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<v Speaker 1>It's Nightside with Dan Ray. I'm easy Boston News Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, ol, thanks a lot, big hour, folks, really

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<v Speaker 2>big hour going on right now here on night Side.

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<v Speaker 2>Gary Tank waiting for Dan Ray. Karen Reader's speaking out

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<v Speaker 2>on ABCTV Channel five locally here in Boston. Beginning at

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<v Speaker 2>nine o'clock. They were airing an interview with her with

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<v Speaker 2>Matt Gutman. So I've been doing a talk show, as

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and watching her and just watching and not

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<v Speaker 2>really be able to do two things at once because

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not that smart. So I'm bringing him some legal

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<v Speaker 2>eagles to help me out. Bill kick Him is with

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<v Speaker 2>us and attorney Robert George to kind of do an

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<v Speaker 2>analysis of what they've seen so far during this special

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<v Speaker 2>here on twenty twenty on ABC and channel five. Gentlemen,

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<v Speaker 2>thanks for joining us here on night Side.

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<v Speaker 3>Glad to be here. You're welcome, Glad to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So Bill, I'm gonna start with you here. Why

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<v Speaker 2>did they decide to hold this because this was recorded

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<v Speaker 2>before the trial, from what I understand, was recorded.

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<v Speaker 4>Before the trial. What I understand also why they decided

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<v Speaker 4>to hold it unclear? You know, I guess a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of people are still scratching their heads as to what's

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<v Speaker 4>going on, and they thought it would be a good draw.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, there was a mistrial. Just if people

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<v Speaker 2>are listening and they need to play catch up. She

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<v Speaker 2>was accused of murdering her boyfriend of police officer General Keef.

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<v Speaker 2>There was a mistrial on three counts. That's going to

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<v Speaker 2>be tried again in January. So we have seen members

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<v Speaker 2>of the O'Keefe family speak out. And I was the brother. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I was wondering if that had something to do with this.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, probably did.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, so the people who think she's guilty,

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<v Speaker 2>the members of the O'Keefe family have spoken out. So

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<v Speaker 2>did she feel she needed a rebuttal? Plus also, they

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<v Speaker 2>made an appeal to have the second degree degree murder

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<v Speaker 2>charge drop. So, you know, Robert our last you I

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<v Speaker 2>should know this. Do you prefer Bob? Robert?

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<v Speaker 3>No? Bob is fine? Bob?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay?

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<v Speaker 3>Fine?

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<v Speaker 2>So Bob. You know, did they feel because they didn't

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<v Speaker 2>get the appeal on the second degree murder and her

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<v Speaker 2>family has spoken, they needed to do something?

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<v Speaker 3>Well? I find it interesting that, you know, Karen Reid

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<v Speaker 3>is so vocal, especially when she didn't testify at her

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<v Speaker 3>you know at her first trial, right that she would

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<v Speaker 3>ever that she would ever lock herself in to a

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<v Speaker 3>version of events, although it's a well known version of

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<v Speaker 3>events that she would ever lock herself in to such

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<v Speaker 3>a public proclamation, you know, of any kind prior to

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<v Speaker 3>a second trial in January. She you know, she's limiting

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<v Speaker 3>herself into what into the different directions she could go

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<v Speaker 3>if she chose to testify at the second trial. I

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<v Speaker 3>guess another thing we should be looking at is this

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<v Speaker 3>is her unsworn statement to the public. You know, she's

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<v Speaker 3>actually testifying. When she didn't testify at the first trial,

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<v Speaker 3>she likely won't testify at the second trial unless something

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<v Speaker 3>different happens. And now she's testifying to the general public,

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<v Speaker 3>which well, you know, I hate to talk about politics,

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<v Speaker 3>but she's trying to fire up her base. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know if firing up her base does are a bit

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<v Speaker 3>of good in the courtroom, especially in Norfolk County where

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<v Speaker 3>we know what happened the first time around. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>she had eight to four hung in the jury room

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<v Speaker 3>for a verdict of guilty on this second indictment. And

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<v Speaker 3>at this point, all I've seen so you know, Gary,

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<v Speaker 3>so far on the special you're talking about is her

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<v Speaker 3>and Alan Jackson speaking to the public. And I don't

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<v Speaker 3>know when it was filmed or when it wasn't filmed,

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<v Speaker 3>but I can tell you this. They're locking themselves into

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<v Speaker 3>a version of events that they very well may have

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to drop the second time around. It appears that

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<v Speaker 3>they did up more than they can chew in the

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<v Speaker 3>first child, when all they have to prove is nothing

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<v Speaker 3>more than a raising reasonable doubt as opposed to prove

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<v Speaker 3>in a very complex and you know, exciting conspiracy theory

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<v Speaker 3>that they don't need to prove to win the case.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Bill, that's a great point, because excuse me, Bob,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a great point, Bob, And I want Bill to

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<v Speaker 2>jump in on that, because yeah, I mean, I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>an attorney, and we talked about this so much that

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<v Speaker 2>in one of the discussions I had it might have

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<v Speaker 2>even been with you, Bill, you know, I said, isn't

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't she just have to prove, Well, she doesn't have

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<v Speaker 2>to prove anything. Doesn't she just have to convince the

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<v Speaker 2>jury that she didn't hit him with the truck. That's it.

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<v Speaker 2>She doesn't have to do this. All this dog and

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<v Speaker 2>pony show about what happened in the house, and to

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<v Speaker 2>me that that hurt her credibility bill where you have

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<v Speaker 2>all these theories that may be true, they may not

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<v Speaker 2>be not. I don't know where there was a fight

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<v Speaker 2>in the house. Who was killed in the house. They

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<v Speaker 2>dragged him from the house, they put them in the

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<v Speaker 2>dry way. All they had to do is say, look,

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<v Speaker 2>she couldn't have killed them with the truck.

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<v Speaker 4>Right in terms of forensics and physics, Yes, because there

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<v Speaker 4>was a lot to raise in terms of the physics

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<v Speaker 4>of the allegations and the forensics particularly you know, the

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<v Speaker 4>lack of injuries to his lower body, which they expected. If,

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<v Speaker 4>as you like, that would have striked someone, right, it

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<v Speaker 4>would have been I think I think it would have

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<v Speaker 4>been better to just try to raise reasonable doubt all

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<v Speaker 4>over rather than trying to prove a specific series of events.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, guys, what you've seen so far, and Bob, you

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<v Speaker 2>just gave me some thoughts built with what you've seen

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<v Speaker 2>on this special and again I've been on the air.

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<v Speaker 2>But basically, her attorney and Karen Reid have spoken, has

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<v Speaker 2>she done herself? Has she helped her cause at all?

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<v Speaker 2>With what she's had to say?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, you know, she's trying the case in the court

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<v Speaker 4>of public opinion and not a court that matters. Really,

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<v Speaker 4>it really doesn't. And I agree with Bob that she's

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<v Speaker 4>limiting her potential theories in this in the retrial by

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<v Speaker 4>being so vocal about it. You know, there's a there's

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<v Speaker 4>an old expression, Darry in the criminal law when you

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<v Speaker 4>try a lot of cases like like I have, you

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<v Speaker 4>don't need a horse the water unless you're going to

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<v Speaker 4>give it the water, you know, And in this particular case,

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<v Speaker 4>her and her attorney, from what I've seen so far,

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<v Speaker 4>are still especially her attorney, I mean the California attorney Jackson.

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<v Speaker 4>He's very clear in arguing that there is a corrupt

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<v Speaker 4>cover up and that there was a murder in the house,

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<v Speaker 4>no matter what the pink lad people got in front

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<v Speaker 4>of the courthouse or whether the billboards that are all

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<v Speaker 4>over the South Shore are saying, that's not something you

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<v Speaker 4>have to prove. It's something that's very difficult to get

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<v Speaker 4>Lily White Jerry out in Norfolk County to swallow. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>back in the day when I was trying a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of cases in Norfolk County and even through today, if

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<v Speaker 4>you went a police officer who was accused of a crime.

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<v Speaker 4>The first place you'd want to try that case is

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<v Speaker 4>in Norfolk County because they do not want to believe

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<v Speaker 4>that their cops are dirty. Now, I understand in this

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<v Speaker 4>case we have some dirty cops. That much is clear,

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<v Speaker 4>But as Bill has said, how much of that is

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<v Speaker 4>important in determining whether or not she backed the car

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<v Speaker 4>to him or did not back the car again if

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<v Speaker 4>the forensics, if the forensics set you free, why would

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<v Speaker 4>you ever try to prove there was a murder in

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<v Speaker 4>a house and that you then took the body and

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<v Speaker 4>threw it on your own front yard and waited for

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<v Speaker 4>you know, waited for the police to arrive, instead of

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<v Speaker 4>taking the body somewhere else and don't forget where the

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<v Speaker 4>world would never see it again. It just is something.

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<v Speaker 3>Then. I think that that particularly jury pool out in

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<v Speaker 3>Norfolk County would have a hard time swallowing. I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>saying I believe it or don't believe it. All I'm

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<v Speaker 3>saying is why would I take that on if I

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<v Speaker 3>don't have to? Right? It doesn't make it. It just doesn't.

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<v Speaker 3>It's too much weight to carry.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean, between the prosecution and the defense, the

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<v Speaker 4>prosecution has the burden of proof here, all the defense

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<v Speaker 4>has to do is raise reasonable doubt. And I agree

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<v Speaker 4>with Bob. I mean, when you take a laser focused

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<v Speaker 4>approach that only one thing happened and try to prove

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<v Speaker 4>that that happened, then the roles between prosecution and defense

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<v Speaker 4>are kind of interposed. I mean, now it's the defense

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<v Speaker 4>trying to prove that one thing happened, right a reasonable doubt?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, but but it's almost like you have two based

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<v Speaker 2>on what you're saying. It's like both parties are prosecutors.

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<v Speaker 2>The state is trying to prosecute her, but her defense returned.

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<v Speaker 2>Are you trying to prosecute the family that own the house?

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<v Speaker 3>The burden the burden improof In any criminal case, as

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<v Speaker 3>anyone knows, everybody knows is on the prosecution. They have

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<v Speaker 3>to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Why would I,

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<v Speaker 3>as a defense lawyer, try to prove any case beyond

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that the conwealth hasn't proven their case beyond

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<v Speaker 3>a reasonable doubt when all I'm trying to do is

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<v Speaker 3>set the woman free. That's all I'm trying to do

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<v Speaker 3>is set the woman free. I'm not trying to make

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<v Speaker 3>my case for my novel. I'm not trying to make

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<v Speaker 3>my case for my Netflix special. I'm not trying to

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<v Speaker 3>make my case so the people up front can cheer

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<v Speaker 3>me on the front steps of the courthouse. I'm trying

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<v Speaker 3>to set Caaron Read free. And believe me when I

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<v Speaker 3>tell you, as she sits here today, she's trying to

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<v Speaker 3>figure out how to pay lawyers for a second trial

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<v Speaker 3>because they didn't win the first row. I maybe do

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<v Speaker 3>no fault of their own it with this particular jury pull.

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<v Speaker 3>But when you try to to demonstrate that this this

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<v Speaker 3>very this very dramatic conspiracy to murder and murder occurred

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<v Speaker 3>in that house, and then you can't prove it, you're

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<v Speaker 3>taking on You're taking on a burden you don't have

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<v Speaker 3>to take on when, as Bill said, you could be

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<v Speaker 3>focused on whether or not the prosecution's proven this case, which,

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<v Speaker 3>by the way, in this case they did not do right.

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<v Speaker 2>They did not do they did You're right, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was the result of the trial any and the defense

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<v Speaker 2>muddied it up. We've guys, We've just getting started. Bill

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<v Speaker 2>Kickham is criminal defense attorney. You can find him online

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<v Speaker 2>at criminal dot kickim legal dot com. Also, you can

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<v Speaker 2>call his office at six one seven two eighty five

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<v Speaker 2>thirty six hundred. He's in Westwood. And then Bob George

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<v Speaker 2>is joining us, also a criminal defense attorney, and his

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<v Speaker 2>phone numbers five aweight seven seven six, twelve twenty and

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<v Speaker 2>he's at George Law dot com sless contact us and

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<v Speaker 2>he's in Lovely Hiatus again. You can find these gentlemen online.

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<v Speaker 2>They're taking time to join us. I have to ask

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<v Speaker 2>you about the personalities because this has become a reality

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<v Speaker 2>TV show. I understand completely what you guys are saying,

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<v Speaker 2>what you gentlemen are saying in regard to what makes

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<v Speaker 2>sense for the logistics of the case, but it's become

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<v Speaker 2>bigger than that. That's next on wbz's night Side.

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<v Speaker 1>Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World

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<v Speaker 1>night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>We're talking about the broadcast the airing of Karen Reads

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<v Speaker 2>the interview on ABC and Channel five locally that started

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<v Speaker 2>at nine o'clock. We understand it's going two hours, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was a little late for us to start at eleven,

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<v Speaker 2>so we decided to get get in on the action

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<v Speaker 2>find out if there was anything different that we learned

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<v Speaker 2>through the airing of the special guys. I want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about the personalities involved. Bill Kickham is joining us

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<v Speaker 2>and Bob George, both criminal defense attorneys, and Bill, I'll

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<v Speaker 2>start with you. She loves this. She is a reality

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<v Speaker 2>body TV star right now.

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<v Speaker 4>She loves this, and that's a There's a dangerous instrument

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<v Speaker 4>in the human condition and it's called the ego, and

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<v Speaker 4>we all have one, and it can be a dangerous

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<v Speaker 4>instrumentality because it's very seductive and it's very appealing, but

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<v Speaker 4>you know, it can work against you in a million

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<v Speaker 4>different ways, and she did. She has become a reality

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<v Speaker 4>star and that is, if not a soap opera star,

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<v Speaker 4>and that is the reality of this. And to resist

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<v Speaker 4>that is it takes a lot of discipline, but she

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<v Speaker 4>has become a cause celeb for both sides. I think

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<v Speaker 4>I think that her team might have coached her to

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<v Speaker 4>contain some of that ego go drawing fascets of the case.

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<v Speaker 2>What do you think, Bob, of her personal.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's just say I'm the you know, let's let's imagine

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<v Speaker 3>me as the m picturer, you know, the one of

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<v Speaker 3>the people that maybe they're trying to reach. I never

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<v Speaker 3>heard Cameron Reid's voice until today. I never saw her

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<v Speaker 3>express herself until today. All I had was her walking

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<v Speaker 3>in and out of court, sitting there in her business suit.

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<v Speaker 3>And let's say I had a favorable impression on that.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's say that the soft picture, the fuzzy picture that

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<v Speaker 3>I was seeing in the court room were appearances. Everything,

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<v Speaker 3>especially when you don't testify, is the most important thing

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<v Speaker 3>at Jerry can see. Well, now that's all gone. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>not saying she's making a bad impression. I'm not saying

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<v Speaker 3>she's making a great impression. I'm all I'm saying is

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<v Speaker 3>the mystery of Karen Read not testifying is now gone.

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<v Speaker 3>So that is a powerful, powerful tool of defense, has

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<v Speaker 3>my understanding? Isn't the second part of the show, which

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<v Speaker 3>we're not watching now, and she talks about how she

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<v Speaker 3>dresses for record, She talks about her sleeve length, she

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<v Speaker 3>talks about what closed she picks for court, and how

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<v Speaker 3>she presents herself. Well, the problem with that is, and

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<v Speaker 3>having done a thousand interviews with cameras, it's hard to

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<v Speaker 3>present yourself in a sympathetic way when the camera is

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<v Speaker 3>heating up your face and melting your makeup and you're

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<v Speaker 3>on TV. Perhaps, like Bill says, for the first time

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<v Speaker 3>in her whole life, and it's just once again, Gary,

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<v Speaker 3>she's taking on more than she has to take on. See,

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<v Speaker 3>what makes this whole show odd is that there is

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<v Speaker 3>a pending retrial in her case. There is no there

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<v Speaker 3>is no final verdict. So for us, whether it's ABC

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<v Speaker 3>or Alan Jackson, Orkaron Reid or whoever trying to get

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<v Speaker 3>glory from or get attention from this show, good or bad,

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<v Speaker 3>it's it's odd because the timing of it is before

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<v Speaker 3>a retrial in January, and if she doesn't want to

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<v Speaker 3>testify in January for whatever reason, perhaps she can't stand

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<v Speaker 3>up on cross examination because he doesn't have the personality

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<v Speaker 3>for it. Perhaps it's a strategic move. You don't want

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<v Speaker 3>to testify for obvious reasons because you don't want to

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<v Speaker 3>once again take on more than you have to take on.

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<v Speaker 3>But that is now gone because she has told the

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<v Speaker 3>story that she has to stick to without fine tuning

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<v Speaker 3>it to the left or to the right or upper down,

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<v Speaker 3>because she's been on national DP which will be played

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<v Speaker 3>in the courtroom. If she ever varies her story one

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<v Speaker 3>eye order from what she's saying on TV tonight, it

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<v Speaker 3>just isn't good strategy. As far as I'm concerned, that's

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<v Speaker 3>just me talking, that's all Bill.

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<v Speaker 2>What if she's telling the truth.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, if she's telling the truth, that's a powerful element.

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<v Speaker 4>But it does I go back to what Bob says,

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<v Speaker 4>it locks her in, right, So.

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<v Speaker 2>Here's my point, just to try to play Devil's advocate

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<v Speaker 2>with it, like I'm trying to think out loud. So

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<v Speaker 2>possibly she testifies the second time around, right, Maybe she does.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe she just does decide to testify. This is the

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<v Speaker 2>warm up act. The strategy could be, Bill, you have

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<v Speaker 2>to keep your testimony the same as what you did

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<v Speaker 2>on television. So they watched the television, they watch the tape.

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<v Speaker 2>She rehearses it, rehearses it. Maybe she's telling the truth.

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<v Speaker 2>So she tells the same story. And it's not a story,

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<v Speaker 2>it's real. I don't know, I'm throwing it out there, but.

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<v Speaker 4>It's basically, she would be retelling the story that her

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<v Speaker 4>attorney's already told.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it different coming from her?

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<v Speaker 4>It had more pinematic impact coming from the defendant herself.

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<v Speaker 4>But she would be subjecting herself to cross examination from

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<v Speaker 4>the prosecutor, which could be withering.

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<v Speaker 3>And not only that, why you know everybody knows that

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<v Speaker 3>the last place a person wants to be in the court, well,

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<v Speaker 3>let alone being in the courthouse is on the witness right.

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<v Speaker 2>The last place, well, Bob, you know, I hear you, Bob,

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<v Speaker 2>but let me she's I don't want to misspeak because

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know her. We're talking, Bob, we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>a unique personality. Maybe she wants to be on the

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<v Speaker 2>stand she I mean guys personally like, I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>how you would feel about defending her, But to me,

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like it would be a nightmare. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>an absolute like, Bob, based on which you're telling me,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think you would defend her. I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>there's enough money in the world for you to take

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<v Speaker 2>this case.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the bottom line is it's a it's a good try,

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<v Speaker 3>it's a great triable case. The second time around, it

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<v Speaker 3>is not as triable as the first time because the

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<v Speaker 3>first time you have the options of going in one

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<v Speaker 3>hundred different directions. Now you're locked in because of transcripts

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<v Speaker 3>and records and tape. You know, you know, transcripts of

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<v Speaker 3>the first trial lock you into what you can do

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<v Speaker 3>in the second trial. But say in the second trial

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<v Speaker 3>you wanted to try it in a much cleaner sense.

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<v Speaker 3>You wanted to just put it in on reasonable doubt,

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<v Speaker 3>which I'm telling you is the way out is the

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<v Speaker 3>way out the front door of the courthouse. I'm telling

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<v Speaker 3>you that's the way.

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<v Speaker 2>And Bill Bill Bill was on early when we talked

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<v Speaker 2>to Bill earlier during the trial, and he said the

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<v Speaker 2>same thing. There's no doubt about it, Bill is And

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<v Speaker 2>what both of you guys answered this, is there anything

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<v Speaker 2>that she did that you guys saw on television to

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<v Speaker 2>night that would help her cause, whether it's her appearance,

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<v Speaker 2>the story she told. She seems to be very confident.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm looking at visual cues because I have the volume down.

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<v Speaker 2>She seems to be somebody who's very confident in her story.

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<v Speaker 2>So Bill, I'll start with you. Did she help her

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<v Speaker 2>cause with what you've seen in public opinion? Because that's

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<v Speaker 2>all that matters in public opinion.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I didn't see the full tape because I was

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<v Speaker 4>a little late getting to the TV. But I don't

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<v Speaker 4>think she lacks in terms of confidence and in terms

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<v Speaker 4>of presentation. I just think that you know, Bob is

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<v Speaker 4>right when he says that she's locked herself in to

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<v Speaker 4>a certain version that she cannot vary at all from

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<v Speaker 4>and that is limiting.

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<v Speaker 2>And I know, I know, go ahead, Bob.

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<v Speaker 3>I noticed some people who, especially to you, Gary, that

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<v Speaker 3>it sounds what Bill and I say, you know that

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<v Speaker 3>someone is locking themselves in that The easy answer is

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<v Speaker 3>to say, oh, if she's locking herself into the truth,

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<v Speaker 3>what difference does it make? The courtroom is is is

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<v Speaker 3>a very difficult place. You know, you're inside the four

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<v Speaker 3>sterile walls of a courtroom trying to convince sixteen people

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<v Speaker 3>sitting in a jury box that you know you're you're

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<v Speaker 3>you're innocent. You know you're that the government has a

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<v Speaker 3>proven its case beyond a reasonable doubt in a place

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<v Speaker 3>that's sterile. It's it's not, it's not, as Bill said,

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<v Speaker 3>in the court of public opinion. That's why all of

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<v Speaker 3>these protesters or supporters outside of the courthouse don't make

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<v Speaker 3>a bit of difference to what happens in the courtroom,

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<v Speaker 3>other other than irritating court officers, sitting jurors, judges, probation officers,

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<v Speaker 3>and witnesses in the courthouse. In other words, it could hurt.

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<v Speaker 3>It could hurt much more than help. That's the trouble.

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<v Speaker 3>Everything we're talking about is as trial lawyers, and whether

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<v Speaker 3>or not, whether she's confident or not, whether or not

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<v Speaker 3>she looks like a million bucks on TV or not,

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<v Speaker 3>whether or not it matters, It doesn't matter in the

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<v Speaker 3>courtroom because in the courtroom, that's where the action is.

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<v Speaker 3>That's where the verdict comes in. And I'm telling you

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<v Speaker 3>that always drama going on outside the courthouse may not

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<v Speaker 3>be helping her. It may make her, it may make

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<v Speaker 3>it may make the defense feel much more confident and

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<v Speaker 3>powerful and give them a mission. But I'm telling you,

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<v Speaker 3>when it comes to what's happening in that courtroom, it

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't matter.

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<v Speaker 4>No, it may as well be a thousand miles away,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, it's if it's you know, a two dozen

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<v Speaker 4>feet away, it doesn't matter. I mean, I noticed the

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<v Speaker 4>passion of these protesters. They if you looked at them

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<v Speaker 4>and you watch them and you listen to them, they

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<v Speaker 4>really believed that their presence there was going to swing

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<v Speaker 4>the juror's verdict. They really believed that they were going

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<v Speaker 4>to make a difference, right. And you know, it would

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<v Speaker 4>be hard to convince them if you took them aside

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<v Speaker 4>and say, you know, you're being here isn't going to

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<v Speaker 4>change things? One way or the other. They probably never

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<v Speaker 4>believed you, but they.

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<v Speaker 3>See as Bill has said it. Bill's right. But the

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<v Speaker 3>thing is what I'm trying to say, what I hope

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<v Speaker 3>the impression I'm conveying is this, there is plenty of

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<v Speaker 3>meat on this bone for beaten. They've beaten the prosecution

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<v Speaker 3>into the ground with text messages, bad cops, bad forensics,

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<v Speaker 3>bad everything. But you could bring all of that in

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<v Speaker 3>just trying your case unreasonable doubt without staying to a jury.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm going to prove to you that the Alberts and

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<v Speaker 3>everyone in that house murdered John O'Keefe and then took

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<v Speaker 3>him down the basement and brought him up the bulkhead

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<v Speaker 3>and threw them out in the front yard for the

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<v Speaker 3>world to find. I mean, why would I take that on,

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<v Speaker 3>even if I believe it, if I could bring it

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<v Speaker 3>in at the trial without biting it off of something

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<v Speaker 3>I'm trying to prove to a jury, even if I

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<v Speaker 3>don't have to prove anything to a jury. They have

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<v Speaker 3>to prove the case, not me, and they have not

401
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<v Speaker 3>proven their case. Who knows if that jury got hung

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<v Speaker 3>up because they didn't believe that the defense hadn't proven

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<v Speaker 3>to them there was a conspiracy.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, there's no doubt. And I know Bill has talked

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<v Speaker 2>about that un an appearance before they mucked it up.

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<v Speaker 2>And I said, and folks, and Bill Kickham is our guest,

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<v Speaker 2>along with Robert George, both the criminal defense attorneys. We

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<v Speaker 2>got more coming up with these guys. I have some

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<v Speaker 2>questions to ask them about the defense attorneys. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you want to reach Bill you can do so at

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<v Speaker 2>criminal dot kickim legal dot com six one seven two

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<v Speaker 2>eighty five thirty six hundred. He's in Westwood. And Bob George,

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<v Speaker 2>criminal defense attorney, he's in Hyannis at five o' eight

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<v Speaker 2>seven seven six twelve twenty and you can reach them

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<v Speaker 2>online at George lawt dot com slash contact us. Desperation

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<v Speaker 2>by the Defense is next on WBZ.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Night Side with Dan on WBZA, Boston's news Radio.

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<v Speaker 2>Well thanks a lot, buddy, Bill kick him. Bob George,

419
00:24:33.839 --> 00:24:36.279
<v Speaker 2>criminal defense Attorney's joining us here on Night's Side, breaking

420
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:39.200
<v Speaker 2>down the first hour of the Karen Reid special. Well,

421
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:42.480
<v Speaker 2>it's really crazy, fellas, with technology now and the way

422
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:46.400
<v Speaker 2>television happens. I just I just had a reality check.

423
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:50.559
<v Speaker 2>We are sitting here talking about a woman who's going

424
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:55.240
<v Speaker 2>on trial and watching her TV show, it is really bonkers.

425
00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:57.359
<v Speaker 2>So Bill, I want to start with you on this.

426
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:02.279
<v Speaker 2>Everything that you've said and what Bob says makes complete sense.

427
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:06.720
<v Speaker 2>So I'm wondering why her defense team does not follow

428
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.759
<v Speaker 2>your thought pattern. Are they desperate? Do they feel because

429
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:14.400
<v Speaker 2>she is being retried that she's going to go to jail?

430
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:18.839
<v Speaker 2>And this is a hail Mary.

431
00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:20.480
<v Speaker 3>Well?

432
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:23.519
<v Speaker 4>Any why did they choose to do what they did

433
00:25:24.279 --> 00:25:30.119
<v Speaker 4>because in any given case, sometimes there's a variety of

434
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:34.799
<v Speaker 4>ways to approach it, and Monday morning quarterbacking is not

435
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.039
<v Speaker 4>something I enjoy doing it. I don't want to do it.

436
00:25:38.240 --> 00:25:42.400
<v Speaker 4>But they made their decisions because they I think largely

437
00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:47.200
<v Speaker 4>they felt that they had enough malignancy to present on

438
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:51.759
<v Speaker 4>the police side and the investigative side and the state

439
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:55.599
<v Speaker 4>police and the local police that they wanted to go

440
00:25:55.839 --> 00:25:59.839
<v Speaker 4>and present that malignancy as as strongly as they could.

441
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:02.400
<v Speaker 4>They felt it was their strongest suit.

442
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.400
<v Speaker 2>So do they think they're going to lose? That's what

443
00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:08.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm wondering. I mean, I listen, I'm asking you guys

444
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:11.880
<v Speaker 2>to speculate, and it's it's almost like we're talking about

445
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.440
<v Speaker 2>a football game, which is a little scary, but I

446
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.759
<v Speaker 2>don't and I know you have to answer in the

447
00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:19.279
<v Speaker 2>best way manner because you're professionals, best way you can

448
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.279
<v Speaker 2>I mean, Bob, That's what I'm wondering. Are they're so

449
00:26:22.400 --> 00:26:24.759
<v Speaker 2>desperate thinking they need to get the court of public

450
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:27.559
<v Speaker 2>opinion in, they need to try to sway this somehow.

451
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:31.039
<v Speaker 2>They need a letter writing I mean an email writing campaign,

452
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:32.920
<v Speaker 2>because they think she's going to go to jail if

453
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.799
<v Speaker 2>they don't do something. Because what everybody has told me,

454
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:38.880
<v Speaker 2>including you, gentlemen, is that the second time around, it's

455
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:40.079
<v Speaker 2>really hard to get off.

456
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:46.680
<v Speaker 3>Well it's because it's because the prosecution has already learned

457
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:50.440
<v Speaker 3>what your defense is. They put they plug the holes. Well,

458
00:26:50.440 --> 00:26:53.839
<v Speaker 3>they you can't plug a hole, as Michael Procter in

459
00:26:53.880 --> 00:26:57.319
<v Speaker 3>this case, you know, you couldn't. You couldn't possibly do it.

460
00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.720
<v Speaker 3>You couldn't cover up the police missed Diggs and that

461
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.279
<v Speaker 3>can't leash mistakes in a million years. But the trouble

462
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.400
<v Speaker 3>is they now know what the defense is.

463
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.680
<v Speaker 2>So I mean, were there really any do you think

464
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:11.799
<v Speaker 2>there were any surprises?

465
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:15.200
<v Speaker 3>Well there may not have been surprises, but now that

466
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:19.680
<v Speaker 3>they've hurt the defenses, right, they will plug those holes.

467
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:23.920
<v Speaker 3>Unless they're dumb. But now you've got a television special

468
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.200
<v Speaker 3>they had that further experience that further exposes and explains

469
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:31.720
<v Speaker 3>the defense that they'll try to plug those holes. But

470
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.640
<v Speaker 3>as far as your question Gary about why people don't

471
00:27:35.920 --> 00:27:38.559
<v Speaker 3>do these kinds of things, you know, the Code of

472
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:42.440
<v Speaker 3>Ethics in Massachusetts says that you can't try the case

473
00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:44.799
<v Speaker 3>of in the court of public opinion, and the local

474
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:50.000
<v Speaker 3>rules for the federal court actually prohibited. And because we

475
00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:52.599
<v Speaker 3>don't know when this was filmed, I just want to

476
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:57.240
<v Speaker 3>say one thing. I only saw Alan Jackson, uh, you know,

477
00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:01.400
<v Speaker 3>in the first half of this this uh, and he's

478
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:05.359
<v Speaker 3>the one barking, you know, barking about the police conspiracy

479
00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.759
<v Speaker 3>and the murder in the house. So we don't know

480
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:12.640
<v Speaker 3>what what the you know, whether the David and Ettie

481
00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:15.720
<v Speaker 3>is involved in this, which I don't believe he is,

482
00:28:16.039 --> 00:28:18.200
<v Speaker 3>at least not what I saw on the first you

483
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:20.319
<v Speaker 3>know before I it.

484
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Seems to the LA guys the lead dog in this race.

485
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.440
<v Speaker 3>And here's the problem. You've got a guy who you know,

486
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:29.599
<v Speaker 3>who's been involved in Harvey Weinstein's case, who's involved in

487
00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:32.680
<v Speaker 3>Still Spector's case, who's involved in all these other high

488
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:35.920
<v Speaker 3>profile cases that we've heard about. But the trouble is,

489
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.279
<v Speaker 3>he's doing his interview from la He's doing his interview

490
00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:41.839
<v Speaker 3>from Hollywood. He's not sitting out and get him and

491
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.240
<v Speaker 3>doing his interview. He's not sending in downtown Boston where

492
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:49.680
<v Speaker 3>you know where people are going to judge her in January.

493
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.799
<v Speaker 3>You know, these these claims are being made from a

494
00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:57.240
<v Speaker 3>skyscraper in Beverly Hills. So the problem is the problem is,

495
00:28:57.279 --> 00:29:00.000
<v Speaker 3>and the problem is going to be that she needs

496
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:03.039
<v Speaker 3>to get a fair trial the second time around, and

497
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.079
<v Speaker 3>if the case is tried clean and sharp, without all

498
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.559
<v Speaker 3>the side tracking, she could very well get on with

499
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:12.960
<v Speaker 3>her life and put this behind her. But the thing

500
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.640
<v Speaker 3>we're forgetting is if she gets convicted of the motor vehicle,

501
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:19.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, a homicide aspect of the case, she's looking

502
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:23.240
<v Speaker 3>at a one year minimum mandatory, So she's going to jail.

503
00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.519
<v Speaker 3>And all of this I don't believe. I don't know.

504
00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:31.559
<v Speaker 3>I don't think it's being done in any way to

505
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:34.480
<v Speaker 3>feather their own nest. I don't know if there's any

506
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:37.599
<v Speaker 3>strategy behind it or anything. All I know is, in

507
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.839
<v Speaker 3>my opinion, in my opinion, she hasn't hurt herself at all.

508
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:44.079
<v Speaker 3>But I don't know if it helps, That's all I'm saying.

509
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:46.000
<v Speaker 3>And I don't think it does help. I don't think

510
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:47.279
<v Speaker 3>it hurts. I don't think it helps.

511
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:52.160
<v Speaker 2>Don do you see this as a as a desperate move?

512
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:56.359
<v Speaker 2>I mean, bills? Do you have any further comment on that?

513
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:02.839
<v Speaker 4>Well, whether or not to deserate moves largely turns on

514
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:06.000
<v Speaker 4>whether or not that they influenced when it was going

515
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.720
<v Speaker 4>to be broadcast. You know, I don't know that her

516
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:14.599
<v Speaker 4>defense team targeted this day or targeted this time. I

517
00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:18.720
<v Speaker 4>don't know from what I understand, generally speaking, this was

518
00:30:18.759 --> 00:30:21.200
<v Speaker 4>filmed at least two months ago.

519
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.759
<v Speaker 2>Oh, this was before the trial, right, So I think

520
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:27.440
<v Speaker 2>that the deal that they made with ABC was we

521
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.440
<v Speaker 2>will determine when it can be aired, because I think

522
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:33.480
<v Speaker 2>that's what the attorney wanted to do. He wanted to

523
00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:36.920
<v Speaker 2>keep this as a chip in his pocket, you know.

524
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:40.039
<v Speaker 2>He wanted when do I need to play this? And

525
00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:42.759
<v Speaker 2>maybe they've and obviously they felt that they needed to

526
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:46.480
<v Speaker 2>play this. Now. Is there any way that this affects

527
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.240
<v Speaker 2>the jury? And I know that the Bobbers talked about

528
00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:53.000
<v Speaker 2>this bill, but what about because everybody's going to see this?

529
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:56.319
<v Speaker 2>That's another thing. I mean, there's no way members of

530
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:01.200
<v Speaker 2>the jury are gonna they're going to see it. So yeah,

531
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean they're going to see it. So because of

532
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:07.119
<v Speaker 2>what happened, what happened, because of what happened with the mistrial,

533
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:09.839
<v Speaker 2>does the defense team say, well, we've got to put

534
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:12.279
<v Speaker 2>this out there, We've got to try to sell the

535
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:14.240
<v Speaker 2>jury before it's even selected.

536
00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:18.079
<v Speaker 4>I don't know that that's going to help much.

537
00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:23.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Jerry, the jury is going to be asked, the

538
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:25.920
<v Speaker 3>jury pooll is going to be asked at the second

539
00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:29.359
<v Speaker 3>you know, at the second sitting, whether or not they've

540
00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:34.319
<v Speaker 3>seen this. They won't mention this specifically, and unless they

541
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:37.519
<v Speaker 3>in less then they lie, which, by the way, you know,

542
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:38.880
<v Speaker 3>let's not be stupid.

543
00:31:39.079 --> 00:31:41.480
<v Speaker 4>You know, people lie, They're going to people are gonna lie.

544
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:42.759
<v Speaker 2>They're gonna lie.

545
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:46.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, But the thing is, if they've seen it and

546
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:49.599
<v Speaker 3>it's affected their opinion, they're supposed to they're supposed to reveal.

547
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.039
<v Speaker 3>But I know that, I know, I know. But the

548
00:31:53.079 --> 00:31:56.440
<v Speaker 3>first time around, it seems like they picked the jury

549
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.400
<v Speaker 3>that was able to, you know, to be able to

550
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:02.119
<v Speaker 3>shell all that stuff out, able to keep all that

551
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:04.359
<v Speaker 3>stuff out of the jury room because they went in

552
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:07.599
<v Speaker 3>there and they deliberated, and they came back, and no

553
00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:10.200
<v Speaker 3>matter whether you believe what's been going on in the

554
00:32:10.279 --> 00:32:13.119
<v Speaker 3>post trial stuff or not, it seems like they were

555
00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.319
<v Speaker 3>able to filter out all of the screaming and yelling

556
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.160
<v Speaker 3>in front of the courthouse and everything that was on

557
00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:20.720
<v Speaker 3>the news every night, and all the opinions that were

558
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.400
<v Speaker 3>all over the internet, and Turtle Boy and the rest

559
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:27.440
<v Speaker 3>of their crew outside. They were able to come to

560
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.119
<v Speaker 3>a decision, well sorry, come to an indecision in the case,

561
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:33.640
<v Speaker 3>and able to keep all of that stuff out of

562
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:37.440
<v Speaker 3>their deliberation room. It seems that that's what happened, because

563
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.400
<v Speaker 3>if it hadn't happened, they would have marched about the

564
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.160
<v Speaker 3>door in ten minutes. Were not guilties.

565
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.000
<v Speaker 2>We got a final segment coming up, guys, I have

566
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.119
<v Speaker 2>some final questions on one lies ahead coming up next again.

567
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:51.440
<v Speaker 2>Criminal defense attorneys have been kind enough to join us

568
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:54.160
<v Speaker 2>and Bill kick Him and Bob George. You can reach

569
00:32:54.200 --> 00:32:56.759
<v Speaker 2>Bell at six seven eight five thirty six hundred in

570
00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Westwood and at criminal dot Keekeimleegal dot com and Bob

571
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:04.640
<v Speaker 2>at five oweight seven seven six twelve twenty again at

572
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:09.359
<v Speaker 2>George Law dot com, slash contact us final segments, So

573
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.119
<v Speaker 2>final questions for our attorneys coming up on WBZ.

574
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.680
<v Speaker 1>Now Back to Dan ray Line from the Window World

575
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:18.920
<v Speaker 1>night Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.

576
00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.279
<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to night Side talking about the Karen retronel

577
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:26.279
<v Speaker 2>and the appearance on ABC tonight, Bill kick Him and

578
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:29.200
<v Speaker 2>Bob George criminal defense attorneys, guys, thank you so much

579
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:32.519
<v Speaker 2>for your time here insight. It's been great. So what

580
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.160
<v Speaker 2>about as we stand right now? And Bill also, you

581
00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.599
<v Speaker 2>were you surprised that they weren't able to get rid

582
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.359
<v Speaker 2>of the second degree murder charge?

583
00:33:42.440 --> 00:33:42.839
<v Speaker 3>I was.

584
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:46.359
<v Speaker 4>I thought there would be some interest in finding some

585
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:52.279
<v Speaker 4>that negotiated posture, but it seems as though Norfolk DA

586
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:56.079
<v Speaker 4>is just you know, inflexible on this and they're just

587
00:33:56.119 --> 00:33:57.720
<v Speaker 4>going to do They're going to retry the whole thing.

588
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:00.079
<v Speaker 2>What did you think about that, Bob.

589
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.160
<v Speaker 3>Haven't been involved in you know, post trial inquiries into

590
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.800
<v Speaker 3>into juries and you know, and deliberations when you get

591
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:13.400
<v Speaker 3>contact from jurors. I wasn't surprised, only because the jurors

592
00:34:13.480 --> 00:34:18.280
<v Speaker 3>themselves didn't come forward and weren't prepared to come in

593
00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:23.400
<v Speaker 3>with affidavits and testify front and judge. Canone you know

594
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:28.199
<v Speaker 3>as to what happened. Had they had those jurors you know,

595
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 3>offered to do that, the four or five jurors that

596
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.639
<v Speaker 3>you know that the defense had spoken to, perhaps they

597
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:37.199
<v Speaker 3>would have been in a better position to come into

598
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:40.000
<v Speaker 3>court and have a hearing where jurors will put on

599
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:43.880
<v Speaker 3>the witness stand and examined. But when jurors are second

600
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:47.199
<v Speaker 3>and third hand hearsay, you know when you're getting information

601
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:52.000
<v Speaker 3>second and third end yearsay. Most judges, if not all judges,

602
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.519
<v Speaker 3>are not going to stick their fingers into the jury

603
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:59.119
<v Speaker 3>room and try to interfere in deliberations. So I agree

604
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:02.039
<v Speaker 3>with Bill that if the prosecution wanted to have a

605
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:06.320
<v Speaker 3>stronger case second time around, without all the white noise

606
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:10.039
<v Speaker 3>of the extra charges. Because Karen Reid has been overcharged,

607
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:13.280
<v Speaker 3>everybody knows that. You don't need to go to law

608
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:16.039
<v Speaker 3>school to know that she shouldn't be charged with murder

609
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:19.400
<v Speaker 3>in this case. But the bottom line is because he's

610
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:22.280
<v Speaker 3>dug because they've dug their heels in out of Norfolk

611
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:26.639
<v Speaker 3>County and won't admit that they've overcharged. You're about to

612
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:28.519
<v Speaker 3>see this that's occur all over again.

613
00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:31.559
<v Speaker 2>If she is convicted of second degree murder and you

614
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.639
<v Speaker 2>gentlemen have said she's being overcharged. Well, I'll ask you,

615
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:38.840
<v Speaker 2>does make Does that create a better opportunity for an appeal?

616
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:43.480
<v Speaker 4>Theoretically?

617
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.480
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if it does them much good practically, right,

618
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:49.679
<v Speaker 3>what do you think about it? You know it absolutely,

619
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:52.679
<v Speaker 3>you know it creates a group for an appeal. But

620
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:56.159
<v Speaker 3>who wants to do an appeal while you're riding in

621
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.119
<v Speaker 3>a cell out at the Woman's President at Framingham, you know,

622
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:01.519
<v Speaker 3>waiting for your lower try to get you out. That's

623
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.559
<v Speaker 3>the danger of all of this. You're talking about life

624
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.920
<v Speaker 3>with the possibility parole. We're on second degree in Massachusetts,

625
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:14.159
<v Speaker 3>you do twenty three years. I mean, like I told you,

626
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:17.079
<v Speaker 3>as I told you before, conviction on a motor vehicle

627
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:20.960
<v Speaker 3>homicide count, even with the alcohol involves, is a one

628
00:36:21.000 --> 00:36:24.480
<v Speaker 3>year minimum mandatory in a house of correction somewhere, which

629
00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:28.199
<v Speaker 3>is basically like day camp compared to going to the

630
00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:32.440
<v Speaker 3>Woman's prison Framingham. So the bottom line is you're not

631
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:36.119
<v Speaker 3>supposed to overcharge people. You're supposed to charge people what

632
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:40.119
<v Speaker 3>you know. You honestly believe you could prove. They already

633
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:43.599
<v Speaker 3>know they can't prove second degree. They already know it.

634
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.880
<v Speaker 3>You know, they don't need to have it, have it

635
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:51.239
<v Speaker 3>happened all over again, and by charging her with second

636
00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:54.119
<v Speaker 3>degree they may have cost themselves with the conviction for

637
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:57.320
<v Speaker 3>motivehicle homicide. So the smart thing to do would be

638
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.559
<v Speaker 3>to just proceed under lesser charge. But they can't admit

639
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:02.920
<v Speaker 3>they're wrong. It's just like they woulded they were wrong

640
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:05.599
<v Speaker 3>about all the police misconduct of the case. They're not

641
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:06.840
<v Speaker 3>going to omit they're wrong now.

642
00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.760
<v Speaker 2>And Bill, what about the fact that Brian Albert is

643
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:15.239
<v Speaker 2>the former homeowner? Now? And you and I discussed this before,

644
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:17.159
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if this re enters into the

645
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:22.719
<v Speaker 2>case again, but the receiling of the basement floor moving

646
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:26.199
<v Speaker 2>from the home just sort of attempting to push all

647
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:29.679
<v Speaker 2>of this aside very conveniently. Does that enter into the

648
00:37:29.679 --> 00:37:32.599
<v Speaker 2>picture again at all?

649
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:36.800
<v Speaker 4>It may, but then again I don't know it does.

650
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:40.719
<v Speaker 4>It's helpful on the issue of reasonable doubt, right.

651
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Bob, do you have any thoughts on that.

652
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.280
<v Speaker 3>I can tell you the smartest thing the Elberts ever

653
00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:51.320
<v Speaker 3>did was move out of town. But the trouble is,

654
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.599
<v Speaker 3>with the Feds looking at the case, it won't make

655
00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:55.199
<v Speaker 3>a bit of difference if they want to do some

656
00:37:55.320 --> 00:37:58.880
<v Speaker 3>damage here. So I mean, the bottom line is, it's

657
00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:02.920
<v Speaker 3>all white noise. Gary, It's all white noise. We're talking

658
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:06.079
<v Speaker 3>about something that the jury didn't hear a word about

659
00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:08.559
<v Speaker 3>and won't hear a word about the second time around.

660
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.159
<v Speaker 2>Guys, do any final comments as we wrap it up?

661
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:14.199
<v Speaker 2>And I really appreciate your time, Bill, do you have

662
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:17.480
<v Speaker 2>any final thoughts?

663
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:20.840
<v Speaker 4>You know, a sequel and it's going to be a

664
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:24.480
<v Speaker 4>television sequel, and it's going to be a soap opera sequel,

665
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:28.159
<v Speaker 4>and it's going to continue to fascinate and grab the

666
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:32.039
<v Speaker 4>public's attention in about another four months or five months.

667
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:35.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you seem to be disgusted with the whole thing.

668
00:38:35.159 --> 00:38:36.880
<v Speaker 2>Are you as a legal professional?

669
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:41.280
<v Speaker 4>Well, I think it's just become a cause celeb and

670
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:45.440
<v Speaker 4>it needs to be more an issue of jurisprudence and

671
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:47.760
<v Speaker 4>less an issue of drama.

672
00:38:48.400 --> 00:38:51.199
<v Speaker 3>And I think it's basically a motor vehicle homicide case

673
00:38:51.239 --> 00:38:53.679
<v Speaker 3>that's gone ay what you know, and in other words,

674
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:58.519
<v Speaker 3>it's a roottine case that's gone insanely haywire because of

675
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:02.159
<v Speaker 3>everything we've been talking about and everything we've seen that's

676
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:04.960
<v Speaker 3>been going on from the beginning, most of which is

677
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.719
<v Speaker 3>occurring outside of the courthouse. And I can tell you

678
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:10.960
<v Speaker 3>now that the people in that courthouse, and I don't

679
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.039
<v Speaker 3>know this personally, but the people in that court so

680
00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:16.519
<v Speaker 3>I've been in that courthouse for fifty years. I could

681
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:19.760
<v Speaker 3>tell you now the people in that courthouse don't appreciate

682
00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:22.960
<v Speaker 3>the kind of attention, whether for good or for bad,

683
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.920
<v Speaker 3>that's going on out there. And I just think it

684
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:30.480
<v Speaker 3>could have been a straightforward case. I think she'd be

685
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:33.880
<v Speaker 3>home now with are not guilty on a straight motoracle homicide?

686
00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:38.320
<v Speaker 3>And instead what you've got is, you know, Netflix specials

687
00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:42.079
<v Speaker 3>and and ongoing attention for a case that should have

688
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:45.480
<v Speaker 3>just been routinely handled in the criminal justice system the

689
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:47.360
<v Speaker 3>same way I would want and handled for you, me

690
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:48.239
<v Speaker 3>or anyone else.

691
00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:51.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, maybe if there's a movie somebody will play you

692
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.599
<v Speaker 2>guys as commentators on the radio. How about that?

693
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:57.039
<v Speaker 3>Maybe Aben in Costellos.

694
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:01.079
<v Speaker 2>You guys have been great, and Bill's been on before.

695
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:03.960
<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate your time. Bob has been great talking

696
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.199
<v Speaker 2>to you, gentlemen. Take care and have a good night.

697
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:09.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh thank you, right, take care, Bob?

698
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:13.440
<v Speaker 2>All right? Bill? Kick him check him out criminal dot

699
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:16.119
<v Speaker 2>kickimlegal dot com six one seven two eight five thirty

700
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:20.320
<v Speaker 2>six hundred. He's in Westwood and Robert George Bob George

701
00:40:20.360 --> 00:40:23.320
<v Speaker 2>is five O eight seven seven six twelve twenty George

702
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.800
<v Speaker 2>law dot com contact us and he is located in Hyennas.

703
00:40:28.360 --> 00:40:30.280
<v Speaker 2>I want to get your phone calls next on this

704
00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:33.360
<v Speaker 2>at six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty. Did

705
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:35.320
<v Speaker 2>you watch the whole special? We were only able to

706
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:37.440
<v Speaker 2>watch the first hour. I wanted to get some attorneys

707
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:41.440
<v Speaker 2>in here and start talking about this. It just it is.

708
00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:44.320
<v Speaker 2>It's a soap opera. It's a made for TV special,

709
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:50.599
<v Speaker 2>It really is. It's it's gone crazy, and I agree

710
00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:53.440
<v Speaker 2>with Bill. Bill from the beginning has said all they

711
00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:56.480
<v Speaker 2>needed to do is say prove it. They didn't have

712
00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:00.239
<v Speaker 2>to bring in Was he killed in the basement? And I,

713
00:41:00.239 --> 00:41:02.679
<v Speaker 2>I'm such a sucker. I buy into that stuff. I

714
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:07.920
<v Speaker 2>still wonder, you know, was Officer O'Keefe. Was there a

715
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:10.079
<v Speaker 2>fight in the basement? Did he fall and hit his head?

716
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:13.559
<v Speaker 2>Was he dragged outside? Why was he outside? You know,

717
00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:16.639
<v Speaker 2>without a coat. All of those things come into play.

718
00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:21.360
<v Speaker 2>I've seen too many csis and gimitting a homicide, life

719
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:23.599
<v Speaker 2>on the streets, and law and orders, and I buy

720
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:26.719
<v Speaker 2>into all that crap. What do you guys think, did

721
00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:30.000
<v Speaker 2>you watch the television show tonight? Did you learn anything?

722
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:33.519
<v Speaker 2>Do you like her more or less? Did she become

723
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:37.519
<v Speaker 2>more likable tonight on television? I think she presents herself

724
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:41.880
<v Speaker 2>very well on television. I think she does. She could

725
00:41:41.880 --> 00:41:46.000
<v Speaker 2>be guilty of overexposure. I'd like to know why they

726
00:41:46.039 --> 00:41:49.119
<v Speaker 2>decided to do it now. To me, it's a desperate

727
00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:54.119
<v Speaker 2>move because they could have aired this prior to the trial.

728
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:57.079
<v Speaker 2>I think they feel they could get convicted the second

729
00:41:57.079 --> 00:41:59.800
<v Speaker 2>time around, so now they're pulling out all the stops.

730
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:05.199
<v Speaker 2>That's what I think. But what the hell do I know?

731
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty the telephone

732
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:10.920
<v Speaker 2>number your calls on this next on w b Z