Speaker 1: Step into the world of power, loyalty, and luck. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna make him an offer you can't refuse. With family,
Speaker 1: canolis and spins mean everything. Now you want to get
Speaker 1: mixed up in the family business. Introducing the Godfather at
Speaker 1: chumpacasino dot com. Test your luck in the shadowy world
Speaker 1: of the Godfather Slade. Someday I will call upon you
Speaker 1: to do a service for me. Play the Godfather now
Speaker 1: at chumpacasino dot com.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Family vdW group.
Speaker 3: No perch's necessary. If we were privited by loss he
Speaker 3: terms and conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 2: Judy was boring. Hello, Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com.
Speaker 1: It's my little escape.
Speaker 2: Now Judy is the life of the party.
Speaker 3: Oh baby Mama is bringing home the bacon.
Speaker 2: WHOA take it easy, Judy, jump the CHUMPA life is
Speaker 2: for everybody. So go to chumpacasino dot com and play
Speaker 2: over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play
Speaker 2: for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices.
Speaker 2: To jump chumpacasito dot com. No prigini formed, turning condition
Speaker 2: of details host Radio.
Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 4: killers in True crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 4: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 4: infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with your
Speaker 4: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good evening, you're listening
Speaker 4: to the program True Murder. The most shocking killers in
Speaker 4: true crime history and the authors that have written about
Speaker 4: them with your host Dan Supanski. Thirty six year old
Speaker 4: Wayne adam Ford walked into the Humboldt County Sheriff's office
Speaker 4: in northern California with a woman severed breast in his pocket.
Speaker 4: He ended up convicted of the grizzly torture and murder
Speaker 4: of for women, confessing to police because he couldn't stop himself.
Speaker 4: Based on previously sealed testimony and interviews about the key
Speaker 4: players in the case, Body Parts is a frighteningly intimate
Speaker 4: look into a twisted man, overcome by the horror of
Speaker 4: what he had, become powerless to resist that ever increasing
Speaker 4: perverse sexual and murderous desires within him. With unprecedented access,
Speaker 4: my guest author Caitlyn Rother reveals what exactly drove a
Speaker 4: troubled man to commit such unspeakable murders body parts with
Speaker 4: author Caitlyn Rother. Welcome to the program, Caitlyn Rother, And
Speaker 4: I hope I'm pronouncing your last name properly.
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, now I'll go on from that. Caitlyn Rother,
Speaker 5: Welcome to the program. Now, first off, what made you
Speaker 5: decide to write about this case? It is a particularly
Speaker 5: shocking case. What was it that compelled you decide to
Speaker 5: write this incredible story? And finally, what unprecedented access did
Speaker 5: you have? What information did you have that you were
Speaker 5: privy to?
Speaker 3: Okay, let me start with the first question. You know,
Speaker 3: it's funny, but I've always been fascinated with serial killers.
Speaker 3: There's a program on MSNBC that features an interview between
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Dahmer's parents.
Speaker 5: I've seen that.
Speaker 3: I just get riveted when.
Speaker 6: I watch that.
Speaker 3: Even if I've already seen it, I'll watch it again. Yes,
Speaker 3: but I never really thought that I was going to
Speaker 3: necessarily write about this because to spend this much time
Speaker 3: in such a dark place, I knew it was going
Speaker 3: to be difficult, but sure, like watching an execution as
Speaker 3: a journalist, I thought it was something I wanted to
Speaker 3: do and should do. I'm going to write about this
Speaker 3: type of thing. So I actually decided, you know what,
Speaker 3: I'm going to go ahead and do this one. But
Speaker 3: the specific reason I chose this case was that, you know,
Speaker 3: it was grizzly, but that he turned himself in and
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty It's not unprecedented, but it's pretty rare.
Speaker 3: And the fact that that he walked into the sheriff's
Speaker 3: office with this breast and a plastic bag, it's a
Speaker 3: pretty shocking detail that always makes people say, oh wow,
Speaker 3: I want to know more. So it wasn't that I
Speaker 3: wanted the gruesome and gory stuff. I'm not that type
Speaker 3: of writer. I'm really more interested in the psychological.
Speaker 6: Type of cases.
Speaker 3: So this this book is really a psychological look at
Speaker 3: this guy and his life and how did he evolve
Speaker 3: and become this person who you know, did these horrible
Speaker 3: things and what did he end up doing about it
Speaker 3: to stop?
Speaker 5: So, yes, and you did talk. They did talk about
Speaker 5: the unprecedented access. So I just wanted to know. I mean,
Speaker 5: the book is incredible and it's in its detail and
Speaker 5: covers every aspect of it. So you did have you
Speaker 5: were privy to information via that access. So tell us
Speaker 5: what specific people or players you had access to.
Speaker 6: Okay, I went up.
Speaker 3: I did not go to the entire trial because I
Speaker 3: didn't know about the case until the very end of
Speaker 3: the trial, and I learned that he had been convicted.
Speaker 3: So I thought, oh, okay, well, I'm going to go
Speaker 3: up for the death penalty trial because there's you know,
Speaker 3: in a death penalty trial, you have a guilt phase
Speaker 3: and then you have the penalty phase. Right, So I
Speaker 3: went up for the penalty phase to San Bernardino County,
Speaker 3: which is a couple hours southeast of where I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: northeast of where I live here in San Diego, And
Speaker 3: I met all the players in court that day, and
Speaker 3: I went up to them and said, you know, I'm
Speaker 3: interested in writing a book. Would you be willing to
Speaker 3: cooperate with me? And pretty much everybody in the courtroom
Speaker 3: that I talked to, you know, the attorneys on both side,
Speaker 3: and the judge, and I got to know the clerk
Speaker 3: and found out, you know that I could actually look
Speaker 3: at some of the interviews that had been done which
Speaker 3: became part of the evidence, and some of these interviews
Speaker 3: the judge would not admit, but they were still put
Speaker 3: into the evidence, so the jury weren't did not.
Speaker 6: Get to hear these things or see these things.
Speaker 3: But I got to see them, that makes sense. So
Speaker 3: there was an interview with his mother, for example, that
Speaker 3: ended up not being presented in court, which was fascinating
Speaker 3: and really telling. And there were other interviews with his
Speaker 3: family members that nobody.
Speaker 6: Had ever heard from. But I built on that.
Speaker 3: By gaining the trust of the defense investigator, who talked
Speaker 3: to the father and the brother of Wayne Adam Ford
Speaker 3: and told them they had never been interviewed by anybody
Speaker 3: other than police and by the attorneys, so they'd never
Speaker 3: talked to the media. Apparently, Dan rather approached Jane Ford,
Speaker 3: the father, and he said no. So somehow I managed
Speaker 3: to get.
Speaker 6: Access exclusive access.
Speaker 3: To family members, you know, both through my own interviews.
Speaker 3: And I spent two days with entire days in a
Speaker 3: hotel room talking with Jane Ford and Rodney Ford. So
Speaker 3: quite a lot of really interesting background information that was
Speaker 3: never revealed before.
Speaker 5: Yes, I mean you really cover the subject of this
Speaker 5: book and really get to his background and really cover
Speaker 5: both sides, who I thought was very unusual for most
Speaker 5: books where they didn't have access to that kind of information,
Speaker 5: So you gave both sides, and rather than trying to
Speaker 5: make a decision based on your own opinion, you just
Speaker 5: presented both those sides. And that gets me to this
Speaker 5: next question. The subject of your book is Wayne Adam Ford,
Speaker 5: and he goes by the name often Adam. So what
Speaker 5: was Wayne Adam Ford's childhood really?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: I want to talk to this for a second about
Speaker 3: this middle name thing, which I've sort of gathered just.
Speaker 6: You know, it ran in his family.
Speaker 3: His mother and his brother and his father all went
Speaker 3: by their middle name. But I think in Wayne Ford's case,
Speaker 3: I think he really wanted to be somebody else. He
Speaker 3: didn't like who he was, just personal opinion, and I
Speaker 3: think he wanted to use this other name, not just
Speaker 3: because his other family members did that, but I think
Speaker 3: there's been other serial killers who has done that as well,
Speaker 3: including the one that I'm just writing finishing a book
Speaker 3: up about now. He actually changed his name legally, So
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's something that many serial killers
Speaker 3: do or not, but I know at least too that
Speaker 3: I've written about who's done that. But anyway, Ford's childhood
Speaker 3: was pretty complicated.
Speaker 6: His mother.
Speaker 3: Had deep depression depending on whether you believe her, whether
Speaker 3: you believe Wayne's defense expert.
Speaker 6: Psychological expert.
Speaker 3: Two suicide attempts, one of which she did in the
Speaker 3: kitchen in front of Rodney by cutting her wrists with
Speaker 3: a can.
Speaker 6: I get that.
Speaker 3: A can lid, you know, when you open a can
Speaker 3: and you have the sharp I think that's what she used.
Speaker 3: And she denied it to him, But you know, he
Speaker 3: was eight, he could still tell.
Speaker 6: What was going on. Sure, she she saw.
Speaker 3: Things in a very different way when I you know,
Speaker 3: you may probably noticed in the first part of the book,
Speaker 3: I could not write it the way I normally did,
Speaker 3: where I could say authoritative, this is what happened. Sure,
Speaker 3: because the gene Fort had a very different version of
Speaker 3: events than she did, claimed that she was just living
Speaker 3: in this fantasy world. Anyway, she was very sexualized, she
Speaker 3: was having affairs. Her husband, Jean, who was in the
Speaker 3: criminal intelligence in the army, was a way a lot,
Speaker 3: so she was, you know, lonely and whatever else. Had
Speaker 3: an affair even with her husband's fifteen year old brother while.
Speaker 6: He was away.
Speaker 3: And you know, it's there's some theories that you know,
Speaker 3: someone in Wayne's situation growing up around that sort of situation,
Speaker 3: doesn't know what to do with the anger and all
Speaker 3: this sexuality going on in his mother, and so he
Speaker 3: ends up acting out like this. The father was a
Speaker 3: pretty dominating character, big big, very big and tall man gruff,
Speaker 3: and I think inside he was probably nicer, but he
Speaker 3: comes off pretty pretty hard on the outside. And Wayne
Speaker 3: was really scared of him. So her His father would
Speaker 3: with banks of the boys often, but more often apparently Rodney, because.
Speaker 6: Rodney was the rambunctious one.
Speaker 3: But Jeane was so scared of him that, you know,
Speaker 3: he was fighting with Rodney and the fight was broken up,
Speaker 3: and you know, he knew that when his father came
Speaker 3: home he was going to get in trouble for fighting
Speaker 3: again with his brother. So he went and hid in
Speaker 3: this car out in a field, and he was so
Speaker 3: scared of what his dad was going to do when
Speaker 3: he got home from work, he literally passed out in
Speaker 3: the car from fear. So when his father pulled him out,
Speaker 3: you know, he basically was passed out. He had to
Speaker 3: put him over his shoulder, bring him inside, and tell
Speaker 3: his brother to go get him a drink of water.
Speaker 6: So it was pretty strange.
Speaker 3: So so Ford was a very sensitive and emotional child,
Speaker 3: really took things hard and held on to his emotions
Speaker 3: and always wanted to be around his mother and was
Speaker 3: clinging to her skirts a lot, but she did not
Speaker 3: show him any affection. She even admitted to this later
Speaker 3: on and said, you know, I should have told my
Speaker 3: two boys that I loved him.
Speaker 6: I know that now, but I didn't at the time.
Speaker 3: So he, you know, wanted affection, didn't get it from
Speaker 3: his mother and was very dependent on her. She did
Speaker 3: a lot of things for him. Even his teacher mentioned
Speaker 3: this to her. You know, you shouldn't be doing so
Speaker 3: much for him, tying his shoes for him, you know,
Speaker 3: who knows what else, because he's not able to do
Speaker 3: these things or feels like he should do these things
Speaker 3: for himself. So I think a combination of probably inheriting,
Speaker 3: you know, a genetic predisposition to the mental illness. He
Speaker 3: had depression as well. At least the defense psychologists believed that,
Speaker 3: although the prosecution expert did not believe that, he also
Speaker 3: developed borderline personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder. And borderline
Speaker 3: personality disorder basically manifests itself.
Speaker 6: Such that they these people.
Speaker 3: Really take abandonment very hard. So they get very attached
Speaker 3: to people and then they see them in a very
Speaker 3: black and white terms. So they love them one minute
Speaker 3: and they hate them the next, And that pretty much
Speaker 3: bears itself out. And I'm very familiar with this personality
Speaker 3: disorder because I was married to someone who had it,
Speaker 3: and I lived with someone who suffered from this, and
Speaker 3: it's you know, they could be the sweetest minute, one
Speaker 3: sweetest one minute, and then the next minute would change
Speaker 3: and very it could be really very emotional and took things,
Speaker 3: sometimes distorted things.
Speaker 6: So anyway.
Speaker 3: Says basically disorder. My personality disorders generally thought to develop
Speaker 3: in the first five years. So I think a lot
Speaker 3: of what was going on between you know, his mother
Speaker 3: and his father, they fought a lot, they weren't getting along.
Speaker 3: The sexualization of the mother and the aggressiveness and dominating
Speaker 3: character of his father really contributed to to Wayne turning
Speaker 3: out the way he did. So genetics, you know, nature, nurture.
Speaker 3: I can't say which is really the cause. It's in
Speaker 3: an age old debate, but I think that we can see,
Speaker 3: we can see a combination of those factors in him.
Speaker 5: Yeah, certainly, I mean, certainly, certainly, there's the argument because
Speaker 5: we we get to our next question about his older brother, Rodney,
Speaker 5: and you do talk about that for all intensive purposes,
Speaker 5: at least Rodney believes, and maybe you might even believe
Speaker 5: that Rodney turned out well, but you do go to
Speaker 5: great lengths to talk about that Wayne was just seemed
Speaker 5: to be a fragile even at a young child. So
Speaker 5: let's talk about Wayne's relationship with his brother Rodney, because
Speaker 5: it is really important and very very significant later on.
Speaker 5: What was their relationship really like?
Speaker 3: Well, they were very close growing up because they were
Speaker 3: moving around a lot, and you know, there was a
Speaker 3: period where they actually were in Okinawa together and living
Speaker 3: on a military base, and you know, with a depressed
Speaker 3: mother who didn't get along with other military wives, they
Speaker 3: must have been pretty miserable in that house, especially with
Speaker 3: the fighting going on with the parents, and as I
Speaker 3: detailed in the book, you know, whether or not there
Speaker 3: was a gun in the house and whether there were threats,
Speaker 3: you know, whether she really did feel in danger or
Speaker 3: whether she was just you know, fantasizing and making this
Speaker 3: all up. It had to it sounded like a crazy place.
Speaker 3: So they even though they fought with each other and
Speaker 3: competed with each other as many brothers do. They grew
Speaker 3: close and they stayed close throughout their life. But more
Speaker 3: than that, there was a special kind of twisted relationship
Speaker 3: that they had where Wayne would do something wrong and
Speaker 3: then confess to his brother because he knew that his
Speaker 3: brother would tell on him, or that he knew his
Speaker 3: brother would do the right.
Speaker 6: Thing and make it right.
Speaker 3: So when Wayne stole some items from a sporting goods
Speaker 3: store when he was a teenager, he showed the stash
Speaker 3: to his brother in a closet because he knew his
Speaker 3: he knew his brother would do the right thing and
Speaker 3: basically turn him in essentially. And you know, Wayne had
Speaker 3: this strange, this strange fear of punishment, and yet he
Speaker 3: felt like he should be punished. So there was also
Speaker 3: an incident where he went off. Neither his mother or
Speaker 3: father ultimately could deal with him, and so he went
Speaker 3: to go live with a relative, one of his father's brothers, Jimmy,
Speaker 3: and he ran away from home and figured that he
Speaker 3: had broken the law and actually went to juvenile hall
Speaker 3: or started making his way towards juvenile hall to turn
Speaker 3: himself in because he knew he had done something wrong.
Speaker 3: I mean, and that really plays into what happened later.
Speaker 6: But so when it.
Speaker 3: Came time, you know, he couldn't feel He felt like
Speaker 3: he couldn't stop himself from killing the after killing these
Speaker 3: with Lucky landslids, you can get lucky just about.
Speaker 4: Anywhere, nearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone
Speaker 4: I've seen the bride and groom?
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the
Speaker 2: limo and we lost track of time. No Lucky Land
Speaker 2: casino with cash prizes that add up quicker than a
Speaker 2: guess registry.
Speaker 1: In luck case, I pronounce you lucky for.
Speaker 4: Free Lucky Land Slots dot com. Tigley bonuses are waiting.
Speaker 2: No purchase necessary, Boyd.
Speaker 3: We're prohibited by lock eight team plus terms and conditions applying.
Speaker 2: See website for details for.
Speaker 3: Women and you know, possibly more. We don't know the detectives.
Speaker 3: Some of the detectives on the case believe there are
Speaker 3: more victims out there, but after these four that we
Speaker 3: know about, he said he didn't He just didn't want
Speaker 3: to do this anymore, and he couldn't stop, and he
Speaker 3: was worried about killing his ex wife. So he called
Speaker 3: his brother and again said, you know, I need your help.
Speaker 3: I don't want to hurt people anymore. And Rodney didn't
Speaker 3: know what the hell was going on. Actually he didn't
Speaker 3: tell him that initially, but he got him to come,
Speaker 3: I really need you, I really need you to come
Speaker 3: down here. So Rodney drove actually up there, up into
Speaker 3: northern California, and then once they got there, he told
Speaker 3: him he wanted to turn himself in. And you know,
Speaker 3: Rodney said, okay, so, but he wanted details, and he
Speaker 3: couldn't get detailed. So but again, you know, they have
Speaker 3: that dynamic from from when they were younger and and
Speaker 3: then it you know, it's still played up until the
Speaker 3: very end.
Speaker 5: So he couldn't get any details from him. But he
Speaker 5: was convinced that there was something seriously wrong enough to
Speaker 5: him and his brother Wayne to go to the police
Speaker 5: in Humboldt County to the Shaff's office. Tell us what happens,
Speaker 5: give us. I mean, it's a fascinating story that he
Speaker 5: calls his brother and says, you know, I'm I've hurt
Speaker 5: some people something to that effect. Tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit more about that in the actual because it's very important.
Speaker 5: It's very important to the trial, it's very important to anybody,
Speaker 5: even knowing this story. At least some people were to
Speaker 5: say that, I think you even say that in the book.
Speaker 5: Other people have said that tell us give us those details.
Speaker 5: It's a fascinating count of those of those very very
Speaker 5: important events that happened in the next few days, but
Speaker 5: especially from the time he calls his brother.
Speaker 3: Okay, so he calls his brother's house, actually his brother's
Speaker 3: at work, talks to his brother's wife and he basically
Speaker 3: just says, you know, I'm and he gets Rodney to
Speaker 3: call I mean, really, I'll read you the quote. He says,
Speaker 3: I'm in some real bad trouble and I think the
Speaker 3: police are looking for me.
Speaker 6: I need your help. I need you to come get me.
Speaker 3: So it was already by the time that they finally connected.
Speaker 3: Rodney had actually quit his job that day and had
Speaker 3: already driven a really long way, commuting back and forth
Speaker 3: five hours, and he ended up having to drive yet
Speaker 3: another five hours to get to where his brother was
Speaker 3: at the Ocean Grove Lodge in the seaside town of Trinidad, California,
Speaker 3: with his Humboldt County So he drove and drove and drove.
Speaker 6: He gets there at.
Speaker 3: One in the morning, and this is off the Coastal
Speaker 3: Highway one on one for anybody who is living in
Speaker 3: northern California. And it's really beautiful area with a lot
Speaker 3: of really tall redwood, somewhere two hundred three hundred feet tall,
Speaker 3: and there's the lodge is like some cabins, and the
Speaker 3: cabin where Wayne was staying is actually called Room zero
Speaker 3: because it used to be a barber shop and something
Speaker 3: else and they ended up converting it, so it ended
Speaker 3: up becoming a new room, but they'd run out of numbers,
Speaker 3: I guess how they called it room zero. So he
Speaker 3: shows up at one in the morning and Wayne just
Speaker 3: looks like, hell, he's all ragged and frazzled booking, hasn't showered,
Speaker 3: it looks like he hasn't really slept, and he's just
Speaker 3: crying and crying, and Rodney doesn't really understand.
Speaker 6: He's like, well, what's going on? And Wayne's crying. He's like,
Speaker 6: I'm glad you're here. I really needed you to be here.
Speaker 3: I really wanted your help. But he kept going off
Speaker 3: on these jags and Rodney kept trying to understand. You know,
Speaker 3: he's basically just rambling and babbling about all kinds of
Speaker 3: things about their childhood and about you know.
Speaker 6: Why we're why was his dad so mean?
Speaker 3: And why did our mom leave us? Because they both
Speaker 3: feel that their mom abandoned them, and the mother feels
Speaker 3: that it was more the other way around.
Speaker 6: So you know, it's hard to know who to believe.
Speaker 3: But essentially they both had to get out of her house.
Speaker 6: So Peo look at it.
Speaker 3: Either way and he says, well, I love you, I
Speaker 3: care about you. I mean, I'm here and you know, Rodney,
Speaker 3: Rodney knew that Wayne, you know, was emotional, but this
Speaker 3: was even more emotional for him than he'd ever seen.
Speaker 3: And he started talking about how he missed his boy,
Speaker 3: his boy Max, who is you know, a couple.
Speaker 6: Of years old.
Speaker 3: He had been divorced and there was a custody battle,
Speaker 3: but Wayne actually really didn't fight that hard. So Elizabeth
Speaker 3: the wife, kept the kid and Wayne was only allowed
Speaker 3: to see him every once in a while. But he
Speaker 3: really didn't even try that hard. But in his own mind,
Speaker 3: he felt like he wasn't being allowed to see his son,
Speaker 3: so he was complaining about that and he says, I
Speaker 3: miss my boy. I can't see my boy. And if
Speaker 3: you talk to you know, the wife, the wife doesn't
Speaker 3: see it that way. It's like, well, why doesn't he
Speaker 3: ever try to come and see him, you know anyway?
Speaker 3: And then he says, I hurt some people. I don't
Speaker 3: want to hurt anybody anymore. Rodney says, you hurt some
Speaker 3: people and he says yeah. So Rodney's thinking, well, what
Speaker 3: do you mean you got in a bar fight or
Speaker 3: did you break someone's arm? And but Wayne wouldn't give
Speaker 3: him any details. So he says, I'm here to help.
Speaker 3: I want to help you, and Wayne says, well, I
Speaker 3: want to go to the sheriff. I want to turn
Speaker 3: myself in. So, you know, Rodney didn't know. He was
Speaker 3: so tired at that point. He just felt like, well,
Speaker 3: something is weird, but let's just deal with it in
Speaker 3: the morning.
Speaker 6: So they get up.
Speaker 3: In the morning, Wayne goes and take you know, gets
Speaker 3: a shower, finally cleans up, seems more like himself. He's
Speaker 3: in a pretty good mood. He's like, well, you know,
Speaker 3: let's go to denny. So they go to Denny's and
Speaker 3: he still doesn't want to talk about this.
Speaker 6: So Rodney's trying to bring it up. You know, who
Speaker 6: did you hurt? What what are you talking about?
Speaker 3: Wayne does Wenn says, you know, I don't want to
Speaker 3: talk about that right now, but I just want to
Speaker 3: spend the day with you. He wants to go through
Speaker 3: memory lane, so they want to. He wants to go
Speaker 3: see the places where they grew up, where they used.
Speaker 6: To hang out, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: And again, he's still doing fine one minute, doing the crying.
Speaker 6: Jag the next minute.
Speaker 3: Yes, so he's his moods hunting up and down.
Speaker 6: And Ronnie tries again. He's like, how did you hurt
Speaker 6: some people?
Speaker 3: He says, well, if I tell you won't love me,
Speaker 3: you'll hate me. And Ronnie says, well, I love you,
Speaker 3: I'm your brother, and he says, well, I hurt some
Speaker 3: people bad and they don't have to worry about anything anymore.
Speaker 3: So now that suddenly sounds really ominous. So Ronie hurts
Speaker 3: getting really worried. Now he's not only worried what Wayne
Speaker 3: has done, but now he's worried that Wayne has dragged
Speaker 3: him into something that is going to get him.
Speaker 6: In trouble too.
Speaker 3: Okay, so he's trying to figure out what to do next.
Speaker 3: They go to see a movie and ro it's getting
Speaker 3: late in the day and Ronnie's like, you know, let's
Speaker 3: just go.
Speaker 6: Let's just go to the sheriff's office.
Speaker 3: So on the way there, Wayne decides he doesn't want
Speaker 3: to go anymore. So that's probably why he called his brother,
Speaker 3: because it's hard to turn yourself in. You know, you're
Speaker 3: going to be put away for.
Speaker 6: The rest of your life.
Speaker 3: I have to say that's got to be hard for anybody.
Speaker 3: But anyway, Rodney's like, well, no, we've come this part.
Speaker 3: We're going so anyway, I'm going to leave some of
Speaker 3: this stuffut because we don't need to go into every
Speaker 3: single detail. But they get to the sheriff's office and
Speaker 3: Rodney goes to the woman behind the glass that's the
Speaker 3: reception center and basically says, my brother wants to turn
Speaker 3: himself in. You know, he's hurt people. He doesn't want
Speaker 3: to hurt anyone anymore. She's just like, what's what you know,
Speaker 3: what's that about? Looks on the computer, he has no
Speaker 3: criminal record, wants to talk to Wayne. Wayne says the
Speaker 3: same thing, and so they're kind of confused because you know,
Speaker 3: he's not given anybody any details.
Speaker 6: So one of the.
Speaker 3: Officers comes out, and then a sergeant comes out, and
Speaker 3: you know, there's a couple of different versions of what
Speaker 3: happened next. Rodney has one version and the the sheriffs
Speaker 3: have another version. But one way or another, either either
Speaker 3: Wayne or the Sheriff's deputies pulled this baggie out of
Speaker 3: Wayne's jacket pocket and pulled it out and it's kind
Speaker 3: of leaking and it looks like a piece of raw chicken.
Speaker 3: And he turns it over and it's got a nipple
Speaker 3: on it, and they suddenly realize what they're holding, and
Speaker 3: they just basically are like.
Speaker 6: You know, wow, this is awful, and.
Speaker 3: So you know, he wants to turn himself in, so
Speaker 3: they're going to take him back, and they arrest him
Speaker 3: on aggravated mayhem essentially, which is the involuntary removal of
Speaker 3: a body part, right and anyway, then he gets taken
Speaker 3: off and taken back until they're waiting for the homicide
Speaker 3: detective to come in so that he can start questioning him.
Speaker 3: That's pretty much what happened in the lobby.
Speaker 5: Amazing. Now, what just for people that might be curious,
Speaker 5: and I would be if I was listening to this
Speaker 5: story so far, has there been a body found with
Speaker 5: its breast cut off? Is there a serial killer.
Speaker 3: That's kind of confusing, I think for them at first,
Speaker 3: because there was a case about a year earlier that
Speaker 3: this detective that they called in from home to come.
Speaker 3: They said, hey, you know, this might be a lead
Speaker 3: on your torso case, because they had found a torso.
Speaker 3: Not they, but of some boaters had found a torso
Speaker 3: in an area called Ryan Flew, which is a tributary
Speaker 3: on the way to the ocean, and the breasts were
Speaker 3: cut off, but you could still tell, you know, that
Speaker 3: it was a woman's torso. And then about I don't
Speaker 3: remember the exact timeline now, but actually I did write
Speaker 3: it down. Here we go two months three months later
Speaker 3: on the beach, an arm was found and they did
Speaker 3: a DNA test and found that it was the same person.
Speaker 3: So we don't have a head, and we don't have
Speaker 3: any we have a torso and we have an arm.
Speaker 3: So clearly this body has been cut up in there,
Speaker 3: you know, being found in different places. But so this
Speaker 3: detective has been basically looking for the past year for
Speaker 3: you know, contacting other authorities all over the country, looking
Speaker 3: for missing people who would fit some sort of distinct
Speaker 3: sort of tell I think the basic age of this girl, right,
Speaker 3: And so they they called this detective to come in
Speaker 3: and he started asking him about these things. So he
Speaker 3: kind of had a feeling that this breast might be
Speaker 3: from that victim, but it turned out not to be.
Speaker 5: Now, the thing is, when they went into the courthouse
Speaker 5: or pardon me, the sheriff's office, it later becomes an
Speaker 5: issue because obviously there's an issue of miranda rights, which
Speaker 5: is basically, if people want to know it's does the
Speaker 5: client or the defendant basically ask for a lawyer and
Speaker 5: then all of the normal questioning of that defendant of
Speaker 5: this accused would end. So they really wouldn't be able
Speaker 5: to interview him about almost anything at all because a
Speaker 5: lawyer would rightly that that person should say nothing. So
Speaker 5: tell us, really what the bone of contention was without
Speaker 5: going into the trial, but tell us what you know
Speaker 5: you have found. I mean, there was always It's very
Speaker 5: complicated and.
Speaker 3: I could probably talk about an hour on this, so
Speaker 3: I'll try to keep it short.
Speaker 6: But Okay, basically he did ask for a lawyer. Okay,
Speaker 6: he's in the lobby. He asked for a lawyer.
Speaker 3: During the interview with Van Freeman, he asked for a lawyer.
Speaker 3: So the detective basically said, you know, are you sure
Speaker 3: and he said yeah, So they have to stop the interview,
Speaker 3: right So anyway, the detective went to Rodney, who was
Speaker 3: still waiting in the station to find out, you know,
Speaker 3: what's going on and talk to Rodney. And I had
Speaker 3: the transcript which I put in the book, but essentially
Speaker 3: he said, you know, we're not going to be able
Speaker 3: to help these families get closure. We were not going
Speaker 3: to be able to know if there's any victims, you know,
Speaker 3: who are in danger right now that he might have
Speaker 3: taken him put somewhere. And these are some of the
Speaker 3: things going through Rodney's head also, and there's this weird conversation,
Speaker 3: so so Wan basically asks Rodney Wan Freeman's the detective
Speaker 3: asks Rodney to talk to Wayne and say, you know,
Speaker 3: would you, you know, can you talk without a lawyer
Speaker 3: to help the police, you know, and help these families.
Speaker 3: So there's this weird I have this transcript where Rodney
Speaker 3: and Wayne are having this conversation and it's like it
Speaker 3: doesn't really make a lot of sense, but apparently they
Speaker 3: seem to understand each other. It's kind of they're talking
Speaker 3: back and forth in these very short, clipped, partial sentences,
Speaker 3: and I don't know whether Rodney and Wayne were actually communicating,
Speaker 3: or maybe Wayne's didn't understand what Wayne Rodney was saying.
Speaker 3: But since Rodney didn't know the whole story, you know,
Speaker 3: he's trying to advise Wayne to.
Speaker 6: Do the right thing and see.
Speaker 3: What God would want you to do, and this and that.
Speaker 3: But I know from talking to Rodney that he did
Speaker 3: want Wayne to be protected, you know, under the law.
Speaker 3: So I don't really know exactly, but the bottom line
Speaker 3: is Wayne, from that conversation, thought that Rodney was telling
Speaker 3: him to talk without a lawyer, so he did. But
Speaker 3: Wayne had the idea that he was going to get
Speaker 3: a lawyer, so he was clearly confused. And the defense
Speaker 3: argued that that, you know, he thought he was going
Speaker 3: to be getting an attorney. So but however, the fact
Speaker 3: that he had asked for an attorney at first, and
Speaker 3: they had stopped the interview when he had asked for
Speaker 3: an attorney again, right, he then started walking without an attorney.
Speaker 3: He agreed to talk without an attorney, and he continued
Speaker 3: to talk for the next few days and so over
Speaker 3: the years they wrangled over this in court. Because you know,
Speaker 3: you can see if you see the booking video, he's crying,
Speaker 3: he's upset, he's not he's clearly.
Speaker 6: Not in a rational state.
Speaker 3: And right, you know, I I and the defense when
Speaker 3: they had these here, you know, they called the psychologist
Speaker 3: who said, look, he's clearly confused. He doesn't seem to
Speaker 3: understand what's going on. And later on, you know, when
Speaker 3: he kept saying, where's my attorney, where's my attorney, it's
Speaker 3: clear that he thought one was coming, that he was
Speaker 3: going to tell them some things, but he was still
Speaker 3: going to get help and be protected and get an attorney.
Speaker 6: So he didn't.
Speaker 3: He clearly did not understand what was going on, because
Speaker 3: otherwise he wouldn't keep asking for the attorney. And so eventually,
Speaker 3: when this got to the judge at the end, they
Speaker 3: did end up throwing out some of the interviews towards
Speaker 3: the end where he kept asking for the attorney, because
Speaker 3: it was clear that he was confused. However, the early
Speaker 3: ones where he talked with detectives from these various counties
Speaker 3: where these victims were from, they left those in. So
Speaker 3: there are some people who've heard this story and read
Speaker 3: this book who think that that was not fair, you know,
Speaker 3: And there are some people who say, well, you know,
Speaker 3: what he waived is right. He kept talking and it
Speaker 3: does seem that he does want to help the authorities.
Speaker 6: So that's the thing.
Speaker 3: It's hard to tell how much he did he understand,
Speaker 3: how much did he really want to confess, And you know,
Speaker 3: it's just hard to tell, and I can't really make
Speaker 3: a judgment on that, but it is clear that he's confused.
Speaker 5: So what I was surprised with, and maybe you can
Speaker 5: tell me, did the defense is it permissible what the
Speaker 5: police did in their conversation with Rodney Ford and then
Speaker 5: getting Rodney Ford to talk to the brother you say,
Speaker 5: there was some talk and they did talk about the
Speaker 5: vulnerability or the mental state unstable mental state while they
Speaker 5: were questioning him. Not too much avail obviously, but I
Speaker 5: thought it would be interesting. Is it permissible what they
Speaker 5: really did?
Speaker 3: It's been adjudicated in court, and they had a number
Speaker 3: of hearings on this, I'm sure over the years. I mean,
Speaker 3: I know they did.
Speaker 6: But here's something that I thought was really.
Speaker 3: I'll use the word curious. The defense attorney, one of
Speaker 3: the public defenders up in Humboldt County actually tried to
Speaker 3: go did go to the jail to see Wayne, so
Speaker 3: that he, you know, and they wouldn't let him in
Speaker 3: the And I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: How why this Lucky Land casino asking people, what's the
Speaker 2: weirdest place you've gotten lucky? Lucky? In line at the
Speaker 2: Delhi I guess ah, in my dentist's office more than months.
Speaker 4: Actually, do I have to say? Yes?
Speaker 1: You do?
Speaker 4: In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?
Speaker 2: Really?
Speaker 1: Yes? Excuse me?
Speaker 2: What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 3: I never win in tel?
Speaker 4: Well, there you have it.
Speaker 2: You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot
Speaker 2: com play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky?
Speaker 4: No, we're just necessary foid.
Speaker 2: We do my low eighteen plus terms. Conditions of Plucke
Speaker 2: went avery.
Speaker 3: Details didn't ever go anywhere, but he claims that he
Speaker 3: went to the jail and said I'm here to see
Speaker 3: Wayne and they said he's not available.
Speaker 6: So I don't understand.
Speaker 3: How that was allowed, frankly, because you know, apparently he
Speaker 3: was being interrogated, that's why he was available. Sure, so
Speaker 3: this guy ended up you know, I think it was,
Speaker 3: you know, a weekend or something, and he wasn't able
Speaker 3: to get to a judge in time.
Speaker 6: But by the time he did get.
Speaker 3: To see you know, his client, it was too late.
Speaker 3: He'd already you know, given several days of these confessions. Sure,
Speaker 3: so I don't understand why that didn't get anywhere in court,
Speaker 3: but they did adjudicate this, and like I said, the
Speaker 3: judge did end up throwing some of them out, but
Speaker 3: not the early ones.
Speaker 5: So right there, you now you talked about the confession
Speaker 5: per se. What exactly did the police get from him? Obviously,
Speaker 5: the they had a breast, they had this body that
Speaker 5: they were trying to link to him, but they got
Speaker 5: much more detail from way out. Adam Ford eventually tell
Speaker 5: us what they did get from him. Eventually, it's actually.
Speaker 3: Almost easier to tell you what they didn't get. But okay,
Speaker 3: what they didn't get was exactly how he killed them,
Speaker 3: because he wouldn't admit to that, But you got to
Speaker 3: everything else. So he said, I picked up this woman,
Speaker 3: you know, at this place. Here's what she was wearing,
Speaker 3: Here's what I did. You know, Basically, it was a
Speaker 3: pretty common things, you know, set of of activities, if
Speaker 3: you want to call it, that he generally picked up prostitutes.
Speaker 3: Not all of these women were prostitutes, but most of
Speaker 3: them were. One of them, who was not ever arrested
Speaker 3: for prostitution was certainly seemed to be moving in that direction,
Speaker 3: although they didn't categorize her that way. She was letting men,
Speaker 3: you know, touch her breasts for money, and so, you know, right,
Speaker 3: it seemed to be going in that direction anyway. But
Speaker 3: she basically he basically would pick up women, whether they
Speaker 3: were prostitutes or just vulnerable women who were on drugs
Speaker 3: or drinking, but vulnerable, and get them in his truck
Speaker 3: and you know, ask them, you know, do you date
Speaker 3: or you know how much to charge or whatever. So
Speaker 3: they would you tell them how much they charged, or
Speaker 3: maybe they just wanted to ride. I'm not the first
Speaker 3: victim that they never identified. He didn't say she was
Speaker 3: a prostitute, so she I think she was just a
Speaker 3: trouble soul, wandering, probably hitchhiking. So he would put hitchhikers
Speaker 3: to women. He would get a rope or a tie,
Speaker 3: a man's dress tie and choke them with it and
Speaker 3: make them pass out. Now, I don't know if any
Speaker 3: of these women or some of these women agreed to
Speaker 3: this or not, but the one who survived and testified
Speaker 3: claims she did not.
Speaker 6: Agree to that type of activity.
Speaker 3: Things weren't going well, he would start doing things to them,
Speaker 3: torturing them. He burned their genitals with a cigarette lighter,
Speaker 3: nasty stuff, hit them with a belt buckle down there.
Speaker 3: And yet later, you know, when when he was in
Speaker 3: these quote unquote confessions, he would leave some of that
Speaker 3: nasty stuff out. So he would tell them, yes, we
Speaker 3: were having sex, but it was consensual. You know, I
Speaker 3: was strangling He didn't say strangle them. I was cutting
Speaker 3: off their you know, basically their air and their crowded
Speaker 3: ugery because they had a more intense orgasm that way,
Speaker 3: and so this was for their pleasure. So, you know,
Speaker 3: it's unclear was he lying, Did he really believe this?
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, but clearly it's an aggrant behavior.
Speaker 3: He's hurting them, he's causing them to pass out, he's
Speaker 3: bringing them back with CPR three or four times, and
Speaker 3: they're you know, frightened out of their minds and crying
Speaker 3: and scared obviously, and so he won't say exactly that
Speaker 3: he killed them, but he just says, well, I couldn't
Speaker 3: bring them back or she stopped breathing, and I, you know,
Speaker 3: I tried to give her CPR, but she couldn't break
Speaker 3: her back. And that's kind of how that's his confession.
Speaker 3: So but he claimed essentially that it was an accident.
Speaker 3: You know, this was sex they were having. He paid them,
Speaker 3: and you know this was for their pleasure, and then.
Speaker 6: You know, I tried to bring them back but I
Speaker 6: just couldn't.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I had the sorry, he had the convenient amnesia
Speaker 5: just for the for the specific details of the actual
Speaker 5: murder and the like you say, the torture, right.
Speaker 3: And his attorneys claimed that he couldn't remember it, And
Speaker 3: of course the prosecutor was saying, well, of course he
Speaker 3: remembered it, but he didn't want to admit that he
Speaker 3: remembered it. So it's unclear did he remember did he
Speaker 3: not remembered? I don't know, but he didn't admit to
Speaker 3: remembering it.
Speaker 5: So now was there you you talk about a well
Speaker 5: known FBI Behavioral Science Unit criminal profiler named park Deats.
Speaker 5: Was he consulted in this case? Was the FBI consulted
Speaker 5: in this case for what they could find out about
Speaker 5: the serial killer profile and the behavior of serial killers?
Speaker 6: You know that I don't.
Speaker 3: I think they were The FBI was brought in I believe,
Speaker 3: or at least they were consulted early on. And I've
Speaker 3: written three books since since I wrote this, and I
Speaker 3: can't remember every single detail, but I do seem to
Speaker 3: remember that they were consulted about on that Courso case
Speaker 3: before they before uh Wayne was arrested. I don't believe
Speaker 3: they were consulted after he was arrested.
Speaker 6: That's my memory serves. So.
Speaker 3: So park Deep was consult you know, consulted by the prosecution,
Speaker 3: and since this took such a long time to get
Speaker 3: to court, they ended up paying him quite a bit
Speaker 3: of money over.
Speaker 6: The years.
Speaker 3: To get ready for trial. So, and he doesn't actually
Speaker 3: work for the FBI. He is a consultant and he's
Speaker 3: a one of those guys that goes around and testify
Speaker 3: that try and he actually also testified in the in
Speaker 3: the trial of the serial killer that I ended up
Speaker 3: writing about that I'm still finishing a book on now
Speaker 3: that she's coming out next year called Dead Reckoning.
Speaker 5: Oh great, And when's that open again? Did you say
Speaker 5: it's coming out.
Speaker 6: Of February twenty eleven, same publisher.
Speaker 3: But anyway, he was also brought in on that case
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 6: So this is something that he does on a regular
Speaker 6: that's what he us for living.
Speaker 5: You know, right now, you said that Wayne Ford was
Speaker 5: seen by psychologists, and obviously at the trial there was
Speaker 5: the defense is one of the only things they can
Speaker 5: use in the defense would be his mental state. And
Speaker 5: tell us a little bit about that. When the psychologists
Speaker 5: did see Wayne adam Ford, what was their diagnosis?
Speaker 3: Well, okay, so it's it's hard to say how many
Speaker 3: psychologists he was seen by, but it was, it was
Speaker 3: it was a number of them. He was represented by
Speaker 3: a different attorney than the one who actually saw him
Speaker 3: through trial. So it started off in Hobolk County with
Speaker 3: that public defender that I mentioned to tried to go
Speaker 3: see him in the jail. They actually were moving in
Speaker 3: a different direction for a different defense, which was more
Speaker 3: of an adult brain defense, that there was something structurally wrong,
Speaker 3: you know, admimalities in his brain. Right, so they had
Speaker 3: and I don't know a lot about that because I
Speaker 3: wasn't able to get that information, but I do know
Speaker 3: that they he was seen by other psychologists.
Speaker 6: Then he got.
Speaker 3: New attorneys when they brought the case down to San
Speaker 3: Bernardino and consolidated all four of these murders, into you know,
Speaker 3: from different counties. There were two from San Bernardino County,
Speaker 3: one from Kern County, one from San Joaquin County where
Speaker 3: these bodies were found and where the victims were from.
Speaker 3: They ended up consolidating the prosecution under a new law
Speaker 3: called the Reigny law in San Bernardino County. So he
Speaker 3: was then set down and he got a new public
Speaker 3: defender who then did had him see some new psychologists.
Speaker 3: So I'm going to tell you what the what that one,
Speaker 3: doctor Reid.
Speaker 6: Malloy, what he found.
Speaker 3: Sure, it's pretty complicated, but there's a lot of stuff here.
Speaker 3: He found that he, you know, has had depression, that
Speaker 3: he had that he was an alcoholic except and that
Speaker 3: he was you know, using you know.
Speaker 6: Beer to escape essentially.
Speaker 3: He was that he had an anti social and borderline
Speaker 3: personality disorder with impulsive and explosive features. That he was
Speaker 3: a sexual uh sadist and a masochist. Uh and I
Speaker 3: had a number of what we call paraphilias, which sexual
Speaker 3: sadism and masochism fits under. But periphilia is such as pikerism,
Speaker 3: which is poking body parts with that needle.
Speaker 6: Which in his case was the breast. He was fixt
Speaker 6: stated on the breast.
Speaker 3: Also, which was I think it's called I'm trying to
Speaker 3: find the PA sure because I.
Speaker 6: Have them all listed.
Speaker 3: Partialism, I believe, where you focused on one body part. Yeah, partialism.
Speaker 3: I was an intense focus on one.
Speaker 6: Body part for sexual arousal.
Speaker 3: And then isolated incidents of pseudo necrophilias or sex with
Speaker 3: a corpse, so you know, pretty some pretty gross stuff. Also,
Speaker 3: periods of acute psychosis when he was in the military.
Speaker 3: He decompensated a couple times. They had to use restraints
Speaker 3: and give him held all and he was just going nuts,
Speaker 3: I mean, just really aggressive. And they actually put in
Speaker 3: his medical records, which I also.
Speaker 6: Was able to get.
Speaker 3: Those were that was another set of documents that I
Speaker 3: was able to get from the evidence of his marine
Speaker 3: medical records because he was in the Marine Corps that
Speaker 3: he had actual've been described as catatonic, so so periods
Speaker 3: of acute psychosis where he would just kind of disintegrate.
Speaker 3: And then they also did some brain scans and found
Speaker 3: some brain abnormalities with some atrophy and the cerebellum which
Speaker 3: is the part of the brain that does coordination and
Speaker 3: that sort of thing, and that that his brain was
Speaker 3: kind of if you have to use a metaphor, kind
Speaker 3: of running on fewer cylinders than it's supposed to. Now,
Speaker 3: this could be a genetic this could be from the alcohol.
Speaker 3: They just they just weren't sure, but there was definitely
Speaker 3: something structurally wrong with his brain. And in addition to that,
Speaker 3: he was in this severe accident, I guess you could
Speaker 3: call it. He was on the freeway with his then
Speaker 3: girlfriend who became his wife, and they saw a car
Speaker 3: accident on the side of the road on the freeway
Speaker 3: and he said, you know, after being in the Marines,
Speaker 3: he had had learned to be and learned some other
Speaker 3: first aid techniques, and curiously, he was taught essentially about
Speaker 3: the you know, crodd argory.
Speaker 6: He's in the various parts of.
Speaker 3: The neck where he so all this information he later
Speaker 3: used to kill people.
Speaker 6: At this point, he actually used the same knowledge.
Speaker 3: To try to save somebody. So there was somebody the
Speaker 3: passenger in this car accident was bleeding profusely from the neck.
Speaker 3: So he's actually holding this artery and he later used
Speaker 3: to kill these women. He's holding this guy his neck
Speaker 3: to stop it from bleeding to death. When a drunk
Speaker 3: driver comes and hit them and knocks them forty feet
Speaker 3: down an embankment, so half his jaw and his face
Speaker 3: were kind of torn off, severe head injury.
Speaker 6: He also had a head injury.
Speaker 3: When he was a little boy. So anyway, clearly some
Speaker 3: head trauma. And you know they've they've done studies and
Speaker 3: found it.
Speaker 6: Many of the people on.
Speaker 3: Death row have had serious head trauma, so it can
Speaker 3: change you. So all those things were found either you know,
Speaker 3: mental or emotional problems or structural problems in Wayne's brain.
Speaker 5: So despite all this well documented evidence of mental illness,
Speaker 5: how did it fare at the trial? What happened at
Speaker 5: the trial? In the end, we.
Speaker 3: Basically, and this is pretty common for, you know, for
Speaker 3: a defense of prosecution to.
Speaker 6: Take these sides.
Speaker 3: Essentially, what it breaks down to is the defense says,
Speaker 3: he didn't have a choice. You know, he had these
Speaker 3: these problems, you know, part some of the most genetic, environmental,
Speaker 3: structural problems, and the prosecution says, no, he did have
Speaker 3: a choice, even though you know, his they were brought
Speaker 3: up in the same home. You know, his brother didn't
Speaker 3: end up killing anybody.
Speaker 6: He was fine.
Speaker 3: The depression that was in the military documented in the
Speaker 3: military records Seets was saying, well, I think he could
Speaker 3: have been faking some of those symptoms and basically that
Speaker 3: prompted a false diagnosis of psychosis. Yes, he was a
Speaker 3: sexual statist, but just because he has these urgentes doesn't
Speaker 3: mean he has to satisfy them by hurting anybody. He
Speaker 3: could have fantasized or stimulated these acts with a consenting partner,
Speaker 3: so he did have a choice. He didn't have to
Speaker 3: do this. And you know he was seeking out people
Speaker 3: to kill.
Speaker 6: Now, the main.
Speaker 3: Point of contention was that the defense expert psychologists said,
Speaker 3: you know, he wasn't looking for people to kill. He
Speaker 3: was looking for people to have these aberrant sexual activities
Speaker 3: with and in the process they ended up dying, whereas
Speaker 3: the prosecution expert was saying he was a predator going
Speaker 3: out looking for these people to kill. Hill or even
Speaker 3: short of that, if he knows after you know, the
Speaker 3: first time or the second time, that these people women
Speaker 3: are dying, when he's giving them CPR and they don't
Speaker 3: come back, he has to know the ramifications of his actions.
Speaker 6: Why does he keep doing it?
Speaker 3: He clearly knew the consequences of his act.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's clear that even though he exhibits all
Speaker 5: kinds of things that people would consider insane by the
Speaker 5: strict definition by law. Because he covers up elements of
Speaker 5: his crime and evades capture, then he is technically not insane.
Speaker 6: Well he and they didn't even they didn't actually try
Speaker 6: for an insanity defense.
Speaker 3: They just said, try to put yourself in his brain.
Speaker 3: You know, it doesn't work properly. He isn't seeing things right.
Speaker 3: Think about if you went.
Speaker 6: To a party and drank a whole lot.
Speaker 3: And tried to make decisions. You know that his brain
Speaker 3: is not working properly, so his decision making, you know,
Speaker 3: he's distorting things, seeing things that.
Speaker 6: Are his perceptions are off.
Speaker 3: You know, he's got these borderline personality disorder and he
Speaker 3: just twists things in his own mind. He's paranoid, he
Speaker 3: feels you know, he's very defense dependent on these women,
Speaker 3: and he loves them one minute and you know, detaches
Speaker 3: from them the next, and this.
Speaker 6: Is all part of his.
Speaker 3: Psychosis and psychopathy, you know. So yeah, I mean there's
Speaker 3: definitely he could argue both ways, but you know, the
Speaker 3: prosecution always argues, no, he had a choice.
Speaker 6: So that's pretty much the deal.
Speaker 5: Now the trial, it's the the complexion of the trial
Speaker 5: changes just because there is a death penalty available. So
Speaker 5: so basically the lawyers have to go and defend against
Speaker 5: that inevitability rather than anything anything else. There is no
Speaker 5: ability to have much of a plea bargain. But this
Speaker 5: is a this is a death penalty case. Tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit more about what happened at that death
Speaker 5: penalty case and what was the result. And I know
Speaker 5: that you talk a little bit about that it took
Speaker 5: a considerable time to get the trial. Seven years is
Speaker 5: quite a quite a length of time to get the trial.
Speaker 3: I thought that was wrangling over these confessions and whether
Speaker 3: they should be offended or not, and all kinds of
Speaker 3: other things. Basically, you know, the trial went on for months,
Speaker 3: and part of the reason it went on for so
Speaker 3: long is because the defense kept trying to put on
Speaker 3: family members and various other people, and then you know,
Speaker 3: the judge kept saying no, so it kind of just
Speaker 3: delayed things longer than it might have otherwise. But by
Speaker 3: the time they you know, so they found him guilty.
Speaker 3: And then what they do in the death penalty portion
Speaker 3: is they the jury is asked to weigh mitigating circumstances
Speaker 3: against aggravating circumstances. The mitigating circumstances would be, well, he
Speaker 3: turned himself in, he had this head injury, he had
Speaker 3: these issues when he was growing up. One thing I
Speaker 3: do want to mention, which I think.
Speaker 6: Is a really big contributor.
Speaker 3: I don't know exactly when this happened, but his mother
Speaker 3: basically told him that he was a product of rape,
Speaker 3: so that his own father had raped his mother to
Speaker 3: produce him. Oh, that's right, and I think that that's
Speaker 3: that's a pretty important fact as well. So you know,
Speaker 3: that gets all that gets considered by the jury.
Speaker 6: But this jury did not.
Speaker 3: Did not take into well they took into account, but
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that they were not persuaded or convinced
Speaker 3: that they should show him, you know, any less punishment
Speaker 3: because he actually, even though he turned himself in and
Speaker 3: tried to help authorities identify his victims and showed them
Speaker 3: on maps where he picked up the boy, you know,
Speaker 3: the women, and where he'd put their bodies and confess
Speaker 3: to all that and helped them identify these people and
Speaker 3: get their families closure, the jury was not convinced about that.
Speaker 3: And I've talked to some people leaders who actually feel that,
Speaker 3: you know, that's a shame that, you know, why do
Speaker 3: we have a system like this where there's a positive
Speaker 3: Why turn yourself in then, you know, and try to
Speaker 3: help people if you're not going to get anything for it.
Speaker 3: But this particular jury, they're in a very conservative county
Speaker 3: and that they weren't swayed by that, so and it
Speaker 3: didn't take that long for them to come around to
Speaker 3: their decision, so I think, and basically what the judge
Speaker 3: said when he confirmed their findings at the sentence thing is,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe the first one was an accident, maybe
Speaker 3: even the second one was an accident, but by the
Speaker 3: time you get to the third and the fourth time
Speaker 3: that you're bringing these women back with DPR and they
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 6: They don't come back.
Speaker 3: You know what you're doing, so you know, nobody's buying
Speaker 3: this accident defense anymore.
Speaker 5: Here there were, if I'm not incorrect, a couple of
Speaker 5: women that almost were killed by Wayne Ford. And in
Speaker 5: your book you talk about when these people came forward.
Speaker 5: Can you tell us a little bit about that or
Speaker 5: at least one of the victims and what she had
Speaker 5: to say.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Rachel Holt, who I actually got permission from directly
Speaker 3: to use her name, because you know, generally we don't
Speaker 3: as journalists, don't identify names of rape victims if certainly
Speaker 3: they don't want that.
Speaker 6: But she agreed to let me use her.
Speaker 3: Picture and identify her in the book. But she was
Speaker 3: a prostitute and to this days, to my knowledge, is
Speaker 3: still working as a prostitute. And she got picked up
Speaker 3: by him and like I said, you know, got tied
Speaker 3: up and he hit her with the belt buckle.
Speaker 6: That's how we know this in the genitals while he
Speaker 6: was driving.
Speaker 3: Kept telling her to shut up, but she was crying.
Speaker 3: And anyway, she when he let her go, though, he
Speaker 3: let her out of the truck and tied her actually loosely,
Speaker 3: so she was able as soon as the.
Speaker 6: Truck drove away.
Speaker 3: He tied her up so that it would take her
Speaker 3: a while to get loose, so that she couldn't you know,
Speaker 3: report him or whatever. While she did, she got loose,
Speaker 3: and she crawled up the ravine and you know, had
Speaker 3: someone pick her up and she went and she you know,
Speaker 3: called and reported it and she was you know, take
Speaker 3: it to a hospital so they could do a rape
Speaker 3: kid and look at her injuries. And she was still
Speaker 3: really upset, and she ultimately Drew did a sketch for
Speaker 3: the sketch artist, and then after Wayne turned himself in,
Speaker 3: she identified him from a photo lineup.
Speaker 6: There was another prostitute who he picked up and.
Speaker 3: Did some similar things to down in Orange County, which
Speaker 3: is the other end.
Speaker 6: Of the state.
Speaker 3: So he's a truckery just driving up and down. She
Speaker 3: was not ultimately able to testify at trial, even though
Speaker 3: she had a similar story, because she was too strung
Speaker 3: out on meth and she just wasn't a good witness.
Speaker 3: So those two, you know, they both reported it, and
Speaker 3: they were both telling similar stories.
Speaker 5: So so Rachel holds testimony with signifying some of the
Speaker 5: well inevitable signatures of this serial killer right exactly. That
Speaker 5: must have been important to the trial itself.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the defense actually though, was pretty brutal to her.
Speaker 3: She told me that it was the most horrible experience,
Speaker 3: you know, because basically she she gets raped, and that
Speaker 3: she gets on on the stand, and the defenses, you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: especially emotionally raping her again by making her you know,
Speaker 3: calling her a liar and taking her through a bunch
Speaker 3: of other you know, more minor infractions, you know, lying
Speaker 3: to the police about this or that, and so why
Speaker 3: isn't she lying now?
Speaker 6: And you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: But the thing is that her story was pretty consistent
Speaker 3: with the injuries of these that were found on the
Speaker 3: bodies of these other victims. So in the end, you know,
Speaker 3: the jury believed her.
Speaker 5: I think, did she did you have any impression or
Speaker 5: did you find out as evidence that she thought it
Speaker 5: was an a favorable experience overall favorable?
Speaker 6: What do you mean?
Speaker 5: Well, I mean it was worthwhile for her to do
Speaker 5: this despite all.
Speaker 6: The horrible being on trial.
Speaker 3: And you know, the only other way that I you know,
Speaker 3: I talked to her and I just said, you know,
Speaker 3: you were really important in this trial in helping getting
Speaker 3: get him convicted, so you know, I'd really like to
Speaker 3: use your your story in here.
Speaker 6: And so she agreed.
Speaker 3: So but she she she claimed, you know, it really
Speaker 3: wasn't that bad. It was actually worse to be on trial,
Speaker 3: because she said she had put it behind her and
Speaker 3: she had moved on, but that it was more it
Speaker 3: was actually almost worse to be on trial than it
Speaker 3: was to be raped, which I don't.
Speaker 6: Personally believe, but.
Speaker 5: Well, certainly, sometimes what I found is from my personal
Speaker 5: experience and from just looking at these stories for a
Speaker 5: few years is at the media is not very fair
Speaker 5: to a person that's brave enough to come forward, especially
Speaker 5: like a woman in this kind of case has been raped,
Speaker 5: to come forward, They're they're risking a certain amount of
Speaker 5: the inevitable cross examination. The media adds insult injuries, sometimes
Speaker 5: by taking too much of what the defense has to
Speaker 5: say as gospel.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you know, well, I basically just used
Speaker 3: the court transcript, and you know, I just told the
Speaker 3: story of what happened in court.
Speaker 6: So I don't make any judgment. I just put it
Speaker 6: out there, you know, what she claimed happened.
Speaker 5: So right, So where is where is Wayne Ford? Right now?
Speaker 5: He's awaiting.
Speaker 3: He is on death row at San Quentin Prison in
Speaker 3: northern California, and he's something like I don't know, number
Speaker 3: six hundred.
Speaker 6: And eighty in line, and.
Speaker 3: You know, there's I think seven hundred in it's on
Speaker 3: death row and nobody's been executed in California since two
Speaker 3: thousand and six, so it's it's pretty likely unless they
Speaker 3: start doing it like Texas start up again and start
Speaker 3: doing it at a fast clip, he could easily just
Speaker 3: die in prison.
Speaker 5: So right, right, one or the other right, So.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and that's they're they're studying the death the
Speaker 3: methods of carrying out the death penalty, and also how
Speaker 3: much it costs in California because it's it's just too
Speaker 3: expensive for some of these counties to prosecute people. And
Speaker 3: some of the families really want that and voters have
Speaker 3: passed that, but it's just extremely costly and there a
Speaker 3: lot of them are just going to die in prison anyway.
Speaker 3: But it's it just as a taxpayer, it's just if
Speaker 3: the system is broken, at least in California, so it's
Speaker 3: just not working. If you know, they want fast action,
Speaker 3: but these these inmates don't even get to see their
Speaker 3: lawyer for at least five years.
Speaker 6: So I mean, the clock is just ticking and we're.
Speaker 3: Having to pay to house these people and seven the
Speaker 3: clothe them, and it's just it takes longer to try them.
Speaker 3: It's but you know, there's so much more involved in
Speaker 3: a death penalty trial because the judges and the attorneys
Speaker 3: are so much they're not they're.
Speaker 6: Not careful usually, but they dot every eye and.
Speaker 3: Cross every two like three times, and they're so scared
Speaker 3: there's going to be an appeal, and you know it's
Speaker 3: just it's just so much more costly.
Speaker 6: It just really is.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well you've written a great book. It's called Body Parts. Uh,
Speaker 5: thank you, Caitlin Rother. Maybe you can tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit about your background. I know that you're a
Speaker 5: career journalist and author, and you have quite a few
Speaker 5: true crime books and non fiction books under your belt
Speaker 5: as well, So maybe tell us about some of those
Speaker 5: books and a little bit about your background.
Speaker 6: Please sure.
Speaker 3: I was a daily newspaper reporter h mostly major metropolitan
Speaker 3: dailies for nineteen years before I quit to write books
Speaker 3: full time in two thousand and six. While I was
Speaker 3: a a reporter, I was covering actually a lot of
Speaker 3: government of politics, so that's a lot of what I did.
Speaker 3: But I was interested in writing human interest stories, and
Speaker 3: I kind of just slowly got more and more into
Speaker 3: covering bizarre crimes and bizarre deaths essentially. So sometimes I
Speaker 3: would write about suicide, I was writing about mental illness.
Speaker 3: I was writing about prisons. I was writing about the
Speaker 3: mentally ill in prisons. So I actually got quite a
Speaker 3: bit of background while I was a reporter at the newspaper,
Speaker 3: not as a crime reporter, but more as an issue
Speaker 3: oriented reporter. I was covering social services and mental health
Speaker 3: and the justice system, but not as a court reporter,
Speaker 3: not as a police reporter, although on Saturdays oftentimes I
Speaker 3: would start doing more and more of these crimes, and
Speaker 3: I just sort of moved in that direction, and I
Speaker 3: kind of got tired of writing about politicians who lied
Speaker 3: to me, so I almost felt like this was cleaner
Speaker 3: in a way. Anyway, I got more and more into it,
Speaker 3: and my first entire criminal trial was the Kristin Rossam
Speaker 3: case in San Diego, a toxicologist for the Medical Examiner's
Speaker 3: Office who poisoned her husband and with drugs she stole
Speaker 3: from the lab and then staged a suicide scene and
Speaker 3: made it look like he had committed suicide because she
Speaker 3: was leaving him. So I covered that for the paper
Speaker 3: and then I wrote a book about it, and that's
Speaker 3: Poisonous Love. That's my first book. Meanwhile, I had been
Speaker 3: working on a novel which has pretty similar themes.
Speaker 6: That's called Naked Addiction.
Speaker 3: Also said in San Diego, with a surfing detective investigating
Speaker 3: a series of beauty school murders. Again, mental illness and
Speaker 3: you know, crimes and drugs, and that's sort of thing similar.
Speaker 6: To poison Love.
Speaker 3: And then my third book is called Twisted Triangle, which
Speaker 3: is an account of the two married FBI agents, Margo
Speaker 3: and Jean Bennett, and a lesbian love affair with Patricia Cornwell,
Speaker 3: the same as crime novelist. Jean Bennett got upset about this,
Speaker 3: ended up kidnapping his wife right before she was going
Speaker 3: to testify against him for fraud. He ends up going
Speaker 3: to prison, is very angry, and ends up trying to
Speaker 3: kill Margot and her minister in a church.
Speaker 6: That's all true.
Speaker 3: And my next book was this one, Body Parts, and
Speaker 3: then the fifth one I co authored.
Speaker 6: It's called Where Hope.
Speaker 3: Begins and it's actually been featured on Doctor Phil several times.
Speaker 6: It's kind of a complicated story and I'm not gonna be.
Speaker 3: Able to tell it too much details the amount of
Speaker 3: time we have. But a TV reporter takes in the
Speaker 3: surviving female members of the Marcus Wesson Math murder. So
Speaker 3: nine dead children ranging in age from babies to a
Speaker 3: twenty five year old, found dead in a pile in
Speaker 3: the back bedroom of a house while the police were
Speaker 3: in the front yard. They were shot somehow didn't hear
Speaker 3: any shots, and she basically helped these women recover from
Speaker 3: this horrible experience and living under the this in a
Speaker 3: cult life, cult like atmosphere of incest and polygamy and
Speaker 3: abuse with this guy Marcus Weston who basically ordered the
Speaker 3: murder of his own children because he wanted to keep
Speaker 3: the family together. And he said, well, I'll join you
Speaker 3: in heaven, but you guys stay together.
Speaker 6: I'm going to stay here. I've got some more work
Speaker 6: to do.
Speaker 3: But he had the oldest daughter shoot all the smaller children.
Speaker 6: It's horrible anyway. And then my last.
Speaker 3: One, which is coming out in February, which i'm just
Speaker 3: finishing up now. It's going to it's called Dead Reckoning,
Speaker 3: and it's the story of Skyler de leone Another, as
Speaker 3: it turns out, turns up to be a serial killer,
Speaker 3: even though he's not a sexual serial killer. He's in
Speaker 3: it for the money and for greed and to make
Speaker 3: his wife happy essentially because she wants things. So they're
Speaker 3: like the Bonnie and Clyde of Orange County, California, and
Speaker 3: they end up planning this whole thing and Skuyler and
Speaker 3: a couple other guys go out on this yacht and
Speaker 3: take these the yacht owners out and tell them, you know,
Speaker 3: that they want to buy the boat, when in fact
Speaker 3: they just want to steal the boat.
Speaker 6: So they tie these two people to an anchor, throw
Speaker 6: them overboard alive, and come back in.
Speaker 3: And try to basically take these people's bank accounts and.
Speaker 6: All their money, and it ends up not working.
Speaker 3: So he and then he tries to kill his father
Speaker 3: and his cousin by hiring inmates and their friends to
Speaker 3: kill them because he thinks they're going to testify against
Speaker 3: them against incredible So that's a pretty gruesome story too.
Speaker 4: Well.
Speaker 5: Caitlin, thank you very much for this incredible interview, and yes,
Speaker 5: thank you, it was my pleasure. You've been listening to
Speaker 5: the program True Murder with my special guest Kaitlyn Rother,
Speaker 5: and we've been discussing her book Body Parts. You have
Speaker 5: yourself a good evening, Caitlin, to thank you.
Speaker 4: Good night,