1 00:00:01,159 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to a side Quest Bonus episode. My 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:06,839 name is Dyl Muss and I've been joined by a 3 00:00:06,919 --> 00:00:10,160 very special guest here, Patrick Nisley of one Frog Games, 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,119 here to talk about his game, Monochrom Heights. Patrick, We've 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:15,119 been friends for many years. I've been on your podcast 6 00:00:15,519 --> 00:00:17,679 or ex podcast ish in Away a few times, and 7 00:00:17,719 --> 00:00:19,800 so it's great to have you over here. Finally, how 8 00:00:19,839 --> 00:00:20,800 are you feeling today? 9 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm doing pretty good. Thank you so much, Dylan 10 00:00:24,359 --> 00:00:27,239 for having me. I'm, like you said, I've known you 11 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:32,280 for a while and I'm you know, really thankful that 12 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,000 you asked me to come and do this, to you know, 13 00:00:35,119 --> 00:00:37,079 be a part of this. Thank you. M M. 14 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, this is gonna be a fun episode really, 15 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,799 all about just Monicroam Heights, the game that you've been making, 16 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:44,119 and just you and your development and your history making 17 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,399 games and that kind of fun stuff. I guess the 18 00:00:46,439 --> 00:00:48,399 origin story for people like me and you met a 19 00:00:48,399 --> 00:00:51,520 few years ago. You were part of these super Switchheads podcasts, 20 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,280 and you're still involved in the community. You're still in 21 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:54,759 the podcast every once in a while. You Hee's not 22 00:00:54,799 --> 00:00:57,240 a main host anymore, and I just love you guys 23 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,000 podcast and I just took my shot. It's like, hey, 24 00:01:00,039 --> 00:01:02,439 it's kind of come on the podcast one time and 25 00:01:02,479 --> 00:01:03,840 you guys had me on there, and then you know, 26 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,680 I was on there a couple more times. David has 27 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:07,760 been over here on side Quest once, so it's fine. 28 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:10,560 It's great to finally have you on here as well. 29 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,159 So and then since then, like me and you just 30 00:01:13,239 --> 00:01:15,560 kind of talk about game development, checking in on things. 31 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,280 We did a game gen earlier this year, which I 32 00:01:17,519 --> 00:01:20,079 shouted out many times on side Quest. So it's been 33 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:21,959 a fun journey. Eve though we've never met in person, 34 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,920 it feels like it feels like we have. 35 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, and also just like 36 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,959 a little life lesson there to shoot your shot, like 37 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,400 reach out to people like I am not good at that, 38 00:01:32,719 --> 00:01:38,719 and anytime somebody like he tells that an anecdote like that, 39 00:01:38,799 --> 00:01:42,280 I'm always reminded of, like what's the worst people can say? 40 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: No? You know, yeah, Usually it's just you just get ghosted, 41 00:01:45,599 --> 00:01:48,359 which is like it's fine, not just my life of no, 42 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:54,040 but yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's let's talk about your 43 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,640 game of it here. So Monokrom Heights is a platformer. 44 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:01,079 I mean you've done, you've been at many, I guess conferences, 45 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,079 these kinds of things you've shown off the game. You 46 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,319 obviously wrote all the text on your Steam page, so 47 00:02:05,359 --> 00:02:07,879 I'm sure you have the elevator pitch down to a science. 48 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,199 But do you want to give it here? What is 49 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:10,240 Monochro Mice? 50 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I say it is a tough as nails 51 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:19,039 two D pixel art platformer, and it's a pure platformer. 52 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,319 There's no action element like you think about like Mario 53 00:02:22,599 --> 00:02:27,280 shooting fireballs or damaging enemies. This is all about straight 54 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,800 up platforming. And then the sort of more gamer pitch 55 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,120 that I have for people that are more familiar with 56 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:36,240 video games and not. You actually need to be pretty 57 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,120 familiar with video games for what I just said too. 58 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,240 But is it's Ikaruga meets Celeste with a Mega Man esthetic? 59 00:02:45,199 --> 00:02:47,680 Is the other elevator pitch for you? 60 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,199 Speaker 1: Right? Definitely has the Yeah, the Mega Man kind of 61 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,199 slide to it. I feel like that's core to the 62 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,080 to the movement of the game. Yeah, And I will 63 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,400 say so, I've I've played the game before, but I 64 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,360 actually haven't played the latest build, like the final newest build. 65 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,039 The game, I guess we should say, is finally coming 66 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,759 out here on October seventh of twenty twenty five. There's 67 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,479 also a demo, which I was curious, folcause I know 68 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,919 you put that demo up originally, maybe you're GOO a 69 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,280 few months ago. Have you updated that or is that 70 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,599 still like an older version of the game, or are 71 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:16,199 you gonna take that down? What's up? What's up with 72 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:16,560 the demo? 73 00:03:16,759 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is definitely an internal debate. I had quite 74 00:03:19,159 --> 00:03:22,280 a bit around, but I think where I've landed is 75 00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:25,439 I'm going to update the demo to be parody with 76 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:29,240 the game. It is not presently prior to release, and 77 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,039 I'm not even sure if I'm gonna have time to 78 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,360 do it right at release, but I hope too. But uh, 79 00:03:34,599 --> 00:03:37,400 if you're interested in the game and you're hesitant, it's 80 00:03:37,439 --> 00:03:42,520 a big demo to be to be like transparent, it's 81 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,680 a good bit of the game, and I am going 82 00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:47,680 to I just came around to the idea of like 83 00:03:47,719 --> 00:03:52,960 why it feels wrong to pull it down like, which 84 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,960 I definitely at first was like maybe I should. It's like, 85 00:03:56,319 --> 00:03:59,120 it's not that hard for me to the way I 86 00:03:59,159 --> 00:04:01,520 designed them. I really just have to take a few 87 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:07,319 boxes unity and that's like and then I could push 88 00:04:07,319 --> 00:04:08,960 out the demo, so I'm like, you know what, I 89 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,240 don't think it hurts. Yeah, really, you know, friends, hopefully 90 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:14,560 it helps rather than hurts. 91 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,720 Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. So the game's out October seventh, which 92 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,319 I mean, congratuate freaginglations it as hard as hell. As 93 00:04:21,319 --> 00:04:22,879 as hard as your game is, it is maybe even 94 00:04:22,879 --> 00:04:24,759 harder to make it. Well, it's definitely harder to make 95 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,439 a game, so congratulations. Uh what trying to think? What 96 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,120 year do you do? You remember the year month when 97 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,480 you when you started this thing in proper? 98 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:35,079 Speaker 2: I do, actually, So it's been about three and a 99 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,319 half years since I did the game jam that it 100 00:04:40,439 --> 00:04:45,000 came out of, So I can't remember exactly the day, 101 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,560 but it was sometime around late April early May of 102 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:56,279 twenty twenty two that I did a game jam where 103 00:04:56,319 --> 00:04:58,240 we made it a game that is essentially this but 104 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:00,920 way shitty. 105 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess the main differentiation between your 106 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,199 game and other platformers is the phasing mechanic, where there 107 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,120 are platforms and obstacles that are either black or white, 108 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:14,399 and then you like swap the color of your character 109 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,879 so that you, I guess what's the word you would 110 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,720 do is like interact or collide with those kind of 111 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,319 opposite colors. So it was that part of the game 112 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:24,720 jam was that initial premise. 113 00:05:25,079 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I wanted to make a platformer, and the 114 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,480 game jam team was just me, my friend who was 115 00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:36,879 by Bent Neatley, who does the music and continues to 116 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,199 did the music for the whole release. And then a 117 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,360 third fellow who I could just kind of knew through 118 00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:44,600 doing a few game jams and haven't really kept up 119 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,399 much with his name's ever, and he actually is the 120 00:05:48,399 --> 00:05:53,480 one that pitched that idea. He was like the theme 121 00:05:53,519 --> 00:05:57,040 for that game jam was looping, which I think we 122 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,879 were thinking of like looping through colors. It actually in 123 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,680 the game jam, there's three colors that you rotate between. 124 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,879 It's black, white, and gray, which is way too hard. 125 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it did it loop like like in that cycle 126 00:06:12,639 --> 00:06:15,040 or could you choose like okay, I choose. 127 00:06:14,759 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 2: To go which direction? I think I don't even remember. 128 00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: Actually that almost sounds like playing a rhythm game at 129 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,519 the same time as playing like a platform. 130 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 2: Or like just swimming between two colors is hard enough. 131 00:06:25,399 --> 00:06:27,879 And you know, when I went to make the full game, 132 00:06:27,959 --> 00:06:31,879 I definitely thought about including that third color as some 133 00:06:32,079 --> 00:06:35,279 extra challenge or something, but I just eventually was like, 134 00:06:36,759 --> 00:06:40,759 it's I've made this way hard enough without adding yeah, 135 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:42,639 more more things. 136 00:06:42,319 --> 00:06:44,959 Speaker 1: You know. So and that was in Unity as well, 137 00:06:45,079 --> 00:06:45,920 that game Jam. 138 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:48,439 Speaker 2: That's correct? Yeah? Is it? 139 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: Is it the same file that you built off of 140 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,040 or did you start a new product? 141 00:06:52,439 --> 00:06:56,399 Speaker 2: But the I did prototype it once or twice after 142 00:06:58,199 --> 00:06:59,920 after the game jam to try to kind of figure 143 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,040 out the physics better because I was pretty green, and 144 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:06,160 I mean I still am, but I've learned so much 145 00:07:06,199 --> 00:07:09,720 over the last three years. That first game jam is 146 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,240 just super floaty, you know what I mean. And I've 147 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,519 like since then learned, oh real or it's not real physics. 148 00:07:17,519 --> 00:07:19,920 It's fake video game physics to kind of you know, 149 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,560 like slam down when you're coming down and that sort 150 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,759 of thing feels better, and that's how most platformers work. 151 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,000 So it took me a few prototypes to kind of 152 00:07:28,079 --> 00:07:31,839 land in the general direction. But the file, the file 153 00:07:31,959 --> 00:07:35,199 that the final game really is is called like November 154 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:38,040 twenty twenty two or something like that. So that's where 155 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:42,519 I started the project. That a few more actual Unity projects. 156 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, gotcha, that's cool. Yeah, I uh like, how 157 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,120 how do you finally get to the point because for 158 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:51,639 me this was such a harder thing too, of like 159 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,480 the last few months potion problem, All right, what am 160 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,240 I cutting? I'd need to finish this thing right now? 161 00:07:57,519 --> 00:07:59,399 So how how are you? Because I haven't checked in 162 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:00,600 with you in like a few months, and I feel 163 00:08:00,639 --> 00:08:02,120 like it sounded like, oh, you're raimed for the end 164 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,120 of this year, but like, I don't know, might slip 165 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,720 next year again, we'll see. So tell me about like 166 00:08:06,759 --> 00:08:08,639 these last couple months for you and how you've kind 167 00:08:08,639 --> 00:08:10,040 of I don't know if you've had to make any 168 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:11,839 big cuts or if you really just felt like, oh, 169 00:08:11,839 --> 00:08:13,240 the game's in a really good place now, I don't 170 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,120 need any more worlds Like how have you come to 171 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,160 the decision of finally hit the button on October seventh? 172 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,160 Which is a very satisfying button to hit, I'll say 173 00:08:20,199 --> 00:08:22,120 on Steam. I mean, I guess you've kind of done 174 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:23,759 know what the demo thing when you've released that too, 175 00:08:23,839 --> 00:08:24,839 But it feels. 176 00:08:24,519 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: Good, not the same. Yeah, I look forward to sharing 177 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:33,919 that feeling, but it's coming soon. But yeah, I think 178 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,720 I'll be honest, I think I just lost the thread. Well, 179 00:08:37,759 --> 00:08:39,559 can you remind me of the question I got distracted 180 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:40,440 by the button pushing and. 181 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, just like in the last couple months, what has 182 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:45,480 led you to the realization of like, okay, the game 183 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:46,600 is finally ready to go? 184 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. So I think, like any creative project, I 185 00:08:52,279 --> 00:08:54,919 just saw this Leonardo da Vinci quote somewhere else, like 186 00:08:55,039 --> 00:08:59,480 literally ten or thirty minutes ago that like a creative 187 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:02,919 project is never done, it's just abandoned or whatever that 188 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:04,720 I don't even know if DaVinci really said that. It's 189 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,840 the internet, you know what I mean, Like I believe 190 00:09:06,879 --> 00:09:14,240 it people he spoke Italian anyway, So I think I 191 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,799 kind of just was like, I have to be done 192 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,480 with this thing this year. We're coming up on three 193 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,519 and a half years, like I think November. I don't 194 00:09:24,519 --> 00:09:25,720 even know. I can't do the math in my head. 195 00:09:25,759 --> 00:09:27,360 I am at about three and a half years. It's 196 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:31,000 like I couldnot let this drag into the next year. 197 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:32,879 I mean I might have to, like I think I 198 00:09:32,919 --> 00:09:35,519 told you, but I was like, I don't want to. 199 00:09:36,399 --> 00:09:38,080 And at some point I just looked at what I 200 00:09:38,159 --> 00:09:41,600 had and I was like, God, this is much more done. 201 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:45,080 Like maybe you can relate to this. But there have 202 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,200 been periods of time where I've had to kind of 203 00:09:48,639 --> 00:09:53,279 do a lot of life stuff, like my real job 204 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,200 or my day job is busy, this or that. And 205 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,279 I came to a period where I had a little 206 00:09:59,279 --> 00:10:00,759 more time to look at it, and I was like, 207 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,159 I think I can I think I can do this 208 00:10:03,279 --> 00:10:07,679 by fall, and I'm gonna look at a specific time 209 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,320 and for me, that was I think the end of 210 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,519 August and if if at the end of August I 211 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,240 am good, I'm going to release it and early to 212 00:10:16,279 --> 00:10:19,120 mid October, like if I feel like I can do it, 213 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,840 if i feel like I'm happy with where right that 214 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:23,879 such that even if it went out now it would 215 00:10:23,919 --> 00:10:27,600 be okay or you know what I mean. And then 216 00:10:27,799 --> 00:10:30,120 after that, I was like, Okay, that's the time period 217 00:10:30,159 --> 00:10:31,679 I think I can do it. And then I'm like, 218 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,559 oh crap. Steam has an autumn sale from yeah, October 219 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,159 whatever until October sixth, and then they have next Fest 220 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,639 from October thirteenth through this. I'm like, hmm, well, I 221 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,039 think it's got to go right there. 222 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: Smart, Yeah, that makes sense. So is the last couple 223 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,759 months then, like since that August deadline that you said forself, 224 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,399 like no more new content, it's just like polishing fixing 225 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,519 bugs at that point, and then like I guess more 226 00:10:58,559 --> 00:10:59,679 marketing stuff at that point. 227 00:11:00,159 --> 00:11:03,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's for me, I realized the game 228 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,720 is in pretty good shape. It's like just a lot 229 00:11:05,799 --> 00:11:11,279 of polish, and like I think, you know, we talked 230 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:14,320 a lot about the gameplay, but I had this game 231 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,960 also has a story and and cut scenes. I mean, 232 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,639 maybe it feels almost wrong to call them cut scenes 233 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,879 because they are literally just two D pixel art sprites 234 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,480 that are you know, and then dialogue boxes. But but 235 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,840 it's I think that's yeah, but there are these cut scenes, 236 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,720 and for me, they're really important. And and I think 237 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,159 that stuff was a little rougher still, and and honestly, 238 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,639 there's still a few things that I'm trying to like 239 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:49,799 squeeze like in, especially for the endings right now, Like wow, 240 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:52,159 I think I'm really happy with the endings, but like 241 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,080 if I can get in and and and maybe make 242 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,919 this a different animation or whatever, So again, I kind 243 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:03,840 of like just decided it has to be this date. 244 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:09,919 And yeah, and so it's mostly little stuff, but there's 245 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,919 a lot of little stuff. And then like it's just 246 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,799 like I even now I'm like, oh crap, I found 247 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:21,559 one I don't know about you, but I could looking back. 248 00:12:21,639 --> 00:12:24,919 There's so many design decisions I've made that are like, 249 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,080 we're short term gain at the expense of long term pain. 250 00:12:29,639 --> 00:12:29,879 Speaker 1: Sure. 251 00:12:30,039 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 2: It's like, for example, I have these NPCs that you 252 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,159 can talk to, and I wrote tons of dialogue for them, 253 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,120 and I'm really happy about that. But they have different colors. 254 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:43,840 Some of them are black and some of them are white, 255 00:12:44,279 --> 00:12:45,799 and some of them have two eyes and some of 256 00:12:45,799 --> 00:12:48,960 them have one eye. And so I have this code 257 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:53,840 that I just like hard coded in different places for 258 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,320 the sprite is this way, and they're like, they're like, 259 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,679 Portrait is this way, and I wish I had just 260 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,799 one of those things speak to the other rather than 261 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,679 hard coding them in two places. 262 00:13:04,759 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 263 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:06,759 Speaker 2: So I'm like, every once in a while, I'm playing 264 00:13:06,799 --> 00:13:09,679 through the game, like, oh crap, that's a one eyed bot. 265 00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:13,240 But is you know portrait is two eyes. Yeah, let 266 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,399 me re export this whole project to fix that one, 267 00:13:17,039 --> 00:13:17,279 you know. 268 00:13:17,799 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's probably just gonna be the 269 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,200 case for anyone in our position, where like we've done 270 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:22,799 some game jams, done like a little bit here there, 271 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,960 but like this kind of being how we're learning game development. 272 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,600 Through this, you know, this final first full game. Yeah, 273 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,639 there's so many things that's like, oh, yeah, I could 274 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:33,519 have been now that I am better at just the 275 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:35,879 basics of coding, Oh, that could have been so much 276 00:13:35,879 --> 00:13:38,200 more efficient that like what is hundreds of lines of 277 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,080 code could have been like twenty now that I know 278 00:13:40,399 --> 00:13:41,559 how this how. 279 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: This stuff had one of those places be the definition 280 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,840 of that a lot, and then the other one just 281 00:13:49,879 --> 00:13:52,440 pulls from it. But instead I'm you know what I mean, 282 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:53,120 Like it's I. 283 00:13:53,039 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: Mean, I don't even think I really knew what scripts 284 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,080 were until like deep into my game, and that is 285 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,679 such a helpful thing. But man, I may meant I 286 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,120 was typing and copy pasting things over and over again. 287 00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:05,720 But yeah, it's kind of how it goes. Yeah, you've 288 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,399 done a lot of game jams. Now I'm curious how, like, 289 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:10,799 I don't know, do you feel like that was helping 290 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,759 you kind of break up the monotony or like, I 291 00:14:12,799 --> 00:14:14,559 don't know, if you're ever just sometimes you're in a 292 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,240 rut where it's like a couple months we're like, man, 293 00:14:16,639 --> 00:14:18,679 this freaking bug is annoying me, or I just am 294 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:20,960 feeling a little lost. I don't know, did you feel 295 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,960 like that helped you like still stretch that muscle, but 296 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,480 at least like put your mind in a different place. 297 00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:27,919 And also like, okay, I have a shorter time frame here. 298 00:14:28,759 --> 00:14:32,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know what it is, but I really 299 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,120 enjoy doing game jams. But I think I've chosen good 300 00:14:36,159 --> 00:14:39,399 times to do them. I've gotten really good at being like, oh, 301 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,039 this would be a really good time for me to 302 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:44,720 do a game jam, and I am just like so focused, 303 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,360 like when we did the Chosen One. Part of the 304 00:14:47,399 --> 00:14:52,080 reason I did that at that specific time and that 305 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,279 specific game jam was my wife was out of town 306 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,039 and my son, who did it with us, was like, 307 00:14:58,519 --> 00:15:00,200 had you know, he and I just had a lot 308 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,600 of time. I didn't have a lot of work, and 309 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:04,360 so it was like, with my wife out of town, 310 00:15:04,519 --> 00:15:07,080 that's all we'll do, you know what I mean? And 311 00:15:08,159 --> 00:15:11,399 and yeah, I think it. I did that one also selfishly, 312 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,559 partly because I was like, if I get in that 313 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,799 mode of just like finishing and fixing and just doing 314 00:15:17,799 --> 00:15:20,279 the things, maybe I can take that energy into finishing 315 00:15:21,159 --> 00:15:23,919 this project. And also I do think it is a 316 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,440 little bit of like a palette cleanser and a reminder 317 00:15:26,559 --> 00:15:29,840 of why oh, this is why it's fun. 318 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, those generating those new ideas for the first time 319 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,039 is yeah, extremely exciting. I want to ask you about that. Actually, So, 320 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,440 your your son is obviously like a big into game development. 321 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:41,720 Now he's making all sorts of stuff. I think it 322 00:15:41,799 --> 00:15:44,200 started with game builder garage. Maybe I don't know if 323 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:45,399 that was the first thing he did, but I remember 324 00:15:45,399 --> 00:15:47,759 you talking about that on Switchheads, and now he's doing 325 00:15:47,759 --> 00:15:49,679 stuff and obviously we worked with him on Chosen One, 326 00:15:50,039 --> 00:15:51,879 and then I've followed him on Itch and I see 327 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:54,440 just like posting asset packs and all this stuff. So 328 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,840 I'm curious because obviously, I mean, he was quite a 329 00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,639 bit younger than he is now obviously when you started 330 00:15:59,639 --> 00:16:01,720 this problem. But has he had an influence at all, 331 00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:03,919 like obviously play testing giving you like hey Dad, you 332 00:16:03,919 --> 00:16:06,759 should change this thing, or this doesn't make sense, or 333 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,519 I don't know any anything that's come from him. I'm curious. 334 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 2: Well, this isn't exactly what you're asking, but I love 335 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:15,519 this story and so I'm gonna share it. 336 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:16,399 Speaker 1: Please do. 337 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 2: The story itself has a big origin point related to him. 338 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,759 So I'm just gonna tell this story real quick, and 339 00:16:24,799 --> 00:16:27,720 then maybe I can also answer exactly more kind of 340 00:16:27,759 --> 00:16:33,799 what you're saying, but so backing up like I guess 341 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,320 he's ten, so backing up approximately ten years ago, maybe 342 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,279 even more because he's almost eleven. When he was an infant, 343 00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:46,440 he didn't sleep very well, and I was on night 344 00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:49,919 duty pretty much, so I would try to get him 345 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,360 back to sleep. And that was a really rough period 346 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,759 of time, and I spent a lot of time in 347 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,440 a rocking chair in his room at this apartment we 348 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:03,000 lived in, just looking at these paper robots because we 349 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,440 had done sort of a sci fi theme for his 350 00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:08,920 room and my and for his like baby shower. I 351 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,000 think it was that my brother and my sister in 352 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,519 law made these little paper robots as decorations and we 353 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:16,599 hung them in his room. I just sat there staring 354 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,680 at them, and I came up with names for them, 355 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,359 and then I came up with backstories for them, and 356 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,519 then I came up with there on this team, and 357 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:26,119 then this happened, and you know what I mean, just 358 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,920 like way more because that's all I could do. Yeah, 359 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:32,960 I was just sitting there olding this kid. 360 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:35,319 Speaker 1: Sorry, is this weaving into like you're telling him like 361 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,799 a bedtime story or you're just doing this just. 362 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: Me in my head because he was not even one, 363 00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:43,640 you know, he was just a baby, and I took 364 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,559 all those ideas and I thought, you know, I wrote 365 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,799 eventually I was like, maybe I'm gonna do something with these, 366 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,440 and that's where the story for this game is from. 367 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:53,039 Speaker 1: It's amazing. 368 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: But to answer your exact question, I mean, he has 369 00:17:57,519 --> 00:18:00,680 been one of my biggest champions. Like I have a 370 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,480 little artifact back here, which given embarrassingly, is from a 371 00:18:04,519 --> 00:18:07,440 few years ago, because that's where it's like, yeah, this 372 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,920 has taken me so long. Where he's like in his school, 373 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,359 like they had like what are the things you want 374 00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:16,759 or hope for? You know, and he wrote like, I 375 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:18,799 hope my dad's game is successful. 376 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:19,839 Speaker 1: That is so cute. 377 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 2: I know, right and so and yeah, and as he's 378 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,799 gotten better at stuff, he can talk really intelligently now, 379 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:30,240 Like I don't to age ten. I was playing as 380 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,279 many or more video games than him, but he knows 381 00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:35,440 what hit boxes and colliders and you know, the collisions 382 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,039 and like like he can just talk about it because 383 00:18:38,039 --> 00:18:40,079 he's knows how to do it. 384 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, So now I actually want to go back 385 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:46,279 to the story you shared of the is happy who's 386 00:18:46,319 --> 00:18:49,119 a protagonist of Monocram Heights, and then the other characters 387 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:50,759 that you have in there, which I don't know their 388 00:18:50,799 --> 00:18:53,039 names at the moment, but are those characters that came 389 00:18:53,079 --> 00:18:55,880 from that that those origin stories ten years ago? Then? 390 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,880 Is Happy one of those original feats? 391 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's so cool. This little string of paper 392 00:19:01,519 --> 00:19:06,119 robots that my family made had five robots on it. 393 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,200 And I don't want to really spoil because I actually 394 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,440 think the story in the game is slowly revealed in 395 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,200 a certain way. I don't want to spoil it too much. 396 00:19:13,279 --> 00:19:19,599 But the major five characters, there's really three major characters, 397 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:23,880 but then there you'll see some other side ones. Yeah, 398 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,839 they are those those five robots. 399 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, that was something that when I saw 400 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,440 the most recent trailer for the game, because now that 401 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,240 you have your release day of the new trailer up there, 402 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,960 and I was seeing like characters and little cut scenes 403 00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:39,920 and like backgrounds and stuff that I haven't seen before 404 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:41,319 in the versions that I played. I was getting very 405 00:19:41,319 --> 00:19:44,240 excited for that because you could talk to NPCs in 406 00:19:44,279 --> 00:19:46,319 the versions I've played before, but yeah, I haven't seen 407 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,359 what that looks like now, And yeah, I wanted to 408 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,240 ask you more about that too, because I know environmentalism 409 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:53,640 is like a big thing for you, and that's one 410 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,240 of the I don't know, one of the themes I 411 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,440 guess you want to tackle here. But without going into 412 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,000 spoilers of like revealing things, curious, how how you just 413 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,799 implemented story into a game like this at all? Because 414 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:07,480 I feel like that you know, you probably had just 415 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:10,160 moving around jumping platforming for a long time before that 416 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,559 stuff really got implemented in there. So how did that 417 00:20:13,079 --> 00:20:13,880 process go for you? 418 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 2: Yeah? I want to shout out real quickly to Andrea Blythe, 419 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,240 who is a woman that I hired, a friend of 420 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,480 mine that I hired to help out with the narrative 421 00:20:25,519 --> 00:20:30,799 and with writing. When I was kind of like this 422 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:35,559 is the gameplay, you know, it's solid, I want the 423 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,240 story to be something, she came in and helped me 424 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:43,920 kind of take all these ideas I had and like 425 00:20:44,079 --> 00:20:46,680 come up with some different pitches for how we could 426 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:48,839 take it. And I actually took some of her pitches 427 00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:51,799 and combined them and then we went went in that direction. 428 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:57,279 I think, I really, I mean, I consider myself a 429 00:20:57,279 --> 00:20:59,920 writer and so it was like really important to me 430 00:21:00,559 --> 00:21:03,720 any game I make has a story and has dialogue, 431 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:06,440 and I'm maybe I'm maybe too much because I love 432 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,039 to put in lots of words and stuff. But and 433 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,039 you know, you think about platformers aren't typically right, like 434 00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:17,960 that's not normal. Like maybe Celeste kind of changed that, 435 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,119 yeah a little bit, but Mario and stuff is just 436 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,960 like there's a princess and you got a saver. You know, 437 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:26,640 there's not even we don't. 438 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,799 Speaker 1: Know now that we've got a movie. Now there's a 439 00:21:27,799 --> 00:21:30,880 lot of dialogue, but that's deviating from where we started. 440 00:21:31,599 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 2: So I think I wanted to kind of take what 441 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,480 Celeste did and and you know, continue. And so there 442 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:45,920 is NPC's on the levels that you can completely optionally 443 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,079 talk to like you don't have. Actually at the very beginning, 444 00:21:49,079 --> 00:21:50,799 it kind of railroads you into talking the ones that 445 00:21:50,839 --> 00:21:52,839 tell you how to play the game, but otherwise it's 446 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,640 all optional. And then I have the game broken into 447 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,400 what I'm calling zones. You can use the word world. 448 00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:03,359 I call them zones. And in each zone there is 449 00:22:03,559 --> 00:22:06,279 a story beat, which is I don't think this is 450 00:22:06,319 --> 00:22:10,559 a spoiler. They are all flashbacks, but there are things 451 00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:14,319 that happen in the present moment as well, and in 452 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,960 the present moment you have dialogue choices, and I the 453 00:22:19,079 --> 00:22:22,480 choices do matter. I will say there are cool they 454 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,319 will send you in a certain. 455 00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: Path. 456 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: There are multiple endings depending on your dialogue tradings. 457 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: That's really cool. So would you have to like start 458 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,519 the game from zero to experience those different endings then? 459 00:22:36,599 --> 00:22:38,279 Or can you kind of like I'm gonna start from 460 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,240 zone three now and then like pick different things right there? 461 00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I might need to if enough people like care, right, 462 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,160 then I might have to come up with some way 463 00:22:50,599 --> 00:22:55,000 to end game allow you to do that you would 464 00:22:55,519 --> 00:22:59,680 without giving too much away. It's hard for me to 465 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:00,720 decide what to say here. 466 00:23:01,559 --> 00:23:03,279 Speaker 1: You don't have to reveal anything if you don't want to. 467 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 2: It's funny though, Like, no, I think people care about 468 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,759 this though, right, like because some people are like number one. 469 00:23:08,799 --> 00:23:11,039 I will say that there's no right or wrong ending, 470 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,960 like you know, sometimes I feel like in games like 471 00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:16,400 you get the bad ending, or you get the good ending, 472 00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:21,920 or you get the non canon ending. There are three endings, 473 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,720 and I think they are all. 474 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: Appropriate like satisfying. 475 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:29,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'd like to think at least though, I'd 476 00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:32,279 be curious to what people say because honestly, like I 477 00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:36,039 did a lot of play testing on the gameplay, but 478 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:39,039 the story has always been really close to me, and 479 00:23:39,039 --> 00:23:41,160 Andrey and I have worked on it together, but like 480 00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:47,640 I haven't like user tested the story, yeah, because I'm like, 481 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,039 you know, what if people don't like it, I like it. Yeah. 482 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,599 Speaker 1: So, especially what you're saying there of there's a lot 483 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,599 of dialogue that is optional. I mean, that's going to 484 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,400 be extremely hard to play test any because you don't know, like, okay, 485 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,599 exactly what lines of dialogue did you see unless you 486 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,759 like build it into the game where you can, like, 487 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,880 you know, get a file export that tells you, like 488 00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:09,960 exactly what people saw. But even then you don't know 489 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,359 if they actually write it or like processed it. So 490 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,440 that's a that's a tricky thing, but that is that 491 00:24:14,519 --> 00:24:16,119 is exciting. But it is a funny thing too. You 492 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,000 mentioned there of like bigger games like huge triple as 493 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,559 that have, you know, the day they come out, there's 494 00:24:21,559 --> 00:24:23,359 already an IGN guide that tells you how to do 495 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:24,839 all the different endings and stuff, but that you don't 496 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,279 necessarily have that luxury for you know, a smaller indie 497 00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:29,680 games not gonna necessarily have, you know, all the big 498 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:31,880 news sites with their guides on how to do all 499 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,039 these different endings. So but I think that as the 500 00:24:34,079 --> 00:24:35,880 mystery too, Like people are gonna have to find that 501 00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:38,480 stuff out for themselves unless you put it into the 502 00:24:38,519 --> 00:24:40,359 game and like an actual way that people can track 503 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,039 I guess. 504 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:43,079 Speaker 2: Right, And if you if you're out there listening to 505 00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:45,079 this and that's important to you, you can message me. 506 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,319 I'll tell you. I guess how to get what endings. 507 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,799 It's kind of obvious. I think, like I tried to 508 00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:53,200 make it so that like it's you can pick up 509 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,599 on it, if that, If that makes any sense, I'm 510 00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,400 not trying to be vague. But I also think that 511 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,519 the story is cool part to explore and experience without 512 00:25:02,599 --> 00:25:03,559 knowing much. You know. 513 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm very excited to experience that part of it, 514 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,000 because I that's not really what I was playtesting when 515 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,640 I played the game year or two ago. Going back 516 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,200 to some gameplay a little bit. One thing I want 517 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,119 to ask you about is I think the verticality of 518 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,000 this game is really interesting a novel and that a 519 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,680 lot of games do have, like you know, you're kind 520 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,519 of going up and up and up, but I feel 521 00:25:24,559 --> 00:25:26,960 like in this game, you're you know, going horizontally for 522 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,960 a bit, whether that's right or left, and then you 523 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,160 go just to tine a bit up a few platforms up, 524 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:32,920 and then you start going the opposite direction. It makes 525 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,920 kind of like an S shape, but I feel like 526 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,759 there isn't like some huge big divider between those layers. 527 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,079 So you can often you know, be going for a 528 00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:41,799 tricky jump fall and then you'll fall to like a 529 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:43,559 previous part of the level. Now maybe you've got a 530 00:25:43,599 --> 00:25:45,880 checkpoint you can just you know, zip back up that 531 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,440 next one. And then sometimes you also use that to like, Okay, 532 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,440 now I'm gonna jump down and grab a collectible that 533 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,079 I couldn't reach before, but now I could. But I 534 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,400 think that's such a fascinating thing to me, is like 535 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,400 how close those layers are, and it makes the levels 536 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,119 feel like super dense and compact in a really interesting way. 537 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,319 And I'm curious if that's something that you kind of planned, 538 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:05,920 if you were going for, or if it just kind 539 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:07,559 of happened with the level design and then you kind 540 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:09,279 of just obviously built off of it as you saw 541 00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:10,440 that that was kind of how it was going to 542 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:10,799 work out. 543 00:26:11,559 --> 00:26:16,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally just happened. I think it happened for two 544 00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:23,599 different reasons, one of which is that it's really interesting. 545 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:30,799 If it was just a horizontal platformer, it would be fine, 546 00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:36,759 but with the phasing the color swapping mechanic, it's almost 547 00:26:36,799 --> 00:26:39,839 more interesting if you have to go through things right, 548 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,480 and you have to like kind of pass through vertically, 549 00:26:43,519 --> 00:26:46,599 because if it's just horizontal, we can put you know, 550 00:26:46,759 --> 00:26:49,519 barriers and things that you might have to pass between. 551 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,640 But that kind of it just sort of naturally lended 552 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,920 itself towards going up because of that, And I don't 553 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,960 remember if that came first. I don't remember even honestly, 554 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:03,200 don't remember how it was in the game Jam, how 555 00:27:03,279 --> 00:27:07,119 it became a little bit more vertical, and then I 556 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,519 really leaned into it with the full game. But simultaneously 557 00:27:11,039 --> 00:27:13,240 with Bent Neatly, who did the music, we came up 558 00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:16,680 with this idea of as you climb, and this got 559 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,920 abandoned in the full game, but as you climb in 560 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,480 the game Jam, the music evolves, so like he had 561 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:26,279 a base just like drum track that you hear at 562 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:27,920 the bottom, and then you know, as you got to 563 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,839 a certain height, the bass would kick in, okay, and 564 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:32,200 then as you got to another height, you know, the 565 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,960 synth would or whatever like and and so, and that 566 00:27:35,079 --> 00:27:40,319 added a lot and you know, we definitely considered keeping that, 567 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,200 but it was like that's a lot of work for 568 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,920 a bunch of levels, right, to make every song have 569 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,640 different tracks that all looked that kind of come in 570 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,400 and out. And also it was kind of predicated on 571 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,000 the game jam where you would often fall and there 572 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,279 were no checkpoints, you know what I mean, the music 573 00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:01,839 would go back to just the drum, like no, I 574 00:28:01,839 --> 00:28:07,799 fell down to the bottom, which was not very user friendly, 575 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,799 but was you know, is like extra painful, right, and 576 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,880 so yeah, like it's like, well, we gotta have checkpoints 577 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,440 and we gotta just have the music good music. That 578 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,119 doesn't that change. 579 00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:20,319 Speaker 1: That's a fun thing that can happen to because of 580 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,160 the phase mechanic. Like sometimes, as I said, you're going 581 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,640 for that typical jump, you fall a layer, but if 582 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,720 your color that you have, if you don't have the 583 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,440 correct color selected, you might just keep falling and falling 584 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,680 and tumbling all the way down. Yeah, and obviously once 585 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,519 again you have a checkpoint somewhere that'll help you out. 586 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:36,160 But I don't know, I like that just you kind 587 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,119 of remember like, oh, yeah, I remember ten minutes ago 588 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,799 and I was stuck on this part. I like fell 589 00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:42,279 back there for a moment, a little bit of nostalgia 590 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,119 or something. But it's it's been fun for me, like 591 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,160 in playing the different versions and just like really didn't 592 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,720 treating it as like a speed run game now, like 593 00:28:50,759 --> 00:28:52,960 on the earlier levels that I have played a couple 594 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,160 of times. Now, maybe they've had little variations here there, 595 00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:57,319 but even just like knowing those mechanics is the first 596 00:28:57,319 --> 00:28:59,839 time you play it, it is quite the like mind 597 00:28:59,839 --> 00:29:02,200 to right of just trying to get those phasing down. 598 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,400 So that's also something I'm curious about. Like obviously the 599 00:29:06,799 --> 00:29:10,559 like the color of your character changes, but I feel 600 00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:12,240 like that's also something as the developer, you could get 601 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,799 so in the weeds of you're so used to it. 602 00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:15,400 But I don't know how much did you have to 603 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,759 really work on that or like adjust things just to 604 00:29:17,759 --> 00:29:21,960 make sure people could really grasp I think. 605 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 2: It is really a weird mechanic, even for people who 606 00:29:27,319 --> 00:29:29,880 are really good at video games at first, right, Like 607 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,640 I've definitely at conventions and with friends who play tested it, 608 00:29:35,079 --> 00:29:39,279 seen the gamut of people who get it quickly or 609 00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:42,680 don't you know what I mean. And I think also 610 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,839 a lot of times people who have more experience with 611 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,640 platformers and that sort of thing tend to get it faster, 612 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,160 but even people who are decently experienced sometimes and because 613 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,119 it is just different, you have you have to start 614 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,519 thinking about the space a little bit differently, right, the 615 00:29:59,599 --> 00:30:05,880 virtual space, that is. But yeah, I think pretty instantly, 616 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,960 you know, the game Jam that we came out of 617 00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:13,880 was also themed around black and white, So okay, I 618 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,039 I think it was just always black and white, right, 619 00:30:16,519 --> 00:30:18,680 and then, like I said, originally gray as well, but 620 00:30:19,839 --> 00:30:22,839 so I just took that forward. There was a brief 621 00:30:22,839 --> 00:30:25,599 moment where I questioned it, like could it be purple 622 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,759 and green or whatever? Would that be more readable or whatever? 623 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,160 And I think I just decided to know, like I'm 624 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,319 just going to stick with this. But the tricky things 625 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,279 were like a little bit of feedback early on, of 626 00:30:40,319 --> 00:30:43,680 like I put a white outline on the black guy 627 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,720 and a black outline on the white version of him, 628 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,319 and sometimes some people found that a little confusing. And 629 00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:53,039 then when I had an artist early on draw some 630 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:56,119 some platforms and stuff, a lot of artists, i mean 631 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,680 pixel art in general, are not going to use hard 632 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,240 black and white, right, like they're they're going to use 633 00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:06,240 softer tones of white. And I kept the first few 634 00:31:06,279 --> 00:31:08,400 times you made platforms, I was like, it needs to 635 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:09,839 be more white. It needs to read more white. That 636 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,839 reads great, And he'd be like, well, that's white, you know, 637 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:14,720 and I'm like, no, it needs to be like f 638 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,039 f f f white, you know what I mean. Like 639 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,160 and but I but I also, like, was pretty a 640 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,160 novice to pixelart myself at the time, so I see 641 00:31:24,359 --> 00:31:26,759 their point, and I think we kind of ended up 642 00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:28,720 meeting the mill because now I would be like, yeah, 643 00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:31,519 we don't want it to be too white. That's that's 644 00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:35,079 bright and harsh, you know. So those are some of 645 00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:37,759 the challenges of that. And I think for some people 646 00:31:37,759 --> 00:31:40,599 it is just too hard and too confusing. Like, I mean, 647 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,559 this is not a game for everybody. That's something I 648 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,279 decided pretty early on too. 649 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,559 Speaker 1: Right, you got to be into platformers to want to 650 00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:49,680 sign up for it in the first place. 651 00:31:49,759 --> 00:31:51,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I mean you might think about this too, 652 00:31:51,839 --> 00:31:54,359 making games right where you're like I do, I'm not 653 00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:57,200 trying to make a game for everybody, because those games 654 00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:00,759 exist and they're already doing well, and I'm not gonna 655 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:03,680 be able to market a game for everybody, right, Like, yeah, 656 00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:07,359 it's easier when you're in a position like us to 657 00:32:07,359 --> 00:32:11,240 to try to find a smaller niche or to lean 658 00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:13,720 into that a little bit. I think, I don't know. 659 00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:18,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, going back to the art, because I see 660 00:32:18,039 --> 00:32:21,559 you all the time on discord aceprites opened ninety ninety 661 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:23,519 percent of the day. I feel like when I look 662 00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:26,480 at your when I see your name there, what was it? 663 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,839 Because you obviously mentioned the music, and you had some 664 00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:31,880 help with the writing and story, and obviously I think, 665 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,599 as as far as I know, you've done like all 666 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,559 the coding for the game, like all the design and 667 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,519 level design and stuff. But how about the art. What's 668 00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:39,200 the balance on that? Like how much of it have 669 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:41,119 you done versus your artists there? 670 00:32:41,559 --> 00:32:43,279 Speaker 2: Well, I did actually hire a couple of people to 671 00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:45,720 help with programming it first too. When I first started, 672 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:47,960 I wasn't very good, and I got a couple of 673 00:32:48,039 --> 00:32:51,279 lessons from somebody who helped write some code, which I'm 674 00:32:51,319 --> 00:32:53,519 not even sure if it's really in the game anymore, 675 00:32:53,519 --> 00:32:55,799 but like I still credit him because it did, you 676 00:32:55,839 --> 00:32:57,720 know what I mean. And then I did hire some 677 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,799 somebody else to help me fix one problem that I 678 00:32:59,839 --> 00:33:00,759 was really stuck on. 679 00:33:02,519 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: What's that? Can you share what that is? That problem? 680 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:13,599 Speaker 2: Though? Yeah, platforms. What's really funny is that, like I've 681 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,079 now dabbled in GOODO and moving platforms. In GOODO, they 682 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,359 just work. I know how to make them work. They 683 00:33:20,359 --> 00:33:23,799 work great with with depending on what you're doing and using, 684 00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:27,039 at least what my limited GIDO experience, probably I would 685 00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:28,920 run into this same problem there once. I'm like, I'm 686 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,759 trying to write custom physics and stuff, but in unity, 687 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,000 I just ran into this problem that, like every tutorial 688 00:33:36,039 --> 00:33:40,640 I found worked a little bit but caused this problem. 689 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,799 I mean, I'm not answering your question about art now, 690 00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:47,720 but I'm I'm talking about programming. But like another thing 691 00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:51,720 that really was hard and is still hard is the 692 00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:55,440 darn black and white thing. Like half of my stuff 693 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,720 has to turn off, you know, on a frame and 694 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:02,720 how the stuff has to turn on, and that causes 695 00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:05,400 so many weird issues. 696 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: Like hmm, yeah to the game ever, like stutter when 697 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,719 you would do that because it's so many things triggering 698 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:12,039 at once. 699 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,559 Speaker 2: No, but it's more like, oh crap, I need that 700 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,159 to cannonball to explode. But so I can't turn off 701 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:22,880 its collider because it needs to know that it's hitting 702 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,800 the wall, but it can't collide with the player. So 703 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,280 I need to really think about how to write all 704 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,559 these I mean, it's not even that complicated. It's just 705 00:34:30,599 --> 00:34:33,760 stuff that when you're a beginner is like extra complicated. 706 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: Right, There's like different endings to all these props in 707 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,920 the world. It's like what color they art when they 708 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:41,400 finish it. 709 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, But to go back to the art, yeah, I 710 00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:50,519 was I was not very good at pixel art, but 711 00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:53,320 I was trying to learn when the game started, and 712 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,880 so I hired a couple of people to do art. 713 00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:03,159 You know. I sometimes do a really rough version of 714 00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:05,119 it and send it to them, and then they would 715 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,119 improve on it. And then I mean I almost every 716 00:35:10,159 --> 00:35:13,559 piece of art, with the exception of the story backgrounds, 717 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,480 I have touched up as I've gotten better, and as 718 00:35:17,519 --> 00:35:19,199 I've looked at the art and been like, oh, they 719 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,159 left a stray pixel here, you know, sometimes years later 720 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,079 realizing that too, right, like left I stared at it. 721 00:35:25,159 --> 00:35:27,360 I'm like, I don't know how I missed that. That 722 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,760 frame of animation has you know, the leg wrong or whatever. 723 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,400 But I'm seeing it now. So, and I've gotten a 724 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,440 lot better. And at this point, like I was telling you, 725 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,199 I kind of saved some of the endings and story 726 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:43,079 stuff till the end. I was like, I now can 727 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,559 do those animation Whereas like I need a new animation 728 00:35:46,599 --> 00:35:48,679 for the ending. I knew I needed like ten and 729 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,360 I was like, do I need to hire somebody? I'm like, 730 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,440 not anymore. And now I've got it. I got it great. 731 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,679 I mean, I'm not trying to be like, Ooh, I'm 732 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:57,480 the best pixel artist, because I'm not, But like I 733 00:35:57,519 --> 00:36:01,960 think I can confidently take the existing assets and like 734 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,679 make a new animation and stuff like that, and that's 735 00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:08,320 a big step for me because I've gotten a lot 736 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:08,880 better at it. 737 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I'm assume that most of 738 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,199 these people that you worked with or hired weren't really 739 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,880 communicating with each other. It's more just like you kind 740 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,760 of being the mastermind of it, the puppeteers, so to speak. 741 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,639 And I feel like with the game gen that we did, 742 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,199 like I feel like you were such a great leader 743 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,519 in that and you know there's four other people, but 744 00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:29,920 I feel like you just got everyone together and all 745 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,119 that worked really well together. Great communicator, very open feedback 746 00:36:34,119 --> 00:36:36,320 and all that stuff too. Do you have a favorite 747 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,159 thing though, like when you're working on the game, is 748 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:39,000 or a favorite part for you? 749 00:36:39,119 --> 00:36:39,199 Speaker 2: Is it? 750 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,079 Speaker 1: Is it level designed? Do you actually find that you 751 00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:43,000 love the coding? Like, what is your favorite part? 752 00:36:43,079 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 2: Level design? You said at first? Yeah, I think, like 753 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,920 like I said, when you said, oh, what have I done? 754 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:51,639 Speaker 1: Just me? 755 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: And I mean, I guess I haven't really done that 756 00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:56,559 even just me, because I've had people play test it 757 00:36:56,599 --> 00:36:58,360 and I've watched them and I've taken their feedback and 758 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,400 I've adjusted it. But the level design is the one 759 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:07,800 thing that like is all me. Like I really enjoyed 760 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:14,639 the process of creating the new mechanics combining them. I 761 00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:19,239 took a very mathematical approach in this game for some reason, 762 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,639 maybe because it's robotic themed and stuff like that, in 763 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,320 terms of the levels and how they progress and what 764 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:32,280 elements are in them. And I think just I could, 765 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,519 I probably I had to be at some point, like 766 00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:39,239 we got to stop making levels because people aren't gonna 767 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,920 want to play Fast World eight or nine, you know 768 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,079 what I mean. Like so, but that was probably the 769 00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:47,719 part that I really enjoy. 770 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that's maybe a dangerous one then 771 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,840 for that to be your favorite thing, because that easily 772 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,480 just like rolls into this huge scope issue. Whe're like, well, 773 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,559 I could just keep making levels all day long, but 774 00:37:57,599 --> 00:37:59,360 then okay, well now I need new zones, Now I 775 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:00,960 need to do art, No, I need to How is 776 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,880 the story going to work across these things? So at 777 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,760 some point you just got to say, okay, fine, I'll 778 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,239 stop and maybe you can do more later in a 779 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,760 bonus way or something. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, that's uh, that's 780 00:38:11,079 --> 00:38:13,239 did you find that? Were there any worlds or zones 781 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,400 that just didn't end up working you just had to 782 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,639 chop them where you just felt like a pacing wise, 783 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,039 this one's good, but like I just want the game 784 00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:22,079 to be tighter and more focused. Like, how did that 785 00:38:22,079 --> 00:38:23,559 that go for you? And did it? Was it tricky 786 00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:25,960 after you spent hours and hours and weeks and weeks 787 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,639 making a level and have to get rid of it. 788 00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:30,280 Did that ever happen in a way that was heartbreaking? 789 00:38:31,519 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely three major mechanics that I have levels 790 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,239 that I actually think are pretty solid levels, which I 791 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,719 think you even might remember the wind the level. 792 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:44,679 Speaker 1: I do remember the one. 793 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I cut that and I cut two other mechanics 794 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,280 that I designed full levels for, and the wind level especially, 795 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,639 I feel like I polished quite a bit and then 796 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,000 just cut it. And that one feels a little sad, 797 00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:01,760 But I actually, to your point, like I might, it 798 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,840 might it might show up in an updated you know, 799 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,280 as a bonus thing at some point if I ever 800 00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:10,840 get around to that. Yeah, no promises, but it is 801 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,239 it is, you know, something I might do. And then 802 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:19,840 there are some variations like I think, like it's just iteration, 803 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,679 right like where when I first was making these levels, 804 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,679 there wasn't a lot of consistency, but then at some 805 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,639 point I decided, Okay, every level has to have four checkpoints, 806 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,519 and so I and every level should be each checkpoint 807 00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:38,119 should be roughly this far apart. Maybe later levels that 808 00:39:38,119 --> 00:39:41,320 they're longer segments, you know what I mean, like and 809 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,360 and some of that was just feel, but at some 810 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,880 point then I was like, Okay, I gotta do this, 811 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,280 and so a few levels got severely changed because of that, 812 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,519 where I was like, oh, this level has three checkpoints, 813 00:39:54,639 --> 00:39:58,079 I need to lengthen it, or this one is way 814 00:39:58,119 --> 00:40:00,519 too long, you know what I mean, needs to be 815 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,760 shortened or whatever, and those sort of things, but those didn't, 816 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:12,159 those never felt quite sad. Usually most of the times 817 00:40:12,559 --> 00:40:14,559 the improvements feel good. Yeah. 818 00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: Nice. Yeah. One thing I love too about I feel 819 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,320 like most of the levels, if my memory is correct here, 820 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,079 is that the last like little romp up to the 821 00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:25,519 actual exit is like really easy, so you feel like 822 00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:26,960 you got through all the challenge and you can kind 823 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,159 of just like blast through over to the exit here 824 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:31,320 for just like some easy platforms up, which I feel 825 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,039 like is a nice little little dessert I guess at 826 00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:36,679 the end of each level, which is Yeah. 827 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 2: One thing I kind of came around to, and it's 828 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,079 not exactly true on every level, but it's pretty true 829 00:40:42,119 --> 00:40:46,440 for most levels is that with four checkpoints, that essentially 830 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:53,360 makes five segments right between them, and one segment on 831 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,800 each level is pretty darn hard. I just tried to 832 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,280 make one be like that's the challenging segment. I want 833 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,079 to have two or three that are super hard. I 834 00:41:02,119 --> 00:41:05,039 want to have just one, and usually it shouldn't be 835 00:41:05,079 --> 00:41:07,840 the last one, right like that, that should be a 836 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,079 little bit of a downhill, right like slide, So. 837 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 1: That's good for the pacing of it. Do you put 838 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,239 you on the spot here? Do you have a favorite 839 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,440 zone or a favorite level. 840 00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:22,559 Speaker 2: Oh, man, I think it's the last one. I I think, uh, 841 00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:25,360 And I don't want to say why because I think 842 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,360 it's a little it's just a little different than all 843 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,679 the rest of them. And also, like I said, I 844 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,440 mechanically approached the game. I really like, mathematically broke down 845 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,800 how the levels work, and so level nine is where 846 00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:42,639 everything is combined every mechanic is in it, or Zone nine, 847 00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:45,719 I should say, is where every mechanic is in every level. 848 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:51,320 And that feels really like, oh, you know, it's like, 849 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,360 this is what we're building up to, and here it is. 850 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,039 Speaker 1: So that's great. That's that. I don't know if you 851 00:41:57,039 --> 00:41:59,119 played in Neon White, but they kind of did that too, 852 00:41:59,119 --> 00:42:02,199 where the fine every world has its own new kind 853 00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:03,840 of main mechanic to it, and then the final one 854 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,320 is combining everything and it just feels amazing and it 855 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,239 feels like, yeah, it's so rewarding after you spend all 856 00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:10,679 this time to learn all this stuff and maybe you 857 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,079 haven't seen one of them in a while. 858 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, told them to come back or whatever. 859 00:42:15,639 --> 00:42:19,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. A question for you on marketing 860 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,119 it because I've been extremely off social media so I 861 00:42:22,159 --> 00:42:24,480 haven't seen if you've been posting much. But what has 862 00:42:24,599 --> 00:42:27,719 marketing been like for you? And is that something you 863 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,519 enjoy or is that we're like, Okay, I just have 864 00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:30,000 to do it. 865 00:42:30,519 --> 00:42:33,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's probably the thing I am the worst at. 866 00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:37,599 The example I always tell everyone is so you can 867 00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:40,719 see behind me in the video these puppets right here, 868 00:42:41,079 --> 00:42:44,480 I used to make puppets. I did it primarily as 869 00:42:44,519 --> 00:42:47,519 a performance thing. I was a puppeteer, and I mostly 870 00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:50,320 made them to perform with. But I also did a 871 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:54,239 couple of like craft shows and made puppets to sell. 872 00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:59,280 And I remember somebody calling me out because I convinced 873 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,440 somebody not to buy a puppet from me. Like, that's 874 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,000 how good at marketing I am. That is the example 875 00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:11,119 I give, Like I I think it's just I think, 876 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,039 like a lot of people, especially in this day and age, 877 00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:16,440 where everybody's you know, trying to market themselves and you're 878 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,159 a brand and so yourself, that just doesn't feel authentic. 879 00:43:20,199 --> 00:43:24,800 And I've never liked pressuring people, and I've never liked 880 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,519 being like, hey, look at me, you know, so it's 881 00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:34,800 really hard for me to bridge those things and and 882 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,320 and find a way that feels authentic and doesn't feel 883 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,920 like I'm just posting a bunch of stuff. So I'm not. 884 00:43:41,199 --> 00:43:43,719 I've not done a very good job of it, to 885 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,440 be completely honest, and I've tried, and I've pushed myself 886 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,360 and I'm trying in these and I will continue to. 887 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,880 But I will you've got advice or lessons or whatever, 888 00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,000 like I'm open minded on that stuff. 889 00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:02,119 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can help you much because 890 00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:05,039 that's also something I didn't enjoy. And you know, I 891 00:44:05,119 --> 00:44:07,480 probably should have done a lot more marketing before launching 892 00:44:07,519 --> 00:44:10,760 Potion Problem if I wanted it to be more financially successful, 893 00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:12,559 but I think I just wanted to be done with 894 00:44:12,639 --> 00:44:13,920 it when when I was at. 895 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 2: That, Yeah, I think, well, like I think one of 896 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,400 the things that I tell myself is also like the 897 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,280 success is not necessarily financial success, right, And I think 898 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,480 for you it's probably the same, right, it's finishing it 899 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,159 or there are different levels of success or different aspects 900 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:31,400 of it, and financial success is one piece of it. 901 00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:34,039 And I don't think financial success is very likely on 902 00:44:34,079 --> 00:44:36,280 your first game, right, like your. 903 00:44:36,199 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: First visuals with how many games are on Steam on 904 00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:40,840 a daily basis at this point. 905 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 2: Right, So I think it's more about obviously that we 906 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:46,760 shouldn't use that as an excuse to not do it, 907 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,880 which is easy to do. But I think there were 908 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,719 different parts or different time periods over the last three 909 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,360 years where I've really like needed quote unquote this game 910 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,480 to do well for financially, Like when I was working 911 00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:04,000 a job that I really was unhappy in for example, 912 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,679 whereas like this will get me out, you know what 913 00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:10,800 I mean, And that's not really a healthy or helpful 914 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,000 at either, right to Like, so I think now that 915 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:19,760 I have a job where I'm happy, I would be 916 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,559 great if the game made a lot of money, but 917 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:27,800 that's you know, not that's not success right for me? 918 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:28,360 Right now? 919 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: That's yeah, that sounds no. I mean, I just love 920 00:45:33,039 --> 00:45:34,800 I was self aware you are of that. It feels 921 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,079 very healthy, uh, the way the way you set it 922 00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:39,840 up there, and that was something I wanted Dimension dudes. 923 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,000 I feel like my one part that I remember a 924 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,159 big part of this development was when you were doing 925 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,840 the monthly I think it was monthly devlogs, right, And 926 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,559 I think that was because you you were working a 927 00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:52,480 full time job and then you left that and then 928 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,079 you were kind of putting a lot of time into 929 00:45:54,079 --> 00:45:56,280 the game, and then you had to get a job again, 930 00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,719 and then at some point in there, like Switchheads, you 931 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,280 were on there and not off there. So just in 932 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:01,920 terms of like how much time you have on a 933 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,079 daily basis, But those devlogs, I really love those. And 934 00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:07,079 I don't know how much those move the needle in 935 00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:09,159 terms of like the marketing side of it, but even 936 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,159 for me personally, just like to have that and feel like, 937 00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:15,039 oh man, so many of these feelings you're having. I'm 938 00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:17,639 feeling too working on my project and stuff, and just 939 00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:20,599 how personal it was and just to see those updates 940 00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:24,320 was really fun. So I really enjoyed those those devlogs. 941 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 2: Those are cool, yeah, And I think maybe you can 942 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,760 relate to this too as somebody who's making a game, 943 00:46:30,599 --> 00:46:32,280 you know, like I did higher out parts, but it 944 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,119 still is me at the end of the day, like 945 00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:37,159 making the decisions and telling people what to do, and 946 00:46:37,639 --> 00:46:42,400 it's really my game, right, Like ultimately, like you're doing 947 00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,199 so many things that like it's really like all this 948 00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,920 time that you're spending marketing or especially if it's stuff 949 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:54,519 that you're not sure that it even matters, like posting 950 00:46:54,559 --> 00:46:57,840 on social media or writing devlogs. Like, it's really nice 951 00:46:57,880 --> 00:46:59,440 to hear you say that, because I would write these 952 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,519 things and I would share them, and then I'd just 953 00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:04,519 be like, did I just waste a lot of time 954 00:47:04,599 --> 00:47:06,360 that I could have been working on the game when 955 00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:08,639 I have limited time because I'm working a job, and 956 00:47:08,679 --> 00:47:11,280 you know what I mean, like writing this and thinking 957 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,440 of this idea and sharing it, and that's kind of 958 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,719 where I landed of and that's where I've also kind 959 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:19,079 of like, especially for this first game, of like I 960 00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:23,880 just need to make the game, like that's that's without that, 961 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:25,599 like you have nothing. 962 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:29,400 Speaker 1: So yeah, definitely, I mean I think inherently too, like 963 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,360 if you go on to make other games, release more 964 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,760 games on Steam, the fact that you have something else 965 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,360 on Steam and people can be like, oh, whatever this 966 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,159 project is, click on the developer name, Oh there's another 967 00:47:37,159 --> 00:47:38,679 game here. I'm gonna check this game out. Like I 968 00:47:38,679 --> 00:47:41,079 feel like there's a lot of that starts happening naturally 969 00:47:41,079 --> 00:47:43,400 over time too, once you build up a bit more 970 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:43,639 of that. 971 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,519 Speaker 2: But absolutely, yeah, I mean I was talking to somebody 972 00:47:47,559 --> 00:47:49,480 else about this or write a friend of mine and Dan, 973 00:47:49,639 --> 00:47:53,159 you know Dan, and he was like, yeah, you think 974 00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:55,320 of him as like lightning rods, Like, not all of 975 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,079 your lightning rods are gonna get attract lightning, but the 976 00:47:58,119 --> 00:47:59,760 more you put out there, one of them might hit, 977 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,519 you know. Yeah, And I liked that metaphor that he used, 978 00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:05,440 So that's how it's like, that's why I'm like, I've 979 00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:10,440 learned so much from doing this. It would be I mean, 980 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,880 it wouldn't be stupid to quit, but it would be like, 981 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,360 in some ways, I'm like, it would be stupid to 982 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,320 not try one more time, you know what I mean. 983 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:22,039 Be a little more efficient, be a little bit more knowledgeable, 984 00:48:22,159 --> 00:48:25,199 you know. But I also totally understand why people make 985 00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,000 one game and then they're like, that was a lot 986 00:48:28,039 --> 00:48:29,559 of work, and I never want to do that again, 987 00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:29,880 you know. 988 00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:34,320 Speaker 1: Mm hmmmmm uh Okay, I I don't think I have 989 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,960 any more like specific game questions, but I guess other 990 00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:40,599 than yeah, you kind of already hinted that maybe like 991 00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:43,960 post launch you might maybe do some more levels or something. 992 00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:45,880 But what like right now, obviously we're a few days 993 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,039 out from the release date. In an ideal world, what 994 00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:50,199 does like the post launch look like for this for you, 995 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,840 Like maybe a couple bug fixes, maybe you want to 996 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,400 do a bit more or you kind of like ready 997 00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,719 to move on and try something else where you are 998 00:48:58,840 --> 00:48:59,199 right now. 999 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 2: It's funny because if you'd asked me that question like 1000 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,880 two or three weeks ago, I would have been like, 1001 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:04,440 I'm gonna do the bug fixes and I'm going to 1002 00:49:04,519 --> 00:49:07,800 move on. But something about being knee deep in it 1003 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,639 right now, I'm like, maybe I'll do one small content update, 1004 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,239 But I also could see myself really changing my mind, 1005 00:49:18,599 --> 00:49:20,320 you know what I mean. And some of it is 1006 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,679 like if and I don't expect like hundreds of thousands 1007 00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,519 of people to buy my game or anything like that, 1008 00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,039 far from it, but like some of it is, well 1009 00:49:32,079 --> 00:49:35,400 what happens, you know, like is there people who are 1010 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,360 playing it that where it feels like if I put 1011 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,639 out a content update there would actually be people who 1012 00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,199 would enjoy it, or have the people that have played 1013 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,280 it played it and moved on, And it's kind of 1014 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,119 silly to do that. So I think it's a little 1015 00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:51,239 bit of gauging that. But I definitely want to at 1016 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,920 least do a handful of updates to fix things. And 1017 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,679 there are there are things on my list right now 1018 00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:03,559 that are like small, polishy things that I'm like, I'll 1019 00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:05,920 package that in with a bug fix update if I can, 1020 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,039 you know what I mean, like like little quality of 1021 00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:10,719 life things. I don't even know what they are off 1022 00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,280 the top of my head, but there's a handful of 1023 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:14,400 things where I've been like, yeah, that would be good 1024 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,480 if if I did that, but it's not critical, and 1025 00:50:17,519 --> 00:50:20,239 so that could fit in with a bug fix update 1026 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,760 at one point one or whatever. You know, we'll see 1027 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:24,599 if we ever get to the two point zero. Yeah. 1028 00:50:24,679 --> 00:50:27,840 Speaker 1: Well, and then you mentioned also like maybe revamping that demo. 1029 00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,079 I guess just updating that demo you have to have 1030 00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:33,039 something that's a bit more reflective of the final product there, 1031 00:50:33,079 --> 00:50:35,719 which because I I forget what that what the demo 1032 00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:36,840 is currently is, it just. 1033 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,760 Speaker 2: Can't really mean it's really meaning. Actually it is about 1034 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,760 a third of the game, okay, yeah, which is a lot. 1035 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,719 And that's why I was definitely hesitating. It was like, 1036 00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,000 is this too much to give away for free? That's 1037 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,679 why I'm like, if you're if you're on the fence, 1038 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:58,800 check it out. You know, I don't think it's that 1039 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,000 hard for me to update it, So it just kind 1040 00:51:01,039 --> 00:51:04,159 of makes sense for me to keep that at parody 1041 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:08,239 every time I do a bug fix, unless it doesn't 1042 00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:11,719 affect the demo, you know, So I kind of plan 1043 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,400 on continuing to support the demo as long as I'm 1044 00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,239 supporting the game. But if there are content updates and 1045 00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:21,119 stuff like that, that's not going to go in the demo. Yeah. 1046 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then how about so obviously game jams. I'm 1047 00:51:24,639 --> 00:51:26,039 sure you plan to do a lot more of those, 1048 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,480 But I've found, for sure, especially in that last year 1049 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,000 of making Potion problem, the amount of intrusive thoughts I 1050 00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:32,199 had to push away of, like, well, I have a 1051 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:36,079 cool game idea and really work on this, Like are 1052 00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:37,800 you just bubbling with those right now, or are you 1053 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,760 like trying your hardest to like dig a hole, throw 1054 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,119 them in the hottle and bury it up. 1055 00:51:41,679 --> 00:51:46,039 Speaker 2: I definitely am bubbling with those. And I think doing 1056 00:51:46,599 --> 00:51:48,719 the game jam with you and the game jam I 1057 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:54,920 did prior to that, both of those inspired me. I mean, 1058 00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,239 I mean I wouldn't even mind returning to that idea, 1059 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,199 like that was a cool idea. Yeah, But also like 1060 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,440 I think I found myself. It's kind of funny because 1061 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:06,480 I think game jams will do that to you. Like 1062 00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:09,199 my son and I both after one of the game jams, 1063 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,679 We're both like sitting here working on new ideas, like 1064 00:52:14,199 --> 00:52:16,679 and then I'm like wait a minute, like, I this 1065 00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:17,199 is dumb. 1066 00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:19,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. My rule was like as far as I'll go 1067 00:52:20,079 --> 00:52:22,280 is I'll put things on a Google doc, but I'm 1068 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:24,760 not allowed to open a new game maker project. 1069 00:52:24,519 --> 00:52:27,679 Speaker 2: Do an art for like the game. And then I 1070 00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:32,039 was like whoa, Like stop, you know this is cool, 1071 00:52:32,159 --> 00:52:34,920 but like let's let's let's slow a roll up. 1072 00:52:35,199 --> 00:52:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 1073 00:52:36,039 --> 00:52:41,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely don't know, uh exactly, I have 1074 00:52:42,119 --> 00:52:45,480 what I'll do next, but I have a lot of ideas. Yeah, gotcha. 1075 00:52:45,679 --> 00:52:48,440 Speaker 1: Uh so as we wrap up on monochrom Heights here, 1076 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,920 any I don't know, do you have any final lesson 1077 00:52:51,039 --> 00:52:54,000 or a final funny story or a funny glitch in 1078 00:52:54,039 --> 00:52:55,960 the game, Like, I don't know any one good final 1079 00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:56,719 anecdote for us. 1080 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:02,719 Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I think it's just I mean this, well, 1081 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:07,519 maybe a couple things real briefly, like the the glitch 1082 00:53:07,639 --> 00:53:09,800 that just won't go away. It's like I've had this 1083 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:14,519 cannonball glitch in the game and I fixed it, and 1084 00:53:14,599 --> 00:53:16,079 I've tried to fix it and I fixed it in 1085 00:53:16,119 --> 00:53:18,880 multiple different ways, and then just yesterday, I think it 1086 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,639 was maybe two days ago, I realized that the fix 1087 00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:23,880 I was implementing it only works in the editor and 1088 00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:27,039 doesn't work in the build, because I was playing the 1089 00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:29,199 game and it happened, and I'm like, what the heck, 1090 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,880 And I went to the editor and I'm like, it's fixed, 1091 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,480 and then I just was like, wait a minute, I 1092 00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:38,159 think this is something is you know what I mean, 1093 00:53:38,199 --> 00:53:39,760 if you ever had that problem, that is a really 1094 00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,159 frustrating problem to have where something works in the engine 1095 00:53:43,159 --> 00:53:45,880 but doesn't it work in your builds, And so I 1096 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,800 basically had to redesign a solution differently that at least 1097 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,599 I think is working. And that was just the other day, 1098 00:53:54,639 --> 00:53:56,920 so that was like a little stressful. But also it's 1099 00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:58,519 not that big of a deal. It's not a glitch 1100 00:53:58,559 --> 00:54:02,920 that like really matter. It's just a visual thing. I 1101 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,639 mean it does basically the canball will fire twice sometimes 1102 00:54:06,679 --> 00:54:09,159 if you respawn it just the right time and it's 1103 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,559 firing sequence and it has two cannonballs, and I'm like 1104 00:54:12,639 --> 00:54:15,480 and it looks ugly and it okay, it just kind 1105 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:15,800 of well. 1106 00:54:15,679 --> 00:54:17,800 Speaker 1: At least your game is hard, so if that happens, 1107 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,199 people are like, oh, it's just a hard game. 1108 00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:27,159 Speaker 2: So that one is for us is like frustrating and 1109 00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:28,960 funny to me at the same time. But I also 1110 00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:31,800 feel like, I don't know, there are some glitches that 1111 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:33,880 have been around for a while, and as I've gotten 1112 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:38,599 better at programming and coding, like I'm just so much 1113 00:54:38,639 --> 00:54:43,559 better at bug fixing now and debugging and that sort 1114 00:54:43,559 --> 00:54:46,760 of thing. Like, so there are some like that one, 1115 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,159 for example, and another glitcher two that had been in 1116 00:54:49,199 --> 00:54:51,079 the game for a really long time that I hadn't 1117 00:54:51,079 --> 00:54:53,239 even messed with because they're just kind of minor and rare, 1118 00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:56,000 where when I finally sat down within the last month 1119 00:54:56,119 --> 00:54:58,440 or two to try to fix them, I'm just like, oh, 1120 00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,760 that's what it is. And it's like I tried to 1121 00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:04,960 fix this a year ago for like a week straight 1122 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:06,840 and couldn't figure it out, and here I am in 1123 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:11,159 one hour like identifying and solving it, you know, And 1124 00:55:11,199 --> 00:55:14,519 so maybe there's a lesson there of Like that's another 1125 00:55:14,559 --> 00:55:16,280 reason I'm like I got to just make a second game, 1126 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,159 because I'm not saying I'm great at any of these things, 1127 00:55:19,159 --> 00:55:21,239 because I'm really not, but I have leveled up. 1128 00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:26,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely right on. That's that's great to hear. 1129 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:27,960 And then just one last question for you, and this 1130 00:55:28,039 --> 00:55:29,800 is a selfish one because I don't get to listen 1131 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,239 to you on a weekly basis on a podcast anymore. 1132 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,119 What have you been playing lately? Any gaming highlights of 1133 00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:38,760 anything you've played last I know you've been way too 1134 00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,960 busy just working on Monochrome, especially in the finish line here, 1135 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:42,679 But what have you been playing? 1136 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,480 Speaker 2: I have like been putting off playing games I was 1137 00:55:45,519 --> 00:55:48,639 in the last few months, Like I bought Doggie Kung 1138 00:55:48,679 --> 00:55:51,599 Bonanza and I didn't touch it, and my son played 1139 00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,199 a lot of it, and I was like, no, I 1140 00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,519 can't play that. And then I broke down and I 1141 00:55:55,559 --> 00:55:58,039 was like, I have to play something, like I can't 1142 00:55:58,519 --> 00:56:01,400 deny myself of one of my fits hobbies, like just 1143 00:56:01,440 --> 00:56:06,480 because so I picked up Chickery nice. I love playing Chickery. 1144 00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:10,280 And then Silk Song got announced like last minute. 1145 00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're a big hollow Night guy, right, you love. 1146 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,039 Speaker 2: Hollow Knight pan Yeah, Like, and that's very inspirational to me. 1147 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,159 And so I was like, well, I can't. I can't 1148 00:56:18,159 --> 00:56:20,440 avoid silk Songs. So the two games I've been playing 1149 00:56:20,519 --> 00:56:23,840 quite a decent amount of somehow on top of all 1150 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,039 this is Chickory and Silk Song. 1151 00:56:26,679 --> 00:56:28,800 Speaker 1: Nice. Nice. Okay, I don't want to get any spoilers 1152 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:30,440 out there for Silk Song, but I'll maybe I'll ask 1153 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,239 you off cast where you're at in the game because 1154 00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:35,679 I'm curious. But now that, Yeah, Silk Song was super good. 1155 00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,239 And yeah, Chickery, I love chickry. What I think I 1156 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:39,840 was made in game Maker actually, which has always been 1157 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,119 inspirational for me, like I can't believe this is possible, 1158 00:56:42,159 --> 00:56:44,360 and game Maker like there's so many things I need 1159 00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:46,239 to learn. Clearly, I thought this engine was limited, but 1160 00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:48,480 I see game like that and I'm like, my mind 1161 00:56:48,519 --> 00:56:49,079 is just blown. 1162 00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, both that and wander Song, which is the main 1163 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:54,920 developers previous game or game Maker. 1164 00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. All right. So October seventh, Monochrome Heights 1165 00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,320 is out. If people want, they can also play the demo, 1166 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,719 I guess. So, you know, obviously you're not a big 1167 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:08,840 marketing guy, so let's also help you, hope by maybe 1168 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:10,639 going to the social media's throw alike or a comment 1169 00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:13,960 on your stuff. Where should people go to support you 1170 00:57:14,079 --> 00:57:15,280 and the game in general? 1171 00:57:15,840 --> 00:57:20,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, so my social media accounts and you know, my 1172 00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,559 presence and discorder anywhere else is p d YX is 1173 00:57:23,559 --> 00:57:26,559 what I go by. Sometimes websites require you to have 1174 00:57:26,599 --> 00:57:28,880 more than four characters, so a lot of places I 1175 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,400 am p d Yx one, two three, and then the 1176 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,679 name of my game studio is one Frog Games, and 1177 00:57:36,719 --> 00:57:38,920 I have an account for that on most places too, 1178 00:57:39,719 --> 00:57:40,920 so yeah. 1179 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:42,840 Speaker 1: Right on. Well, Patrick, thank you so much for joining 1180 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:44,280 me this, like I said, a long time coming to 1181 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,280 get you over here on side Quest. This has been 1182 00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,599 a joy, a pleasure. It's always very feel like, very 1183 00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:52,719 cathartic for me too to just hear the development of 1184 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:54,719 your game and how it kind of mirrors things I've 1185 00:57:54,719 --> 00:57:57,119 seen in my life too, So thank you for finally 1186 00:57:57,199 --> 00:57:59,960 joining me here. Thank you everyone for listening, and we 1187 00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:04,360 will see you again next time. Bye bye,