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<v Speaker 1>Height five fifty five kr CE DE Talk Station. A

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<v Speaker 1>very happy Wednesday to you by Thomas Please to welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to the fifty five CARC Morning Show. A renowned author,

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<v Speaker 1>Richard J. Huddo. He served as the White House Appointment

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<v Speaker 1>Secretary of the Carter family was chairman of the Georgia

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<v Speaker 1>Council for the Arts. He is one of the foremost

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<v Speaker 1>historians of the Gilded Age, author of a number of

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<v Speaker 1>books on the Gilded Age. I don't want to pick

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<v Speaker 1>this one out and mention it specifically. A peculiar tribe

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<v Speaker 1>of people, murder and madness in the heart of Georgia.

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<v Speaker 1>Not only was it adapted for television. I love what

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<v Speaker 1>the Atlanta Journal Constitution talked about this twenty ten book.

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<v Speaker 1>A Southern grotesque that comes complete with stately mansions, murder,

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<v Speaker 1>most vile, forbidden sex, a pot boiling trial, and a

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<v Speaker 1>duma worthy of a Greek tragedy, with an ending even

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<v Speaker 1>Sophocles wouldn't wish on his worst enemy. Welcome, Welcome, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>gonna have to read that one. Richard J. Huddo, author

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<v Speaker 1>of a book we're talking about today, The Countess and

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<v Speaker 1>the Nazis. It's a pleasure to have you on today. Richard,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm delighted to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.

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<v Speaker 1>I love that Atlanta Journal Constitution description. Anyhow, moving over

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<v Speaker 1>to your new book, The Countess and the Nazis sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>an American family's private war Gilded Age. The woman you

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<v Speaker 1>write about, tell my listeners a little bit about her,

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<v Speaker 1>and I guess I'm kind of curious to know where

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<v Speaker 1>your fascination with the Gilded Age came in. That was

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<v Speaker 1>the late eighteen hundreds up to around nineteen hundred period of.

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<v Speaker 2>Time married these titled husbands, and of course very few

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<v Speaker 2>of them were love matches. Most of them were pretty

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<v Speaker 2>crass exchanges of a title for money. You know, if

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<v Speaker 2>my daughter is a duchess, then they have to accept

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<v Speaker 2>me that kind of thing. But then when I came

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<v Speaker 2>across this particular woman, Muriel White, she was totally different.

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<v Speaker 2>She was out out of the ordinary, very very wealthy,

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<v Speaker 2>privileged background, spoke five languages. I mean, she could have

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<v Speaker 2>just been a social diletant, you know, having cocktail parties

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<v Speaker 2>with her friends, but she didn't do that. She actually

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<v Speaker 2>devoted herself to her family and to the families of

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<v Speaker 2>the people who worked for her and of course bought

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<v Speaker 2>the Nazis from within. Very unusual woman.

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<v Speaker 1>So how did she get from America to well, what

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<v Speaker 1>I ended up being Nazi Germany.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, her father was probably the best ambassador of the

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<v Speaker 2>United States has ever produced, at least Teddy Roosevelt said so.

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<v Speaker 2>So her father had been an ambassador in France to France,

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<v Speaker 2>but she was born there in Paris, but born to

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<v Speaker 2>American parents, And so after the father was the first

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<v Speaker 2>secretary at the USM Missige in London, then ambassador to Italy,

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<v Speaker 2>and then ambassador to France. She had so of course

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<v Speaker 2>traveled with them and learned very early on sort of

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<v Speaker 2>all of the protocol that that was necessary. Her mom

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<v Speaker 2>was ill quite a bit of the time, so Muriel

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<v Speaker 2>would step up and sort of take over her mother's role.

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<v Speaker 2>It was perfect for her. As I said earlier, she

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<v Speaker 2>had just wanted to be a social boddice, but instead

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<v Speaker 2>she turned to a life of service and ended up

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<v Speaker 2>actually giving up her life because of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I understand she was the wife of a Prussian count.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. She was only twenty nine, or rather was

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<v Speaker 2>twenty nine getting a little long in the tooth. According

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<v Speaker 2>to some people when she married Count Monti Sehertass as

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<v Speaker 2>you said, was a Silesian count. He was in the military.

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<v Speaker 2>There very very old family. They moved though into the families.

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<v Speaker 2>After she married, they moved into the family's secondary residence,

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<v Speaker 2>which was sort of a dump. So she used her

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<v Speaker 2>fortune to bring it up to standards, to put in

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<v Speaker 2>running water and electricity and make sure that the servants

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<v Speaker 2>didn't have to bring buckets of water in from outside.

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<v Speaker 2>And she had then started taking care of all of

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<v Speaker 2>the families of all of the people who worked for her.

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<v Speaker 2>Her husband was not particularly helpful, but she kept doing

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<v Speaker 2>it anyway. And then with the rise of fascism and

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<v Speaker 2>also Nazism, she thought, I thought those things from within

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<v Speaker 2>and got her two draft age sons out of the country.

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<v Speaker 2>And for that, of course, the Gestapo kept coming to

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<v Speaker 2>her and saying, you have to return your sons their

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<v Speaker 2>marriageable age. You have to let us know where they are.

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<v Speaker 2>Plus she had done other things like helping some pilots escape,

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<v Speaker 2>and they wanted to know how she did that, and

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<v Speaker 2>so that what they said to her was, unless you

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<v Speaker 2>return your sons to us, unless you tell us how

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<v Speaker 2>you've done all this, we're going to take you to Auschwitz.

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<v Speaker 2>They gave her notice, and one particular morning she saw

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<v Speaker 2>them turn into her driveway, knowing what they were doing,

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<v Speaker 2>that they were coming to take her to Auschwitz, that

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<v Speaker 2>she would be tortured, she climbed up to the tower

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<v Speaker 2>of her castle and jumped to her death instead. Oh

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<v Speaker 2>my word, yeah, quite a story.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my god. Yeah, well that's amazing. Now did she

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<v Speaker 1>she see the Nazis for what they were at the outset?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the fall of the Prussian bureaucracy is widely known,

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<v Speaker 1>which is what gave rise to the fascist movement. Was

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<v Speaker 1>she aware of the evil that they represented early on?

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<v Speaker 1>Or di did she become aware of it as they

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<v Speaker 1>began to increase their power and ultimately get Adolf Hitler elected.

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<v Speaker 2>A bit of the latter. The difference between her and

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<v Speaker 2>her husband is that she saw the evil, as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>she saw what they were doing. She knew what was

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<v Speaker 2>going to happen eventually, where as her husband only wanted

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<v Speaker 2>things to go back to.

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<v Speaker 1>The way they were.

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<v Speaker 2>He wanted to have you know, the Kaiser and all

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<v Speaker 2>the nobility in and he thought, well, gee, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm against them only for that reason. So he was

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<v Speaker 2>rather lackadaisical in what he did. But she, as you said,

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<v Speaker 2>knew they were evil, knew what was coming, and was

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<v Speaker 2>against them from the beginning.

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<v Speaker 1>Well did she see the rise of the Italian fascists

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<v Speaker 1>as connected with this whole problem and recognize them also

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<v Speaker 1>for what they were doing? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, In fact, not only did she see it, she

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<v Speaker 2>wrote about it, and I've got that never before published

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<v Speaker 2>things in this book. But the reason she did that

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<v Speaker 2>was because she was in Albania helping her husband's cousin, Geraldine,

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<v Speaker 2>the young Queen of Albania, when she had her had

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<v Speaker 2>a birth. The Fascist were coming in just at that

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<v Speaker 2>moment to overtake Albania, so they threw Queen Geraldine, having

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<v Speaker 2>had a Sceirian birth the day before, threw her into

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<v Speaker 2>the back seat of a car and got out just

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<v Speaker 2>as the Fascist were landing in Albania. And as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>Muriel was there, saw at firsthand, and as they said,

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<v Speaker 2>even wrote about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Fascinating. Now, what drove her altruism? You grew up really

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<v Speaker 1>really wealthy in the Gilded Age, as you kind of suggested,

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<v Speaker 1>It's really unlikely that you would be so altruistic, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, sacrificial and willing to help out people rather

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<v Speaker 1>than just go about your merry way and enjoy the

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<v Speaker 1>fruits and luxuries of being one of the wealthy and

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<v Speaker 1>the Gilded Age when there was so much poverty around.

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<v Speaker 1>Influenced by what or she just was just a sort

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<v Speaker 1>of an odd bird as we look at things, you know, objectively.

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<v Speaker 2>I think she was a bit of both. Her father,

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<v Speaker 2>as I said earlier, it's a great, great ambassador, but

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<v Speaker 2>he was one of the five US signatories to the

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<v Speaker 2>Verisy Peace Treaty ending World War One, and so she

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<v Speaker 2>grew up with his influence. She also grew up with

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<v Speaker 2>a father who had been very wealthy, and on the

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<v Speaker 2>family's estate, they took care of their families, all of

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<v Speaker 2>the people who worked for them. So she grew up

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<v Speaker 2>with that as the ideal, and she continued to do it. Descendants, actually,

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<v Speaker 2>if her servants family still talked about the Christmas day

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<v Speaker 2>when all of the families and all of the children

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<v Speaker 2>would be brought into the castle, have a huge breakfast,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and then gifts everywhere, and so there are

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<v Speaker 2>people who still talk about that because of her kindness.

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<v Speaker 2>She really was unusual for a time.

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<v Speaker 1>How about that now, I presume that throughout the entire

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<v Speaker 1>the Nazi regime there was some form of underground resistance.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean many movies about that. You had the French

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<v Speaker 1>underground resistance and all that kind of thing. Was she

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<v Speaker 1>a part of some underground organized anti Nazi group or

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<v Speaker 1>did she just sort of do what she was to

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<v Speaker 1>do independently.

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<v Speaker 2>She did it independently. There was one exception though, in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty six, when the Nazi Olympics happened in Berlin.

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<v Speaker 2>She and her husband were invited to one of the

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<v Speaker 2>viewing boxes at the Olympics, and Hitler came and actually

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<v Speaker 2>sat in their box. She said to him, I know

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<v Speaker 2>who you are and what you're planning to do, and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to do everything to stop you. He threw

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<v Speaker 2>his head back and laughed and said, oh, Madam, don't

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<v Speaker 2>be so serious. The same time they were that couple,

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<v Speaker 2>they were meeting with other officers who were opposed to

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<v Speaker 2>Hitler to try to find out ways to ways to

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<v Speaker 2>oppose him. So they were part of that. But as

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<v Speaker 2>I said earlier, it was a difference in many just

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<v Speaker 2>wanting to go back to the old ways where Muriel

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<v Speaker 2>knew of this evil and wanted to stop it. Now.

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<v Speaker 1>Did she help the Jewish community anyway? Obviously, could Kaitler

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<v Speaker 1>project very clear messages regarding his feelings about and what

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<v Speaker 1>he was planning on doing what the Jewish population, rounding

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<v Speaker 1>them up and putting them in slums and ultimately endeavoring

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<v Speaker 1>to exterminate them. What was her connection, if any, to

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<v Speaker 1>the Jews in the Greater German region.

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<v Speaker 2>She was absolutely responsible for saving a Jewish family, the Letterers.

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<v Speaker 2>He had been one of the court tailors.

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<v Speaker 3>And when war was coming, when the Jews were being

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<v Speaker 3>pushed out, he wrote to many of his clients, very

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<v Speaker 3>very well well placed clients, saying, would you invite me

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<v Speaker 3>in my family into your country so we can get out.

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<v Speaker 3>No one would respond to him because they said that,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, they didn't want to help a Jewish family,

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<v Speaker 3>but Muriel did. She was able to get the money

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<v Speaker 3>for them, She was able to arrange their visas, able

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<v Speaker 3>to get them to England to get onto a ship.

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<v Speaker 3>They eventually resettled in Australia, and they were always grateful

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<v Speaker 3>to her because she was able to do that, not

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<v Speaker 3>only for the money to move, but also because once

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<v Speaker 3>they got there Australia didn't, of course want them to

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<v Speaker 3>become wards of the state, so it required them to

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<v Speaker 3>have a certain amount of money to start life. And

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<v Speaker 3>so she arranged.

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<v Speaker 2>All of that. The letter of family got all the

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<v Speaker 2>way to Australia, and we're very happy there.

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<v Speaker 1>Was her father still alive when she threw herself to

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<v Speaker 1>her own death.

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<v Speaker 2>Now her father had died in the twenties. After her

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<v Speaker 2>mother died, her father remarried to one of come of

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<v Speaker 2>Vanderbilt's granddaughters, and who was very helpful with money, because

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<v Speaker 2>these heiresses had their funds cut off by the US Congress.

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<v Speaker 2>The Congress said, look, if you're going to marry into

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<v Speaker 2>a family that's going to fight your country, we're not

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<v Speaker 2>going to let you have access to this money. So fortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>using diplomatic pouches and all that sort of thing, she

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<v Speaker 2>was able to get money from her stepmother and to

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<v Speaker 2>be able to use that as well.

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<v Speaker 1>She was able to keep her sons from being constricted

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<v Speaker 1>in the Hitler's army. What became of her children.

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<v Speaker 2>Great question of Four months after her death, her eldest

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<v Speaker 2>son was in the United States. He went through basic

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<v Speaker 2>training at Camp Wheeler and Macon, Georgia, took the oath

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<v Speaker 2>of office, renounced his citizenship back in Silesia in Germany,

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<v Speaker 2>and went back as a US officer. However, they would

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<v Speaker 2>only let him go to London because they knew someone

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<v Speaker 2>who looked as Arryan as he did with a double

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<v Speaker 2>barreled German name would be recognized, so they changed. They

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<v Speaker 2>changed his name only because they knew that that would be,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, a mark for somewhat somebody to come across

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<v Speaker 2>that name. But he went, as I said, back to

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<v Speaker 2>England and he questioned imprisoned Germans to get information from them.

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<v Speaker 2>You can imagine some of them who recognized him were

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<v Speaker 2>rather cruel and mean about it, but that's okay. He

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<v Speaker 2>did his job and in his mind he was able

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<v Speaker 2>to avenge his mother's death in that way.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, this is an amazing story. Countess and the Nazis

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<v Speaker 1>by my guest today, Richard J. Huddo, who is an

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<v Speaker 1>expert on the Gilded Age and quite quite a few

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<v Speaker 1>books on it. You can teck them out online and

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<v Speaker 1>maybe get a copy of some of his other books.

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<v Speaker 1>But also the Countess of the Nazis. We've rick. We

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<v Speaker 1>put your book on my blog page of fifty five

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<v Speaker 1>cars dot com. So my listeners can easily obtain a

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<v Speaker 1>copy of it, which I'm sure they're going to want

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<v Speaker 1>to do. It's Countess in the Nazis An American Families

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<v Speaker 1>Private War. Fascinating conversation, Rick, I really appreciate you spending

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<v Speaker 1>time with my listeners of me today, and thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>putting us down a paper. You got a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the material I understand from never before published memoirs as

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<v Speaker 1>well as declassified CIA documents. Real quick, How long ago

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<v Speaker 1>were these documents declassified? I always find it fascinating that

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<v Speaker 1>documents remain classified for literally decades and decades beyond the

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<v Speaker 1>period of time that they relate to, for reasons wholly

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<v Speaker 1>unknown to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in this case, they were from two thousand and seven.

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<v Speaker 2>I was when they were declassified, but most people had

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<v Speaker 2>not gone through them. They relate to the invasion of Albania,

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that she was there, and then what happened

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<v Speaker 2>afterwards when the United States tried to put King Zog

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<v Speaker 2>back on the throne. He was sort of the worst

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<v Speaker 2>of our rather the best of some bad choices. And

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<v Speaker 2>so that's where those documents came from. And as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>they were declassified in two thousand and seven.

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<v Speaker 1>Got to do your research. I come up with a

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<v Speaker 1>book like this, and thanks for doing it. Rick, it's

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<v Speaker 1>been a real pleasure having you on the program.