WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:02.240 Jay Richards, thank you for joining me. 2 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:03.960 It's great to be with you, Dave. 3 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:07.200 We've done this a lot, but you've never actually seen 4 00:00:07.240 --> 00:00:10.720 my face. I've been involved with podcasts with you for 5 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.560 over a decade now, but I've always been off to 6 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:15.679 the side, and I've always been heavily involved in the 7 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:19.719 kind of pre and post and sometimes during sliding a 8 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:25.120 little note in like hey ask Jay this, but never uh, 9 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:27.199 never face to face. So this is great, This is 10 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:27.839 really exciting. 11 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:29.399 Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. 12 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:32.600 All right, I want to start with a confession. Can 13 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:33.280 I tell you something? 14 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:36.560 Okay, I used to hate you really. 15 00:00:39.399 --> 00:00:45.240 Yeah, you know, as a young adult, college aged pushing 16 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:47.719 the boundaries of what I grew up with my Christian 17 00:00:47.759 --> 00:00:52.119 faith and flirting with socialism. And my dad would say, 18 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:55.600 You've got to read this guy, Jay Richards, or you've 19 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.920 got to listen to this guy Jay Richards. So I'd 20 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:04.280 look you up. It, uh, this guy with the perfect 21 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:09.079 hair and hustle jaw like classic Republican. 22 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:12.680 Yes, exactly, see this guy coming a mile away. 23 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:16.439 Dead on arrival. I'm not giving him a chance. And 24 00:01:16.640 --> 00:01:19.480 so for the longest time he would just recommend you 25 00:01:19.480 --> 00:01:23.359 you got to read money greeting God as money greeting. 26 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:28.120 Absolutely not. Yeah, you know, it changed what I to you. 27 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:30.840 Oh okay, well, okay, good, I'm glad to hear that. 28 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.079 So maybe I wasn't the caricature you imagine. 29 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:35.719 What you might have been. But you know, it just 30 00:01:35.799 --> 00:01:39.400 goes to show the benefit of actually hearing arguments out 31 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:41.959 as opposed to the projection of what you imagine them 32 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:42.159 to be. 33 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.760 Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, And you know, I mean the reality 34 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.040 is especially in apologetics. I mean, there you can have 35 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.159 a perfectly valid argument, but if it's not delivered the 36 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.680 right way, appropriate to the audience, or you know, it's 37 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:59.239 not received, and so both of those things have absolutely matter. 38 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:00.920 And I reckon that is that when I'm writing about 39 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:05.760 economics and other things that, especially economics, people have lots 40 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:09.680 of mental pictures in their imagination that I think blocks 41 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.360 them from just sort of thinking this passionately about the 42 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:17.199 nature of economic reality, you know, And so that's always fraught. 43 00:02:17.280 --> 00:02:19.560 I can say it's less controversial than the stuff I've 44 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:22.800 been working on the last five years. It's just general ideology, 45 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:27.039 which is existential and obviously much more controversial. But then 46 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:31.240 topics like fasting, which I love, right that's a lot 47 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.560 less controversial, but still, you know, most people kind of 48 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:37.199 have a lot of misconceptions about it, actually, m hm. 49 00:02:37.759 --> 00:02:39.520 So it just goes to show the benefit of listening 50 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:43.159 to people. And even when your name would come up 51 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:48.319 for podcast interviews, that guy, and then we continue to 52 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:51.159 have you on and every time I just love listening 53 00:02:51.199 --> 00:02:54.400 to you because you're curious, which is why you're involved 54 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:55.960 in so many different things. And that's a question that 55 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.199 I want to ask you. Yeah, you also aren't afraid 56 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.800 to change your mind. Yeah, and how do you change 57 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:05.719 your mind about something? I changed my mind about something 58 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:07.960 usually I hate to say it. I wish I were 59 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:11.439 just sort of entirely dispassionate. And I said, Okay, how 60 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:13.599 much do I actually know about this? Okay, it's like 61 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:16.599 one percent of what I probably should know. So I'm 62 00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:19.800 going to study all the best representatives on all sides, 63 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:22.159 or if I can't find a good representative of position, 64 00:03:22.199 --> 00:03:24.159 I'll steal man it myself. Try to come up with 65 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:27.159 the best argument I can think of for a position 66 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:28.000 I disagree with. 67 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:30.919 But it's usually not quite that simple. What it is 68 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:34.199 is that someone that I recognize is intelligent and articulate, 69 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:37.599 says something right, and then it's confirmed by someone else, 70 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:39.560 and then I think, you know, maybe I don't know 71 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:41.840 this topic as well as I think I do. And 72 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.319 then you have this moment of introspection where you say, okay, 73 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:47.439 am I am I just sort of accepting an intellectual 74 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:51.800 orthodoxy or accepting an idea because it's costly to believe otherwise, 75 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:55.039 or have I really looked into it? And as you know, 76 00:03:55.240 --> 00:03:57.159 I mean, if somebody googles me. I've written on a 77 00:03:57.199 --> 00:03:59.840 lot of different topics, but in most of those cases 78 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.000 was because I decided to look into something and realize, okay, wait, 79 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:05.319 there's a lot more here. And in some cases it 80 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:09.400 would be oh wow, I was completely off base and 81 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.039 you know, need to totally change my mind on this, 82 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:14.759 even if it's inconvenient. Other cases, you look into it, 83 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:16.680 it's like, wow, the arguments for this are actually much 84 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:18.399 better than I realized. And so you never kind of 85 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:20.920 know going in if you're going to be serious about 86 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:24.279 investigating a topic. And I think to seriously investigate a 87 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:26.079 topic is to be willing to put yourself in a 88 00:04:26.120 --> 00:04:28.160 position to say okay, got to be willing to say 89 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:31.319 a position I disagree with is that it's possible that 90 00:04:31.399 --> 00:04:33.920 it's true. You know, you don't have to assume it's true, 91 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:36.240 but it's possible it's true. And what would count in 92 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:38.639 its favor, what kind of evidence account its favor? If 93 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.519 you can't do that, you might be right. It's possible 94 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:44.319 that you just landed on all the correct opinions, right, 95 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.040 That's certainly a possibility, but it's unlikely. And the fact 96 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:50.519 that I myself have ended up on different sides of 97 00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.639 issues based upon my own study is a reminder to 98 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:57.800 me that, Okay, we're fallible beings, and there's sometimes I mean, 99 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:00.480 you know, in God's grace, you might just be born 100 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.360 into a family that's already thought these things through, you know, 101 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:06.120 and you can just sort of take that for granted. 102 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:08.879 But in some ways, even your own intellectual confidence usually 103 00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:11.759 requires that at some point as an adult, you look 104 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.079 into these things. But you know, especially in an age 105 00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:16.560 of social media, in which I'm more and more convinced 106 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:20.800 at social media, especially you know, social media apps and 107 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:24.000 the kind of infinite scroll capacity and then the algorithm 108 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:25.800 that sort of gives you more of what you like. 109 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:32.399 It's highly addictive. It's just works against careful deliberative thought. 110 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:37.720 Because it you know, it stimulates us psychologically and you know, 111 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:41.680 I mean literally sort of boosts particular hormones. And so 112 00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.680 I think this has never been more crucial that people 113 00:05:44.759 --> 00:05:48.160 have some kind of internal method that they follow in 114 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.600 order to try to come to your views honestly and 115 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:54.720 carefully when when needed, and just don't be caught sure 116 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:55.920 of things you haven't looked into. 117 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:59.079 Yeah, and it's getting so much harder than ever. I 118 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:02.000 haven't read the article last night. I couldn't sleep. In 119 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:03.199 the middle of the night I saw I say, oh, 120 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:05.120 I'm going to get back to that tomorrow. But it 121 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:08.079 had to do intuitively. I understand what it's getting at 122 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.959 the blue sky versus the X bubble, and how depending 123 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.399 on which platform you're using, your conception of reality is 124 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:18.199 completely altered totally. 125 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:20.920 Yeah, And I constantly remind myself of that. And now 126 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.560 I find the X feed, my X feed indispensable. But 127 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:27.600 it's because I follow particular journalists from different perspectives and 128 00:06:27.920 --> 00:06:33.040 I can very quickly get at least, okay, a representative 129 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:35.920 sample of what people are thinking about something and to 130 00:06:35.959 --> 00:06:39.680 do it quickly. But it's also extremely dangerous, precisely because 131 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:43.319 it's tailored to you, and precisely because not everyone is 132 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:45.920 on social media. I mean, I'm sorry. Yeah, I spend 133 00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:48.439 a number of hours on X, but it's still not 134 00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:51.879 a large segment of the population, and you know, they'll 135 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:55.199 be thinking major controversies that are happening on X, which 136 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:57.800 I'm sort of the middle of at different times. But 137 00:06:57.839 --> 00:07:00.600 then I'll talk to somebody else and it's like, yeah, 138 00:07:00.639 --> 00:07:03.240 I didn't really hadn't heard about that. In fact, I 139 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:06.839 often use my sister, one sibling, my sister who we 140 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:09.240 grew up in Texas. She stayed in Texas. She's plugged 141 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:12.079 into politics and stuff, but she's not hanging out on AX. Yeah, 142 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.519 she's got a job to do. And I kind of 143 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:18.160 use her to as a test. Okay, how deeply into 144 00:07:18.639 --> 00:07:21.199 you know, the broader conversation has this gotten? And if 145 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:23.839 she's totally aware of it, it's like, okay, it's gotten deeper. 146 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:26.399 But if it's some kind of in house sort of 147 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:30.519 dispute on X, you know, it's like you got to realize, Okay, 148 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:32.439 talk to some people that aren't plugged into that and 149 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.639 find out, yeah, how how far it is. And then 150 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.279 as you know, colleagues thatd say, go touch grass and 151 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:40.600 look at the blue sky, get outside, right, I mean 152 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:43.480 so many of them don't in the blue skuy if 153 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.480 it exists, right, I've got it right here outside my 154 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:48.040 window and I hardly even look out there, right. But yeah, 155 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:50.720 I mean this there's so many I think of our 156 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:54.600 sort of maladies these days could certainly for young people, 157 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:57.600 could be solved by kids spending three months working on 158 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.279 a ranch shoveling manure. I mean, honestly, you touch the 159 00:08:01.360 --> 00:08:06.600 material reality, remind yourself of your embodiedness, right, and not 160 00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:08.519 the digital thing. And I say that to somebody who 161 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:10.920 you know, I see all the kind of benefits from 162 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:13.879 this technology, including what we're doing right now. But every 163 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.800 technology has its ups and its downs, and the more 164 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.000 powerful it is, the more severe the downs could be. 165 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.120 Well, and you just touched on the whole premise of 166 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:26.639 the name of this podcast, a commitment to reality. It's 167 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:30.160 like I just began to sense more and more that 168 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:34.120 if we don't literally hold onto the ground, you're floating 169 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:36.200 off into the ether. I mean, there's no limit to 170 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:37.440 how ridiculous it can get. 171 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.679 Yeah, and yeah, absolutely, I mean this is you know, 172 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.000 I wrote a book. In fact, your dad interviewed me 173 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:46.919 about it, I believe the human advantage back in twenty eighteen, 174 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:49.919 really addressing I wish I had written it in twenty 175 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:51.759 twenty five because all the stuff I was talking about 176 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:55.039 in the book is happening now, right, self driving cars, 177 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:58.639 genuine robots that are you know, android in appearance and 178 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:01.879 kind of autonomous, not plugged in somewhere. All that stuff's 179 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:04.360 happening now. The book was really a defense of the 180 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.360 human person and not this dystopian vision, not this kind 181 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:11.440 of anti technology screed, but like, look, there are lots 182 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:13.360 of technologies that are going to be coming online in 183 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.320 the next few years, are going to change our lives. 184 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.279 We're going to change the way we work. It is 185 00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:20.080 not going to replace us as humans. Human beings are 186 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:23.559 not machines, so machines can't replace us. It will just 187 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:26.440 change the types of work we do. More things get automated. 188 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:30.080 But you know, this was you know, kind of realization, 189 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:32.360 because what's happened if you were to say, okay, so 190 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:35.639 what distinguishes like say, the information economy from the service 191 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.759 or the industrial economies went before, well one is called digitization. 192 00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:44.320 This is what the kind of uh information economy economists 193 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:46.679 talk about. And so it's moving from the world of 194 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:48.759 molecules to the world of bits, in which more and 195 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:51.159 more things that before you thought of, okay they need 196 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:55.320 to have a physical manifestation can actually be converted into bits. 197 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:57.279 That is the kind of the language of software. So 198 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:00.759 you know the way we consume music, right Initially it 199 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:03.039 was literally had to have a music, you know, the 200 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:04.960 musicians in front of you, and then we figured out 201 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:07.200 how to record it. At one point in my own 202 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.080 lifetime as a little kid, I was listening to my 203 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.559 mom's LPs. Uh the you know, the vital discs, and 204 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:15.080 then you're like, what is that? Yeah, exactly these, And 205 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:17.679 then we went to a thing called eight track tapes, 206 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:20.799 which was a terrible technology. That was a transition to cassettes, 207 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.879 and then it went to CDs. Where are we now, Well, 208 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:25.799 I haven't bought a CD. I can't remember the last 209 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.840 time I bought a CD because everything is streamed and 210 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.919 so it's just this it's a fully digital kind of 211 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:36.679 manifestation of something that you know initially had to be physical. 212 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.279 And so that's when we realize that, Okay, that's the 213 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:42.679 nature of the information economy. Is that movement. But we 214 00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:46.600 live in the world of molecules. Right, we have bodies, uh, 215 00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.879 you know, we're you know, we have things in common 216 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:53.039 with other organisms in our environment. And so if we 217 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:57.399 get too detached from that fundamental human reality that we 218 00:10:57.440 --> 00:11:00.480 are embodied. God has created us as the these sort 219 00:11:00.519 --> 00:11:04.120 of unique material spiritual hybrids that are fully fully material 220 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:07.279 and fully spiritual, you can put it that way. And 221 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.840 anything that sort of that alienates us from that, there's 222 00:11:10.840 --> 00:11:13.240 gonna be some cost to it, and we got to 223 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.759 become aware of it. Doesn't mean you can't use your 224 00:11:15.799 --> 00:11:19.360 computer again. It probably means you need to buy intention 225 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:25.399 do things to cultivate and remind yourself that your embodied. Yeah. 226 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:28.720 A friend of mine from church came up to me 227 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:32.279 around Christmas and he gave me a gift. I don't 228 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:36.080 need a gift, so actually it's for your fortieth birthday. 229 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:39.159 I just getting into a little late. So I went 230 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.360 and I sat in the car and I started to 231 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:48.360 unwrap it and I gasped fun. He didn't read my mind, 232 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:49.279 he read my soul. 233 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:50.080 Wow. 234 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:55.480 He gave me a cassette Blair with two blank cassettes, 235 00:11:56.200 --> 00:12:02.480 and I thought wow. And my wife got me a 236 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:07.440 landline that connects my Bluetooth to your cell phone, so that, oh, 237 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:08.200 that works. 238 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:10.279 But it's a sort of a regular phone that you 239 00:12:10.320 --> 00:12:10.759 pick up with. 240 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:14.080 It's a regular phone that you pick up and so 241 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.639 and then what we're intending to do is to set, 242 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:20.600 you know, for a period of time, let's say it's 243 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.320 on Sunday, to set a almost done away message. If 244 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:27.919 you remember from the old chat machines, Yes that if 245 00:12:27.919 --> 00:12:30.200 you get a text that says, hey, I'm not on 246 00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.440 my phone right now, or whatever disclaimer you want to 247 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.480 put out there, give me a buzz if you really 248 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:39.879 need me, here's the number and you can call and 249 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:44.919 all of that. It's what you're saying. It's intentionality, it's okay, 250 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.399 instead of listening to whatever the algorithm thinks that I want, 251 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:54.919 and it could be dangerously good. It's unbelievable, and you 252 00:12:55.000 --> 00:12:59.440 discover and it's so hard because you discover things. There 253 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.519 are bands that I've discovered via the algorithm that it says, 254 00:13:02.799 --> 00:13:04.679 you know what Dave based on your listening, I think 255 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:08.360 you'd like this, And I say, you're right, that's great. 256 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.320 I never would have discovered that on my own. 257 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:10.960 I know it. 258 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.080 But there's also music that I haven't listened to because 259 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.240 it gets buried, that's right. And then I find it 260 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.159 and I say, wow, I love this album. Why don't 261 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:19.759 I listen to this? 262 00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:20.360 Yeah? 263 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:24.320 And so the cassette player a CD LPs like you 264 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.080 saying what, and they're all kind of having a renaissance. 265 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.360 I don't know if this. 266 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:32.279 Yeah, my younger daughter actually has an LP for playing 267 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.639 vinyl records, which have their own sound. It's like a 268 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:36.879 kind of a cool sound that you know, you lose 269 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:39.600 in a digital medium. But it's funny. But if you 270 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.240 think about it, even cassettes or even that even right, 271 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.320 the LPs were a move toward digitization, right, so we 272 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:51.799 moved from okay, I need to be in the presence 273 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:54.559 of a string quartet to hear it, and it's going 274 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:56.039 to go off into the ether and no one can 275 00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:57.840 ever hear it again. And you record it, you sort 276 00:13:57.879 --> 00:13:59.600 of freeze that in place, right, so you're able to 277 00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:03.039 remove the experience of the listening from that kind of 278 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:06.480 physical origin point. And so we're already sort of moving 279 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.799 in that way. But there is something I think profoundly 280 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.639 different about the kind of radical digitization combined with radical 281 00:14:15.679 --> 00:14:19.919 connectivity too, that that just you know, these are these 282 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:23.240 things are beneficial, but they can also amplify all of 283 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.480 our sort of worse aspects. I mean, it's just like 284 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:27.960 the more connected and the more you can communicate with 285 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:32.240 other people, the easierness to communicate the evil plans, right, 286 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:35.600 And so that's just that's always true. But I think 287 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:38.799 it's especially important now that people have a good anthropology 288 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:41.120 and a good metaphysics because so much of the debate 289 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:45.000 about artificial intelligence and transhumanism it's a proxy war for 290 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:49.120 people's metaphysical differences, and so the materialist has a particular 291 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.360 take on this. Theists and Christians ought to see it differently, 292 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.240 but sometimes they themselves don't know how to sort of 293 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.519 translate their theological views into this kind of complicated technical zone. 294 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:03.279 But I think there's never been a time in which 295 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:08.879 having good metaphysics is necessary for sort of analyzing technological trends. 296 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.320 Yeah, and so I actually wanted to ask you about 297 00:15:11.320 --> 00:15:14.840 this later, but I since we're in it. Yeah, how 298 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:17.159 do you use AI, because I know you use it? 299 00:15:17.399 --> 00:15:22.320 Oh, yeah, absolutely, I use it quite liberally, I would say. So, 300 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:24.360 I mean I think I did I have the benefit 301 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.360 I'm at gen X, and so I had the experience 302 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:30.799 of using actual physical card catalogs as a look. Yet, 303 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.159 and even in graduate school there was still a card 304 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.120 catalog and a big library I use. And then we 305 00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:39.840 went to the cd ROM databases, and then you know, 306 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.679 of course we've got search engines in which journals are online. 307 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.759 And the search engines themselves were amazing. I still remember 308 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:49.399 my first Google search around I don't know, nineteen ninety 309 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:53.679 nine or two thousand and the ais by which these days, 310 00:15:53.720 --> 00:15:56.600 when people say AAIs they're mainly referring to the chatbots, 311 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.600 even though search engines are a form of AI. But 312 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.519 they're so good, and they were good even when they 313 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:05.320 were hallucinating a lot right at the beginning, because they 314 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:08.879 are so good with natural language that everyone's recognized, Okay, 315 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:12.600 the capacity to be able to use natural human language 316 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:15.080 like a human. That's a high bar. Because even though 317 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.039 we have the rules, of course, there's grammatical rules and 318 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:21.159 spelling rules, it can be easily delineated, there's just a 319 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.840 lot more going on when two humans, you know, two 320 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:28.279 conscious agents are communicating. And so it's tempting to think, okay, 321 00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:31.399 now we're reaching a point in which our technology it's 322 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.720 getting more like us. Right before, Okay, a tractor. That's 323 00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.279 not like us. That's right, Maybe that replaces a job 324 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:41.159 for an oxygen. But you know, well the mental stuff 325 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:43.120 and the intellectual stuff that seems like it's like us, 326 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:45.559 and so it seems sort of scary, but it's easy 327 00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:48.480 to forget that. Okay, those chatbots, how did they get 328 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:50.159 so good? They got so good because they have this 329 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:52.559 massive amount of data that it can be trained on, 330 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:55.840 and all of that data was produced by human beings, 331 00:16:55.879 --> 00:17:00.000 intelligent agents, every webpage, every journal article. It's just really 332 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.400 good at running the statistics and you know, under discovering 333 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.880 underlying patterns we might not have noticed. And then of 334 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:10.880 course the systems themselves are are designed by software engineers. 335 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.200 They're optimized or tweaked, and so humans are still all 336 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:16.920 over this, and so again it's just another tool, but 337 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:19.839 it's a very it's a very amazing and sophisticated tool. 338 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:22.960 And so I would say at the moment, my main 339 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:26.640 use for the for the chatbots is for research. I know, 340 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:28.799 that's that's actually kind of a really low level thing. 341 00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:31.319 I don't use it to write by papers or something 342 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:35.000 like that. I will ask it, okay, find the most 343 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:38.799 authoritative and most cited reference on this topic and it'll 344 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:41.119 find it. I mean, it's just like that can help 345 00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:44.960 you summarize. It's just really really powerful, and so it's 346 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.920 it's qualitatively different from the experience of search engines, which 347 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:51.880 just kind of give you a list of other sides. 348 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.200 And so, I mean, the reality is, if everyone else 349 00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:59.960 is using these chatbots and you're not, you're basically foregoing 350 00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:03.079 the use of a tool that would make you much 351 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.440 better at probably what you're doing. At the same time, 352 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.680 that tool is really good for cheaters, right that want 353 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:12.000 to just you know, it's like the days of a 354 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.160 professor giving an essay exam and then just having it 355 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.880 turned in are probably over. You've got to have checks 356 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:20.440 and balances. That might just mean that, okay, you got 357 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:22.680 to go back to blue book exams where they're you know, 358 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.559 you've written out, or to oral exams or you know, 359 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:28.240 and then that's which is actually really a better test 360 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:30.839 of knowledge anyway, but it's much more labor intensive. And 361 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.240 so I mean, it's it's important to remember that we're 362 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.359 just a couple or three years in to these chatbots 363 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:38.799 and they're already amazing. Imagine what they're going to be 364 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:39.920 like in ten years. 365 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:44.920 Well, that's I guess the fantasy and the fear right exact. 366 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:47.599 And we're all kind of in the middle of that 367 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:52.640 moment where we're trying to figure out what's in this 368 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.720 lamp and do we want to keep it in or 369 00:18:54.720 --> 00:19:00.440 take it out? And and there's this kind of consensus 370 00:19:01.359 --> 00:19:05.039 everybody who's working on this technology has a fear of it, right, 371 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.519 and yet we can't stop that's right, Hey, what do 372 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:09.079 you make of that? 373 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:11.400 Well, it's funny you say that, because I just read 374 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.000 this book just a few days ago. If anyone builds it, 375 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:18.720 we all die, which is absolute, Like the title gives. 376 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.359 The whole thing is they run these scenarios by which 377 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:24.519 it seems almost inevitable that eventually we build a superintelligence 378 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:26.200 that won't have a need for us, and we're gonna 379 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:29.079 all end up dead. And they created as plausible a 380 00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:31.680 scenario as you can for that. At the same time, 381 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:35.759 the book is a long exercise in equivocation and begging 382 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:39.400 the question, because they just presuppose. Like in the whole 383 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.160 sort of artificial intelligence debate, there's this idea of the 384 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.599 hard problem of consciousness. How do you account for first 385 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:49.720 person perspective or that our thoughts are about things. That's 386 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.400 not a molecules aren't about things, but our thoughts are 387 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.440 about things, right, And so anybody that's gonna deal with 388 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.000 this stuff has to have some way of dealing with that. Well. 389 00:19:58.000 --> 00:19:59.400 The way the authors of the book deal with it 390 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.920 is just to comply ignore it and just talk about 391 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.920 computers choosing things and determining and preferring and having opinions 392 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:08.640 and deciding and doing all the things that agents do. 393 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:12.160 But they never justify that these things could ever be conscious, 394 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.400 intelligent agents, which is so they just beg the biggest 395 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:18.920 philosophical question of all And I think that's the that's 396 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.680 the problem with so many people that worked in this area. 397 00:20:22.200 --> 00:20:24.599 On the one hand, if you ask them, okay, what's 398 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:27.359 happening under the hood, it's like, okay, it's actually fairly simple. 399 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.400 I forget if it was Gary Wolferm or someone that 400 00:20:30.440 --> 00:20:33.880 wrote a little book about like what's happening with chat GPT, 401 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:36.599