 1>That you you really are.

787
00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:42.320
<v Speaker 2>But for most people it comes down to winning or losing,

788
00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:47.920
<v Speaker 2>and America likes winners. It's why the Maduro raid. Was

789
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:52.679
<v Speaker 2>it unconstitutional one hundred percent? Was it morally right? Up

790
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:56.920
<v Speaker 2>for debate, But it was a win. Our guys got

791
00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:00.639
<v Speaker 2>him and paraded him through the street. That's awesome. That

792
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.480
<v Speaker 2>makes you look good. And look were our wars in

793
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:08.920
<v Speaker 2>the Middle East disastrous? One hundred percent? They were. Many

794
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:14.199
<v Speaker 2>people died, tens of thousands committed suicide, didn't get anything

795
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:18.960
<v Speaker 2>we wanted to And that matters more than functionally the

796
00:51:19.000 --> 00:51:23.199
<v Speaker 2>moral implication. That matters more than, to be honest, the

797
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:27.239
<v Speaker 2>budget deficit. That is what is the operative concern winning

798
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:31.039
<v Speaker 2>or losing. Now that's not how I view things, but

799
00:51:31.119 --> 00:51:34.400
<v Speaker 2>in a functional how do people feel about this? That's

800
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:36.599
<v Speaker 2>really what matters. And is there such a thing as

801
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:39.920
<v Speaker 2>a pyrrhic victory one hundred percent? Like that's not what

802
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about either, But that's really what matters. And

803
00:51:42.960 --> 00:51:47.519
<v Speaker 2>that's why I think Trump's early anti interventionism was so popular,

804
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:52.360
<v Speaker 2>because it fed into the general feeling that we're being screwed.

805
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:57.119
<v Speaker 2>This country isn't cool anymore, it isn't winning any and

806
00:51:57.199 --> 00:52:01.159
<v Speaker 2>so it is a mistake to assume that because Trump

807
00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:04.920
<v Speaker 2>was popular for anti interventionism, this sort of piece of

808
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:09.840
<v Speaker 2>policy is equally as popular. And again this is not

809
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.559
<v Speaker 2>my opinion what I would like to see America doing,

810
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:14.360
<v Speaker 2>but his analysis holds up.

811
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:19.079
<v Speaker 1>Ron I just I think it's so clear to remember

812
00:52:19.119 --> 00:52:24.800
<v Speaker 1>these things that Trump didn't win because the field was divided.

813
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:29.480
<v Speaker 1>He won because he was he differentiated himself in ways

814
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:35.519
<v Speaker 1>that voters cared about immigration, trade being you know, calling

815
00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:39.920
<v Speaker 1>out the Bush foreign policy failures, elite betrayal, and that

816
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:43.840
<v Speaker 1>you know, national humiliation. Just like you're talking about, the

817
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:49.840
<v Speaker 1>electorate loves winners, not and it's not just because they're winners.

818
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:54.960
<v Speaker 1>It's because the winning is that which proves the prudence

819
00:52:55.159 --> 00:52:58.280
<v Speaker 1>of the decision. You. You know, there's the old saw

820
00:52:58.480 --> 00:53:02.400
<v Speaker 1>in competitive in team sports that you can only you

821
00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:05.079
<v Speaker 1>can only beat the teams that are on your schedule.

822
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.920
<v Speaker 1>The US is the global Hedgemen. We picked the schedule,

823
00:53:09.559 --> 00:53:12.800
<v Speaker 1>so you've got to win your game. Every game is

824
00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.039
<v Speaker 1>a home game. You picked it, and and other than

825
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:20.440
<v Speaker 1>I guess nine to eleven. But we chose how to

826
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:24.760
<v Speaker 1>to to prosecute that justice, so to speak, and we

827
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:29.920
<v Speaker 1>chose poorly. We chose to Uh. I think this even

828
00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:35.320
<v Speaker 1>goes back the preseason was go four one, you know,

829
00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:40.800
<v Speaker 1>and was that was that in hindsight, you know, moral

830
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.679
<v Speaker 1>and prudent, and did we do everything we needed to

831
00:53:43.719 --> 00:53:46.159
<v Speaker 1>do there once we got in, you know, everybody we did.

832
00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:49.840
<v Speaker 1>We chose not to go to Baghdad once we destroyed

833
00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:52.519
<v Speaker 1>every bit of military hardware they'd had, and that again

834
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the government. You know, I'm not a big mass democracy guy,

835
00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:03.039
<v Speaker 1>rather obviously, but I also know that the electorate isn't

836
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:08.440
<v Speaker 1>so dumb as to not connect winning with the what

837
00:54:08.519 --> 00:54:13.679
<v Speaker 1>it takes to win, and so, you know, I really

838
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:18.440
<v Speaker 1>think that's hugely key. And then I think Dan describes

839
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:22.320
<v Speaker 1>Trump's worldview here. Trump thinks in terms of winners and losers.

840
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:27.480
<v Speaker 1>That applies to wars, and then that translates to trade, immigration,

841
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:35.000
<v Speaker 1>political races, television framing, real estate. All of that is connected.

842
00:54:35.639 --> 00:54:39.840
<v Speaker 1>And so I just I think this is kind of

843
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:41.280
<v Speaker 1>the key section of this.

844
00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:46.239
<v Speaker 2>Trump's politics is cohesive. They're not in the way well

845
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:50.199
<v Speaker 2>educated ideologics expect. Trump sees the world in terms of

846
00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:53.280
<v Speaker 2>winners and losers, and those categories apply to go to

847
00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:55.960
<v Speaker 2>the global economy as well as to real estate deals,

848
00:54:56.000 --> 00:55:01.199
<v Speaker 2>television ratings, and political races and wars. Americans have been

849
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:04.400
<v Speaker 2>turned into losers by their leaders and the Republican Party

850
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:08.199
<v Speaker 2>in particular, has been played for suckers. Trump promised to

851
00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:11.960
<v Speaker 2>change that. He would restrict immigration, conduct foreign policy along

852
00:55:12.039 --> 00:55:14.920
<v Speaker 2>different lines, and give up worrying about how to be

853
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:18.760
<v Speaker 2>a kindler, gentler Reaganite. He was prepared to be neither.

854
00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:22.039
<v Speaker 2>He would abandon small government rhetoric as well as claptrap

855
00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:24.960
<v Speaker 2>about how diversity is our strength. He didn't care if

856
00:55:25.000 --> 00:55:28.840
<v Speaker 2>he gave offense. Neither did the voters. He supplied a

857
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:32.039
<v Speaker 2>new vision for the party, one just as well adapted

858
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:35.079
<v Speaker 2>to the era of globalism as the Bush Republicanism that

859
00:55:35.119 --> 00:55:38.199
<v Speaker 2>came before. Only this vision was adapted to the dark

860
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:41.119
<v Speaker 2>side of globalism, not the hopes and pipe dreams of

861
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:43.880
<v Speaker 2>the late nineties. The Tea Party in the Ron Paul

862
00:55:44.000 --> 00:55:47.559
<v Speaker 2>inspired Liberty Republican movement of the twenty tens have been

863
00:55:47.639 --> 00:55:51.880
<v Speaker 2>galvanized by the financial crisis, but MAGA was animated by

864
00:55:51.920 --> 00:55:54.760
<v Speaker 2>the crisis of globalism itself, the question of what a

865
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:57.360
<v Speaker 2>nation could even mean in a world of mass migration

866
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:01.440
<v Speaker 2>and fully mobile capital. There might well be another financial crisis,

867
00:56:01.480 --> 00:56:04.639
<v Speaker 2>but the crisis of globalization is ongoing. Though it may

868
00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:07.800
<v Speaker 2>be more salient and sometimes than others, it never goes away,

869
00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:10.960
<v Speaker 2>and I think that this is a really important point.

870
00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:18.480
<v Speaker 2>Trump is often, i guess, criticized from all angles, and

871
00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:24.800
<v Speaker 2>there's this idea, particularly among the sort of liberal establishment

872
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:29.679
<v Speaker 2>and also the kind of neo conservatives, that once he's gone,

873
00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:35.400
<v Speaker 2>we can go back to normal. Right, that's done. Globalism

874
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:38.400
<v Speaker 2>is in crisis. It's plain to see. I mean, even

875
00:56:38.400 --> 00:56:41.360
<v Speaker 2>look at the news out of Iran. Globalism is in

876
00:56:41.440 --> 00:56:44.400
<v Speaker 2>a bad spot. And sure a system takes a long

877
00:56:44.440 --> 00:56:47.960
<v Speaker 2>time to break down, but it is breaking down. I mean, look,

878
00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:52.599
<v Speaker 2>even Biden realized that we needed to enshore critical parts

879
00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.679
<v Speaker 2>of our defense infrastructure, and you could not say that

880
00:56:55.719 --> 00:56:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Biden was a Trumpian figure. Clearly this is simply this

881
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:04.199
<v Speaker 2>is the win, Like, this is what is happening and

882
00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:08.079
<v Speaker 2>in my mind, and we've referenced a couple times this

883
00:57:09.639 --> 00:57:12.760
<v Speaker 2>podcast from the Spectator, which is quite good. The author

884
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:16.440
<v Speaker 2>conducts himself well, but the host and the other man

885
00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:21.559
<v Speaker 2>across from him are both Tories. Right, they are talking

886
00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:25.639
<v Speaker 2>about how kemmy badenoch a woman. I have strong opinions

887
00:57:25.639 --> 00:57:27.920
<v Speaker 2>about that. I will not be going into for the

888
00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:31.239
<v Speaker 2>sake of my YouTube channel. Will serve as a THATCHERI right,

889
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:33.000
<v Speaker 2>we'll serve as a way to write the ship and

890
00:57:33.039 --> 00:57:37.199
<v Speaker 2>get back to normal. But fundamentally, the material conditions have changed.

891
00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:40.679
<v Speaker 2>We no longer live in a world where globalism is

892
00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:43.280
<v Speaker 2>possible in the same way, and so regardless of what

893
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:46.480
<v Speaker 2>happens of Trump and what happens to MEGA, there's no

894
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:50.079
<v Speaker 2>real going back to normal, at least from my perspective.

895
00:57:49.639 --> 00:57:54.320
<v Speaker 1>On Yeah, I think the language here is correct. Globalism

896
00:57:54.360 --> 00:57:57.280
<v Speaker 1>in and of itself is a crisis. It's anti human

897
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:04.079
<v Speaker 1>and it's that's being made evident or it's being enforced

898
00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:09.079
<v Speaker 1>by the fact the very simple fact that we can't

899
00:58:09.119 --> 00:58:12.920
<v Speaker 1>project power closer than the strike range of you know,

900
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:16.559
<v Speaker 1>of the radio the combat radius of our strike packages.

901
00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:22.000
<v Speaker 1>And so you are going to be forced into a

902
00:58:23.079 --> 00:58:29.280
<v Speaker 1>sphere of influence, more natural, more human model where there

903
00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:32.119
<v Speaker 1>are just different parts of the world, the continents will be.

904
00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:35.239
<v Speaker 1>It won't be back like it was, you know, in

905
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:38.159
<v Speaker 1>the Middle Ages, but it will be more way more

906
00:58:38.239 --> 00:58:41.800
<v Speaker 1>so than it is than it is now. And this

907
00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:47.079
<v Speaker 1>crisis of globalism is a the fact that it erodes

908
00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:56.400
<v Speaker 1>what makes people unique is I'm I think I think

909
00:58:56.639 --> 00:59:01.000
<v Speaker 1>the the even the non online right are starting to

910
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:06.760
<v Speaker 1>see that. Are you know, it's a you just want

911
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:12.440
<v Speaker 1>to live your own way. That's fundamentally, that's fundamentally conservative,

912
00:59:12.480 --> 00:59:16.159
<v Speaker 1>or at least fundamentally of the right, that that we

913
00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:19.119
<v Speaker 1>need to be able to find our own way. And

914
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:24.559
<v Speaker 1>this erosion is uh. I'm not saying anything. Your audience,

915
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:27.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, doesn't. We're all singing from the same hymn book.

916
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:31.599
<v Speaker 1>But the but the but what is needed, and what

917
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:35.599
<v Speaker 1>Trump has brought is an ability to convey that in

918
00:59:35.679 --> 00:59:40.079
<v Speaker 1>a way that the bottom half of the electric can understand.

919
00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:45.000
<v Speaker 1>It's not just about cheap TVs at Costco, especially when

920
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:47.960
<v Speaker 1>at Costco it looks like this, you know, a scene

921
00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:53.679
<v Speaker 1>from Star Wars CANTEENA so okay, I probably said bad things.

922
00:59:54.000 --> 00:59:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Sorry. The Republican Party was a mess when Trump found it,

923
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:00.880
<v Speaker 2>and it resisted his efforts to set it in. He

924
01:00:01.000 --> 01:00:04.239
<v Speaker 2>was unprepared for how disloyal members of his own administration

925
01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:07.360
<v Speaker 2>would prove to be. The weakness that had characterized the

926
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:10.880
<v Speaker 2>Republican Party since eight if not earlier, had given rise

927
01:00:10.960 --> 01:00:14.719
<v Speaker 2>to factions, interests, and personalities that all pursued their own agendas.

928
01:00:15.159 --> 01:00:19.320
<v Speaker 2>The ghost of Bush Republicanism had not yet been completely exercised.

929
01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:24.559
<v Speaker 2>Failed attempts at replacing Bushism still haunted the party, too

930
01:00:25.239 --> 01:00:27.320
<v Speaker 2>unable to win over the party as a whole, but

931
01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:30.599
<v Speaker 2>defiant of any attempt by stronger leadership to bring order

932
01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:33.760
<v Speaker 2>to the party's wilderness. Trump had a tough time in

933
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:36.440
<v Speaker 2>his first term as a result, and his party suffered

934
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:40.639
<v Speaker 2>staggering losses in the twenty eighteen midterms, though Bush, Clinton,

935
01:00:41.079 --> 01:00:44.719
<v Speaker 2>George W. Bush, and Barack Obama had all suffered disastrous

936
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:47.880
<v Speaker 2>midterms of their own. Not only was it incumbent on

937
01:00:47.920 --> 01:00:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Trump to restore party discipline, it was the duty of

938
01:00:50.920 --> 01:00:53.079
<v Speaker 2>factions within the party to help him to do so,

939
01:00:53.199 --> 01:00:55.239
<v Speaker 2>a duty they owed to themselves as much as to

940
01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:58.599
<v Speaker 2>the party's voters and the country. The hard work confronting

941
01:00:58.639 --> 01:01:02.159
<v Speaker 2>libertarian leaning Republics was to find its place where they

942
01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:05.320
<v Speaker 2>and their principles could fit in the remade party. That

943
01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:07.920
<v Speaker 2>was work that would require compromise in the near term

944
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:11.159
<v Speaker 2>to realize long term objectives. And nowhere was that more

945
01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:14.639
<v Speaker 2>true than foreign policy, where the path to a less interventionists,

946
01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:19.039
<v Speaker 2>if not non interventionist, disposition, would not be a straight line.

947
01:01:19.480 --> 01:01:22.519
<v Speaker 2>Liberty minded Republicans would also have to make their voters'

948
01:01:22.519 --> 01:01:26.800
<v Speaker 2>priorities their own. Massey wasn't an open borders libertarian, and

949
01:01:26.840 --> 01:01:29.880
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't beaten by Ed Gallrain on Tuesday because he

950
01:01:29.960 --> 01:01:34.440
<v Speaker 2>refused to support Everify. But Massey hadn't made himself seem

951
01:01:34.519 --> 01:01:38.559
<v Speaker 2>indispensable to the immigration restrictionists in the party space. He

952
01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:41.480
<v Speaker 2>had made himself the poster boy for balancing the budget.

953
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:44.800
<v Speaker 2>That wasn't what voters cared about the most, nor were

954
01:01:44.800 --> 01:01:48.199
<v Speaker 2>the Epstein files, who release was another cause Massy made

955
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:51.559
<v Speaker 2>himself synonymous with. So I think the immigration point he

956
01:01:51.639 --> 01:01:55.559
<v Speaker 2>brings up is vital and on the Epstein issue that

957
01:01:55.719 --> 01:01:59.320
<v Speaker 2>is highly stratified by age. That is an issue that

958
01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:03.400
<v Speaker 2>matters two younger people more so than older people. And

959
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:08.480
<v Speaker 2>Trump twenty twenty four base was a weird synthesis. And

960
01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:12.320
<v Speaker 2>the podcast bros, the more conspiracy minded that care a

961
01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:15.320
<v Speaker 2>lot about Epstein, that care a lot about JFK. They

962
01:02:15.360 --> 01:02:17.719
<v Speaker 2>are a part of that base, don't get me wrong,

963
01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:20.159
<v Speaker 2>But they are not the sort of base that wins

964
01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:24.360
<v Speaker 2>you a primary in Kentucky. And that's important to remember now,

965
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Don't get me wrong. Do I think if Massey had

966
01:02:28.079 --> 01:02:30.960
<v Speaker 2>been stronger on immigration, or at least publicly, if he

967
01:02:31.039 --> 01:02:33.280
<v Speaker 2>hadn't gone after the president, would he still have his job?

968
01:02:33.719 --> 01:02:37.199
<v Speaker 2>Quite possibly, Look maybe the Israel lobby hated him so

969
01:02:37.320 --> 01:02:42.679
<v Speaker 2>much because of his comments on foreign wards and also

970
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:46.480
<v Speaker 2>the Epstein stuff. That's definitely possible. But I think we

971
01:02:46.559 --> 01:02:49.800
<v Speaker 2>have to admit that as much money as APAC dumped

972
01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:52.239
<v Speaker 2>into this, Massey did a lot of the work on

973
01:02:52.239 --> 01:02:53.800
<v Speaker 2>his own. He made him.

974
01:02:53.639 --> 01:02:59.159
<v Speaker 1>Three three thousand dollars per vote, which is absurd, genuine,

975
01:02:59.159 --> 01:03:02.840
<v Speaker 1>it is absurd and completely unsustainable.

976
01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:06.480
<v Speaker 2>Unsustainable, and it creates a major problem for a pack

977
01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:09.320
<v Speaker 2>in the Israel lobby. This is something else I think

978
01:03:09.360 --> 01:03:13.679
<v Speaker 2>that's important to mention in this UH. Much like the ADL,

979
01:03:14.480 --> 01:03:19.800
<v Speaker 2>much like you cars for kids, much like the crs UH.

980
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:23.760
<v Speaker 2>A lot of these things really depend on not being

981
01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:27.039
<v Speaker 2>plainly visible to the public. And at the point where

982
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:31.559
<v Speaker 2>Massey made the claim that Israel has an undue amount

983
01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:35.519
<v Speaker 2>of influence and then the Israel lobby dumps three thousand

984
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:38.360
<v Speaker 2>dollars of voter to make sure that he doesn't win,

985
01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:41.519
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you kicked him out of his role, but

986
01:03:41.639 --> 01:03:46.039
<v Speaker 2>did you prove him wrong? Right? And this is another important.

987
01:03:45.599 --> 01:03:50.400
<v Speaker 1>Part well, and for me, the key another key point

988
01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:54.800
<v Speaker 1>that's being made here is the the the the you

989
01:03:54.840 --> 01:03:57.679
<v Speaker 1>have a fork in the road that you have to

990
01:03:57.800 --> 01:03:59.880
<v Speaker 1>choose do you want to be Joe Kent or do

991
01:03:59.960 --> 01:04:03.320
<v Speaker 1>you want to be Tulsi Gabbard? And there are great

992
01:04:04.360 --> 01:04:11.800
<v Speaker 1>arguments for both sides, but don't expect your head coach

993
01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:16.480
<v Speaker 1>to support the guy who isn't a team player. Again,

994
01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:19.639
<v Speaker 1>I love Joe Kent. I think Joe's been. I think

995
01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:24.320
<v Speaker 1>Joe has has been. Uh. He's a great follow on X.

996
01:04:24.360 --> 01:04:27.880
<v Speaker 1>If you don't follow him, you need to. But he

997
01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:33.800
<v Speaker 1>chose to leave in auh and and take his chance

998
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:37.880
<v Speaker 1>as being more influential outside the game. But and he

999
01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:41.960
<v Speaker 1>knew what he was doing. Tulsi has decided to stay

1000
01:04:41.960 --> 01:04:47.679
<v Speaker 1>inside and play, you know, be an influenced there. The

1001
01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:51.280
<v Speaker 1>most would say Tulsi's been pretty much sidelined, especially since

1002
01:04:51.320 --> 01:04:56.840
<v Speaker 1>the president has no longer takes a morning uh intel

1003
01:04:56.880 --> 01:05:00.679
<v Speaker 1>briefing every day. But that's that's what Massi was. You know,

1004
01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:04.119
<v Speaker 1>Massy picked is when he called the president corrupt. Again,

1005
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:07.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying, you know, I'm not making a judgment

1006
01:05:07.519 --> 01:05:10.360
<v Speaker 1>here whether that's the correct statement or not. But he

1007
01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:15.000
<v Speaker 1>picked his poison and he's now I hope for where

1008
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:18.559
<v Speaker 1>where you know, if he has good points to be made,

1009
01:05:18.599 --> 01:05:20.400
<v Speaker 1>I hope he has it set up to where he

1010
01:05:20.440 --> 01:05:24.320
<v Speaker 1>can be an influence outside because he had to know

1011
01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:26.320
<v Speaker 1>that this was coming.

1012
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:30.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think that that's that's an important part

1013
01:05:30.679 --> 01:05:35.039
<v Speaker 2>of this, right that certainly, like the Israel stuff is like,

1014
01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:37.320
<v Speaker 2>that's a big part of it. You can't get away

1015
01:05:37.320 --> 01:05:41.079
<v Speaker 2>from that. But there are multiple variables here, right, There's

1016
01:05:41.159 --> 01:05:46.000
<v Speaker 2>multiple variables at play when examining this. So carrying on

1017
01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:47.360
<v Speaker 2>as I.

1018
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Mean, real quick, real quick, I'll make this personal. So

1019
01:05:51.159 --> 01:05:56.320
<v Speaker 1>on I right, you know, I'm I'm obviously several orders

1020
01:05:56.320 --> 01:06:01.239
<v Speaker 1>of magnitude less important than the stuff we're talking about.

1021
01:06:01.239 --> 01:06:05.280
<v Speaker 1>But I write for some DC think tanks, and I

1022
01:06:05.400 --> 01:06:08.320
<v Speaker 1>knew when I came out strong and had a well,

1023
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:12.360
<v Speaker 1>you know, at least well circulated, not very well received

1024
01:06:12.880 --> 01:06:17.440
<v Speaker 1>piece about the Iran War being a mistake, and about

1025
01:06:17.440 --> 01:06:20.679
<v Speaker 1>the same time you and I did the show on

1026
01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:24.239
<v Speaker 1>nuclear proliferation and everything, and that got passed around quite

1027
01:06:24.280 --> 01:06:30.000
<v Speaker 1>a bit. I knew that I was I had some

1028
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:33.920
<v Speaker 1>heat come at me, and suddenly I went a while

1029
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:39.760
<v Speaker 1>without getting a piece published again. Not I've got great

1030
01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:43.199
<v Speaker 1>platforms who I have great relationships with, but you've gotta

1031
01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:45.960
<v Speaker 1>you've got to be a big boy, and you've got

1032
01:06:45.960 --> 01:06:49.000
<v Speaker 1>to the folks if you're listening to this podcast, you're

1033
01:06:49.079 --> 01:06:53.679
<v Speaker 1>trying to be mature and educated about politics, and this

1034
01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:58.119
<v Speaker 1>is politics. You you you know, if you're going to uh,

1035
01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:03.400
<v Speaker 1>is the juice worth squeeze? You've always got to ask

1036
01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:08.320
<v Speaker 1>yourself that. And so you know, if we all you know,

1037
01:07:09.159 --> 01:07:13.320
<v Speaker 1>Jay here for instance, has built a very good platform

1038
01:07:13.400 --> 01:07:16.920
<v Speaker 1>not only on being very talented, but also having prudence,

1039
01:07:17.559 --> 01:07:21.480
<v Speaker 1>having interesting people to interview, and making good points without

1040
01:07:21.639 --> 01:07:26.920
<v Speaker 1>just you know, taking a blowtorch to everyone and everything.

1041
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:31.559
<v Speaker 1>You know, there's there's a prudent way to go about this,

1042
01:07:31.679 --> 01:07:34.159
<v Speaker 1>and you need to consider that all you guys who

1043
01:07:34.159 --> 01:07:36.639
<v Speaker 1>are listening as you seek to have a voice.

1044
01:07:37.320 --> 01:07:41.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, and on that point one, there's something to be

1045
01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:47.920
<v Speaker 2>said for inside and outside conversations. And look, this podcast

1046
01:07:47.960 --> 01:07:51.559
<v Speaker 2>is an inside conversation. If you're here, you're pretty far

1047
01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:57.159
<v Speaker 2>down the rabbit hole, right, So there are conversations that

1048
01:07:57.199 --> 01:08:03.119
<v Speaker 2>can be had there that as a congressman in a

1049
01:08:03.159 --> 01:08:07.440
<v Speaker 2>district in Kentucky, you can be right, but it doesn't

1050
01:08:07.480 --> 01:08:10.320
<v Speaker 2>necessarily help you. And it doesn't mean that you have

1051
01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:13.559
<v Speaker 2>to become a sort of like Limsey Graham, you know,

1052
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:18.640
<v Speaker 2>obsequious lickspittle for a certain nation, not at all, but

1053
01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:24.159
<v Speaker 2>taking a dramatic stand on a divisive issue within your

1054
01:08:24.199 --> 01:08:29.159
<v Speaker 2>own base when you are not in a position to

1055
01:08:29.239 --> 01:08:32.720
<v Speaker 2>assume that will pay off for you, well, you shouldn't

1056
01:08:32.720 --> 01:08:34.279
<v Speaker 2>be surprised when it doesn't pay off for you.

1057
01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:35.079
<v Speaker 1>Right.

1058
01:08:35.439 --> 01:08:38.199
<v Speaker 2>That was a gamble, exact and in my mind, not

1059
01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:40.760
<v Speaker 2>a particularly good one. Now it turned out to be

1060
01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:42.920
<v Speaker 2>a better gamble than I would have thought.

1061
01:08:43.640 --> 01:08:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Right, And that.

1062
01:08:44.920 --> 01:08:49.199
<v Speaker 2>Again, I'm not a Zionist. That should be painfully clear

1063
01:08:49.199 --> 01:08:50.279
<v Speaker 2>to anyone listening to this.

1064
01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:50.680
<v Speaker 1>You're not.

1065
01:08:51.479 --> 01:08:54.680
<v Speaker 2>It's painfully clear based off of my friends and associations.

1066
01:08:54.800 --> 01:08:57.680
<v Speaker 2>I'll leave that there, But I think it's important to

1067
01:08:57.720 --> 01:09:01.600
<v Speaker 2>talk about the actual rationale of the choice that he made.

1068
01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:06.560
<v Speaker 2>As for foreign policy. By antagonizing pro Israel voters as

1069
01:09:06.640 --> 01:09:10.119
<v Speaker 2>well as Trump, Massey forfeited the opportunity to help shape

1070
01:09:10.119 --> 01:09:13.039
<v Speaker 2>his party's stances on war and peace. There's more to

1071
01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:15.680
<v Speaker 2>foreign policy that I ran in Israel, after all, and

1072
01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:17.760
<v Speaker 2>even at a time when the country is embroiled in

1073
01:09:17.800 --> 01:09:21.600
<v Speaker 2>a Middle Eastern conflict, Trump is changing America's posture to

1074
01:09:21.600 --> 01:09:25.520
<v Speaker 2>the world and historic ways liberty Republicans could have been

1075
01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:28.119
<v Speaker 2>part of that process, helping to make peace through strength

1076
01:09:28.119 --> 01:09:32.039
<v Speaker 2>and reality. Some libertarian leaning Republicans in the administration are

1077
01:09:32.119 --> 01:09:36.000
<v Speaker 2>doing that. The representatives who should have been Maga's peace

1078
01:09:36.039 --> 01:09:38.920
<v Speaker 2>wing in Congress chose to treat this moment like two

1079
01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:43.399
<v Speaker 2>thousand and three. Instead. To change government, including foreign policy,

1080
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:46.159
<v Speaker 2>requires more than a single Senator or a couple of

1081
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:49.680
<v Speaker 2>House members, requires a party led by a president. Anything

1082
01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:53.399
<v Speaker 2>else is just a protest movement. Libertarian leaning Republicans like

1083
01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Massey had a golden opportunity to make their case to

1084
01:09:56.000 --> 01:09:58.760
<v Speaker 2>the party base in the twenty tens, and having failed

1085
01:09:58.760 --> 01:10:01.399
<v Speaker 2>to expand beyond the numbers Ron Paul reached in eight

1086
01:10:01.439 --> 01:10:03.800
<v Speaker 2>and twenty twelve, they had a second chance to be

1087
01:10:03.800 --> 01:10:06.279
<v Speaker 2>part of a coalition that actually had a mandate to

1088
01:10:06.319 --> 01:10:10.039
<v Speaker 2>remake the party thanks to Trump. Instead of being targets

1089
01:10:10.039 --> 01:10:12.640
<v Speaker 2>for Maga, they could have played a part in picking

1090
01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:16.199
<v Speaker 2>Maga's targets. Rand Paul and Thomas Massey chose not to.

1091
01:10:16.680 --> 01:10:19.560
<v Speaker 2>Fair Enough, Massey made his choice and has received his

1092
01:10:19.640 --> 01:10:22.600
<v Speaker 2>judgment from the voters. Rand Paul goes before them in

1093
01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:25.439
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty eight. But how is losing a primary meant

1094
01:10:25.479 --> 01:10:28.439
<v Speaker 2>to advance the cause of liberty or restraint in foreign policy?

1095
01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:33.039
<v Speaker 2>They couldn't capitalize on the quote libertarian moment quote what

1096
01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:35.880
<v Speaker 2>do they expect to achieve by themselves in an era

1097
01:10:36.000 --> 01:10:38.800
<v Speaker 2>of MAGA dominance? And I think that that's a really

1098
01:10:38.840 --> 01:10:43.000
<v Speaker 2>important point because look, I spoke last time about how

1099
01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:47.319
<v Speaker 2>the sea is changing on the issue of Israel dramatically,

1100
01:10:47.399 --> 01:10:49.399
<v Speaker 2>So this very.

1101
01:10:49.319 --> 01:10:52.159
<v Speaker 1>Vote my age stratification exactly.

1102
01:10:52.640 --> 01:10:56.680
<v Speaker 2>But we're not there yet. We're certainly much closer than

1103
01:10:56.720 --> 01:10:59.039
<v Speaker 2>I would have guessed even two years ago. To point

1104
01:10:59.079 --> 01:11:03.760
<v Speaker 2>the author makes short and honestly, uh, this could prove

1105
01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:07.000
<v Speaker 2>to be a very nasty divide very quickly.

1106
01:11:07.560 --> 01:11:10.840
<v Speaker 1>But again I want to sorry, yeah, and uh well

1107
01:11:11.479 --> 01:11:16.359
<v Speaker 1>remember to the and I'll remind everyone I am gen X,

1108
01:11:16.680 --> 01:11:21.079
<v Speaker 1>not a boomer, so quit it in the comments you did,

1109
01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:24.319
<v Speaker 1>but boomers to the average boomer.

1110
01:11:24.399 --> 01:11:29.439
<v Speaker 2>Hey, make this differentiation. Who's your favorite musician of all time?

1111
01:11:30.039 --> 01:11:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Eddie van Halen?

1112
01:11:31.199 --> 01:11:39.079
<v Speaker 3>Boomer that I worked for van Halen? I worked for

1113
01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:41.479
<v Speaker 3>van Halen, don't give me that.

1114
01:11:43.640 --> 01:11:46.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, Rod, I'm sorry, Rod, it was a stupid joke.

1115
01:11:46.760 --> 01:11:50.039
<v Speaker 1>But ask me, ask me who my second favorite musician is.

1116
01:11:50.359 --> 01:11:55.159
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna Eric Clapton. That's totally all right.

1117
01:11:55.199 --> 01:11:57.680
<v Speaker 2>We're gonna have a conversation about guitar people another time,

1118
01:11:58.119 --> 01:12:02.680
<v Speaker 2>because this might be the most controversial thing. I say, yeah,

1119
01:12:03.239 --> 01:12:04.359
<v Speaker 2>what are you about to say?

1120
01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:05.199
<v Speaker 1>Go ahead and.

1121
01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:09.960
<v Speaker 2>Say Mark Knopfler is what everyone says. Eric Clapton is

1122
01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:12.600
<v Speaker 2>I love Mark Nophlin. Mark Knopfler is great.

1123
01:12:12.680 --> 01:12:15.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't care for that finger picking style over flat picking.

1124
01:12:15.760 --> 01:12:18.680
<v Speaker 1>But we're gonna go not going down these weeds. Okay.

1125
01:12:18.760 --> 01:12:24.000
<v Speaker 1>So as a genf say you can, so you can

1126
01:12:24.319 --> 01:12:28.840
<v Speaker 1>pull you can, so pull me out of my lane.

1127
01:12:29.000 --> 01:12:29.640
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

1128
01:12:29.720 --> 01:12:36.800
<v Speaker 1>Well, anyway, so for the for the average Boomer and

1129
01:12:37.079 --> 01:12:44.800
<v Speaker 1>Israel a a uh, the Israel is a bastion of

1130
01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:49.640
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of white Europeans who are Judeo Christian in

1131
01:12:49.720 --> 01:12:52.439
<v Speaker 1>a sea of Arabs. And that's how they see it,

1132
01:12:52.479 --> 01:12:55.239
<v Speaker 1>and they're not going to see it any differently. Okay,

1133
01:12:55.760 --> 01:13:01.479
<v Speaker 1>maybe they should. I think Jay and I, to varying degrees,

1134
01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:05.239
<v Speaker 1>have good arguments about you know, I'm not a Zionist,

1135
01:13:05.359 --> 01:13:09.159
<v Speaker 1>I have I'm fine with people finding their own way

1136
01:13:09.199 --> 01:13:12.600
<v Speaker 1>and what, you know, in whatever situation they are. I'm

1137
01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:19.439
<v Speaker 1>of the right. But if we're talking about Boomer democracy

1138
01:13:20.199 --> 01:13:24.600
<v Speaker 1>and how you just have to understand those are white

1139
01:13:25.279 --> 01:13:30.640
<v Speaker 1>Jews in a sea of Arab chaos and that's how

1140
01:13:30.680 --> 01:13:34.439
<v Speaker 1>they see it. And now you can make your arguments,

1141
01:13:34.479 --> 01:13:37.199
<v Speaker 1>but you got to realize that's the reality.

1142
01:13:37.640 --> 01:13:42.159
<v Speaker 2>Okay, And again that is not my position, but that

1143
01:13:42.279 --> 01:13:46.119
<v Speaker 2>is the commonly held position. And I think it's important

1144
01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:48.880
<v Speaker 2>and this ron we are going to do a show

1145
01:13:48.920 --> 01:13:51.800
<v Speaker 2>about this, not today because we're already over an hour

1146
01:13:51.840 --> 01:13:54.439
<v Speaker 2>and I want to finish this article. But I think

1147
01:13:54.439 --> 01:13:57.840
<v Speaker 2>it's very important for people to realize that for a

1148
01:13:57.880 --> 01:14:02.600
<v Speaker 2>lot of people, their position on Israel is not rational

1149
01:14:03.039 --> 01:14:06.000
<v Speaker 2>and it's not one that is borne out by data.

1150
01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:10.560
<v Speaker 2>For many people, sure there's the crazy dispensationalist stuff that

1151
01:14:10.600 --> 01:14:12.760
<v Speaker 2>you and I have spoken about before, that one hundred

1152
01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:17.319
<v Speaker 2>percent exists. But for a lot of people, Israel serves

1153
01:14:17.359 --> 01:14:21.399
<v Speaker 2>two functions. One, there's a little bit of displacement going

1154
01:14:21.439 --> 01:14:24.000
<v Speaker 2>on there where it's like they do all the cool

1155
01:14:24.039 --> 01:14:27.000
<v Speaker 2>stuff that we can't do. I wish you could do that.

1156
01:14:27.359 --> 01:14:31.920
<v Speaker 1>There's some wish, especially especially if you came to political

1157
01:14:33.119 --> 01:14:36.760
<v Speaker 1>fruition in the nineteen seventies, when we could get out

1158
01:14:36.800 --> 01:14:39.840
<v Speaker 1>of the way of our own ass pardon me that

1159
01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:44.039
<v Speaker 1>you have no idea, and then Israel goes and bombs

1160
01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:48.359
<v Speaker 1>the reactor at Oserak. I believe was the name of it,

1161
01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:51.680
<v Speaker 1>and suddenly they could do no. And this is after

1162
01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:56.039
<v Speaker 1>the raid on Entebbi and the fact, and after their

1163
01:14:56.159 --> 01:15:00.560
<v Speaker 1>entire wrestling team in seventy two gets massacred, they just

1164
01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:05.960
<v Speaker 1>go and kill everyone who might have been involved. Go

1165
01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:10.079
<v Speaker 1>see the movie Eric Bana Munich, which is about that.

1166
01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:13.439
<v Speaker 1>And suddenly we're like, can we have some of that

1167
01:15:13.560 --> 01:15:17.520
<v Speaker 1>competence that that gets? And if you grew up in

1168
01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:21.000
<v Speaker 1>that and I did not, I that's a little before

1169
01:15:21.039 --> 01:15:24.159
<v Speaker 1>my time. I mean, I've heard of all those things.

1170
01:15:24.159 --> 01:15:27.039
<v Speaker 1>I was cognizant, but that really wasn't on my radar.

1171
01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:29.600
<v Speaker 1>I was more a child of the eighties. They they

1172
01:15:31.279 --> 01:15:36.560
<v Speaker 1>that was hugely attractive to the folks who again came

1173
01:15:36.600 --> 01:15:41.399
<v Speaker 1>to political fruition in uh In in that time period,

1174
01:15:41.479 --> 01:15:44.960
<v Speaker 1>the late the late sixties and early seventies, starting really

1175
01:15:45.000 --> 01:15:49.640
<v Speaker 1>starting with the Six Days War so well.

1176
01:15:49.640 --> 01:15:53.720
<v Speaker 2>And on that point, oftentimes people on our side of

1177
01:15:53.760 --> 01:15:56.920
<v Speaker 2>the boomer divide will express sentiments along the lines of

1178
01:15:57.439 --> 01:16:01.119
<v Speaker 2>you don't get it. That's true, but also a listener,

1179
01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:05.359
<v Speaker 2>you don't get it. There are emotional attachments which again

1180
01:16:05.560 --> 01:16:08.000
<v Speaker 2>are not rational. They are not based on a chart,

1181
01:16:08.319 --> 01:16:11.600
<v Speaker 2>they are not based off of some rational exchange that

1182
01:16:11.680 --> 01:16:15.680
<v Speaker 2>are very dearly held to people and another part of it,

1183
01:16:15.720 --> 01:16:18.920
<v Speaker 2>And there's every reason to believe that this is completely

1184
01:16:18.960 --> 01:16:22.840
<v Speaker 2>and totally synthetic. Supporting Israel has become a part of

1185
01:16:23.000 --> 01:16:26.439
<v Speaker 2>what it means to be a conservative in the same

1186
01:16:26.479 --> 01:16:31.279
<v Speaker 2>way that opposing abortion, in the same way that getting

1187
01:16:31.279 --> 01:16:35.039
<v Speaker 2>really mad at Colin Kaepernick. Which there are reasons for

1188
01:16:35.079 --> 01:16:40.119
<v Speaker 2>both of those positions, but it's sort of amp smell, right,

1189
01:16:40.479 --> 01:16:43.720
<v Speaker 2>it's not rationally thought out. It is simply part of

1190
01:16:43.720 --> 01:16:48.359
<v Speaker 2>it in the same way. So often able to point

1191
01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:52.000
<v Speaker 2>this out in the left right, why do they hate

1192
01:16:52.239 --> 01:16:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Elon Musk? Why do they call him an in cell?

1193
01:16:55.199 --> 01:16:57.640
<v Speaker 2>Is it because he actually is an insult? No, it's

1194
01:16:57.640 --> 01:16:58.319
<v Speaker 2>literally just.

1195
01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:01.279
<v Speaker 1>My team really not an insult.

1196
01:17:01.479 --> 01:17:04.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yes, we have the but you know what I mean, right,

1197
01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:08.039
<v Speaker 2>that insult thrown out? Yeah, we run the numbers on this. Well,

1198
01:17:08.199 --> 01:17:10.000
<v Speaker 2>we have some proof to the contrary. I'll put it

1199
01:17:10.039 --> 01:17:15.880
<v Speaker 2>that way anyway. But it's just gut low. It's reaction,

1200
01:17:16.359 --> 01:17:21.640
<v Speaker 2>and look, that's really difficult to change. Carrying on, the

1201
01:17:21.680 --> 01:17:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Republican Party of the Future may become less supportive of

1202
01:17:24.920 --> 01:17:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Israel if present trends among younger voters continue, but anti

1203
01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Zionism already has a home in democratic primaries, where it

1204
01:17:31.800 --> 01:17:35.359
<v Speaker 2>fits perfectly with the anti colonial's, anti western principles of

1205
01:17:35.439 --> 01:17:38.359
<v Speaker 2>the left, although it troubles many friends as well of

1206
01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:41.479
<v Speaker 2>foes of Israel's. To say so, Israel itself is part

1207
01:17:41.479 --> 01:17:44.600
<v Speaker 2>of a much larger question about people's homelands and historical

1208
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:47.640
<v Speaker 2>justice in the globalized conditions of the twenty first century,

1209
01:17:48.079 --> 01:17:51.439
<v Speaker 2>Americans have to take a side on that question, which

1210
01:17:51.479 --> 01:17:54.520
<v Speaker 2>has the greatest bearing on domestic as well as foreign policy.

1211
01:17:54.880 --> 01:17:57.800
<v Speaker 2>MAGA knows where it stands, as does the left. Full

1212
01:17:57.880 --> 01:18:02.600
<v Speaker 2>on open borders. Libertarian neoliberal globalists know where they stand too.

1213
01:18:03.000 --> 01:18:05.439
<v Speaker 2>The likes of MASSI are a lot less certain. The

1214
01:18:05.520 --> 01:18:08.720
<v Speaker 2>Young Right it's views on Israel, notwithstanding, don't seem to

1215
01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:12.319
<v Speaker 2>be in much doubt unless it is anti Zionism overrides

1216
01:18:12.359 --> 01:18:18.439
<v Speaker 2>it's anti globalism. I disagree with this framing slightly. In

1217
01:18:18.479 --> 01:18:22.760
<v Speaker 2>my mind, anti globalism and anti Zionism aren't necessity are

1218
01:18:22.960 --> 01:18:26.520
<v Speaker 2>in opposition. And if you look at the America first,

1219
01:18:26.920 --> 01:18:29.119
<v Speaker 2>and I don't just mean Fuentes, I mean you know

1220
01:18:29.159 --> 01:18:32.079
<v Speaker 2>what he calls the young Right. To me, it's pretty

1221
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:35.600
<v Speaker 2>clear that for people under fifty five at least according

1222
01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:39.199
<v Speaker 2>to the data we saw out of this very primary,

1223
01:18:40.439 --> 01:18:44.479
<v Speaker 2>those could be wed quite handily, and in fact, much

1224
01:18:44.479 --> 01:18:47.960
<v Speaker 2>of the strongest opposition from Massi and others kind of

1225
01:18:47.960 --> 01:18:51.119
<v Speaker 2>more on the conservative side, really has very little to

1226
01:18:51.239 --> 01:18:57.720
<v Speaker 2>do with the jewishness of Israel. Be careful why I'll

1227
01:18:57.720 --> 01:19:00.199
<v Speaker 2>express this, but it has to do with exactly that

1228
01:19:00.359 --> 01:19:05.159
<v Speaker 2>America first proposition, why are we supporting you? Which I

1229
01:19:05.199 --> 01:19:07.720
<v Speaker 2>think is a very strong argument and one I see

1230
01:19:08.119 --> 01:19:12.239
<v Speaker 2>often expressed. There are people, many of whom are my friends,

1231
01:19:12.640 --> 01:19:16.319
<v Speaker 2>who are right wing Hamas supporters. I don't see that

1232
01:19:16.359 --> 01:19:19.039
<v Speaker 2>as being nearly as common. What I see is basically

1233
01:19:19.079 --> 01:19:22.600
<v Speaker 2>the same reaction to Ukraine, which is, you, guys, sort

1234
01:19:22.680 --> 01:19:25.680
<v Speaker 2>your own problems out, don't bring us into it. This

1235
01:19:25.920 --> 01:19:31.920
<v Speaker 2>isn't my fight, Particularly when the Israel lobby dumped a

1236
01:19:31.920 --> 01:19:34.399
<v Speaker 2>ton of money on a primary that, even if people

1237
01:19:34.439 --> 01:19:37.399
<v Speaker 2>didn't particularly like Thomas Massey or his message was kind

1238
01:19:37.399 --> 01:19:40.279
<v Speaker 2>of out of date. It is a little weird, right.

1239
01:19:40.399 --> 01:19:43.680
<v Speaker 2>It feels like something that shouldn't be allowed for a

1240
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:46.399
<v Speaker 2>country that receives a lot of money to be using

1241
01:19:46.760 --> 01:19:49.680
<v Speaker 2>the money they get from us directly or indirectly. I

1242
01:19:49.800 --> 01:19:54.680
<v Speaker 2>understand to control our politics, right that rankles people naturally,

1243
01:19:55.119 --> 01:19:59.039
<v Speaker 2>and that is both anti globalist and also by no

1244
01:19:59.199 --> 01:20:03.920
<v Speaker 2>means anti colonialist or anti Western. That's the point of

1245
01:20:03.960 --> 01:20:06.760
<v Speaker 2>difference I think I have with the author on Yeah.

1246
01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:11.920
<v Speaker 1>I think Dan is saying that anti globalism really is

1247
01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:17.640
<v Speaker 1>this is the is the chief organizing principle of of

1248
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:23.119
<v Speaker 1>of the right, and especially of the MAGA right. It's uh,

1249
01:20:23.239 --> 01:20:31.800
<v Speaker 1>defend nations, borders, industrial capacity, uh, democrat, demographic continuity, political authority,

1250
01:20:31.920 --> 01:20:37.199
<v Speaker 1>and civilizational self respect and controlling you're near abroad. That is,

1251
01:20:38.199 --> 01:20:42.479
<v Speaker 1>that's kind of the new Right in a nutshell. And

1252
01:20:42.560 --> 01:20:46.119
<v Speaker 1>I think Dan is saying that it's you know, if

1253
01:20:46.159 --> 01:20:49.560
<v Speaker 1>you choose to be anti zionists, that's fine, but don't

1254
01:20:49.560 --> 01:20:55.640
<v Speaker 1>allow the anti zionism to clap to overcome this larger

1255
01:20:56.439 --> 01:21:02.239
<v Speaker 1>anti globalist uh priority. That's a much anti globalism is

1256
01:21:02.279 --> 01:21:07.800
<v Speaker 1>a much stronger organizing principle than simple anti zionism anti

1257
01:21:07.920 --> 01:21:11.840
<v Speaker 1>if because and and here's where I'll jump in is

1258
01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:18.359
<v Speaker 1>before before this, I mean, the level of influence and

1259
01:21:18.640 --> 01:21:25.119
<v Speaker 1>control that the UK, especially in the Intel services UH

1260
01:21:25.159 --> 01:21:30.279
<v Speaker 1>tried and often was successful in manipulating the US was

1261
01:21:30.560 --> 01:21:34.880
<v Speaker 1>uh breathtaking. Uh. You we've seen shoot just in the

1262
01:21:34.920 --> 01:21:40.039
<v Speaker 1>last few years. What what Ukraine? How the Ukraine? Uh,

1263
01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:44.239
<v Speaker 1>the Ukraine listened to me, that's old school. How Ukraine

1264
01:21:44.720 --> 01:21:51.960
<v Speaker 1>manipulated us into uh endless uh uh you know, dollars

1265
01:21:52.039 --> 01:21:58.119
<v Speaker 1>and and and so forth. So we are susceptible as

1266
01:21:58.199 --> 01:22:05.279
<v Speaker 1>a factionalized democracy to foreign influence. That's part of it.

1267
01:22:05.319 --> 01:22:10.279
<v Speaker 1>That's a structural problem. And therefore Dan is saying we

1268
01:22:10.359 --> 01:22:14.800
<v Speaker 1>need to make sure that this anti globalism sits at

1269
01:22:14.800 --> 01:22:20.520
<v Speaker 1>the top of the pyramid of Maslow's hierarchy of needs,

1270
01:22:20.520 --> 01:22:24.319
<v Speaker 1>so to speak, for the New Right, because anti Zionism,

1271
01:22:24.600 --> 01:22:30.760
<v Speaker 1>while valid, can distract if that becomes your organizing principle.

1272
01:22:31.279 --> 01:22:33.520
<v Speaker 1>I think that's the point that Dan is trying to make.

1273
01:22:33.720 --> 01:22:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, and you've seen that in the UK, where I

1274
01:22:37.840 --> 01:22:40.920
<v Speaker 2>think that Restore Britain has done a much better job

1275
01:22:41.039 --> 01:22:45.199
<v Speaker 2>of navigating that question by basically saying we will not

1276
01:22:45.319 --> 01:22:49.199
<v Speaker 2>accept any money whatsoever from foreign interests when being asked

1277
01:22:49.199 --> 01:22:53.439
<v Speaker 2>about the Israel lobby, whereas you've seen this bizarre marriage

1278
01:22:53.720 --> 01:22:58.760
<v Speaker 2>of anti Israel sentiment with far left policies, and again

1279
01:22:59.399 --> 01:23:00.880
<v Speaker 2>not a fan of but.

1280
01:23:01.079 --> 01:23:03.880
<v Speaker 1>Because it's anti colonial, it's the whole anti colonial thing,

1281
01:23:04.079 --> 01:23:09.359
<v Speaker 1>and people having a play anything tied to you know,

1282
01:23:09.479 --> 01:23:18.279
<v Speaker 1>ethnogenesis or whatever, or even Creedle uh fidelity UH is

1283
01:23:18.520 --> 01:23:21.960
<v Speaker 1>considered anathema to the left, and you just you have

1284
01:23:22.039 --> 01:23:26.439
<v Speaker 1>to be careful not to get sucked down that that pathway.

1285
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:31.720
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's a huge issue on the right.

1286
01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:35.880
<v Speaker 1>I think maybe sometimes in the ultra you know, fully,

1287
01:23:37.039 --> 01:23:40.800
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to, you know, I just wanted to

1288
01:23:40.840 --> 01:23:44.439
<v Speaker 1>clarify what I think Dan's point is here. You know,

1289
01:23:44.800 --> 01:23:48.399
<v Speaker 1>I how would I put it? Maybe America should not

1290
01:23:48.479 --> 01:23:51.520
<v Speaker 1>be dragged into Israel's wars. We all agree with that

1291
01:23:52.279 --> 01:23:56.279
<v Speaker 1>US policy should serve US interest and those US interests

1292
01:23:56.279 --> 01:23:59.680
<v Speaker 1>should be defined by the citizenry of the US, not

1293
01:23:59.840 --> 01:24:04.479
<v Speaker 1>just it's trading or internationalist interests. Right, aid and commitments

1294
01:24:04.520 --> 01:24:09.560
<v Speaker 1>should be you know, limited and scrutinized. But Israel's claim

1295
01:24:09.680 --> 01:24:14.079
<v Speaker 1>to exist as a nation state is not the very

1296
01:24:14.960 --> 01:24:18.920
<v Speaker 1>that should not sit at the top of the organizing

1297
01:24:19.000 --> 01:24:20.279
<v Speaker 1>principle of the new Right.

1298
01:24:20.640 --> 01:24:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the point in conclusion. How yeah, go ahead,

1299
01:24:25.159 --> 01:24:26.800
<v Speaker 2>and I'll just get to this last paragraph. So I

1300
01:24:26.840 --> 01:24:30.840
<v Speaker 2>think it's it's express is a very important important point here.

1301
01:24:31.399 --> 01:24:34.239
<v Speaker 2>Many friends of mine are die hard Massy supporters. I

1302
01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:37.399
<v Speaker 2>understand where they're coming from, but not where they think

1303
01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:41.239
<v Speaker 2>they're going. Some pure content to live forever in two

1304
01:24:41.279 --> 01:24:45.520
<v Speaker 2>thousand and three, twenty thirteen, refighting the battles they lost

1305
01:24:45.520 --> 01:24:48.159
<v Speaker 2>ten or twenty years ago. They would do more for

1306
01:24:48.199 --> 01:24:50.359
<v Speaker 2>their cause if they tried to make the best of MAGA.

1307
01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:53.319
<v Speaker 2>Trump has turned the GOP into a real party again

1308
01:24:53.359 --> 01:24:55.760
<v Speaker 2>for the first time in decades. That party has a

1309
01:24:55.840 --> 01:24:58.640
<v Speaker 2>chance to change things for better or worse, which it

1310
01:24:58.720 --> 01:25:02.079
<v Speaker 2>will depend on who is in the mix. That is

1311
01:25:02.119 --> 01:25:04.159
<v Speaker 2>true for the country too, and is the point of

1312
01:25:04.199 --> 01:25:07.399
<v Speaker 2>self government. It's hard work, and I think that that

1313
01:25:07.800 --> 01:25:12.680
<v Speaker 2>is an interesting codea on this again. It is very

1314
01:25:12.720 --> 01:25:16.479
<v Speaker 2>easy to point out the mentality of being a beautiful

1315
01:25:16.520 --> 01:25:19.880
<v Speaker 2>loser when it's someone you don't like, But I think

1316
01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:22.000
<v Speaker 2>we have to be very frank about the fact that,

1317
01:25:22.920 --> 01:25:25.960
<v Speaker 2>guess what, you may have that instinct as well, or

1318
01:25:26.000 --> 01:25:30.399
<v Speaker 2>someone you like may have that instinct as well. And again,

1319
01:25:31.199 --> 01:25:33.520
<v Speaker 2>given the choice, I would have picked I would have

1320
01:25:33.880 --> 01:25:36.800
<v Speaker 2>picked Massy in this primary for any number of reasons.

1321
01:25:37.239 --> 01:25:39.359
<v Speaker 2>We have to understand, going back to the beginning of

1322
01:25:39.399 --> 01:25:44.560
<v Speaker 2>this article, that by being a twenty thirteen libertarian, he

1323
01:25:44.840 --> 01:25:49.359
<v Speaker 2>massively alienated people on issues that actually matter. He wasted

1324
01:25:49.399 --> 01:25:54.840
<v Speaker 2>his social capital on libertarian bs right, whining about ice,

1325
01:25:54.960 --> 01:25:58.239
<v Speaker 2>whining about the budget, whining about all these things, and

1326
01:25:58.319 --> 01:26:02.000
<v Speaker 2>he spent it in some good places. Right. That also

1327
01:26:02.079 --> 01:26:04.199
<v Speaker 2>alienated him with the base, but in a way that

1328
01:26:04.279 --> 01:26:07.640
<v Speaker 2>was probably worth it, like with the Epstein files. And

1329
01:26:07.960 --> 01:26:12.000
<v Speaker 2>if he had not spent down his capital over again

1330
01:26:12.199 --> 01:26:15.399
<v Speaker 2>immigration in the budget, maybe he would have had enough

1331
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:18.600
<v Speaker 2>to fend off this attack. Maybe he could still be

1332
01:26:18.920 --> 01:26:22.079
<v Speaker 2>a solid anti war Republican, which we are in sore

1333
01:26:22.199 --> 01:26:27.159
<v Speaker 2>need of. But instead he chose to die on old hills,

1334
01:26:27.520 --> 01:26:30.600
<v Speaker 2>die on hills that nobody except for him cares about.

1335
01:26:31.039 --> 01:26:34.880
<v Speaker 1>He wrote political checks that he didn't have the political

1336
01:26:34.960 --> 01:26:40.279
<v Speaker 1>capital to cover, and many a career has been ended

1337
01:26:40.439 --> 01:26:40.760
<v Speaker 1>by that.

1338
01:26:41.520 --> 01:26:44.600
<v Speaker 2>Well, one could even say Ron he started wars he

1339
01:26:44.600 --> 01:26:48.319
<v Speaker 2>couldn't win, right, echoing the same problem with Butch. It's

1340
01:26:48.359 --> 01:26:49.560
<v Speaker 2>the same problem.

1341
01:26:49.920 --> 01:26:54.439
<v Speaker 1>It's that's why I think this that's kind of the

1342
01:26:55.800 --> 01:27:01.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, esoteric point of Dan's artill that came out also.

1343
01:27:02.039 --> 01:27:03.199
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if we can link it in the

1344
01:27:03.199 --> 01:27:07.640
<v Speaker 1>show notes. The podcast that we've mentioned several times is

1345
01:27:08.000 --> 01:27:15.359
<v Speaker 1>Dan discussing this with on the British Spectator podcast with

1346
01:27:15.720 --> 01:27:22.479
<v Speaker 1>Chris Caldwell. Who's brilliant, and Chris is probably he's more

1347
01:27:23.600 --> 01:27:27.319
<v Speaker 1>skeptical of some of some of this. It's a very

1348
01:27:27.359 --> 01:27:32.520
<v Speaker 1>good conversation if you like these kind of heady, conceptualized

1349
01:27:33.399 --> 01:27:36.359
<v Speaker 1>think pieces. And it's not long, it's thirty four minutes

1350
01:27:36.399 --> 01:27:40.560
<v Speaker 1>something like that, but I highly recommend it. It's worth

1351
01:27:40.600 --> 01:27:44.000
<v Speaker 1>the listen. And again it's not so that you agree

1352
01:27:44.279 --> 01:27:46.840
<v Speaker 1>always with what these guys are writing. You like good

1353
01:27:46.920 --> 01:27:50.800
<v Speaker 1>writers because they help you. They just help you get

1354
01:27:50.840 --> 01:27:55.399
<v Speaker 1>your thinking clear as you decide what position you have.

1355
01:27:55.880 --> 01:27:58.199
<v Speaker 1>It's just incredibly important.

1356
01:27:58.640 --> 01:28:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's it's it's good to go through

1357
01:28:00.840 --> 01:28:04.560
<v Speaker 2>an article like this because it does run contrary to

1358
01:28:04.720 --> 01:28:08.119
<v Speaker 2>my and many others gut feelings on this right where

1359
01:28:08.119 --> 01:28:12.479
<v Speaker 2>your kind of lizard brain is leading you. And again

1360
01:28:13.279 --> 01:28:16.319
<v Speaker 2>I've said this one hundred times, like I would prefer

1361
01:28:16.479 --> 01:28:20.479
<v Speaker 2>mass you to have won, but it's important to understand that. Yeah, look,

1362
01:28:21.039 --> 01:28:25.319
<v Speaker 2>the money's there, the changing demographic trends are also there,

1363
01:28:25.840 --> 01:28:29.199
<v Speaker 2>things that you know, we're very comfortable pointing out. But

1364
01:28:29.239 --> 01:28:33.119
<v Speaker 2>there's other parts of this and simply those two factors,

1365
01:28:33.600 --> 01:28:36.920
<v Speaker 2>and if we are going to win, if we are

1366
01:28:36.960 --> 01:28:39.479
<v Speaker 2>going to succeed, we have to have kind of the

1367
01:28:40.119 --> 01:28:44.399
<v Speaker 2>uncomfortable conversation with ourselves, with people we like, with people

1368
01:28:44.479 --> 01:28:49.039
<v Speaker 2>directionally we agree with more because we're not there yet.

1369
01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:54.600
<v Speaker 2>If again, present trends continue and anti Zionism or at

1370
01:28:54.680 --> 01:28:58.520
<v Speaker 2>least non Zionism becomes a winning issue in the Republican Party,

1371
01:28:58.680 --> 01:29:02.680
<v Speaker 2>great awesome. But until then we have to play ball

1372
01:29:02.720 --> 01:29:05.039
<v Speaker 2>in a different way. And that's what I think needs

1373
01:29:05.039 --> 01:29:07.600
<v Speaker 2>to be understand from this article. So, Ron, this has

1374
01:29:07.600 --> 01:29:11.119
<v Speaker 2>been a fascinating discussion. I appreciate you sending me this article.

1375
01:29:11.159 --> 01:29:15.640
<v Speaker 2>It's genuinely great. If people are interested in you and

1376
01:29:15.680 --> 01:29:17.760
<v Speaker 2>your work, I know you've mentioned it a couple of times,

1377
01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:18.960
<v Speaker 2>but where can people find you?

1378
01:29:20.159 --> 01:29:25.880
<v Speaker 1>I write for the American Mind, publication of the Claremont Institute.

1379
01:29:25.960 --> 01:29:33.319
<v Speaker 1>I write for American Reformer on political theology, occasionally for

1380
01:29:33.640 --> 01:29:39.479
<v Speaker 1>Responsible state Craft, uh, and quite often at my substack,

1381
01:29:40.800 --> 01:29:45.840
<v Speaker 1>the Eyes of Apilles or Ron Dodson dot substack dot com.

1382
01:29:46.199 --> 01:29:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, right, I realized that sounded like I was digging

1383
01:29:48.600 --> 01:29:50.760
<v Speaker 2>you for mentioning your work before. I just meant that

1384
01:29:50.760 --> 01:29:53.119
<v Speaker 2>you've been on my show a lot, right, Like, I

1385
01:29:53.119 --> 01:29:55.079
<v Speaker 2>feel like people have probably heard you at.

1386
01:29:55.079 --> 01:29:56.279
<v Speaker 1>Least one No, it's okay.

1387
01:29:56.439 --> 01:30:00.760
<v Speaker 2>I came across as a progressive I can.

1388
01:30:00.920 --> 01:30:03.079
<v Speaker 1>I can pull it out. It's okay. We can stop

1389
01:30:03.119 --> 01:30:05.600
<v Speaker 1>them leaving, all right, Ron.

1390
01:30:05.600 --> 01:30:07.920
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate it. Everyone at home, keep your head up.

1391
01:30:07.960 --> 01:30:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Good night.

1392
01:30:09.680 --> 01:30:11.279
<v Speaker 1>HM.

1393
01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:33.359
<v Speaker 2>What