Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to a side Quest Bonus episode. My
Speaker 1: name is Dyl Muss and I've been joined by a
Speaker 1: very special guest here, Patrick Nisley of one Frog Games,
Speaker 1: here to talk about his game, Monochrom Heights. Patrick, We've
Speaker 1: been friends for many years. I've been on your podcast
Speaker 1: or ex podcast ish in Away a few times, and
Speaker 1: so it's great to have you over here. Finally, how
Speaker 1: are you feeling today?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. Thank you so much, Dylan
Speaker 2: for having me. I'm, like you said, I've known you
Speaker 2: for a while and I'm you know, really thankful that
Speaker 2: you asked me to come and do this, to you know,
Speaker 2: be a part of this. Thank you. M M.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, this is gonna be a fun episode really,
Speaker 1: all about just Monicroam Heights, the game that you've been making,
Speaker 1: and just you and your development and your history making
Speaker 1: games and that kind of fun stuff. I guess the
Speaker 1: origin story for people like me and you met a
Speaker 1: few years ago. You were part of these super Switchheads podcasts,
Speaker 1: and you're still involved in the community. You're still in
Speaker 1: the podcast every once in a while. You Hee's not
Speaker 1: a main host anymore, and I just love you guys
Speaker 1: podcast and I just took my shot. It's like, hey,
Speaker 1: it's kind of come on the podcast one time and
Speaker 1: you guys had me on there, and then you know,
Speaker 1: I was on there a couple more times. David has
Speaker 1: been over here on side Quest once, so it's fine.
Speaker 1: It's great to finally have you on here as well.
Speaker 1: So and then since then, like me and you just
Speaker 1: kind of talk about game development, checking in on things.
Speaker 1: We did a game gen earlier this year, which I
Speaker 1: shouted out many times on side Quest. So it's been
Speaker 1: a fun journey. Eve though we've never met in person,
Speaker 1: it feels like it feels like we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, and also just like
Speaker 2: a little life lesson there to shoot your shot, like
Speaker 2: reach out to people like I am not good at that,
Speaker 2: and anytime somebody like he tells that an anecdote like that,
Speaker 2: I'm always reminded of, like what's the worst people can say?
Speaker 1: No? You know, yeah, Usually it's just you just get ghosted,
Speaker 1: which is like it's fine, not just my life of no,
Speaker 1: but yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's let's talk about your
Speaker 1: game of it here. So Monokrom Heights is a platformer.
Speaker 1: I mean you've done, you've been at many, I guess conferences,
Speaker 1: these kinds of things you've shown off the game. You
Speaker 1: obviously wrote all the text on your Steam page, so
Speaker 1: I'm sure you have the elevator pitch down to a science.
Speaker 1: But do you want to give it here? What is
Speaker 1: Monochro Mice?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I say it is a tough as nails
Speaker 2: two D pixel art platformer, and it's a pure platformer.
Speaker 2: There's no action element like you think about like Mario
Speaker 2: shooting fireballs or damaging enemies. This is all about straight
Speaker 2: up platforming. And then the sort of more gamer pitch
Speaker 2: that I have for people that are more familiar with
Speaker 2: video games and not. You actually need to be pretty
Speaker 2: familiar with video games for what I just said too.
Speaker 2: But is it's Ikaruga meets Celeste with a Mega Man esthetic?
Speaker 2: Is the other elevator pitch for you?
Speaker 1: Right? Definitely has the Yeah, the Mega Man kind of
Speaker 1: slide to it. I feel like that's core to the
Speaker 1: to the movement of the game. Yeah, And I will
Speaker 1: say so, I've I've played the game before, but I
Speaker 1: actually haven't played the latest build, like the final newest build.
Speaker 1: The game, I guess we should say, is finally coming
Speaker 1: out here on October seventh of twenty twenty five. There's
Speaker 1: also a demo, which I was curious, folcause I know
Speaker 1: you put that demo up originally, maybe you're GOO a
Speaker 1: few months ago. Have you updated that or is that
Speaker 1: still like an older version of the game, or are
Speaker 1: you gonna take that down? What's up? What's up with
Speaker 1: the demo?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is definitely an internal debate. I had quite
Speaker 2: a bit around, but I think where I've landed is
Speaker 2: I'm going to update the demo to be parody with
Speaker 2: the game. It is not presently prior to release, and
Speaker 2: I'm not even sure if I'm gonna have time to
Speaker 2: do it right at release, but I hope too. But uh,
Speaker 2: if you're interested in the game and you're hesitant, it's
Speaker 2: a big demo to be to be like transparent, it's
Speaker 2: a good bit of the game, and I am going
Speaker 2: to I just came around to the idea of like
Speaker 2: why it feels wrong to pull it down like, which
Speaker 2: I definitely at first was like maybe I should. It's like,
Speaker 2: it's not that hard for me to the way I
Speaker 2: designed them. I really just have to take a few
Speaker 2: boxes unity and that's like and then I could push
Speaker 2: out the demo, so I'm like, you know what, I
Speaker 2: don't think it hurts. Yeah, really, you know, friends, hopefully
Speaker 2: it helps rather than hurts.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. So the game's out October seventh, which
Speaker 1: I mean, congratuate freaginglations it as hard as hell. As
Speaker 1: as hard as your game is, it is maybe even
Speaker 1: harder to make it. Well, it's definitely harder to make
Speaker 1: a game, so congratulations. Uh what trying to think? What
Speaker 1: year do you do? You remember the year month when
Speaker 1: you when you started this thing in proper?
Speaker 2: I do, actually, So it's been about three and a
Speaker 2: half years since I did the game jam that it
Speaker 2: came out of, So I can't remember exactly the day,
Speaker 2: but it was sometime around late April early May of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two that I did a game jam where
Speaker 2: we made it a game that is essentially this but
Speaker 2: way shitty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess the main differentiation between your
Speaker 1: game and other platformers is the phasing mechanic, where there
Speaker 1: are platforms and obstacles that are either black or white,
Speaker 1: and then you like swap the color of your character
Speaker 1: so that you, I guess what's the word you would
Speaker 1: do is like interact or collide with those kind of
Speaker 1: opposite colors. So it was that part of the game
Speaker 1: jam was that initial premise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I wanted to make a platformer, and the
Speaker 2: game jam team was just me, my friend who was
Speaker 2: by Bent Neatley, who does the music and continues to
Speaker 2: did the music for the whole release. And then a
Speaker 2: third fellow who I could just kind of knew through
Speaker 2: doing a few game jams and haven't really kept up
Speaker 2: much with his name's ever, and he actually is the
Speaker 2: one that pitched that idea. He was like the theme
Speaker 2: for that game jam was looping, which I think we
Speaker 2: were thinking of like looping through colors. It actually in
Speaker 2: the game jam, there's three colors that you rotate between.
Speaker 2: It's black, white, and gray, which is way too hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it did it loop like like in that cycle
Speaker 1: or could you choose like okay, I choose.
Speaker 2: To go which direction? I think I don't even remember.
Speaker 1: Actually that almost sounds like playing a rhythm game at
Speaker 1: the same time as playing like a platform.
Speaker 2: Or like just swimming between two colors is hard enough.
Speaker 2: And you know, when I went to make the full game,
Speaker 2: I definitely thought about including that third color as some
Speaker 2: extra challenge or something, but I just eventually was like,
Speaker 2: it's I've made this way hard enough without adding yeah,
Speaker 2: more more things.
Speaker 1: You know. So and that was in Unity as well,
Speaker 1: that game Jam.
Speaker 2: That's correct? Yeah? Is it?
Speaker 1: Is it the same file that you built off of
Speaker 1: or did you start a new product?
Speaker 2: But the I did prototype it once or twice after
Speaker 2: after the game jam to try to kind of figure
Speaker 2: out the physics better because I was pretty green, and
Speaker 2: I mean I still am, but I've learned so much
Speaker 2: over the last three years. That first game jam is
Speaker 2: just super floaty, you know what I mean. And I've
Speaker 2: like since then learned, oh real or it's not real physics.
Speaker 2: It's fake video game physics to kind of you know,
Speaker 2: like slam down when you're coming down and that sort
Speaker 2: of thing feels better, and that's how most platformers work.
Speaker 2: So it took me a few prototypes to kind of
Speaker 2: land in the general direction. But the file, the file
Speaker 2: that the final game really is is called like November
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two or something like that. So that's where
Speaker 2: I started the project. That a few more actual Unity projects.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, gotcha, that's cool. Yeah, I uh like, how
Speaker 1: how do you finally get to the point because for
Speaker 1: me this was such a harder thing too, of like
Speaker 1: the last few months potion problem, All right, what am
Speaker 1: I cutting? I'd need to finish this thing right now?
Speaker 1: So how how are you? Because I haven't checked in
Speaker 1: with you in like a few months, and I feel
Speaker 1: like it sounded like, oh, you're raimed for the end
Speaker 1: of this year, but like, I don't know, might slip
Speaker 1: next year again, we'll see. So tell me about like
Speaker 1: these last couple months for you and how you've kind
Speaker 1: of I don't know if you've had to make any
Speaker 1: big cuts or if you really just felt like, oh,
Speaker 1: the game's in a really good place now, I don't
Speaker 1: need any more worlds Like how have you come to
Speaker 1: the decision of finally hit the button on October seventh?
Speaker 1: Which is a very satisfying button to hit, I'll say
Speaker 1: on Steam. I mean, I guess you've kind of done
Speaker 1: know what the demo thing when you've released that too,
Speaker 1: But it feels.
Speaker 2: Good, not the same. Yeah, I look forward to sharing
Speaker 2: that feeling, but it's coming soon. But yeah, I think
Speaker 2: I'll be honest, I think I just lost the thread. Well,
Speaker 2: can you remind me of the question I got distracted
Speaker 2: by the button pushing and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like in the last couple months, what has
Speaker 1: led you to the realization of like, okay, the game
Speaker 1: is finally ready to go?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So I think, like any creative project, I
Speaker 2: just saw this Leonardo da Vinci quote somewhere else, like
Speaker 2: literally ten or thirty minutes ago that like a creative
Speaker 2: project is never done, it's just abandoned or whatever that
Speaker 2: I don't even know if DaVinci really said that. It's
Speaker 2: the internet, you know what I mean, Like I believe
Speaker 2: it people he spoke Italian anyway, So I think I
Speaker 2: kind of just was like, I have to be done
Speaker 2: with this thing this year. We're coming up on three
Speaker 2: and a half years, like I think November. I don't
Speaker 2: even know. I can't do the math in my head.
Speaker 2: I am at about three and a half years. It's
Speaker 2: like I couldnot let this drag into the next year.
Speaker 2: I mean I might have to, like I think I
Speaker 2: told you, but I was like, I don't want to.
Speaker 2: And at some point I just looked at what I
Speaker 2: had and I was like, God, this is much more done.
Speaker 2: Like maybe you can relate to this. But there have
Speaker 2: been periods of time where I've had to kind of
Speaker 2: do a lot of life stuff, like my real job
Speaker 2: or my day job is busy, this or that. And
Speaker 2: I came to a period where I had a little
Speaker 2: more time to look at it, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I think I can I think I can do this
Speaker 2: by fall, and I'm gonna look at a specific time
Speaker 2: and for me, that was I think the end of
Speaker 2: August and if if at the end of August I
Speaker 2: am good, I'm going to release it and early to
Speaker 2: mid October, like if I feel like I can do it,
Speaker 2: if i feel like I'm happy with where right that
Speaker 2: such that even if it went out now it would
Speaker 2: be okay or you know what I mean. And then
Speaker 2: after that, I was like, Okay, that's the time period
Speaker 2: I think I can do it. And then I'm like,
Speaker 2: oh crap. Steam has an autumn sale from yeah, October
Speaker 2: whatever until October sixth, and then they have next Fest
Speaker 2: from October thirteenth through this. I'm like, hmm, well, I
Speaker 2: think it's got to go right there.
Speaker 1: Smart, Yeah, that makes sense. So is the last couple
Speaker 1: months then, like since that August deadline that you said forself,
Speaker 1: like no more new content, it's just like polishing fixing
Speaker 1: bugs at that point, and then like I guess more
Speaker 1: marketing stuff at that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's for me, I realized the game
Speaker 2: is in pretty good shape. It's like just a lot
Speaker 2: of polish, and like I think, you know, we talked
Speaker 2: a lot about the gameplay, but I had this game
Speaker 2: also has a story and and cut scenes. I mean,
Speaker 2: maybe it feels almost wrong to call them cut scenes
Speaker 2: because they are literally just two D pixel art sprites
Speaker 2: that are you know, and then dialogue boxes. But but
Speaker 2: it's I think that's yeah, but there are these cut scenes,
Speaker 2: and for me, they're really important. And and I think
Speaker 2: that stuff was a little rougher still, and and honestly,
Speaker 2: there's still a few things that I'm trying to like
Speaker 2: squeeze like in, especially for the endings right now, Like wow,
Speaker 2: I think I'm really happy with the endings, but like
Speaker 2: if I can get in and and and maybe make
Speaker 2: this a different animation or whatever, So again, I kind
Speaker 2: of like just decided it has to be this date.
Speaker 2: And yeah, and so it's mostly little stuff, but there's
Speaker 2: a lot of little stuff. And then like it's just
Speaker 2: like I even now I'm like, oh crap, I found
Speaker 2: one I don't know about you, but I could looking back.
Speaker 2: There's so many design decisions I've made that are like,
Speaker 2: we're short term gain at the expense of long term pain.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: It's like, for example, I have these NPCs that you
Speaker 2: can talk to, and I wrote tons of dialogue for them,
Speaker 2: and I'm really happy about that. But they have different colors.
Speaker 2: Some of them are black and some of them are white,
Speaker 2: and some of them have two eyes and some of
Speaker 2: them have one eye. And so I have this code
Speaker 2: that I just like hard coded in different places for
Speaker 2: the sprite is this way, and they're like, they're like,
Speaker 2: Portrait is this way, and I wish I had just
Speaker 2: one of those things speak to the other rather than
Speaker 2: hard coding them in two places.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, every once in a while, I'm playing
Speaker 2: through the game, like, oh crap, that's a one eyed bot.
Speaker 2: But is you know portrait is two eyes. Yeah, let
Speaker 2: me re export this whole project to fix that one,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's probably just gonna be the
Speaker 1: case for anyone in our position, where like we've done
Speaker 1: some game jams, done like a little bit here there,
Speaker 1: but like this kind of being how we're learning game development.
Speaker 1: Through this, you know, this final first full game. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's so many things that's like, oh, yeah, I could
Speaker 1: have been now that I am better at just the
Speaker 1: basics of coding, Oh, that could have been so much
Speaker 1: more efficient that like what is hundreds of lines of
Speaker 1: code could have been like twenty now that I know
Speaker 1: how this how.
Speaker 2: This stuff had one of those places be the definition
Speaker 2: of that a lot, and then the other one just
Speaker 2: pulls from it. But instead I'm you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like it's I.
Speaker 1: Mean, I don't even think I really knew what scripts
Speaker 1: were until like deep into my game, and that is
Speaker 1: such a helpful thing. But man, I may meant I
Speaker 1: was typing and copy pasting things over and over again.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's kind of how it goes. Yeah, you've
Speaker 1: done a lot of game jams. Now I'm curious how, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, do you feel like that was helping
Speaker 1: you kind of break up the monotony or like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, if you're ever just sometimes you're in a
Speaker 1: rut where it's like a couple months we're like, man,
Speaker 1: this freaking bug is annoying me, or I just am
Speaker 1: feeling a little lost. I don't know, did you feel
Speaker 1: like that helped you like still stretch that muscle, but
Speaker 1: at least like put your mind in a different place.
Speaker 1: And also like, okay, I have a shorter time frame here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what it is, but I really
Speaker 2: enjoy doing game jams. But I think I've chosen good
Speaker 2: times to do them. I've gotten really good at being like, oh,
Speaker 2: this would be a really good time for me to
Speaker 2: do a game jam, and I am just like so focused,
Speaker 2: like when we did the Chosen One. Part of the
Speaker 2: reason I did that at that specific time and that
Speaker 2: specific game jam was my wife was out of town
Speaker 2: and my son, who did it with us, was like,
Speaker 2: had you know, he and I just had a lot
Speaker 2: of time. I didn't have a lot of work, and
Speaker 2: so it was like, with my wife out of town,
Speaker 2: that's all we'll do, you know what I mean? And
Speaker 2: and yeah, I think it. I did that one also selfishly,
Speaker 2: partly because I was like, if I get in that
Speaker 2: mode of just like finishing and fixing and just doing
Speaker 2: the things, maybe I can take that energy into finishing
Speaker 2: this project. And also I do think it is a
Speaker 2: little bit of like a palette cleanser and a reminder
Speaker 2: of why oh, this is why it's fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those generating those new ideas for the first time
Speaker 1: is yeah, extremely exciting. I want to ask you about that. Actually, So,
Speaker 1: your your son is obviously like a big into game development.
Speaker 1: Now he's making all sorts of stuff. I think it
Speaker 1: started with game builder garage. Maybe I don't know if
Speaker 1: that was the first thing he did, but I remember
Speaker 1: you talking about that on Switchheads, and now he's doing
Speaker 1: stuff and obviously we worked with him on Chosen One,
Speaker 1: and then I've followed him on Itch and I see
Speaker 1: just like posting asset packs and all this stuff. So
Speaker 1: I'm curious because obviously, I mean, he was quite a
Speaker 1: bit younger than he is now obviously when you started
Speaker 1: this problem. But has he had an influence at all,
Speaker 1: like obviously play testing giving you like hey Dad, you
Speaker 1: should change this thing, or this doesn't make sense, or
Speaker 1: I don't know any anything that's come from him. I'm curious.
Speaker 2: Well, this isn't exactly what you're asking, but I love
Speaker 2: this story and so I'm gonna share it.
Speaker 1: Please do.
Speaker 2: The story itself has a big origin point related to him.
Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna tell this story real quick, and
Speaker 2: then maybe I can also answer exactly more kind of
Speaker 2: what you're saying, but so backing up like I guess
Speaker 2: he's ten, so backing up approximately ten years ago, maybe
Speaker 2: even more because he's almost eleven. When he was an infant,
Speaker 2: he didn't sleep very well, and I was on night
Speaker 2: duty pretty much, so I would try to get him
Speaker 2: back to sleep. And that was a really rough period
Speaker 2: of time, and I spent a lot of time in
Speaker 2: a rocking chair in his room at this apartment we
Speaker 2: lived in, just looking at these paper robots because we
Speaker 2: had done sort of a sci fi theme for his
Speaker 2: room and my and for his like baby shower. I
Speaker 2: think it was that my brother and my sister in
Speaker 2: law made these little paper robots as decorations and we
Speaker 2: hung them in his room. I just sat there staring
Speaker 2: at them, and I came up with names for them,
Speaker 2: and then I came up with backstories for them, and
Speaker 2: then I came up with there on this team, and
Speaker 2: then this happened, and you know what I mean, just
Speaker 2: like way more because that's all I could do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I was just sitting there olding this kid.
Speaker 1: Sorry, is this weaving into like you're telling him like
Speaker 1: a bedtime story or you're just doing this just.
Speaker 2: Me in my head because he was not even one,
Speaker 2: you know, he was just a baby, and I took
Speaker 2: all those ideas and I thought, you know, I wrote
Speaker 2: eventually I was like, maybe I'm gonna do something with these,
Speaker 2: and that's where the story for this game is from.
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: But to answer your exact question, I mean, he has
Speaker 2: been one of my biggest champions. Like I have a
Speaker 2: little artifact back here, which given embarrassingly, is from a
Speaker 2: few years ago, because that's where it's like, yeah, this
Speaker 2: has taken me so long. Where he's like in his school,
Speaker 2: like they had like what are the things you want
Speaker 2: or hope for? You know, and he wrote like, I
Speaker 2: hope my dad's game is successful.
Speaker 1: That is so cute.
Speaker 2: I know, right and so and yeah, and as he's
Speaker 2: gotten better at stuff, he can talk really intelligently now,
Speaker 2: Like I don't to age ten. I was playing as
Speaker 2: many or more video games than him, but he knows
Speaker 2: what hit boxes and colliders and you know, the collisions
Speaker 2: and like like he can just talk about it because
Speaker 2: he's knows how to do it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So now I actually want to go back
Speaker 1: to the story you shared of the is happy who's
Speaker 1: a protagonist of Monocram Heights, and then the other characters
Speaker 1: that you have in there, which I don't know their
Speaker 1: names at the moment, but are those characters that came
Speaker 1: from that that those origin stories ten years ago? Then?
Speaker 1: Is Happy one of those original feats?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's so cool. This little string of paper
Speaker 2: robots that my family made had five robots on it.
Speaker 2: And I don't want to really spoil because I actually
Speaker 2: think the story in the game is slowly revealed in
Speaker 2: a certain way. I don't want to spoil it too much.
Speaker 2: But the major five characters, there's really three major characters,
Speaker 2: but then there you'll see some other side ones. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they are those those five robots.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, that was something that when I saw
Speaker 1: the most recent trailer for the game, because now that
Speaker 1: you have your release day of the new trailer up there,
Speaker 1: and I was seeing like characters and little cut scenes
Speaker 1: and like backgrounds and stuff that I haven't seen before
Speaker 1: in the versions that I played. I was getting very
Speaker 1: excited for that because you could talk to NPCs in
Speaker 1: the versions I've played before, but yeah, I haven't seen
Speaker 1: what that looks like now, And yeah, I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you more about that too, because I know environmentalism
Speaker 1: is like a big thing for you, and that's one
Speaker 1: of the I don't know, one of the themes I
Speaker 1: guess you want to tackle here. But without going into
Speaker 1: spoilers of like revealing things, curious, how how you just
Speaker 1: implemented story into a game like this at all? Because
Speaker 1: I feel like that you know, you probably had just
Speaker 1: moving around jumping platforming for a long time before that
Speaker 1: stuff really got implemented in there. So how did that
Speaker 1: process go for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I want to shout out real quickly to Andrea Blythe,
Speaker 2: who is a woman that I hired, a friend of
Speaker 2: mine that I hired to help out with the narrative
Speaker 2: and with writing. When I was kind of like this
Speaker 2: is the gameplay, you know, it's solid, I want the
Speaker 2: story to be something, she came in and helped me
Speaker 2: kind of take all these ideas I had and like
Speaker 2: come up with some different pitches for how we could
Speaker 2: take it. And I actually took some of her pitches
Speaker 2: and combined them and then we went went in that direction.
Speaker 2: I think, I really, I mean, I consider myself a
Speaker 2: writer and so it was like really important to me
Speaker 2: any game I make has a story and has dialogue,
Speaker 2: and I'm maybe I'm maybe too much because I love
Speaker 2: to put in lots of words and stuff. But and
Speaker 2: you know, you think about platformers aren't typically right, like
Speaker 2: that's not normal. Like maybe Celeste kind of changed that,
Speaker 2: yeah a little bit, but Mario and stuff is just
Speaker 2: like there's a princess and you got a saver. You know,
Speaker 2: there's not even we don't.
Speaker 1: Know now that we've got a movie. Now there's a
Speaker 1: lot of dialogue, but that's deviating from where we started.
Speaker 2: So I think I wanted to kind of take what
Speaker 2: Celeste did and and you know, continue. And so there
Speaker 2: is NPC's on the levels that you can completely optionally
Speaker 2: talk to like you don't have. Actually at the very beginning,
Speaker 2: it kind of railroads you into talking the ones that
Speaker 2: tell you how to play the game, but otherwise it's
Speaker 2: all optional. And then I have the game broken into
Speaker 2: what I'm calling zones. You can use the word world.
Speaker 2: I call them zones. And in each zone there is
Speaker 2: a story beat, which is I don't think this is
Speaker 2: a spoiler. They are all flashbacks, but there are things
Speaker 2: that happen in the present moment as well, and in
Speaker 2: the present moment you have dialogue choices, and I the
Speaker 2: choices do matter. I will say there are cool they
Speaker 2: will send you in a certain.
Speaker 1: Path.
Speaker 2: There are multiple endings depending on your dialogue tradings.
Speaker 1: That's really cool. So would you have to like start
Speaker 1: the game from zero to experience those different endings then?
Speaker 1: Or can you kind of like I'm gonna start from
Speaker 1: zone three now and then like pick different things right there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I might need to if enough people like care, right,
Speaker 2: then I might have to come up with some way
Speaker 2: to end game allow you to do that you would
Speaker 2: without giving too much away. It's hard for me to
Speaker 2: decide what to say here.
Speaker 1: You don't have to reveal anything if you don't want to.
Speaker 2: It's funny though, Like, no, I think people care about
Speaker 2: this though, right, like because some people are like number one.
Speaker 2: I will say that there's no right or wrong ending,
Speaker 2: like you know, sometimes I feel like in games like
Speaker 2: you get the bad ending, or you get the good ending,
Speaker 2: or you get the non canon ending. There are three endings,
Speaker 2: and I think they are all.
Speaker 1: Appropriate like satisfying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'd like to think at least though, I'd
Speaker 2: be curious to what people say because honestly, like I
Speaker 2: did a lot of play testing on the gameplay, but
Speaker 2: the story has always been really close to me, and
Speaker 2: Andrey and I have worked on it together, but like
Speaker 2: I haven't like user tested the story, yeah, because I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, what if people don't like it, I like it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, especially what you're saying there of there's a lot
Speaker 1: of dialogue that is optional. I mean, that's going to
Speaker 1: be extremely hard to play test any because you don't know, like, okay,
Speaker 1: exactly what lines of dialogue did you see unless you
Speaker 1: like build it into the game where you can, like,
Speaker 1: you know, get a file export that tells you, like
Speaker 1: exactly what people saw. But even then you don't know
Speaker 1: if they actually write it or like processed it. So
Speaker 1: that's a that's a tricky thing, but that is that
Speaker 1: is exciting. But it is a funny thing too. You
Speaker 1: mentioned there of like bigger games like huge triple as
Speaker 1: that have, you know, the day they come out, there's
Speaker 1: already an IGN guide that tells you how to do
Speaker 1: all the different endings and stuff, but that you don't
Speaker 1: necessarily have that luxury for you know, a smaller indie
Speaker 1: games not gonna necessarily have, you know, all the big
Speaker 1: news sites with their guides on how to do all
Speaker 1: these different endings. So but I think that as the
Speaker 1: mystery too, Like people are gonna have to find that
Speaker 1: stuff out for themselves unless you put it into the
Speaker 1: game and like an actual way that people can track
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 2: Right, And if you if you're out there listening to
Speaker 2: this and that's important to you, you can message me.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you. I guess how to get what endings.
Speaker 2: It's kind of obvious. I think, like I tried to
Speaker 2: make it so that like it's you can pick up
Speaker 2: on it, if that, If that makes any sense, I'm
Speaker 2: not trying to be vague. But I also think that
Speaker 2: the story is cool part to explore and experience without
Speaker 2: knowing much. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm very excited to experience that part of it,
Speaker 1: because I that's not really what I was playtesting when
Speaker 1: I played the game year or two ago. Going back
Speaker 1: to some gameplay a little bit. One thing I want
Speaker 1: to ask you about is I think the verticality of
Speaker 1: this game is really interesting a novel and that a
Speaker 1: lot of games do have, like you know, you're kind
Speaker 1: of going up and up and up, but I feel
Speaker 1: like in this game, you're you know, going horizontally for
Speaker 1: a bit, whether that's right or left, and then you
Speaker 1: go just to tine a bit up a few platforms up,
Speaker 1: and then you start going the opposite direction. It makes
Speaker 1: kind of like an S shape, but I feel like
Speaker 1: there isn't like some huge big divider between those layers.
Speaker 1: So you can often you know, be going for a
Speaker 1: tricky jump fall and then you'll fall to like a
Speaker 1: previous part of the level. Now maybe you've got a
Speaker 1: checkpoint you can just you know, zip back up that
Speaker 1: next one. And then sometimes you also use that to like, Okay,
Speaker 1: now I'm gonna jump down and grab a collectible that
Speaker 1: I couldn't reach before, but now I could. But I
Speaker 1: think that's such a fascinating thing to me, is like
Speaker 1: how close those layers are, and it makes the levels
Speaker 1: feel like super dense and compact in a really interesting way.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious if that's something that you kind of planned,
Speaker 1: if you were going for, or if it just kind
Speaker 1: of happened with the level design and then you kind
Speaker 1: of just obviously built off of it as you saw
Speaker 1: that that was kind of how it was going to
Speaker 1: work out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally just happened. I think it happened for two
Speaker 2: different reasons, one of which is that it's really interesting.
Speaker 2: If it was just a horizontal platformer, it would be fine,
Speaker 2: but with the phasing the color swapping mechanic, it's almost
Speaker 2: more interesting if you have to go through things right,
Speaker 2: and you have to like kind of pass through vertically,
Speaker 2: because if it's just horizontal, we can put you know,
Speaker 2: barriers and things that you might have to pass between.
Speaker 2: But that kind of it just sort of naturally lended
Speaker 2: itself towards going up because of that, And I don't
Speaker 2: remember if that came first. I don't remember even honestly,
Speaker 2: don't remember how it was in the game Jam, how
Speaker 2: it became a little bit more vertical, and then I
Speaker 2: really leaned into it with the full game. But simultaneously
Speaker 2: with Bent Neatly, who did the music, we came up
Speaker 2: with this idea of as you climb, and this got
Speaker 2: abandoned in the full game, but as you climb in
Speaker 2: the game Jam, the music evolves, so like he had
Speaker 2: a base just like drum track that you hear at
Speaker 2: the bottom, and then you know, as you got to
Speaker 2: a certain height, the bass would kick in, okay, and
Speaker 2: then as you got to another height, you know, the
Speaker 2: synth would or whatever like and and so, and that
Speaker 2: added a lot and you know, we definitely considered keeping that,
Speaker 2: but it was like that's a lot of work for
Speaker 2: a bunch of levels, right, to make every song have
Speaker 2: different tracks that all looked that kind of come in
Speaker 2: and out. And also it was kind of predicated on
Speaker 2: the game jam where you would often fall and there
Speaker 2: were no checkpoints, you know what I mean, the music
Speaker 2: would go back to just the drum, like no, I
Speaker 2: fell down to the bottom, which was not very user friendly,
Speaker 2: but was you know, is like extra painful, right, and
Speaker 2: so yeah, like it's like, well, we gotta have checkpoints
Speaker 2: and we gotta just have the music good music. That
Speaker 2: doesn't that change.
Speaker 1: That's a fun thing that can happen to because of
Speaker 1: the phase mechanic. Like sometimes, as I said, you're going
Speaker 1: for that typical jump, you fall a layer, but if
Speaker 1: your color that you have, if you don't have the
Speaker 1: correct color selected, you might just keep falling and falling
Speaker 1: and tumbling all the way down. Yeah, and obviously once
Speaker 1: again you have a checkpoint somewhere that'll help you out.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, I like that just you kind
Speaker 1: of remember like, oh, yeah, I remember ten minutes ago
Speaker 1: and I was stuck on this part. I like fell
Speaker 1: back there for a moment, a little bit of nostalgia
Speaker 1: or something. But it's it's been fun for me, like
Speaker 1: in playing the different versions and just like really didn't
Speaker 1: treating it as like a speed run game now, like
Speaker 1: on the earlier levels that I have played a couple
Speaker 1: of times. Now, maybe they've had little variations here there,
Speaker 1: but even just like knowing those mechanics is the first
Speaker 1: time you play it, it is quite the like mind
Speaker 1: to right of just trying to get those phasing down.
Speaker 1: So that's also something I'm curious about. Like obviously the
Speaker 1: like the color of your character changes, but I feel
Speaker 1: like that's also something as the developer, you could get
Speaker 1: so in the weeds of you're so used to it.
Speaker 1: But I don't know how much did you have to
Speaker 1: really work on that or like adjust things just to
Speaker 1: make sure people could really grasp I think.
Speaker 2: It is really a weird mechanic, even for people who
Speaker 2: are really good at video games at first, right, Like
Speaker 2: I've definitely at conventions and with friends who play tested it,
Speaker 2: seen the gamut of people who get it quickly or
Speaker 2: don't you know what I mean. And I think also
Speaker 2: a lot of times people who have more experience with
Speaker 2: platformers and that sort of thing tend to get it faster,
Speaker 2: but even people who are decently experienced sometimes and because
Speaker 2: it is just different, you have you have to start
Speaker 2: thinking about the space a little bit differently, right, the
Speaker 2: virtual space, that is. But yeah, I think pretty instantly,
Speaker 2: you know, the game Jam that we came out of
Speaker 2: was also themed around black and white, So okay, I
Speaker 2: I think it was just always black and white, right,
Speaker 2: and then, like I said, originally gray as well, but
Speaker 2: so I just took that forward. There was a brief
Speaker 2: moment where I questioned it, like could it be purple
Speaker 2: and green or whatever? Would that be more readable or whatever?
Speaker 2: And I think I just decided to know, like I'm
Speaker 2: just going to stick with this. But the tricky things
Speaker 2: were like a little bit of feedback early on, of
Speaker 2: like I put a white outline on the black guy
Speaker 2: and a black outline on the white version of him,
Speaker 2: and sometimes some people found that a little confusing. And
Speaker 2: then when I had an artist early on draw some
Speaker 2: some platforms and stuff, a lot of artists, i mean
Speaker 2: pixel art in general, are not going to use hard
Speaker 2: black and white, right, like they're they're going to use
Speaker 2: softer tones of white. And I kept the first few
Speaker 2: times you made platforms, I was like, it needs to
Speaker 2: be more white. It needs to read more white. That
Speaker 2: reads great, And he'd be like, well, that's white, you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, no, it needs to be like f
Speaker 2: f f f white, you know what I mean. Like
Speaker 2: and but I but I also, like, was pretty a
Speaker 2: novice to pixelart myself at the time, so I see
Speaker 2: their point, and I think we kind of ended up
Speaker 2: meeting the mill because now I would be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we don't want it to be too white. That's that's
Speaker 2: bright and harsh, you know. So those are some of
Speaker 2: the challenges of that. And I think for some people
Speaker 2: it is just too hard and too confusing. Like, I mean,
Speaker 2: this is not a game for everybody. That's something I
Speaker 2: decided pretty early on too.
Speaker 1: Right, you got to be into platformers to want to
Speaker 1: sign up for it in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I mean you might think about this too,
Speaker 2: making games right where you're like I do, I'm not
Speaker 2: trying to make a game for everybody, because those games
Speaker 2: exist and they're already doing well, and I'm not gonna
Speaker 2: be able to market a game for everybody, right, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's easier when you're in a position like us to
Speaker 2: to try to find a smaller niche or to lean
Speaker 2: into that a little bit. I think, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, going back to the art, because I see
Speaker 1: you all the time on discord aceprites opened ninety ninety
Speaker 1: percent of the day. I feel like when I look
Speaker 1: at your when I see your name there, what was it?
Speaker 1: Because you obviously mentioned the music, and you had some
Speaker 1: help with the writing and story, and obviously I think,
Speaker 1: as as far as I know, you've done like all
Speaker 1: the coding for the game, like all the design and
Speaker 1: level design and stuff. But how about the art. What's
Speaker 1: the balance on that? Like how much of it have
Speaker 1: you done versus your artists there?
Speaker 2: Well, I did actually hire a couple of people to
Speaker 2: help with programming it first too. When I first started,
Speaker 2: I wasn't very good, and I got a couple of
Speaker 2: lessons from somebody who helped write some code, which I'm
Speaker 2: not even sure if it's really in the game anymore,
Speaker 2: but like I still credit him because it did, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. And then I did hire some
Speaker 2: somebody else to help me fix one problem that I
Speaker 2: was really stuck on.
Speaker 1: What's that? Can you share what that is? That problem?
Speaker 2: Though? Yeah, platforms. What's really funny is that, like I've
Speaker 2: now dabbled in GOODO and moving platforms. In GOODO, they
Speaker 2: just work. I know how to make them work. They
Speaker 2: work great with with depending on what you're doing and using,
Speaker 2: at least what my limited GIDO experience, probably I would
Speaker 2: run into this same problem there once. I'm like, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to write custom physics and stuff, but in unity,
Speaker 2: I just ran into this problem that, like every tutorial
Speaker 2: I found worked a little bit but caused this problem.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not answering your question about art now,
Speaker 2: but I'm I'm talking about programming. But like another thing
Speaker 2: that really was hard and is still hard is the
Speaker 2: darn black and white thing. Like half of my stuff
Speaker 2: has to turn off, you know, on a frame and
Speaker 2: how the stuff has to turn on, and that causes
Speaker 2: so many weird issues.
Speaker 1: Like hmm, yeah to the game ever, like stutter when
Speaker 1: you would do that because it's so many things triggering
Speaker 1: at once.
Speaker 2: No, but it's more like, oh crap, I need that
Speaker 2: to cannonball to explode. But so I can't turn off
Speaker 2: its collider because it needs to know that it's hitting
Speaker 2: the wall, but it can't collide with the player. So
Speaker 2: I need to really think about how to write all
Speaker 2: these I mean, it's not even that complicated. It's just
Speaker 2: stuff that when you're a beginner is like extra complicated.
Speaker 1: Right, There's like different endings to all these props in
Speaker 1: the world. It's like what color they art when they
Speaker 1: finish it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But to go back to the art, yeah, I
Speaker 2: was I was not very good at pixel art, but
Speaker 2: I was trying to learn when the game started, and
Speaker 2: so I hired a couple of people to do art.
Speaker 2: You know. I sometimes do a really rough version of
Speaker 2: it and send it to them, and then they would
Speaker 2: improve on it. And then I mean I almost every
Speaker 2: piece of art, with the exception of the story backgrounds,
Speaker 2: I have touched up as I've gotten better, and as
Speaker 2: I've looked at the art and been like, oh, they
Speaker 2: left a stray pixel here, you know, sometimes years later
Speaker 2: realizing that too, right, like left I stared at it.
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know how I missed that. That
Speaker 2: frame of animation has you know, the leg wrong or whatever.
Speaker 2: But I'm seeing it now. So, and I've gotten a
Speaker 2: lot better. And at this point, like I was telling you,
Speaker 2: I kind of saved some of the endings and story
Speaker 2: stuff till the end. I was like, I now can
Speaker 2: do those animation Whereas like I need a new animation
Speaker 2: for the ending. I knew I needed like ten and
Speaker 2: I was like, do I need to hire somebody? I'm like,
Speaker 2: not anymore. And now I've got it. I got it great.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not trying to be like, Ooh, I'm
Speaker 2: the best pixel artist, because I'm not, But like I
Speaker 2: think I can confidently take the existing assets and like
Speaker 2: make a new animation and stuff like that, and that's
Speaker 2: a big step for me because I've gotten a lot
Speaker 2: better at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I'm assume that most of
Speaker 1: these people that you worked with or hired weren't really
Speaker 1: communicating with each other. It's more just like you kind
Speaker 1: of being the mastermind of it, the puppeteers, so to speak.
Speaker 1: And I feel like with the game gen that we did,
Speaker 1: like I feel like you were such a great leader
Speaker 1: in that and you know there's four other people, but
Speaker 1: I feel like you just got everyone together and all
Speaker 1: that worked really well together. Great communicator, very open feedback
Speaker 1: and all that stuff too. Do you have a favorite
Speaker 1: thing though, like when you're working on the game, is
Speaker 1: or a favorite part for you?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Is it level designed? Do you actually find that you
Speaker 1: love the coding? Like, what is your favorite part?
Speaker 2: Level design? You said at first? Yeah, I think, like
Speaker 2: like I said, when you said, oh, what have I done?
Speaker 1: Just me?
Speaker 2: And I mean, I guess I haven't really done that
Speaker 2: even just me, because I've had people play test it
Speaker 2: and I've watched them and I've taken their feedback and
Speaker 2: I've adjusted it. But the level design is the one
Speaker 2: thing that like is all me. Like I really enjoyed
Speaker 2: the process of creating the new mechanics combining them. I
Speaker 2: took a very mathematical approach in this game for some reason,
Speaker 2: maybe because it's robotic themed and stuff like that, in
Speaker 2: terms of the levels and how they progress and what
Speaker 2: elements are in them. And I think just I could,
Speaker 2: I probably I had to be at some point, like
Speaker 2: we got to stop making levels because people aren't gonna
Speaker 2: want to play Fast World eight or nine, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. Like so, but that was probably the
Speaker 2: part that I really enjoy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that's maybe a dangerous one then
Speaker 1: for that to be your favorite thing, because that easily
Speaker 1: just like rolls into this huge scope issue. Whe're like, well,
Speaker 1: I could just keep making levels all day long, but
Speaker 1: then okay, well now I need new zones, Now I
Speaker 1: need to do art, No, I need to How is
Speaker 1: the story going to work across these things? So at
Speaker 1: some point you just got to say, okay, fine, I'll
Speaker 1: stop and maybe you can do more later in a
Speaker 1: bonus way or something. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, that's uh, that's
Speaker 1: did you find that? Were there any worlds or zones
Speaker 1: that just didn't end up working you just had to
Speaker 1: chop them where you just felt like a pacing wise,
Speaker 1: this one's good, but like I just want the game
Speaker 1: to be tighter and more focused. Like, how did that
Speaker 1: that go for you? And did it? Was it tricky
Speaker 1: after you spent hours and hours and weeks and weeks
Speaker 1: making a level and have to get rid of it.
Speaker 1: Did that ever happen in a way that was heartbreaking?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely three major mechanics that I have levels
Speaker 2: that I actually think are pretty solid levels, which I
Speaker 2: think you even might remember the wind the level.
Speaker 1: I do remember the one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I cut that and I cut two other mechanics
Speaker 2: that I designed full levels for, and the wind level especially,
Speaker 2: I feel like I polished quite a bit and then
Speaker 2: just cut it. And that one feels a little sad,
Speaker 2: But I actually, to your point, like I might, it
Speaker 2: might it might show up in an updated you know,
Speaker 2: as a bonus thing at some point if I ever
Speaker 2: get around to that. Yeah, no promises, but it is
Speaker 2: it is, you know, something I might do. And then
Speaker 2: there are some variations like I think, like it's just iteration,
Speaker 2: right like where when I first was making these levels,
Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of consistency, but then at some
Speaker 2: point I decided, Okay, every level has to have four checkpoints,
Speaker 2: and so I and every level should be each checkpoint
Speaker 2: should be roughly this far apart. Maybe later levels that
Speaker 2: they're longer segments, you know what I mean, like and
Speaker 2: and some of that was just feel, but at some
Speaker 2: point then I was like, Okay, I gotta do this,
Speaker 2: and so a few levels got severely changed because of that,
Speaker 2: where I was like, oh, this level has three checkpoints,
Speaker 2: I need to lengthen it, or this one is way
Speaker 2: too long, you know what I mean, needs to be
Speaker 2: shortened or whatever, and those sort of things, but those didn't,
Speaker 2: those never felt quite sad. Usually most of the times
Speaker 2: the improvements feel good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah. One thing I love too about I feel
Speaker 1: like most of the levels, if my memory is correct here,
Speaker 1: is that the last like little romp up to the
Speaker 1: actual exit is like really easy, so you feel like
Speaker 1: you got through all the challenge and you can kind
Speaker 1: of just like blast through over to the exit here
Speaker 1: for just like some easy platforms up, which I feel
Speaker 1: like is a nice little little dessert I guess at
Speaker 1: the end of each level, which is Yeah.
Speaker 2: One thing I kind of came around to, and it's
Speaker 2: not exactly true on every level, but it's pretty true
Speaker 2: for most levels is that with four checkpoints, that essentially
Speaker 2: makes five segments right between them, and one segment on
Speaker 2: each level is pretty darn hard. I just tried to
Speaker 2: make one be like that's the challenging segment. I want
Speaker 2: to have two or three that are super hard. I
Speaker 2: want to have just one, and usually it shouldn't be
Speaker 2: the last one, right like that, that should be a
Speaker 2: little bit of a downhill, right like slide, So.
Speaker 1: That's good for the pacing of it. Do you put
Speaker 1: you on the spot here? Do you have a favorite
Speaker 1: zone or a favorite level.
Speaker 2: Oh, man, I think it's the last one. I I think, uh,
Speaker 2: And I don't want to say why because I think
Speaker 2: it's a little it's just a little different than all
Speaker 2: the rest of them. And also, like I said, I
Speaker 2: mechanically approached the game. I really like, mathematically broke down
Speaker 2: how the levels work, and so level nine is where
Speaker 2: everything is combined every mechanic is in it, or Zone nine,
Speaker 2: I should say, is where every mechanic is in every level.
Speaker 2: And that feels really like, oh, you know, it's like,
Speaker 2: this is what we're building up to, and here it is.
Speaker 1: So that's great. That's that. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: played in Neon White, but they kind of did that too,
Speaker 1: where the fine every world has its own new kind
Speaker 1: of main mechanic to it, and then the final one
Speaker 1: is combining everything and it just feels amazing and it
Speaker 1: feels like, yeah, it's so rewarding after you spend all
Speaker 1: this time to learn all this stuff and maybe you
Speaker 1: haven't seen one of them in a while.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, told them to come back or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. A question for you on marketing
Speaker 1: it because I've been extremely off social media so I
Speaker 1: haven't seen if you've been posting much. But what has
Speaker 1: marketing been like for you? And is that something you
Speaker 1: enjoy or is that we're like, Okay, I just have
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably the thing I am the worst at.
Speaker 2: The example I always tell everyone is so you can
Speaker 2: see behind me in the video these puppets right here,
Speaker 2: I used to make puppets. I did it primarily as
Speaker 2: a performance thing. I was a puppeteer, and I mostly
Speaker 2: made them to perform with. But I also did a
Speaker 2: couple of like craft shows and made puppets to sell.
Speaker 2: And I remember somebody calling me out because I convinced
Speaker 2: somebody not to buy a puppet from me. Like, that's
Speaker 2: how good at marketing I am. That is the example
Speaker 2: I give, Like I I think it's just I think,
Speaker 2: like a lot of people, especially in this day and age,
Speaker 2: where everybody's you know, trying to market themselves and you're
Speaker 2: a brand and so yourself, that just doesn't feel authentic.
Speaker 2: And I've never liked pressuring people, and I've never liked
Speaker 2: being like, hey, look at me, you know, so it's
Speaker 2: really hard for me to bridge those things and and
Speaker 2: and find a way that feels authentic and doesn't feel
Speaker 2: like I'm just posting a bunch of stuff. So I'm not.
Speaker 2: I've not done a very good job of it, to
Speaker 2: be completely honest, and I've tried, and I've pushed myself
Speaker 2: and I'm trying in these and I will continue to.
Speaker 2: But I will you've got advice or lessons or whatever,
Speaker 2: like I'm open minded on that stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can help you much because
Speaker 1: that's also something I didn't enjoy. And you know, I
Speaker 1: probably should have done a lot more marketing before launching
Speaker 1: Potion Problem if I wanted it to be more financially successful,
Speaker 1: but I think I just wanted to be done with
Speaker 1: it when when I was at.
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I think, well, like I think one of
Speaker 2: the things that I tell myself is also like the
Speaker 2: success is not necessarily financial success, right, And I think
Speaker 2: for you it's probably the same, right, it's finishing it
Speaker 2: or there are different levels of success or different aspects
Speaker 2: of it, and financial success is one piece of it.
Speaker 2: And I don't think financial success is very likely on
Speaker 2: your first game, right, like your.
Speaker 1: First visuals with how many games are on Steam on
Speaker 1: a daily basis at this point.
Speaker 2: Right, So I think it's more about obviously that we
Speaker 2: shouldn't use that as an excuse to not do it,
Speaker 2: which is easy to do. But I think there were
Speaker 2: different parts or different time periods over the last three
Speaker 2: years where I've really like needed quote unquote this game
Speaker 2: to do well for financially, Like when I was working
Speaker 2: a job that I really was unhappy in for example,
Speaker 2: whereas like this will get me out, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean, And that's not really a healthy or helpful
Speaker 2: at either, right to Like, so I think now that
Speaker 2: I have a job where I'm happy, I would be
Speaker 2: great if the game made a lot of money, but
Speaker 2: that's you know, not that's not success right for me?
Speaker 2: Right now?
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that sounds no. I mean, I just love
Speaker 1: I was self aware you are of that. It feels
Speaker 1: very healthy, uh, the way the way you set it
Speaker 1: up there, and that was something I wanted Dimension dudes.
Speaker 1: I feel like my one part that I remember a
Speaker 1: big part of this development was when you were doing
Speaker 1: the monthly I think it was monthly devlogs, right, And
Speaker 1: I think that was because you you were working a
Speaker 1: full time job and then you left that and then
Speaker 1: you were kind of putting a lot of time into
Speaker 1: the game, and then you had to get a job again,
Speaker 1: and then at some point in there, like Switchheads, you
Speaker 1: were on there and not off there. So just in
Speaker 1: terms of like how much time you have on a
Speaker 1: daily basis, But those devlogs, I really love those. And
Speaker 1: I don't know how much those move the needle in
Speaker 1: terms of like the marketing side of it, but even
Speaker 1: for me personally, just like to have that and feel like,
Speaker 1: oh man, so many of these feelings you're having. I'm
Speaker 1: feeling too working on my project and stuff, and just
Speaker 1: how personal it was and just to see those updates
Speaker 1: was really fun. So I really enjoyed those those devlogs.
Speaker 2: Those are cool, yeah, And I think maybe you can
Speaker 2: relate to this too as somebody who's making a game,
Speaker 2: you know, like I did higher out parts, but it
Speaker 2: still is me at the end of the day, like
Speaker 2: making the decisions and telling people what to do, and
Speaker 2: it's really my game, right, Like ultimately, like you're doing
Speaker 2: so many things that like it's really like all this
Speaker 2: time that you're spending marketing or especially if it's stuff
Speaker 2: that you're not sure that it even matters, like posting
Speaker 2: on social media or writing devlogs. Like, it's really nice
Speaker 2: to hear you say that, because I would write these
Speaker 2: things and I would share them, and then I'd just
Speaker 2: be like, did I just waste a lot of time
Speaker 2: that I could have been working on the game when
Speaker 2: I have limited time because I'm working a job, and
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like writing this and thinking
Speaker 2: of this idea and sharing it, and that's kind of
Speaker 2: where I landed of and that's where I've also kind
Speaker 2: of like, especially for this first game, of like I
Speaker 2: just need to make the game, like that's that's without that,
Speaker 2: like you have nothing.
Speaker 1: So yeah, definitely, I mean I think inherently too, like
Speaker 1: if you go on to make other games, release more
Speaker 1: games on Steam, the fact that you have something else
Speaker 1: on Steam and people can be like, oh, whatever this
Speaker 1: project is, click on the developer name, Oh there's another
Speaker 1: game here. I'm gonna check this game out. Like I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of that starts happening naturally
Speaker 1: over time too, once you build up a bit more
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 2: But absolutely, yeah, I mean I was talking to somebody
Speaker 2: else about this or write a friend of mine and Dan,
Speaker 2: you know Dan, and he was like, yeah, you think
Speaker 2: of him as like lightning rods, Like, not all of
Speaker 2: your lightning rods are gonna get attract lightning, but the
Speaker 2: more you put out there, one of them might hit,
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, And I liked that metaphor that he used,
Speaker 2: So that's how it's like, that's why I'm like, I've
Speaker 2: learned so much from doing this. It would be I mean,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be stupid to quit, but it would be like,
Speaker 2: in some ways, I'm like, it would be stupid to
Speaker 2: not try one more time, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Be a little more efficient, be a little bit more knowledgeable,
Speaker 2: you know. But I also totally understand why people make
Speaker 2: one game and then they're like, that was a lot
Speaker 2: of work, and I never want to do that again,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmm uh Okay, I I don't think I have
Speaker 1: any more like specific game questions, but I guess other
Speaker 1: than yeah, you kind of already hinted that maybe like
Speaker 1: post launch you might maybe do some more levels or something.
Speaker 1: But what like right now, obviously we're a few days
Speaker 1: out from the release date. In an ideal world, what
Speaker 1: does like the post launch look like for this for you,
Speaker 1: Like maybe a couple bug fixes, maybe you want to
Speaker 1: do a bit more or you kind of like ready
Speaker 1: to move on and try something else where you are
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 2: It's funny because if you'd asked me that question like
Speaker 2: two or three weeks ago, I would have been like,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna do the bug fixes and I'm going to
Speaker 2: move on. But something about being knee deep in it
Speaker 2: right now, I'm like, maybe I'll do one small content update,
Speaker 2: But I also could see myself really changing my mind,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. And some of it is
Speaker 2: like if and I don't expect like hundreds of thousands
Speaker 2: of people to buy my game or anything like that,
Speaker 2: far from it, but like some of it is, well
Speaker 2: what happens, you know, like is there people who are
Speaker 2: playing it that where it feels like if I put
Speaker 2: out a content update there would actually be people who
Speaker 2: would enjoy it, or have the people that have played
Speaker 2: it played it and moved on, And it's kind of
Speaker 2: silly to do that. So I think it's a little
Speaker 2: bit of gauging that. But I definitely want to at
Speaker 2: least do a handful of updates to fix things. And
Speaker 2: there are there are things on my list right now
Speaker 2: that are like small, polishy things that I'm like, I'll
Speaker 2: package that in with a bug fix update if I can,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like like little quality of
Speaker 2: life things. I don't even know what they are off
Speaker 2: the top of my head, but there's a handful of
Speaker 2: things where I've been like, yeah, that would be good
Speaker 2: if if I did that, but it's not critical, and
Speaker 2: so that could fit in with a bug fix update
Speaker 2: at one point one or whatever. You know, we'll see
Speaker 2: if we ever get to the two point zero. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, and then you mentioned also like maybe revamping that demo.
Speaker 1: I guess just updating that demo you have to have
Speaker 1: something that's a bit more reflective of the final product there,
Speaker 1: which because I I forget what that what the demo
Speaker 1: is currently is, it just.
Speaker 2: Can't really mean it's really meaning. Actually it is about
Speaker 2: a third of the game, okay, yeah, which is a lot.
Speaker 2: And that's why I was definitely hesitating. It was like,
Speaker 2: is this too much to give away for free? That's
Speaker 2: why I'm like, if you're if you're on the fence,
Speaker 2: check it out. You know, I don't think it's that
Speaker 2: hard for me to update it, So it just kind
Speaker 2: of makes sense for me to keep that at parody
Speaker 2: every time I do a bug fix, unless it doesn't
Speaker 2: affect the demo, you know, So I kind of plan
Speaker 2: on continuing to support the demo as long as I'm
Speaker 2: supporting the game. But if there are content updates and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, that's not going to go in the demo. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then how about so obviously game jams. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you plan to do a lot more of those,
Speaker 1: But I've found, for sure, especially in that last year
Speaker 1: of making Potion problem, the amount of intrusive thoughts I
Speaker 1: had to push away of, like, well, I have a
Speaker 1: cool game idea and really work on this, Like are
Speaker 1: you just bubbling with those right now, or are you
Speaker 1: like trying your hardest to like dig a hole, throw
Speaker 1: them in the hottle and bury it up.
Speaker 2: I definitely am bubbling with those. And I think doing
Speaker 2: the game jam with you and the game jam I
Speaker 2: did prior to that, both of those inspired me. I mean,
Speaker 2: I mean I wouldn't even mind returning to that idea,
Speaker 2: like that was a cool idea. Yeah, But also like
Speaker 2: I think I found myself. It's kind of funny because
Speaker 2: I think game jams will do that to you. Like
Speaker 2: my son and I both after one of the game jams,
Speaker 2: We're both like sitting here working on new ideas, like
Speaker 2: and then I'm like wait a minute, like, I this
Speaker 2: is dumb.
Speaker 1: Yeah. My rule was like as far as I'll go
Speaker 1: is I'll put things on a Google doc, but I'm
Speaker 1: not allowed to open a new game maker project.
Speaker 2: Do an art for like the game. And then I
Speaker 2: was like whoa, Like stop, you know this is cool,
Speaker 2: but like let's let's let's slow a roll up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely don't know, uh exactly, I have
Speaker 2: what I'll do next, but I have a lot of ideas. Yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 1: Uh so as we wrap up on monochrom Heights here,
Speaker 1: any I don't know, do you have any final lesson
Speaker 1: or a final funny story or a funny glitch in
Speaker 1: the game, Like, I don't know any one good final
Speaker 1: anecdote for us.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I think it's just I mean this, well,
Speaker 2: maybe a couple things real briefly, like the the glitch
Speaker 2: that just won't go away. It's like I've had this
Speaker 2: cannonball glitch in the game and I fixed it, and
Speaker 2: I've tried to fix it and I fixed it in
Speaker 2: multiple different ways, and then just yesterday, I think it
Speaker 2: was maybe two days ago, I realized that the fix
Speaker 2: I was implementing it only works in the editor and
Speaker 2: doesn't work in the build, because I was playing the
Speaker 2: game and it happened, and I'm like, what the heck,
Speaker 2: And I went to the editor and I'm like, it's fixed,
Speaker 2: and then I just was like, wait a minute, I
Speaker 2: think this is something is you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: if you ever had that problem, that is a really
Speaker 2: frustrating problem to have where something works in the engine
Speaker 2: but doesn't it work in your builds, And so I
Speaker 2: basically had to redesign a solution differently that at least
Speaker 2: I think is working. And that was just the other day,
Speaker 2: so that was like a little stressful. But also it's
Speaker 2: not that big of a deal. It's not a glitch
Speaker 2: that like really matter. It's just a visual thing. I
Speaker 2: mean it does basically the canball will fire twice sometimes
Speaker 2: if you respawn it just the right time and it's
Speaker 2: firing sequence and it has two cannonballs, and I'm like
Speaker 2: and it looks ugly and it okay, it just kind
Speaker 2: of well.
Speaker 1: At least your game is hard, so if that happens,
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, it's just a hard game.
Speaker 2: So that one is for us is like frustrating and
Speaker 2: funny to me at the same time. But I also
Speaker 2: feel like, I don't know, there are some glitches that
Speaker 2: have been around for a while, and as I've gotten
Speaker 2: better at programming and coding, like I'm just so much
Speaker 2: better at bug fixing now and debugging and that sort
Speaker 2: of thing. Like, so there are some like that one,
Speaker 2: for example, and another glitcher two that had been in
Speaker 2: the game for a really long time that I hadn't
Speaker 2: even messed with because they're just kind of minor and rare,
Speaker 2: where when I finally sat down within the last month
Speaker 2: or two to try to fix them, I'm just like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's what it is. And it's like I tried to
Speaker 2: fix this a year ago for like a week straight
Speaker 2: and couldn't figure it out, and here I am in
Speaker 2: one hour like identifying and solving it, you know, And
Speaker 2: so maybe there's a lesson there of Like that's another
Speaker 2: reason I'm like I got to just make a second game,
Speaker 2: because I'm not saying I'm great at any of these things,
Speaker 2: because I'm really not, but I have leveled up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely right on. That's that's great to hear.
Speaker 1: And then just one last question for you, and this
Speaker 1: is a selfish one because I don't get to listen
Speaker 1: to you on a weekly basis on a podcast anymore.
Speaker 1: What have you been playing lately? Any gaming highlights of
Speaker 1: anything you've played last I know you've been way too
Speaker 1: busy just working on Monochrome, especially in the finish line here,
Speaker 1: But what have you been playing?
Speaker 2: I have like been putting off playing games I was
Speaker 2: in the last few months, Like I bought Doggie Kung
Speaker 2: Bonanza and I didn't touch it, and my son played
Speaker 2: a lot of it, and I was like, no, I
Speaker 2: can't play that. And then I broke down and I
Speaker 2: was like, I have to play something, like I can't
Speaker 2: deny myself of one of my fits hobbies, like just
Speaker 2: because so I picked up Chickery nice. I love playing Chickery.
Speaker 2: And then Silk Song got announced like last minute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're a big hollow Night guy, right, you love.
Speaker 2: Hollow Knight pan Yeah, Like, and that's very inspirational to me.
Speaker 2: And so I was like, well, I can't. I can't
Speaker 2: avoid silk Songs. So the two games I've been playing
Speaker 2: quite a decent amount of somehow on top of all
Speaker 2: this is Chickory and Silk Song.
Speaker 1: Nice. Nice. Okay, I don't want to get any spoilers
Speaker 1: out there for Silk Song, but I'll maybe I'll ask
Speaker 1: you off cast where you're at in the game because
Speaker 1: I'm curious. But now that, Yeah, Silk Song was super good.
Speaker 1: And yeah, Chickery, I love chickry. What I think I
Speaker 1: was made in game Maker actually, which has always been
Speaker 1: inspirational for me, like I can't believe this is possible,
Speaker 1: and game Maker like there's so many things I need
Speaker 1: to learn. Clearly, I thought this engine was limited, but
Speaker 1: I see game like that and I'm like, my mind
Speaker 1: is just blown.
Speaker 2: Yeah, both that and wander Song, which is the main
Speaker 2: developers previous game or game Maker.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. All right. So October seventh, Monochrome Heights
Speaker 1: is out. If people want, they can also play the demo,
Speaker 1: I guess. So, you know, obviously you're not a big
Speaker 1: marketing guy, so let's also help you, hope by maybe
Speaker 1: going to the social media's throw alike or a comment
Speaker 1: on your stuff. Where should people go to support you
Speaker 1: and the game in general?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my social media accounts and you know, my
Speaker 2: presence and discorder anywhere else is p d YX is
Speaker 2: what I go by. Sometimes websites require you to have
Speaker 2: more than four characters, so a lot of places I
Speaker 2: am p d Yx one, two three, and then the
Speaker 2: name of my game studio is one Frog Games, and
Speaker 2: I have an account for that on most places too,
Speaker 2: so yeah.
Speaker 1: Right on. Well, Patrick, thank you so much for joining
Speaker 1: me this, like I said, a long time coming to
Speaker 1: get you over here on side Quest. This has been
Speaker 1: a joy, a pleasure. It's always very feel like, very
Speaker 1: cathartic for me too to just hear the development of
Speaker 1: your game and how it kind of mirrors things I've
Speaker 1: seen in my life too, So thank you for finally
Speaker 1: joining me here. Thank you everyone for listening, and we
Speaker 1: will see you again next time. Bye bye,