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Name something that's not boring, laundry, a book club, 12 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:45.719 computer solitaire. Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for chumbuck casino. 13 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:46.320 Jump. 14 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:47.200 That's right. 15 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:50.320 Chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino style games. 16 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.399 Join today and play for free for your chance to 17 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:57.200 redeem some serious prizes. Jump chumbacasino dot com. 18 00:00:57.320 --> 00:01:01.960 Nos'reheated by eighty plus terms conditions of plus what's lost. 19 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.079 You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking 20 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.200 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 21 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:25.840 written about them. Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, BTK every week, 22 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.840 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 23 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:33.920 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 24 00:01:34.280 --> 00:01:37.959 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 25 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:49.359 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 26 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:52.480 program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime 27 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:56.079 history and the authors that have written about them. In 28 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:59.959 the horrifying annals of American crime, infamous names of brutal 29 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.480 killers such as Bundy, Dahmer, Gaycy, and Berkowitz are writ 30 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:08.159 large in the imaginations of a public both horrified and 31 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:13.680 hypnotized by their monstrous murderous acts. But for every celebrity 32 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:17.400 psychopath who's gotten ink for spilling blood, there's a bevy 33 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:22.520 of all but forgotten homicidal fiends studying the bloody margins 34 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:27.599 of US history. Spurred by prophet passion, paranoia, or perverse pleasure, 35 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:31.840 these killers, the Witch of Staten Island, the Smutty Nose Butcher, 36 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:36.599 the Bluebeard of Quiet Dell, and many others, span three 37 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:40.560 centuries in a host of heroing murder methods. These demonic 38 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:43.360 denizens may be long gone to the gallows, but this 39 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:48.159 insidiously irresistible slice of Gothic Americana will ensure that they'll 40 00:02:48.159 --> 00:02:51.199 no longer be forgotten. The book that we're featuring this 41 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:56.199 evening is Psycho USA, American Psycho Killers You've Never Heard Of, 42 00:02:56.319 --> 00:03:00.800 with my special guest journalist and author and professor Harrow Checkter. 43 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:03.039 Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to 44 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:04.759 this interview. Harold Checkter. 45 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:07.719 Great, what pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me. 46 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:10.879 Thank you very much. I just want to make another 47 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:14.000 little introduction for those that tune into this program, and 48 00:03:14.039 --> 00:03:17.400 it's been on almost three years now, that you are 49 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:19.919 the perfect person to be coming on this program. So 50 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.439 I'm very glad to welcome you on here because if 51 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:26.919 there is anybody who understands and has written about and 52 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:30.280 researched and knows about the most shocking killers in true 53 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:33.400 crime history, it's definitely you. So thank you very much 54 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:36.560 for coming on. This is a great book to discuss too. 55 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:37.400 This is a great. 56 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:38.479 Book, by the way. Thank you. 57 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:43.560 Now let's go back for those that don't know what 58 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:47.520 a serial killer the definition of that somebody just woke 59 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:50.240 up after a coma after twenty years, but please tell 60 00:03:50.319 --> 00:03:53.639 us about the term serial killer, because you do take 61 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:56.520 us back to a time where there wasn't a term 62 00:03:56.560 --> 00:04:00.879 for serial killer. And as we talked well in the introduction, 63 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:04.199 the killers that you're talking about span three centuries. So 64 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:10.000 tell us what when the term coin the phrase or 65 00:04:10.039 --> 00:04:12.919 the term was coined serial killer, and what were they 66 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.560 called before that, and what were they called centuries ago? 67 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:21.959 Well, apparently the first use of the phrase serial murderer 68 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:28.040 dates to around nineteen sixty two, according to the Oxford 69 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:36.560 English Dictionary, which tracks the etymology of language. And apparently 70 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:41.600 it first appeared in a book by a German film 71 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:46.040 critic strangely enough named Sigfried Krackoer, who was writing about 72 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:51.480 the famous movie m starring Peter Laurie about pedophiliac serial 73 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:55.240 murder and Krackower coined that term, and then it was 74 00:04:55.279 --> 00:05:00.079 picked up a little later by another British writer. It 75 00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.240 it didn't really, you know, become widely used until the 76 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:11.759 nineteen eighties when the FBI Profiling Unit began to employ 77 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:15.399 that term. You know, there's some controversy over exactly who 78 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.439 coined it, but in any case, it's you know, it's 79 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:21.639 a relatively recent term, but it's a recent term for 80 00:05:21.680 --> 00:05:24.600 an age old phenomenon. I mean, it goes back way 81 00:05:24.680 --> 00:05:29.240 beyond the three centuries that my that my book covers, 82 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:33.360 you know, it's probably really as old as our species itself. 83 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:36.759 There's actually a very illuminating book I read years ago 84 00:05:37.279 --> 00:05:40.639 by a Harvard anthropologist named Richard Wrangham. The book is 85 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:45.519 called Demonic Males, and it traces the origins of male 86 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:48.879 violence in the human species, you know, back to our 87 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:54.759 primate ancestors, and you know, chimpanzees with whom we share 88 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.959 something like ninety nine point nine percent of our DNA. 89 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:01.319 You know, we share more d A with chimpanzees, and 90 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:05.439 chimpanzees do with gorillas are as. It turns out, I 91 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:07.879 hadn't realized this until I read the book. You know, 92 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:14.519 frighteningly violent creatures who commit the kinds of atrocities. Really, 93 00:06:14.600 --> 00:06:17.600 you know that we associate with things like serial killers. 94 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:20.519 So you know, I'm sure you have, you know, found 95 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:24.959 that kind of crime going on all throughout human history 96 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:29.879 and possibly even prehistory. In the past, serial murderers were 97 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:33.199 known by a variety of names. You know, there was 98 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:37.360 a point at which they're called lust murderers, which I 99 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:40.560 think actually is a very very in a way, a 100 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:45.560 more expressive and even accurate term than serial murder. You know, 101 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:47.959 back in the Middle Ages, they were referred to as 102 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:52.879 lichen thropes because the kind of butchery they committed was 103 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.959 so extreme that, you know, people thought that these were 104 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:58.879 human beings too, literally turned into wolves when they were 105 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.439 committing these kinds of crimes. You know, somebody like Chickatillo 106 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:06.920 for example, you know, it would be a modern example 107 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:11.160 of that kind of killer. Back in the nineteen thirties, 108 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:15.040 there was no distinction made between serial murder and mass murder. 109 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:19.040 I wrote a book about Albert Fish for example, you know, 110 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.560 arguably the most heinous serial killer in the annals of 111 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:28.040 US crime, cannibal pedophile who is preying on children, back 112 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.319 in the nineteen twenties and thirties, and it was interesting 113 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.399 to me that in the newspaper stories of the time 114 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:36.759 when he was arrested, they were just using the term 115 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:41.439 mass murder. Of course, now a distinction is made between 116 00:07:41.560 --> 00:07:45.959 serial murder, which again is basically a sadistic sex crime, 117 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:52.040 and mass murder, which is, you know, a kind of apocalyptic, 118 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:56.399 suicidal explosion of violence in which a person just takes 119 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:57.839 out a bunch of people at one time. 120 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:04.160 Yeah, it's interesting, Yeah, that that term now is is 121 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:06.040 still used, but in a different context. 122 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:11.079 Right. Well, again, they're two very very different phenomena. You know. Again, 123 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:14.319 the mass murderer, you know, I mean, I guess the 124 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:17.680 most recent notorious case is you know, the guy who 125 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:21.720 shot up the movie theater in Denver, right uh? And 126 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:27.920 they you know that is again this this explosion of 127 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:31.759 apocalyptic violence that takes place. You know, it's it's a 128 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:34.799 it's a one off deal. You know, usually those people 129 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.840 tend to be suicidal. You know, they've reached somehow the 130 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:43.200 end of their life, even this guy who didn't actually 131 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.960 end up committing suicide or being killed by the cops, 132 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:50.519 as obviously his life was all over. And you know, 133 00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.679 they're basically going out with a bang. I mean, that's 134 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.639 it's this one time deal. Whereas serial murderers, again it's 135 00:08:55.639 --> 00:08:58.919 basically a sadistic sex crime. You know, these are people 136 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:05.639 who derive this extremely perverse pleasure from inflicting pain and 137 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.159 torture on their victims. And you know the pattern of 138 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.720 serial murder tends to follow the pattern of sexual behavior. 139 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:18.120 You know, a period of fantasizing about committing this act. 140 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:22.200 You know, finally this overwhelming impulse to do it you know, 141 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:27.240 trolling for a victim or picking up a victim, you know, 142 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:32.720 perpetrating this act. Then this cooling off period which basically 143 00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:37.639 just parallels, you know, the kind of period that follows 144 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:41.679 a normal person sexual release, and then the build up 145 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:42.960 again of the impulse. 146 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.039 So now in your research for this book we talk 147 00:09:50.120 --> 00:09:52.600 about we just talked about Albert Fish. So that's back 148 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:57.600 in the forties. But throughout centuries did you find with 149 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:01.679 this research, because it was not only killers we've never 150 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:04.960 heard of. It's also some killers even for you, that 151 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:06.440 you've never heard of. Is that correct? 152 00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.759 Well, I hadn't heard of them, you know. I was 153 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:13.519 doing another book a few years ago. I was putting 154 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:18.960 together an anthology of true crime writing going back to 155 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:23.279 the sixteen hundreds in America. And when I was researching that, 156 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:28.720 I was just very, very very intrigued by coming across 157 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.080 all of these cases that at the time were extremely sensational, 158 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:39.039 extremely notorious, often generated nationwide publicity, but that you know, 159 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:42.960 completely had faded into obscurity, had been lost to public memory. 160 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.159 I mean, one of the things that interests me is 161 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:52.720 given the very depressing number, you know, horrific crimes that 162 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:56.320 take place all the time. Why is it that's such 163 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:59.840 a tiny number of crimes enter into the cultural mythology. 164 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.679 I mean it's not necessarily you know, the you know, 165 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.480 the the the awfulness of the crime itself. I mean 166 00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:09.919 Leopold and Lobe, for example, you know, committed this one 167 00:11:10.120 --> 00:11:14.679 kidnapping murder, which you know, as terrible as it was 168 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:19.799 just purely as a crime, was no more horrendous than 169 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.519 many other kidnapping murders of children. So there are these 170 00:11:23.559 --> 00:11:27.159 other elements, you know, these other elements that you know, 171 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:31.840 that turn these crimes into these huge phenomena. And anyway, 172 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.879 I was very interested to discover in my researches, you 173 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.200 know that again in America, because I was living myself 174 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:40.240 to American criminals, you know, going all the way back 175 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:44.000 to the seventeenth century. Periodically there would be these crimes, 176 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:46.679 and again they would generate lots and lots of attention, 177 00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:52.320 and you know, and frequently, you know, the newspapers would 178 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:56.000 describe them as you know, the worst, you know, most 179 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:59.720 monstrous crimes in the annals of history, and you know, 180 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:01.879 the time of the century and so on and so forth, 181 00:12:02.320 --> 00:12:05.600 you know, and yet you know, they're forgotten very very quickly. 182 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:08.519 So that's what I started researching for this book. 183 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:13.120 Right, well, I think, you know, just not to get 184 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.000 that too much of a discussion on that, but I 185 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.399 think one of the things that I found is if 186 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:21.159 the perpetrator is never found in a case like the Zodiac, 187 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:23.960 and again, that lends credence to what you were saying 188 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:28.200 in terms of murders not that horrible, and certainly you've 189 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:32.000 written about much horrible, more horrible murders because the perpetrator 190 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:35.080 wasn't caught and Jack the Ripper, of course it enters 191 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:40.399 into the common mythology, but just because he was never apprehended, so. 192 00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:42.679 Right, Yeah, But I mean, you know, if you think 193 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:45.480 of you know, the great you know, the Great Crime, 194 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:48.440 Lizzie Bored and again Leopold and Loebe, you know, the 195 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.720 Ruth Snyder, jud Gray Dublin Demnity case, I mean, certainly 196 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:55.879 if there is you know, there are there are cases, 197 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:57.759 as you say, I'm sure with Jack the Ripper and 198 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:00.000 the fact that he was never caught is a very 199 00:13:00.120 --> 00:13:02.360 very big contributing factor. But I mean there are other, 200 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:07.799 you know, very infamous cases like the Cleveland Torso killer 201 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:11.120 or the x Man of New Orleans in which the 202 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:15.000 perpetrator hasn't been caught, and they haven't quite achieved you know, 203 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.200 the kind of cultural statuses other crimes have. So I 204 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:21.840 mean there is you know, I mean, it's it's difficult 205 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.840 entirely to pinpoint all the reasons. You know, there's something about, 206 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.559 you know, the particular story and the way it strikes 207 00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.759 a kind of chord at the time, partly because I 208 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:36.960 think it tends to embody certain kinds of anxieties and 209 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.039 issues that are very, very prominent. For example, Leopold and Lobe, 210 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.159 you know, as a kind of quintessential jazz age crime. 211 00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:47.840 There was so much obsession at the time about what 212 00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.840 they used to call the flaming youth who are completely 213 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:54.159 out of control, and somehow Leopold and Lobe, you know, 214 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:59.120 seem to be the living incarnations of this cultural fear, 215 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:01.720 you know, in the same way Charles Manson, you know, 216 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.879 it's like every you know, parents' worst nightmare of the 217 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:13.080 drug crazed hippie, you know. So anyway, yeah, yeah. 218 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:15.200 Now, the in terms of and before we introduce this 219 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:22.320 bevy of infamous killers, now to the infamous killers. Have 220 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:26.000 killers changed over the last three hundred years? Is there 221 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.000 any difference in their motivation. 222 00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:31.840 We'll say, uh, well, in terms of the killers that 223 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:34.679 I tend to write about, I would say no, uh, 224 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:38.879 you know, certainly again in regard to what we now 225 00:14:38.919 --> 00:14:41.960 call serial murderers. And let me just say that not 226 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.759 every not every criminal that I cover in this particular 227 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:49.360 book is a serial killer. But in terms of serial killers, 228 00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:53.240 you know, again the name has changed, but the you know, 229 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:57.679 the the modus operande and the and the psychological motives 230 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:01.519 pretty much remain the same. You know, these are sexual 231 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:07.120 psychopaths who, for whatever reason again you know, derive you know, 232 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.960 they achieve kind of you'd have to say, almost ecstasy 233 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:17.639 in torturing and exerting this power over their victims. And 234 00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.879 again I think that's just a perennial phenomenon, you know. 235 00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.759 I mean, one could say, I suppose in certain cases, 236 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:28.039 you know, there are technological changes in terms of the 237 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:32.840 kinds of weapons they might use. But otherwise, you know, 238 00:15:32.919 --> 00:15:37.639 I mean, you know, for example, there are some killers 239 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:43.320 I cover who would find their victims through classified ads 240 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:47.639 in these lonely hearts, you know, newspapers and stuff, you know, 241 00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:50.960 nowt they'd use the internet, you know, but basically it's 242 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:51.799 the same thing. 243 00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:56.159 Well, let's do that as an introduction then to somebody 244 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:59.799 that did use not the Internet obviously, but use the 245 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:04.480 Lonely Hearts club in a Midwest and he was the 246 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:09.360 Bluebird of quite Quietville. And this is Harry F. 247 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:09.840 Powers. 248 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.360 So tell us about tell us about Harry F. 249 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:20.440 Powers please. Well, he was this rather dumpy, unattractive man 250 00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:26.960 married who would contact lonely widows. He was he lived 251 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:32.039 in West Virginia, again, contacting them through these Lonely Hearts clubs, 252 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.840 which were you know, I guess you know, the nineteen 253 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.879 thirties equivalent of match dot com and so on. And 254 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:45.879 he would, you know, he was presentable enough, he obviously, 255 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:50.039 would create these false identities and present himself as a 256 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:55.480 well to do widower and ingratiate himself with these women 257 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:02.480 and then lure him lure them to this, you know, 258 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:07.440 basically torture chamber that he had constructed on a piece 259 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.880 of property in a little village called Quiet Dell, and 260 00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:17.200 trap them in the basement and subject them to various 261 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:19.359 tortures and kill them. I mean, in one case he 262 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:24.039 killed a woman and both her children, and in another 263 00:17:24.119 --> 00:17:27.400 case he killed one other woman that he had lured 264 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:32.079 there and his crimes. You know, eventually friends of the 265 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:36.079 victims became very suspicious about the disappearance of these people, 266 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.759 and he was tracked down and tried. It was a very, 267 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:46.039 very again notorious case that was covered nationally, and you know, 268 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:49.079 he was ultimately executed. One of the things that's always 269 00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:52.160 interesting to me and that I deal with in the 270 00:17:52.160 --> 00:18:00.000 book is back in the old days, almost invariably popular 271 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:05.200 or ballads would be written about these crimes. Yeah, and 272 00:18:05.559 --> 00:18:08.519 you know, sometimes as in the case of Harry Powers, 273 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:11.960 who's also named his real name apparently was Hermann Drenth. 274 00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:16.519 He was actually an emigrat from Belgium. Harry Powers was 275 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:21.400 his adopted American name, although he thought he snared his 276 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:25.039 victims under a variety of other pseudonyms. But you know, 277 00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:28.559 his actual sheet music that exists for some of these 278 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:33.720 ballads that are written about them. 279 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:31.000 You know. 280 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.640 But you know, actually there's a documentary movie that. 281 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:39.680 I believe Judy was boring. Hello, then Judy discovered jumba 282 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:40.839 casino dot com. 283 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:42.400 It's my Little escape. 284 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:44.720 Now Judy is the life of the party. Oh baby 285 00:18:44.839 --> 00:18:47.599 Mama is bringing home the bacon. WHOA take it easy? 286 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.759 Judy the Jumble Life is for everybody. 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So interesting. 305 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.039 Yeah, I wanted to say too, before we go any further, 306 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:47.759 I wanted to say that it was amazed and very 307 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:49.880 happy to see all the great photos that you were 308 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.319 able to put into this book and the posters and 309 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:57.200 the original media literature that was all at that time. 310 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.559 Just it's incredible. It takes you back. You know, a 311 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:02.799 lot obviously, lots of this historical crime, that's what this is, 312 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:06.319 but amazing stuff that you've been able to gather. 313 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:09.079 So well, that's another thing that's interesting to me. I mean, 314 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:11.839 you know, you you you hear a lot of people complaining, 315 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.279 you know, somehow about our you know, contemporary fascination with 316 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:20.000 as you know, crime stuff, as though it's some you know, 317 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:24.799 particular symptom of you know, like our you know, societal rot. 318 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.559 You know that the society's going to help. But when 319 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.160 you look back, I mean, you know, you see everything 320 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:35.440 that is characteristic now of our culture was true back then. 321 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:39.839 You know, instant true crime books, you know, people dealing 322 00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:43.119 in what is now called murder abelia, you know, collecting 323 00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:50.799 souvenirs of crime scenes and souvenirs of notorious criminals. So again, 324 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:54.279 you know, it's a plus a change nothing really, you know, 325 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:56.599 it's a Bible says there's no new thing under the sun, 326 00:20:57.160 --> 00:21:02.720 and that relates to you know, the public purient interest 327 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.559 you know in these kinds of sensational crimes. 328 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:09.599 Absolutely and we'll talk about a little bit more about too, 329 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:14.440 about the gruesome souvenir and people's attraction to that, and 330 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:17.960 also things like how many people were at the potential 331 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:20.880 lynching and how many people were at the hanging, so 332 00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:26.400 it was pretty big entertainment event. Actual, let's talk about 333 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.720 Lydia Sherman and she was a Crown America's Queen poisoner 334 00:21:31.400 --> 00:21:33.880 by the media told us about Lydia Sherman. 335 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:39.079 Well, you know, Lydia Sherman was one of several very 336 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:46.799 notorious nineteenth century serial poisoners. And one thing that actually 337 00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:50.839 interests me quite a bit about that particular breed of 338 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.680 serial murderer has to do with the fact that there 339 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:56.440 are female serial murders. You know, for a long long time, 340 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:02.039 you know, people would think that Aileen Warnos, you know, 341 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:07.680 was called the first female serial killer, which is completely 342 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.200 wrong because you know, again throughout history, there have been 343 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:13.720 hundreds and hundreds of female serial killers. In fact, I've 344 00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:17.480 been in contact recently with a gentleman who's been compiling 345 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:22.039 history of it, and he's come up with astonishing number 346 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:30.839 of cases internationally. But what's interesting is that it's true 347 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.680 that there is no such thing as the culture critic 348 00:22:34.720 --> 00:22:38.480 Camille Pogley has said, there's no female Jack the Ripper, 349 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.519 But that doesn't mean there are no female serial killers. 350 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.359 It just means that female serial killers tend to commit 351 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:49.440 their crimes in a very different way than male serial killers. 352 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.000 Or to put it another way, you know that kind 353 00:22:52.039 --> 00:22:56.440 of you know, mutilation murder that we associate with Jack 354 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.720 the Ripper or you know, other males serial killers of 355 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:04.400 that type, that's a very very male form of serial murder. 356 00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:09.640 Lydia Sherman, you know, personifies a particularly female form of 357 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:15.039 serial murder, which is to say that she and others 358 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.559 like her, you know, tend to mittle murder strangers the 359 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:21.920 way many many serial killers, male serial killers do. In fact, 360 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:24.720 most serial killers do, you know, They tend to murder 361 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:29.799 family members, friends, people they have some kind of emotional 362 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.000 intimate relationship with. And they also do not indulge in 363 00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:38.240 that kind of penetrative phallic penetrative, you know, using a 364 00:23:38.319 --> 00:23:44.279 knife or you know whatever, mutilation murder. What they tend 365 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.440 to do is poison their victims. And Lydia Sherman, you know, 366 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.119 was a very very prolific poisoner, you know, who bumped 367 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:55.440 off a bunch of her husbands. I can't remember offhand 368 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:58.279 exactly how many of her children and step children she killed, 369 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:02.200 but you know, it's a very pressive number and began. 370 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.440 She was only one of several what they called American 371 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:09.200 borges at the time. There was another one, Sarah Jane Robinson, 372 00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:13.200 and both Lydia Sherman and Sarah Jane Robinson were followed 373 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:17.640 by a nurse named Jane Toppin, who, until John Wayne 374 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:21.680 Gacy's crime spree, was considered to be the most prolific 375 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:26.119 serial murderer in American history. She killed about thirty one people, 376 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:31.799 again by poison. The other thing to keep in mind is, 377 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:37.640 in many respects, dying by dying at the hands of 378 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:42.279 one of these female poisoners was much more horrific, you know, 379 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:45.039 than dying at the hands of Jack the Ripper. You know, 380 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.920 you associate Jack the Ripper with these horrendous mutilations, but 381 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:52.880 the mutilations were all performed post mortem. He actually killed 382 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:56.680 his victims very very swiftly, whereas people like Lydia Sherman 383 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.480 and Jane Toppin and Sarah Jane Robinson, you know, arrived 384 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:08.599 extreme perverse sexual pleasure from doling out very slow, agonizing 385 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:11.839 death to their victims, you know, watching them die over 386 00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.480 an extended span of time, sometimes bringing them very very 387 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:20.599 close to death by administering certain combinations of poisons and 388 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.599 then pulling them back so they could toy with them more. 389 00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:30.279 And Jane Toppin, for example, confess to when she finally 390 00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:33.240 decided it was time for one of her victims to die, 391 00:25:33.759 --> 00:25:37.079 she would administer the fatal dose and then get into 392 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:41.000 bed and embrace the person while they were dying and 393 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:45.519 have an orgasm while the person was undergoing their death. Ros. 394 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.599 So you know, it was a classic case again of 395 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:55.480 sexual sadistic serial murder, but done in this female form, 396 00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:00.400 so quite evil. Yeah, yeah, evil. 397 00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:03.160 Yes. 398 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:04.640 Now let's move on to. 399 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:13.039 As the evil scale increases here, let's talk about a 400 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:20.200 Joseph Lapage or Lapage. Talk about Joseph Lapage please. 401 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:28.519