WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.159 --> 00:00:05.200 Hello, and welcome to a side Quest Bonus episode. My 2 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:06.839 name is Dyl Muss and I've been joined by a 3 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:10.160 very special guest here, Patrick Nisley of one Frog Games, 4 00:00:10.160 --> 00:00:13.119 here to talk about his game, Monochrom Heights. Patrick, We've 5 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:15.119 been friends for many years. I've been on your podcast 6 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:17.679 or ex podcast ish in Away a few times, and 7 00:00:17.719 --> 00:00:19.800 so it's great to have you over here. Finally, how 8 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:20.800 are you feeling today? 9 00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:24.079 Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. Thank you so much, Dylan 10 00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:27.239 for having me. I'm, like you said, I've known you 11 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:32.280 for a while and I'm you know, really thankful that 12 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.000 you asked me to come and do this, to you know, 13 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:37.079 be a part of this. Thank you. M M. 14 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:39.439 Yeah. No, this is gonna be a fun episode really, 15 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:41.799 all about just Monicroam Heights, the game that you've been making, 16 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:44.119 and just you and your development and your history making 17 00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:46.399 games and that kind of fun stuff. I guess the 18 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:48.399 origin story for people like me and you met a 19 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:51.520 few years ago. You were part of these super Switchheads podcasts, 20 00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:53.280 and you're still involved in the community. You're still in 21 00:00:53.320 --> 00:00:54.759 the podcast every once in a while. You Hee's not 22 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:57.240 a main host anymore, and I just love you guys 23 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:00.000 podcast and I just took my shot. It's like, hey, 24 00:01:00.039 --> 00:01:02.439 it's kind of come on the podcast one time and 25 00:01:02.479 --> 00:01:03.840 you guys had me on there, and then you know, 26 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:05.680 I was on there a couple more times. David has 27 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:07.760 been over here on side Quest once, so it's fine. 28 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.560 It's great to finally have you on here as well. 29 00:01:10.640 --> 00:01:13.159 So and then since then, like me and you just 30 00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:15.560 kind of talk about game development, checking in on things. 31 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:17.280 We did a game gen earlier this year, which I 32 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:20.079 shouted out many times on side Quest. So it's been 33 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:21.959 a fun journey. Eve though we've never met in person, 34 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:23.920 it feels like it feels like we have. 35 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:27.640 Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, and also just like 36 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:29.959 a little life lesson there to shoot your shot, like 37 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:32.400 reach out to people like I am not good at that, 38 00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:38.719 and anytime somebody like he tells that an anecdote like that, 39 00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:42.280 I'm always reminded of, like what's the worst people can say? 40 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:45.560 No? You know, yeah, Usually it's just you just get ghosted, 41 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:48.359 which is like it's fine, not just my life of no, 42 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:54.040 but yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's let's talk about your 43 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:56.640 game of it here. So Monokrom Heights is a platformer. 44 00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:01.079 I mean you've done, you've been at many, I guess conferences, 45 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:03.079 these kinds of things you've shown off the game. You 46 00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.319 obviously wrote all the text on your Steam page, so 47 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:07.879 I'm sure you have the elevator pitch down to a science. 48 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:09.199 But do you want to give it here? What is 49 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:10.240 Monochro Mice? 50 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:15.000 Yeah? Absolutely, I say it is a tough as nails 51 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:19.039 two D pixel art platformer, and it's a pure platformer. 52 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.319 There's no action element like you think about like Mario 53 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:27.280 shooting fireballs or damaging enemies. This is all about straight 54 00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:31.800 up platforming. And then the sort of more gamer pitch 55 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:34.120 that I have for people that are more familiar with 56 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:36.240 video games and not. You actually need to be pretty 57 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:38.120 familiar with video games for what I just said too. 58 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:44.240 But is it's Ikaruga meets Celeste with a Mega Man esthetic? 59 00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.680 Is the other elevator pitch for you? 60 00:02:47.919 --> 00:02:50.199 Right? Definitely has the Yeah, the Mega Man kind of 61 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.199 slide to it. I feel like that's core to the 62 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.080 to the movement of the game. Yeah, And I will 63 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:57.400 say so, I've I've played the game before, but I 64 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.360 actually haven't played the latest build, like the final newest build. 65 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.039 The game, I guess we should say, is finally coming 66 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.759 out here on October seventh of twenty twenty five. There's 67 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:07.479 also a demo, which I was curious, folcause I know 68 00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:09.919 you put that demo up originally, maybe you're GOO a 69 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:12.280 few months ago. Have you updated that or is that 70 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:14.599 still like an older version of the game, or are 71 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:16.199 you gonna take that down? What's up? What's up with 72 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:16.560 the demo? 73 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:19.120 Yeah, this is definitely an internal debate. I had quite 74 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:22.280 a bit around, but I think where I've landed is 75 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:25.439 I'm going to update the demo to be parody with 76 00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:29.240 the game. It is not presently prior to release, and 77 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.039 I'm not even sure if I'm gonna have time to 78 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:34.360 do it right at release, but I hope too. But uh, 79 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:37.400 if you're interested in the game and you're hesitant, it's 80 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:42.520 a big demo to be to be like transparent, it's 81 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:44.680 a good bit of the game, and I am going 82 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:47.680 to I just came around to the idea of like 83 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:52.960 why it feels wrong to pull it down like, which 84 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:55.960 I definitely at first was like maybe I should. It's like, 85 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:59.120 it's not that hard for me to the way I 86 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:01.520 designed them. I really just have to take a few 87 00:04:01.560 --> 00:04:07.319 boxes unity and that's like and then I could push 88 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:08.960 out the demo, so I'm like, you know what, I 89 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.240 don't think it hurts. Yeah, really, you know, friends, hopefully 90 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:14.560 it helps rather than hurts. 91 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.720 M hmm. Yeah. So the game's out October seventh, which 92 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.319 I mean, congratuate freaginglations it as hard as hell. As 93 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:22.879 as hard as your game is, it is maybe even 94 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:24.759 harder to make it. Well, it's definitely harder to make 95 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:28.439 a game, so congratulations. Uh what trying to think? What 96 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:30.120 year do you do? You remember the year month when 97 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:32.480 you when you started this thing in proper? 98 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:35.079 I do, actually, So it's been about three and a 99 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:40.319 half years since I did the game jam that it 100 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:45.000 came out of, So I can't remember exactly the day, 101 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:49.560 but it was sometime around late April early May of 102 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:56.279 twenty twenty two that I did a game jam where 103 00:04:56.319 --> 00:04:58.240 we made it a game that is essentially this but 104 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:00.920 way shitty. 105 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.079 Yeah, I mean, I guess the main differentiation between your 106 00:05:06.120 --> 00:05:09.199 game and other platformers is the phasing mechanic, where there 107 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:12.120 are platforms and obstacles that are either black or white, 108 00:05:12.279 --> 00:05:14.399 and then you like swap the color of your character 109 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:16.879 so that you, I guess what's the word you would 110 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:20.720 do is like interact or collide with those kind of 111 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.319 opposite colors. So it was that part of the game 112 00:05:23.399 --> 00:05:24.720 jam was that initial premise. 113 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:29.040 Yeah, that's I wanted to make a platformer, and the 114 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:33.480 game jam team was just me, my friend who was 115 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:36.879 by Bent Neatley, who does the music and continues to 116 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:40.199 did the music for the whole release. And then a 117 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.360 third fellow who I could just kind of knew through 118 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:44.600 doing a few game jams and haven't really kept up 119 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:48.399 much with his name's ever, and he actually is the 120 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:53.480 one that pitched that idea. He was like the theme 121 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:57.040 for that game jam was looping, which I think we 122 00:05:57.040 --> 00:05:59.879 were thinking of like looping through colors. It actually in 123 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:03.680 the game jam, there's three colors that you rotate between. 124 00:06:03.680 --> 00:06:07.879 It's black, white, and gray, which is way too hard. 125 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:12.560 Yeah, it did it loop like like in that cycle 126 00:06:12.639 --> 00:06:15.040 or could you choose like okay, I choose. 127 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:17.920 To go which direction? I think I don't even remember. 128 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:20.000 Actually that almost sounds like playing a rhythm game at 129 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:22.519 the same time as playing like a platform. 130 00:06:22.160 --> 00:06:25.360 Or like just swimming between two colors is hard enough. 131 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:27.879 And you know, when I went to make the full game, 132 00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:31.879 I definitely thought about including that third color as some 133 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:35.279 extra challenge or something, but I just eventually was like, 134 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.759 it's I've made this way hard enough without adding yeah, 135 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.639 more more things. 136 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:44.959 You know. So and that was in Unity as well, 137 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:45.920 that game Jam. 138 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:48.439 That's correct? Yeah? Is it? 139 00:06:48.480 --> 00:06:50.160 Is it the same file that you built off of 140 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.040 or did you start a new product? 141 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:56.399 But the I did prototype it once or twice after 142 00:06:58.199 --> 00:06:59.920 after the game jam to try to kind of figure 143 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.040 out the physics better because I was pretty green, and 144 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:06.160 I mean I still am, but I've learned so much 145 00:07:06.199 --> 00:07:09.720 over the last three years. That first game jam is 146 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:13.240 just super floaty, you know what I mean. And I've 147 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.519 like since then learned, oh real or it's not real physics. 148 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:19.920 It's fake video game physics to kind of you know, 149 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.560 like slam down when you're coming down and that sort 150 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.759 of thing feels better, and that's how most platformers work. 151 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.000 So it took me a few prototypes to kind of 152 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:31.839 land in the general direction. But the file, the file 153 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:35.199 that the final game really is is called like November 154 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.040 twenty twenty two or something like that. So that's where 155 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:42.519 I started the project. That a few more actual Unity projects. 156 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:47.560 Yeah, yeah, gotcha, that's cool. Yeah, I uh like, how 157 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:50.120 how do you finally get to the point because for 158 00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:51.639 me this was such a harder thing too, of like 159 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:54.480 the last few months potion problem, All right, what am 160 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.240 I cutting? I'd need to finish this thing right now? 161 00:07:57.519 --> 00:07:59.399 So how how are you? Because I haven't checked in 162 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:00.600 with you in like a few months, and I feel 163 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:02.120 like it sounded like, oh, you're raimed for the end 164 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:04.120 of this year, but like, I don't know, might slip 165 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:06.720 next year again, we'll see. So tell me about like 166 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:08.639 these last couple months for you and how you've kind 167 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:10.040 of I don't know if you've had to make any 168 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:11.839 big cuts or if you really just felt like, oh, 169 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:13.240 the game's in a really good place now, I don't 170 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:15.120 need any more worlds Like how have you come to 171 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:18.160 the decision of finally hit the button on October seventh? 172 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.160 Which is a very satisfying button to hit, I'll say 173 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:22.120 on Steam. I mean, I guess you've kind of done 174 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:23.759 know what the demo thing when you've released that too, 175 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:24.839 But it feels. 176 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.480 Good, not the same. Yeah, I look forward to sharing 177 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:33.919 that feeling, but it's coming soon. But yeah, I think 178 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.720 I'll be honest, I think I just lost the thread. Well, 179 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:39.559 can you remind me of the question I got distracted 180 00:08:39.559 --> 00:08:40.440 by the button pushing and. 181 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:43.440 Yeah, just like in the last couple months, what has 182 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:45.480 led you to the realization of like, okay, the game 183 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:46.600 is finally ready to go? 184 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:52.240 Yeah, okay. So I think, like any creative project, I 185 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:54.919 just saw this Leonardo da Vinci quote somewhere else, like 186 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:59.480 literally ten or thirty minutes ago that like a creative 187 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.919 project is never done, it's just abandoned or whatever that 188 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:04.720 I don't even know if DaVinci really said that. It's 189 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:06.840 the internet, you know what I mean, Like I believe 190 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:14.240 it people he spoke Italian anyway, So I think I 191 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:17.799 kind of just was like, I have to be done 192 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.480 with this thing this year. We're coming up on three 193 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.519 and a half years, like I think November. I don't 194 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:25.720 even know. I can't do the math in my head. 195 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:27.360 I am at about three and a half years. It's 196 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:31.000 like I couldnot let this drag into the next year. 197 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:32.879 I mean I might have to, like I think I 198 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:35.519 told you, but I was like, I don't want to. 199 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.080 And at some point I just looked at what I 200 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.600 had and I was like, God, this is much more done. 201 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.080 Like maybe you can relate to this. But there have 202 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.200 been periods of time where I've had to kind of 203 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:53.279 do a lot of life stuff, like my real job 204 00:09:53.559 --> 00:09:57.200 or my day job is busy, this or that. And 205 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:59.279 I came to a period where I had a little 206 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:00.759 more time to look at it, and I was like, 207 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:03.159 I think I can I think I can do this 208 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:07.679 by fall, and I'm gonna look at a specific time 209 00:10:07.720 --> 00:10:09.320 and for me, that was I think the end of 210 00:10:09.320 --> 00:10:13.519 August and if if at the end of August I 211 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:16.240 am good, I'm going to release it and early to 212 00:10:16.279 --> 00:10:19.120 mid October, like if I feel like I can do it, 213 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:21.840 if i feel like I'm happy with where right that 214 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:23.879 such that even if it went out now it would 215 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.600 be okay or you know what I mean. And then 216 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:30.120 after that, I was like, Okay, that's the time period 217 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:31.679 I think I can do it. And then I'm like, 218 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:36.559 oh crap. Steam has an autumn sale from yeah, October 219 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.159 whatever until October sixth, and then they have next Fest 220 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:43.639 from October thirteenth through this. I'm like, hmm, well, I 221 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:45.039 think it's got to go right there. 222 00:10:46.360 --> 00:10:49.480 Smart, Yeah, that makes sense. So is the last couple 223 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.759 months then, like since that August deadline that you said forself, 224 00:10:53.080 --> 00:10:56.399 like no more new content, it's just like polishing fixing 225 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.519 bugs at that point, and then like I guess more 226 00:10:58.559 --> 00:10:59.679 marketing stuff at that point. 227 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.279 Yeah, I mean it's for me, I realized the game 228 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:05.720 is in pretty good shape. It's like just a lot 229 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:11.279 of polish, and like I think, you know, we talked 230 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:14.320 a lot about the gameplay, but I had this game 231 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.960 also has a story and and cut scenes. I mean, 232 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:21.639 maybe it feels almost wrong to call them cut scenes 233 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:24.879 because they are literally just two D pixel art sprites 234 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.480 that are you know, and then dialogue boxes. But but 235 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.840 it's I think that's yeah, but there are these cut scenes, 236 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:36.720 and for me, they're really important. And and I think 237 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.159 that stuff was a little rougher still, and and honestly, 238 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.639 there's still a few things that I'm trying to like 239 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:49.799 squeeze like in, especially for the endings right now, Like wow, 240 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.159 I think I'm really happy with the endings, but like 241 00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:57.080 if I can get in and and and maybe make 242 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:01.919 this a different animation or whatever, So again, I kind 243 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:03.840 of like just decided it has to be this date. 244 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:09.919 And yeah, and so it's mostly little stuff, but there's 245 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:12.919 a lot of little stuff. And then like it's just 246 00:12:12.960 --> 00:12:15.799 like I even now I'm like, oh crap, I found 247 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:21.559 one I don't know about you, but I could looking back. 248 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:24.919 There's so many design decisions I've made that are like, 249 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:29.080 we're short term gain at the expense of long term pain. 250 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:29.879 Sure. 251 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:34.960 It's like, for example, I have these NPCs that you 252 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:38.159 can talk to, and I wrote tons of dialogue for them, 253 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:42.120 and I'm really happy about that. But they have different colors. 254 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:43.840 Some of them are black and some of them are white, 255 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:45.799 and some of them have two eyes and some of 256 00:12:45.799 --> 00:12:48.960 them have one eye. And so I have this code 257 00:12:49.000 --> 00:12:53.840 that I just like hard coded in different places for 258 00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.320 the sprite is this way, and they're like, they're like, 259 00:12:56.600 --> 00:12:59.679 Portrait is this way, and I wish I had just 260 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:02.799 one of those things speak to the other rather than 261 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:04.679 hard coding them in two places. 262 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:05.120 Yeah. 263 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:06.759 So I'm like, every once in a while, I'm playing 264 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.679 through the game, like, oh crap, that's a one eyed bot. 265 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.240 But is you know portrait is two eyes. Yeah, let 266 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.399 me re export this whole project to fix that one, 267 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:17.279 you know. 268 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:19.440 I mean, I think that's probably just gonna be the 269 00:13:19.440 --> 00:13:21.200 case for anyone in our position, where like we've done 270 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:22.799 some game jams, done like a little bit here there, 271 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.960 but like this kind of being how we're learning game development. 272 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:29.600 Through this, you know, this final first full game. Yeah, 273 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:31.639 there's so many things that's like, oh, yeah, I could 274 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:33.519 have been now that I am better at just the 275 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:35.879 basics of coding, Oh, that could have been so much 276 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:38.200 more efficient that like what is hundreds of lines of 277 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.080 code could have been like twenty now that I know 278 00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:41.559 how this how. 279 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:46.960 This stuff had one of those places be the definition 280 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:49.840 of that a lot, and then the other one just 281 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:52.440 pulls from it. But instead I'm you know what I mean, 282 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:53.120 Like it's I. 283 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:54.840 Mean, I don't even think I really knew what scripts 284 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:57.080 were until like deep into my game, and that is 285 00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:00.679 such a helpful thing. But man, I may meant I 286 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.120 was typing and copy pasting things over and over again. 287 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.720 But yeah, it's kind of how it goes. Yeah, you've 288 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:08.399 done a lot of game jams. Now I'm curious how, like, 289 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:10.799 I don't know, do you feel like that was helping 290 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:12.759 you kind of break up the monotony or like, I 291 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:14.559 don't know, if you're ever just sometimes you're in a 292 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:16.240 rut where it's like a couple months we're like, man, 293 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.679 this freaking bug is annoying me, or I just am 294 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:20.960 feeling a little lost. I don't know, did you feel 295 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:22.960 like that helped you like still stretch that muscle, but 296 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:25.480 at least like put your mind in a different place. 297 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:27.919 And also like, okay, I have a shorter time frame here. 298 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:32.039 Yeah, I don't know what it is, but I really 299 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:36.120 enjoy doing game jams. But I think I've chosen good 300 00:14:36.159 --> 00:14:39.399 times to do them. I've gotten really good at being like, oh, 301 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:41.039 this would be a really good time for me to 302 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.720 do a game jam, and I am just like so focused, 303 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:47.360 like when we did the Chosen One. Part of the 304 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:52.080 reason I did that at that specific time and that 305 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.279 specific game jam was my wife was out of town 306 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:58.039 and my son, who did it with us, was like, 307 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:00.200 had you know, he and I just had a lot 308 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:01.600 of time. I didn't have a lot of work, and 309 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:04.360 so it was like, with my wife out of town, 310 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:07.080 that's all we'll do, you know what I mean? And 311 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.399 and yeah, I think it. I did that one also selfishly, 312 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:13.559 partly because I was like, if I get in that 313 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:17.799 mode of just like finishing and fixing and just doing 314 00:15:17.799 --> 00:15:20.279 the things, maybe I can take that energy into finishing 315 00:15:21.159 --> 00:15:23.919 this project. And also I do think it is a 316 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:26.440 little bit of like a palette cleanser and a reminder 317 00:15:26.559 --> 00:15:29.840 of why oh, this is why it's fun. 318 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.960 Yeah, those generating those new ideas for the first time 319 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.039 is yeah, extremely exciting. I want to ask you about that. Actually, So, 320 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.440 your your son is obviously like a big into game development. 321 00:15:40.440 --> 00:15:41.720 Now he's making all sorts of stuff. I think it 322 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:44.200 started with game builder garage. Maybe I don't know if 323 00:15:44.240 --> 00:15:45.399 that was the first thing he did, but I remember 324 00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:47.759 you talking about that on Switchheads, and now he's doing 325 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.679 stuff and obviously we worked with him on Chosen One, 326 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:51.879 and then I've followed him on Itch and I see 327 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:54.440 just like posting asset packs and all this stuff. So 328 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:57.840 I'm curious because obviously, I mean, he was quite a 329 00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:59.639 bit younger than he is now obviously when you started 330 00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:01.720 this problem. But has he had an influence at all, 331 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.919 like obviously play testing giving you like hey Dad, you 332 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.759 should change this thing, or this doesn't make sense, or 333 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.519 I don't know any anything that's come from him. I'm curious. 334 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:13.960 Well, this isn't exactly what you're asking, but I love 335 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:15.519 this story and so I'm gonna share it. 336 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:16.399 Please do. 337 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:23.000 The story itself has a big origin point related to him. 338 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:24.759 So I'm just gonna tell this story real quick, and 339 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.720 then maybe I can also answer exactly more kind of 340 00:16:27.759 --> 00:16:33.799 what you're saying, but so backing up like I guess 341 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:38.320 he's ten, so backing up approximately ten years ago, maybe 342 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.279 even more because he's almost eleven. When he was an infant, 343 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:46.440 he didn't sleep very well, and I was on night 344 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.919 duty pretty much, so I would try to get him 345 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:53.360 back to sleep. And that was a really rough period 346 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.759 of time, and I spent a lot of time in 347 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:59.440 a rocking chair in his room at this apartment we 348 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:03.000 lived in, just looking at these paper robots because we 349 00:17:03.000 --> 00:17:06.440 had done sort of a sci fi theme for his 350 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:08.920 room and my and for his like baby shower. I 351 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:12.000 think it was that my brother and my sister in 352 00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:14.519 law made these little paper robots as decorations and we 353 00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:16.599 hung them in his room. I just sat there staring 354 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:18.680 at them, and I came up with names for them, 355 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:21.359 and then I came up with backstories for them, and 356 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:23.519 then I came up with there on this team, and 357 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.119 then this happened, and you know what I mean, just 358 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.920 like way more because that's all I could do. Yeah, 359 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:32.960 I was just sitting there olding this kid. 360 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.319 Sorry, is this weaving into like you're telling him like 361 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:37.799 a bedtime story or you're just doing this just. 362 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:40.359 Me in my head because he was not even one, 363 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.640 you know, he was just a baby, and I took 364 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.559 all those ideas and I thought, you know, I wrote 365 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:48.799 eventually I was like, maybe I'm gonna do something with these, 366 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:52.440 and that's where the story for this game is from. 367 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:53.039 It's amazing. 368 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.480 But to answer your exact question, I mean, he has 369 00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:00.680 been one of my biggest champions. Like I have a 370 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.480 little artifact back here, which given embarrassingly, is from a 371 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:07.440 few years ago, because that's where it's like, yeah, this 372 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.920 has taken me so long. Where he's like in his school, 373 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.359 like they had like what are the things you want 374 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:16.759 or hope for? You know, and he wrote like, I 375 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:18.799 hope my dad's game is successful. 376 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:19.839 That is so cute. 377 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:24.440 I know, right and so and yeah, and as he's 378 00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:27.799 gotten better at stuff, he can talk really intelligently now, 379 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.240 Like I don't to age ten. I was playing as 380 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.279 many or more video games than him, but he knows 381 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:35.440 what hit boxes and colliders and you know, the collisions 382 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.039 and like like he can just talk about it because 383 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:40.079 he's knows how to do it. 384 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.920 So yeah, So now I actually want to go back 385 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:46.279 to the story you shared of the is happy who's 386 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:49.119 a protagonist of Monocram Heights, and then the other characters 387 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:50.759 that you have in there, which I don't know their 388 00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:53.039 names at the moment, but are those characters that came 389 00:18:53.079 --> 00:18:55.880 from that that those origin stories ten years ago? Then? 390 00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:57.880 Is Happy one of those original feats? 391 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:01.440 Yeah, so that's so cool. This little string of paper 392 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:06.119 robots that my family made had five robots on it. 393 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:09.200 And I don't want to really spoil because I actually 394 00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.440 think the story in the game is slowly revealed in 395 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:13.200 a certain way. I don't want to spoil it too much. 396 00:19:13.279 --> 00:19:19.599 But the major five characters, there's really three major characters, 397 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:23.880 but then there you'll see some other side ones. Yeah, 398 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:25.839 they are those those five robots. 399 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.119 That's awesome. Yeah, that was something that when I saw 400 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.440 the most recent trailer for the game, because now that 401 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:35.240