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Are you feeling lucky? 28 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:56.719 No? 29 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:57.399 Be necessary? 30 00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:59.640 Foid my long eighteen plus terms conditions of plus what's 31 00:00:59.640 --> 00:01:00.039 every y. 32 00:01:07.719 --> 00:01:11.159 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 33 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:14.280 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 34 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:21.640 written about him. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 35 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:25.359 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 36 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.640 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 37 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:42.200 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 38 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:45.760 Doctor Michael Baden has been involved in some of the 39 00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:49.400 most high profile civil rights and police brutality cases in 40 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:54.280 US history, from the government's nineteen seventy six reinvestigation of 41 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:57.640 the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. To the twenty 42 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.879 fourteen death of Michael Brown, whoy spark the initial Ferguson 43 00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:05.519 protests that grew into the Black Lives Matter movement. The 44 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:09.520 playbook hasn't changed since nineteen seventy nine, when doctor Baden 45 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:12.439 was demoted from his job as New York City's chief 46 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:15.759 medical Examiner after ruling that the death of a black 47 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:19.599 man in police custody was a homicide. So in twenty twenty, 48 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:22.520 when the Floyd family, weary of the same system that 49 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:27.520 oversaw Michael Brown's death, needed a second opinion, doctor Baden 50 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:31.319 is who they call in these pages, doctor Baden chronicles 51 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:33.919 his six decades on the front lines of the fight 52 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.639 for accountability within the legal system, including the long history 53 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:42.879 of medical examiners using a controversial syndrome called excited delirium, 54 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:45.400 a term that shows up in the pathology coort for 55 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:48.560 George Floyd to explain away the deaths of black and 56 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:52.680 people of colored restrained by police. In the process, he 57 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:55.520 brings to light the political issues that go on in 58 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.319 the wake of often unrecorded fatal police encounters and the 59 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:03.520 standoff between law enforcement and those they are sworn to protect. 60 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:08.400 Full of behind the scenes drama and surprising revelations, American 61 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:12.719 Autopsy is an invigorating and enraging read that is both 62 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:16.800 timely and crucial for this turning point in our nation's history. 63 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.280 The book they were featuring this evening is American Autopsy, 64 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:24.719 One medical examiners decades long fight for racial justice in 65 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:28.919 a broken legal system. With my special guest, forensic pathologist 66 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:33.599 and former Chief Medical Examiner of New York City and author, 67 00:03:33.879 --> 00:03:36.599 doctor Michael Baden. Welcome to the program, and thank you 68 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:40.560 so much for this interview, Doctor Michael Baiden. Dan, thank 69 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:44.039 you so much for this interview. Let's start off initially 70 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.120 right away, because a lot we have so much to 71 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.479 cover in this extraordinary book that has really chronicles your 72 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.639 career and the evolution of your career and your entry 73 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:58.759 into this fight for civil rights. Let's talk about your start. 74 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:01.439 You say you were in night eighteen sixty. You were 75 00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:04.800 working at Bellevue Hospital in New York City in the 76 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:08.879 emergency department, and you had a wife, Judy Anne, and 77 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:11.520 a daughter, Trisa, which was one years old. And you 78 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.400 had two jobs at that time, an intern in internal 79 00:04:14.439 --> 00:04:18.079 medicine three nights a week, and also an assistant medical 80 00:04:18.120 --> 00:04:20.959 examiner and a tour doctor. Tell us a little bit 81 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.600 about your start as a forensic pathologist and why you 82 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:26.839 chose this career. 83 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:27.360 Yeah. 84 00:04:27.480 --> 00:04:30.360 I graduated from City College in New York went to 85 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:36.160 NYU Medical School with the idea of becoming an internal 86 00:04:36.199 --> 00:04:40.800 medicine doctor treating living patients. While at NYU Medical School, 87 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:46.959 which was connected to Bellevue Hospital, the medical Examiner's office 88 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:51.560 was located in the basement of Bellevue, and I went 89 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:55.040 there to see a patient that I had seen as 90 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.279 a medical student who died of a drug overdose, and 91 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.839 went to see the autopsy that was performed by the 92 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:09.199 medical examiner and became very interested immediately in autopsy procedures, 93 00:05:09.360 --> 00:05:12.319 in the anatomy of the body, in the amazing way 94 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.680 in which cells talk to each other, trillions of cells 95 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.040 that all know where to be to make us a person, 96 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:22.759 and anatomy appeal to me very much, so I began 97 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:27.000 working going as a medical student to see and participate 98 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:31.120 in autopsies in the medical Examiner's office. Now, unlike the 99 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:38.120 hospital where people are treated mostly for natural diseases cancer, 100 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:45.279 heart disease, the medical examiner investigates deaths that are unnatural 101 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:52.560 accidents suicide, homicide, drug overdoses. Part of the autopsy information 102 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:56.399 that's gathered by the Medical Examiner's office, which I found 103 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:03.680 intriguing and fascinating and was very attracted to. So I 104 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:07.480 started working as a volunteer in the medical Examiner's office. 105 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.720 They told me how to do autopsies as I when 106 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:15.279 I got my license to practice medicine and graduation from 107 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.519 a medical school, I became an employee paid employee of 108 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.600 the Medical Examiner's office, going to scenes of death. The 109 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:27.839 autopsy starts at the death scene, as you can see 110 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:31.680 in many television programs, where the first thing that happens 111 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:36.839 when somebody dies unnaturally is a examination of the circumstances 112 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:41.519 of death, where how the person died, how the person 113 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.680 was found before the body ever gets to the medical 114 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:50.199 examiner's office to be autopsied. And I began as a 115 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:54.040 tour doctor. In evenings, at nights, I'd be an intern 116 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:58.959 resident at Bellevue in the daytime, proceeding with my interest 117 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.040 in internal medicine, and in the evening I'd go to 118 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:07.600 scenes of death and weekends holidays participate in the work 119 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:11.399 in the morgue itself. So that's how I got started, 120 00:07:11.600 --> 00:07:15.199 and it was just fascinating to me to see how 121 00:07:15.199 --> 00:07:18.519 many different ways people can die, then how much can 122 00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:22.360 be learned at the autopsy table as to what causes 123 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:24.879 death and how to prevent death. And I felt that 124 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:31.600 with time that I'd be more useful to society if 125 00:07:31.600 --> 00:07:35.240 I became one of the very few forensic pathologists that 126 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.959 were being developed instead of the thousands of internal medicine 127 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:43.319 people that are quite good. And that got me toward 128 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:46.199 changing from internal medicine to pathology. 129 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:47.120 We go ahead. 130 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:50.000 You write ahead about nineteen sixty four, and you were 131 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:54.079 chief resident in pathology at Bellevue Hospital, but this chief 132 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:58.959 psychiatrist there, Weinstein, he called you, and so people recognized 133 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:02.399 how ambitious you were. And so this was about the 134 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:06.639 Career girls murders. What did you learn there your first experience, 135 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.720 I guess in seeing how the medical examiner also worked 136 00:08:10.759 --> 00:08:14.879 with police and the prosecution in cases. So what did 137 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.240 this doctor Weinstein expose you to? 138 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:22.519 I was his chief pathologist, resident at Bellevue at the 139 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.040 time and working part time in the Medical Examiner's office. 140 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:31.199 And there was a murder that captured the attention of 141 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.840 the public called the Career Girl's murder, where two young 142 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.159 girls who worked in New York City and had parents 143 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:43.799 of significance were found dead and a black man, a 144 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:47.200 young black man, was arrested. After a year long Searts 145 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:51.720 was arrested, claimed his innocence and the police said, well 146 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:56.480 he confessed at that time and still now. When there 147 00:08:56.480 --> 00:08:59.759 are psychiatric issues that come up, one of which is 148 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:04.679 a person is going to trial psychiatrically fit to go 149 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:09.440 to trial and could participate in his defense, the patient 150 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:15.639 would be brought to Bellevue Hospital Psychiatric Prison Service. Doctor 151 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:17.919 Weinstein was in charge of that. He called me over 152 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:22.559 in this case when they were investigating the death of 153 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:26.080 the career girls and said, I want to show you something, 154 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.120 and he showed me a confession and said to me, 155 00:09:29.960 --> 00:09:34.559 this is a typical planted confession where all the information 156 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:38.840 is given to the individual just answers yes or no. 157 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:44.720 And the police considered that an admission and true was true. 158 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:50.039 This individual that his alleged confession about which they based 159 00:09:50.080 --> 00:09:54.600 the restaurant contained questions like wasn't it seven o'clock at 160 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:56.919 night that you entered their apartment? 161 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.519 Yes? Was one of the girls undressed? Yes? 162 00:10:01.120 --> 00:10:06.000 And that was about thirty pages of yes's. And he said, 163 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:10.039 this is typically a planted confession and is not an 164 00:10:10.120 --> 00:10:15.879 actual confession. And I suddenly had the understanding that not 165 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:22.440 everything that is done by police is proper, because I, 166 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.600 like all other medical examiners in the country, learn first 167 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:31.519 about medical examiner work, working very closely with police, and 168 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:36.879 accept them as really guardians of society. And here there 169 00:10:36.759 --> 00:10:42.000 were police were obviously arresting somebody and claiming somebody murdered 170 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:45.440 these two people on the basis of his confession, which 171 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:48.120 really wasn't a confession. It turned out a few months 172 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:53.200 later that the real perpetrator confessed and was caught and 173 00:10:53.320 --> 00:10:57.759 had evidence of the death and wound up being convicted. 174 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:03.000 And the black young man, Whitmore, was stayed in jail 175 00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:05.960 for a long time even after that, before he was 176 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:06.960 finally released. 177 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:08.000 Right, it was my. 178 00:11:08.039 --> 00:11:12.120 First impression really that hey, there's something wrong here in 179 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:18.840 how justice has served. And that began my concerns about 180 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.960 the criminal justice system as involves medical examiners. 181 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:25.639 Right, you say two cases emerged that made you question everything, 182 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:30.480 especially a term and a diagnosis called psychosis with exhaustion. 183 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.799 This is a summer of sixty seven. You were thirty 184 00:11:32.799 --> 00:11:36.559 three years old, working full time at the medical Examiner's office. 185 00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:39.600 Tell us about Eric Johnson and Rikers Island. 186 00:11:39.879 --> 00:11:44.039 Yeah, I started then when I finished my training at Bellevue, 187 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:47.080 became a full time medical examiner for the City of 188 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:51.399 New York. And one of the early deaths that occurred 189 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:55.159 was a prisoner at Rikers Island. You know, somebody who's 190 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:59.519 been jailed there awaiting trial, who apparently got in a 191 00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:04.559 struggle with guards at Rikers and wound up being sprayed 192 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:10.320 with tear gas and died during the altercation with police. 193 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:15.279 And when the blackmail came to the medical Examiner's office 194 00:12:15.519 --> 00:12:19.600 and had marks on his neck and had particular hemorrhages 195 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:24.120 hemorrhages in the eyes that are happened when there is 196 00:12:24.399 --> 00:12:28.200 death from neck compression, choking pressure on the neck and 197 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:32.320 caused little hemorrhages in the eyes. And this person died 198 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:37.240 while there was tear gas. Nobody saw the death. The 199 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.240 three guards who were in with him and did the 200 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:43.120 tear guessing had guess vests on before they did that, 201 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.559 and it seemed to me that he died from choking, 202 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.840 being choked to death during the struggle that was covered 203 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:55.279 up by the tear gas fumes. And when the case 204 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:59.279 was done and the chief medical examiner, after the mayor 205 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:02.399 had called you a couple of times, determined that he 206 00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:07.320 had died of being overly exerting himself in the struggle, 207 00:13:07.879 --> 00:13:12.240 listed on the death certificate as psychosis with exhaustion. 208 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:15.679 The idea being that the. 209 00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:18.879 Individual got so excited struggling with the police that he 210 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:24.120 died of internal biochemical reaction of some sort, and it 211 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:27.639 was really natural death, not a homicide, which it would 212 00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:30.159 be you are choke to death during the tear gassing. 213 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:36.240 This psychosis with exhaustion has now turned into another term, 214 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:42.240 excited delirium, and that was my introduction to the close 215 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:47.879 bond between medical examiners and police. When civilians, unarmed people 216 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.960 died during altercations with police, and the reason they die 217 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:58.879 is because they can't breathe. With Eric Johnson, the person 218 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:02.759 died there was impression of the neck which caused marks 219 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:07.159 on the outskin hemorrhage underneath the skin, marks in the 220 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:11.960 eyes as a result of that. When police subdue somebody 221 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:17.159 who is not obeying commands, like usually they are persons 222 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:21.360 who have psychiatric disorder, not taking their medication or heart 223 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:25.159 on drugs of abuse, so the police called in because 224 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.679 they're misbehaving. The first thing police will often do is 225 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:30.679 say put your hands behind your back so we can 226 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.519 put handcuffs on. If the individual doesn't obey those orders, 227 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:38.320 then they take them down to put him on the 228 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:41.879 ground and handcuff him from behind while he's prone on 229 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:45.639 the ground, face down on the ground, while pressing on 230 00:14:45.679 --> 00:14:48.080 his back to be able to get his wrists together 231 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.080 for the handcuffs. Often there's enough pressure on the back 232 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:56.320 prone back to prevent the diaphragms from moving up and down, 233 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:00.759 which the diaphragms order. We breathe about fifteen eighteen times 234 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.360 a minute because our diaphragms are going up and down. 235 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.000 Every time they go down, they suck in air into 236 00:15:06.039 --> 00:15:09.399 the lungs, and every time they go up they push 237 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:13.960 air out, and that happens. That's part of our life, 238 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:18.519 breathing necessary to stay alive with prone pressure that prevents 239 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:24.720 the breathing. But the medical examiners, myself included, initially couldn't 240 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:29.639 believe that the police would cause deaths of individuals from 241 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:34.799 the way they subdue them, and that's where the concept 242 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:39.039 of excited delirium was developed. That the person died not 243 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:45.639 from pressure interference with breathing, but with adrenal glands making 244 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:50.720 too much adrenaline was the main theory behind excited delirium, 245 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:54.480 which is widely used by medical examiners, unfortunately as junk science, 246 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:57.799 but it takes the police off the hook, and that 247 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:02.399 was to me a further develop plopment further reincarnation of 248 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:06.720 psychosis with exhaustion is that the police did not have 249 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:09.799 anything to do with the death. That also came up 250 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:14.399 with George Floyd, and my concern as I learned about 251 00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.720 this and experienced these kinds of deaths, was that the 252 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.080 medical examiners were becoming a serious part of the problem 253 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:27.480 of how deaths caused by police officers are being whitewashed 254 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:31.799 by various diagnoses that are called natural. If a diagnosis 255 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.919 a natural excited delirium or psychosis. 256 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:38.279 With exhaustion, that's the end of the investigation. 257 00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:43.000 There's no investigator into anybody police doing anything wrong. 258 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.440 And that's how. 259 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.279 As I saw more and more of how deaths during 260 00:16:49.399 --> 00:16:55.240 police restraints developed and caused so much division division in 261 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:58.960 our society. That the division being that most of the 262 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:02.200 police are white, and a high proportion of people who 263 00:17:02.240 --> 00:17:07.319 die under these circumstances are black or brown and lead 264 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:11.599 to the kind of social unrest that the death of 265 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:16.119 Michael Brown, the death of George Floyd Tyree Nichols developed 266 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:20.119 in this showed. In this country the division has been there, 267 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:23.640 but it's now become more apparent, more obvious, and more 268 00:17:23.880 --> 00:17:27.880 divisive as social media connects people more than it used 269 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:30.880 to be. That a death in Brooklyn State in Brooklyn, 270 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:34.680 now a death in Brooklyn can immediately be seen all 271 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:38.200 over the United States. So and I think the divisions 272 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.680 that we're seeing, the racial divisions, have always been there 273 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:46.559 in our country, but have manifest themselves more obviously in 274 00:17:46.599 --> 00:17:50.400 the past kind of fifteen years, since each death became 275 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.440 more apparent to the community at large. 276 00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:57.039 Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop for a second 277 00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:57.880 for these messages. 278 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:00.640 Hello, it is Ryan, and you could all use an 279 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.920 extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to 280 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.839 make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes, 281 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.599 counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. 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Now, 293 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.960 a few days later, you write that the state police 294 00:18:46.039 --> 00:18:49.240 stormed the prison and on the September thirteen, there was 295 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:53.160 a raid with forty three people dead, ten hostages and 296 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.799 thirty three prisoners. You were there to do autopsies on 297 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:00.920 the victims. Tell us what the contentious out delegation or 298 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:05.640 assertion was regarding these hostages and the prisoners. 299 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:10.480 All the statements initially when the attica was retaken by 300 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:16.160 the state police with the deaths of forty three individuals 301 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:20.720 was that the inmates had caused the deaths, the inmates 302 00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:25.599 had killed the prisoners, and the prisoners said, and the 303 00:19:26.440 --> 00:19:28.799 families of the prisoners was no, that's not true, that 304 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:33.559 it was the guards that killed the other guards. That 305 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:39.640 ten guards were not killed by inmates, which caused the 306 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.599 police to be shooting up and shooting a lot of 307 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:48.799 the inmates. The inmates deaths were attributed to various police 308 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.400 agencies that were involved. 309 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:51.799 The deaths of the. 310 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:57.160 Ten guards were attributed to the inmates killed the guards, 311 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.960 and that's why the police had to kill so many inmates. 312 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:02.440 And there was a dispute, and I was asked to 313 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:05.319 come up and to do a second autopsy and all 314 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:09.240 of the deaths, especially of the ten guards. And my 315 00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:13.039 conclusion was after autopsying the ten guards was that they 316 00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:17.200 all died from friendly fire, that the inmates hadn't killed 317 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:22.119 any of the guards, and it also opened my eyes 318 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:27.000 to see the huge numbers of inmates who were black 319 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.119 and brown. That is the concept that was learned was 320 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:35.079 taught to us by police as we learned about being 321 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:39.440 forensic pathologists and dealing with police all types of deaths, 322 00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:44.119 but especially homicidal deaths, was that somehow there's a racist 323 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:49.039 bias built into structurally, I think, into police work. That 324 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.039 black people are more likely to be criminal, that black 325 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:58.000 people are stronger, and that's why police have to use 326 00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:02.559 successive force to subdue black and brown people has built 327 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:08.400 into the police structure, and that is adopted by medical 328 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:14.400 examiners we learn from and that then became my concern 329 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.000 is that much of the problem which is recognized, the 330 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.440 division in a racial division in our country, is recognized 331 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:26.839 to be partly due to activities of police and also prosecutors, 332 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.400 but not to realize that medical examiners, that me that 333 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:34.960 my profession is also part of the problem because we 334 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:40.640 tend to misdiagnose deaths that are caused by police and 335 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.319 correction officers, by law enforcement, and then there's no further 336 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:49.160 investigation as to how the deaths occurred and what can 337 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.000 be done to correct the problems so that there are 338 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.960 less racial deaths that occur that by themselves are horrible 339 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:00.720 but also stimulate a big divide now society. 340 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:04.640 You talk about that Attica changed your career, and after 341 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:07.359 you returned to New York, the calls came in from 342 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:11.279 all over the country and then case came up involving 343 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.119 a person named Arthur Miller, and as we talked about 344 00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:17.720 in the introduction, you were demoted and there was talk 345 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.279 of and you were convinced to sue the city. 346 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.680 By nineteen seventy eight seventy nine, I had become chief 347 00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:26.000 medical Examiner in New York City and one of the 348 00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:29.759 first deaths that I got involved with was Arthur Miller, 349 00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:34.119 who was a black businessman in Brooklyn and was involved 350 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:38.559 with an incident in which police took him to the ground, 351 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.359 put him in the police car. He said, I can't breathe, 352 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:43.799 I can't breathe. Then by the time the car got 353 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.640 to the precinct house, he was dead, and I ruled 354 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:51.079 that that was death closed by the police and it 355 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:55.200 was a homicide, and the medical examiner who was in 356 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:59.160 Brooklyn was concerned because usually they would call that death 357 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:04.960 blame on excessive reaction to the police on the part 358 00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:09.920 of the neurological reaction hormonal reaction that caused the death. 359 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.240 There was a natural death due to the fact that 360 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.079 this person didn't obey what the police told him to do. 361 00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:20.279 In that ground. I was then demoted the deputy chief 362 00:23:20.359 --> 00:23:23.920 medical examiner from chief. But what was interesting about it. 363 00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:27.400 Shortly after my demotion, I got a call from a 364 00:23:27.480 --> 00:23:31.960 young black lawyer, Johnny Cochrane, who was in California, who 365 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:35.400 was wanted an exhumation of a young man who died 366 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:39.960 in the Los Angeles area and was buried in Tennessee 367 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:45.160 and called a suicide. And he thought that the young 368 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:49.960 men had been killed by police by being strangled while 369 00:23:50.119 --> 00:23:53.599 in the county jail and asked if I would perform 370 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.039 an exhumation on the body. And that's how I got 371 00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:59.279 involved with Johnny Cochrane and a number of the leading 372 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.359 people in the civil rights movement. And the reason Cochrane 373 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:06.759 called me was because he felt that I was a 374 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.720 medical examiner who stood up to the mayor and who 375 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:12.799 stood up to in the death of Arthur Miller in 376 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.759 particular and that got me involved in that. After that, 377 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:18.160 with many other civil rights cases. 378 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:21.640 You contended that the medical Examiner's office, with this lawsuit 379 00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:25.119 you wanted. You contended that you should have independence and 380 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:27.000 not be able to be fired by the mayor. 381 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.720 Yeah. Well, when I was demoted from Chief Medical Examiner 382 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:33.519 to deputy Chief Medical examine I brought a lawsuit that 383 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.559 couldn't devote me just because they didn't like my diagnosis 384 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:39.519 was correct that that was a homicide and that was 385 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:44.200 contrary to the civil service laws which I was appointed 386 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:49.400 by civil service after an examination, the highest civil service position. 387 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:50.200 In the City of New York. 388 00:24:50.559 --> 00:24:55.839 And I sued and the court, the federal court ruled 389 00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:59.960 in my favor ordered me reinstated because the mayor couldn't 390 00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:04.000 demote me without giving inadequate reason, which he didn't have. 391 00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:07.599 He said, I was very good forensic mythologist. He didn't 392 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:11.359 like my decisions in some of my decisions, and so 393 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:14.839 in the federal court I was reinstated. But then the 394 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:19.359 city appealed, and on the appeal the circuit court said, well, 395 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:23.920 the chief medical Examiner is too close to the mayor 396 00:25:24.079 --> 00:25:28.079 and shouldn't be protected by civil service and there should 397 00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:30.920 be somebody at the mayor could appoint and fire at will, 398 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:33.839 which you can't do in civil service. And so took 399 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:37.400 the job of chief medical Examiner in New York City, 400 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.799 a medical examiner out of civil service, and therefore the 401 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.440