Speaker 1: What's going on. Thank you so much for listening to
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to your smartphone or tablet. And again, thank you so
much for your support. Talking about the quote unquote woke right,
I don't know another name for it. It's the name
that James Lindsay I think branded this particular strain, and
there isn't another name for it, so that's what I'm using.
I know people bristle at this idea. I've seen it
conflated with national national Christian or Christian national sorry Christian nationalism.
But I don't know if it precisely maps. There's a
lot about all of this stuff that I don't know.
All I know is that I have been seeing I
shouldn't say all I know. What I do know is
that I have been seeing these little brush fire skirmishes,
if you will, around the right wing media landscape for
about a year or two, and it's now become it's
now become a brush fire. It's now like it's taking off.
The fire is out of control, and people are being
pressured to sort of take sides and say where they
are on this strain that people are trying to identify
and label, and James Lindsay and I went over who
these people are, So I'm not going to go back
over all that. If you want the backgrounds, listen to
the last hour on the podcast. But James Lindsay from
New Discourses, he's the one who came up with this term,
or at least it's attributed to him, and he calls
them the woke right because they are exhibiting all of
the same tactics and the same sorts of underlying philosophies
as the left right. This victimization, this oppression, the blaming
of one group of people for all of the problems.
And I think that that is why you have this
growth in this quote woke right strain occurring after the
October seventh attacks. And part of it is also wrapped
up in the notion that we don't trust any of
the institutions any longer to tell us the truth. So
when people come forward and they say, this is really
why it's happening, and people want to try to make
sense of the unknown and chaos, and so they then
start following some of these people, some of these quote
unquote influencers in the podcast world, and some of these
people have built very large followings, and they have now
turned those platforms that they have built into platforms that
either flirt with or outright foment anti Jew bigotry. That's
how I see it. You may have a different opinion,
and I'm not talking about questioning Israel. This is one
of the rhetorical slights of hand that a lot of
anti Semites will use. And if you criticize Israel, I
don't automatically think you're anti Semitic. I think you're anti
Jew if you just say I don't like what Israel's
doing this and that. However, if you are an anti Semite,
you usually do say those same things, which is why
then you have to have the discussion with somebody to
understand what is motivating their criticism of this one nation
in particular. Right, and there are people all along this continuum,
you know, from virulent anti Semite to people just asking
questions right, Like, there's all these different degrees of it.
So I'm trying. I'm not naming people by name to
say I think they are anti Semitic or anything, because
I don't know what's in their heart. All I can
see is they are what they are putting out there
for content. And this is something that I do know
a little bit about. How to build a show, how
to build a podcast, how to curate content. I do
know something about that. And so these are things that
the hosts are, you know, actively thinking about and creating
a show and creating content to advance a certain point
of view or certain guests or whatever. Again, every one
of these hosts are individuals and they're all making their
own decisions for their own shows. However, you can also
see that certain things get them the clicks and get
them the money, get them the followers. I know this.
I work in this industry. I've worked in this industry
for twenty five years longer actually, so I understand the
structure of how this stuff works. And you end up
there's a thing called audience capture where you say things
as a host because you know your audience wants to
hear that, and you may not even agree with it.
You are captured by the audience, a very real thing.
It's a difficult thing for hosts to have have to navigate.
You don't ever really want to be arguing with your
audience all the time because then they'll leave and then
you'll be out of a job. You have an incentive
not to hack off a large chunk of your audience.
I know this firsthand. In twenty fifteen, I was arguing
with my audience all the time over the Trump candidacy
in the primary. So it's not a comfortable place to be.
It's easier to just say what you think your audience
wants to hear, or what your audience says to you,
and messages or on phone calls demanding what you know,
you need to talk about this and you need to
talk about that. And the problem for me in that scenario,
although it has redounded to my benefit, which is that
I'm a bit of a contrariant in case you haven't noticed.
So when people demand that I blame the Jews for everything, like,
I'm not gonna do that. Well for principled reasons as well,
because it's just a class of people. It's just a
group of people that share you know, an immutable characteristic,
and I like, I don't do that for any other group,
Why would do that for them? So this all start?
I think not this all started, but this, this anti
anti Semitism that has been percolating among the woke right
really burst forth after October seventh, and it empowered a
lot of people that were harboring or at least putting
it out on social media, harboring anti Semitic ideas and views.
It allowed them the freedom to now say these things.
This permission structure was now granted, and people took full
advantage to attack everybody, as you know, in the pocket
of Israel that the Jews are telling you to say
that and all of this. And you had hosts that
leaned into that and still do. And so when Douglas
Murray goes on to the Joe Rogan podcast to debate
Dave Smith, it created this this nexus, right because Murray
being a pro Israel guy in my estimation, and Smith
being not a pro Hamasque guy but mainly an anti Israel,
anti war he would say, I'm sure and he would
probably bristle it my oversimplification of that, but that's what
sort of triggered this and then yesterday Jordan Peterson went
on Rogan's podcast and he talked about the psychology behind
some of what we're seeing with this woke right. So
when we come back, I'm going to talk about an analysis,
a brief analysis of that Murray David Smith debate real quick,
because they both did well and they both made mistakes,
as you would imagine in a three hour conversation. And
then or on the psychology and the psychopathology that we're
seeing in the woke right strain of the media ecosystem.
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All Right, there's a fellow, he writes on substack and
on Twitter. His name is ag Hamilton, and here was
his synopsis of what occurred with the Douglas Murray Dave
Smith debate. He said that Murray is generally right on
the substance, and most of his critics are lying about
what he said. But I also don't think he achieved
what he intended with the Rogan podcast. He says, I
think people make a mistake in not differentiating between different
types of wrong. Candice Owens and Ian Carroll are actual
anti Semites who intentionally spread false conspiracies aimed at Jews.
Just today, Carol again let the mask slip. Dave Smith
is not an anti Semite. He's just someone who isn't
bothered by them. He thinks it's better to associate with
anti semites who agree with him about some elements of
foreign policy than non bigots who disagree with him on
those issues. He's more likely to denounce somebody whom he
thinks is too pro war using his framing, than someone
who engages in Holocaust denial, for example. I think that's
wrong and morally bankrupt. But it's not the same category
as Owens and Carol. Joe Rogan is a different animal.
I think he's someone who doesn't like bigotry, but he
doesn't pay enough attention or is aware enough to recognize
it from someone like Owens or Carol. He takes them
at their word, despite them obviously lying once you exis
amine it that it's, you know, just a coincidence. So
much of their craziness and dishonesty is aimed at Jews.
He just likes to have what he perceives as interesting conversations.
Rogan does. But the thing is that he does have
a huge microphone. So where Douglas Murray is right is
an encourage. He's encouraging Rogan to use his platform responsibly.
That's not censorship, despite people pretending otherwise. In the same
way that Rogan insisted that Dave Smith be on the
show with Douglas Murray, he could have insisted that somebody
who understands the information behind conspiracies that Ian Carroll promotes
should have been on with Ian Carroll. After all, that's
why he had a physicist on with Terrence Howard when
Terrence Howard the actor was claiming one times one equals
two and that physics gets everything wrong. But he didn't
do that when Ian Carroll came on because he didn't
see and likely still doesn't understand the harm of not
put pushing back on Carol's conspiracy. So I assume Murray's goal,
aside from promoting his book, was to encourage Rogan to
use that large platform more responsibly. In such cases, specifically,
a key underlying point is that if we are going
to spend so much time criticizing the media and others
for misleading the public, then those with large platforms should
also develop some standards to make sure that the information
they are sharing is accurate and worthwhile. The problem is
that Rogan understandably viewed it as somebody telling him what
to do, and so he got defensive. And that's why
I think it backfired on Douglas Murray. He might have
scored points and even been right, but he didn't convince
somebody with that platform that he should be using it
to push back on some of the stuff. I think
Gag Hamilton, by the way, here is exactly right, exactly right.
I think he would have been better off focusing on
on his book and then having a private conversation with
Rogan to try to explain why pushing back on people
like Daryl Cooper, who just wrote a blog post about
how he's friends with anti Semites but doesn't like that
they are obsessed about it, and Ian Carrol who have
ulterior motives that Rogan might not recognize. He says, I
realized people have mostly abandoned their shared facts and shared realities,
but I think there is a legitimate danger in what
certain characters are trying to normalize right now, it would
be better to encourage those like Rogan to use their
platforms to counter that, even if it feels more righteous
to attack them for insufficiently having done so thus far.
I think that's some good I think that's good advice.
So to this point of the platforming, when Jordan Peterson
was on yesterday with Joe Rogan, although it was recorded,
I guess before yesterday he talked about platforming people who
are politically psychopathic.
Speaker 2: You also set that conversation up, but it poked up
and made itself manifest in that conversation. And the issue
is how do you identify the psychopathic pretenders and it's
even worse now and then make a barrier right now.
The right was calling for the left to do that
for decades and they didn't and they couldn't. And the
left is not good at drawing barriers, partly temperamentally. The
right is somewhat better, but there's no shortage of monstrosity there.
And so then the question is how do you how
do you draw the line? And that's kind of what
I was because I've been watching these right wing they're
not right wing these psychopathic types manipulate the edge of
the conservative movement for their own gain, and a lot
of that's cloaked and anti Semitic, guys. There's plenty of
anti semitism on the left too, by the way, So
it's not unique to the right. But now, yes, yes, yes,
particularly now. And so you know you've let your cureuriosity
guide you, your curiosity and your desire for knowledge, this quest.
You've let that guide you as a podcaster. And I'm,
by the way, I'm trying to work through exactly the
same sort of thing. How do you know, given your
rap radical increase in stature over the last ten years,
how do you know when your curiosity and even your
skepticism about the fact that things aren't the way that
people say they are, because that's certainly been demonstrated in
the last ten years. How do you how should anyone
decide what guardrails to put up? Like, what do you
look for? Do you have a conceptual system worked out
for that?
Speaker 1: He did not spoiler. He did not explain how he's
on guard for that. It's very difficult to do, Rush Limbaugh,
You ever noticed Rush never had guests that was an
intentional thing. And he explained why. He said, guests are
not invested in the success of his show. And when
you host a show, people ask to be on the
show all the time, all the time, because you are
simply a vehicle. Now some people are asking because they're
you know, they have an important message. They're part of
a cause or charity, good stuff, right, like, you want
to elevate that message. You want to help this person
or this organization, And so no problem, they're doing it
for the right reasons. They're trying to get on the
air because they're trying to you know, make positive change.
They're trying to get redress of some kind, they have
a funny story to tell, whatever. But there are other
people out there and they simply use you as a
host in order to spread whatever message they want to spread.
This is why callers get themselves banned from shows. Well,
I will only speak for my show. I have banned
callers from my show for this very reason, because they
are trying to use this platform in order to spread
something with which I disagree, and I doubt that they
are doing it for anything other than personal reasons. And
so it manifests itself in different ways. But a really
good one would be you know, racist, antisemitic, like I
don't want to hear from I have no desire to
hear anything you have to say, because that's the kind
of stuff that gives permission structure to others, like oh,
well I heard this on the radio. Yeah, that you
didn't hear it on my show because I ban that caller.
I won't have and oh, Pete, now you're censoring. You
can call that whatever you want. That's totally fine by me, right,
I don't have any problem if I am set answering
a racist from my show. Guilty is charged. I'm totally
fine with you accusing me of that. I will own it.
But that's part of the responsibility that we have that
I have, that I perceive that I have, and other
hosts have different perceptions of responsibility and they are free
to have them. All Right, If you're listening to this show,
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also supports ground News as they make the media landscape
more transparent. Here's an email from Joseph who says, yeah,
Peterson is calling out such right wing extremists as psychopaths
like Mike Cernovich and Glenn Greenwald. He actually did not
do that, Joseph. I don't know what did you listen
to the entire three hour podcast, because I did, and
the only name that I heard him mention was Andrew Tait,
who I think definitely fits the bill for a psychopath.
He talks about psychopathology or psychopaths being four to five
percent of the total population. That's it. He didn't name.
I don't believe he named anybody else specifically, if I
recall correctly, I never heard Cernovich's name, and I never
heard Glenn Greenwold's name. Glenn Greenwold's a lefty. Not that
there can't be psychopaths on the left either right. So
if you split psychopaths half and half between left and right,
you're talking two percent. Like I said, the only one
that he mentioned was this guy, Andrew Tate. And if
you know anything about that dude, like I said, he
fits the bill in my non clinician opinion. Joseph goes
on to say, a growing portion on the right field
the same way about the Middle East as we do Ukraine.
We don't care the millennia that doesn't make that. See,
this is the problem, this is what this is exactly
what James Lindsay is talking about and what Peterson is
talking about. They're mapping these issues onto what like onto
their desire, their narcissism, their psycho pathology. They're using these
issues to grow their influence, and they're saying these things
and the ideology does not matter, The positions do not matter.
They don't care. That's the that's the premise here. Psychopaths
don't care in the pursuit of power that the the
the ideology is irrelevant. That's what Peterson keeps saying. He
keeps saying the same thing about this, And so, Okay,
you will agree with them on Ukraine. Okay, you agree
with them on endless wars, foreign wars. Great, that doesn't
that doesn't mean they're not co opting you or attempting to.
And if it means then that you have to like, oh, well,
you know, I hadn't thought about that. Maybe the Jews
are to blame for everything in the world. Like, then
that's that's the play. The millennia old blood feud in
the Holy Land means no more to us than the
Intraslavic family feud in Eastern Europe. The US is basically
funded both sides of conflicts and most hotspots all over
the world. You'd be shocked if we and our money disappeared,
how fast those hot spots would cool off. Yeah, I
think that's a bit conceited. I think those hotspots would
continue to be hot. They would just use different weapons because,
as you just said, Joseph, it's been going on for millennia.
They will bash each other's heads in with rocks if
they are not provided javelin missiles. Right, Bob says, both speakers,
writers and listeners, Both speakers and listeners, writers and readers
are somewhat lazy. I seldom trust one man's opinion other
than my own, unless that man is Rush Limbaugh or
Pete Calender. Well that's very good, that's my truth. I'm
sticking to it. Right, let me play this clip now
before I run out of time. Also, this was Jordan
Peterson appearing on Sean Hannity's Fox Show I Believe last night.
Speaker 3: Well, I think the most important thing to do first
is to draw a distinction between the political and the
psychological and not to collapse them together. Right, So imagine this.
Imagine that there's a group of individuals, about four percent
of the population, who have a set of personality characteristics
that have been described as dark tetrat So they're machiavellian,
they use their language to manipulate, they're narcissistic, they want
unearned social status and reputation. They're psychopathic, which makes them
free of empathy and parasitical and predatory, and they're sadistic,
so they take positive delight in the unnecessary suffering of others. Now,
those people also use false cries of victimization, let's say,
to manipulate, and they're entitled. They seek vengeance when it's unwarranted,
and they protest loudly and make very public cries for
reparations that would be self serving.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 3: Now, the way those people operate is they look for
what patterns of belief form groups that they can infiltrate
and then capitalize on. And that happens on the right.
We did a report the same group on the use
of Christ as King as a manipulative strategy by bad
actors hypothetically on the right, and this report identified the
same sort of people on the left, but it's not
primarily political. They're wolves in sheep's clothing who look for
where there's power and value and then adopt those beliefs
as a surface camouflage so that they can elevate their
moral status. Now, and this has become worse in recent
years as far as I'm concerned, because the evolved strategies
that we have for dealing with these psychopathic types. Psychopathic
narcissistic types don't work well online, and so the psychopaths
can get away with their terrible manipulations online and they
can find like minded people and they can escape from
any reputational consequences. And so there's always been psychopaths. Those
are the pharisees, for example, that Christ points to the
religious pretenders. Those are the people who use God's name
in vain and claim moral virtue and even religious devotion,
while all they're doing is feathering their own nests and
furthering their own narrow interests. And the web social media
anonymity enables them to organize and also hides them much
more effectively. And this is a problem in religious organizations,
it's a problem in political organizations, and it pathologizes the
whole culture. You know, most people, eighty percent of Americans
agree on virtually everything. And then there's these fringe people
and they're not political. They're psychopathological narsisssists who cloak themselves
in political guys. And we all have to learn to
distinguish between the political and the psychological.
Speaker 1: We're not good at it. That's the key. That's the key.
It's not political, it's psychological. We have to learn, we
have to be better at identifying it. The false cries
of victimization, and these people look for unguarded stores of value.
The university system is the perfect example. These institutions. They
had money, they had credibility, prestige, they controlled access through
their credentialing with diplomas and such, and they were unguarded
for what the left psychopaths did. They came in and
they just feasted on this carcass because it was unguarded,
because they were ill equipped and ignorant to the threat. Right,
that's the case that that Peterson is laying out. Why
would you not think that could happen on the right? Like,
to me, that's the obvious that's the obvious question that
sort of proves the point, which is, if people of
this kind of disorder, of this kind of psychopathy, if
the politics or the issues don't actually matter, why would
you not think that when the right builds up a
store of value of some kind, like the podcast world,
the new media, why would you not think that they
would go in there and do the same thing. They
would just say different things because they don't care about
what the politics are, what the issues are, The ideology
doesn't matter to them. What matters is satisfying their own needs.
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So this walk, right, I don't know what to call it,
a flare up, this eruption into sort of the more
into the public. Because again, as I said earlier, I
don't know if it was this hour or last, but
I have been aware of these skirmishes that have been occurring.
But they were naming people that I didn't really know about,
and then every now and again and be like, oh
my gosh, what did that person say? Like what what
are they saying? And then if I don't know enough
about it, I'm not going to bring it onto the show.
And so yeah, I started seeing stuff about Candice Owens
years ago, maybe like a year or two ago, stuff
she was saying, and and I try to get people
the benefit of the doubt. But when you give me example, example,
example after example, well, now I'm going to believe that like, Okay,
this is whatever brand you're trying to build, this is
part of your brand. And when you know every explanation
boils down to the Jews, then I'm going to draw
a certain conclusion from that brand, from your branding effort.
And that's not my faults, that's yours, especially for professional communicator,
I'm pointing her out. I will note that online over
the last twenty four hours there have been a surprising
number of people who thought Jordan Peterson was calling them
a psychopath, even though Jordan Peterson never mentioned anybody by
name except for Andrew t I don't know what Andrew
Tate's views are on Israel. I have no idea, okay, don't.
I do not give that man a clique. Ever, I
understand like he lured a lot of people in and
for some reason they think that he is just the
BEA's knees on stuff. I do not what I've limited
views of him, and what I've read of him, and
the things he has said, and the charges against him.
It gave me enough of a I think, a basis
to say I have nothing that I want to learn
from this man. So I don't waste my time, because
my time is valuable. It is a unit of my life,
and so I am not going to waste it listening
to him or occupying my time with thoughts of him.
He was the only name that I mentioned, but for
some reason, in the last twenty four hours, a bunch
of people on the right seem to think that they
were called a psychopath, which, guys, that's kind of what
a psychopath, That's what a narcissist would think when you
hear when you hear Jordan Peterson say four to five
percent of the population have these tendencies and they go
in and they feast off of the carcass of stored
value in an institution. And you think he's talking about you, Well, like,
that's kind of one of the symptoms. I'm not saying
you're the psychopath. I'm just saying that that's one of
the symptoms. That's one of the things that somebody who
was doing that would probably think. Also, they're making it
about themselves, and now they're victimized because they were called
this mean word, woe is me. It's sort of like
the old saying that if you throw a rock into
a pack of dogs, the one that gets hit is
the one that yelps. Not that I am advocating throwing
rocks at dogs. I'm not saying that. I'm just pointing
out that the saying exists for a reason, and what
I think Peterson is trying to do and others on
the right and James Lindsay, and I know he's not
of the right guy's like an atheist. I think he
may even be libertarian. I don't even know. But what
these guys are trying to do is to warn the followers,
the fans of these people to beware because the fall
will come, because it always does with psychopaths. And I
thought Peterson's comments there were spot on that. In the past,
if you're in, you know, an organization and you run
into one of these types of narcissistic psychopathic personality types,
you learn very quickly what kind of person they are,
and then like there, you know, the people in the group,
either you know, toss them out, like get out of here,
we don't want you in here. You're you know, a
toxic presence in our club or whatever, or you just
avoid them, you shun them, right. But in today's age
with the Internet, that becomes much more difficult to determine.
That's what Peterson was talking about. We haven't figured this
out yet. How to keep these kinds of toxic personalities
from feasting on on the store of value, the unguarded
store of value. How do you do that? And when
these people go too far, when the psychopath goes too far,
and they eventually will because that's kind of their jam.
They're going to take a lot of people with them,
and whatever good and whatever cause that you think this
person is helping you with, they're not actually trying to
help you in that cause, because again they're psychopathic, and
so they're just using the cause for their own goals,
and when their fall occurs, you will go down with them.
I believe Satan took a whole bunch of angels with them.
So that's the warning. You know, be careful who you
are following, Be careful who you are promoting, and if
you're a podcaster or a radio host, be careful who
you are platforming, because you don't know, right, you just
don't know about these people. And by the way, you know,
I like, I'm here every day for three hours hopefully
and people can call in and we can have conversations,
and hopefully people will recognize I'm not a psychopath, but
that is what a psychopath would say. Hmmm. Makes you
think all right, all right, that'll do it for this episode.
Thank you so much for listening. I could not do
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