WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:07.160 It's night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's new video. 2 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:10.400 I call that is music to my ears. Put the 3 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:13.599 TV on mute, listen to the radio. Ladies and gentlemen, 4 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:15.480 thank you very much to call. My name is Dan Ray, 5 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:18.399 the host of night Side, and we have a big 6 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:22.160 night coming up. We will get at some point, I'm sure, 7 00:00:22.199 --> 00:00:27.120 to the stock market, because the stock market today begin 8 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:32.880 up like fourteen hundred points on the Dow and it 9 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:37.439 finished the day three hundred down, so a swing of 10 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:41.039 about seventeen hundred points on it. It's almost becoming funny 11 00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:43.520 at this point if you don't want it to laugh 12 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:47.840 or cry, and I'm not telling you to panic. We'll 13 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:51.000 talk about that later. We have a we have four 14 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:54.759 interesting guests coming up this hour on a variety of topics, 15 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:57.880 and then later on this evening when we get into 16 00:00:57.920 --> 00:01:01.479 the conversation part of the program. That's where you can participate. 17 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:05.719 Interesting article in the Globe day or so ago was 18 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:07.519 on the digital I'm not sure you're going to see 19 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:10.239 it in the print version. It's about the retrial of 20 00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:14.040 Karen Reid and whether or not people who fervently believed 21 00:01:14.599 --> 00:01:18.560 in her guilt or innocence have some of them actually 22 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:22.640 switched positions or changed their opinions. We'll get to that, 23 00:01:23.239 --> 00:01:26.599 and then I think most of you may have heard 24 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:31.719 that the website twenty three in Me has filed for bankruptcy. 25 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:34.799 Many people are worried that their personal data, in their 26 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:38.760 genetic information, in the process of this bankruptcy deal, might 27 00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:40.760 be sold to other companies. We're going to talk with 28 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:45.719 an activism director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation who can 29 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:49.079 probably answer most of our questions. But there's all sorts 30 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.040 of things going on. Christin un who says he is 31 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:54.439 not running for the Senate in New Hampshire. That's a shame. 32 00:01:54.599 --> 00:01:58.319 And Boston City councilor Tania Fernandez Anderson will plead guilty 33 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:02.120 in a federal correct case against her. You never like 34 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:06.159 to dance on anyone's grave, but certainly she has disgraced 35 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.639 herself and very difficult to do, has disgraced the Boston 36 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:11.919 City Council as well. So we'll get to all of that, 37 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.759 I'm sure, in some form of fashion later on, but 38 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:18.240 I want to start off with Scott Sutton. Scott knows 39 00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:21.840 a lot more about TikTok than I do, and he 40 00:02:22.039 --> 00:02:26.000 is the CEO of a marketing brand brand called a 41 00:02:26.120 --> 00:02:32.159 brand called later Latr. Scott Sutton, Welcome to Nightside. How 42 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:34.080 are you. 43 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:36.240 You're doing great, Dan, Thanks for having me appreciate it. 44 00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:38.960 Okay, I don't know much about TikTok. I know that 45 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:42.879 it's owned by a Chinese communist company which is probably 46 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:47.960 under the control of, not the very strong influence of 47 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:50.639 the leaders of China, and a lot of people are 48 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:53.960 concerned about the content on TikTok. Does that set up 49 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:59.319 the concern as you understand it, and you of course 50 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:00.680 really understand it. 51 00:03:02.639 --> 00:03:05.439 Yeah, I think it's It's been quite the topic on 52 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:08.360 a variety of different fronts. I think this most current 53 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:14.520 discussion is, you know, really around data privacy for American 54 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:20.439 citizens and having control of TikTok with byte Dance, with 55 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:23.479 ties back to China. And there have been lots of 56 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:27.240 discussions about the leadership and the you know, the leadership 57 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:29.840 in China having access to Americans data. So the root 58 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:32.680 of all this is coming down to data privacy. 59 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:37.520 Yeah, and data privacy, but also look, you get on Facebook, 60 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:42.280 you get on Instagram, those are American companies. The fact 61 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:46.039 that China has all of this information, how many young 62 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:48.960 people and how many people are on TikTok approximately. 63 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:52.840 I want to say in the United States it's something 64 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:57.879 like one hundred and seventy million users. It's an immense 65 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:01.599 amount of users, and the amount of content is staggering, 66 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:03.639 and the amount of information that can be gathered from 67 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.759 that content really is vast. 68 00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:12.520 Okay, So I know that our government is basically threatening 69 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:16.160 to threatening TikTok they'll shut them down unless they agreed 70 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:21.079 to a US ownership to sell it to US interest. Again, 71 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:23.480 I'm just trying to make sure that I'm following the 72 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.800 story correctly. Is that the impast that we have arrived at. 73 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:33.639 Yeah, The position has often from the Trump administration, with 74 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:37.959 Biden stepping out in the recent developments. The original ask 75 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:42.240 was to fully divest the entirety of the US entity 76 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:47.680 and give up control transfer to an American owner. Since then, 77 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:52.600 they've softened their position to allow Bidance to have fifty 78 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:55.720 percent ownership within China, but to have the large controlling 79 00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:00.079 interests be state side to better control the decision making 80 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.800 as well as access to data for ByteDance wants the 81 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:05.839 TikTok Us entity transfers hands. 82 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.519 So Trump doesn't want this to go away. He wants 83 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.160 to keep TikTok up there because I think he sees 84 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:17.800 that as a tool that he's able to use correct, correctly, correct. Yeah. 85 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:20.959 I think what we're seeing right now is TikTok is 86 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.399 caught up in a much larger foreign policy discussion along 87 00:05:24.399 --> 00:05:26.600 with the terrorists and everything going on. You've seen the 88 00:05:26.639 --> 00:05:30.199 back and forth. This is very much part of an 89 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.120 overarching negotiation around US and China. I do think that 90 00:05:34.160 --> 00:05:37.680 we want US control for the data privacy, but conceding 91 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.040 that fifty percent was very much a strategic form policy 92 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.000 move and it will continue to be a discussion as 93 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.279 we work through the kind of closure of this entire negotiation. 94 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:49.399 Okay, so thank you for bringing it to the terrorists, 95 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:53.199 because I assume that this was part of the deal. 96 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:56.199 How do you see this working out? I mean, do 97 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:02.600 you see that somehow TikTok China wants talk to remain active, 98 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:08.319 that that might give the US some leverage on tariffs, 99 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:11.720 or do you see it differently? How do you see 100 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:15.560 this wrapping up these the issues not only of tariffs 101 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:17.759 and TikTok and as they interrelate. 102 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:22.600 Yeah, I think in both the cases of TikTok and 103 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:27.720 the terriffs. You know, the Trump administration has created leverage 104 00:06:28.120 --> 00:06:30.480 and is trying to create a position of power from 105 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.240 which to negotiate, and I think what you saw this 106 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:38.040 week was a strong move with very aggressive tariffs, and 107 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:40.560 then what you saw was an openness to have discussions 108 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:43.720 to land in a middle ground, creating some type of 109 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:47.720 leverage for the United States and these forign policy discussions. 110 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:50.680 I think TikTok is also a part of that larger 111 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.199 discussion with China. There was already a tariff discussion wrapped 112 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.360 into Sentinel that wrapped earlier with a ten percent tariff. 113 00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:00.839 From when Trump originally came in, he saw an escalation 114 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:03.879 of terrorists and then the retaliatory terrorists. So right now 115 00:07:03.879 --> 00:07:06.879 there's a lot of posturing, but TikTok is caught up 116 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.879 in what is a much larger US and China relationship conversation. 117 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:15.279 Okay, so you're the expert, I'm not. At the end 118 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:18.800 of the day, does TikTok live or die? And who 119 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:20.000 controls one of your opinion? 120 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:25.160 I think one hundred percent TikTok will will remain. I 121 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:28.759 think part of Trump's original campaign and his commitment to 122 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.560 working through this deal is signaling that you know, TikTok 123 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.160 is important to American citizens. He wants to continue to 124 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:39.399 have the app in existence, and I think that there 125 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:44.079 will be a deal negotiated. To whom that is still 126 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:45.879 up in the air. It looks like Oracle and a 127 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:48.600 Group is a front runner. We saw a late bid 128 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:52.759 from Amazon last week. We've seen other parties. You know, 129 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:55.160 you have mister b center the discussion. I think ultimately 130 00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:58.680 Oracle and a Group there is the leading contender, but 131 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.000 will have to see as details emerge. 132 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.000 Do you think Elon Musk gets involved in this in 133 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.040 any way, shape or form or no. Is that not 134 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:07.519 his thing? 135 00:08:09.399 --> 00:08:10.600 I don't. 136 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:12.399 I don't see it, But at the same time, I've 137 00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.399 been surprised or less surprised by other things. 138 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:15.959 Yeah. 139 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:18.800 I think with all all that's on his plate between 140 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:23.959 you know, last last week we saw Xai acquiring x 141 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:27.000 in a forty three billion dollar buyout. He's wrapping up 142 00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:31.079 his work in Doge. It would seem Tesla's stock has 143 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:33.720 been down and he wants to refocus on some of 144 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.000 those efforts. He's already got enough on his plate. It 145 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:40.759 would seem to take on one more thing in a 146 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:43.360 very very large investment. It seems unlikely. 147 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.279 I've really enjoyed this conversation, Scott. I don't know much 148 00:08:47.320 --> 00:08:50.200 about this, but you've given me some es which have 149 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:52.320 been very helpful for me to understand it a little 150 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.360 bit better and hopefully to my audience as well. I 151 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.120 want to thank you. Tell me about your company later. 152 00:08:57.159 --> 00:08:58.919 How can folks get in touch with you? What do 153 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:01.279 you do? Want to give you a chance to just 154 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:02.279 talk about your work. 155 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:05.799 Yeah, thank you very much for that. 156 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:06.399 So later. 157 00:09:06.440 --> 00:09:09.600 As the leader in influencer marketing and social media management, 158 00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:13.519 so we post millions of posts on social media. We 159 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:16.120 help some of the largest enterprises in the world do 160 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:20.360 data driven advertising and influencer activations on social media, so 161 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:23.679 they this really is the future of marketing is on 162 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:27.399 social and we're taking a very data driven approach. So 163 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:32.240 we're seeing firsthand as consumer sentiment shifts and user sentiment 164 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:34.759 around the band comes up. We can see the actual 165 00:09:34.840 --> 00:09:39.000 data move from the post quantity investment dollars. If people 166 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.600 want to find us, it's later dot com. But a 167 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:43.840 really really interesting time to be in social media and 168 00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:45.840 appreciate the chance to talk about it with y'all. 169 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.159 And you know, Scott, you can pull out this interview 170 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:52.639 down if you folks can go to our website tomorrow 171 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.320 Nightside on Demand anytime probably after two am tomorrow morning, 172 00:09:56.639 --> 00:09:58.960 Nightside on Demand, if you would like, and you could 173 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:03.320 post this up on your website and maybe introduce some 174 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:08.039 of your followers and your brand influencers to this program. 175 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:10.320 We do this five nights a week, eight to midnight. 176 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:12.399 And you've been a really great guest. I'd love to 177 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:15.000 have you back anything. 178 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:17.559 We'd love to We're in Boston, right down the road 179 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:23.320 from y'all. We'll definitely definitely share out. Yeah, well we'll 180 00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:25.480 share out on our side as well, but always happy 181 00:10:25.519 --> 00:10:27.360 to have a conversation and support Boston. 182 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:30.279 Thanks so much, God go Boston. All right, when we 183 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:32.720 get back, we're going to change topics. We're going to 184 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:34.879 look back at the fate of a couple of generals, 185 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:40.360 Douglas MacArthur and a general, a little lesser known general, 186 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:46.480 Jonathan Mayhew Wainwright. Interesting book, The Fate of the Generals. 187 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:49.279 It's out as of April first. Those of you who 188 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:51.879 are historians are going to love this. Next guest, we'll 189 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:53.960 be back on night Side right after this. 190 00:10:55.039 --> 00:10:57.960 If you're on Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm w 191 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:00.000 Boston's news radio. 192 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:06.240 All Right, we have I think a book that it's 193 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:08.440 going to fascinate a lot of my listeners. It's called 194 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.840 The Fate of the Generals. MacArthur Wainwright in the epic 195 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.440 Battle for the Philippines, details the story of two World 196 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:17.080 War Two generals who both received the Medal of Honor 197 00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:21.360 through contrasting means of leadership with us. As Jonathan Horn, 198 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:26.000 author and former White House speech writer for George W. 199 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:30.039 Bush w as we would say, Jonathan Horn, welcome to nightside. 200 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:33.080 How are you, thanks so much for having me tonight. 201 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:39.440 You're very welcome. Wainwright is obviously less known than MacArthur, 202 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:43.480 so let's talk about what Waynwright went through. And I'm 203 00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:46.799 also I realized my dad spent two and a half 204 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:50.399 years in China, Burman, India during World War Two, and 205 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:55.000 I remember lots of talk about General Stillwell, Joe Stillwell, 206 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:58.759 and he doesn't make your book. I'm interested. It is 207 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.279 the story all around the Battle for the Philippines, as 208 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:03.279 the title would imply, and that's why it's Wayne Wright 209 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:03.919 and MacArthur. 210 00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:08.399 Well, you know, so many of us remember that famous 211 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:13.039 vow that Douglas mccarthur made I shall return, and he 212 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.679 said those words after being ordered to evacuate the Philippines 213 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:19.639 at the start of World War two when the Japanese invaded, 214 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:23.879 and he left behind his army to starvation and eventually 215 00:12:23.879 --> 00:12:27.799 to surrender. And as you said, we've forgotten the story 216 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:31.519 of the general who stayed and had to become the 217 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:35.000 highest ranking prisoner of war of World War two, and 218 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:39.559 that is Jonathan Mayhew Wainewright. And he also made a vow, 219 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.960 and his vow was to stay with his men whatever 220 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.120 the cost, and to share their fate if necessary, as 221 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:48.799 the highest ranking prisoner of war. And I think you 222 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:53.720 can't understand MacArthur's vow to return unless you understand the 223 00:12:53.840 --> 00:12:56.480 vow of the general who vowed to stay. So these 224 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.679 two vows need to be in the same book. And 225 00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:02.559 still well, of course, what was was the man in 226 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:05.240 China and Burma, and he had a very frustrating experience 227 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.759 during World War two. He's not part of this story, sure, 228 00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:12.519 because it is focused on on the Philippines and MacArthur's 229 00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:13.360 attempt to return. 230 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:18.039 So now MacArthur the better known okay uh, And of 231 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.120 course MacArthur ends up with with a problem with Truman 232 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:26.919 in Korea, and eventually uh Is is basically, I guess, 233 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.879 not discharged, but but but he he basically has to 234 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:35.279 comply with what the civilian leadership said during the Korean War. 235 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:40.240 Did did MacArthur want to lead? Tell me why? Why 236 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:42.600 did one leave in the other and the other stay? 237 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.279 What's the what's the story behind that? I'm sure that's 238 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:47.919 the critical nature of the book. 239 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.039 That's a great question. And the answer is MacArthur received 240 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:56.559 orders from President Roosevelt to leave the Philippines. He was 241 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:00.919 prepared to die if necessary there, but the thinking in 242 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:04.320 Washington was MacArthur was too important to go down with 243 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:06.120 the ship, if you can believe it, because he's become 244 00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:08.799 a symbol for what it was so hard to find 245 00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:11.200 in the world in nineteen forty two. In early nineteen 246 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.200 forty two, because at that time it looked like the 247 00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:17.279 Japanese were just succeeding everywhere they went, and the only 248 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.159 place that Americans could see evidence of resistance was the Philippines. 249 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:23.799 And because MacArthur was in charge of the radio, when 250 00:14:24.080 --> 00:14:26.600 you know the power of the radio, all the communicators 251 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.279 out of the Philippines mentioned one guy, and that was MacArthur, 252 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:32.000 so he was thought to be too valuable to let 253 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:34.240 go down with the ship, and Wainwright took over. 254 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:41.440 So waine Wright ends up captured with the as surrender. 255 00:14:41.519 --> 00:14:43.399 I guess the troops surrender, correct. 256 00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:48.559 Correct, And in fact, tomorrow is the anniversary of the 257 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:52.639 surrender of Batan, which is the largest surrender in American history. 258 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:56.759 Nearly eighty thousand forces surrendered on April ninth, nineteen forty 259 00:14:56.799 --> 00:14:59.159 two in the Philippines or United States forces. 260 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:02.440 Is the Death March of Batan. 261 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.639 That is the Death March. Wainwright fights the one for 262 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.679 one more month on the nearby island of Krigador, and 263 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.639 then he'll have to ultimately surrender and also surrender all 264 00:15:11.720 --> 00:15:15.039 the Philippine islands, which were back then most people forget 265 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:16.799 they were an American colony at the time. 266 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:22.759 Sure, so, Wainwright is a pow, highest ranking pow in 267 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:24.759 the history of the United States Armed Forces. 268 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.200 He was certainly the highest of World War Two. He 269 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:31.600 was a lieutenant general when he was taking pow. And 270 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:35.080 he you know, the Japanese did not treat prisoner as 271 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:37.960 well they as many American commanders learned in the Pacific. 272 00:15:38.200 --> 00:15:41.600 The Japanese themselves did not believe in surrender, and they 273 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:44.600 had no respect for those who did surrender. So Wainwright 274 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:48.759 will face systematic starvation. He will be beaten and tortured, 275 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:51.360 and the Japanese will try to use him for propaganda, 276 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.320 and of course they isolate him in ways that really 277 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:56.639 are in himself torture. 278 00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.720 Well, a lot of the POWs in Vietnam saw that 279 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.159 as well, well McCain and others who are held prisoner 280 00:16:02.360 --> 00:16:07.159 of war during the Vietnam War. So how does we 281 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.039 know how the story ends for macarthy? He returns, he 282 00:16:11.080 --> 00:16:13.919 gets a lot of the glory and eventually is in 283 00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:18.679 charge in Korea and defies Truman, and Truman brings him 284 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:20.480 to heal. How does it end for Waynwright? 285 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:24.120 Well, Wayne Wright will spend the rest of the war 286 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:27.240 as a prisoner. In fact, the Japanese move him around. 287 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:30.960 They bring him from the Philippines to Taiwan and eventually 288 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.440 all the way to Manchuria. Wainwright will face negative forty 289 00:16:34.519 --> 00:16:37.440 nine degree temperatures. I mean, this really uses a story 290 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.440 of survival in addition to courage and sacrifice. And in 291 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.320 the end of the war he is eventually taken out 292 00:16:45.320 --> 00:16:46.879 of prison and If you look at the photo of 293 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:50.440 MacArthur on the USS Missouri at the end of the war, 294 00:16:50.799 --> 00:16:54.480 you will see Wainwright standing behind him and MacArthur will 295 00:16:54.519 --> 00:16:56.879 hand him one of the pens he uses to sign 296 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:58.080 the instrument of surrender. 297 00:16:58.639 --> 00:17:00.840 Wow. What a great story or what a great book. 298 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:02.960 The book has come out on April first, so it's 299 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:04.960 available right now, Jonathan. 300 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.400 Right April fifteenth, next week, but it's available for pre 301 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:09.839 order wherever books are sold. 302 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.880 Oh, okay, okay. The fate of the generals Macartha, Wainwright 303 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:19.039 and the epic Battle for the Philippines. So let me 304 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.039 tell you. Why was last question? Why did the Japanese 305 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:25.160 spare Wayne Wright's life? I mean they they could have 306 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:32.240 killed them. How was it American troops that found him 307 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.240 in Manchuria? How did that or was it Chinese troops 308 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.640 who were our ally at the time that that liberated 309 00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:39.720 him in Manchuria? 310 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:44.359 You know, that's a fabulous question. And people in Washington 311 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:47.200 were really worried what the Japanese might do to Wayne 312 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:50.119 right as the war was ending, So a special OSS 313 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:53.200 team was sent to go find Wainwright. The OSS, being 314 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.240 the precursor to the CIA, was sent to go land 315 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:59.920 and jump into Manchuria and find Wainwright, and they did 316 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.519 locate him, and ultimately he left that prison if you 317 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:05.559 can believe it with Soviet troops who were coming through 318 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:06.720 Manchuria themselves. 319 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.400 Yeah, no, it doesn't. That does not surprise me at all. 320 00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:11.039 But that's a that's a great story to learn in 321 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.759 the book as well, Jonathan. I really enjoyed it very 322 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.440 very much, and keep us posted on your other other books. 323 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:21.920 Would like to keep in touch with you, okay, and 324 00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:23.559 thank you so much for having me on tonight. I 325 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:24.480 enjoyed the conversation. 326 00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:27.319 Well, I hope that this book becomes This is a 327 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:29.480 This is a great book. This is a book when 328 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:33.640 I think of Father's day books for fathers or grandfathers, 329 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:36.839 this is the one, folks that I think, if you 330 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:39.799 give it to your grandfather, if he happened to be 331 00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:45.079 a World War Two veteran, or are you whatever, the 332 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:47.680 Fate of the Generals, this is one I'm going to read. 333 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.000 Thanks Jonathan very much. Jonathan Horne, the author of the 334 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:53.720 Fate of the Generals, MacArthur Wainwright and the Epic Battle 335 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.960 for the Philippines. Thanks again, I really enjoyed this conversation. 336 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:58.519 Jonathan, thank you too. 337 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.039 When we get right after the news at the bottom 338 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.599 of the hour. Right here in WBZ Boston's news radio, 339 00:19:04.640 --> 00:19:07.079 and by the way, we are in iHeart radio station. 340 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.160 You can easily pull down the new and improved iHeart 341 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:12.680 app and you can put us on make us your 342 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:15.519 number one presets, So we will only be a fingertip away. 343 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:19.319 Three sixty five, twenty four to seven. We're going to 344 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:24.240 follow up with the first robot assisted live liver transplant 345 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.400 at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. We'll be talking with 346 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.640 doctor Martin Dibbs. So follow up to a conversation we 347 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:32.720 had about a week ago, and I think you're going 348 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:35.279 to be fascinated by this part of the story. Back 349 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:36.519 on Nightside right after this. 350 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:42.960 It's night Side on WBZ Boston's news radio. 351 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:45.640 Well, about a week or so ago, we had a 352 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:49.039 very interesting conversation, and to be really honest with you, 353 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:54.240 I probably was so interested in the macro conversation that 354 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:57.359 I didn't focus on what we really needed to talk 355 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:02.160 about that night. So I am delighted, someone embarrassed, but 356 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:05.319 delighted to welcome back Dr Martin Dibbs. He's the surgeon 357 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:14.000 involved in a procedure the first liver transplant that involved 358 00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:20.880 the first robot assisted live liver transplant. Doctor Dibbs, welcome back. 359 00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:25.119 I appreciate you joining us because the questions your answers 360 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.440 were so fascinating I just lost track of the time. 361 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:28.920 Thanks so much for coming back. 362 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.119 And thank you so much for your interest and support 363 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:33.279 spreading the word. 364 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:39.240 So how tell us how a Well, most of us 365 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:43.279 are a little skeptical of robots. Okay, if I was 366 00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:47.240 going to have a liver transplant, I probably would be 367 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.640 looking for doctor Martin Dibbs or someone of your caliber, 368 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:57.559 and you know robots, maybe not. How long? When when 369 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:02.000 were robots first considered and and how long does it 370 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:05.000 take to get them from the first consideration to where 371 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.359 we are today? 372 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:14.440 Yeah, so robotic surgery has been here since year two thousand, 373 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.920 so there has been over twenty years of robotic surgery 374 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:22.559 in the world. First was in France in year two 375 00:21:22.559 --> 00:21:26.480 thousand and then in the US in year two thousand 376 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:29.920 and three. What it means is that you have a 377 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:36.480 robotic surgical system that helps the surgeon do exactly what 378 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:40.200 we would do open with a big incision, but with 379 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:45.680 small incisions, And it's kind of similar to what people 380 00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:51.279 you know about laparoscopic surgery, that we go inside the 381 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.400 abdomen with a camera and then we do everything we 382 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.640 would do open but with small incisions. But the robot 383 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:03.920 gives us the possibilit of having better instruments, so it 384 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:10.519 has better visualization and better ergonomics and angulation of the 385 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:14.519 instruments to be able to do more complex procedure but 386 00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.559 with minimally invasive and small incisions as opposed to the 387 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:21.200 big incisions. 388 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:24.039 So is it fair to say, I just know I 389 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:27.480 do not want to either downplay or overstate the importance 390 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.000 of the robotic aspect. Is it Is it fair to 391 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:40.920 say that the the robot's role is really to provide insight. 392 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.440 Is the robot doing the procedure or is the robot 393 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:50.640 in effect acting as the guide and telling the doctors okay, 394 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:54.119 it's okay here. We got to go here because the 395 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:59.480 robotic insertion of the instruments by the and the camera 396 00:22:59.480 --> 00:23:03.240 by the robot gives you a look at the area 397 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.200 that's being worked on more effectively than it would be 398 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.920 without the robot. Or does the robot actually do part 399 00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:10.200 of the procedure. 400 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:14.279 No, the robot doesn't do the procedure. It's not controlling 401 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:20.960