Speaker 1: What is up, mellosiccos we have a disappointing podcast to
record today.
Speaker 2: I damn Valley. I'm joined by my certified.
Speaker 1: Fantabulous co host mister dran Luis.
Speaker 2: We have apologies Maya Kulpas to announce the droves at
this point. We were wrong, and honestly, I'm not sorry.
Are you sorry? Grant?
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. We have to admit we were wrong. That's
about as far as it goes. But we were wrong
in many, many ways, and we're gonna account for that today.
Speaker 1: Would anyone listen to a podcast in which we just
we were right and suck it or something like?
Speaker 2: We should do episode like that and see if anyone
enjoys it.
Speaker 1: The way we're gonna approach this though, so we're gonna
go through some of our more like specific preseason predictions
and okay, we missed on this, but we're gonna look
at teams that we missed on in general first relative
to just like their overall performance. It's not based on
who outperformed, they're over under the most. However, we will
get to that at the end of the episode. We
will also be announcing the winner of the Hardwood Knocks
over under competition who gets a merch item of their choice,
and two will get to be a guest host for
a guests a player where they will read grant and
eye the clues and we will try to collabor We
haven't collaborated on a guest a player ever, so that
might be a disaster.
Speaker 3: But I think we're going to be unbeatable if I'm honest.
That's what I think.
Speaker 1: Your confidence is just it's so admirable. But yeah, how
are you how are you feeling just before we before
we dive into this, knowing that you had to go
through your body of work, out catalog of work, how
are you actually feeling about your level of hits versus
missus this year?
Speaker 3: I mean really there, So I will say that going
back and looking for predictions or just like takes from
mostly mostly like the September October range, like just near
like late preseason, there's a lot of misses. Fortunately, I
think actually, you know, I don't know we can commiserate
on some of this because we were in similar ways
on a lot of these. But there are also some
gems in there that I felt good about that we
like correctly called, you know, some some Portland stuff. We're
gonna miss that over under obviously, but like, just as
an example, and I think we even said we did
say on the pod, like, hey, are they actually sneaky?
Like really good or at least you know, good good
bad or bad good or whatever whatever term you prefer.
So there are there are instances or there were looking
back at this where I was like, all right, I
wasn't you know, I wasn't out of my mind entirely,
Like there's some there's some good calls, but we are
not here to talk about those unless we really shoehorn
them in. And I will say like this, I don't
know what. Tell me if you felt this too. As
I was looking back and seeing, Okay, well that's wrong,
We're gonna have to include that in the discussion, I
still am like, yeah.
Speaker 4: But the logic was pretty good.
Speaker 3: Like I still am like I think I could talk
myself into that again, like or like I still kind
of feel that way. Say about the Clippers, like all
my doubts are a lot of them are still there
as we go to the playoffs, and they're part of it.
Speaker 1: How do you when I think the teams were gonna
start with are just sort of the obvious ones to
where it's okay, like if they were I don't know,
do I do you feel worse?
Speaker 2: Let me frame it this way.
Speaker 1: Do you feel worse if you just missed on a
team like the Clippers where they were just so much
better than you expected, or a team like Philly where
there their season was ruined by injury but then you
kind of look up, Well that was on the table.
Speaker 2: Did I just not consider that? I'd say, ditto with
the Pelicans.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do I feel worse.
Speaker 1: I think it's of this show is to make you
feel bad, But which one makes you feel more bad?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: I think?
Speaker 3: I think the Clippers as an example, that feels to
me like a bigger miss than to use the Sixers
as the as the foil, because even though like catastrophe
sort of was priced in for the Sixers, I think
we went in like eyes open, acknowledging that, and whereas
the Clippers, it's just like they just got surprisingly good
performances that I didn't see coming from a lot of players,
and like the whole felt like more than the sum
of the parts, and all that was like just the
evaluation was worse on the Clippers, whereas with the sixers.
It's just like, yeah, everybody embiid got hurt, and like
that was always on the table. We just didn't think
that that was gonna be as big of an I
don't know. Somehow the Clippers thing feels like a bigger miss.
Speaker 1: We begin with the Chicago Bulls, and so I have
their difference in their what they're on pace to exceed
or miss their win totals by I'll start with the Bulls.
They're they're going to outperform. They're over under differential by
ten and a half wins. When I was doing my
own personal win projections, I had them at twenty one.
This is probably one. They've been more fun. They play fast,
they shoot a lot of threes, modest. Buzzellis has exceed
in my expectations as a rookie. They did trade zach Lavine,
but I definitely missed in the sense of expecting that,
Like I guess, I really believe that a team that
has never torn it down when they should was going
to tear it down early enough that they would just
be absolutely awful. And so in hindsight, as for them
to be one of the teams that I ripped wins
away from is kind of like that just feels a
little ignorant on my part.
Speaker 3: Now, I mean this is a good example, though, Well
there's just competing concerns, like, yeah, you shouldn't have, in hindsight,
shouldn't have assumed that management would do the right thing,
which is to say, like lose a whole bunch or
like put a roster out there that's designed. I mean
they did trade Levine, I mean that's part of it.
But like Vucevic played way better than I think either
of us expected. Kobe Wyatt about it, I mean we
both like him, but yeah, like it's easy to look
at this and be like, why didn't I just expect
that they'd find a way to win, you know, somewhere
between thirty seven and forty one games, Like why was
that not my pick?
Speaker 1: The next team that kind of falls into this bucket,
So the Calves, who we were both high on, but
they're going to outperform.
Speaker 2: There over under.
Speaker 1: By sixteen and a half way, we had them pretty
comfortably in the top three of the East. But that
meant like fifty two wins. They've now have an historic
point differential I think some people have, and you can
make the argument that they should be the favorites to
come out of.
Speaker 2: The Eastern Conference.
Speaker 1: I don't view this as a capslock mix. This is
why they're kind of an honorable mention. But this is
just I don't know who even if you thought the
Caps were a title contender, no one was predicting like
this is their one hundred and first percentile outcomes.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, this is one too where I mean, it
was overwhelmingly common to see people picking the over right,
Like everybody was like forty and a half, Like why
aren't they winning fifty? And the reason they aren't winning
fifty is because they're winning sixty five or whatever it is. Yeah,
it was very easy to be optimistic about them just because, well,
Garland will not have a jaw in multiple pieces, Mobily
should be better, Kenny Atkinson will get the offense going.
Like it's just this is an you said one hundred
first percent as this is an extreme version of the
best case scenario.
Speaker 1: The next team that kind of falls in honorable mentions
the Mavericks. We both believe they were gonna win more
than fifty games.
Speaker 2: They're not going to right now.
Speaker 1: They're gonna end up missing by double digits on their
over under this, I don't I we probably.
Speaker 2: I guess you could have predicted this team dealing with
injury issues.
Speaker 1: But I'm not gonna take responsibility for Nico Harrison and
Patrick Dumont losing their minds. That's not Don't you put
that evil on me, Ricky Bobbies. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 3: And also you got the little whiff of like Luca's
in great shape preseason, and that turned out to not
be true at all. But even if that trade had
not happened, like him missing quite so much time, I
don't think was something we really priced in. And then
just the way the MAVs closed last year is like, well, yeah,
of course the era, Like that's how good they'll be
for the full season. Now they'll be a fifty plus
win team just indefinitely. And I mean, yeah, the Harrison
thing in the Luca trade gives us some cover, but
like this was this was headed below that over under
you know before that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's a good point.
Speaker 1: This team we both went under, I mean over on
forty five and a half. With the Pelicans, there's been
tanking shenanigans, like they've leaned into it, but they're gonna
miss by about twenty three and a half wins off
there over under. This is just can you are they
entering the territory level? I just can't bet they're under
ever again because of and why were we even doing.
Speaker 2: It in the first place.
Speaker 1: You mean they're over like they're over excuse me when
their wagon is hitched to Zion. That's not what we
both think the world of peaks Ion. It's just how
many games of peaks Ion do you get per year
at this rate?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I I you know, hard to find excuses, like
even if you say, well, everybody else got hurt, like
Murray down like out for the year, Trey Murphy starts her,
it ends her. Herb Jones gets hurt pretty early on
with that shoulder. I mean even then, it's like you
just shouldn't You shouldn't assume Zion's gonna play fifty games
like that's just that should be the default forever.
Speaker 1: I'll take ownership like I couldn't have predicted the de
Jontay Murray injury. And I loved that trade for them
at the time. I don't know if I was expecting
them to move brandon Ingram sooner. It ended up being
Remember we were harping on their center position like E's
mecI turned out to be just fine by the end
of the year, him and Zion learning to play together.
That number at forty five and a half, I must
have did I like convince you were hoodwink into you
picking me over Ford, because that's just not a number
that Yeah, let me, I'm gonna double check for you
to make sure that you had the over for that.
Speaker 2: I know that over I might.
Speaker 3: Have gone under. In my heart, I feel like I
should have gone under.
Speaker 2: And even if you didn't in your heart, no, you
went over.
Speaker 1: Grand Okay, so uh that's a miss on your I
just in retrospect, like that's one, okay, Like we saw
what the Pelicans can look like at their peak, but
we've now have years worth of evidence that they're never
gonna have enough bodies to.
Speaker 2: Operate at their peak.
Speaker 1: So ill that one's a bad one. This one our
final kind of honorable men. Oh no, we have two more, Orlando.
We both went over at forty seven and a half half.
I don't make any apologies for this one specifically, just
because I mean, I guess, eyes wide open, we knew
that they didn't do anything to really juice the offense
over the offseason. But they probably clear this over under
if all of their best players don't end up missing
what like at least half the season or more with injury.
Speaker 3: Well, and I mean we were too high on kcp's
potential impact, I think. But yeah, this is just I'm
fine with this because this is just like you said it,
like Franz or who Polo got hurt like five games
in right, and then Franz goes down, and then Suggs
is down and then back and then down and it's
just out for the year, like getting injured. Yeah, yeah,
I don't know. I don't know what else what else
to say other than like, I mean, wouldn't you presumably
if those three guys are, you know, play reasonably expected
amount of games, they're they're gonna hit that over anyway.
It's it really could just be the injuries.
Speaker 1: Well, didn't it feel like there's a vacuum kind of
for who's the third best team in the East? Had
they aid healthy, you never would have trusted their offense
at full strength unless they made a move.
Speaker 2: They could have been it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, they could have been in that mix for sure, Like, yeah,
fully healthy, they're in there with your New York's and
indies and Milwaukee's I guess in Detroit like they're in
that mix for sure.
Speaker 1: This one not as easy to defend, I think because
a lot of people in the competition went under knowing like, Okay.
Speaker 2: We're gonna you know, one of my predictions was.
Speaker 1: That the Big Three is gonna play at least one thousand.
That's at least, I said, Grant, do you want to
know how many minutes the Big Three ended up playing
together this season?
Speaker 3: Is it even triple digits?
Speaker 1: It's two hundred and ninety four minutes. So I was
twenty nine point four percent of the way to being correct.
Speaker 3: Pretty good.
Speaker 1: This is just you could say that they weren't gonna
end up being one of the worst teams in the
league in tanking to keep their draft pick, and you
still reasonably could have said, hey, they're not going to
hit the under here because I mean the over here,
because they're going to conserve Joel Embiid and Paul George
has never been like sort of this billboard for durability.
Speaker 2: And so you did go to be fair.
Speaker 1: You did go Your actual win projection, of course, was
further away, but.
Speaker 2: You went under for the Sixers.
Speaker 1: I believe I went over, So that's a that's a
bigger stain for me.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I went under as well.
Speaker 1: It's just I had them winning fifty one games and
so like that's just a huge miss. So we didn't
trust they're over under to be fair, But so I'm
glad that we didn't.
Speaker 2: I didn't put the over.
Speaker 1: I'm kind of looking at this though and going should
we have been more open to the the worst worst
case scenario kind of actualizing Well.
Speaker 3: If I think so, except like Embiid did play for
Team USA, and and we covered a lot of those games,
and he was like mostly real bad, right, and so
it's like what inSpot what it's Well, I think it
was more than he Okay, he played like Okay, he's
gonna start the season like surely he'll you know, rest
after the Olympics and then he'll he'll look better as
opposed to like, no, he's gonna look the same and
then worse and then be done like that. I guess
it's a little it's not quite Zion level, but it's
it's like, at this stage, we should have given a
little more weight to like the sheer disaster potential. I
mean we went under, but like I think this is
the this is the negative first percentile outcome for the Sixers,
like to compare it to the Cavs one hundred and
first percentile, Like, this is as bad as it could go.
And we should have viewed that as more likely than
we did. I think.
Speaker 1: And our off season grade for the mine was probably
like an A plus plus plus, right think for sure,
said Daryl, And I'm sure mine was too. That Daryl
Morey was your preseason Executive of the Year pick. So
you talk about a season coming off the rails, they
are so fascinating, talk about draft lottery stakes. That's going
to be interesting to see what happens there. Now we're
kind of getting into the okay, like this is the
stuff that really deserves like some more discussion. The Detroit
Pistons on pace to outperform there over under by nearly
twenty victories. I need to take ownership of this, Like
when you look at the actual wind projections, Okay, we
were off, neither was having them winning close to forty
five games. You did pick their over They were one
of the teams that I ripped the under out from.
This is just you name anything about it, Like it's
if you would have even told me that Jay and
Ivy was gonna miss so much time, maybe I would
have felt like even more confident in my prediction. But
just everything from and it's not even the Kig Cunningham.
I think I've received some criticism for not having him
as my motion improved player. I think I was just
high enough on Cake Cunningham coming into this season, and
so some of the defensive improvements, the scoring improvements for sure,
like the way he's driving transition offense better than ever.
Like I think I underestimated. Okay, you put spacing around
Kke Cunningham and this team might just be like I
spent too much time probably lampooting them for the Tim
Hardaway Junior or Quentin Grimes trade when I should have
kind of looked at it and said, like, there's real
flour balance here in the half court that matters.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a few is there.
Speaker 3: I mean we should spend some time on them, because
they're gonna like three x their win total from last year,
pretty close to it. I think, like, so I did
go over, but I I did look back, and so
I had a piece about like giving last year's lottery teams, like,
what are their chances of making the playoffs in twenty
four to twenty five? And I had the Pistons below,
So I thought it was more likely that the following
teams would make the playoffs than Detroit, Utah not looking good, Charlotte, Toronto,
the Spurs, Houston, Memphis. So there's some decent ones in there,
but some real bad ones. And I have a quote
I'm gonna quote myself from like September. The Pistons could
win twice as many games as they did a year
ago and still come nowhere near the play in tournament.
I did not consider winning three times as many games.
That's important framing to keep in mind, as we acknowledged,
Detroit probably will be a ton better than it was
in twenty three twenty four. So I had it all there.
I was like, they'll be better, they're not making the
play in, so just really covering the bases of right
and wrong. I mean, I think even I think you're
not wrong in hindsight to have looked at like, okay,
they put shooting around Cade, but like Hardaway and Beasley
are just gonna be like defensive sieves. So you you
like balance that out by playing a star Thompson and
Ron holland Moore, and it's like, well, those guys are imperfect,
so you're really just gonna have a bunch of like
one way dudes around Caid and they'll win more games,
but they won't be good. And that was just that
was wrong. They're putting shooting around Caid. Sort of solved
it and Caid got better and and really I know
for a fact I didn't think JB. Bickerstaff was gonna
coax the level of defense that he did out of
this group that was that might be as the biggest
miss of all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's like you could cite whatever gate you want.
Or so they're first since this top five, since this
their tenth in points a lot per possession on the season.
I think you look at the personnel, especially when how
I know we feel about Jayleen Duran as your base protector,
like this stuff on the perimeter, there's been like a
ton more flashes they are but to be tented while
also winnowing down Isaiah Stewart's role compared to last year
pretty much.
Speaker 2: So that's just like just the heck of a job
by the Pistons.
Speaker 1: And they become I think they now the hard part begains,
Like they're gonna get to the playoffs.
Speaker 2: That'll be fun to see.
Speaker 1: Like if they're gonna play the Knicks in the first round,
I don't know that, Like the Knicks aren't a team
that if I'm any other team, and like they're not
scaring you.
Speaker 2: So we'll see how they do.
Speaker 1: I'm very curious to see, like what steps forward or
what steps they'd make over the offseason. How are aggressive?
Were they gonna be versus how reserved? Because one of
the most damaging things you could do is read too
much into success. But when you have, you know, some
guys like Jane n Ivy's extension eligible, Malik Beasley and
Tomorroway Junior are gonna be free agents, Like there are
some just decisions that they have to make. And they're
also not going to have a first round draft pick,
which is like good, Like they were so good it's
conveying to Minnesota. Next team you want to take us
through them, mister Hughes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is the Blazers again, a team we
kind of talked up. But also so they're over under
was twenty one and a half. They're gonna win in
the mid thirties. Currently on pace for thirty six, so
that's a difference of like fourteen and a half wins.
Speaker 2: This was.
Speaker 3: It's hard because, like I do think we from the jump,
like you've been in on Kamara since like he was
a Phoenix sun for like five seconds, and we loved
Danny Avdia. I think we were both pretty skeptical of Clinging,
maybe you more so than me, and like Scoot was
who knows. I think we were both kind of traumatized
from being so high on him and him looking so
bad as a rookie. And then I think a lot
of this, a lot of what skepticism there was was
really rooted in like the young guys are still young
and not helpful, like Scoot Sharp whatever Klingon probably won't
be good. And then the older guys like Jeremy Grant
Simons are like, well they'll just trade those guys, so
like so that's how you get a win total, you know,
well below thirty something, which is what they're going to
hit at the same time we did. We did sort
of like at the last minute. I remember this being
late in the preseason, kind of going like, hey, are
the poor.
Speaker 4: Are the Blazers actually kind of good?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 4: Is there something there?
Speaker 3: So a little credit there? But this was a pretty
big miss.
Speaker 1: I did have them as having an above average defense
and that to take that aged quite well. But I
also said, and you kind of alluded to this, why
would you ever have drafted Donovan Kling in that high
I was like Zach EDI's the better pick, and I
even wouldn't have selected him there.
Speaker 2: I was wrong about clinging like there's.
Speaker 1: Some offensive issues to hammer out, but I think that's
more about the spacing environment. I don't I even to
his I don't really understand what Portland's guiding offensive principles
are at this point, Like they don't have a hallmark
identify or that I would want to project forward as
that team. I find the Chauncey billups of it all fascinating,
like what are they Are they going to give him
an extension like they did with GM Joe Cronin. But
like the base of that, the Denny Avia trade I
think is, even with the slow start, has panned out
way better than ever. The stuff you quibble over, should
they have moved some of these guys earlier? Should they
have just taken a bath and gotten rid of Jeremy
Grant at the deadline. I don't know, but for people
who I guess are and like, I understand the feeling
because it's they're in this weird space where they still
I don't think you can point to anyone on this
team and guarantee that they're just gonna be the face
of because Denny Avi is great, he's not good enough
to be that guy. Henderson or Shaydon Sharp still feel
like they have the best chance of doing it. But
the improvement you've seen from Scoot this year, like you
don't get to sit there and say that he's air
tight like that. So it's it's still this bizarre space.
But I actually don't have a problem that they weren't
one of the most flagrant tankers this year because the
defensive success and some the brighter moments, the wins that
they cobbled together, it was driven predominantly by guys who
matter to their future. It's not like over the lineup
was Jeremy Grant, Denny Avvia DeAndre Ayton. They went double
big with Robert Williams a third or something. It was like, no,
like the young guys, the big picture guys played a
huge part in what the Blazers have done this year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll be fascinated to see what they're like twenty five,
twenty six over under gets said at and like what
the sort of vibe is on Portland because you could
see them being a team that everybody's like, like they're
the here they come kind of team. I could see
that being the narrative going into next year. Aren't you
know what? I might buy it?
Speaker 2: I might buy it?
Speaker 1: But is also does that have to do with a
dearth of optionality? Because who's the who's the other option?
Speaker 3: You know, there's gonna be some that emmerger like or
let everybody's gonna be like, oh, watch for the Orlando
bounce back. That that'd be a good pot we should
we should like try to pre call the preseason narratives.
Maybe maybe like not right now, but at some point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a book market.
Speaker 1: I guess the Spurs would fall into that category then too,
like following the they were there this year, but then
when we get shut down they trade for Fox, So yeah,
good point there our next.
Speaker 2: All right, we missed on this team.
Speaker 1: So the Rockets I had their under when they were
at forty one and a half. I believe I just
thought that the offense was not gonna do enough to
or they were at forty three and a half. Excuse me,
and I had them at forty three wins. I thought
they were gonna be better. I liked pretty much everyone
on their roster. I was never a jail and green guy,
and I just didn't think the offense was gonna have
enough pizazz to hang.
Speaker 2: Tight in the Western Conference.
Speaker 1: I mean, they might just be the second best team
in the West, and the closure they're closer.
Speaker 2: To fifty five wins than they are to forty three.
Speaker 1: So like this is just you talk about a team
that I really think announced was ahead of schedule. It
was them, And in a way it puts more pressure
on them because they have all these moving parts of extensions.
Speaker 2: They've paid some guys, they have assets.
Speaker 1: Should they go out and get Superstar X or Superstar Wide?
Speaker 2: Do they let this marinate?
Speaker 1: The stakes are high for them in the playoffs in
a good way, because I think it informs a lot
of what they'll do over the offseason. But I never
if you would have given me a range and said
are they more likely to miss if us me if
they are they more likely to miss the plan or
finish with a top three seed in the West. I
would have picked that they would have missed a plan.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're a good example of you know,
it's really easy to fixate, especially with a young team,
on like what they can't do or what we don't
think they're going to be able to do well, which
like which was basically offense, and that's kind of still true, right, Like,
if there is an issue with the Rockets, it's definitely
late game offense in particular, and just like like how
are they going to create reliably good shots? Like that's
still a thing. But like if you do that or
if you stay too much with within that mindset, what
you overlook is like, okay, but what might they be
great at? And it's like, well, they have a ton
of like really interesting defensive personnel. Maybe they'll just be
a top five defense or like and now, and so
you can be a middling offense and you're gonna win
a lot of games that way. Like so I think
I think it was just that fact that was a miscalculation.
And also I definitely spend a lot of time kind
of harping on there they're so they've got such a runway,
like this is a fact finding season. They got to
figure out, like which combos of all their young guys
work well together, like Jabari Smith and Okay Thompson, how
does that look? And like can Thompson play with with
Cam Whitmore, And like where does Shepherd fit into all that?
We could talk about him now or later if you want,
but like it it some So I still like I
understand why we weren't high enough on them because some
of the things that we talked about like are still
actually issues. I think we just missed on like what
this team could actually be extremely good at and like
how much that would matter and offset some of the
questions and weaknesses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the I would assume that no one,
even like Rockets fans, weren't having them contending for second
in the West this year. I actually think the bigger
miss would be if they fare so well in the
playoffs with excuse me, oh, I mean, like let's say
Albert Shangun and the Steven Adam lineup which has been
destroying worlds. Oh, you play that in the playoffs and
it's we're gonna win with transition defense. Second chance opportunities
and just enough kind of creation from Shang Gun and
van Fleet and Jail and Green. The bigger miss would
be they make a conference finals round and don't need
to make that consolidation trade that we're saying, No, you
don't need to give up everything, but you need like
a creator or a floor spacer on this team. And
if you're not where, there's gonna be more rocket stuff
a little bit later, so stay tuned for that. But
if it's not gonna be Read Shepherd, if you're not
gonna because it almost makes it harder to like invest
in the development of Read Shepherd if you're already this
good because you don't have the stomach for the growing
pains as much, that'll end up being the bigger miss.
But I like hot tip to them for being this
far ahead of schedule.
Speaker 3: Don't before we move on. Don't you think though, that
the like consensus on them as a playoff team is
still like pretty broad skepticism. Like I that's just the
feeling I get. Is like not not in the sense
of like everybody's hoping, nobody's afraid of the rockets. It's like, no,
they have some like structural stuff that like I think
it's fair to be concerned about playoff wise, but we
we've we've been real wrong about the Rockets, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for sure they're kind of just like
I mean, Memphis still has that skepticism, but they're sure
to Memphis and where it's they do a lot of this.
They do it differently, have different personnel, but like their
core flaw half court offense, spacing in the half court,
they're the same.
Speaker 2: And that I do feel like.
Speaker 1: Those are the the functional foibles that we might glom
onto ahead of the post, like for a lot of
teams if that's where they're at. So I think that
just and then also there's I know you and I
don't necessarily subscribe too much value or like too much
like brain power to this, but they haven't done it yet,
Like like Fred van Fleet championship guy. They do have
Jeff Green on the bench here, but it's what do
these younger guys look like in a postseason setting? And
that's I think. Yeah, curiosity, for sure, I think is fair.
But look, with the way this team is treading, maybe
they just make a conference finals ride and we're just
sitting here.
Speaker 3: Like all right, like wrong again, who do we have
up next. This is the Clippers. This I know, for
me was just in a good way, I guess, because
it's always better to be pleasantly surprised. I just didn't
in a million years, I didn't think, one, you have
the Kawhi health stuff, right, which really was like for
a lot of the year as expected, where he missed
time and didn't look like himself for I mean the
majority of this season, I was hyper skeptical that an
offense with like James Harden and then like some guys
that are just you know, like other than Norm Powell,
which this is very much related, like where's the offense
coming from? I just didn't trust you Harden to be
like a high use, high leverage like usage high leverage
on ball driver of offense. And honestly, like even he
wasn't great at that, it was just like he.
Speaker 4: Was good enough.
Speaker 3: And then the defense, which so the Powell leap unforeseeable
like just a crazy like mid career jump. And then
Zubats didn't give Zubots enough credit as like, all right,
this guy's one of the best defensive players in the league,
full stop, and he can be part of an awesome
defense if you surround him with Chris Dunn and like
these other un heralded defensive type guys did not see
anything close to this from them.
Speaker 1: I think pretty much everything they've done it's just what
I said, like Ben Simmons, like to Ben Simmons as.
Speaker 2: You're big, basically like, oh, those are just working.
Speaker 1: So there's just like nothing they've tried, and we harped
a lot on Ah, you just let Paul George leave
for nothing, and like even that looks like it aged
well for them. They go and it's well, they can't
really do anything at the trade deadline. They're limited in
assets and how much do you want to commit to
this team? And it's, oh no, you finagle the way
to get bo Dun Bogdonovitch, who is having a renaissance.
Speaker 2: And I'm like, both inside and beyond the arc, there's
the Kawhi Leonard of it all.
Speaker 1: You can't trust that he will be healthy when it matters.
But at the same time, you look at the numbers
when him and James Harden and Zubats and power on
the court together and they're.
Speaker 2: Just they're frying teams.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it makes me wonder if Kauhi is healthy
this is absolutely a team they could make the conference finals,
like there would they be a team if if they're
fully healthy, Like, could you see them giving okayc like
being one of the better matchups for okay See. Just
given the way their their defensive versatility in particular, makes
me think that they would be one of the tougher
pulls for okay See. Again the caveat and they need
to be at full strength.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just make yeah, I mean Kawhi and like
Harden has seen, you know, more than anyone on Okay
okay See has seen like and Harden's playoff track record
is extremely checkered, but like it just I just feel
like uncomfortable speculating in any way about the Clippers now
because I was so off, Like I just this is
my I don't know if it's my biggest miss over
under if it's I just I was so sure that
the Clippers were gonna be bad that, like, I just
have no sense of this team pretty pretty obviously, yeah,
I think they would be I'm trying to think of
what would be the bigger Maybe the Pistons would be
like just biggest, forget about the numbers of it all.
But coming into the season, my perception of them. I
think the Clippers actually might be my biggest miss of
the year. I think their mine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, our next team up, I will say.
Speaker 1: Going through the over unders on the Phoenix Suns from
our discord from our subscribers, there were very few people
bet or picked excuse me, the Suns under which is
we saw forties. I know you probably thought I saw
forty seven and a half. I'm like, yeah, they're easily
gonna clear that, Like we're just reading too much into
the stuff that happened last season. Things will be ironed out.
Mike Budenholzer is gonna come in and have an impact.
Brian Donne I had him as a first team All
rookie prediction. Not completely insane, but he never like carved
out the role necessary to be in the running for
that they're on pace to win like thirty six, he's
having thirty eight games whatever. I this is just should
we have seen Like should we have.
Speaker 2: Seen this coming?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: Because I didn't.
Speaker 3: Even though that forty seven and a half is like
doesn't As I'm looking at it now, it's like, yeah, yeah,
why wouldn't you go over that? Like that's not a
high number, Like that what is it? You probably before
the season, you're like, what is that? Like seventh in
the West or something, maybe maybe even lower. I have
a quote for that one. It's related unless unless we're
saving it for later. It's it's it's kind of Bodenholzer
specific and just is so wrong that I feel like
I have to lay it out now Here we go,
he meaning coach Bud will get the Suns organized and
optimally deployed on both ends, improving their nights and night performance,
just like he did with Milwaukee and Atlanta before that.
Considering the Suns made talent upgrades, right Tyas Jones?
Speaker 4: Who else did they get?
Speaker 3: They got somebody else that we were like, okay, we've
shored that up. I can't remember. Now they've made talent
upgrades and finished ninth and twelve an offensive defensive efficiency
last year. They could hit the playoffs with a legitimate
championship profile and then cut to like Bud just, I
don't know, Like this team's offense is one of the
least watchable in the league, and I will say it
is not being optimally deployed, so pretty pretty rough and
really like guys have missed time. But that's not the
excuse that that isn't we didn't miss this because of that, Like,
it's really just when even when the Suns were like
close to whole, they just weren't remotely what we thought
they would be on either end of the floor.
Speaker 2: I will also say, yeah, I echo all of that.
I will also.
Speaker 1: Say this is sort of the one where it was
I've never seen people try harder to read into a
four game winning streak so late, and this is like,
have the Suns turned the corner?
Speaker 2: It's like, no, they they they have not, Like what
do we have sixty something plus games of evidence?
Speaker 1: And I think we've talked about the vibes in general
for these Kevin Durant teams as he's been there longer.
I don't think I ever could have predicted them being
this bad. I think we knew that there might be
some toxic Bradley Beal speculation where they want to get
rid of him and he won't wave his no trade clause,
but to the point where they were proactively shopping Durant,
which you typically you compliment teams for, but for them,
it's just sort of, well, what is the endgame here?
If you're shopping Kevin Durant not telling him, and now
that we have to ask because I never even I
would have predicted. I don't know how many things I
would have predicted before this, But would you even guarantee
that everything you just wrote about Mike Budenholzer and now
we can't even guarantee that he'll be in Phoenix next season?
Speaker 3: I feel I know, Yeah, It's that seemed to me
like such low hanging fruit of like, well, you say
what you want about him as a playoff coach, but
like he gets the most out of his teams during
the year, and he gets some high seeds and then
they get upset, and it's like that's it. You have
to question everything about this team all right.
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna get into some of our biggest misses
with more of the specific positions, not just the overall
impressions of the team, although we're gonna begin with overall
impressions of the Brooklyn Nets. From me, I predicted the
Nets will have the NBA's worst record. I don't feel
bad about it because they have a two year window
in which they could tank before they don't control their
own first round picks. Again, I just assumed that even
with the personnel when you have Shreoter, Doring, Finney Smith,
Cam Johnson, Nicholas Claxton. If they were too good, they
would make moves early enough to be bad enough. And
they did make moves early enough, but they were just
too good out the gate. And even after moving Dennis Schreuder,
even after moving Doring Phinney Smith, this team was just
still too competitive. On certain nights it was, oh well,
once the offensive, you know, dynamism is gone. It's like,
we're just gonna become like frenetic defensive team. Not that
they were ever good, and they've tanked enough to where
they have a chance. I think to finish they're gonna
be like what sixth in the lottery order. But for them,
I was just certain that this, you know, people made
a mockery of what the rap have done in the
fourth quarters, with the Jazz have done for a good
part of this season. I just assume that the Nets
were gonna be doing that out the gate, and instead
they're gonna wind up with the sixth or seventh best
lottery odds, which, you know, not the end of the world.
But for them, when you have this two year winter,
which to tech, I just assumed they were gonna be
so brazenly bad and they were not.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of hope they win the lottery because
they like they did everything the process was right, Like
they the second they got that pick back, you have
nothing to apologize for with this take, because like the
talent that was there and the incentives all aligned towards them.
Just be like, why wouldn't they be just as bad
as possible? And like it's a good example of sometimes
like the players on the floor and the coach just
make it so you can only be so bad and
like this is Jordy Fernandez's Coach of the Year case
that we're basically discussing like the reverse side of right now, Yeah,
they they should have been terrible, and they just played
too hard and were like too well coached, and they
tried they traded an intruder in December, like that's you know,
they really did what they needed to do and it
didn't and it didn't matter in a in a good way.
I think, like this is I hope again, I hope
they win the lottery just because they tried to do
it right and they just sort of had too good
of a culture to be abjectly horrible.
Speaker 1: Well, so I guess for me this is an ethical
miss is what you're saying. Yes, But for them, if
you set out to be that bad and you end
up being better than expected, is that a silver lining?
Speaker 2: Or is it okay? Well you weren't you weren't.
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of circa Utah Jazz after trading Donovan
Mitchell and Rudy Gobert.
Speaker 3: It's it's different than the jazz though, and it feels
different than the jazz those two years because like or
does doesn't it? It feels different to me because like
they really did strip down like as much as they could,
and then they like through effort, like couldn't be bad enough,
whereas the jazz just like didn't pull the trigger on
trades quickly enough. And I don't know if that that
feels sort of distinct.
Speaker 1: It's but it feels, doesn't It feel like, I mean,
Utah is still kind of searching for his cornerstone. But
it's the same thing with the nets to where and
they don't necessarily have all those fallback picks.
Speaker 2: That they do have some, but they don't have a ton.
Speaker 1: And it more specifically, the jazz have all their own
and the Brooklyn Nets do not after so if they
win the lottery, it would be kind of like reinforcing. Okay,
like these flattened lottery odds work and something like this happens.
It doesn't torment your long term vision. Yeah, what's your
let's go to let's go to your miss grant.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I basically made the case more than once that
like that. JJ Reddick was like, dude, this is an
impossible position for him, like set set up, like not
purposely set up to fail. But it's like this scenario
where you've never coached before. You are going to the Lakers.
The Lakers should not be very good because Lebron James
and Anthony Davis won't both play seventy plus games. The scrutiny,
the like, the whole thing. It was just like this is, yeah, yeah,
you take the job because there's only thirty of them
and this is the Lakers, Like of course, like you're
gonna say no when they ask you to come coach
this team, like of course not. But I just thought
like it's not not necessarily. I don't know how I
divvy it up, like percentage wise, some percentage of like
I don't know if he's gonna be a good coach
or not because how could you? And the bigger percentage
being like this is an impossible situation. And now we're
we're at the end of the year, and it's like, one,
pretty sure he's a really good coach, Like it certainly
looks that way the way he got this roster to defend.
And then like the lifeline of Okay, Luca's here now,
so it's not just like we're playing out the string
with Lebron and we're beholden to his and Anthony Davis's health.
Now you're beholding to Luca's health and conditioning. But like
that's just a better spot to be in, so dead
wrong about that, And and now like it's just I
just assume the Lakers are going to be well coached
and like make do smart stuff as long as he's there,
which is a total one to eighty from like the
whole like throw your hands up, Like I don't know
what he's going to be able to do.
Speaker 2: Do you think it makes it?
Speaker 1: This is like it's like kind of a pleasure. I
don't like if I think teams are gonna be bad
and they're good. I like accepting we've kind of already
not over. I could accept that, does it make it
like this makes your miss more egregious, but maybe feel
you feel even better about it that this isn't really
about the Luca doctor straight at all, because the Lakers
were and there's still a ton of idols that when
you look at it, it's like, no, like they're not
supposed to be this good.
Speaker 2: And yet at some point when you go.
Speaker 1: Through an eighty something game sample size through all the
stuff that happens, including by the way, I'm gonna bring
this up now, I don't know where to bring it up.
Speaker 2: No one's brought it up.
Speaker 1: Do you remember Lebron was out with his injury, but
then we all of a sudden got the relaunch of
the Mind the Game podcast. I'm not convinced that it
wasn't just about getting rest. There was that he needed to,
you know, start recording those Mind the Game episodes that
they were ready in time for their debut.
Speaker 2: That is my conspiracy theory. Lebron James DNP podcasting.
Speaker 3: That's Paul George's corner, stay off it. No, I like
I I definitely wasn't like I hope it doesn't seem
like I was rooting for Reddick to fail because like
that's a dumb hire. Why like there's better coaches out there.
Why would you just pick the guy that's got a
podcast and sounds admittedly smart on it?
Speaker 2: Like I just was like driving yourself. Why aren't you sure? Exactly?
I was.
Speaker 3: I was almost like I didn't feel bad for him,
but I was like I just felt like nervous about like, man,
I don't know if this was the right decision, Like
what you're walking into is gonna be brutal, And I was.
Speaker 1: Just I remember the the part of the exact conversation
we had was why was just I you were gonna
put like if you wanted to coach, Like, why are
you subjecting yourself to this situation to where if it
goes wrong?
Speaker 2: Do you just not get another coaching opportunity?
Speaker 3: Right? Don't be Steve Nash where it's like everybody thinks
you're real smart, you take the wrong job, and it's
just like you're not gonna coach again, whether you will
or not.
Speaker 2: Steve Nash has his own podcast now though, so he will.
Speaker 3: And so he'll be the Lakers next coach. If if
mind the game is any indication.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this one I know More is gonna troll
me forward. I'm pretty sure you will too. LaMelo Ball
will make an All NBA team. That was me one
week into the season, so it wasn't a preseason take.
So I'm guilty of being super prisoner of the moment, which.
Speaker 2: Is arguably worse.
Speaker 1: Look, even if he doesn't get injured, even if the
rest of the Hornets don't get injured, he's probably not
tracking towards there because one I do think consensus is
too low on what LaMelo could be and what he
was doing before the Hornets fell apart. But like the
defense hasn't gotten any better. Part of the stuff I
was intrigued by was like the drives are more physical.
The room pressure was there that petered out a little bit.
I absolutely consider him a transcendent offensive talent. I will
if I was running a team and he appears on
the chopping block, I would give up a ton to
get him. If I'm the Hornets, I'm not moving him
because I think that once you start to get real
talent in place, he's actually pretty.
Speaker 2: Easy to build a round.
Speaker 1: But implying that he was about to be one of
the fifteen most valuable offensive players, of the twenty four
to twenty five NBA campaign, knowing at fundamentally that he's
just never been available enough to qualify.
Speaker 4: You were that was your biggest mistake?
Speaker 3: Is like, there are a lot of ways to be
wrong about an All NBA prediction.
Speaker 1: Well, I was wrong in almost every which way because
then his efficiency. So if LaMelo Ball played sixty seven
games with his current like, no, he would not have
received enough All NBA votes. So this is a miss.
I wear it sheepishly, but I still think that LaMelo
Ball will make an All NBA team.
Speaker 3: I'm not going to troll you. You got to stick
with your guys. You know you're a LaMelo guy, and
you shouldn't apologize for it. It's not a ridiculous take.
When you double down on it next preseason, I may
I may bring this up and just flag it as
a cautionary note and say you sure you sure you
want to say LaMelo is going to finish third in
MVP this year.
Speaker 1: Or I have him on all defense. Your next miss.
Speaker 2: I think this is.
Speaker 1: One that everyone who listens to this podcast could have
predicted from you.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, you could have predicted that I was wrong
about it, that this would have right or wrong that
this would have been your preseason. It was so easy
Dan to find examples of like of outlandishly positive things
I said or wrote about Kaminga, just like he kept
popping up in every different iteration of preseason thing. The
one I'm like kind of going with is that he
can become the Warriors second star because looking at you know,
they this feels like a thousand years ago now, but
it was like, Wow, they put together this deep roster
they've got, you know they could and they did play
like twelve thirteen guys to start the season. What they
don't have is someone that can just draw defensive attention,
create shots, score whatever other than Steph And it's like, well,
he's gonna be the guy, Like I think I think
he has that in him. I picked him as a
breakout candidate alongside guys like you know Wemby, Trey Murphy
the third pat on the back for that one, Josh Giddy,
who I thought would just stuff stats the late season
pat on the back for that one, Jabari Smith Junior
a little bit of a miss there. I had him
among the top ten guys I thought would be most
likely to make their first All Star game with like
Caid and Franz and Shingoon and Jada Mobiley Wemby turned
out okay on most of those, but Kaminga is very
much the like which one doesn't belong in all of these.
So all this is is a confirmation of the fact that,
especially with like young Warriors prospects, I can't be trusted.
I am irrational about them, and for what it's worth,
I am presently out on Kaminga as like a star
level player. So it only took three years longer than
it took everyone else for me to get there. But
I just don't think he's gotten in him to be
like a star player role player. Fine, it's just I don't.
I don't see it happening anymore, and I apologize the
I mean.
Speaker 1: You being wrong also makes and the context of it
also being they traded for Jimmy Butler. I like, what
is going to happen with him and restricted free agency.
I'm sure a lot is riding on how well does
he perform in the playoffs and the role that they
kind of have him doing. Now there's been from what
I've seen, there's been some pretty like encouraging highs and
then like Nader's and it's that's the experiences, that's that
is it.
Speaker 4: You've described his whole career.
Speaker 3: It's like tantalizing highs and then stretches where it's like
this guy does not have it. It's just that's what
it is.
Speaker 2: Do you think this isn't what the pokt is about?
Really quickly?
Speaker 1: The thirty million dollars a year that he was seeking
or that they offered him and he turned down, regardless
of whether he's on the Warriors or another team.
Speaker 2: Is he earning less than that?
Speaker 3: Oh? God? Yeah, Like I think twenty is the is
the ceiling now as a starting salary because it's he's
gonna have Brooklyn and he's gonna have mid level offers probably,
Like I just think I think that's where we are,
so they're not gonna have to if they approach thirty
I would be stunned it Like, they just don't have to.
Speaker 1: I'm including this one a part of it because I
don't believe it. I had the Knicks will have a
league average or better defense and will be the biggest
threat to the Celtics in the East. Now the Knicks technically,
I still don't believe it, Like if you watch the like,
I just don't believe that they are going to finish
the season with what are they twelfth in points of
loud per possession this year or what is the overall
ranking their ninth over like their pass whatever games that
coincided with you know, jail runs a missing time, but
they're twelfth in points loud per possession over overall.
Speaker 2: In the year.
Speaker 1: I don't buy it, Like, I just don't. I count
that as a miss on my part. Be Hold on,
you're still you're right, and you're not buying it. I
just watched their defense and it's you know, you did
force me to take a closer look at og Nanobi
when we were doing awards last year. He should absolutely
be on more all defense ballots. But the thing I'm
not buying, because they haven't beaten like any of the
really good teams, is that they're not the second biggest
threat in the East. That is one you throw a name,
it's the Calves, and then I even have the Pacers
ahead of them. Right now, you could probably on any
given night talk me into the Bucks or even the Pistons.
Speaker 2: At this point, I'm not prepared.
Speaker 1: To go there, but I don't feel good, like I
would have almost guaranteed they win at least one playoff
series this year at the time.
Speaker 2: I won't do that anymore.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I picked them to beat the Pistons or
the Bucks, whoever they face. Sure, but I won't feel
nearly as good about it. And I think the real
miss here is thinking that because I've gone back and
forth as to does this team deserve more time? Because
when you look at how they remade the roster, especially
getting Towns so close to the start of training camp
in fury, you deserve more time. But time is not
a luxury when you've burned all of your best trade assets,
and like, where are you going if you're not touching
the core? You can't really I would say futs and
fiddle in a meaningful way. And now I think you
have to like, I don't think I ever would have
envisioned coming out of this season saying, oh, Giannanobi and
Jalen Brunson are the only players that should be untouchable
on the Knicks and that's it. I probably would have said, well,
at least one of Michal Bridges or Towns is too
important to move, And now I look at it Towns
has had a great year in a lot of ways.
Some people thought that he was more valuable to Jalen
Brunson at one point. That never should have been a thing.
I want to be clear. Josh Hart is like, can
we find he brings the energy, but he's a clear
liability in some of these matchups because of his shooting,
because of how teams don't guard him and put their
bigs on him and help off him row them off him.
I feel there's real talent here and they have the
third best record in the East. They have like a
top what are they seventh in net rating or whatever?
They're even look grant this is factoring in that beatdown
they suffered in the hands of the Celtics. They're sixteenth
in points a lot per possession against top ten offenses
now and their fourth overall and net rating against those teams.
And yet I just feel like I missed on them still,
And I think the biggest miss for me was and
you actually did bring this up, I didn't give it
enough credence at the time. I remember the conversation. They
were not built. They were built in the image of
contending with the Celtics, and it was an imperfect division
of the way they were planning on going about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you think they could be I guess I
think I know the answer. Do you think they could
be better next year?
Speaker 1: For them to be better next year, I think that
you have to believe the head coaching change is the
way to make it happen if you're not moving one
of the top five players, and it's I I think
I'm probably on the middle ground of TIBs now where
it's there's absolutely a problem with the minutes and the
stubborness when it comes to some of his guys. If
Knicks fans have a problem with people stating the obvious,
tell Thibodeau to stop making obvious mistakes.
Speaker 2: But there's also just like the culture.
Speaker 1: He's helped build there, I think he has been a
little bit more flexible when you look at you know,
against the Celtic I think with that Celtics game, but
they also lost. Of course, like Jalen Brunson comes back
and because of what you've seen with og on the
ball now one you've empowered him to do that. Like, oh,
Jalen Brunson's setting more screens. I think they finally tried
some different things defensively against the Celtics. So he's not
I don't think he's this rigid coach who won't make changes.
Speaker 2: But if I've.
Speaker 1: Wondered, and I think it was you I mentioned this too.
If people consider, oh, the Calves needed to find their
Kenny Atkinson to their JB. Bickerstaff, Like are the Knicks
at the point where it's okay, like Tom Tibdau has
brought them here, But if they want to get to
the level that the Calves are at now or the
Celtics are at now, they need to find their Kenny,
they need to find their Steve Kerr even well.
Speaker 3: And that's that like ties into the reality that like,
like you've said several times, you can't change the roster
in a meaningful way unless you really change the roster
by trading one of these main guys. So it's like
the coach changes the logical thing to try because that's
just easier. I just, yeah, that's I really thought about
that being the fix, just because I I there do
seem to be like I guess like with towns as
your center, you're just your ceiling, is what it is.
Like he just has these priced in limitations. But I
do wonder if, like what would happen if you could
get Towns to take ten threes a game? Like what
you know, like what could we like just see or
like could there be a little more offensive dynamism could
like just not with TIBs, is what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I well, maybe, because like so the Celtics, the most
recent Celtic seem is a good example. Maybe it took
too long to get here, but it's they're gonna put
someone small on Karl Anthony Towns, like, oh, make him
punish those mismatches. But it's all so like even if
you use defensively as where I'm more concerned. I wish
his shot profile skewed more towards the outside, but defensively
look at it and say, even when they're more aggressive
with him, then you kind of need that's where I
think he's best suited. Then you kind of need to
make sure that you're trusting everybody else on their rotations
and they're scrambling and with Jalen Brunson and even with
Josh hart At like you can't even do that. And
so I am open to the idea that Timms is
not the primary problem. But if this is the core
you want to move forward with. I think you have
to depending on what happens in the playoffs, of course,
and I know they just extended him, but that really
doesn't mean anything. Look at what happened with Monty Williams
last year in the contract that they fired him that
he was on.
Speaker 3: I just.
Speaker 1: Like, let's say they want to move off some of
their players. People know what Josh Hart's limitations are. You're
not getting better, like a lot better by moving Josh Hart.
You're not getting better, especially when you consider all you invested. Yes,
there will be teams that will trade for Kalmber Bridges
up Mkalemba Bridges, McHale Bridges. There are exactly zero teams
that will give you anywhere near what you gave up
to get him in terms of value as a player
or pick equity. Even Towns is just We'll have more
on this at some point. I think, like I've given
thought to just would it be worth rolling the dice
of if you could use Karl Anthony Towns to get
Kevin Durant, and then if you bringing Kevin Durant, your
overall defense gets better, You're scoring probably gets a little better,
and then it's what we need Mitchell Robinson and need
to approximate value at the center position with other bigs.
Speaker 2: Is that a better route for them to go? I
don't know.
Speaker 1: But if you're not gonna be able to do anything
like that or move one of these players who I
do agree, by the way, like Jalen Bruns and Ogantobe,
they can't go anywhere like those are the two like
you move forward with them. If you don't think that
you can get material lea better by making a trade,
you have to look at changing head coaches again, unless
maybe they like let me ask you, do you think
they're one of the teams that can be better in
the playoffs than we've seen against it? Because you and
I are pretty big on you have to throw some
so much of the regular season out the window because
of injuries, and you're just not getting time to get
plan for teams. I just don't know that I've seen
enough out of the Knicks in net to think that
once they get to the postseason they have the sort
of any given Sunday chance.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And with them it's a special case because like
they kind of throw their fastball every night. In terms
of like who's playing so it's like we've I don't
know that there's like, oh, okay, playoff time, let's shorten
the rotation, let's really focus on what we do well.
They kind of like they just do that on every
Thursday or what like that. That's just that's just how
they play. So I don't know how much you're really
gonna learn. And but then I think back to like
how fun they were as a playoff team last year
and how much I enjoyed, like, Oh, isn't it great
when the Knicks are like just balls to the wall
and like playing really hard, And so yeah, I I
don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: They're They're a fascinating team. I don't think they have
another level to go. You could, so I asked the
question initially, but like you could talk me into the
idea that full training camp, like some come to Jesus
moments with the coaching staff of like what do we
really got to do with these guys, Like what's the
best way to play on both ends? Can we tweak
a few things like tactically? You could talk me into
them being better next year with the same personnel and
even the same coach. But I think we're sort of
saying the same thing where like you need a tactical
or a personnel based shift, then it might need to
be pretty big, like to do better than what they're doing.
Speaker 1: And I think, look, this one's come back to the
Tim's minutes. But it's I know Jalen Brunson missed some time,
like like start to look at the availability of these
guys over the past couple seasons. At some point that
love the mchal Bridges, iron Man Luck is going to
run out at some point, like ognob this year, like
is he gonna finish with three thousand minutes?
Speaker 2: I don't remember how close? Like that stuff is not
something that you can continue to bank on. And then
the other thing, like with Tims, specifically the starting lineup.
I understand that those are your five best players, and
in theory that should be the line of your on
the most you're plus four points or whatever per one
hundred possessions. That's not like for the most used lineup
in the league. It's like, why aren't we trying more stuff?
Speaker 1: And it's it's it seems obvious and it's counter to like, oh,
you don't need to pull him out of the starting five.
But that's that's the stuff that Tibbs I don't think
has ever gotten far enough away from, Like he's always
is always gonna come back to be married to his guys,
even if it's not his principles, like some of the
ways he plays dual guard lineups, going a little bit
smaller in points, having a floor spacing big at all,
like like he's grown. But I just don't know if
it's enough. And look, because we're in the business of
giving definitive statements, No, I don't. I don't think that
Tom Thibodeau is the right coach for this team. I'm
open to the idea that I'm too low on him.
I think that some people blame him too much for
what is happening. But I do think that this is
a situation that you could squeeze ten to twenty percent
better production, like as a whole out of if the
coaching approach was different or more innovative. And that's just
something that I still it's fair. Do you still believe
this take about John burran.
Speaker 3: Ooh, well, it's the face of the lead for the
wrong reasons, I guess. So. I thought Jaw this year
would have a shot to kind of like this time
a year ago, I guess maybe even a little less
than that, Anthony Edwards was like, all right, he's it.
He's the next American superstar player, Like he's he's the guy,
and really like has even though I'd say the Wolf
season has been sort of a disappointment, I don't think
he's done anything to kind of like quiet that down.
It's not like at a fever pitch like it was
during the last postseason and even some of the Olympics stuff,
early Olympic stuff where he just looked like the only
guy that could create a shot. I thought Jaw would
get back to that level. And like part of this
is you just look at the body of work where
very early in his career, Moran is like, well, the
Grizzlies are in the conference finals, like oh all right,
like or you know, they're making a couple of playoff runs.
Speaker 4: I never get it exactly right.
Speaker 3: It's either seventh and ninth or like ninth and twelfth
or something like that. In MVP voting, just like a
couple of years ago, the like the bounce, the the
comeback angle, the whole like the Grizzlies were only bad
because they had the entire roster hurt, so they're gonna
be back in the national consciousness.
Speaker 4: Like they'll be good, He'll be great.
Speaker 3: We'll just be back to you know, he'll be in
the conversation again. Is like, this is the guy that
Nike gave a bunch of money to right away, got
a signature shoe. We'll think about him on the Edwards level.
And then he's hurt on and off all season. Gets
back to like being in the news for the wrong reasons.
Memphis turns out pretty dysfunctional situation, not necessarily his fault,
but like that's you know that that hurts the narrative
to not not his fault. So that was just wrong again,
though this is a I feel better about being wrong
about stuff like this, where I'm predicting that someone is
gonna like have a great positive thing happen, and it's
just like it's disappointing, but it's like, you know, I
it's better to be wrong this way than than to
have something go the other way where you're like he'll
be horrible or you know, and being wrong that way.
Speaker 1: I meant to this, so that going back to how
you felt about Scoot coming out of the draft and
then just having this type of a take with John Moran.
Do you have a thing for that hyper athletic point guard,
because I don't. I've never vi utus with Russell Westbrook guy.
And you've also been pretty open or candid about the
fact that you think players such as John Moran might
just have a shorter prime than a lot of these
other stars. But you've also been this take on John
Moran and I remember how high.
Speaker 2: I think that's the single.
Speaker 1: We've only been podcasting together for like three or four
years at this point, but I'm pretty sure that's the
single highest I've ever seen you on.
Speaker 2: A prospect on on Scoot, Yeah, Scoot, sorry.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's a little he's he just I
just drank the kool aid on like the hyperbolic scouting
reports his film. He just looked even you remember those
like I forget what they even were, was like Overtime
Elite or whichever one he was on Ignite. I can't
remember playing against like Wemby's French team. This is like
two octobers ago, and it's like, yeah, Wemby's like incredible,
but Scoot looks so explosive and like he's here for it,
and like I just that just put it over the
top for me to where I just thought Scoot was
gonna be Chris Paul and Russell Westbrook combined. You know,
you couldn't have said anything too ridiculous, and as you know,
I was wrong about that. I'm glad that he looks
like a real like legit like difference maker now or
has a chance to be. So yeah, I guess he's
a little different. Jaw was just like some of the
things he could do athletically and some of the moments
he would have where it was just like, there's no
solution for this guy because he just he just physically
can get where he wants to get at all times,
and like, what do you do with that? That's definitely
like the I don't know, like the unsophisticated basketball fan
in me, like just overtaking like hey, Dumby, he can't
shoot and like can't guard anybody, and he's gonna get hurt,
and it's just like I just shut all that noise out.
I think something, as is the case with most things,
like the truth is in the middle. Like he's athletically spectacular,
he does things no one else can do. He has
a bunch of flaws as a player, and to that
we now add like durability. So you know, I will
say that I will not be predicting another Jamarant like
a cent for next year, even though like you could
put it together in your brain if you wanted to,
like new coach, I don't know, new three point celebration.
I don't know if you saw that that was that
was interesting?
Speaker 1: Uh so did you see the tweet from Chasing Conception
of the Six Rings podcast or whatever it's called, where
it was like Jamarant choosing a celebration and it was
I don't know what game it was, but it was
all the different like weapons that you.
Speaker 3: Use, He's just running through them.
Speaker 2: So you have a back to back one here.
Speaker 1: This is shared one from us, I will say basically though,
but ye have one.
Speaker 3: This is another kool aid one where although it was
like pre draft like statistical models that said Reed Shepherd
was just gonna be incredible, like there's just never been
a guy this efficient as a scorer, as a distributor,
as a disruptor on defense. So I thought, and I
definitely used this word more than once, that Reed Shepherd
would be like undeniable and the rockets, Hey they're gonna
have to make some tough decisions. Maybe you've got to
trade Fred van Vliet or like diminish his role or something,
because yeah, you know, because this would be the pushback. Well,
rockets have so much depth, Like Aman Thompson's got to play.
Fred van Vliet's here on a thirty million dollars a
year deal or whatever it is, Like, he's got to play.
Don't care. Read Shepherd's just going to be too good.
They'll have no choice. And then Summer League kind of
made it seem that, like, Okay, that's not a crazy
take because he looked really good and then he just
flashed it. Now he's played like forty games, he's averaging
three points a game, hasn't shot it well. He did
get one start and he looked great, But he still
has just gotten one start and one game in which
he looked great. You were on board with I don't
know if you got in. He's gonna be undeniable of
it all, but like you were on board with him,
and so I ask you, how do you feel about
Reed Shepherd?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Like going forward? How dampened is your enthusiasm?
Speaker 1: It's a little damping just in a sense I don't
know if then he'll ever have the agency to develop
into the player that I still believe that he could be,
because I think if you told me that the Rockets
really committed to Read Shepherd and we're willing to take
a step back in terms of progress, isn't linear mode.
I still think Read Shepherd is the play like everything
they need, but they're on this different timeline now, and
it gets if he reaches it with them and feels
like it'll be delayed where it's like you're bringing and
like they do have a history of bringing their youngsters
along a little bit, like even Aman Thompson last year. Yeah,
but they did the same thing with Cam Whitmore and
he hasn't been like a massive part of what they're doing,
but in terms of like trying to increase it from
last year. So I worry that if Read Shepherd's gonna
be as good as I thought he was gonna be,
that it's not going to be on this team, which
I guess is fine. But whenever you see someone so
like if he winds up being traded in a consolidation
trade before his third year, how often do we see
the players involved in that just go on to become
actual like shake Gildes, Alexander's pretty anomalist.
Speaker 3: Right something like that? Yeah, do you so? I think
like the fact that it did take an injury for
Thompson to like get a starting spot and stick this year,
I think is like is a heartening thing to know
if you're trying to like suss out.
Speaker 4: Well is reed Shepherd?
Speaker 3: Like did he not play it because like I don't
know in practice or whatever, is like he's just overwhelmed,
he's not ready or was it because the Rockets just
just don't like throw the guy out there. They just
don't do it like they you know, like Thompson. It's
watching Thompson now. It's insane that like how did how
did this guy not start the year in the first unit?
How did he not finish? Like it? Just so as
a as a Shepherd believer to answer my own question,
I still think like it's way too soon to say, oh,
he doesn't have it, Like I think I think there's
every chance he's got it and he's gonna be a
really good pro a starter or whatever. But like it
does make me concerned that that the Rockets, like I
don't know what a guy's got to do to really
get a fair shot. And maybe that's just because they
got mouths, a bunch of mouths to feed, and his
contract status is not the is not as urgent as like, well,
we better find out about Thompson, we better find out
about whatever. Like maybe that's a factor too. I still believe,
I just I'm just gonna be really interested to see
what kind of shot he gets next year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I still believe he's gonna be the best player
of this draft class. It's either gonna be hammering of
coolatopish for me, another guy who hasn't played for for injuries.
There's another player and there ever, we're gonna get to him,
and he's clearly not gonna be the best player of
this draft class. My final two here, well, no, let's
get to him right now. Cody Williams will make first
team All Rookie. I can say with some measure of
confidence that Cody Williams is not going to make first
team rookie. He has a higher turnover rate than his
usage rate under forty percent from two under twenty seven
percent from three. There have been grant a number of
fifty five rookies who have logged at least log at
least a thousand minutes and have a usage rate south
of thirteen, which is incredibly low. Hard Cody Williams comfortably
has the worst true shooting percentage of them all at
forty one to point nine. Second to last and fifty
fourth is Yakuba Diawara had a forty five true shooting percentage,
so like almost four percentage three percentage points higher. I
still believe that he could become kind of this usual
wing player. I think specifically on defense it will be
there the malleability, But offensively, I don't know if he's
ever gonna have like the get it mode. I thought
he could be someone who could initiate in addition to
getting going downhill and be aggressive.
Speaker 2: I've just I'm not out.
Speaker 1: But I had number one on my draft bickboard and
that was a mistake.
Speaker 3: Well point in his He's Jayalen Williams brother, so he's
gonna be great, don't worry about it. So I was
doing a bunch of work on the on the Jazz's
rookie class the other day and and I was trying
to you did a great You did a better job
than I did. I was just trying to, like encapsulate,
just like how invisible Williams can be. And I think
it's pretty I'll get it pretty close to right because
I don't have it in front of me. But like
in his first I think his first eighteen games as
a pro, he made sixteen shots. And do you know
what I thought when I when I read that stat
seems high?
Speaker 4: Seems high? Really, I couldn't tell you.
Speaker 3: I can't remember him making eight shots in his first
eighteen like he I don't know what what you do
with a guy that like just isn't like participating for
so much of the time he's on the floor. I like,
it's hard to really think of you sided Diuara, that
guy was in the NBA for a like a second,
Like I just I don't know, like what you do
to coax like some production some like involvement, Like is
it schematic?
Speaker 2: Is it just?
Speaker 4: Is it him?
Speaker 3: Like is he really just party the problem?
Speaker 2: Should they fire him?
Speaker 3: Just why isn't will Hardy getting thirty shots a night
for Cody Williams. Dan Uh, Yeah, that's a tough one.
I I like Cody Williams too, I didn't like him
as much as you did, So I don't have quite
as much skin in the game. But that's it was
a tough look this year because why wouldn't the Jazz
just let him explore the space? What do they have
to lose?
Speaker 1: Apparently a whole lot at this point, a lot of
like a lot of I'm just.
Speaker 2: That's a huge miss.
Speaker 1: Also, this is I don't feel terrible about this final one.
But I predicted that Scottie Barnes will join the twenty
five point eight assist club. He didn't even join the
twenty and six club. He's like under twenty points per game.
It was ambitious because here's the list of players Grant
have done that before their twenty fourth birthday, Luka, Doncic,
Trey Young, Oscar Robinson, Tiny Archibald and John Morant.
Speaker 2: It's like that was pretty ambitious. But I was looking
at even with RJ.
Speaker 1: Barrett and Emmanuel Quickly, and we knew Quickly was kind
of injured at the time. I looked at it and said,
all right, if he stays healthy, like the offense kind
of has to run through him, they could they do
some egalitarian stuff, but he's just gonna put up numbers.
I think he's made a ton of strides defensively. I
haven't seen as much of it offensively, and I kind
of bought into just like, oh, the perimeter game from
him a lot.
Speaker 2: Of flashes last year. This year feels more rickety, So
I don't.
Speaker 1: I still think Scottie Barnes is going to be like,
he's an all NBA type of player to me, but
if he's going to join the twenty five and eight club,
it is not going to be this season.
Speaker 3: Was that a bold prediction or was it as part
of a bold predictions or was that just a this
is the sane prediction.
Speaker 1: I wrote, and I didn't pull all of them from here.
I was actually impressed, like some of mine like actually hit.
But I wrote one prediction for every team, so they
were just trying to be not like, oh, Scottie Barnes
will play in twenty five games, like at least twenty five,
Like I wasn't trying to make him just oh duh.
But I didn't count this as a bold prediction because
I thought like he was over what was he the
season before, where he was at twenty or twenty five
and or twenty three and six.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was ambitious.
Speaker 1: It was ambitious insofar as I'm trying to look at
his numbers now that are not like he was around
twenty points and six assists, which is basically where he
kind of stayed this year. So I jumped the shark
a little bit or indefinitely here, all right, before we
reveal the winner of our over under competition, let's look
at I'll throw it up on screen, but for anyone
listening on audio, Grant and I would just pull out
anything else that sort of stands out of how teams
fared relative to their over unders here. So looking at
kind of that screen, Rener, you can see how every
team either outperformed or miss Is there anyone maybe we
haven't talked about or you just want to reiterate that
stands out to you, Well.
Speaker 3: I mean the heat or the first one. They're going
to be seven and a half on pace to be
seven and a half under that number. I guess the
Butler trade is part of that. But like they were circling,
they were in rough shape even before that. You know
the other thing I noticed I wrote preseason, it's kind
of wondering. I don't think I can't say I called it,
but it was like, is there maybe a Jimmy Butler
trade brewing at some point, and so like maybe that
was more foreseeable than it. It became pretty obvious pretty fast.
But like, I guess maybe that should have been priced
into that over under at some point, and pretty clearly
it wasn't.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: What stands out to me, so the Wizard's only missing
by about two and a half, where it's, oh, they're
technically worse, but they were so get racked up so
many losses so early that like they kind of go
through these where they're winning more games, being a little
bit more competitive at points later in the season that
it's there they feel like they ended up being better
than we and they were better than the wins that
we like specifically, or at least I had them penzeled
them in for. But them being so close to their
over under when I was probably sure that they were
gonna lean so far away from it, I think it
shows the value of being bad.
Speaker 2: Right out of the gate.
Speaker 3: I think the Spurs being really close to the number
despite losing Wemby when they did is pretty surprising. That
means they were actually like quite a bit better than
most people thought before that, you know, before they lost him.
That's a weird one that's gonna end up hitting, but
like for reasons that we're not that foreseeable, you know
that there's that's a that's an interesting one to me.
Speaker 1: How about the Thunder out performing by ten and a
half within where it's just they were so high.
Speaker 2: To begin with, and yet they join the Calves.
Speaker 3: The Rockets, the Bulls.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like those are teams that were working well for
the Pistons and Bulls, they're working from lower baselines specifically.
And even Houston it was there over under was what
forty three?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like so.
Speaker 1: Oksees was well, they were like fifty three and a
half award and they were like one of the easiest
overs for me.
Speaker 2: And yet look at.
Speaker 1: All the time that Holme Grin and Isaiah Hartenstein missed,
Alex Caruso missed some time. We've had quibbles their offense
at points aside from Shay, and they're just not like
almost eleven wins over their projection.
Speaker 3: Well, how about this one. If you exclude like the
catastrophe teams meaning the Sixers and the Pelicans, the Jazz
have the miss they're over under on the negative side
by more than anyone else. So it's like clearly coming
into the year, everybody's like the Jazz are gonna do
it again, They're gonna win too much, and then they're
gonna have to pivot. Like nope, they they understood the
assignment finally, for in year three of the rebuild, they
just they they really were bad from the jump and
stayed bad in defiance of expectations that they would like
Chicago bulls it a little bit.
Speaker 1: Do you do you know who did not understand the assignment?
Who's that the Minnesota Timberwolves. Only missing by four and
a half isn't egregious, But depending on the day, you
could convince me that they're gonna miss it by twenty
and a half or exceed it by ten and a half.
They have one of the best point differentials against top
ten teams in the league, their top five, and yet
they have a losing record in those games. And then
overall they have underperformed. Their win total has underperformed relative
to their point differential more than any team in the
league this year. They are the classic. Maybe not classic
because I feel like they're reinventing ways to cut your
heart out, but they play up in big games, it
feels like and then they are they play down the
level of their opponent, or if they have leads in
the fourth quarter and crunch time, just building out big
leads in general? Is there a team that you trust
less to maintain those leads?
Speaker 2: Right? Like maybe Miami a little bit, but I think
Minnesota would have to be the answer here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a last I don't know if it's
the last one. But the one that strikes me as
interesting is didn't was it this year that we had
the Atlanta over as like, oh, that's an easy over?
Like what Jalen Johnson's good? They got Dyson Daniels, he
fits with Trey Okong, will be better DeAndre Hunter like,
and they're still going over. But that's despite by three
and a half wins. That's despite Johnson going down for
the year, and that's despite like Capella being so bad
he loses his job. And that's despite trading Hunter away
and doing the like tax ducking deal at the deadline
that we you know, like that, for them to still
go over by that much just speaks to how insanely
low they're over under was to begin with?
Speaker 1: Did it for the nets of being seven and a
half over? But you know, the final team for me
that stands out, I like, depending on the day. Again,
it feels like the Boston Celtics are on the verge
of total implosion and they're just this sixty win team
outperforming their win projection by two and a half. I
had the under for them, I believe, because I was just, Oh,
they want a title, They're gonna try and conserve energy,
and they did dealt Like Jalen Brown's been battling injuries,
Christoph Sporzingis has missed a ton of time, and there
have been in perfections with jow holiday shooting, Jalen Brown's shooting,
and yet yeah, Peyton Pritchard stepping up certainly helps.
Speaker 2: There's still just this elite team.
Speaker 1: And I can't bring myself to like finagle any sort
of panic for the Boston Celtics. And I find like
one of our mutual friends who's a Warriors fan, descends
into existential crisis anytime something goes remotely wrong with the Warriors.
Speaker 2: And I just have no empathy for that.
Speaker 1: And I'm similar with the Boston Celtics, where if you're concerned,
like why did the Celtics suck? Or why isn't Joe
Mizzoula doing this or like, oh, what are they doing
with these lineups?
Speaker 2: I'm just like, like, what are we doing? Right?
Speaker 3: I know I said it was the last one. The
Lakers being on pace to win seven and a half
more games than they're over under. It's it's I don't
know what the historic stats are on this, but like
the Lakers over under is always way too high just
because that's they're a public team and that's how that
works for them to smoke it by that much. On
the positive side, considering like just the general enthusiasm there
seems to be for the Lakers, pretty pretty impressive. They
they don't touch the Clippers, who are nine and a
half over, but still still pretty wild for the Lakers
to beat it by by that margin.
Speaker 1: I do have a final one for those interested, because
this will be the sixty year running. I may miss
on it, but there's still a chance that I don't.
I hate I picked the under for Memphis. They're currently
on pace to clear the over despite everything that's happened. Honestly,
that's kind of there's no other team that I've missed
for six consecutive years.
Speaker 3: There's no you're going to miss it, just fate. Fate
demands it that you can't be right about the grizzlies,
so pencil that one in are.
Speaker 1: Is everybody ready for the reveal of who won Hour
over Under competition?
Speaker 3: Is it me?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, actually very quickly. You were fifteen and fifteen.
Speaker 1: I was fourteen and sixteen with the potential to be
mine were more unsettled than yours, but fourteen and sixteen.
The winner of the Hardwood Knocks over Under competition this
year is McKinley C went twenty and ten. So reach
out to me and our discord will set you up
with the merch schedule, the guest hosting thing based on
your availability.
Speaker 2: McKinley C.
Speaker 1: If you're not in discord for some reason, if you
just found this through I think we had it on
our YouTube, maybe message me on the socials. But we
the top five, so shout out to Adam in second
place eighteen and twelve. Then we had a three way
tie at seventeen and thirteen. In third place, Austin went
seventeen and thirteen. I apologize in advance because I'm going
to butcher the pronunciation here. I'm sure Chemo ti Mana
went seventeen and thirteen, and then Nicolcha went seventeen and
thirteen as well. So that's like, I'm surprised that we
didn't have This season was kind of wild. I thought
we'd have someone who went like twenty three and seven
or something, but strong showings here. We didn't have anyone
go worse than eleven and nineteen. We will not be
announcing that person publicly, of course, so but grant you
know what, I'm content. I was neither last nor the
best it would have been. I don't want to be
first place because how do I guest host our own show?
Speaker 3: Real It'd be tough. You can't wear both hats. Impossible.
Speaker 2: But shout out to everyone who participated. You guys are
the real MVP. So mckinlee, c Adam.
Speaker 1: Austin, Keemu, Time Mana, and Nicole Jay shout out to
you guys and McKinley c. Get in touch with me,
preferably on discord. If you messing me on Blue Sky,
Twitter or whatever, we will set you up with all
this stuff. Thanks for everyone who participated, and look, I
have another reason to join our discord. You get to
participate in fun shit like this, and if you win,
you get called out and if you lose, no one's
ever really gonna know right live, which then that that's okay.
Speaker 3: It's a no lose scenario.
Speaker 4: And like we're not hard to beat?
Speaker 3: Is the other thing? Like I don't know, I don't
want to know what percentage of people that submitted are
over unders beat us. It's it's it's probably higher than
we'd like to but that but that's good. That means
we have a we have an astute audience.
Speaker 1: I think you can feel comfortable knowing that your fifteen
and fifteen record positioned you in the top ten. I
would like to let you know that I dropped outside
the top fifteen. So it's a little bit marting cup there,
fourteen and sixteen versus fifteen and fifteen. So it's just
those are those are tough?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, why even do it if you're just
gonna go fifteen and fifteen? Like I could have just
flipped the coin thirty times, Like you are.
Speaker 1: Basically the Atlanta Hawks of the over Runner, Like, yeah,
you're so aggressively mid in this well.
Speaker 3: But like I tried, so who's aggressively mid? But like
really tried?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I do think in retrospect, this ended
up being one of the tougher years for the over
Unders because there is parody, but there was just all
these massive audibles in curveball.
Speaker 3: Throughout the league. Yeah, good times.
Speaker 2: Are you ready to take us out of here? Yep?
Speaker 3: Thanks everybody again for participating in our over unders. Thanks
for beating us. Those of you that we beat, deal
with it. It feels pretty good over here at fifteen
and fifteen. Thanks for listening, Thanks for watching. Remember rate review, subscribe,
join our discord. So, as Dan says, if you participating
stuff like that links for YouTube podcast description, tell your friends,
tell your enemies, make sure you're leaving comments on YouTube.
Let us know what you got wrong, just to make
us feel better. So we're not alone out here in
admitting our faults. And yeah, make sure that you shout
out Frank Miltina and apologized to jaredy