1
00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,080
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Apologetics three fifteen podcast with

2
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,199
your hosts Brian Auten and Chad Gross. Join us for

3
00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,800
conversations and interviews on the topics of apologetics, evangelism, and

4
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:16,160
the Christian worldview.

5
00:00:19,519 --> 00:00:24,559
Speaker 2: Great when someone asked you if Jesus is God, you see.

6
00:00:24,359 --> 00:00:27,559
Speaker 1: Yes, Hello and welcome to the podcast. This is Brian

7
00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,920
Auten and I'm Chad Gross. We want to welcome you

8
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,359
to today's episode where we'll be interviewing our guest, Rob Bowman.

9
00:00:35,719 --> 00:00:39,520
He's the president of the Institute for Religious Research R

10
00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,840
in Cedar Springs, Michigan. He's the author or co author

11
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,880
of fifteen books and numerous other published works on apologetics,

12
00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:50,679
historical Jesus studies, Christology, the Trinity, and various religious movements.

13
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,399
So we're looking forward to this interview. So, Chad, in

14
00:00:54,479 --> 00:00:56,840
preparation for this interview, I went back and I listened

15
00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,799
to my previous interview with Rob Bowman. I was fifteen

16
00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:01,399
years ago.

17
00:01:01,719 --> 00:01:04,599
Speaker 3: I know, twenty ten, Yeah, because when I put it

18
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,159
on kind of the you know, the sheet that we

19
00:01:06,239 --> 00:01:08,400
kind of make up to prepare, I was so surprised

20
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,519
that it was twenty eleven when you did that interview.

21
00:01:11,879 --> 00:01:14,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I listened to it and like, this is

22
00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:19,640
a good interview. It's like an evergreen topic, apologetic methodology.

23
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,159
We talk about one of his books on that topic

24
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,040
and it was like, great, I can still point people

25
00:01:25,079 --> 00:01:28,280
to this episode. It's it's a great, great resource. Now

26
00:01:28,519 --> 00:01:32,359
I think today's topic is super important and will probably

27
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:36,680
unpack some of the reasons why it's a really great topic.

28
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,920
We're sort of basing some of what we're talking about

29
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,319
on works that doctor Bellman has written. The current book

30
00:01:43,359 --> 00:01:45,959
we're looking at is the Incarnate Christ in his Critics

31
00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,560
a Biblical Defense, but the prior book, which is a

32
00:01:48,599 --> 00:01:52,519
little bit more accessible for people, is called Putting Jesus

33
00:01:52,519 --> 00:01:54,760
in His Place, The Case for the Deity of Christ.

34
00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:57,959
These are epic works, Like if you just wrote one

35
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,480
of these, you'd be like, yeah, I'm done, and this

36
00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:02,640
is this is great, this is but no, they kept

37
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,040
going and so it's amazing. These are amazing books. But

38
00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:09,800
the topic is basically the deity of Christ. How do

39
00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:11,840
we show that? How do we demonstrate that? Is there

40
00:02:11,879 --> 00:02:15,159
an easy sort of way we can communicate that to others?

41
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,759
And these books provide that. So we're going to explore

42
00:02:17,759 --> 00:02:18,719
that in the interview.

43
00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,000
Speaker 3: I'm really looking forward to this. I got the opportunity

44
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:26,400
to hear doctor Bowman speak years ago at a nearby

45
00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,840
church in mount Airy, Maryland, and I remember even then,

46
00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,039
and this was before I did the Apologetics three fifteen podcast,

47
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,240
I thought, man, it would be really fascinating to sit

48
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:37,759
down and talk with him, and so to have the

49
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,240
opportunity to do it is really exciting. Also, one of

50
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,360
the things I love about doctor Bowman, and if you've

51
00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,159
seen him interviewed elsewhere you'll pick up on this, is

52
00:02:46,199 --> 00:02:48,960
that he doesn't see what he does as solely an

53
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,199
academic endeavor, and I really appreciate that. So in other words,

54
00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:58,080
his academic slash scholarly work kind of informs his walk

55
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,319
with Christ. And certainly don't mean to suggest that in

56
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,360
other cases with other thinkers that isn't the case, But

57
00:03:04,439 --> 00:03:06,639
I just mean he's a little bit more explicit with

58
00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,560
that and willing to talk about it, and I really

59
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:10,800
appreciate that about him.

60
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, So listener, what you're going to come away with,

61
00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,319
hopefully by the end of this interview is this conversation

62
00:03:18,039 --> 00:03:21,479
is a really easy way that can help you to

63
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,400
be equipped to explain why the new Testament teaches Jesus

64
00:03:26,479 --> 00:03:28,039
with God incarnate.

65
00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,319
Speaker 3: And so that's what we're hoping you walk away with

66
00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:33,000
a real tool that you can use in actual conversations.

67
00:03:33,479 --> 00:03:35,759
Speaker 1: Chad, if you just turn around real quick, I'm going

68
00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,159
to switch on that power pack and we'll get started.

69
00:03:39,759 --> 00:03:42,599
Doctor Robert Bowman, thanks for joining us for the podcast.

70
00:03:43,039 --> 00:03:43,879
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

71
00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,719
Speaker 1: Well, I was just saying prior to the interview starting

72
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,360
that you know, it's been like fourteen years ago you

73
00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,319
were on the Apologetics three fifteen podcast. We were talking

74
00:03:53,319 --> 00:03:57,240
about Apologetics methodologies, and I was telling Chad, you know,

75
00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,560
I could just go back and listen to that like

76
00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:02,479
today and it would be fresh and really helpful.

77
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,319
Speaker 2: So your work endures. So thank you for that. Well,

78
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,479
thank you, that's very kind. If you appreciate that.

79
00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:11,199
Speaker 1: You know, you're written a couple of amazing books with

80
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,520
your co author. You've written Putting Jesus in His Place,

81
00:04:14,599 --> 00:04:16,560
the Case for the de Day of Christ, and now

82
00:04:16,879 --> 00:04:19,759
the Larger Tome if you want to call it that,

83
00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,279
The Incarnate Christ and his critics a biblical defense, and

84
00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,279
we're going to talk about that, but I'm just want

85
00:04:26,319 --> 00:04:28,879
to start right out of the gate. Someone comes to

86
00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,560
you and they say, you know, Jesus never really claimed

87
00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,720
to be God explicitly, so if he was God, why

88
00:04:36,759 --> 00:04:40,000
wouldn't he just be explicit and just tell him plainly.

89
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,000
I think that's something a lot of people might think.

90
00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:48,720
Speaker 2: Sure, well, in a conversation with a real person, one's

91
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,480
way of starting a response that might vary, but where

92
00:04:52,519 --> 00:04:55,279
you want to get at some point is to say, look,

93
00:04:55,519 --> 00:04:58,240
Jesus didn't say a lot of the things that various

94
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,839
religions have claimed were the proper identification of Jesus. So,

95
00:05:02,959 --> 00:05:08,480
for example, Jehovah's witnesses say that Jesus is Michael, the Archangel. Well,

96
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,040
Jesus never claimed to be Michael. He never claimed to

97
00:05:11,079 --> 00:05:15,720
be an angel of any sort. In fact, and this

98
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,199
is surprising to many people who just don't know the

99
00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:23,040
Gospels very well. Frankly, Jesus never went around saying I

100
00:05:23,079 --> 00:05:27,600
am the Messiah. And yet almost everybody today who professes

101
00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:30,199
some kind of belief in Jesus would agree that, yes,

102
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,120
he was the Messiah and thought he was. But Jesus

103
00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:37,759
avoided making that direct claim. He said yes a couple

104
00:05:37,759 --> 00:05:40,319
of times when he was pass point blank, but he

105
00:05:40,399 --> 00:05:46,360
generally avoided making first person singular claims in an explicit fashion.

106
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,959
I think the reason why is that Jesus knew that

107
00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,959
who he was and what he was was going to

108
00:05:54,959 --> 00:05:58,240
be something rather difficult for people to process until he'd

109
00:05:58,319 --> 00:06:02,519
shown who he was by his actions, and so Jesus

110
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,720
performed his ministry. He performed healings and exorcisms. He spoke,

111
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,560
He spoke in ways that really sounded, you know, in

112
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,920
many people's ears at the time, borderline blasphemous, and in

113
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,360
a few instances he was directly accused of being blasphemous.

114
00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:23,079
But he didn't say I am God. He didn't say

115
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,720
I am the Son of God, except there's one time

116
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,240
when he indirectly says that in John ten thirty six.

117
00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:33,680
Jesus didn't use those kinds of statements. In fact, Jesus'

118
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,000
favorite title for himself, the Son of Man, appears in

119
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,600
all four Gospels, but Jesus is never quoted as saying

120
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,600
I am the son of Man, which is why some

121
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,720
scholars play interesting games with the gospels and try to

122
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,000
argue that Jesus didn't actually think he was the son

123
00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,240
of man. But to get that conclusion you have to

124
00:06:53,319 --> 00:06:55,800
exclude a lot of the statements in the Gospels, where

125
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,959
it's pretty clear Jesus talking about himself. Now, I'm sorry

126
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,079
I've kind of gone around your question a bit, but

127
00:07:02,199 --> 00:07:06,959
the bottom line is this, Jesus wasn't God, the Father,

128
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,439
and in order for people to process the idea of

129
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,720
him being deity and yet distinct from the Father, certain

130
00:07:14,759 --> 00:07:18,759
things had to happen, especially his death and resurrection. When

131
00:07:18,759 --> 00:07:21,800
he conquered death by his own death and resurrection, then

132
00:07:21,839 --> 00:07:25,839
it became clear that when Jesus told Martha, I am

133
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,600
the Resurrection and the Life, he wasn't kidding that Jesus

134
00:07:29,759 --> 00:07:34,199
was life incarnate. He was deity. And so there is

135
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,879
this reticence on the part of Jesus to speak openly

136
00:07:37,959 --> 00:07:42,160
about his identity in every aspect, because this is something

137
00:07:42,199 --> 00:07:46,319
that needed to be shown rather than just told. I

138
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,439
think if he'd said I'm God, people would have thought

139
00:07:49,439 --> 00:07:52,680
he meant he was the Father. If he tried to elaborate,

140
00:07:52,759 --> 00:07:57,360
you know, using maybe fourth century theological vocabulary, you know,

141
00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:01,000
or even later vocabulary, I'm God, the second person of

142
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,160
the Trinity, people would have said, what would you say?

143
00:08:04,199 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 1: Maybe people have it's easy for us with our theological understanding,

144
00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:13,160
or like taking certain things like the Trinity, for granted

145
00:08:13,519 --> 00:08:17,279
to wonder, Hey, why do these people not get it back?

146
00:08:17,319 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 2: Then? Yeah, well, we find people in the Gospels reported

147
00:08:21,399 --> 00:08:24,839
as asking who does this guy think he is? Who

148
00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,600
is this man? How can he do these things? Why

149
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,839
would he say these things? You know? And so Jesus

150
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:32,799
was a bit of a puzzle to people in his

151
00:08:32,879 --> 00:08:38,639
own day, according to the Gospels. And because I mean, frankly, anybody,

152
00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:43,000
any physical human being walking around saying things that sound

153
00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:47,720
like he's claiming divine prerogatives is going to get something

154
00:08:48,639 --> 00:08:51,679
of a pushback, is going to be regarded as either

155
00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:57,159
off his rocker, a megalomaniac, or something that it's going

156
00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,279
to be difficult to process. And so jess doesn't make

157
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,799
first person claims like that, but he lets what he

158
00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:07,279
says and does add up in people's minds, and so

159
00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,840
that when he's risen from the dead, Thomas can say,

160
00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,399
according to John twenty twenty eight, my Lord and my God,

161
00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:15,600
I really want to say one other thing about this.

162
00:09:15,759 --> 00:09:17,480
And I mean, we could talk about this for an

163
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,759
hour easily. There's a lot to unpack here, but I

164
00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:23,279
do want to say this, This is crucial, This is key.

165
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,279
Critics now I'm not just talking about regular people who say, gee,

166
00:09:27,279 --> 00:09:30,440
how come Jesus wasn't clearers of I'm talking about people

167
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,639
who advocate an anti trinitarian, anti incarnational view of Jesus.

168
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,519
Their arguments really typically come down to this sort of

169
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,120
thing that, well, why doesn't the Bible say it this way?

170
00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,360
So instead of dealing with what the Bible does say,

171
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,480
they carpet what it doesn't. It's the old fallacy of

172
00:09:53,519 --> 00:09:57,759
an appeal to silence writ large, because they'll say, well,

173
00:09:57,879 --> 00:10:01,000
wel come, Jesus didn't say he was good. Well, then

174
00:10:01,039 --> 00:10:07,399
I point out, well, Thomas, John, Paul, the Hebrews, they

175
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,639
all call Jesus God. Well, it doesn't say that he's God,

176
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,320
the Son, second person, the Trinity. So it doesn't You

177
00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:17,559
can't win. You know, They've got this mindset that if

178
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,000
I can just point out something it doesn't say, I

179
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,039
won the I've won the argument that that isn't the

180
00:10:23,039 --> 00:10:26,039
way this works. You need to deal with what the

181
00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,039
texts do say and not merely carpet what they don't say.

182
00:10:32,159 --> 00:10:34,879
Speaker 3: So that can almost be used as a type of

183
00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:38,320
red herring of almost like oh, well, but we should

184
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,600
have this, and it's almost like look, over here at

185
00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,559
what we should have instead of directly dealing with what

186
00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:44,120
we do have.

187
00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,279
Speaker 2: I can't I can't over emphasize how common this kind

188
00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:54,559
of argumentation is in Biblical arguments and theology. People constantly

189
00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,879
are appealing to silence or appealing to ignorance, which is

190
00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:01,480
a similar sounding thing. Well, you can't prove this isn't

191
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,200
so well, that isn't how this is done either. You

192
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,799
need to show reason why we should accept your view.

193
00:11:08,519 --> 00:11:11,000
You know, it's odd Jesus never went around saying I

194
00:11:11,039 --> 00:11:13,799
am a man, but of course everybody knew he was.

195
00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:17,200
Now you may say, well, that's silly, rob but there

196
00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,480
have been religions through the throughout church history, particularly in

197
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:23,919
modern times, that have questioned whether Jesus really was human,

198
00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:27,879
and there were you know, confused. There was some confusion

199
00:11:27,919 --> 00:11:32,399
about this even in the second century, about whether Jesus

200
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,559
the Man was identical with the Christ. And so even

201
00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,399
at the end of the first century, John is saying,

202
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,679
you know that this is the spirit of the Antichrist

203
00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,279
that's dying, that Jesus Christ has actually come in the

204
00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:49,639
flesh verse John chapter four. So what seems obvious to

205
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,320
us may not seem obvious to somebody else. And that's

206
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,240
another really important point here. It may be obvious to

207
00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,360
the Jehovah's witnesses that Jesus isn't God, but to the

208
00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:03,720
Ones's Pentecostals, it's quite obvious that he is. In fact,

209
00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:07,399
they think he's the Father, and they don't understand why

210
00:12:07,519 --> 00:12:14,240
other people don't recognize, including Trinitarians, that Jesus is the Father. Well, see,

211
00:12:14,919 --> 00:12:17,399
what you think is obvious to you as a reader

212
00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,919
of the Bible may not be obvious to somebody else.

213
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,360
So we need to get past this kind of fascile

214
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,399
assumption that our reading of the Bible is the obvious

215
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:29,720
and correct reading and get down to dealing with everything

216
00:12:29,759 --> 00:12:31,440
that scripture says about Jesus.

217
00:12:32,159 --> 00:12:35,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as before, we start kind of digging into

218
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,960
the actual evidence of why there's good reason to believe

219
00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:42,320
Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, the god Man.

220
00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:44,639
One of the things in the beginning early on in

221
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,600
your book, your latest One, The Incarnate Christ and his Critics,

222
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,759
that you point out that I found alarming, if I'm

223
00:12:51,799 --> 00:12:57,480
being honest, is how many Christians are actually confused about

224
00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,240
who Jesus is. Particularly, one thing that's out is the

225
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,440
fact of how many Christians who claim to be evangelical

226
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:09,120
believers actually think Jesus is a created being. And so

227
00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,720
as I'm listening to you talking about those who are

228
00:13:12,759 --> 00:13:15,480
confused about who Jesus is, whether they be in a

229
00:13:16,159 --> 00:13:20,120
cult or a false religion, or even just a you know,

230
00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:22,399
a lay person who's just trying to figure out who

231
00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,159
he is, it occurs to me that we his followers

232
00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:29,840
should at least we've got to get that right. And

233
00:13:29,879 --> 00:13:33,639
so my question is is why do you think that

234
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,759
is the reality that so many people don't know what

235
00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:38,759
it means to say that Jesus is God.

236
00:13:39,039 --> 00:13:42,799
Speaker 2: A lack of teaching is obviously obviously going to be

237
00:13:42,919 --> 00:13:49,080
the prime culprit here. Evangelical churches generally don't teach theology

238
00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:53,440
to their congregations. They teach how you can have a

239
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,960
better marriage and family life. They teach, you know, maybe

240
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,120
how to share your faith with somebody else without necessarily

241
00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,320
helping you understand the content of what you're trying to share.

242
00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:07,840
You know, there's a lot of things that do get taught,

243
00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:10,879
but there isn't much in the way of theology. There

244
00:14:10,919 --> 00:14:14,480
isn't much in the way of actual biblical exposition. Even

245
00:14:14,519 --> 00:14:18,720
though many evangelical pastors preach through books of the Bible,

246
00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:22,919
they don't really preach the book. They take a verse

247
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,519
in a passage and they use it as springboard for

248
00:14:25,639 --> 00:14:28,960
some kind of moralizing or some kind of spiritual pep talk,

249
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,799
and rather than actually getting into what this passage is

250
00:14:32,799 --> 00:14:35,519
saying in its context, how it applies to us today,

251
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:41,440
I think pastors are afraid that their congregation won't track

252
00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:44,519
with what the text says, assuming the pastor is able

253
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,120
to do that himself, which sometimes isn't the case as well.

254
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:53,080
So there's a serious lack of theological education going on

255
00:14:53,639 --> 00:14:57,000
in the congregations, but also to some extent before the

256
00:14:57,039 --> 00:14:59,559
pastors and other people in the church who are teaching

257
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,039
get in there. So we've got to encourage and urge

258
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,840
and beg and plead with people in leadership in Christian

259
00:15:06,919 --> 00:15:10,840
churches to make this a priority. Not to dumb down

260
00:15:10,879 --> 00:15:13,759
the Gospel, not to dumb down the doctrine of scripture,

261
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:20,120
not to dumb down Christian theology, but to challenge their congregation,

262
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,679
challenge the members of their churches to get into this

263
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,240
stuff and think hard and long about these things, and

264
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,759
clearly about these things. And the reason why they need

265
00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:35,240
to do it is because if they don't, any wind

266
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,639
of false doctrine can blow them away very easily. Any also,

267
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,000
a skepticism can knock them off their feet, as people say, well,

268
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,679
now that isn't that's not really what the Bible says.

269
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,440
There are people on TikTok and YouTube and whatnot that

270
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,200
are getting lots and lots of people watching them who

271
00:15:56,279 --> 00:15:59,279
are saying that the Bible doesn't teach there's only one God.

272
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,240
It doesn't teach that Jesus is God incarnate. Uh, you know,

273
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,559
on and on and on, and there's not enough pushback

274
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,360
on that. And so we need to be very very

275
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,480
intentional in the churches and make sure that people are

276
00:16:15,559 --> 00:16:20,960
learning Christian doctrine. Unfortunately, many people they're there the entirety

277
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,000
of their Christian education comes in a half hour, forty

278
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,159
five minute sermon Sunday morning and that's it. Uh. And

279
00:16:28,279 --> 00:16:31,039
many pastors are under the impression that they have to

280
00:16:31,799 --> 00:16:35,600
serve milk every Sunday. We just need to work against

281
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,639
that trend. We need to we need to push for

282
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:46,279
stronger teaching that challenges people's minds. Jesus quoting the Great

283
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,720
Commandment you know said. What he said was the greatest commandment, said,

284
00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:53,679
you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind,

285
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:58,360
and strength. The mind of the Christian is a terrible

286
00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:01,279
thing to waste. We've got to Christians how to think

287
00:17:01,919 --> 00:17:04,200
and how to understand their faith so that they can

288
00:17:04,279 --> 00:17:06,920
live it and so they can share it with others.

289
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 1: Let's say I'm talking to someone and I'm trying to

290
00:17:10,519 --> 00:17:13,119
witness to them, and I'm trying to explain to them

291
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,400
what Jesus has done and.

292
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:16,119
Speaker 2: Who he is.

293
00:17:16,759 --> 00:17:20,720
Speaker 1: What sort of weight does the idea of the divinity

294
00:17:20,759 --> 00:17:24,839
of Christ or him being God incarnate? What role does

295
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,960
that play apologetically and as you understand it well.

296
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 2: I don't know that I want to go into a

297
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,079
conversation with somebody who doesn't yet believe in Christ with

298
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,880
the goal that that person has to come to understand

299
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,599
the doctrine of the Trinity adequately before he or she

300
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,720
can become a believer. I don't think that that's a

301
00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:52,319
reasonable or necessary expectation. The basic story, which is found

302
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,519
throughout the New Testament in various places and explained in

303
00:17:55,599 --> 00:17:59,119
various ways, it's pretty easy to understand, even if in

304
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,799
the details the logically we get a little tripped up,

305
00:18:01,839 --> 00:18:05,359
and that is that God sent God, the Father, sent

306
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:09,359
his son Jesus Christ into the world. He came, came

307
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,000
down from heaven. He was just like the Father in

308
00:18:12,079 --> 00:18:15,920
his eternal divine nature, but he wasn't the Father. He

309
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,640
came from the Father, humbled himself to become a human being,

310
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,920
live a perfect life, die on the cross for our sins,

311
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,440
rise from the dead. He's gone back into heaven and

312
00:18:27,559 --> 00:18:31,279
is with the Father ruling over all creation and bringing

313
00:18:31,319 --> 00:18:36,119
people into a restored relationship with God through faith in him.

314
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:43,559
And that story doesn't require a lot of theological explanation

315
00:18:43,759 --> 00:18:48,039
up front. It may engender some theological questions which we

316
00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:52,799
should be prepared to address, but you know, I think

317
00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:55,640
it's pretty straightforward. I mean, John three point sixteen in

318
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,160
a way can be unpacked to lay all that out.

319
00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:03,880
It's very clear from passages like Galatians four verses four

320
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,720
to six. God sent his son fullness of time, born

321
00:19:07,759 --> 00:19:10,119
of a woman, born under the law, so that we

322
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,480
might become God's children through faith in him and have

323
00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,240
His spirit, have the spirit of His Son in us.

324
00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:20,119
So the Christian message isn't just a message of sort

325
00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,319
of a get out of Hell free card. But it's

326
00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:25,880
a message of coming into a new relationship with God,

327
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,960
who will be our father and who will transform us,

328
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,880
who will change us, who will help us to become

329
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,720
the kind of people that are fit to live forever

330
00:19:35,319 --> 00:19:39,039
in His kingdom. And this is wonderful news. It's not

331
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,920
something that you know, we should be in any way

332
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,000
embarrassed by. But admittedly, when we get into the details,

333
00:19:46,039 --> 00:19:48,640
people are going to have some theological questions. We should

334
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,839
be prepared to address those. I didn't understand or even

335
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,799
necessarily accept in any kind of clear fashion the Doctor

336
00:19:56,839 --> 00:19:59,200
in the Trinity when I first became a believer, I

337
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,400
had to go through a process. When it first got challenged,

338
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,079
I really had trouble. And I not only had trouble

339
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,839
because it's a difficult doctrine, but because people in my

340
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,640
church didn't know how to explain it adequately. I mean,

341
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,400
I had a leader in my college age group telling me,

342
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,039
an adult, older adult leader, telling me that Jesus was

343
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:24,839
the father I believe, and I knew that wasn't right. Yeah,

344
00:20:23,799 --> 00:20:27,240
you know, I was what I was, I eighteen or nineteen,

345
00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:30,400
I mean, you know, and I just knew that wasn't right.

346
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,720
But this is how you know this. This is often

347
00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:37,160
how things get explained by people that don't have any

348
00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:41,240
kind of, you know, solid teaching on this. If I

349
00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:44,480
may get on another pet peeve of mine, I hear

350
00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:48,920
people praying in churches all the time who jump back

351
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,759
and forth between the Father and the Son without realizing

352
00:20:51,799 --> 00:20:54,079
that's what they're doing. So they'll say thank you Father

353
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,119
for coming into the world and dying for us on

354
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,799
the cross, or some something that sounds very much like that.

355
00:20:59,319 --> 00:21:03,559
That that's not right now. I don't think they are

356
00:21:03,799 --> 00:21:06,319
aware of the fact that they're even saying that. I

357
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:12,240
think extemporaneous prayers in public is not something everybody is

358
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,039
necessarily going to be very comfortable doing or know what

359
00:21:16,079 --> 00:21:18,680
they're doing. And if you ask them, do you think

360
00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:22,359
Jesus is the Father, they'd probably say no. But the

361
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,240
fact of the matter is is that this kind of

362
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:29,200
thing does happen an awful lot. And so it's crucial

363
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,400
that in the church, as people are being discipled, that is,

364
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,000
as they are being taught what the Christian life is

365
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,240
all about, what the Christian faith actually affirms, that these

366
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,039
things get explained so that people are have a more

367
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,240
secure and solid understanding that they can apply in their

368
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,279
own lives and in their own prayers, and in their

369
00:21:50,319 --> 00:21:52,920
own conversations with other people who don't yet believe.

370
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,279
Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things where I want to

371
00:21:56,319 --> 00:21:58,640
go here. The first thing is, we do want to

372
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,359
get to the hands acronym because it's such a useful

373
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,400
way of remembering and sort of working through the various

374
00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:10,559
lines of argument for the deity of Christ. But before

375
00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:12,799
we get there, just to wrap up what you were

376
00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:17,359
saying about the role of this, understanding this or using

377
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,759
this in evangelism or apologetics. It's not essential for someone

378
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:25,920
to understand everything like that, or you know, the Trinity

379
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,680
and these certain doctrines. But where what do you think

380
00:22:29,759 --> 00:22:35,519
is the benefit of having a good understanding of Let's say,

381
00:22:35,559 --> 00:22:38,960
if someone read your book, the first one, for instance,

382
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:44,839
you know, putting Jesus in His Place? Yes, exactly, if

383
00:22:44,839 --> 00:22:47,440
they read putting Jesus in His Place, what's that going

384
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,160
to equip them with? How will that build them up

385
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,559
or equip them to share with others?

386
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I think either book has the

387
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:02,079
potential to enhance and enrich a Christian's own personal understanding

388
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,680
of who Jesus is and what he did for us,

389
00:23:06,279 --> 00:23:09,920
what kind of a person he was, humanly speaking? Even

390
00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:13,359
I have to tell you that in working on these books,

391
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,200
I found myself from time to time and I'm I

392
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,880
tend to approach these things very much as an academic,

393
00:23:20,079 --> 00:23:23,240
you know, in terms of my style and what i'm

394
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,279
you know, my mode of thinking at the time. You know,

395
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,359
I'm sort of tunnel vision. I've got to solve this

396
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,240
exegetical problem and I've got to explain it. Just so,

397
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:38,440
I found myself frequently just moved by by the person

398
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:44,119
of Christ. And so do you mind if I give

399
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:49,000
you an example. I'm reading Mark. I'm reading Mark and

400
00:23:49,039 --> 00:23:53,279
his Marx account of Jesus casting out the legion of

401
00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:59,359
demons from the demoniac, who was so strong they couldn't

402
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,720
hold him down, they couldn't keep him tied up. He

403
00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:06,319
was just beating everybody up, and he was running around nude,

404
00:24:06,319 --> 00:24:08,920
and he was just out of control, and nobody could

405
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,480
do anything about it. Jesus comes and says, what's your name, Lesion?

406
00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:16,519
Because we are many? Well, that means something in the

407
00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:20,480
neighborhood of a couple thousand demons, Maybe not quite that many,

408
00:24:20,519 --> 00:24:25,039
but a lot of demons, so Jesus doesn't have to

409
00:24:25,039 --> 00:24:27,519
do much of anything. He just tells the legion of

410
00:24:27,559 --> 00:24:31,440
demons to go jump in the lake, or go jump

411
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,480
in the water into the pigs. The pigs. They jump

412
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,319
into the pigs, the pigs jump into the water. That's

413
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,400
how it actually goes down. So he basically just tells

414
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,359
them what to go do with themselves, and they do it.

415
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:48,519
He has effortless control in these circumstances. Likewise, when he's

416
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,000
asleep on the boat on the Sea of Galilee and

417
00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:54,039
they wake him up saying, we're drowning here this terrible storm,

418
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,119
Jesus looks out on the sea and he tells it

419
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,680
to shut up, and it does. I mean, it's just effortless.

420
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:04,440
And that is an accurate English equivalent of what Jesus

421
00:25:04,599 --> 00:25:07,200
is recorded as saying in Greek is basically shut up.

422
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:14,039
Now fast forward in Mark, when Jesus is being tormented

423
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:19,640
by the soldiers before his crucifixion. There's a sizable but

424
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,599
smaller detachment of soldiers. We don't know exactly how many,

425
00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:26,279
we don't know if they were all there, but there

426
00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:29,880
was enough that they were hitting him and spitting on

427
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,160
him and you know, kicking. Basically, they were just physically

428
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,119
abusing him, and it occurred to me, and I think

429
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,519
Mark deliberately crafts his narrative so that you won't miss

430
00:25:41,559 --> 00:25:44,640
this if you're reading straight through, rather than just you know,

431
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,279
doing the verse of a day thing. Jesus had the

432
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,799
power to blow those soldiers away with an effortless word.

433
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,160
He could have had them all just gone, and he

434
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:03,920
stood there and took it. And now, look, there's a

435
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,799
lot of ways that we talk about the deity of

436
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:11,279
Christ and how it's revealed, but that kind of personal character,

437
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,920
self control, self discipline, the willingness to stand there and

438
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,240
take the abuse for you and for me, by the way,

439
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:28,559
voluntarily submitting to that abuse when he could have stopped

440
00:26:28,559 --> 00:26:33,440
it at any moment, speaks to me very loudly about

441
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:38,119
what kind of person he was and how glorious his

442
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,960
moral fiber and character were. Jesus sinlessness isn't just a

443
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,480
matter of not doing bad things. It's a matter of

444
00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:53,079
being a positive, definitive expression of God's holy character in

445
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,519
a human being. It's astonishing. And so what I'm getting

446
00:26:58,559 --> 00:27:00,599
at here is I hope that as people read either

447
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,880
one of these books that they will personally be enriched

448
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,319
in their appreciation for who Jesus is in terms of

449
00:27:07,319 --> 00:27:09,960
what kind of person he was as a human being

450
00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:14,559
on the earth and is now, and how marvelous his

451
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:19,599
love is for us, and astonishing his power is. And

452
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,400
of course we want them to understand the doctrine. But

453
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,039
the doctrine is a means to the end of coming

454
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:30,920
into a relationship with Jesus Christ in which we honor

455
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,119
him and worship him and glorify him and love him.

456
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,720
Jesus said to his disciples, if you don't love me

457
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,160
more than you love your parents, you're not worthy of me. Now.

458
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,279
In an honor shame culture, particularly the Jewish culture, in

459
00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:51,440
which parents were at the top of the heap in

460
00:27:51,519 --> 00:27:54,799
terms of human beings and the honors that they deserved,

461
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,279
the only one that could be higher than your parents

462
00:27:58,319 --> 00:28:02,359
in terms of the the pecking order of deserving honor

463
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,119
would be God. And here Jesus saying, if you don't

464
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,079
love me more than you love your mom and your dad,

465
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,720
you're not worthy to follow me. You can just leave

466
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:14,079
right now. So this isn't just about getting the doctrine right.

467
00:28:14,319 --> 00:28:17,759
It's coming into a love relationship with the son of God,

468
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:24,680
who gave himself, who showed how much God loves me

469
00:28:24,759 --> 00:28:28,039
and how much He loves me by dying on the

470
00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:31,920
cross for my sins. It's about coming into a relationship

471
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,960
with him and loving him and honoring him. Jesus said

472
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,000
in John five twenty three that all are to honor

473
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:41,759
the Son just as they honor the Father. We are

474
00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:44,279
to give Jesus the same honor that we give to

475
00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:47,680
God the Father, the same honor. We're to honor him

476
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,680
in the same way. And throughout the New Testament you

477
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,160
see Jesus receiving worship, being the object of prayer, being glorified,

478
00:28:54,519 --> 00:28:57,359
all of these things, because he is worthy of all

479
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,200
of it. So that's the first thing I'd want a

480
00:29:00,279 --> 00:29:02,799
Christian who's reading either of these books to get. I

481
00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:05,200
want them to come at it first and foremost for

482
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,359
themselves to learn more about Jesus, to understand the New

483
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,039
Testament better, because the New Testament's all about Jesus, right,

484
00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:17,160
So you're going to understand the Bible better, You're going

485
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,519
to understand and appreciate Jesus better. You're going to be

486
00:29:21,039 --> 00:29:26,160
encouraged to foster a closer and more meaningful relationship with

487
00:29:26,279 --> 00:29:30,640
Jesus and then that will then hopefully spill out into

488
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,559
you being better equipped and better fit personally to tell

489
00:29:35,599 --> 00:29:38,720
other people about Jesus. It's no good telling people well,

490
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:40,279
now that you're a Christian, you need to go out

491
00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:44,920
and tell other people about Jesus just that alone, you know,

492
00:29:45,039 --> 00:29:49,279
without the cultivating of the relationship, the development of the

493
00:29:50,319 --> 00:29:53,400
faith and the trust and the love for Jesus that

494
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,920
we are to have, it's going to be barn. It's

495
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,000
going to be difficult for that to bear fruit. It

496
00:29:59,079 --> 00:30:01,039
needs to come out of a heart, out of a

497
00:30:01,119 --> 00:30:05,839
mind that is just immersed in a relationship with Jesus,

498
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,599
where he is in fact more important to you than

499
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,359
anybody and anything else, and then it's going to be

500
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:14,400
much more effective.

501
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, A man, well put reading through the book. I

502
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:24,960
mean I started in preparation for the interview. I sometimes

503
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,160
I put book PDFs or books into text to speech

504
00:30:29,319 --> 00:30:31,759
and I listen to them because I can fill the

505
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,759
more time. And I've only got eight hours done of

506
00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:37,400
twenty nine hours.

507
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:38,839
Speaker 2: Because it's a big book.

508
00:30:39,079 --> 00:30:42,039
Speaker 1: Maybe that's all the footnotes, but you know, I can

509
00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:45,599
say that just even in reading a small portion, and

510
00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:48,279
you know, I've read your previous book, but this one

511
00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:52,640
again in reading it, it's like so edifying and I

512
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,119
just feel like when I'm reading it, like, man, this

513
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,920
is brilliant. And maybe that's part of the reason I'm

514
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:04,519
thinking of it being an evangelistic thing, like where can

515
00:31:04,599 --> 00:31:08,960
this work evangelistically or apologetically? Because for me, when you

516
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,759
see the piece is fitting together so well, like it's

517
00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:15,920
almost like, you know, if you were with Jesus seeing

518
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,960
him do all of these things, there's going to come

519
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,839
a point where you're like, my Lord and my God.

520
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,279
You know you're you're the Christ, you know, because just

521
00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:27,640
to the cumulative the cumulative case there, so yes, I

522
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,359
can attest that it is very edifying and wonderful.

523
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,359
Speaker 2: Thank you. I think when we talk to people, we

524
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,839
need to try to find out kind of what makes

525
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,400
them tick and what maybe is keeping them from a

526
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,960
relationship with God, or what's keeping them from trusting God,

527
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:49,839
or what's blocking their mind from taking this seriously or

528
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,799
whatever it is. And you know, we might find out

529
00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:54,960
any number of things. They might say, well, you know,

530
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:57,279
I'm a scientist, and I've been taught that you can

531
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,400
only believe in what you can see in touch and

532
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,000
taste and well, and so we might have to address that.

533
00:32:02,119 --> 00:32:04,759
Or they might say, well, there's so many different beliefs

534
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,640
about Jesus, I don't know how to decide which one's right.

535
00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:11,640
Or they might say, well, God seems so far away.

536
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:14,319
You know, things happen, bad things happen, and he's not

537
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,079
doing anything about it, and I just don't understand that,

538
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:18,960
And I don't know how to relate to a God

539
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,440
that seems so distant. Whatever it is, we need to

540
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,319
find out what that is, kind of what is driving

541
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,559
them into this mindset of I just can't come to

542
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,559
grips with it, I can't believe it, And then we

543
00:32:32,599 --> 00:32:35,880
can address that. And Jesus is the answer to practically

544
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,359
every one of those things. You know, there's actual physical

545
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:46,319
and historical proof evidence, strong evidence that Jesus rose from

546
00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:49,440
the dead. That ought to satisfy anybody who's got a

547
00:32:49,559 --> 00:32:52,000
rational mindset and just wants to know what the facts

548
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,680
Jesus shows us that God cares John three point sixteen.

549
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,440
We've mentioned that already Romans five eight, For God commends

550
00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:00,319
his own love toward us in that whole we were

551
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,720
yet sinners. Christ died for us to know that God

552
00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:07,519
loves you, so much that he was willing to send

553
00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:11,279
his son, who voluntary, voluntarily came, humbled himself and went

554
00:33:11,319 --> 00:33:14,759
through all that for you and for me should help

555
00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:17,279
the person come to realize God isn't that far away

556
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:20,000
as I thought. You know, he's not as far away

557
00:33:20,039 --> 00:33:22,920
as I thought. He does care. He's not just letting

558
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,400
things go and not getting involved. He has got involved.

559
00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:31,599
Every time he got whipped by those soldiers, God was involved.

560
00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:35,160
God was feeling the pain of the world so that

561
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,480
we could be free from the consequences of our own sin.

562
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,440
And so I just I think we need to in

563
00:33:44,519 --> 00:33:48,240
our talking with people who don't yet believe, who are unbelievers,

564
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:52,160
we need to find out kind of where things have

565
00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:55,640
tripped up for them, and not necessarily that they're always

566
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,720
going to come around, but at least we can address

567
00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:00,799
that and give them something to think about, something to

568
00:34:00,799 --> 00:34:03,519
to cogitate on and reflect on, and maybe at some

569
00:34:03,599 --> 00:34:06,039
point later they may say, you know, that was a

570
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:09,719
good point, that maybe I should be taking this more seriously.

571
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,519
Speaker 1: Well, let's transition down to the sort of this overall

572
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,199
five point case, or if you want to put it

573
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:21,159
that way, that you have an acronym called hands and

574
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:27,840
there's five lines or categories of argumentation you use to

575
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,159
make a case for the deed of Christ. Now we

576
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:32,320
don't want to unpack each one right now, but if

577
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,280
you could give us the overview of what each one

578
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,280
of those are, like what does the H, A, n

579
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,880
DS stand for, and what each one of those means,

580
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,920
and then maybe we'll go through and give a few

581
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,880
examples later on after you answer that.

582
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 2: Sure, Well, first of all, I want to give a

583
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,840
shout out to my co author Ed Kamashevsky, who's the

584
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,360
one that came up with the acronym before we even

585
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,239
started working on the first book. And it's it's very

586
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,880
it's it's very helpful because it brings together these different

587
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:03,960
ways in which the New Testament reveals Jesus to be

588
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,320
God incarnate in a very effective and easy to remember fashion.

589
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,159
So he gets some serious credit for having come up

590
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:12,360
with this.

591
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 3: Real quick, if I could interject, just real fast. I

592
00:35:15,039 --> 00:35:17,480
came across this acronym for the first time in the

593
00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:21,920
Apologetic Study Bible for Students. You guys have an article

594
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,639
in there, and that's been my go to ever since

595
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,800
because I used to kind of use John one and

596
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,199
try to kind of exegete john one, which I'm not

597
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,519
saying is a bad way to go, but I just

598
00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:38,639
think that that the hands acronym, it's so cumulative, yes,

599
00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:42,559
that the more you continue to go through it, the

600
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:44,519
more powerful the case becomes.

601
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 2: Right well real quickly, so that people get the big

602
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,519
picture here. Each of the five points, the name of

603
00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:54,360
it starts with the first letter of If you put

604
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,719
the first letter of each name together, it spells out hands.

605
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:03,960
So honors, h attributes, a names, and deeds is the

606
00:36:04,039 --> 00:36:06,840
d and then s is the seat of God's throne,

607
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,280
which may be the least familiar to many people, but

608
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,800
it's an important points, sort of a crowning point really

609
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:18,239
in the whole picture. So Jesus receives divine honors, worship

610
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,079
and prayer and glory and all the rest of that.

611
00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:25,199
He has divine attributes, like he's all powerful and all knowing.

612
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,599
He's eternal. That's really the critical one. I would argue

613
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,639
that Jesus is not a created being, but he's eternal.

614
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,960
Jesus has divine names. God is used sparingly, but it

615
00:36:36,039 --> 00:36:39,239
is used of Jesus Lord in the sense of and

616
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,400
in the context of the divine name from the Old

617
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,920
Testament Yahweh or Jehovah savior in the sense of being

618
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,159
the savior of the world, the first and the last.

619
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:50,159
I mean, we could go on and on. Jesus performs

620
00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:54,880
divine deeds. All things came into being through him. John

621
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:59,840
one three, and similar statements in Colossians and Hebrews first

622
00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,519
Corinthians eight six. Jesus is the Savior. He saves us

623
00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:06,880
from our sins. He forgives us of our sins, not

624
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:11,480
as merely a delegate pronouncing that God has forgiven you

625
00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:16,679
of your sins. But Jesus says, your sins are forgiven famously.

626
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,800
The story of the paralytic Jesus said that and describes

627
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,159
that there saying, well, only God can do that. And

628
00:37:24,199 --> 00:37:27,360
then the s is the seat of God's throne. Jesus,

629
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,800
after his resurrection and ascension, sat down at the right

630
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,480
hand of God, the Father in heaven. He sits on

631
00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:39,119
the throne of God. He rules over all creation, heaven

632
00:37:39,159 --> 00:37:43,400
and earth with all authority. From the very throne room

633
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,639
of God. He receives worship according to Revelation five. And

634
00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:48,840
all these points, by the way, kind of go together.

635
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:53,239
In some fashion. They tend to appear in groups in

636
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,239
short passages like Revelation five and clausans Wan and John

637
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,400
one and Hebrews one Philippians too. Now, if I could

638
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,199
just explain how these all kind of fit together with

639
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,719
an analogy, because if you take any one of these

640
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,159
by itself, you might think, well, he could mean something

641
00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:14,880
else other than he's really God. It could mean that,

642
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,719
you know, he's acting on God's behalf or something. So

643
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,000
if you find out that a particular individual resides at

644
00:38:23,039 --> 00:38:28,000
sixteen hundred Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, d C. And he

645
00:38:28,159 --> 00:38:32,320
sits behind the big desk in the Oval Office, and

646
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,159
he signs federal legislation into law, which only one person

647
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:43,880
is allowed to do normally, And although he doesn't wear

648
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,800
a military uniform, whenever he's walking by military members of

649
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,719
our military will salute him even though he's not in

650
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,800
the military. And you know, we could go on and

651
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,280
on with all these different things about this individual. After

652
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,519
you've got enough of these pieces of the puzzle put

653
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:03,320
together about this individual, your conclusion is going to be, well,

654
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:08,239
this must be the President of the United States. So

655
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,280
just because the term president can be used to refer

656
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,440
to the head of a company, somewhere, and people do

657
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:16,760
get saluted in the military. They don't have to be

658
00:39:18,119 --> 00:39:20,559
the president. Could be a general or even a major

659
00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:24,960
or something, or you know, somebody could be allowed to

660
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,280
a family member, could be allowed to have a little

661
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,559
fun and sit in the chair in the oval office,

662
00:39:29,599 --> 00:39:32,480
you know. And all that. There's only one person who's

663
00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:35,119
allowed to do all those things. Who say about whom

664
00:39:35,159 --> 00:39:38,280
all those things are true, There's only one individual, and

665
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,840
that's the President of the United States. Whoever that happens

666
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:45,199
to be at the time. Well, likewise, Jesus receiving divine honors,

667
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,960
exhibiting divine attributes, having divine names, performing divine deeds, and

668
00:39:51,039 --> 00:39:54,079
sitting on the seat of God's throne, all of that

669
00:39:54,119 --> 00:39:56,320
put together, he can only be God. He can't be

670
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,800
anything less than God. Now he's not the Father, but

671
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,000
so he is distinct from the Father, but he shares

672
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,760
in the divine identity and function of God, the Father

673
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:15,400
as creator, Lord, redeemer, and judge at the final day,

674
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,199
Jesus is the one. He occupies that position. He receives

675
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,000
those honors, and anyone about whom all those things are

676
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:25,039
true must be God.

677
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it puts me in my wife and my daughter

678
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,079
like to put puzzles together, and it's kind of like,

679
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,519
you know, each puzzle piece tells you something about the

680
00:40:35,519 --> 00:40:38,480
whole picture, but once you put them all together, it's

681
00:40:38,559 --> 00:40:40,719
clear what the image is.

682
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:41,079
Speaker 2: Right.

683
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,039
Speaker 3: So I know that's not a perfect analogy because in

684
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:46,760
this case, some of for example, the attributes would be

685
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,800
much bigger pieces of the puzzle, right, But it's almost

686
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,199
like the acronym serves as like puzzle pieces, and when

687
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,599
you keep putting them together, it's very clear who we're

688
00:40:56,639 --> 00:40:57,280
talking about.

689
00:40:57,519 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: Yes, And I want to also call fire clarify that

690
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,960
when we talk about this with the analogy of a puzzle,

691
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,840
we're not talking about pulling different parts of the Bible

692
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,440
out from their context and jamming them into a picture

693
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,119
that can wrap them. You're not saying that at all.

694
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,599
I'm just saying some people might mis understand and have

695
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,400
Actually it's used Christians of doing that. So one of

696
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,639
the things that we do in the book is we

697
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,760
show that all five of these points are present in

698
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,559
a number of different passages, all in the same context.

699
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,360
So Matthew twenty eight sixteen to twenty all five points

700
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,440
are there. John one one to eighteen, The prologue of

701
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,599
the Gospel John. All five points are there. Colossians One's

702
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,079
twelve to twenty, Hebrews one one to thirteen or fourteen.

703
00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:47,880
I mean it goes on it. There are several of

704
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,840
these passages in which you can find in many cases

705
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,079
all five or at least four of these coordinated in

706
00:41:55,239 --> 00:42:00,400
one seamless exposition of who Jesus is. So this is

707
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,360
not this five point model that Ed came up with

708
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,079
with the acronym hands. Is not something that's being superimposed

709
00:42:08,079 --> 00:42:12,840
on the Bible from outside. But it's an inductive understanding

710
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,920
of what the New Testament actually teaches about Jesus that

711
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:21,559
we find epitomize in several of the classic christological texts

712
00:42:21,639 --> 00:42:23,480
of the New Testament. I love that.

713
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 3: Well, you've already given us some examples of the honors

714
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,920
for age, like, for example, you talked about the parents

715
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,760
and how Jesus said, you know, to honor him above

716
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,119
all else and that would only be God's place. What

717
00:42:36,199 --> 00:42:39,679
about the a the attributes could you name in maybe

718
00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:42,800
an attributor to that Jesus displays that you can't just

719
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,320
explain away saying, oh, that's just a title or that's

720
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:46,840
just a role. Or something like that.

721
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,679
Speaker 2: Well, as I said mentioned earlier, the New Testament teaches

722
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,880
that all things came into existence in the created order

723
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,840
through the Sun, also called the logoss or word and

724
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:03,920
John one. So John one three, first Corinthians eight, six,

725
00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:09,519
Colossians one sixteen, Hebrews one two, Hebrews one ten. Also

726
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,679
quote Psalm one hundred and two about that in the beginning, Lord,

727
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,760
you made the heavens and the earth, and applies that

728
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,119
to Jesus. So the New Testament teaches that all things

729
00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:23,920
were created in through and for the Lord Jesus Christ,

730
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,239
for the son of God. It teaches us that I

731
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,159
mentioned this earlier, that he forgave people's sins on his

732
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,679
own prerogative as the divine son of Man. Jesus casts

733
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,719
out demons without going through any kind of prayer or rigmarole.

734
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,960
You know, he just says, get out of here on

735
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:50,440
his authority. Boo. Now, when the apostles cast out demons

736
00:43:50,559 --> 00:43:54,400
or performed healings, they would say, in the name of

737
00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:57,920
Jesus Christ, get out of here. Exactly in the name

738
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,920
of Jesus Christ, be healed. And Peter even went on

739
00:44:02,039 --> 00:44:05,599
and on about this in a kind of almost awkwardly

740
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,960
redundant fashion in Acts three, explaining it isn't anything about us,

741
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,199
but it's in the name of Jesus that these things

742
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,679
that this man was healed. So Jesus heals people in

743
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,119
a very different way than his own disciples healed people.

744
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,679
Jesus healed people without having to say, Father, if it

745
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,920
be your will, you know, we beg you to heal

746
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,400
this person. He never did anything like that. He just

747
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,800
healed people. Jesus said, and this is in more than

748
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,599
one gospel, that at the end of history, at the

749
00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:40,480
end of the age, he will be sitting on the

750
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,159
throne of judgment and determining your eternal destiny. That's a

751
00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:47,119
divine work. If there ever was one, whoever's going to

752
00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:49,400
be deciding where I spend eternity, That's the one I

753
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:51,599
want to make sure I'm reconciled with and is happy

754
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:54,159
with me. And you know that I'm on his good side.

755
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,199
Speaker 3: You know that seems reasonable.

756
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 2: I'll worship him because he does deserves it, because he's

757
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,480
in charge of the eternal future of every human being

758
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:08,199
that has ever lived or ever will live. That's, by

759
00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:13,920
the way, you can't do that effectively properly authentically if

760
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,119
you don't have the power to do it. You have

761
00:45:16,199 --> 00:45:18,119
to know people from the inside out. You have to

762
00:45:18,159 --> 00:45:19,960
know their hearts, you have to know their whole story.

763
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,159
You have to be able to make a fair, just

764
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,519
judgment about that person. And to do that you have

765
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:29,760
to have omniscience. So just being able to It's not

766
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,199
like Jesus is sitting up there on the throne and says, well,

767
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,199
you look like a nice enough person. You know, he

768
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,239
knows everyone inside and out. He knows. That's why Jesus

769
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,400
could take one look at this paralyzed man that got

770
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,960
lowered through the roof physically had never laid eyes on

771
00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:47,119
him before as far as we know, and could immediately

772
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:50,840
say to him, my son, your sins are forgiven. How

773
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:56,559
could he do? Who does he think he is? You know? Yeah,

774
00:45:56,599 --> 00:46:01,639
So Jesus just demonstrates divine ature also by the divine

775
00:46:01,679 --> 00:46:05,119
deeds that he performs. These are correlated facets of Jesus

776
00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:09,239
deity in scripture. Now, of course, Jesus isn't just God

777
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,360
or just divine. Jesus is also human. In the incarnation,

778
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:18,360
he took on human flesh, human weakness. Jesus fell asleep

779
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,360
in the boat before he performed that astonishing miracle, Jesus

780
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,960
ate and drank and walked and all these other things.

781
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:32,679
So Jesus experienced human limitations in his especially particularly in

782
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,320
his mortal life on the earth. Jesus is still human,

783
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,760
but he's resurrected and glorified. And to what extent those

784
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,079
limitations would apply now, we're not really clear, but they

785
00:46:45,119 --> 00:46:50,880
probably don't because Jesus is exalted and glorified above all creation.

786
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:55,440
So Jesus has these human attributes and these divine attributes

787
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,079
at the same time when he's on the earth that

788
00:46:57,119 --> 00:47:00,000
don't seem to fit together. I like to call Jesus

789
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,039
this is the paradoxical person. Everything about Jesus is a

790
00:47:04,039 --> 00:47:06,840
bit of a mystery, but that's what we see in

791
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,639
the Gospels. Jesus is puzzling to people during his own lifetime.

792
00:47:11,559 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: So you've made a case with this acronym of hands

793
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,840
and listed all of those things and shown that the

794
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,880
New Testament paints this picture because you're taking all these

795
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,199
different lines of evidence, if you want to call it,

796
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:28,559
that construct this And I'm wondering if maybe maybe skeptical

797
00:47:28,679 --> 00:47:32,280
response might be, well, you know, the New Testament letters

798
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,920
and things. These were all theological elaborations. Well, if you

799
00:47:36,039 --> 00:47:38,400
just took the Gospels, you wouldn't come to that conclusion.

800
00:47:38,639 --> 00:47:41,639
So I'm just wondering, can you get all the hands

801
00:47:43,199 --> 00:47:46,079
other the letters of the hands acronym Can you get

802
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:48,119
all of those from the gospels alone? Can you make

803
00:47:48,199 --> 00:47:49,280
the same case that way?

804
00:47:49,679 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 2: Well? Yes, In fact, I mentioned earlier that you get

805
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:57,360
all five points crowded together in a five verse span

806
00:47:57,639 --> 00:47:59,519
at the end of the Gospel of Matthew, the Great

807
00:47:59,559 --> 00:48:02,679
Commission passage in Matthew twenty eight sixteen to twenty. In

808
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,719
John twenty twenty eight, Thomas calls Jesus my Lord and

809
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,679
my God. There's two divine titles right there. Now. Of

810
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,079
course these are all these are after the resurrection. And

811
00:48:12,119 --> 00:48:15,760
I mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that Jesus

812
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,840
did not go around using divine names for himself in

813
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,159
a direct fashion, That did not generally call himself the

814
00:48:23,159 --> 00:48:25,320
son of God, although there's one place where that does

815
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:29,559
come up. Certainly never called himself God. But he left

816
00:48:29,599 --> 00:48:34,199
that to be understood or discovered through the process of

817
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,599
what he was doing on the earth in his sinless life,

818
00:48:37,639 --> 00:48:41,440
his miracles, his death, his resurrection. All of these things

819
00:48:41,519 --> 00:48:45,320
led to Thomas's confession and to the early Church understanding

820
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,199
these things to be true. Now, you know, some people,

821
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,800
including scholars, who are desperate to get around the idea

822
00:48:54,559 --> 00:48:57,880
that Jesus was divine, have tried to argue that this

823
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,639
was some kind of later development Christianity, that sometime maybe

824
00:49:03,079 --> 00:49:08,360
twenty thirty years or longer, after Jesus died and resurrected

825
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:13,159
from the dead, if they acknowledged that much. These skeptics

826
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:18,559
or people of other religious persuasions have suggested that Paul

827
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,320
or maybe somebody after Paul, came up with this idea

828
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,840
that Jesus was divine, that he was a God incarnate.

829
00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:29,920
The problem is is that worship and adoration and other

830
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,440
religious honors of Jesus were being given to him by

831
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,960
the very first believers, for example, from the very beginning,

832
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:40,920
and we just have I mean, there's several lines of

833
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:42,960
evidence to show that this is the case and nothing

834
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,000
to suggest otherwise. From the very beginning of the Christian movement,

835
00:49:46,039 --> 00:49:49,000
people were being baptized on the authority of Jesus Christ.

836
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,519
We're told this in Acts First Corinthians. Of course, Matthew

837
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:56,199
twenty eight people often question that, but I mean, we

838
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,480
have several lines of evidence that this is the case,

839
00:49:59,039 --> 00:50:02,840
and there's no realistic argument that this was a later development.

840
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,840
People were baptizing people as new believers from the very

841
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,320
beginning in Jesus' name. It was a confession of Jesus

842
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:17,559
as Lord, and that's quite clear. Paul refers to the

843
00:50:17,679 --> 00:50:22,480
honors being given by the Aramaic speaking disciples before him

844
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,719
when he quotes, for example, at the end of First

845
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:33,000
Corinthians in chapter sixteen Maranatha, that is an Aramaic expression.

846
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:38,239
It means O Lord come. It's a prayer to the

847
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:43,360
Lord Jesus asking him to come. Quote. Paul uses that

848
00:50:43,519 --> 00:50:48,079
in the Aramaic which often gets obscured in modern English versions.

849
00:50:48,639 --> 00:50:51,639
But it's in Aramaic, even though he's writing in Greek.

850
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:54,559
Why does he do that Because this was a routine

851
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:59,400
part of the liturgical expression of the first Christians that

852
00:50:59,559 --> 00:51:02,519
got to the Corinthians when they first were introduced to

853
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:07,760
the Gospel. So it goes back right to the beginning

854
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:12,800
in the first generation. Martin Heinckel, the German New Testament scholar,

855
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,079
made the observation that there was more development. If you

856
00:51:16,119 --> 00:51:19,920
want to use that term of Christology, of belief about

857
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,360
Christ in the first twenty years of Christianity than there

858
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:28,920
was in the subsequent six hundred WOW. Larry Hurtado called

859
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,800
this the Big Bang of religious devotion to Jesus as divine.

860
00:51:34,519 --> 00:51:40,119
It just emerges immediately upon the beginning of the Christian movement.

861
00:51:40,119 --> 00:51:45,159
It's not something that, as people often argue or claim

862
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,840
without really any evidence, that Paul or somebody else started

863
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,400
making this stuff up to try to get more gentiles

864
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,639
to believe in Jesus. That is not true. The Aramaic

865
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:59,639
speaking Jewish Christians thought of Jesus as divine. They prayed

866
00:51:59,639 --> 00:52:03,679
to him, they adored him, they loved him. It was

867
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,800
all about Jesus from the get go. So that's what

868
00:52:08,039 --> 00:52:10,519
these things are not terribly hard to understand. I think

869
00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:13,480
that regular people can follow at least some of this,

870
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,039
maybe with a little bit more explanation, but it's not

871
00:52:17,079 --> 00:52:20,159
too hard to understand that. The burden of proof is

872
00:52:20,199 --> 00:52:22,360
on those who are claiming that this wasn't what the

873
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,679
earliest Christians believed, or that Jesus didn't give them any

874
00:52:25,679 --> 00:52:28,320
grounds to do so. Now look, I'll be the first

875
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:33,000
to say if Jesus simply got crucified by the Romans.

876
00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:35,039
That was the end of it. Then I wouldn't have

877
00:52:35,119 --> 00:52:39,760
any basis for confidence that Jesus was who he said

878
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,559
he was and who the earliest Christian said he was.

879
00:52:42,679 --> 00:52:45,079
But the evidence that Jesus rose from the dead is

880
00:52:45,159 --> 00:52:51,400
overwhelming historical evidence, and that confirms it validates jesus claims

881
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:53,719
and the claims of the early Church as to who

882
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,079
Jesus was. It tells us that they're not just making

883
00:52:58,119 --> 00:53:02,840
something up about Jesus, but Jesus actually did something that

884
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,599
no other religious founder has ever even claimed to do,

885
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:10,159
which is he conquered death so that we might have

886
00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:13,880
eternal life. Amen. So this is not only just theologically

887
00:53:14,039 --> 00:53:20,119
provocative and profound, but it's also personally amazing and important

888
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,119
to each one of us to know that Jesus did

889
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:26,079
that so that we could have eternal life. That eternal

890
00:53:26,119 --> 00:53:28,480
life isn't just about oh, after you die, things will

891
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,960
be wonderful, but it's about a different quality of life

892
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,440
that starts now in a relationship with God the Father

893
00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:36,480
through Jesus Christ.

894
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: Well, well, you know, I knew that we're coming to

895
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:45,079
the end of our interview time here, and you know

896
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,159
I was thinking how how can we end this? And

897
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:50,360
you know, as you were talking there, I'm like, well

898
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,960
that is the perfect end to you know, the interview

899
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,280
just ending with a resurrection and our future hope. So,

900
00:53:56,079 --> 00:53:58,639
doctor Bowman, it's been a real pleasure and a privilege

901
00:53:58,679 --> 00:54:01,119
to speak with you today. Really love your work and

902
00:54:01,199 --> 00:54:04,440
appreciate it. Thank you for spending the time, and we're

903
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,599
going to point people to your resources and hope everybody

904
00:54:07,639 --> 00:54:09,079
can benefit from it as well.

905
00:54:09,199 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 2: I just really appreciate that. Thank you. I would like

906
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,599
if we can, you can put this in somewhere or

907
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:16,760
you can add it. I would like to let people

908
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,559
know that they can find out a lot more about

909
00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:25,719
the books from my personal author website, Robert Bowman dot net.

910
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:31,280
And they can also access hundreds of articles about Christianity

911
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,199
and other religions for free on our ministry website ir

912
00:54:36,079 --> 00:54:40,440
dot org. And that will help, including a lot of

913
00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:46,079
articles specifically about Jesus, about his life, his miracles, his

914
00:54:46,599 --> 00:54:50,920
death and resurrection, his deity, the doctri and the Trinity

915
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,119
and all that they can find lots and lots of

916
00:54:53,159 --> 00:54:56,400
free resources on our website IRR dot org.

917
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: Perfect well, we'll point people there in the show notes

918
00:55:00,159 --> 00:55:01,239
and thank you so much.

919
00:55:01,599 --> 00:55:03,639
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Good to chat with you guys.

920
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:05,800
I'd be honored if we've got a chance to do

921
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:06,239
it again.

922
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,320
Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Thanks for listening to the podcast. If

923
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,320
you have a question you'd like us to address, or

924
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,800
just a message for us feedback good or bad, you

925
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,480
can either email us at podcast at apologetics three fifteen

926
00:55:18,559 --> 00:55:21,480
dot com or leave a voice message for us using

927
00:55:21,559 --> 00:55:26,199
speak pipe. Just go to speakpipe dot com slash apologetics

928
00:55:26,199 --> 00:55:29,280
three fifteen to leave us a message. And remember, if

929
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,360
you include a ghostbuster's quote in your question, we guarantee

930
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,960
that we'll read it on the podcast. We also ensure

931
00:55:35,079 --> 00:55:38,400
up to fifty percent better quality answers. Also, if you've

932
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,599
enjoyed today's podcast, please leave a review in iTunes or

933
00:55:41,639 --> 00:55:44,639
the podcast platform in your choice, and please share this

934
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,440
episode with a friend if you've found it useful. Remember

935
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,760
you can find lots of Apologetics resources at apologeticspree fifteen

936
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,519
dot com, along with show notes for today's episode. Find

937
00:55:54,599 --> 00:55:58,880
Chad's apologetic stuff over at truthbomb apologetics. That's truthbomb dot

938
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,239
blogspot dot com. This has been Brian Aughton and Chad

939
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,639
Gross for the Apologetics three fifteen podcast and thanks for listening,