Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to a side Quest Bonus episode. My
name is Dyl Muss and I've been joined by a
very special guest here, Patrick Nisley of one Frog Games,
here to talk about his game, Monochrom Heights. Patrick, We've
been friends for many years. I've been on your podcast
or ex podcast ish in Away a few times, and
so it's great to have you over here. Finally, how
are you feeling today?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. Thank you so much, Dylan
for having me. I'm, like you said, I've known you
for a while and I'm you know, really thankful that
you asked me to come and do this, to you know,
be a part of this. Thank you. M M.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, this is gonna be a fun episode really,
all about just Monicroam Heights, the game that you've been making,
and just you and your development and your history making
games and that kind of fun stuff. I guess the
origin story for people like me and you met a
few years ago. You were part of these super Switchheads podcasts,
and you're still involved in the community. You're still in
the podcast every once in a while. You Hee's not
a main host anymore, and I just love you guys
podcast and I just took my shot. It's like, hey,
it's kind of come on the podcast one time and
you guys had me on there, and then you know,
I was on there a couple more times. David has
been over here on side Quest once, so it's fine.
It's great to finally have you on here as well.
So and then since then, like me and you just
kind of talk about game development, checking in on things.
We did a game gen earlier this year, which I
shouted out many times on side Quest. So it's been
a fun journey. Eve though we've never met in person,
it feels like it feels like we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, and also just like
a little life lesson there to shoot your shot, like
reach out to people like I am not good at that,
and anytime somebody like he tells that an anecdote like that,
I'm always reminded of, like what's the worst people can say?
Speaker 1: No? You know, yeah, Usually it's just you just get ghosted,
which is like it's fine, not just my life of no,
but yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's let's talk about your
game of it here. So Monokrom Heights is a platformer.
I mean you've done, you've been at many, I guess conferences,
these kinds of things you've shown off the game. You
obviously wrote all the text on your Steam page, so
I'm sure you have the elevator pitch down to a science.
But do you want to give it here? What is
Monochro Mice?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I say it is a tough as nails
two D pixel art platformer, and it's a pure platformer.
There's no action element like you think about like Mario
shooting fireballs or damaging enemies. This is all about straight
up platforming. And then the sort of more gamer pitch
that I have for people that are more familiar with
video games and not. You actually need to be pretty
familiar with video games for what I just said too.
But is it's Ikaruga meets Celeste with a Mega Man esthetic?
Is the other elevator pitch for you?
Speaker 1: Right? Definitely has the Yeah, the Mega Man kind of
slide to it. I feel like that's core to the
to the movement of the game. Yeah, And I will
say so, I've I've played the game before, but I
actually haven't played the latest build, like the final newest build.
The game, I guess we should say, is finally coming
out here on October seventh of twenty twenty five. There's
also a demo, which I was curious, folcause I know
you put that demo up originally, maybe you're GOO a
few months ago. Have you updated that or is that
still like an older version of the game, or are
you gonna take that down? What's up? What's up with
the demo?
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is definitely an internal debate. I had quite
a bit around, but I think where I've landed is
I'm going to update the demo to be parody with
the game. It is not presently prior to release, and
I'm not even sure if I'm gonna have time to
do it right at release, but I hope too. But uh,
if you're interested in the game and you're hesitant, it's
a big demo to be to be like transparent, it's
a good bit of the game, and I am going
to I just came around to the idea of like
why it feels wrong to pull it down like, which
I definitely at first was like maybe I should. It's like,
it's not that hard for me to the way I
designed them. I really just have to take a few
boxes unity and that's like and then I could push
out the demo, so I'm like, you know what, I
don't think it hurts. Yeah, really, you know, friends, hopefully
it helps rather than hurts.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. So the game's out October seventh, which
I mean, congratuate freaginglations it as hard as hell. As
as hard as your game is, it is maybe even
harder to make it. Well, it's definitely harder to make
a game, so congratulations. Uh what trying to think? What
year do you do? You remember the year month when
you when you started this thing in proper?
Speaker 2: I do, actually, So it's been about three and a
half years since I did the game jam that it
came out of, So I can't remember exactly the day,
but it was sometime around late April early May of
twenty twenty two that I did a game jam where
we made it a game that is essentially this but
way shitty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess the main differentiation between your
game and other platformers is the phasing mechanic, where there
are platforms and obstacles that are either black or white,
and then you like swap the color of your character
so that you, I guess what's the word you would
do is like interact or collide with those kind of
opposite colors. So it was that part of the game
jam was that initial premise.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I wanted to make a platformer, and the
game jam team was just me, my friend who was
by Bent Neatley, who does the music and continues to
did the music for the whole release. And then a
third fellow who I could just kind of knew through
doing a few game jams and haven't really kept up
much with his name's ever, and he actually is the
one that pitched that idea. He was like the theme
for that game jam was looping, which I think we
were thinking of like looping through colors. It actually in
the game jam, there's three colors that you rotate between.
It's black, white, and gray, which is way too hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it did it loop like like in that cycle
or could you choose like okay, I choose.
Speaker 2: To go which direction? I think I don't even remember.
Speaker 1: Actually that almost sounds like playing a rhythm game at
the same time as playing like a platform.
Speaker 2: Or like just swimming between two colors is hard enough.
And you know, when I went to make the full game,
I definitely thought about including that third color as some
extra challenge or something, but I just eventually was like,
it's I've made this way hard enough without adding yeah,
more more things.
Speaker 1: You know. So and that was in Unity as well,
that game Jam.
Speaker 2: That's correct? Yeah? Is it?
Speaker 1: Is it the same file that you built off of
or did you start a new product?
Speaker 2: But the I did prototype it once or twice after
after the game jam to try to kind of figure
out the physics better because I was pretty green, and
I mean I still am, but I've learned so much
over the last three years. That first game jam is
just super floaty, you know what I mean. And I've
like since then learned, oh real or it's not real physics.
It's fake video game physics to kind of you know,
like slam down when you're coming down and that sort
of thing feels better, and that's how most platformers work.
So it took me a few prototypes to kind of
land in the general direction. But the file, the file
that the final game really is is called like November
twenty twenty two or something like that. So that's where
I started the project. That a few more actual Unity projects.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, gotcha, that's cool. Yeah, I uh like, how
how do you finally get to the point because for
me this was such a harder thing too, of like
the last few months potion problem, All right, what am
I cutting? I'd need to finish this thing right now?
So how how are you? Because I haven't checked in
with you in like a few months, and I feel
like it sounded like, oh, you're raimed for the end
of this year, but like, I don't know, might slip
next year again, we'll see. So tell me about like
these last couple months for you and how you've kind
of I don't know if you've had to make any
big cuts or if you really just felt like, oh,
the game's in a really good place now, I don't
need any more worlds Like how have you come to
the decision of finally hit the button on October seventh?
Which is a very satisfying button to hit, I'll say
on Steam. I mean, I guess you've kind of done
know what the demo thing when you've released that too,
But it feels.
Speaker 2: Good, not the same. Yeah, I look forward to sharing
that feeling, but it's coming soon. But yeah, I think
I'll be honest, I think I just lost the thread. Well,
can you remind me of the question I got distracted
by the button pushing and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like in the last couple months, what has
led you to the realization of like, okay, the game
is finally ready to go?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So I think, like any creative project, I
just saw this Leonardo da Vinci quote somewhere else, like
literally ten or thirty minutes ago that like a creative
project is never done, it's just abandoned or whatever that
I don't even know if DaVinci really said that. It's
the internet, you know what I mean, Like I believe
it people he spoke Italian anyway, So I think I
kind of just was like, I have to be done
with this thing this year. We're coming up on three
and a half years, like I think November. I don't
even know. I can't do the math in my head.
I am at about three and a half years. It's
like I couldnot let this drag into the next year.
I mean I might have to, like I think I
told you, but I was like, I don't want to.
And at some point I just looked at what I
had and I was like, God, this is much more done.
Like maybe you can relate to this. But there have
been periods of time where I've had to kind of
do a lot of life stuff, like my real job
or my day job is busy, this or that. And
I came to a period where I had a little
more time to look at it, and I was like,
I think I can I think I can do this
by fall, and I'm gonna look at a specific time
and for me, that was I think the end of
August and if if at the end of August I
am good, I'm going to release it and early to
mid October, like if I feel like I can do it,
if i feel like I'm happy with where right that
such that even if it went out now it would
be okay or you know what I mean. And then
after that, I was like, Okay, that's the time period
I think I can do it. And then I'm like,
oh crap. Steam has an autumn sale from yeah, October
whatever until October sixth, and then they have next Fest
from October thirteenth through this. I'm like, hmm, well, I
think it's got to go right there.
Speaker 1: Smart, Yeah, that makes sense. So is the last couple
months then, like since that August deadline that you said forself,
like no more new content, it's just like polishing fixing
bugs at that point, and then like I guess more
marketing stuff at that point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's for me, I realized the game
is in pretty good shape. It's like just a lot
of polish, and like I think, you know, we talked
a lot about the gameplay, but I had this game
also has a story and and cut scenes. I mean,
maybe it feels almost wrong to call them cut scenes
because they are literally just two D pixel art sprites
that are you know, and then dialogue boxes. But but
it's I think that's yeah, but there are these cut scenes,
and for me, they're really important. And and I think
that stuff was a little rougher still, and and honestly,
there's still a few things that I'm trying to like
squeeze like in, especially for the endings right now, Like wow,
I think I'm really happy with the endings, but like
if I can get in and and and maybe make
this a different animation or whatever, So again, I kind
of like just decided it has to be this date.
And yeah, and so it's mostly little stuff, but there's
a lot of little stuff. And then like it's just
like I even now I'm like, oh crap, I found
one I don't know about you, but I could looking back.
There's so many design decisions I've made that are like,
we're short term gain at the expense of long term pain.
Speaker 1: Sure.
Speaker 2: It's like, for example, I have these NPCs that you
can talk to, and I wrote tons of dialogue for them,
and I'm really happy about that. But they have different colors.
Some of them are black and some of them are white,
and some of them have two eyes and some of
them have one eye. And so I have this code
that I just like hard coded in different places for
the sprite is this way, and they're like, they're like,
Portrait is this way, and I wish I had just
one of those things speak to the other rather than
hard coding them in two places.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I'm like, every once in a while, I'm playing
through the game, like, oh crap, that's a one eyed bot.
But is you know portrait is two eyes. Yeah, let
me re export this whole project to fix that one,
you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's probably just gonna be the
case for anyone in our position, where like we've done
some game jams, done like a little bit here there,
but like this kind of being how we're learning game development.
Through this, you know, this final first full game. Yeah,
there's so many things that's like, oh, yeah, I could
have been now that I am better at just the
basics of coding, Oh, that could have been so much
more efficient that like what is hundreds of lines of
code could have been like twenty now that I know
how this how.
Speaker 2: This stuff had one of those places be the definition
of that a lot, and then the other one just
pulls from it. But instead I'm you know what I mean,
Like it's I.
Speaker 1: Mean, I don't even think I really knew what scripts
were until like deep into my game, and that is
such a helpful thing. But man, I may meant I
was typing and copy pasting things over and over again.
But yeah, it's kind of how it goes. Yeah, you've
done a lot of game jams. Now I'm curious how, like,
I don't know, do you feel like that was helping
you kind of break up the monotony or like, I
don't know, if you're ever just sometimes you're in a
rut where it's like a couple months we're like, man,
this freaking bug is annoying me, or I just am
feeling a little lost. I don't know, did you feel
like that helped you like still stretch that muscle, but
at least like put your mind in a different place.
And also like, okay, I have a shorter time frame here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what it is, but I really
enjoy doing game jams. But I think I've chosen good
times to do them. I've gotten really good at being like, oh,
this would be a really good time for me to
do a game jam, and I am just like so focused,
like when we did the Chosen One. Part of the
reason I did that at that specific time and that
specific game jam was my wife was out of town
and my son, who did it with us, was like,
had you know, he and I just had a lot
of time. I didn't have a lot of work, and
so it was like, with my wife out of town,
that's all we'll do, you know what I mean? And
and yeah, I think it. I did that one also selfishly,
partly because I was like, if I get in that
mode of just like finishing and fixing and just doing
the things, maybe I can take that energy into finishing
this project. And also I do think it is a
little bit of like a palette cleanser and a reminder
of why oh, this is why it's fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, those generating those new ideas for the first time
is yeah, extremely exciting. I want to ask you about that. Actually, So,
your your son is obviously like a big into game development.
Now he's making all sorts of stuff. I think it
started with game builder garage. Maybe I don't know if
that was the first thing he did, but I remember
you talking about that on Switchheads, and now he's doing
stuff and obviously we worked with him on Chosen One,
and then I've followed him on Itch and I see
just like posting asset packs and all this stuff. So
I'm curious because obviously, I mean, he was quite a
bit younger than he is now obviously when you started
this problem. But has he had an influence at all,
like obviously play testing giving you like hey Dad, you
should change this thing, or this doesn't make sense, or
I don't know any anything that's come from him. I'm curious.
Speaker 2: Well, this isn't exactly what you're asking, but I love
this story and so I'm gonna share it.
Speaker 1: Please do.
Speaker 2: The story itself has a big origin point related to him.
So I'm just gonna tell this story real quick, and
then maybe I can also answer exactly more kind of
what you're saying, but so backing up like I guess
he's ten, so backing up approximately ten years ago, maybe
even more because he's almost eleven. When he was an infant,
he didn't sleep very well, and I was on night
duty pretty much, so I would try to get him
back to sleep. And that was a really rough period
of time, and I spent a lot of time in
a rocking chair in his room at this apartment we
lived in, just looking at these paper robots because we
had done sort of a sci fi theme for his
room and my and for his like baby shower. I
think it was that my brother and my sister in
law made these little paper robots as decorations and we
hung them in his room. I just sat there staring
at them, and I came up with names for them,
and then I came up with backstories for them, and
then I came up with there on this team, and
then this happened, and you know what I mean, just
like way more because that's all I could do. Yeah,
I was just sitting there olding this kid.
Speaker 1: Sorry, is this weaving into like you're telling him like
a bedtime story or you're just doing this just.
Speaker 2: Me in my head because he was not even one,
you know, he was just a baby, and I took
all those ideas and I thought, you know, I wrote
eventually I was like, maybe I'm gonna do something with these,
and that's where the story for this game is from.
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: But to answer your exact question, I mean, he has
been one of my biggest champions. Like I have a
little artifact back here, which given embarrassingly, is from a
few years ago, because that's where it's like, yeah, this
has taken me so long. Where he's like in his school,
like they had like what are the things you want
or hope for? You know, and he wrote like, I
hope my dad's game is successful.
Speaker 1: That is so cute.
Speaker 2: I know, right and so and yeah, and as he's
gotten better at stuff, he can talk really intelligently now,
Like I don't to age ten. I was playing as
many or more video games than him, but he knows
what hit boxes and colliders and you know, the collisions
and like like he can just talk about it because
he's knows how to do it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So now I actually want to go back
to the story you shared of the is happy who's
a protagonist of Monocram Heights, and then the other characters
that you have in there, which I don't know their
names at the moment, but are those characters that came
from that that those origin stories ten years ago? Then?
Is Happy one of those original feats?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's so cool. This little string of paper
robots that my family made had five robots on it.
And I don't want to really spoil because I actually
think the story in the game is slowly revealed in
a certain way. I don't want to spoil it too much.
But the major five characters, there's really three major characters,
but then there you'll see some other side ones. Yeah,
they are those those five robots.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, that was something that when I saw
the most recent trailer for the game, because now that
you have your release day of the new trailer up there,
and I was seeing like characters and little cut scenes
and like backgrounds and stuff that I haven't seen before
in the versions that I played. I was getting very
excited for that because you could talk to NPCs in
the versions I've played before, but yeah, I haven't seen
what that looks like now, And yeah, I wanted to
ask you more about that too, because I know environmentalism
is like a big thing for you, and that's one
of the I don't know, one of the themes I
guess you want to tackle here. But without going into
spoilers of like revealing things, curious, how how you just
implemented story into a game like this at all? Because
I feel like that you know, you probably had just
moving around jumping platforming for a long time before that
stuff really got implemented in there. So how did that
process go for you?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I want to shout out real quickly to Andrea Blythe,
who is a woman that I hired, a friend of
mine that I hired to help out with the narrative
and with writing. When I was kind of like this
is the gameplay, you know, it's solid, I want the
story to be something, she came in and helped me
kind of take all these ideas I had and like
come up with some different pitches for how we could
take it. And I actually took some of her pitches
and combined them and then we went went in that direction.
I think, I really, I mean, I consider myself a
writer and so it was like really important to me
any game I make has a story and has dialogue,
and I'm maybe I'm maybe too much because I love
to put in lots of words and stuff. But and
you know, you think about platformers aren't typically right, like
that's not normal. Like maybe Celeste kind of changed that,
yeah a little bit, but Mario and stuff is just
like there's a princess and you got a saver. You know,
there's not even we don't.
Speaker 1: Know now that we've got a movie. Now there's a
lot of dialogue, but that's deviating from where we started.
Speaker 2: So I think I wanted to kind of take what
Celeste did and and you know, continue. And so there
is NPC's on the levels that you can completely optionally
talk to like you don't have. Actually at the very beginning,
it kind of railroads you into talking the ones that
tell you how to play the game, but otherwise it's
all optional. And then I have the game broken into
what I'm calling zones. You can use the word world.
I call them zones. And in each zone there is
a story beat, which is I don't think this is
a spoiler. They are all flashbacks, but there are things
that happen in the present moment as well, and in
the present moment you have dialogue choices, and I the
choices do matter. I will say there are cool they
will send you in a certain.
Speaker 1: Path.
Speaker 2: There are multiple endings depending on your dialogue tradings.
Speaker 1: That's really cool. So would you have to like start
the game from zero to experience those different endings then?
Or can you kind of like I'm gonna start from
zone three now and then like pick different things right there?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I might need to if enough people like care, right,
then I might have to come up with some way
to end game allow you to do that you would
without giving too much away. It's hard for me to
decide what to say here.
Speaker 1: You don't have to reveal anything if you don't want to.
Speaker 2: It's funny though, Like, no, I think people care about
this though, right, like because some people are like number one.
I will say that there's no right or wrong ending,
like you know, sometimes I feel like in games like
you get the bad ending, or you get the good ending,
or you get the non canon ending. There are three endings,
and I think they are all.
Speaker 1: Appropriate like satisfying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'd like to think at least though, I'd
be curious to what people say because honestly, like I
did a lot of play testing on the gameplay, but
the story has always been really close to me, and
Andrey and I have worked on it together, but like
I haven't like user tested the story, yeah, because I'm like,
you know, what if people don't like it, I like it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So, especially what you're saying there of there's a lot
of dialogue that is optional. I mean, that's going to
be extremely hard to play test any because you don't know, like, okay,
exactly what lines of dialogue did you see unless you
like build it into the game where you can, like,
you know, get a file export that tells you, like
exactly what people saw. But even then you don't know
if they actually write it or like processed it. So
that's a that's a tricky thing, but that is that
is exciting. But it is a funny thing too. You
mentioned there of like bigger games like huge triple as
that have, you know, the day they come out, there's
already an IGN guide that tells you how to do
all the different endings and stuff, but that you don't
necessarily have that luxury for you know, a smaller indie
games not gonna necessarily have, you know, all the big
news sites with their guides on how to do all
these different endings. So but I think that as the
mystery too, Like people are gonna have to find that
stuff out for themselves unless you put it into the
game and like an actual way that people can track
I guess.
Speaker 2: Right, And if you if you're out there listening to
this and that's important to you, you can message me.
I'll tell you. I guess how to get what endings.
It's kind of obvious. I think, like I tried to
make it so that like it's you can pick up
on it, if that, If that makes any sense, I'm
not trying to be vague. But I also think that
the story is cool part to explore and experience without
knowing much. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm very excited to experience that part of it,
because I that's not really what I was playtesting when
I played the game year or two ago. Going back
to some gameplay a little bit. One thing I want
to ask you about is I think the verticality of
this game is really interesting a novel and that a
lot of games do have, like you know, you're kind
of going up and up and up, but I feel
like in this game, you're you know, going horizontally for
a bit, whether that's right or left, and then you
go just to tine a bit up a few platforms up,
and then you start going the opposite direction. It makes
kind of like an S shape, but I feel like
there isn't like some huge big divider between those layers.
So you can often you know, be going for a
tricky jump fall and then you'll fall to like a
previous part of the level. Now maybe you've got a
checkpoint you can just you know, zip back up that
next one. And then sometimes you also use that to like, Okay,
now I'm gonna jump down and grab a collectible that
I couldn't reach before, but now I could. But I
think that's such a fascinating thing to me, is like
how close those layers are, and it makes the levels
feel like super dense and compact in a really interesting way.
And I'm curious if that's something that you kind of planned,
if you were going for, or if it just kind
of happened with the level design and then you kind
of just obviously built off of it as you saw
that that was kind of how it was going to
work out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally just happened. I think it happened for two
different reasons, one of which is that it's really interesting.
If it was just a horizontal platformer, it would be fine,
but with the phasing the color swapping mechanic, it's almost
more interesting if you have to go through things right,
and you have to like kind of pass through vertically,
because if it's just horizontal, we can put you know,
barriers and things that you might have to pass between.
But that kind of it just sort of naturally lended
itself towards going up because of that, And I don't
remember if that came first. I don't remember even honestly,
don't remember how it was in the game Jam, how
it became a little bit more vertical, and then I
really leaned into it with the full game. But simultaneously
with Bent Neatly, who did the music, we came up
with this idea of as you climb, and this got
abandoned in the full game, but as you climb in
the game Jam, the music evolves, so like he had
a base just like drum track that you hear at
the bottom, and then you know, as you got to
a certain height, the bass would kick in, okay, and
then as you got to another height, you know, the
synth would or whatever like and and so, and that
added a lot and you know, we definitely considered keeping that,
but it was like that's a lot of work for
a bunch of levels, right, to make every song have
different tracks that all looked that kind of come in
and out. And also it was kind of predicated on
the game jam where you would often fall and there
were no checkpoints, you know what I mean, the music
would go back to just the drum, like no, I
fell down to the bottom, which was not very user friendly,
but was you know, is like extra painful, right, and
so yeah, like it's like, well, we gotta have checkpoints
and we gotta just have the music good music. That
doesn't that change.
Speaker 1: That's a fun thing that can happen to because of
the phase mechanic. Like sometimes, as I said, you're going
for that typical jump, you fall a layer, but if
your color that you have, if you don't have the
correct color selected, you might just keep falling and falling
and tumbling all the way down. Yeah, and obviously once
again you have a checkpoint somewhere that'll help you out.
But I don't know, I like that just you kind
of remember like, oh, yeah, I remember ten minutes ago
and I was stuck on this part. I like fell
back there for a moment, a little bit of nostalgia
or something. But it's it's been fun for me, like
in playing the different versions and just like really didn't
treating it as like a speed run game now, like
on the earlier levels that I have played a couple
of times. Now, maybe they've had little variations here there,
but even just like knowing those mechanics is the first
time you play it, it is quite the like mind
to right of just trying to get those phasing down.
So that's also something I'm curious about. Like obviously the
like the color of your character changes, but I feel
like that's also something as the developer, you could get
so in the weeds of you're so used to it.
But I don't know how much did you have to
really work on that or like adjust things just to
make sure people could really grasp I think.
Speaker 2: It is really a weird mechanic, even for people who
are really good at video games at first, right, Like
I've definitely at conventions and with friends who play tested it,
seen the gamut of people who get it quickly or
don't you know what I mean. And I think also
a lot of times people who have more experience with
platformers and that sort of thing tend to get it faster,
but even people who are decently experienced sometimes and because
it is just different, you have you have to start
thinking about the space a little bit differently, right, the
virtual space, that is. But yeah, I think pretty instantly,
you know, the game Jam that we came out of
was also themed around black and white, So okay, I
I think it was just always black and white, right,
and then, like I said, originally gray as well, but
so I just took that forward. There was a brief
moment where I questioned it, like could it be purple
and green or whatever? Would that be more readable or whatever?
And I think I just decided to know, like I'm
just going to stick with this. But the tricky things
were like a little bit of feedback early on, of
like I put a white outline on the black guy
and a black outline on the white version of him,
and sometimes some people found that a little confusing. And
then when I had an artist early on draw some
some platforms and stuff, a lot of artists, i mean
pixel art in general, are not going to use hard
black and white, right, like they're they're going to use
softer tones of white. And I kept the first few
times you made platforms, I was like, it needs to
be more white. It needs to read more white. That
reads great, And he'd be like, well, that's white, you know,
and I'm like, no, it needs to be like f
f f f white, you know what I mean. Like
and but I but I also, like, was pretty a
novice to pixelart myself at the time, so I see
their point, and I think we kind of ended up
meeting the mill because now I would be like, yeah,
we don't want it to be too white. That's that's
bright and harsh, you know. So those are some of
the challenges of that. And I think for some people
it is just too hard and too confusing. Like, I mean,
this is not a game for everybody. That's something I
decided pretty early on too.
Speaker 1: Right, you got to be into platformers to want to
sign up for it in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I mean you might think about this too,
making games right where you're like I do, I'm not
trying to make a game for everybody, because those games
exist and they're already doing well, and I'm not gonna
be able to market a game for everybody, right, Like, yeah,
it's easier when you're in a position like us to
to try to find a smaller niche or to lean
into that a little bit. I think, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, going back to the art, because I see
you all the time on discord aceprites opened ninety ninety
percent of the day. I feel like when I look
at your when I see your name there, what was it?
Because you obviously mentioned the music, and you had some
help with the writing and story, and obviously I think,
as as far as I know, you've done like all
the coding for the game, like all the design and
level design and stuff. But how about the art. What's
the balance on that? Like how much of it have
you done versus your artists there?
Speaker 2: Well, I did actually hire a couple of people to
help with programming it first too. When I first started,
I wasn't very good, and I got a couple of
lessons from somebody who helped write some code, which I'm
not even sure if it's really in the game anymore,
but like I still credit him because it did, you
know what I mean. And then I did hire some
somebody else to help me fix one problem that I
was really stuck on.
Speaker 1: What's that? Can you share what that is? That problem?
Speaker 2: Though? Yeah, platforms. What's really funny is that, like I've
now dabbled in GOODO and moving platforms. In GOODO, they
just work. I know how to make them work. They
work great with with depending on what you're doing and using,
at least what my limited GIDO experience, probably I would
run into this same problem there once. I'm like, I'm
trying to write custom physics and stuff, but in unity,
I just ran into this problem that, like every tutorial
I found worked a little bit but caused this problem.
I mean, I'm not answering your question about art now,
but I'm I'm talking about programming. But like another thing
that really was hard and is still hard is the
darn black and white thing. Like half of my stuff
has to turn off, you know, on a frame and
how the stuff has to turn on, and that causes
so many weird issues.
Speaker 1: Like hmm, yeah to the game ever, like stutter when
you would do that because it's so many things triggering
at once.
Speaker 2: No, but it's more like, oh crap, I need that
to cannonball to explode. But so I can't turn off
its collider because it needs to know that it's hitting
the wall, but it can't collide with the player. So
I need to really think about how to write all
these I mean, it's not even that complicated. It's just
stuff that when you're a beginner is like extra complicated.
Speaker 1: Right, There's like different endings to all these props in
the world. It's like what color they art when they
finish it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But to go back to the art, yeah, I
was I was not very good at pixel art, but
I was trying to learn when the game started, and
so I hired a couple of people to do art.
You know. I sometimes do a really rough version of
it and send it to them, and then they would
improve on it. And then I mean I almost every
piece of art, with the exception of the story backgrounds,
I have touched up as I've gotten better, and as
I've looked at the art and been like, oh, they
left a stray pixel here, you know, sometimes years later
realizing that too, right, like left I stared at it.
I'm like, I don't know how I missed that. That
frame of animation has you know, the leg wrong or whatever.
But I'm seeing it now. So, and I've gotten a
lot better. And at this point, like I was telling you,
I kind of saved some of the endings and story
stuff till the end. I was like, I now can
do those animation Whereas like I need a new animation
for the ending. I knew I needed like ten and
I was like, do I need to hire somebody? I'm like,
not anymore. And now I've got it. I got it great.
I mean, I'm not trying to be like, Ooh, I'm
the best pixel artist, because I'm not, But like I
think I can confidently take the existing assets and like
make a new animation and stuff like that, and that's
a big step for me because I've gotten a lot
better at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I'm assume that most of
these people that you worked with or hired weren't really
communicating with each other. It's more just like you kind
of being the mastermind of it, the puppeteers, so to speak.
And I feel like with the game gen that we did,
like I feel like you were such a great leader
in that and you know there's four other people, but
I feel like you just got everyone together and all
that worked really well together. Great communicator, very open feedback
and all that stuff too. Do you have a favorite
thing though, like when you're working on the game, is
or a favorite part for you?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: Is it level designed? Do you actually find that you
love the coding? Like, what is your favorite part?
Speaker 2: Level design? You said at first? Yeah, I think, like
like I said, when you said, oh, what have I done?
Speaker 1: Just me?
Speaker 2: And I mean, I guess I haven't really done that
even just me, because I've had people play test it
and I've watched them and I've taken their feedback and
I've adjusted it. But the level design is the one
thing that like is all me. Like I really enjoyed
the process of creating the new mechanics combining them. I
took a very mathematical approach in this game for some reason,
maybe because it's robotic themed and stuff like that, in
terms of the levels and how they progress and what
elements are in them. And I think just I could,
I probably I had to be at some point, like
we got to stop making levels because people aren't gonna
want to play Fast World eight or nine, you know
what I mean. Like so, but that was probably the
part that I really enjoy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that's maybe a dangerous one then
for that to be your favorite thing, because that easily
just like rolls into this huge scope issue. Whe're like, well,
I could just keep making levels all day long, but
then okay, well now I need new zones, Now I
need to do art, No, I need to How is
the story going to work across these things? So at
some point you just got to say, okay, fine, I'll
stop and maybe you can do more later in a
bonus way or something. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, that's uh, that's
did you find that? Were there any worlds or zones
that just didn't end up working you just had to
chop them where you just felt like a pacing wise,
this one's good, but like I just want the game
to be tighter and more focused. Like, how did that
that go for you? And did it? Was it tricky
after you spent hours and hours and weeks and weeks
making a level and have to get rid of it.
Did that ever happen in a way that was heartbreaking?
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely three major mechanics that I have levels
that I actually think are pretty solid levels, which I
think you even might remember the wind the level.
Speaker 1: I do remember the one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I cut that and I cut two other mechanics
that I designed full levels for, and the wind level especially,
I feel like I polished quite a bit and then
just cut it. And that one feels a little sad,
But I actually, to your point, like I might, it
might it might show up in an updated you know,
as a bonus thing at some point if I ever
get around to that. Yeah, no promises, but it is
it is, you know, something I might do. And then
there are some variations like I think, like it's just iteration,
right like where when I first was making these levels,
there wasn't a lot of consistency, but then at some
point I decided, Okay, every level has to have four checkpoints,
and so I and every level should be each checkpoint
should be roughly this far apart. Maybe later levels that
they're longer segments, you know what I mean, like and
and some of that was just feel, but at some
point then I was like, Okay, I gotta do this,
and so a few levels got severely changed because of that,
where I was like, oh, this level has three checkpoints,
I need to lengthen it, or this one is way
too long, you know what I mean, needs to be
shortened or whatever, and those sort of things, but those didn't,
those never felt quite sad. Usually most of the times
the improvements feel good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah. One thing I love too about I feel
like most of the levels, if my memory is correct here,
is that the last like little romp up to the
actual exit is like really easy, so you feel like
you got through all the challenge and you can kind
of just like blast through over to the exit here
for just like some easy platforms up, which I feel
like is a nice little little dessert I guess at
the end of each level, which is Yeah.
Speaker 2: One thing I kind of came around to, and it's
not exactly true on every level, but it's pretty true
for most levels is that with four checkpoints, that essentially
makes five segments right between them, and one segment on
each level is pretty darn hard. I just tried to
make one be like that's the challenging segment. I want
to have two or three that are super hard. I
want to have just one, and usually it shouldn't be
the last one, right like that, that should be a
little bit of a downhill, right like slide, So.
Speaker 1: That's good for the pacing of it. Do you put
you on the spot here? Do you have a favorite
zone or a favorite level.
Speaker 2: Oh, man, I think it's the last one. I I think, uh,
And I don't want to say why because I think
it's a little it's just a little different than all
the rest of them. And also, like I said, I
mechanically approached the game. I really like, mathematically broke down
how the levels work, and so level nine is where
everything is combined every mechanic is in it, or Zone nine,
I should say, is where every mechanic is in every level.
And that feels really like, oh, you know, it's like,
this is what we're building up to, and here it is.
Speaker 1: So that's great. That's that. I don't know if you
played in Neon White, but they kind of did that too,
where the fine every world has its own new kind
of main mechanic to it, and then the final one
is combining everything and it just feels amazing and it
feels like, yeah, it's so rewarding after you spend all
this time to learn all this stuff and maybe you
haven't seen one of them in a while.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, told them to come back or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. A question for you on marketing
it because I've been extremely off social media so I
haven't seen if you've been posting much. But what has
marketing been like for you? And is that something you
enjoy or is that we're like, Okay, I just have
to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably the thing I am the worst at.
The example I always tell everyone is so you can
see behind me in the video these puppets right here,
I used to make puppets. I did it primarily as
a performance thing. I was a puppeteer, and I mostly
made them to perform with. But I also did a
couple of like craft shows and made puppets to sell.
And I remember somebody calling me out because I convinced
somebody not to buy a puppet from me. Like, that's
how good at marketing I am. That is the example
I give, Like I I think it's just I think,
like a lot of people, especially in this day and age,
where everybody's you know, trying to market themselves and you're
a brand and so yourself, that just doesn't feel authentic.
And I've never liked pressuring people, and I've never liked
being like, hey, look at me, you know, so it's
really hard for me to bridge those things and and
and find a way that feels authentic and doesn't feel
like I'm just posting a bunch of stuff. So I'm not.
I've not done a very good job of it, to
be completely honest, and I've tried, and I've pushed myself
and I'm trying in these and I will continue to.
But I will you've got advice or lessons or whatever,
like I'm open minded on that stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can help you much because
that's also something I didn't enjoy. And you know, I
probably should have done a lot more marketing before launching
Potion Problem if I wanted it to be more financially successful,
but I think I just wanted to be done with
it when when I was at.
Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I think, well, like I think one of
the things that I tell myself is also like the
success is not necessarily financial success, right, And I think
for you it's probably the same, right, it's finishing it
or there are different levels of success or different aspects
of it, and financial success is one piece of it.
And I don't think financial success is very likely on
your first game, right, like your.
Speaker 1: First visuals with how many games are on Steam on
a daily basis at this point.
Speaker 2: Right, So I think it's more about obviously that we
shouldn't use that as an excuse to not do it,
which is easy to do. But I think there were
different parts or different time periods over the last three
years where I've really like needed quote unquote this game
to do well for financially, Like when I was working
a job that I really was unhappy in for example,
whereas like this will get me out, you know what
I mean, And that's not really a healthy or helpful
at either, right to Like, so I think now that
I have a job where I'm happy, I would be
great if the game made a lot of money, but
that's you know, not that's not success right for me?
Right now?
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that sounds no. I mean, I just love
I was self aware you are of that. It feels
very healthy, uh, the way the way you set it
up there, and that was something I wanted Dimension dudes.
I feel like my one part that I remember a
big part of this development was when you were doing
the monthly I think it was monthly devlogs, right, And
I think that was because you you were working a
full time job and then you left that and then
you were kind of putting a lot of time into
the game, and then you had to get a job again,
and then at some point in there, like Switchheads, you
were on there and not off there. So just in
terms of like how much time you have on a
daily basis, But those devlogs, I really love those. And
I don't know how much those move the needle in
terms of like the marketing side of it, but even
for me personally, just like to have that and feel like,
oh man, so many of these feelings you're having. I'm
feeling too working on my project and stuff, and just
how personal it was and just to see those updates
was really fun. So I really enjoyed those those devlogs.
Speaker 2: Those are cool, yeah, And I think maybe you can
relate to this too as somebody who's making a game,
you know, like I did higher out parts, but it
still is me at the end of the day, like
making the decisions and telling people what to do, and
it's really my game, right, Like ultimately, like you're doing
so many things that like it's really like all this
time that you're spending marketing or especially if it's stuff
that you're not sure that it even matters, like posting
on social media or writing devlogs. Like, it's really nice
to hear you say that, because I would write these
things and I would share them, and then I'd just
be like, did I just waste a lot of time
that I could have been working on the game when
I have limited time because I'm working a job, and
you know what I mean, like writing this and thinking
of this idea and sharing it, and that's kind of
where I landed of and that's where I've also kind
of like, especially for this first game, of like I
just need to make the game, like that's that's without that,
like you have nothing.
Speaker 1: So yeah, definitely, I mean I think inherently too, like
if you go on to make other games, release more
games on Steam, the fact that you have something else
on Steam and people can be like, oh, whatever this
project is, click on the developer name, Oh there's another
game here. I'm gonna check this game out. Like I
feel like there's a lot of that starts happening naturally
over time too, once you build up a bit more
of that.
Speaker 2: But absolutely, yeah, I mean I was talking to somebody
else about this or write a friend of mine and Dan,
you know Dan, and he was like, yeah, you think
of him as like lightning rods, Like, not all of
your lightning rods are gonna get attract lightning, but the
more you put out there, one of them might hit,
you know. Yeah, And I liked that metaphor that he used,
So that's how it's like, that's why I'm like, I've
learned so much from doing this. It would be I mean,
it wouldn't be stupid to quit, but it would be like,
in some ways, I'm like, it would be stupid to
not try one more time, you know what I mean.
Be a little more efficient, be a little bit more knowledgeable,
you know. But I also totally understand why people make
one game and then they're like, that was a lot
of work, and I never want to do that again,
you know.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmm uh Okay, I I don't think I have
any more like specific game questions, but I guess other
than yeah, you kind of already hinted that maybe like
post launch you might maybe do some more levels or something.
But what like right now, obviously we're a few days
out from the release date. In an ideal world, what
does like the post launch look like for this for you,
Like maybe a couple bug fixes, maybe you want to
do a bit more or you kind of like ready
to move on and try something else where you are
right now.
Speaker 2: It's funny because if you'd asked me that question like
two or three weeks ago, I would have been like,
I'm gonna do the bug fixes and I'm going to
move on. But something about being knee deep in it
right now, I'm like, maybe I'll do one small content update,
But I also could see myself really changing my mind,
you know what I mean. And some of it is
like if and I don't expect like hundreds of thousands
of people to buy my game or anything like that,
far from it, but like some of it is, well
what happens, you know, like is there people who are
playing it that where it feels like if I put
out a content update there would actually be people who
would enjoy it, or have the people that have played
it played it and moved on, And it's kind of
silly to do that. So I think it's a little
bit of gauging that. But I definitely want to at
least do a handful of updates to fix things. And
there are there are things on my list right now
that are like small, polishy things that I'm like, I'll
package that in with a bug fix update if I can,
you know what I mean, like like little quality of
life things. I don't even know what they are off
the top of my head, but there's a handful of
things where I've been like, yeah, that would be good
if if I did that, but it's not critical, and
so that could fit in with a bug fix update
at one point one or whatever. You know, we'll see
if we ever get to the two point zero. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, and then you mentioned also like maybe revamping that demo.
I guess just updating that demo you have to have
something that's a bit more reflective of the final product there,
which because I I forget what that what the demo
is currently is, it just.
Speaker 2: Can't really mean it's really meaning. Actually it is about
a third of the game, okay, yeah, which is a lot.
And that's why I was definitely hesitating. It was like,
is this too much to give away for free? That's
why I'm like, if you're if you're on the fence,
check it out. You know, I don't think it's that
hard for me to update it, So it just kind
of makes sense for me to keep that at parody
every time I do a bug fix, unless it doesn't
affect the demo, you know, So I kind of plan
on continuing to support the demo as long as I'm
supporting the game. But if there are content updates and
stuff like that, that's not going to go in the demo. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then how about so obviously game jams. I'm
sure you plan to do a lot more of those,
But I've found, for sure, especially in that last year
of making Potion problem, the amount of intrusive thoughts I
had to push away of, like, well, I have a
cool game idea and really work on this, Like are
you just bubbling with those right now, or are you
like trying your hardest to like dig a hole, throw
them in the hottle and bury it up.
Speaker 2: I definitely am bubbling with those. And I think doing
the game jam with you and the game jam I
did prior to that, both of those inspired me. I mean,
I mean I wouldn't even mind returning to that idea,
like that was a cool idea. Yeah, But also like
I think I found myself. It's kind of funny because
I think game jams will do that to you. Like
my son and I both after one of the game jams,
We're both like sitting here working on new ideas, like
and then I'm like wait a minute, like, I this
is dumb.
Speaker 1: Yeah. My rule was like as far as I'll go
is I'll put things on a Google doc, but I'm
not allowed to open a new game maker project.
Speaker 2: Do an art for like the game. And then I
was like whoa, Like stop, you know this is cool,
but like let's let's let's slow a roll up.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely don't know, uh exactly, I have
what I'll do next, but I have a lot of ideas. Yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 1: Uh so as we wrap up on monochrom Heights here,
any I don't know, do you have any final lesson
or a final funny story or a funny glitch in
the game, Like, I don't know any one good final
anecdote for us.
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I think it's just I mean this, well,
maybe a couple things real briefly, like the the glitch
that just won't go away. It's like I've had this
cannonball glitch in the game and I fixed it, and
I've tried to fix it and I fixed it in
multiple different ways, and then just yesterday, I think it
was maybe two days ago, I realized that the fix
I was implementing it only works in the editor and
doesn't work in the build, because I was playing the
game and it happened, and I'm like, what the heck,
And I went to the editor and I'm like, it's fixed,
and then I just was like, wait a minute, I
think this is something is you know what I mean,
if you ever had that problem, that is a really
frustrating problem to have where something works in the engine
but doesn't it work in your builds, And so I
basically had to redesign a solution differently that at least
I think is working. And that was just the other day,
so that was like a little stressful. But also it's
not that big of a deal. It's not a glitch
that like really matter. It's just a visual thing. I
mean it does basically the canball will fire twice sometimes
if you respawn it just the right time and it's
firing sequence and it has two cannonballs, and I'm like
and it looks ugly and it okay, it just kind
of well.
Speaker 1: At least your game is hard, so if that happens,
people are like, oh, it's just a hard game.
Speaker 2: So that one is for us is like frustrating and
funny to me at the same time. But I also
feel like, I don't know, there are some glitches that
have been around for a while, and as I've gotten
better at programming and coding, like I'm just so much
better at bug fixing now and debugging and that sort
of thing. Like, so there are some like that one,
for example, and another glitcher two that had been in
the game for a really long time that I hadn't
even messed with because they're just kind of minor and rare,
where when I finally sat down within the last month
or two to try to fix them, I'm just like, oh,
that's what it is. And it's like I tried to
fix this a year ago for like a week straight
and couldn't figure it out, and here I am in
one hour like identifying and solving it, you know, And
so maybe there's a lesson there of Like that's another
reason I'm like I got to just make a second game,
because I'm not saying I'm great at any of these things,
because I'm really not, but I have leveled up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely right on. That's that's great to hear.
And then just one last question for you, and this
is a selfish one because I don't get to listen
to you on a weekly basis on a podcast anymore.
What have you been playing lately? Any gaming highlights of
anything you've played last I know you've been way too
busy just working on Monochrome, especially in the finish line here,
But what have you been playing?
Speaker 2: I have like been putting off playing games I was
in the last few months, Like I bought Doggie Kung
Bonanza and I didn't touch it, and my son played
a lot of it, and I was like, no, I
can't play that. And then I broke down and I
was like, I have to play something, like I can't
deny myself of one of my fits hobbies, like just
because so I picked up Chickery nice. I love playing Chickery.
And then Silk Song got announced like last minute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're a big hollow Night guy, right, you love.
Speaker 2: Hollow Knight pan Yeah, Like, and that's very inspirational to me.
And so I was like, well, I can't. I can't
avoid silk Songs. So the two games I've been playing
quite a decent amount of somehow on top of all
this is Chickory and Silk Song.
Speaker 1: Nice. Nice. Okay, I don't want to get any spoilers
out there for Silk Song, but I'll maybe I'll ask
you off cast where you're at in the game because
I'm curious. But now that, Yeah, Silk Song was super good.
And yeah, Chickery, I love chickry. What I think I
was made in game Maker actually, which has always been
inspirational for me, like I can't believe this is possible,
and game Maker like there's so many things I need
to learn. Clearly, I thought this engine was limited, but
I see game like that and I'm like, my mind
is just blown.
Speaker 2: Yeah, both that and wander Song, which is the main
developers previous game or game Maker.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. All right. So October seventh, Monochrome Heights
is out. If people want, they can also play the demo,
I guess. So, you know, obviously you're not a big
marketing guy, so let's also help you, hope by maybe
going to the social media's throw alike or a comment
on your stuff. Where should people go to support you
and the game in general?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my social media accounts and you know, my
presence and discorder anywhere else is p d YX is
what I go by. Sometimes websites require you to have
more than four characters, so a lot of places I
am p d Yx one, two three, and then the
name of my game studio is one Frog Games, and
I have an account for that on most places too,
so yeah.
Speaker 1: Right on. Well, Patrick, thank you so much for joining
me this, like I said, a long time coming to
get you over here on side Quest. This has been
a joy, a pleasure. It's always very feel like, very
cathartic for me too to just hear the development of
your game and how it kind of mirrors things I've
seen in my life too, So thank you for finally
joining me here. Thank you everyone for listening, and we
will see you again next time. Bye bye,