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Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 25 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:32.840 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 26 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:37.159 infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with your 27 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:51.280 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, you're listening 28 00:01:51.319 --> 00:01:53.840 to the program True Murder. The most shocking killers in 29 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:56.439 true crime history and the authors that have written about 30 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:59.959 them with your host Dan Supanski. Thirty six year old 31 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:03.719 Wayne adam Ford walked into the Humboldt County Sheriff's office 32 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:07.120 in northern California with a woman severed breast in his pocket. 33 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.280 He ended up convicted of the grizzly torture and murder 34 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:13.840 of for women, confessing to police because he couldn't stop himself. 35 00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:17.479 Based on previously sealed testimony and interviews about the key 36 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:21.560 players in the case, Body Parts is a frighteningly intimate 37 00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:24.599 look into a twisted man, overcome by the horror of 38 00:02:24.639 --> 00:02:28.199 what he had, become powerless to resist that ever increasing 39 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:33.719 perverse sexual and murderous desires within him. With unprecedented access, 40 00:02:33.759 --> 00:02:38.280 my guest author Caitlyn Rother reveals what exactly drove a 41 00:02:38.280 --> 00:02:42.039 troubled man to commit such unspeakable murders body parts with 42 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:48.120 author Caitlyn Rother. Welcome to the program, Caitlyn Rother, And 43 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:50.639 I hope I'm pronouncing your last name properly. 44 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:56.639 Okay, Well, now I'll go on from that. Caitlyn Rother, 45 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:01.919 Welcome to the program. Now, first off, what made you 46 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.599 decide to write about this case? It is a particularly 47 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.120 shocking case. What was it that compelled you decide to 48 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:12.599 write this incredible story? And finally, what unprecedented access did 49 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:16.039 you have? What information did you have that you were 50 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:16.439 privy to? 51 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:21.280 Okay, let me start with the first question. You know, 52 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:26.080 it's funny, but I've always been fascinated with serial killers. 53 00:03:26.199 --> 00:03:31.639 There's a program on MSNBC that features an interview between 54 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:34.000 Jeffrey Dahmer's parents. 55 00:03:34.439 --> 00:03:34.919 I've seen that. 56 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:37.439 I just get riveted when. 57 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:37.800 I watch that. 58 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:40.680 Even if I've already seen it, I'll watch it again. Yes, 59 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.439 but I never really thought that I was going to 60 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.400 necessarily write about this because to spend this much time 61 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:50.759 in such a dark place, I knew it was going 62 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:55.159 to be difficult, but sure, like watching an execution as 63 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.080 a journalist, I thought it was something I wanted to 64 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:01.080 do and should do. I'm going to write about this 65 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.479 type of thing. So I actually decided, you know what, 66 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:06.159 I'm going to go ahead and do this one. But 67 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:10.159 the specific reason I chose this case was that, you know, 68 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:14.000 it was grizzly, but that he turned himself in and 69 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:18.360 I think that's pretty It's not unprecedented, but it's pretty rare. 70 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:23.560 And the fact that that he walked into the sheriff's 71 00:04:23.560 --> 00:04:28.639 office with this breast and a plastic bag, it's a 72 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:32.800 pretty shocking detail that always makes people say, oh wow, 73 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:35.759 I want to know more. So it wasn't that I 74 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:38.600 wanted the gruesome and gory stuff. I'm not that type 75 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:43.480 of writer. I'm really more interested in the psychological. 76 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:43.759 Type of cases. 77 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.600 So this this book is really a psychological look at 78 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.560 this guy and his life and how did he evolve 79 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:55.040 and become this person who you know, did these horrible 80 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:57.519 things and what did he end up doing about it 81 00:04:57.560 --> 00:04:58.079 to stop? 82 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:02.040 So, yes, and you did talk. They did talk about 83 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:05.079 the unprecedented access. So I just wanted to know. I mean, 84 00:05:05.319 --> 00:05:07.680 the book is incredible and it's in its detail and 85 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.720 covers every aspect of it. So you did have you 86 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:14.160 were privy to information via that access. So tell us 87 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:17.040 what specific people or players you had access to. 88 00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:19.759 Okay, I went up. 89 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.160 I did not go to the entire trial because I 90 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:26.040 didn't know about the case until the very end of 91 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.040 the trial, and I learned that he had been convicted. 92 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:29.800 So I thought, oh, okay, well, I'm going to go 93 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:32.480 up for the death penalty trial because there's you know, 94 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:34.519 in a death penalty trial, you have a guilt phase 95 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:36.839 and then you have the penalty phase. Right, So I 96 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.560 went up for the penalty phase to San Bernardino County, 97 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.680 which is a couple hours southeast of where I'm sorry, 98 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.480 northeast of where I live here in San Diego, And 99 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:49.680 I met all the players in court that day, and 100 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:51.480 I went up to them and said, you know, I'm 101 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:53.959 interested in writing a book. Would you be willing to 102 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:57.879 cooperate with me? And pretty much everybody in the courtroom 103 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:00.360 that I talked to, you know, the attorneys on both side, 104 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:04.040 and the judge, and I got to know the clerk 105 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.680 and found out, you know that I could actually look 106 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:09.920 at some of the interviews that had been done which 107 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:13.160 became part of the evidence, and some of these interviews 108 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.399 the judge would not admit, but they were still put 109 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:20.439 into the evidence, so the jury weren't did not. 110 00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:23.279 Get to hear these things or see these things. 111 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:25.480 But I got to see them, that makes sense. So 112 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:28.399 there was an interview with his mother, for example, that 113 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:31.879 ended up not being presented in court, which was fascinating 114 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:35.519 and really telling. And there were other interviews with his 115 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:38.279 family members that nobody. 116 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.920 Had ever heard from. But I built on that. 117 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:47.800 By gaining the trust of the defense investigator, who talked 118 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:51.120 to the father and the brother of Wayne Adam Ford 119 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.879 and told them they had never been interviewed by anybody 120 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:58.639 other than police and by the attorneys, so they'd never 121 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:02.439 talked to the media. Apparently, Dan rather approached Jane Ford, 122 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:08.079 the father, and he said no. So somehow I managed 123 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:08.600 to get. 124 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:10.639 Access exclusive access. 125 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:13.959 To family members, you know, both through my own interviews. 126 00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:18.160 And I spent two days with entire days in a 127 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:23.399 hotel room talking with Jane Ford and Rodney Ford. So 128 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:27.680 quite a lot of really interesting background information that was 129 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:28.959 never revealed before. 130 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:33.079 Yes, I mean you really cover the subject of this 131 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:35.720 book and really get to his background and really cover 132 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:40.240 both sides, who I thought was very unusual for most 133 00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:43.279 books where they didn't have access to that kind of information, 134 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:45.439 So you gave both sides, and rather than trying to 135 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:48.399 make a decision based on your own opinion, you just 136 00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:51.040 presented both those sides. And that gets me to this 137 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:55.360 next question. The subject of your book is Wayne Adam Ford, 138 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:59.279 and he goes by the name often Adam. So what 139 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.639 was Wayne Adam Ford's childhood really? 140 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:02.839 Like? 141 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:05.319 I want to talk to this for a second about 142 00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:09.120 this middle name thing, which I've sort of gathered just. 143 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.240 You know, it ran in his family. 144 00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.279 His mother and his brother and his father all went 145 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:19.639 by their middle name. But I think in Wayne Ford's case, 146 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:22.720 I think he really wanted to be somebody else. He 147 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:25.600 didn't like who he was, just personal opinion, and I 148 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:28.480 think he wanted to use this other name, not just 149 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:30.959 because his other family members did that, but I think 150 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:34.000 there's been other serial killers who has done that as well, 151 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:37.080 including the one that I'm just writing finishing a book 152 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:40.679 up about now. He actually changed his name legally, So 153 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:43.720 I don't know if that's something that many serial killers 154 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:46.440 do or not, but I know at least too that 155 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.639 I've written about who's done that. But anyway, Ford's childhood 156 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:52.200 was pretty complicated. 157 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:53.279 His mother. 158 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.720 Had deep depression depending on whether you believe her, whether 159 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:02.240 you believe Wayne's defense expert. 160 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:03.039 Psychological expert. 161 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:08.200 Two suicide attempts, one of which she did in the 162 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:11.000 kitchen in front of Rodney by cutting her wrists with 163 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:12.519 a can. 164 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:13.440 I get that. 165 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:16.840 A can lid, you know, when you open a can 166 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.080 and you have the sharp I think that's what she used. 167 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:22.279 And she denied it to him, But you know, he 168 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:23.759 was eight, he could still tell. 169 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.120 What was going on. Sure, she she saw. 170 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:30.159 Things in a very different way when I you know, 171 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:32.840 you may probably noticed in the first part of the book, 172 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.519 I could not write it the way I normally did, 173 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.600 where I could say authoritative, this is what happened. Sure, 174 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:43.480 because the gene Fort had a very different version of 175 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:47.480 events than she did, claimed that she was just living 176 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:51.159 in this fantasy world. Anyway, she was very sexualized, she 177 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:55.600 was having affairs. Her husband, Jean, who was in the 178 00:09:55.639 --> 00:10:00.720 criminal intelligence in the army, was a way a lot, 179 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.279 so she was, you know, lonely and whatever else. Had 180 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:10.240 an affair even with her husband's fifteen year old brother while. 181 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:10.639 He was away. 182 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:17.759 And you know, it's there's some theories that you know, 183 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:22.759 someone in Wayne's situation growing up around that sort of situation, 184 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:24.919 doesn't know what to do with the anger and all 185 00:10:24.919 --> 00:10:27.200 this sexuality going on in his mother, and so he 186 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:32.679 ends up acting out like this. The father was a 187 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:39.679 pretty dominating character, big big, very big and tall man gruff, 188 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.519 and I think inside he was probably nicer, but he 189 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.720 comes off pretty pretty hard on the outside. And Wayne 190 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:51.600 was really scared of him. So her His father would 191 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:57.399 with banks of the boys often, but more often apparently Rodney, because. 192 00:10:57.240 --> 00:10:58.879 Rodney was the rambunctious one. 193 00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:02.600 But Jeane was so scared of him that, you know, 194 00:11:02.639 --> 00:11:05.399 he was fighting with Rodney and the fight was broken up, 195 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:08.399 and you know, he knew that when his father came 196 00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:09.919 home he was going to get in trouble for fighting 197 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:11.639 again with his brother. So he went and hid in 198 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.639 this car out in a field, and he was so 199 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:17.240 scared of what his dad was going to do when 200 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.960 he got home from work, he literally passed out in 201 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.879 the car from fear. So when his father pulled him out, 202 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.240 you know, he basically was passed out. He had to 203 00:11:26.240 --> 00:11:28.320 put him over his shoulder, bring him inside, and tell 204 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:29.919 his brother to go get him a drink of water. 205 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:32.480 So it was pretty strange. 206 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:36.159 So so Ford was a very sensitive and emotional child, 207 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.080 really took things hard and held on to his emotions 208 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:44.279 and always wanted to be around his mother and was 209 00:11:44.320 --> 00:11:47.080 clinging to her skirts a lot, but she did not 210 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:50.120 show him any affection. She even admitted to this later 211 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:53.559 on and said, you know, I should have told my 212 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:54.840 two boys that I loved him. 213 00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:58.000 I know that now, but I didn't at the time. 214 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:02.000 So he, you know, wanted affection, didn't get it from 215 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:06.000 his mother and was very dependent on her. She did 216 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:09.799 a lot of things for him. Even his teacher mentioned 217 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:11.480 this to her. You know, you shouldn't be doing so 218 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.120 much for him, tying his shoes for him, you know, 219 00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:16.600 who knows what else, because he's not able to do 220 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:18.759 these things or feels like he should do these things 221 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:23.759 for himself. So I think a combination of probably inheriting, 222 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.279 you know, a genetic predisposition to the mental illness. He 223 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.480 had depression as well. At least the defense psychologists believed that, 224 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:38.759 although the prosecution expert did not believe that, he also 225 00:12:38.840 --> 00:12:44.879 developed borderline personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder. And borderline 226 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:48.440 personality disorder basically manifests itself. 227 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:52.399 Such that they these people. 228 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:55.279 Really take abandonment very hard. So they get very attached 229 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:58.240 to people and then they see them in a very 230 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.399 black and white terms. So they love them one minute 231 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:03.240 and they hate them the next, And that pretty much 232 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:09.200 bears itself out. And I'm very familiar with this personality 233 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.320 disorder because I was married to someone who had it, 234 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:15.000 and I lived with someone who suffered from this, and 235 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:17.639 it's you know, they could be the sweetest minute, one 236 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:21.840 sweetest one minute, and then the next minute would change 237 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.240 and very it could be really very emotional and took things, 238 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:28.360 sometimes distorted things. 239 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.200 So anyway. 240 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:36.320 Says basically disorder. My personality disorders generally thought to develop 241 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.360 in the first five years. So I think a lot 242 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:41.720 of what was going on between you know, his mother 243 00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.039 and his father, they fought a lot, they weren't getting along. 244 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:49.759 The sexualization of the mother and the aggressiveness and dominating 245 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:57.159 character of his father really contributed to to Wayne turning 246 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:00.000 out the way he did. So genetics, you know, nature, nurture. 247 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.679 I can't say which is really the cause. It's in 248 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.360 an age old debate, but I think that we can see, 249 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.639 we can see a combination of those factors in him. 250 00:14:13.320 --> 00:14:16.639 Yeah, certainly, I mean, certainly, certainly, there's the argument because 251 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:21.279 we we get to our next question about his older brother, Rodney, 252 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:24.960 and you do talk about that for all intensive purposes, 253 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:28.200 at least Rodney believes, and maybe you might even believe 254 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.840 that Rodney turned out well, but you do go to 255 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:34.960 great lengths to talk about that Wayne was just seemed 256 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:38.039 to be a fragile even at a young child. So 257 00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:43.399 let's talk about Wayne's relationship with his brother Rodney, because 258 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.039 it is really important and very very significant later on. 259 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:47.840 What was their relationship really like? 260 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.559 Well, they were very close growing up because they were 261 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.240 moving around a lot, and you know, there was a 262 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:58.240 period where they actually were in Okinawa together and living 263 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:00.919 on a military base, and you know, with a depressed 264 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:04.120 mother who didn't get along with other military wives, they 265 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.000 must have been pretty miserable in that house, especially with 266 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:10.600 the fighting going on with the parents, and as I 267 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.759 detailed in the book, you know, whether or not there 268 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.559 was a gun in the house and whether there were threats, 269 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:19.200 you know, whether she really did feel in danger or 270 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:21.639 whether she was just you know, fantasizing and making this 271 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:24.480 all up. It had to it sounded like a crazy place. 272 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:26.720 So they even though they fought with each other and 273 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.159 competed with each other as many brothers do. They grew 274 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:35.200 close and they stayed close throughout their life. But more 275 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:39.360 than that, there was a special kind of twisted relationship 276 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:42.879 that they had where Wayne would do something wrong and 277 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:45.159 then confess to his brother because he knew that his 278 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.240 brother would tell on him, or that he knew his 279 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:48.440 brother would do the right. 280 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:49.399 Thing and make it right. 281 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:54.080 So when Wayne stole some items from a sporting goods 282 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.879 store when he was a teenager, he showed the stash 283 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.759 to his brother in a closet because he knew his 284 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:01.879 he knew his brother would do the right thing and 285 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:07.440 basically turn him in essentially. And you know, Wayne had 286 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:13.279 this strange, this strange fear of punishment, and yet he 287 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.159 felt like he should be punished. So there was also 288 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:19.360 an incident where he went off. Neither his mother or 289 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:21.799 father ultimately could deal with him, and so he went 290 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:27.000 to go live with a relative, one of his father's brothers, Jimmy, 291 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:30.960 and he ran away from home and figured that he 292 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:34.039 had broken the law and actually went to juvenile hall 293 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.360 or started making his way towards juvenile hall to turn 294 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:39.639 himself in because he knew he had done something wrong. 295 00:16:40.360 --> 00:16:43.000 I mean, and that really plays into what happened later. 296 00:16:43.720 --> 00:16:46.159 But so when it. 297 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.840 Came time, you know, he couldn't feel He felt like 298 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:52.679 he couldn't stop himself from killing the after killing these 299 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.440 with Lucky landslids, you can get lucky just about. 300 00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:59.919 Anywhere, nearly beloved, we are gathered here today. 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We don't know the detectives. 312 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:29.359 Some of the detectives on the case believe there are 313 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:33.839 more victims out there, but after these four that we 314 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:36.200 know about, he said he didn't He just didn't want 315 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.000 to do this anymore, and he couldn't stop, and he 316 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:42.160 was worried about killing his ex wife. So he called 317 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:45.279 his brother and again said, you know, I need your help. 318 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:49.640 I don't want to hurt people anymore. And Rodney didn't 319 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:51.119 know what the hell was going on. Actually he didn't 320 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.119 tell him that initially, but he got him to come, 321 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:54.599 I really need you, I really need you to come 322 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:58.400 down here. So Rodney drove actually up there, up into 323 00:17:58.480 --> 00:18:01.160 northern California, and then once they got there, he told 324 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.480 him he wanted to turn himself in. And you know, 325 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:08.680 Rodney said, okay, so, but he wanted details, and he 326 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.799 couldn't get detailed. So but again, you know, they have 327 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:16.119 that dynamic from from when they were younger and and 328 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:18.759 then it you know, it's still played up until the 329 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:19.119 very end. 330 00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.079 So he couldn't get any details from him. But he 331 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:28.240 was convinced that there was something seriously wrong enough to 332 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:31.119 him and his brother Wayne to go to the police 333 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:35.400 in Humboldt County to the Shaff's office. Tell us what happens, 334 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.279 give us. I mean, it's a fascinating story that he 335 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.000 calls his brother and says, you know, I'm I've hurt 336 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.240 some people something to that effect. Tell us a little 337 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:46.519 bit more about that in the actual because it's very important. 338 00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:50.880 It's very important to the trial, it's very important to anybody, 339 00:18:50.920 --> 00:18:53.839 even knowing this story. At least some people were to 340 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:55.480 say that, I think you even say that in the book. 341 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:59.000 Other people have said that tell us give us those details. 342 00:18:59.039 --> 00:19:02.440 It's a fascinating count of those of those very very 343 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:04.599 important events that happened in the next few days, but 344 00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:06.839 especially from the time he calls his brother. 345 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.640 Okay, so he calls his brother's house, actually his brother's 346 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.160 at work, talks to his brother's wife and he basically 347 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.039 just says, you know, I'm and he gets Rodney to 348 00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:19.880 call I mean, really, I'll read you the quote. He says, 349 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:21.400 I'm in some real bad trouble and I think the 350 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:22.400 police are looking for me. 351 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.599 I need your help. I need you to come get me. 352 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:29.799 So it was already by the time that they finally connected. 353 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:32.599 Rodney had actually quit his job that day and had 354 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:36.400 already driven a really long way, commuting back and forth 355 00:19:36.519 --> 00:19:38.480 five hours, and he ended up having to drive yet 356 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:43.119 another five hours to get to where his brother was 357 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:47.599 at the Ocean Grove Lodge in the seaside town of Trinidad, California, 358 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:49.880 with his Humboldt County So he drove and drove and drove. 359 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:51.039 He gets there at. 360 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:54.480 One in the morning, and this is off the Coastal 361 00:19:54.559 --> 00:19:57.480 Highway one on one for anybody who is living in 362 00:19:57.519 --> 00:20:00.880 northern California. And it's really beautiful area with a lot 363 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.279 of really tall redwood, somewhere two hundred three hundred feet tall, 364 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:11.680 and there's the lodge is like some cabins, and the 365 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:15.920 cabin where Wayne was staying is actually called Room zero 366 00:20:16.599 --> 00:20:18.839 because it used to be a barber shop and something 367 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:21.240 else and they ended up converting it, so it ended 368 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:23.759 up becoming a new room, but they'd run out of numbers, 369 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.319 I guess how they called it room zero. So he 370 00:20:26.359 --> 00:20:29.160 shows up at one in the morning and Wayne just 371 00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:33.079 looks like, hell, he's all ragged and frazzled booking, hasn't showered, 372 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:36.640 it looks like he hasn't really slept, and he's just 373 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:40.039 crying and crying, and Rodney doesn't really understand. 374 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:42.680 He's like, well, what's going on? And Wayne's crying. He's like, 375 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:45.119 I'm glad you're here. I really needed you to be here. 376 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.200 I really wanted your help. But he kept going off 377 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.079 on these jags and Rodney kept trying to understand. You know, 378 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.119 he's basically just rambling and babbling about all kinds of 379 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.720 things about their childhood and about you know. 380 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:01.039 Why we're why was his dad so mean? 381 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:04.400 And why did our mom leave us? Because they both 382 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:07.359 feel that their mom abandoned them, and the mother feels 383 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:09.480 that it was more the other way around. 384 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:11.480 So you know, it's hard to know who to believe. 385 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:14.759 But essentially they both had to get out of her house. 386 00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:16.200 So Peo look at it. 387 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:18.319 Either way and he says, well, I love you, I 388 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.279 care about you. I mean, I'm here and you know, Rodney, 389 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.400 Rodney knew that Wayne, you know, was emotional, but this 390 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:28.319 was even more emotional for him than he'd ever seen. 391 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.720 And he started talking about how he missed his boy, 392 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.319 his boy Max, who is you know, a couple. 393 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:34.720 Of years old. 394 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:37.880 He had been divorced and there was a custody battle, 395 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:43.039 but Wayne actually really didn't fight that hard. So Elizabeth 396 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:46.480 the wife, kept the kid and Wayne was only allowed 397 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.279 to see him every once in a while. But he 398 00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:51.480 really didn't even try that hard. But in his own mind, 399 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.079 he felt like he wasn't being allowed to see his son, 400 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.759 so he was complaining about that and he says, I 401 00:21:56.759 --> 00:21:59.240