WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.519 --> 00:00:13.060 What are you waiting for? Come on in. This podcast 2 00:00:13.109 --> 00:00:20.649 may contain graphic content and strong language. Listener discretion is advised. Hi, Hannah. Oh, sorry, 3 00:00:20.690 --> 00:00:24.149 I was drinking. Hi, Mary. Well, stop drinking. How the 4 00:00:24.190 --> 00:00:28.250 hell are you? Fantastic. How are you? Sorry, I was drinking. 5 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:36.640 I'm doing fantastic. I can see that. You're drinking. I'm texting, too. Also, 6 00:00:36.700 --> 00:00:40.859 you're drinking Deliciousness. Oh, my Lord. That is really good, too. 7 00:00:40.939 --> 00:00:43.659 I know. I love this one. Welcome to Murder, Mischief, 8 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:48.719 and Moscato, everyone. I'm Hannah Green. I'm Mary Swartz. What's 9 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:51.719 new in your life? Just got our siding done. I know. 10 00:00:51.799 --> 00:00:54.619 It looks great. It looks good. I know. It looks 11 00:00:54.659 --> 00:00:58.759 very good. Yeah. Anything else new? We have a ginormous 12 00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:03.950 frog up north. Aww. He's ginormous. He's so cool. Aww. 13 00:01:04.049 --> 00:01:07.109 I know. Has Aurora given him a name? Well, the 14 00:01:07.129 --> 00:01:10.030 first time she just said his name is Froggy. So 15 00:01:10.090 --> 00:01:12.390 I don't know if his name is going to change. Oh, okay. 16 00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:14.109 But I did find out that they do tend to 17 00:01:14.150 --> 00:01:16.030 come back if they find a safe spot. They will 18 00:01:16.079 --> 00:01:18.680 come back to the same spot every year. Aww. Because 19 00:01:18.760 --> 00:01:21.480 our original one from last year is back, too. Aww. 20 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:25.519 I love that. I know. Yay. I love it, too. Yay. 21 00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:29.540 And my pear trees are empty. I know. I saw them. 22 00:01:30.250 --> 00:01:34.450 That's hilarious. I know. Who knew that deer would stand 23 00:01:34.489 --> 00:01:36.189 on their hind legs and eat the fruit off of 24 00:01:36.209 --> 00:01:39.290 your trees? I do not know, but it's really awesome. 25 00:01:39.430 --> 00:01:42.459 They are clever little buggers. I woke up at like 6.45 26 00:01:42.459 --> 00:01:44.439 one morning when I was up north, and I looked 27 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:48.340 out the window, and yeah, she was out there having breakfast. Aw. 28 00:01:48.939 --> 00:01:51.280 Should have offered her a cup of coffee. They tend 29 00:01:51.299 --> 00:01:56.040 to get scared away kind of easily. So, yep, I 30 00:01:56.060 --> 00:01:58.430 just took a couple pictures and a little video of her. 31 00:01:59.430 --> 00:02:03.510 It's very cute. I know. I know. I love the 32 00:02:03.530 --> 00:02:06.900 wildlife in my yard up there, though. I do. It's 33 00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:10.620 a good thing up there. It really is. It is. Alrighty, 34 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:16.879 are you ready for a douchebag? Oh. Yes. Yes, I 35 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:20.189 guess I'm ready for a douchebag. Okay. Only if I 36 00:02:20.229 --> 00:02:22.909 can make fun of him. Okay. Or her. It's him, 37 00:02:22.969 --> 00:02:26.550 and I chose him for his last name. Oh, goody. Yeah. Yeah. 38 00:02:27.189 --> 00:02:33.849 Larry D. Hubbard was born on September 2nd of 1952. Sorry. 39 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:46.780 Chosen for the name. He also went by the name 40 00:02:46.810 --> 00:02:52.650 Larry David Barnes and Larry Lamar Ratliff. So he was 41 00:02:52.710 --> 00:02:56.349 convicted of robbery in Florida in 1974. He escaped from 42 00:02:56.389 --> 00:03:02.030 prison in 1977. Okay. Okay. So he was literally 22 43 00:03:02.030 --> 00:03:04.449 when they convicted him and sent him to prison the 44 00:03:04.490 --> 00:03:08.430 first time. Okay. He remained a fugitive for decades until 45 00:03:08.469 --> 00:03:13.770 May of 2007. Wow. Okay. That's pretty good. In the meantime, 46 00:03:14.449 --> 00:03:20.560 Sonia Smith, who was 25, was... Killed on August 19th 47 00:03:20.569 --> 00:03:23.639 of 1980. Her body was found in an abandoned field 48 00:03:23.680 --> 00:03:26.000 in Los Angeles. She was found with her wrists and 49 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:30.319 ankles tied. She had been sexually assaulted and strangled. Phyllis McClinton, 50 00:03:31.620 --> 00:03:36.219 she was 25, killed November 4th of 1980 in South 51 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:40.530 Los Angeles. She had similar injuries and circumstances to Sonia. 52 00:03:41.849 --> 00:03:44.849 Vanessa Williams, who was 45, was murdered in Los Angeles. 53 00:03:46.419 --> 00:03:50.199 on August 11th of 2000 in Pomona, California, and she 54 00:03:50.219 --> 00:03:53.259 was found strangled in a field. That's quite a span 55 00:03:53.300 --> 00:03:57.689 of time, though, 20 years in between. Which tells me 56 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:02.750 that either he was incarcerated under another name, or he 57 00:04:02.789 --> 00:04:05.550 was committing other crimes that he wasn't caught for. Or 58 00:04:05.569 --> 00:04:09.870 he was in a different area. Or he had moved 59 00:04:09.909 --> 00:04:14.349 to a different area. Yeah. Christine Fields, who was 27, 60 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:17.860 was killed on October 14th of 2000. She was also 61 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:20.800 strangled and her body was left in a field. So, yeah, 62 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:25.670 I would almost say that he was either incarcerated under 63 00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:28.810 one of his other names or he had actually left 64 00:04:29.009 --> 00:04:32.930 for maybe two decades and come back. I'm not sure. Yeah, because, like, 65 00:04:32.990 --> 00:04:35.569 he did two, bang, bang, and then nothing for 20 66 00:04:35.569 --> 00:04:39.850 years and then another two, bang, bang. Yeah. So he 67 00:04:39.930 --> 00:04:44.050 actually attacked another woman in November of 2000. She survived 68 00:04:44.110 --> 00:04:48.629 and identified him as her attacker. So they arrested him 69 00:04:48.649 --> 00:04:54.860 and eventually his DNA led to the 1980 murders and 70 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.120 then to the 2000 murders. Good. So he left his 71 00:04:58.139 --> 00:05:02.519 DNA in all of them. Good. And good on them 72 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.220 for keeping the DNA from 1980 because that did not 73 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.399 always happen. So he was also linked to other multiple 74 00:05:08.540 --> 00:05:13.079 unsolved murders in Southern California, but there was a lot 75 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:18.750 of circumstantial evidence. His victims were basically tied together by 76 00:05:19.089 --> 00:05:24.110 the method of death, the location, their background. All right. 77 00:05:24.269 --> 00:05:28.410 His death in 2008 ended his criminal career, but there 78 00:05:28.449 --> 00:05:33.079 are many cases that remain unsolved that they think he committed. 79 00:05:33.579 --> 00:05:38.180 Which would then make more sense. Yes. So he died 80 00:05:38.240 --> 00:05:44.980 on January 13th of 2008 from complications of suicide by hanging. Oh, 81 00:05:45.019 --> 00:05:49.079 gee darn. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like it wasn't a quick 82 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:50.839 death then, and I'm glad to hear that. And I'm 83 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:56.120 glad to hear that, too. Wow. Yeah. What a fucking dickwad. Yeah. 84 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:58.540 What do you got for us on this day, girl? 85 00:06:00.579 --> 00:06:09.180 You usually bring us something interesting. It is interesting. It's 86 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.300 so well known that I'm actually not even going to 87 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.980 do a deep dive into this one at all. On 88 00:06:15.019 --> 00:06:24.879 this day in 1945, World War II ended. Oh. Oh. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, 89 00:06:24.899 --> 00:06:27.720 it came to an end as the Japanese Foreign Minister 90 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:40.490 Shigemitsu Mamoru and General... Yumezu Yoshihiro signed Japan's formal surrender 91 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:45.170 aboard the USS Missouri. Okay. It was actually a really 92 00:06:45.230 --> 00:06:52.490 important date in our history. In everybody's history. Yeah. But 93 00:06:52.550 --> 00:06:56.250 I just didn't, like, I could have done. Oh, of course. 94 00:06:56.329 --> 00:06:58.990 I could do nine weeks worth of podcasts on it 95 00:06:59.189 --> 00:07:02.350 if I really wanted to. But, you know, at the 96 00:07:02.389 --> 00:07:04.189 end of the day, it doesn't really matter all the details. 97 00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:07.879 all the details and the who's and the how's, but 98 00:07:07.889 --> 00:07:14.480 a ridiculous amount of lives were lost. I think in 99 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.160 war there usually is a ridiculous amount of lives lost. 100 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:23.279 And so, yeah. Why can't we all just get along? Yeah. 101 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:29.250 81 years ago today. Wow. Wow. That's crazy. Yeah. What 102 00:07:29.269 --> 00:07:32.209 are we drinking? Oh, my gosh. It is amazing, I'll 103 00:07:32.230 --> 00:07:34.449 tell you that. That's what I know about it. We 104 00:07:34.470 --> 00:07:39.250 should drink it more often. We should drink more often? Okay. St. 105 00:07:39.310 --> 00:07:44.329 Julian's Blackberry and Blueberry Hard Cider. This does not have 106 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.420 the bite that a lot of ciders have. It's super smooth. 107 00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:51.050 I mean, it has a little bit of tartness to it. 108 00:07:51.259 --> 00:07:54.560 It does, but, you know, ciders aren't necessarily tart, but 109 00:07:54.600 --> 00:07:56.620 sometimes you can tell a cider's a cider because it 110 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:00.060 has a little back bite to it. Yeah, this is 111 00:08:00.100 --> 00:08:05.470 just really, really nice. It's very crisp. Yes. It's definitely refreshing, 112 00:08:05.769 --> 00:08:08.670 which is great because it is a shitty day today. 113 00:08:08.730 --> 00:08:11.370 It's very muggy. Oh, God. I wouldn't call it shitty, 114 00:08:11.389 --> 00:08:14.889 but it is super muggy out there. It is so 115 00:08:14.980 --> 00:08:19.199 humid out that it is raining. How humid is it? 116 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.620 It's raining from the ceiling in my lab. Oh, maybe 117 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:26.600 you guys are in your own little weather zone. Our 118 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.000 thermostat is set to 63 degrees and it is raining 119 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.799 from the ceiling in our lab. That's crazy. Yeah. There's 120 00:08:33.860 --> 00:08:38.960 craziness right there. Absolutely crazy. All right. That's some humidity. 121 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:42.039 Speaking of crazy. I have a crazy story to bring 122 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:45.529 you today. Oh. I think you're going to like this. 123 00:08:47.769 --> 00:08:51.429 Sometimes I find those stories and I intentionally write them 124 00:08:51.470 --> 00:08:54.529 with you in mind. I love it when you write. 125 00:08:54.669 --> 00:08:56.720 I know. Hold on. Wait. I have a question. Okay. Okay. 126 00:08:57.610 --> 00:09:00.309 Are there mannequins? Nope. There are no mannequins. Okay. There 127 00:09:00.350 --> 00:09:02.929 are no mannequins. Not a single one in sight. Okay. 128 00:09:03.190 --> 00:09:05.090 All right. Not even a single one out of sight. 129 00:09:05.169 --> 00:09:07.450 But I should write one of those soon. I haven't 130 00:09:07.470 --> 00:09:10.759 done that in a long time. You did for a 131 00:09:10.769 --> 00:09:13.779 while have this streak of mannequin stories. I got you 132 00:09:13.820 --> 00:09:15.720 good with the last one. Oh, my God. Oh, I 133 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.620 got you so good with the last one. That was great. 134 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:19.799 You got me really good with a couple of them. 135 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:27.700 That was so great. Um, I've titled this one, The 136 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:33.500 Woman Without a Face. Okay. So here we go. Our 137 00:09:33.539 --> 00:09:37.750 story begins in 1993 with a very simple burglary in Austria. 138 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:43.250 Nothing unusual. Routine burglary and a routine investigation. I don't 139 00:09:43.289 --> 00:09:45.379 know what they burgled. I don't know who they burgled. 140 00:09:45.779 --> 00:09:51.340 They just, somebody burgled somebody. Okay. Investigators took photographs, they 141 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:54.240 dusted for fingerprints, and they swabbed for any DNA that 142 00:09:54.379 --> 00:09:57.049 may have been left behind by the person responsible or 143 00:09:57.110 --> 00:10:00.070 the people responsible for the invasion and theft of of 144 00:10:00.129 --> 00:10:03.669 someone else's belongings that they had no right to take. Okay. Now, 145 00:10:03.730 --> 00:10:06.250 being Austria, they do do things a little bit differently 146 00:10:06.289 --> 00:10:10.840 than we do, but, you know, that's okay. They, everything 147 00:10:10.889 --> 00:10:13.519 I read, you know, they did a super thorough investigation. 148 00:10:14.740 --> 00:10:18.460 They are super thorough investigators. And I'm immediately thinking, they 149 00:10:18.500 --> 00:10:22.960 took DNA. Well, they swab for DNA. Right, right, right. 150 00:10:23.259 --> 00:10:25.860 I'm thinking, you think about how many people come into 151 00:10:25.899 --> 00:10:28.600 your house and how long DNA can stick around for. 152 00:10:28.620 --> 00:10:32.659 That could be a lot of people that you might 153 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:35.360 have to try to eliminate. Well, and the thing is, 154 00:10:35.419 --> 00:10:38.419 like I said, I didn't, like, focus on the burglary itself. 155 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.100 So I don't know if, like, somebody broke into the house, 156 00:10:41.740 --> 00:10:46.019 had a snack, took a shower. Stole some jewelry, stole money, 157 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.759 took a wallet. I don't know. Cut themselves on the glass. Right. 158 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:52.240 I don't know. No, I can go there with you. 159 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:55.639 I'm just thinking, man, if they swabbed every surface that, like, 160 00:10:55.700 --> 00:10:57.840 people would touch coming in and out of your house, 161 00:10:57.899 --> 00:11:00.919 think about that. Well, like, if they, if they, because 162 00:11:00.940 --> 00:11:04.490 we've read about burglars stopping and getting a snack. Oh, yeah. 163 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:06.309 Then if you knew that they had done that, you 164 00:11:06.330 --> 00:11:10.549 would definitely swab for DNA in that kind of circumstance. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. 165 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:13.659 And like you said, if they'd gone through a window 166 00:11:13.700 --> 00:11:16.960 and cut themselves, you would definitely swab for DNA. Yes. 167 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:22.080 But we're still talking 1993, so DNA is pretty, pretty, um, 168 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:27.539 pretty new. Yeah. Still in its infancy. Yeah. After all 169 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:31.159 of the very routine investigating as normal, all they really 170 00:11:31.210 --> 00:11:35.570 came up with is a very, very small amount of DNA. Okay. 171 00:11:35.889 --> 00:11:39.169 Nothing else was found at the scenes. No fingerprints, no 172 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:45.580 shoe prints. Hmm. They had no witnesses. They had no suspects. 173 00:11:46.100 --> 00:11:48.990 All they had was a genetic fingerprint, which is the DNA, 174 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:52.590 and eventually through testing, they would learn that it belonged 175 00:11:52.710 --> 00:11:57.389 to a woman. Oh, that's unusual. I feel like more 176 00:11:57.450 --> 00:12:02.769 burglaries are done by men than women usually. I don't 177 00:12:02.789 --> 00:12:05.799 know if that's an assumption. No. Because I don't know. 178 00:12:05.860 --> 00:12:07.879 It's not something I've ever looked into. And I really, 179 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:10.139 you know, didn't think about checking that out. Right. But 180 00:12:10.179 --> 00:12:13.179 when you read about burglaries. When you think about a burglar, 181 00:12:13.220 --> 00:12:16.039 it's generally a male, too. And when you read about 182 00:12:16.100 --> 00:12:19.840 them more often than not, it's a male. Yeah. Although 183 00:12:19.879 --> 00:12:24.659 sometimes it's couples. Like a pair. Yes. A team. So 184 00:12:25.299 --> 00:12:27.899 they ran it through the multiple databases that they had available. 185 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.340 And they got no hits on this DNA that they had. Right. 186 00:12:33.299 --> 00:12:36.019 So apparently their perpetrator either did not have a criminal 187 00:12:36.059 --> 00:12:40.549 history or simply had never left any DNA behind in 188 00:12:40.889 --> 00:12:45.929 any of their possibly previous crimes. Or whatever they had 189 00:12:46.190 --> 00:12:50.809 done previously had not resulted in their DNA being taken 190 00:12:50.850 --> 00:12:53.580 and put into the database. Could be, yeah, because at 191 00:12:53.659 --> 00:12:56.200 one point in time, they only took DNA for, like, 192 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:02.679 murders or felonies or something super serious. Right. Eventually, um, okay. 193 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:06.090 Little did the investigators know at that time that their 194 00:13:06.129 --> 00:13:11.600 DNA fingerprint would make another appearance. Oh. Or two. Oh. 195 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:18.179 Or three. Oh. Or 40. Wow. Somebody's been a busy girl. Eventually, 196 00:13:18.220 --> 00:13:22.440 the DNA would be given its own moniker. Oh. Which 197 00:13:22.500 --> 00:13:26.419 is a nickname, which is basically just a nickname, but 198 00:13:26.539 --> 00:13:28.759 in the reference we're using it, it's a nickname given 199 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:33.340 to a serial criminal. Okay. Because monikers are actually just nicknames. Yes. 200 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:36.740 But because we do crime, that's how we know it as. 201 00:13:37.700 --> 00:13:42.039 This criminal mastermind would evade authorities for an extremely, extremely 202 00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:45.139 long time and would eventually be tied to at least 203 00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:54.049 40 crimes, including murders, assaults, and break-ins. Oh. Wow. All right. 204 00:13:54.129 --> 00:13:58.740 In 1993, so the same year, this is after the burglary, 205 00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:08.139 A 62-year-old woman, Liselette Schlinger, was murdered in Idar-Oberstein, Germany. Okay. Okay. 206 00:14:08.620 --> 00:14:12.120 So the burglary was in Austria. Now we're in Germany. Gotcha. 207 00:14:12.230 --> 00:14:15.929 Investigations found the unknown woman's DNA at the scene of 208 00:14:15.970 --> 00:14:21.909 the murder on a teacup. Oh. Okay. I know that 209 00:14:22.029 --> 00:14:25.690 Austria and Germany aren't that far apart. And I didn't, like, 210 00:14:25.730 --> 00:14:28.730 check into that. So, you know, teacup. Were they having 211 00:14:28.750 --> 00:14:31.669 tea together? Did they know each other? Right. Or did 212 00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:34.690 she have a snack afterwards? I don't know. Are you 213 00:14:34.710 --> 00:14:36.870 checking to see how far apart they are? Yes, I am. 214 00:14:37.509 --> 00:14:40.049 If I could spell, it would help, though. It's Austria 215 00:14:40.090 --> 00:14:45.620 and Germany. It is, just generically, if you were driving it, 216 00:14:46.879 --> 00:14:50.559 it's a little less than eight hours. Oh, that's not 217 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:53.600 too bad. At whatever their... Right. And it could be 218 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:55.919 less if one's on the very edge of this one 219 00:14:55.980 --> 00:14:57.480 and one's on the very edge of that one. Yes, 220 00:14:57.500 --> 00:15:00.299 because they do actually border each other. Oh, okay. So 221 00:15:00.419 --> 00:15:02.299 I went kind of from the middle of Germany to 222 00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:07.039 the middle of Austria. That's still not that long. Yeah. 223 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.779 So over the next decade, her DNA appeared at scenes 224 00:15:09.860 --> 00:15:14.639 of violent assaults, chaotic attacks. There were home invasions. There 225 00:15:14.659 --> 00:15:17.779 were robberies on the streets. There were break-ins involving weapons. 226 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:23.159 There were break-ins without weapons. There were assaults with multiple perpetrators. 227 00:15:24.379 --> 00:15:28.730 And all of these crimes occurred all over Europe. You 228 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.289 can take a train from Munich to Salzburg, Munich, Germany 229 00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:36.009 to Salzburg, Austria in an hour and a half. So 230 00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:40.200 it's like it really is not a very long distance. Okay. Yeah. 231 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:46.299 Munich to Vienna takes four hours. Okay. So. There are 232 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:50.250 Female perpetrator had no set pattern for her crimes. And, like, 233 00:15:50.330 --> 00:15:53.990 I don't know how long it took the investigators from 234 00:15:54.009 --> 00:15:56.789 different areas to put this together. Right. Like, I don't 235 00:15:56.809 --> 00:15:59.370 know if they actually communicated with each other or they had, 236 00:15:59.870 --> 00:16:03.389 because it's another country or other countries, that they had, like, 237 00:16:03.429 --> 00:16:07.129 a database that everybody put their shit into. Yeah, because, 238 00:16:07.149 --> 00:16:10.090 I mean, like, here we have CODIS. Yes. And I 239 00:16:10.110 --> 00:16:13.220 don't know if CODIS is international. No. But I do 240 00:16:13.259 --> 00:16:17.500 know that Interpol has an international database. That is true. 241 00:16:18.419 --> 00:16:21.399 Their female perpetrator had no set pattern for her crimes. 242 00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:28.860 She seemed to choose random victims at random times. Oh, fantastic. Opportunity, maybe. 243 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.730 Sometimes she worked alone. Sometimes she worked with partners. She 244 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:38.269 committed crimes in different countries. Some crimes were very high-value burglaries. 245 00:16:38.950 --> 00:16:43.730 Others were petty thefts like shoplifting. Or bicycle theft. Interesting. 246 00:16:44.049 --> 00:16:48.049 Small-time break-ins. Investigators began to believe that she was highly 247 00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:52.809 mobile and a highly dangerous offender. Well, she's willing to 248 00:16:52.870 --> 00:16:56.919 murder people. Of course she's highly dangerous. Someone capable of 249 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.159 slipping across borders and leaving absolutely no trace except for 250 00:17:00.179 --> 00:17:04.180 that genetic signature. That DNA. She was given the moniker 251 00:17:04.420 --> 00:17:09.930 the Phantom of Halbron. And she's clearly not... doesn't seem 252 00:17:09.950 --> 00:17:13.069 to be very concerned about leaving DNA. But back then, 253 00:17:13.130 --> 00:17:15.329 I don't know if people really understood so much. No, 254 00:17:15.329 --> 00:17:18.500 I don't think until the early 2000s that it really 255 00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:23.140 started coming out how valuable this tool was for law enforcement. 256 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:27.279 And how easily you could leave your DNA behind. With everything, yeah. 257 00:17:28.420 --> 00:17:31.890 So some people referred to her as the woman without 258 00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:37.089 a face. Okay. And she wasn't even close to being done. 259 00:17:38.019 --> 00:17:40.619 In the 1960s, so we're going to jump backwards. We're 260 00:17:41.259 --> 00:17:44.900 going to go backwards. In the 1960s, a Swiss chemist 261 00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:49.829 by the name of Friedrich Meischer first identified DNA in 262 00:17:49.869 --> 00:17:53.450 his preparations of white blood cells that he had extracted 263 00:17:53.509 --> 00:17:57.990 from the pus in some surgical bandages. Interesting. I didn't 264 00:17:58.029 --> 00:18:04.269 know it was that long ago. Around 1863, Gregor Mendel, 265 00:18:04.869 --> 00:18:08.420 he had some pea plant experiments. And his pea plant 266 00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:12.960 experiments established some of the principles of inheritance of DNA. 267 00:18:13.460 --> 00:18:16.700 How DNA is passed through generations. Which is how they 268 00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:19.579 can deal with albatross and take it backwards. Yes. To 269 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:27.559 identify people. In 1902, Francisca Rojas was the first criminal 270 00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:30.829 to be found guilty using fingerprint evidence when she murdered 271 00:18:30.869 --> 00:18:35.269 her two children. In 1902? Yeah. Wow. Which to me 272 00:18:35.349 --> 00:18:41.859 is very astonishing. In 1912, William Henry Bragg and William 273 00:18:41.900 --> 00:18:46.900 Thomas Bragg, father and son, brought us the X-ray. In 1915, 274 00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:51.380 Thomas Hunt Morgan used fruit flies to establish DNA gene mapping. 275 00:18:51.940 --> 00:18:54.079 But they didn't know it was DNA back then. They 276 00:18:54.099 --> 00:18:56.640 just knew it was gene mapping. Right, yes. I don't 277 00:18:56.660 --> 00:18:58.630 think they called it DNA at that point in time. No, 278 00:18:58.690 --> 00:19:03.009 they probably called it like inherited genes or something. In 1937, 279 00:19:03.009 --> 00:19:06.230 Florence Bell took the first X-rays of DNA. Kind of 280 00:19:06.269 --> 00:19:08.769 ties all together a little bit. But again, they didn't 281 00:19:08.809 --> 00:19:12.170 realize that what they were seeing was DNA. And it 282 00:19:12.210 --> 00:19:14.630 seems that every few years after that, small advances were 283 00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:17.289 being made in the understanding and the usage of DNA 284 00:19:17.309 --> 00:19:20.890 forensics in law enforcement. And it's really in the last, 285 00:19:21.230 --> 00:19:25.190 I would say, 15 years that it's really come to 286 00:19:25.230 --> 00:19:28.869 the forefront. Yeah. Really started to make its mark, leave 287 00:19:28.910 --> 00:19:36.549 its mark. Well, because now they can actually... Yes. So 288 00:19:36.589 --> 00:19:39.890 if they have a really, really, really tiny sample, they 289 00:19:39.930 --> 00:19:41.589 can kind of make... They can copy it. Yeah, I 290 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:43.349 was going to say, for lack of a better word, 291 00:19:43.369 --> 00:19:45.450 they can make photocopies of it. So they can test 292 00:19:45.490 --> 00:19:48.430 it multiple times. Yes. Yes. Because that was a big thing, 293 00:19:48.490 --> 00:19:50.480 is if you had a really teeny tiny sample... sample, 294 00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:54.099 do you test it now? Or, you know, some investigators 295 00:19:54.819 --> 00:19:59.059 made decisions to wait to test it because the sample 296 00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:03.250 would be used up. Yes. 1987 was the first time 297 00:20:03.289 --> 00:20:07.940 that DNA profiling was used to catch a murderer. All right. 298 00:20:07.940 --> 00:20:10.299 1993 was the first time it was used to exonerate 299 00:20:10.339 --> 00:20:16.150 a convicted rapist. Which is also very important. Yes. DNA 300 00:20:16.190 --> 00:20:19.809 has come a very long, long way. I mean, people 301 00:20:19.869 --> 00:20:23.309 think of DNA mostly as you get some from your mom, 302 00:20:23.329 --> 00:20:25.329 you get some from your dad. And it's how you 303 00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:28.769 convict a criminal. But it also is used so many 304 00:20:28.809 --> 00:20:34.569 times to identify unknown victims, you know, who they are 305 00:20:34.650 --> 00:20:37.630 struggling to identify. That is how so many victims have 306 00:20:37.650 --> 00:20:41.049 gotten their name back in the last dozen years. It's amazing. 307 00:20:41.109 --> 00:20:47.130 And so many serial killers have been named and convicted 308 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:49.970 or named and, you know, like they may have passed away, 309 00:20:50.009 --> 00:20:52.990 but at least the families have some types of answers. 310 00:20:53.569 --> 00:20:58.589 So we've never covered this particular serial killer before. Although 311 00:20:58.630 --> 00:21:02.210 I'm sure you've heard of him. The happy face killer? Yeah. 312 00:21:02.630 --> 00:21:05.430 I don't intend to cover him. Well, here's the thing. 313 00:21:06.009 --> 00:21:10.359 He's very controversial. That one is very controversial. They just, 314 00:21:10.539 --> 00:21:15.079 within like the last two weeks, identified his last unknown victim. 315 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:19.390 That is awesome. They were finally able to identify her. 316 00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:25.190 That is fantastic. Through DNA. I love that kind of stuff. Yeah. Um... 317 00:21:25.849 --> 00:21:29.710 Scientists know that each individual has their own unique DNA. 318 00:21:30.210 --> 00:21:37.380 So every human shares 99.9% of the same genetic code. Right. 319 00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:42.339 It's that remaining 0.1% that's different. And the only exception 320 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:47.710 to that is an identical twin. Right. But that being said, 321 00:21:48.309 --> 00:21:51.950 if you go and you get DNA tests done, just 322 00:21:52.009 --> 00:21:55.740 because your siblings... Doesn't mean that you will automatically have 323 00:21:55.779 --> 00:21:59.880 like 50% or, you know what I mean? Like match. 324 00:22:00.579 --> 00:22:02.140 You could have less than that. You could have more 325 00:22:02.180 --> 00:22:06.259 than that. It's all based on what you each got 326 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:11.299 from your mom and what you each got from your dad. Right. 327 00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:15.329 But they know, they can generally tell how close it 328 00:22:15.509 --> 00:22:18.509 is though from the percentage of stuff. Oh yeah. And I, 329 00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:21.890 you know, like I haven't ever dove into that. It 330 00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:23.529 would be kind of cool to learn some of that stuff, 331 00:22:23.549 --> 00:22:25.769 but I didn't dive into that. Well, I know that 332 00:22:25.829 --> 00:22:29.150 you and I matched in like the 40-some percentile, but 333 00:22:29.190 --> 00:22:31.130 they knew that they could tell that we were sisters. 334 00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:35.700 When investigators continued to find the phantom's DNA in various 335 00:22:35.740 --> 00:22:39.500 crime scenes, they knew they were only looking for one perpetrator. 336 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:44.259 They found her DNA on jewelry boxes, cash registers, tools 337 00:22:44.279 --> 00:22:47.309 that had been used to break into homes, stolen items, 338 00:22:47.630 --> 00:22:55.079 car interiors, the teacup. Interesting. Murders, assaults, burglary, small thefts, 339 00:22:55.130 --> 00:22:59.319 large thefts. Her crimes were all over the map. And 340 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:03.380 investigators were having an extremely difficult time profiling her. There 341 00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:07.519 was no rhyme or reason. Right. So do you call 342 00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:11.819 her disorganized? Or do you not? You know, because she's 343 00:23:11.940 --> 00:23:15.220 organized to the point where she's never been caught. And 344 00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:18.029 really there aren't very many witnesses who can describe her. 345 00:23:18.690 --> 00:23:21.890 But she's all over the map with everything. Right. So 346 00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:27.130 she disorganized or is she incredibly clever? Right. They had 347 00:23:27.150 --> 00:23:30.410 never run across a suspected serial killer who also committed 348 00:23:30.470 --> 00:23:35.950 petty theft and other various crimes. And we know from 349 00:23:36.109 --> 00:23:40.089 most of our stories that killers don't do petty theft. 350 00:23:40.690 --> 00:23:44.740 Which almost makes you wonder if this is twins. Is 351 00:23:44.779 --> 00:23:49.170 this triplets? That's a good thought. That is a good thought. 352 00:23:49.930 --> 00:23:52.029 Who are all into crime, but are all into... And 353 00:23:52.049 --> 00:23:55.410 share the same exact DNA. But all are into different 354 00:23:55.670 --> 00:23:59.960 kinds of crimes. Right. Because we know that a petty 355 00:23:59.980 --> 00:24:05.240 burglar doesn't commit murder. Not usually. In fact, investigators across 356 00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:07.880 Europe were baffled. But they knew they were on the 357 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.369 right track because DNA kept pointing to the same woman. 358 00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:14.769 And DNA doesn't lie. And we know that. DNA does 359 00:24:14.910 --> 00:24:19.240 not lie. Right. But there was more. Of course there was. 360 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:24.039 The Phantom of Heilbronn's DNA also appeared in some drug-related investigations. 361 00:24:24.309 --> 00:24:26.910 So let's throw that in there, too. Oh, that's interesting. 362 00:24:26.930 --> 00:24:29.589 Forensic labs all around Europe found her DNA on some 363 00:24:29.609 --> 00:24:34.869 drug packaging, drug containers, drug paraphernalia, and even inside some 364 00:24:34.930 --> 00:24:38.619 vehicles that had been used to transport drugs. Okay, this 365 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:43.200 is really weird now. This suggested to investigators she might 366 00:24:43.240 --> 00:24:46.680 be part of a drug network, maybe a recruiter or handler. 367 00:24:47.210 --> 00:24:49.930 But that doesn't take into account all the rest of 368 00:24:49.950 --> 00:24:53.390 the shit. But again, no witnesses could actually identify her. 369 00:24:53.950 --> 00:24:57.890 No CC cameras ever caught her. No accomplices ever admitted 370 00:24:58.309 --> 00:25:03.410 they worked with her. In March of 2001, 61-year-old antique 371 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:09.079 dealer Joseph Wolzenbach was murdered in Freiburg, Germany. The woman's 372 00:25:09.099 --> 00:25:11.660 DNA was found at the scene on a kitchen drawer 373 00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:17.650 in his kitchen, obviously. October of 2001. I'm not sure 374 00:25:17.670 --> 00:25:19.819 if this is how you pronounce this, but it could 375 00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:23.440 be Huergon. Buehler was found dead in a wooded area 376 00:25:23.819 --> 00:25:28.200 near Gerolstein, Germany. The woman's DNA was found on a 377 00:25:28.259 --> 00:25:32.180 syringe near the body, which contained heroin. Oh. So now 378 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:35.059 you have the drug thing again. Right. But it's also 379 00:25:35.079 --> 00:25:39.559 a murder. The lines are just being crossed. October 24th 380 00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.420 of 2001. Budenheim, Germany. A trailer was forcefully opened during 381 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:48.849 the night. The DNA... was found on a partial cookie. Interesting. 382 00:25:48.890 --> 00:25:53.230 That they recovered from the home. Apparently stopped for a snack. 2004, 383 00:25:53.230 --> 00:25:58.329 Vietnamese gem traders were robbed in Arbois, France. And her 384 00:25:58.369 --> 00:26:00.410 DNA was found on a toy gun that had been 385 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.740 used during the robbery. Wasn't even a real gun. Which 386 00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:06.900 to me makes no sense at all. No, this is 387 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:13.880 very bizarre. In May, on the 6th of 2005, two 388 00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:17.480 brothers got into a fight in Worms, Germany. Investigators found 389 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:19.460 her DNA on a projectile that was used in the 390 00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:22.200 fight by one of the brothers. Okay, something doesn't add 391 00:26:22.269 --> 00:26:25.630 up here. This is bizarre. The whole story is bizarre. 392 00:26:27.230 --> 00:26:31.569 Something's really, really off here. October 3rd of 2006, a 393 00:26:31.730 --> 00:26:33.650 rock was used to smash a window in order to 394 00:26:33.730 --> 00:26:37.839 enter and burgle a home. In Saarbrücken, Germany, a woman's 395 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.720 DNA was found on the rock. All right. March 2007, 396 00:26:42.700 --> 00:26:46.900 an optometry store was broken into. How would you break 397 00:26:46.940 --> 00:26:52.829 into an optometry store? And burgled. What do you steal? 398 00:26:53.809 --> 00:26:59.890 Glasses frames? Contact solution? And that was in Upper Austria. 399 00:27:00.369 --> 00:27:04.769 She wanted the magazines. Her DNA was found inside the store. 400 00:27:05.670 --> 00:27:11.210 In multiple spots. Okay, I have a question. Okay. These 401 00:27:11.250 --> 00:27:15.640 are all different labs using... Like, that are finding the DNA, right? Yes. 402 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.480 Because you've got German, you've got upper Austria, you've got Austria. So, yes, 403 00:27:18.789 --> 00:27:21.990 you have labs all over Europe who are processing this 404 00:27:22.130 --> 00:27:27.609 evidence and finding her DNA. Because my first thought was, well, 405 00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:30.829 not my first thought, but my thought was that maybe 406 00:27:30.869 --> 00:27:34.480 this is cross-contamination from a lab worker. That would make 407 00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:37.160 sense if it was just one lab. That's why I asked. 408 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.009 Because I'm like, this doesn't make any sense. And we're 409 00:27:41.029 --> 00:27:46.130 going to talk about how they process evidence in these 410 00:27:46.190 --> 00:27:50.430 labs and the steps they go through to keep it 411 00:27:50.490 --> 00:27:54.319 sterile and to keep cross-contamination from happening. We're going to 412 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:59.900 cover that. Between 2003 and 2007, there were 20 burglaries 413 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:02.599 and thefts of cars and motorbikes that they found her 414 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:06.900 DNA in. I would almost like to see a map. 415 00:28:08.009 --> 00:28:11.269 With them. Oh, yeah, that would have been good. Yeah, 416 00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:13.230 that would have been good. I didn't think about that. 417 00:28:13.329 --> 00:28:17.309 You know what I mean? So that we could see, like, where... 418 00:28:17.049 --> 00:28:19.890 Are they all in a circle? Like, around this one 419 00:28:19.930 --> 00:28:23.710 central area? Because, you know, like... Yeah, exactly. It's like, 420 00:28:24.230 --> 00:28:27.509 is there one area that's not being hit? I didn't 421 00:28:27.529 --> 00:28:31.859 think about doing that. Yeah, I just... These thefts occurred 422 00:28:31.900 --> 00:28:35.019 in three different locations in Germany and two different locations 423 00:28:35.079 --> 00:28:37.630 in Austria. So maybe a couple in this town and 424 00:28:37.650 --> 00:28:43.230 a couple in this town. Yeah. On August 25th of 2007, 425 00:28:43.230 --> 00:28:47.869 policewoman Michelle Kieswetter and her partner Martin Arnold were shot, 426 00:28:48.390 --> 00:28:51.240 execution style, while they were on duty. Oh, God. They 427 00:28:51.259 --> 00:28:54.759 were sitting in their parked patrol car in Heilbronn, Germany. 428 00:28:55.259 --> 00:29:00.259 Michelle was shot dead. Her partner was critically injured. Both 429 00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:07.019 officers' handcuffs and handguns had been stolen from the scene. Okay, that's, wow. 430 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:12.339 The woman's DNA was found on the vehicle. When investigators 431 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.119 questioned the witnesses, they didn't see a woman. Some of 432 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:19.559 them described a man. Others described multiple attackers. But the 433 00:29:19.579 --> 00:29:23.349 DNA was there, and the DNA doesn't lie. We also 434 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:26.289 know that witnesses are notorious for not seeing what's right 435 00:29:26.309 --> 00:29:29.950 in front of their eyes. Especially in a situation like that. 436 00:29:30.690 --> 00:29:33.509 Eyewitness testimony can be inaccurate up to 75% of the time. Yep. 437 00:29:35.589 --> 00:29:38.279 And that doesn't mean they're lying. It could depend on 438 00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:40.740 how close they were, how much attention they were actually 439 00:29:40.779 --> 00:29:46.369 paying when whatever was occurring was occurring. Right. It could 440 00:29:46.410 --> 00:29:49.269 depend on the stress levels that were involved. It could 441 00:29:49.309 --> 00:29:51.430 depend on how much time elapsed between the time they 442 00:29:51.450 --> 00:29:53.650 saw it and the time they were questioned by investigators. 443 00:29:54.819 --> 00:29:57.299 And in my opinion, I would also think that it 444 00:29:57.339 --> 00:29:59.599 would depend on whether or not they discussed the event 445 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:02.740 with anyone else, I feel like that would be a 446 00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:08.220 key factor in how accurate their statements were. Yeah. Because 447 00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:10.259 if you and I saw the same thing, we'd probably 448 00:30:10.299 --> 00:30:13.240 see different things. We would remember different stuff. But if 449 00:30:13.269 --> 00:30:15.990 we talked about it, and one of us was far 450 00:30:16.049 --> 00:30:18.670 more sure than the other, we would probably both end 451 00:30:18.710 --> 00:30:23.309 up with the same thing. Probably. So I don't think 452 00:30:23.369 --> 00:30:25.529 that witnesses were lying. I don't think they were just 453 00:30:25.589 --> 00:30:28.519 me leading them. I think they saw what they thought 454 00:30:28.539 --> 00:30:32.500 they saw and they were being helpful as best they could. Right. 455 00:30:33.140 --> 00:30:35.160 The attack on the police and the murder of Michelle 456 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:40.500 turned the phantom from a mere criminal curiosity that made 457 00:30:40.660 --> 00:30:45.220 no sense into a national threat for all the investigators. Well, yeah. 458 00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:48.799 She's willing to go after cops that are literally sitting 459 00:30:48.819 --> 00:30:53.059 in their patrol car doing nothing. Right. On January 30th 460 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:58.339 of 2008, three Georgians were murdered. in Heipenheim, Germany. Her 461 00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:00.460 DNA was found on the car that was used to 462 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:03.559 transport their bodies from the scene of the crime. Okay. 463 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:07.380 Her DNA was found in a disused public swimming pool 464 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:10.890 after it was broken into and burgled on March 22nd 465 00:31:11.170 --> 00:31:14.369 of 2008. What do you steal from a disused swimming pool? 466 00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:16.910 I don't know, because I didn't, like, dive into the 467 00:31:16.950 --> 00:31:19.230 circumstances of the fact. Right, I know. I'm just thinking 468 00:31:19.269 --> 00:31:22.670 about this. Stop a minute and think about that. Well, okay, 469 00:31:22.769 --> 00:31:26.619 but how recently was it? Was it very recent so 470 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:31.029 they thought maybe there was still equipment inside? I don't know. Like, 471 00:31:31.170 --> 00:31:33.309 I just don't know. Were they looking for a place 472 00:31:33.529 --> 00:31:37.190 to sleep? Were they looking for a place to count 473 00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:40.569 their spoils and divvy it up? I don't know. Her 474 00:31:40.589 --> 00:31:43.250 DNA was found in four home invasions in three different 475 00:31:43.289 --> 00:31:47.329 cities in Germany in March and April of 2008. Her 476 00:31:47.349 --> 00:31:49.880 DNA was found in an apartment that was broken into 477 00:31:49.910 --> 00:31:53.779 during the night of April 9th, 2008. She's been a 478 00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:58.250 very busy girl. She's all over the fucking place. May 479 00:31:58.269 --> 00:32:01.019 9th of 2008, a woman was robbed in a clubhouse 480 00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:06.059 in Saarholzbach, and her DNA was left behind at that 481 00:32:06.099 --> 00:32:09.319 scene also. I don't exactly know where they found the 482 00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:13.299 DNA there. Okay. At the end of October 2008, and 483 00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:20.089 we're not sure exactly the date, 45-year-old auxiliary nurse Diana 484 00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:25.150 Pavlenko was murdered in her car near Weinsberg, Germany. She 485 00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:27.779 likes to murder people in their cars. And the woman's 486 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:31.279 DNA was found inside the car. Yes. Yes, it does 487 00:32:31.299 --> 00:32:34.079 sound like she likes to murder people inside her cars. 488 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.339 Their cars. One of the strangest parts of the Phantom's 489 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:41.519 supposed criminal career was her list of accomplices. Her DNA 490 00:32:41.579 --> 00:32:48.180 appeared at crime scenes that involved Slovaks, Serbs, Romanians, Albanians, 491 00:32:48.869 --> 00:32:53.640 and Iraqis. Interesting. These individuals, they never found any connection 492 00:32:54.009 --> 00:32:57.890 to any of these individuals to each other. Huh. All 493 00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:01.150 these people had very different backgrounds. They had very different 494 00:33:01.230 --> 00:33:05.890 criminal histories. They seemed to come from different regions. So 495 00:33:05.930 --> 00:33:09.759 the investigators began to imagine her as a mastermind. I mean, 496 00:33:09.819 --> 00:33:12.059 I don't even know what's going through their head. How 497 00:33:12.500 --> 00:33:16.200 do they even figure this woman out? Right. They imagined 498 00:33:16.220 --> 00:33:19.220 her as a shadowy figure that coordinated criminals across Europe. 499 00:33:19.690 --> 00:33:22.690 A female mob boss type who accompanied her gang to 500 00:33:22.730 --> 00:33:25.450 some of the crimes. Many of the crimes. All the crimes. 501 00:33:26.089 --> 00:33:28.630 If this was true, imagine how many of the crime 502 00:33:28.670 --> 00:33:32.009 scenes she wasn't at if she was masterminding. The numbers 503 00:33:32.069 --> 00:33:38.150 could potentially be astronomical. Hmm. But with this scenario, as 504 00:33:38.430 --> 00:33:40.519 well as all the others, there was no evidence of 505 00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:44.160 her leadership. Right. No one saw her. No one could 506 00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:49.220 describe her. And all of these accomplices, they... They've identified 507 00:33:49.299 --> 00:33:51.700 some of them, but they don't. But none of them 508 00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:55.119 fingered her. None of them ratted her out. How crazy 509 00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:59.940 is that? It's insane. It's insane. They also never found 510 00:33:59.960 --> 00:34:03.750 her fingerprints. Which is weird. So she either doesn't have fingerprints, 511 00:34:04.049 --> 00:34:07.029 like she burned them off, or she is really good 512 00:34:07.049 --> 00:34:10.289 at wearing gloves. Which then leaves behind, what kind of 513 00:34:10.610 --> 00:34:13.030 DNA is she leaving behind that they're able to find, 514 00:34:13.090 --> 00:34:15.869 but they're not finding fingerprints? Right. I don't know. Like, 515 00:34:15.889 --> 00:34:17.409 I don't know if it was skin cells. I would 516 00:34:17.449 --> 00:34:20.170 imagine it was skin cells or something. But you know 517 00:34:20.190 --> 00:34:21.909 what I'm saying? But I don't know. I don't know, 518 00:34:21.949 --> 00:34:24.510 because we know some of the places they found them. Right. 519 00:34:24.590 --> 00:34:27.420 You know, cash register drawers, the teacup, lock boxes. Things 520 00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:31.079 that you would touch. That's the thing. Cars. Things that 521 00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:34.679 you would touch. But if they're not finding fingerprints, but 522 00:34:34.699 --> 00:34:39.320 they're finding DNA, that's weird. Almost, yeah, maybe like she 523 00:34:39.340 --> 00:34:43.150 burned her fingerprints off. Interesting. Some people do that, and 524 00:34:43.190 --> 00:34:46.639 I don't know... Like, I don't know how successful it is. 525 00:34:46.829 --> 00:34:51.780 I understand it's really painful, but I don't, like, I've 526 00:34:51.820 --> 00:34:57.940 not deep dove into that. Right. By 2009, her criminal 527 00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:02.010 resume looked pretty impossible. They could connect her to six murders, 528 00:35:02.730 --> 00:35:05.389 more than 40 crimes ranging from petty theft to homicide 529 00:35:05.469 --> 00:35:12.809 across three countries with dozens of unrelated accomplices. So crazy. 530 00:35:13.130 --> 00:35:17.260 No eyewitnesses, no camera footage, and no physical presence except 531 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:20.840 for her DNA, which doesn't lie. Well, and you think, 532 00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:26.769 I mean, even back in 2008, businesses and CCTV camera, yeah, 533 00:35:26.869 --> 00:35:30.170 they were getting more prevalent. Yeah. But I don't know, like, 534 00:35:30.429 --> 00:35:32.809 in Europe, if it was the same, if they took 535 00:35:32.849 --> 00:35:35.880 a little bit longer or a little faster. I don't know. 536 00:35:37.409 --> 00:35:41.349 There was a reward of 300,000 euros offered for clues 537 00:35:41.449 --> 00:35:45.920 regarding the whereabouts of the phantom. Or, again, as some 538 00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:49.460 people called her, the woman without the face. Right. Now, 539 00:35:49.940 --> 00:35:54.239 collecting DNA from a crime scene is painstaking. It's a 540 00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:58.260 laborious procedure. It's not like you see on TV at all. 541 00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.380 They don't just swab it, stick it in a little envelope, 542 00:36:01.460 --> 00:36:03.460 and send it to the lab. It doesn't work that way. 543 00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:07.320 Investigators collect any evidence that they believe may have been 544 00:36:07.340 --> 00:36:11.159 touched or worn by perpetrators involved in a crime. And 545 00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:14.059 the best evidence occurs when a person's DNA is found 546 00:36:14.199 --> 00:36:20.510 where it's not supposed to be. Collection could include underclothes, bedding, 547 00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:31.570 fingernail scrapings, cups, bottles, cigarette butts, toothpicks, toothbrushes, hairbrushes, facial tissues, condoms, tape, ligatures, stamps, envelopes. 548 00:36:32.510 --> 00:36:35.230 And so many other things. Oh, yeah. But, you know, 549 00:36:35.269 --> 00:36:39.710 basically anything you can lick, spit, touch, have your hair 550 00:36:39.769 --> 00:36:45.010 fall on, brush against with your arms. Forensic technicians use 551 00:36:45.130 --> 00:36:50.469 several standard methods to secure biological material for laboratory analysis. So, like, 552 00:36:50.489 --> 00:36:53.059 the detective goes, but they're not usually the one that 553 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:57.599 collects the evidence. No, they have technicians for that. So 554 00:36:57.619 --> 00:37:01.389 when your technician gets there... If it's a dry substance, say, 555 00:37:01.429 --> 00:37:04.650 you know, it's blood and it's on cement, they will 556 00:37:04.710 --> 00:37:08.929 use a sterile blade to carefully dislodge the flakes into 557 00:37:08.969 --> 00:37:14.110 a specialized paper container called a bindle. Okay. When biological 558 00:37:14.170 --> 00:37:18.719 stains are found on porous materials like upholstery, clothing, batting, 559 00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:23.079 forensic investigators will remove a small portion of the fabric 560 00:37:23.500 --> 00:37:27.719 itself to preserve the sample in the original state. Right. Okay. 561 00:37:28.610 --> 00:37:30.760 Now they may use a sterile swab, which is the 562 00:37:30.820 --> 00:37:35.159 most common technique to absorb biological fluids. Or if they 563 00:37:35.179 --> 00:37:37.380 think there's skin cells on a surface, they'll use a 564 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:41.769 swab to do that. Um, and occasionally the swab is 565 00:37:41.829 --> 00:37:45.909 moistened with sterile water for the lifting if necessary. Right. 566 00:37:46.769 --> 00:37:51.170 Now your sterile water is in a container that's sealed. 567 00:37:51.550 --> 00:37:56.469 Your sterile swabs come from a sealed container. Um, And 568 00:37:56.489 --> 00:37:59.909 they're only used once. They're never, ever, ever used. It's 569 00:38:00.230 --> 00:38:02.989 all single use. The last method is to recover the 570 00:38:03.050 --> 00:38:06.099 entire object and transport it to the lab for examination 571 00:38:06.179 --> 00:38:08.900 if the other methods are not feasible. Okay. Take the 572 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:13.519 whole damn thing. Each method of evidence recovery, no matter 573 00:38:13.539 --> 00:38:16.500 which one is chosen, must be collected by a technician 574 00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:21.820 wearing protective gear, such as clean gloves, face masks, contamination suits, 575 00:38:22.570 --> 00:38:27.630 using sterile equipment and new disposal tools for each individual sample. Yes. 576 00:38:28.510 --> 00:38:32.329 They are not allowed to touch, sneeze, or cough near 577 00:38:32.349 --> 00:38:36.110 the evidence while they're collecting. Right. Which makes sense. Yep. 578 00:38:37.989 --> 00:38:42.719 DNA analysts, the people that analyze all this stuff, must 579 00:38:42.760 --> 00:38:46.360 be accredited by a recognized organization, and they must meet 580 00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:50.159 specific educational and training requirements in order to do this job. 581 00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:52.440 You don't just, you know, go in there and take 582 00:38:52.460 --> 00:38:56.059 an eight-hour course and ta-da, now you can do it. What? 583 00:38:56.820 --> 00:39:00.619 They must have a minimum of a bachelor's degree in biology, chemistry, 584 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:05.369 or a forensic science-related area. Yep. In addition, the analyst 585 00:39:05.449 --> 00:39:11.429 must complete a specific number of hours in coursework in biochemistry, genetics, 586 00:39:12.170 --> 00:39:16.860 molecular biology, and population genetics. All of those areas. Yes. 587 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:21.219 While working in a lab, analysts who are actively employed 588 00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:25.800 are also required to meet continuing education requirements. Right. the 589 00:39:25.860 --> 00:39:29.860 evidence testing must occur in a lab with a dedicated 590 00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:35.820 facilities and equipment that meets the FBI's stringent requirements which 591 00:39:35.860 --> 00:39:38.610 makes sense you can't just have a lab anywhere so 592 00:39:38.909 --> 00:39:41.969 breaking it down into a simplified form for those of 593 00:39:42.050 --> 00:39:46.309 us who might be challenged in this area DNA samples 594 00:39:46.369 --> 00:39:50.860 undergo an extraction process, which releases the DNA from the cell, 595 00:39:51.500 --> 00:39:55.440 and then the quantification process, which tells the analyst how 596 00:39:55.480 --> 00:39:58.719 much DNA they have to work with. Next, the sample 597 00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:02.239 is amplified, which is the process of producing multiple copies, 598 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:06.269 which we talked about. The DNA is then separated, and 599 00:40:06.309 --> 00:40:11.230 then it is analyzed, it is interpreted, and then Quality 600 00:40:11.269 --> 00:40:17.289 Assurance reviews the testing reports for any for all technical accuracy. Right. 601 00:40:17.309 --> 00:40:19.869 So it's not like just one person does this. Nope. 602 00:40:20.489 --> 00:40:23.590 All of their work is reviewed by somebody else. The 603 00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:26.480 results can then be entered into CODIS, which will perform 604 00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:29.760 an immediate search and then weekly searches after looking for 605 00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:33.579 matches to the DNA. So with these rules and regulations 606 00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:37.829 and requirements, it's not like just anybody can collect and 607 00:40:37.909 --> 00:40:41.469 analyze the DNA evidence from a crime scene. Right. There's 608 00:40:41.530 --> 00:40:48.199 like so many steps and it's so... Yes. After collection, 609 00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:50.960 it doesn't just go to the lab and get analyzed. 610 00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:55.219 All biological samples are thoroughly air dried at room temperature. 611 00:40:55.820 --> 00:40:58.599 The evidence is then stored in paper bags or envelopes 612 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.809 to prevent accumulation of moisture and the growth of any 613 00:41:02.849 --> 00:41:06.469 bacteria which could destroy the DNA. I did not know 614 00:41:06.530 --> 00:41:08.969 any of that. That actually makes perfect sense. It makes sense. 615 00:41:09.570 --> 00:41:12.110 The samples are then kept in cool, dark environments to 616 00:41:12.150 --> 00:41:15.329 protect them from heat. and any ultraviolet lights which would 617 00:41:15.349 --> 00:41:19.800 break down the molecular structures over time. Also makes sense. 618 00:41:20.500 --> 00:41:23.639 DNA collection is thorough. It has to be. It is 619 00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:27.059 done with the intent of preserving evidence properly so that 620 00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:29.440 the law enforcement can use it to convict criminals once 621 00:41:29.460 --> 00:41:32.219 they're captured and charged. So it's not like any of 622 00:41:32.260 --> 00:41:34.809 these investigators from any of these countries or any of 623 00:41:34.849 --> 00:41:38.389 these towns or counties. I mean, I can't see all 624 00:41:38.409 --> 00:41:41.639 of them being slack. I can't. No, and... Has it 625 00:41:41.659 --> 00:41:45.760 happened where there has been contamination from a lab worker? Yes. 626 00:41:45.820 --> 00:41:47.780 Which is what made me think of it. Yes. But 627 00:41:47.820 --> 00:41:52.369 you're talking so many labs. So many, many, many labs. 628 00:41:52.449 --> 00:41:55.090 And that was why I questioned it because it was like, okay, 629 00:41:55.150 --> 00:41:58.010 so do you have a lab where everything's being done 630 00:41:58.050 --> 00:42:01.070 and you have one worker who's just not doing their 631 00:42:01.090 --> 00:42:04.030 job properly? But if it's so many labs in three 632 00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:07.730 different countries, then clearly that's not the answer. So what 633 00:42:07.769 --> 00:42:10.340 was the problem with all the investigations from the numerous 634 00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:13.579 departments who were chasing this phantom criminal? It was almost 635 00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:16.820 as if she wasn't real, like she didn't really actually exist. 636 00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:20.239 But they knew she did. Right, because of the crimes. 637 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:24.099 They had her DNA. They had her DNA over and 638 00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:27.079 over and over and over again. Why couldn't they find her? 639 00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.739 Why couldn't they get a picture of her? Why couldn't 640 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.159 they get eyewitnesses who agreed on what she even looked like? 641 00:42:32.409 --> 00:42:34.369 Because some of them said she was a man. And 642 00:42:34.409 --> 00:42:37.730 why will the accomplices not figure it out? That's right. 643 00:42:38.489 --> 00:42:40.849 How in the hell can she commit so many crimes 644 00:42:40.929 --> 00:42:44.530 in so many areas and not one single investigator even 645 00:42:44.570 --> 00:42:48.110 knew where to look for her? Because everybody knows the 646 00:42:48.150 --> 00:42:52.960 DNA doesn't lie. If they had it, she was real. Right. 647 00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:58.179 Something wasn't adding up. Yeah. Something is weird here. The 648 00:42:58.199 --> 00:43:01.639 break came in March of 2009. Investigators were trying to 649 00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:07.210 identify a corpse in France. Okay. We're in France now. Jesus. 650 00:43:07.889 --> 00:43:10.050 The burned body of a female corpse had been found 651 00:43:10.110 --> 00:43:14.400 in France. What do you think they found on the body? 652 00:43:15.260 --> 00:43:18.980 Her DNA. They found the woman's DNA. On a burnt body, 653 00:43:19.019 --> 00:43:22.179 which is pretty impressive. Not only did they find it 654 00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.820 on the body, they found it on, and I don't, 655 00:43:25.059 --> 00:43:28.400 like I didn't, again, I didn't deep dive. Okay. I'm 656 00:43:28.420 --> 00:43:31.130 going to assume that this paper was found near the body, 657 00:43:31.449 --> 00:43:34.489 was related to the body. Okay. Okay. They found it 658 00:43:34.610 --> 00:43:38.949 on an asylum seeker's application who was a male. Like 659 00:43:38.989 --> 00:43:42.389 they had applied for asylum in France. Right. But it 660 00:43:42.449 --> 00:43:46.199 was a man who had made the application. This is weird. 661 00:43:46.219 --> 00:43:50.139 They found a woman's DNA there. After 16 long years, 662 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:55.380 investigators started to notice the pattern. Okay. Her DNA appeared 663 00:43:55.480 --> 00:44:00.829 only on evidence collected with a specific type of cotton swab. Oh. 664 00:44:01.769 --> 00:44:05.539 Not on weapons. Not in blood. and fingerprints only on 665 00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:14.199 the swabs from one single female factory worker. Interesting. The 666 00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:19.050 manufacture of crime scene kits involves very specialized assembly, strict 667 00:44:19.329 --> 00:44:22.530 quality control, you would think, and clean room packaging that 668 00:44:22.590 --> 00:44:27.380 ensures forensic tools and collection materials remain sterile and uncontaminated. 669 00:44:27.940 --> 00:44:31.800 To eliminate human contact. That's pretty important. The production of 670 00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:35.760 collection components, like your swabs, your tubes, your vials, is 671 00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:42.099 heavily automated now. Right. Wasn't always, so. Okay. Plasticware is 672 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:46.300 injection molded, cooled, and packaged by machines without any human handling. 673 00:44:46.900 --> 00:44:50.420 So all your vials and all of that stuff, no 674 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:54.300 humans ever touch anymore. Any factory worker who maintains the 675 00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.650 machinery must submit a DNA profile. which is called an 676 00:44:57.710 --> 00:45:03.820 exclusion database, which allows forensic labs to filter out profiles 677 00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:09.460 from factory people if contamination does occur. Okay. This happened 678 00:45:09.500 --> 00:45:14.699 before those rules were in place. Gotcha. Personnel that work 679 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:18.380 in these factories wear heavy personal protective equipment, including full 680 00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.869 body suits, dual layer gloves, and face masks. Components are 681 00:45:22.909 --> 00:45:26.829 assembled and packed in certified clean rooms. Now it says 682 00:45:27.610 --> 00:45:31.289 they're typically ISO class 5 to class 7 environments, which 683 00:45:31.369 --> 00:45:36.409 is an extremely, extremely, extremely clean. Clean rooms use positive 684 00:45:36.510 --> 00:45:38.909 air pressure to ensure that air blows out when the 685 00:45:38.929 --> 00:45:42.699 door is open, preventing outside contaminants from coming in. Once 686 00:45:42.949 --> 00:45:47.380 the components, like your cotton swabs, your tubes, your vials, 687 00:45:47.860 --> 00:45:52.000 are placed in their individual plaster packs, they undergo destructive 688 00:45:52.059 --> 00:46:02.380 sterilization by... Two methods. Okay. They use ethylene oxide gassing. Okay. 689 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:06.230 This gas penetrates through the packaging to disrupt and destroy 690 00:46:06.329 --> 00:46:12.610 any lingering microbial or cellular DNA. Interesting. The components then 691 00:46:12.690 --> 00:46:17.030 go through gamma irradiation, which is used to break down 692 00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:20.860 any potential DNA molecules that are left. They didn't do 693 00:46:20.900 --> 00:46:25.650 that before. That's wild. They used heat before. Right. Because 694 00:46:25.690 --> 00:46:29.250 we know heat kills everything. No, it doesn't. Before a 695 00:46:29.590 --> 00:46:32.110 batch of kits can be released to law enforcement or 696 00:46:32.179 --> 00:46:36.440 forensic labs, random samples are pulled for quality testing. That's 697 00:46:36.460 --> 00:46:41.480 how they do it now. Quality control labs test the 698 00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:48.500 components using highly sensitive quantitative, they're called PCR, and short 699 00:46:48.679 --> 00:46:52.610 tandem repeat analysis, which is the same kind of technology 700 00:46:52.699 --> 00:46:56.139 used by crime labs. The batch is only approved and 701 00:46:56.159 --> 00:47:00.010 labeled as forensic DNA grade if there is zero detectable 702 00:47:00.070 --> 00:47:05.429 human nuclear DNA. They used to use heat. Right. Approved 703 00:47:05.590 --> 00:47:08.789 components are bundled into final kits, which contain gloves and 704 00:47:08.809 --> 00:47:14.719 distilled water, evidence tape, barcode tracking labels, vials, swabs, tubes. 705 00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:19.219 They are sealed in tamper-evident medical-grade barrier pouches, and this 706 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:23.000 guarantees that they remain completely sterile until a detective breaks 707 00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:26.949 the seal at a crime scene. Before 2009, crime scene 708 00:47:27.050 --> 00:47:30.550 kit materials were sanitized by heat, which would kill off 709 00:47:30.730 --> 00:47:35.369 any residual bacteria that may have gotten on the Tufts 710 00:47:35.389 --> 00:47:38.369 kit components. But it didn't break down DNA. They didn't 711 00:47:38.409 --> 00:47:42.550 realize that heat does not kill human DNA. Upon discovery 712 00:47:42.590 --> 00:47:48.480 of the contaminated swabs in 2009, protocols changed and sterilization 713 00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:51.420 of the kits now happens with the ethylene oxide gassing 714 00:47:51.500 --> 00:47:56.440 and the gamma irradiation. Two different steps. Right. So also, 715 00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.920 there was also less automation and more human interaction with 716 00:48:00.980 --> 00:48:05.360 producing the kids than there is today. Okay. Because we 717 00:48:05.429 --> 00:48:08.510 used humans for everything. Right. So you had 16 years 718 00:48:08.550 --> 00:48:11.670 of investigations that was built on a ghost. And the 719 00:48:11.710 --> 00:48:16.630 consequences of that contamination were enormous. It's 16 years of 720 00:48:16.690 --> 00:48:22.599 wasted investigative effort. Yeah. Over 2 million euros wasted. was 721 00:48:22.659 --> 00:48:26.750 spent and wasted. There were more than 16,000 hours of 722 00:48:26.809 --> 00:48:29.570 overtime that were paid on these investigations, not to mention 723 00:48:29.590 --> 00:48:35.110 the regular time. Right. Dozens of real criminals who slipped 724 00:48:35.130 --> 00:48:37.659 through the cracks and were never caught. All of the 725 00:48:37.699 --> 00:48:40.400 families and the victims who never got answers or closure 726 00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:45.739 or peace of mind. That's awful. This case exposed a 727 00:48:45.820 --> 00:48:50.949 critical flaw in forensic science. Sterilization kills bacteria and viruses, 728 00:48:51.010 --> 00:48:54.889 but it does not remove human DNA. Remember that if 729 00:48:54.929 --> 00:48:57.119 we ever commit crime. I will try to keep that 730 00:48:57.139 --> 00:48:59.460 in mind. We can't just bring the hair dryer anymore. 731 00:48:59.699 --> 00:49:03.719 Damn it. We gotta do better. Heat gun? You know what? 732 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.099 I'm thinking maybe we should bring the UV light or something. 733 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:11.530 I don't think the UV light's gonna cut it. So 734 00:49:11.550 --> 00:49:15.309 this revelation led to the creation of ISO 18385, which 735 00:49:15.389 --> 00:49:19.949 is the first international standard designed to prevent... Human DNA contamination. 736 00:49:20.320 --> 00:49:25.519 in forensic consumables, and it changed forensic science forever. Think 737 00:49:25.579 --> 00:49:30.199 about this. A serial killer who never existed reshaped forensic 738 00:49:30.219 --> 00:49:37.670 science worldwide. That's actually really amazing. The real killers of Michelle... 739 00:49:37.909 --> 00:49:42.139 His sweater was accidentally discovered in November of 2011 following 740 00:49:42.619 --> 00:49:46.300 a bank robbery. Good. It was a botched bank robbery. 741 00:49:47.539 --> 00:49:50.000 Her murder and the attempted murder of her partner was 742 00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.619 committed by... I don't know how to say this. It's 743 00:49:52.820 --> 00:49:57.409 U-W-E is how... They're both their first names. U-W-E? Both 744 00:49:57.429 --> 00:49:59.329 of their first names were spelled that way, so we'll 745 00:49:59.349 --> 00:50:05.210 just call them U. I don't know. U-Mundlos and U-Bondhart. U-Bondhart. Interesting. 746 00:50:05.250 --> 00:50:10.170 They were leaders of a neo-Nazi group, Nationalist Socialist Underground. 747 00:50:10.610 --> 00:50:13.570 The NSU had carried out a series of racially motivated 748 00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:20.599 killings between 2000 and 2006, targeting mostly Turkish heritage individuals. 749 00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:25.039 Michelle's murder was the 10th and final confirmed NSU killing. 750 00:50:25.659 --> 00:50:30.190 On November 4th of 2011, Manhart and Mundlos robbed a 751 00:50:30.210 --> 00:50:33.409 bank in the town of Eisenach. Police responded to the 752 00:50:33.429 --> 00:50:36.130 scene rapidly and tracked the two men down to their 753 00:50:36.150 --> 00:50:40.360 getaway mobile home. Realizing they were completely surrounded and trapped 754 00:50:40.389 --> 00:50:42.989 by law enforcement, the two men set fire to the 755 00:50:43.050 --> 00:50:47.179 mobile home, got into their vehicles, and both committed suicide 756 00:50:47.219 --> 00:50:49.780 in order to evade arrest. There was a lot of 757 00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:52.440 evidence inside the mobile home that didn't end up getting 758 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:56.190 burned up. Thank God. When investigators searched the charred remains 759 00:50:56.230 --> 00:50:58.880 of the mobile home, they found both service weapons and 760 00:50:58.909 --> 00:51:01.400 both sets of handcuffs that had been stolen from Michelle 761 00:51:01.460 --> 00:51:06.460 and her critically injured partner. Ugh. And evidence of other stuff. Right. Like, 762 00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:08.659 they found a pair of blue jeans that had Michelle's 763 00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:12.360 blood on it. And they found other evidence, too, for 764 00:51:12.380 --> 00:51:17.329 other crimes. Right. So, that one was definitely solved. Good. Although, 765 00:51:17.369 --> 00:51:21.429 you know, the guys killed themselves. Yeah. But there were 766 00:51:21.469 --> 00:51:26.849 a lot of them that probably were never solved. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Wow. 767 00:51:27.489 --> 00:51:33.090 That's crazy. Yeah. It is. It is. And that DNA 768 00:51:33.110 --> 00:51:35.949 just belonged to a factory worker. I get it, but 769 00:51:35.989 --> 00:51:39.480 it's still mind-boggling. It is. It is. But you figure 770 00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:43.519 if your sterilization process is sterilizing your components, you don't 771 00:51:43.559 --> 00:51:45.659 worry so much about, I'm going to touch it because 772 00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:50.480 everything I might leave on it. Or even if they're 773 00:51:50.500 --> 00:51:54.099 wearing gloves, maybe her skin cells were falling off. I 774 00:51:54.139 --> 00:51:57.380 don't know. Right. I didn't dig deep into that. You know? 775 00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:01.670 You figure heat kills, and they used intense heat. They did. Obviously, 776 00:52:01.690 --> 00:52:06.489 it doesn't kill enough. Yeah. That's crazy. Yep. Never even existed. 777 00:52:07.190 --> 00:52:11.829 Swim and they chased for 16 years. Wow. Yep. But 778 00:52:11.869 --> 00:52:17.639 it definitely makes a lot of things... Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. 779 00:52:17.909 --> 00:52:20.940 It definitely puts things in a whole different perspective. It does. 780 00:52:21.059 --> 00:52:24.900 It makes things... It does. Unfortunately, you know, many, many, 781 00:52:24.940 --> 00:52:29.579 many criminals got away. Murderers got away. Burglars got away. 782 00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:34.300 I wonder how many of those crimes were incidentally solved 783 00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:38.739 later down the road. I mean, because I don't know. 784 00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:41.139 I didn't really find anything. Like, I didn't find a 785 00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:43.539 lot of information. Like, I didn't really find any information 786 00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:46.639 on how many crimes that were attributed to her turned 787 00:52:46.679 --> 00:52:49.300 out being solved. Because it wasn't very many. Yeah, that's 788 00:52:49.389 --> 00:52:54.159 kind of crazy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And can you imagine? I mean, like, 789 00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:57.800 then her DNA ends up in, like, all these databases. 790 00:52:57.880 --> 00:53:02.420 As a criminal. As a criminal. Yeah. But she wasn't 791 00:53:02.460 --> 00:53:04.360 a criminal. Right. Either that or. I think she didn't 792 00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:06.239 try to leave the country and go, you know, like. 793 00:53:06.519 --> 00:53:09.699 Either that or she's the smartest criminal that ever existed. 794 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:13.900 I don't see that. She'll say it. I mean, what 795 00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:17.960 better way to get away with it? It's crazy. It 796 00:53:18.019 --> 00:53:20.360 is pretty crazy. A lot has changed because of this case. 797 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:25.019 It's unfortunate that it came about that way, but... The 798 00:53:25.039 --> 00:53:27.519 changes were good, but yeah, like all the families, all 799 00:53:27.539 --> 00:53:38.179 the victims. Yeah. Who never got any kind of peace, closure, justice... Answers. Answers. Yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 800 00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:43.159 And the poor officers who spent all this time and 801 00:53:43.179 --> 00:53:47.239 this effort and... And they genuinely worked these cases as 802 00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:49.639 hard as they could because that was their job. Yeah. 803 00:53:49.659 --> 00:53:52.570 And you're told by what the lab says. Yeah. You know, 804 00:53:52.610 --> 00:53:54.989 if the lab says that we found her DNA, then 805 00:53:55.050 --> 00:53:58.590 you're looking for this woman because her DNA's been found 806 00:53:58.610 --> 00:54:00.360 at this crime, and, you know, you were going to 807 00:54:00.409 --> 00:54:04.360 catch her. You don't worry about, you know, well, we 808 00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:06.150 have this guy that just got out of jail, and, 809 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:10.159 you know, he was known for assaulting people with bricks 810 00:54:10.219 --> 00:54:14.500 or something. Right. Wow. Yeah. That was a good story. 811 00:54:15.199 --> 00:54:18.360 I kind of enjoyed it. Yeah. Kind of enjoyed watching 812 00:54:18.380 --> 00:54:23.670 you guys. It's very interesting. I wasn't all that far off. No. No, 813 00:54:23.690 --> 00:54:27.780 you weren't. You weren't. But... But you were looking at 814 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:31.090 one lab. Well, that's why I, like, had questioned it, 815 00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:33.420 because I was like, man, how else would that even 816 00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:37.099 be possible? But it makes sense. It does now. Because 817 00:54:37.139 --> 00:54:40.679 your theory, you just, um, you had it in one spot. 818 00:54:41.179 --> 00:54:44.110 You just had it in the wrong spot. Yeah. I 819 00:54:44.150 --> 00:54:47.710 wasn't thinking all the way back down the chain. Right. Right. 820 00:54:47.849 --> 00:54:53.960 Because you assume... You assume... That when the forensic analyst, 821 00:54:54.179 --> 00:54:57.900 you know, opens that package, that everything in there is sterile. Right. 822 00:54:58.139 --> 00:55:01.960 So he's collecting actual evidence. And that's the way it's 823 00:55:01.980 --> 00:55:07.139 supposed to be. So, yes, I, just like the officers, 824 00:55:07.340 --> 00:55:11.750 assumed that it was sterile. Yeah. Yeah, and it was 825 00:55:11.789 --> 00:55:18.559 kind of interesting diving into... How they process these things, 826 00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:22.320 how they go about packaging, how they manufacture them. Like, 827 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:25.219 I dove into all of that stuff, and there's a 828 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:30.000 lot of really cool information there. Right. There really is. Yeah, 829 00:55:30.179 --> 00:55:33.469 very cool. I learned a lot of cool stuff. You know, 830 00:55:33.489 --> 00:55:37.329 I'm really sorry that so much time was wasted, but, 831 00:55:37.949 --> 00:55:39.929 you know, you can't go back and change it. You 832 00:55:39.949 --> 00:55:42.590 just learn from it. Yeah, that's all you can do. 833 00:55:44.449 --> 00:55:47.219 So what else you got for us today? Oh, I 834 00:55:47.260 --> 00:55:53.460 was just thinking about a final thought. Okay. So, our 835 00:55:53.500 --> 00:55:58.019 final thought for today is this. Your life is as 836 00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:02.219 good as your mindset. We have known that for years. 837 00:56:04.340 --> 00:56:06.579 Sometimes it's easy to lose track of that, though. It 838 00:56:06.739 --> 00:56:11.019 absolutely is. You're correct. You are correct. I think that 839 00:56:12.139 --> 00:56:16.469 many people... forget just how blessed they are every single day. 840 00:56:17.230 --> 00:56:21.219 We're all blessed in many different ways. Yes, but I 841 00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:23.139 think that there are a lot of us out there 842 00:56:23.179 --> 00:56:27.440 that forget that. I think we all forget that occasionally, honestly. 843 00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:31.860 Because we are blessed. We're very blessed in many, many, 844 00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:35.989 many ways. Every single day, no matter how hard the 845 00:56:36.030 --> 00:56:39.389 day is, there were blessings in it, even if you 846 00:56:39.409 --> 00:56:43.630 couldn't see them. There were alibis. They're always a blessing. Absolutely. 847 00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:47.079 And we love them. We love all of them. All right. 848 00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:51.219 Happy soon-to-be Labor Day, guys. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's 849 00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:54.050 so close to being upon us. I know. We hope 850 00:56:54.070 --> 00:56:57.670 that you have a happy and safe Labor Day. Yeah, 851 00:56:57.690 --> 00:57:01.070 be safe. If you live in a country where it's 852 00:57:01.170 --> 00:57:03.829 not Labor Day, we still hope that you have a 853 00:57:04.289 --> 00:57:07.940 happy and safe week. Absolutely. We love you all, and 854 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.500 we will talk to you later. Bye. Bye.