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From nineteen ten to nineteen nineteen, New Orleans 56 00:02:52.199 --> 00:02:54.840 suffered at the hands of its very own Jack the 57 00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:59.599 Ripper style killer. The story has been the subject of websites, 58 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:04.360 short stories, novels, a graphic novel, and most recently, the 59 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:09.280 FX television series American Horror Story. But the full story 60 00:03:09.319 --> 00:03:14.800 of gruesome murders, sympathetic victims, accused innocence, public panic, the 61 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:19.240 New Orleans Mafia, and a mysterious killer has never been 62 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:24.319 written until now. The Axeman repeatedly broke into the homes 63 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:27.599 of Italian grocers in the dead of night, leaving his 64 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:32.120 victims in a pool of blood. Irelando Giordano, an innocent 65 00:03:32.199 --> 00:03:35.439 Italian grocer, and his teenage son Frank, were wrongly accused 66 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:39.280 of one of those murders corrupt officials that convicted them 67 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:44.479 with coarced testimony. Miriam C. Davis here expertly tells the 68 00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.719 story of the search for the Axemen and of the 69 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:51.919 eventual exoneration of the innocent Giordano's She proves that the 70 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:55.080 person most widely suspected of being the ax Man was 71 00:03:55.199 --> 00:03:58.759 not the killer. She also shows what few have suspected, 72 00:03:59.599 --> 00:04:03.840 the acts continued killing after leaving New Orleans in nineteen nineteen, 73 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:08.560 only thirty years after the Jack. After Jack, the Ripper 74 00:04:08.599 --> 00:04:12.280 stock the streets of Whitechapel, The Axe Man of New 75 00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:16.319 Orleans held in the American city hostage. This book tells 76 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:19.040 that story. The book to are featuring this evening is 77 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.920 The Axe Man of New Orleans, The True Story by 78 00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:27.800 historian and author Miriam Davis. Welcome to the program, and 79 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.480 thank you for agreeing to this interview. Miriam C. 80 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.560 Davis, Well, thank you for having me. 81 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:37.519 Thank you very much. A very, very very interesting and 82 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:43.639 fascinating book. Let's get right to this book. We have 83 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:47.160 a lot to cover. You open this book in nineteen 84 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:52.120 nineteen and New Orleans and the Marty Grass and Carnival 85 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:59.800 and a couple people Charlie and rosie Courtemigia, as you 86 00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:02.199 do when the book tell us a little bit about 87 00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:06.240 New Orleans and Marty Gras in nineteen nineteen, tell us 88 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:09.079 a little bit of the state of the city at 89 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:11.800 that time. And as you do in the book, you open, 90 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:16.319 get the setting, set the stage, tell us a little 91 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:19.120 bit about Marty Grass and New Orleans in nineteen nineteen, 92 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:21.000 and the courtemilguless. 93 00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:27.879 Well, the war in Europe had just ended and they 94 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.480 had decided not to have an official monogral. A mounogral 95 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:34.680 in those days was a very big deal. Everybody dressed up, 96 00:05:36.439 --> 00:05:39.600 I mean even bigger deal than you have now, where 97 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:42.759 today you have a lot of tourists, you have a 98 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:46.160 lot of praise, but at that time everybody would dress 99 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:49.199 up and sort of participate in a way and had 100 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:51.680 the old fashioned monogral balls in a way you don't 101 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:55.360 really have today. But what seems to have happened is 102 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:59.680 that there were these spontaneous celebrations that had just broken out, 103 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.319 with people dressing up and music going up and down 104 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:07.480 the streets. So it really was a very celebratory time. 105 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:10.399 And it was only a few days after the end 106 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:14.040 of Mardigras that you have the attack in Gretna at 107 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:16.920 the Court of Miglia Grocery and Gretina is now part 108 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:19.920 of Greater New Orleans, but at the time it was 109 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.480 right across It was a separate little town, a little 110 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.199 settlement right across the river, right across from New Orleans. 111 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:35.560 Now you talk about Charles and Rosie, tell us what 112 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:38.439 business they were in, because this is important to this story. 113 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:44.560 Who they were, where they originally come from historically, and 114 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:46.759 just the business that they'd set up. Tell us a 115 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.439 little bit about the Italians and immigration and them settling 116 00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:51.759 in this area. 117 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.680 Well, there were a lot of Italians, mostly eighty percent 118 00:06:56.720 --> 00:06:59.879 of them Sicilians, who came into Louisiana through a New 119 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.360 Orleans in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. The 120 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.839 plantation owners, the cotton plantation owners, the sugarcane planters, wanted 121 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:12.439 really cheap labor, and they brought in the Sicilians because 122 00:07:12.439 --> 00:07:15.319 they worked really hard and they were very dependable laborers. 123 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:21.279 And what the Sicilians wanted to do was to go 124 00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:23.920 into business for themselves. So what they tended to do 125 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.079 was to work really hard to save every dime they had, 126 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:30.360 and then as soon as they could to go into 127 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:32.959 some sort of business for themselves. They often started out 128 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:36.839 as little, small peddlers and many of them ended up 129 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.439 as a little corner grocery store owners. Now at the time, 130 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:45.639 of course, there's no refrigeration and people have to shop 131 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:49.279 or housewives have to shop, sometimes twice a day. So 132 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:55.319 on corner there's a small, small, little grocery, usually family owned, 133 00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:00.079 and the Sicilians, the Italians, were in the process in 134 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.319 the early twentieth century of sort of taking over this business. 135 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:08.639 This was become a little niche so corner, a family 136 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:11.079 owned where the family lived in the back of the grocery. 137 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:15.120 Family owned Italian groceries were very common in New Orleans 138 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:19.079 at the time, and so Charlie and Rosie are a 139 00:08:19.160 --> 00:08:24.480 typical Italian couple. He was born in Italy and so 140 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:28.519 as an immigrant. She actually was born of the immigrant 141 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:34.799 parents in Louisiana in one of the Sugarcane parishes. He 142 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:38.080 had been a laborer. They were in I guess Charlie 143 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:40.759 was probably in his middle twenties, Rosie was about twenty one. 144 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.320 They had a small child. He had worked as a 145 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:49.080 laborer for many years until he'd saved the money to 146 00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:51.399 go into the grocery business. And again they had just 147 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:58.480 this very small I mean smaller than you know, most 148 00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:00.600 of the quick stops that we go to these days, 149 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:04.919 but their own little grocery in Gretna that they were running. 150 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.679 Now you talk about the attack itself, let's get to that, 151 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:16.120 because then quickly you retrack and say that the serial killer. 152 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.080 Of course that wasn't called it that at that time 153 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.279 at all, and wasn't recognized as that. But you say 154 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.279 the serial killer has started nine years earlier. But let's 155 00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:28.799 go to just the attack before we as you do, 156 00:09:29.399 --> 00:09:32.720 rewind back to nineteen ten and the beginning of this. 157 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.639 So what is the attack characterized by. 158 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:41.600 Usually, Well, in the case of the courtamiglia is, they 159 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.759 were discovered in their bedroom, slumped across their bed with 160 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:50.240 their daughter in between. They were both badly, badly injured 161 00:09:51.519 --> 00:09:55.200 by the acts. Their daughter had been killed. She's a 162 00:09:55.320 --> 00:10:00.639 two year old toddler. And they're discovered very early, uh 163 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.279 Sunday morning, when a woman is trying to get into 164 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:08.480 the grocery, you know, finds it very strange that it's 165 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:11.480 not open as as it normally would be. And so 166 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:16.919 the neighbors discover them, and that George, the Court Amiglia, 167 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:20.879 I'm sorry that Geordano family are their neighbors, and there's 168 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:23.559 some of the first to arrive on the scene, and 169 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.240 you know, the sheriff is sent for, our doctors are 170 00:10:27.279 --> 00:10:31.000 sent for. The whole neighborhood seems to scramble into operation 171 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:37.679 and to eventually transport the short of the court Amiglias, 172 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:39.440 who are you know, who are still alive while they're 173 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.639 they're badly injured, to to the hospital in New Orleans. 174 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:47.440 As fast as possible, right and then this charity hospital 175 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:51.159 which figures centrally in this as well as where they 176 00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:56.320 were taken to. Now you you talk about that, you 177 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.559 talk about that right away, that there is the police 178 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:04.279 are on the job. But of course these kinds of attacks, 179 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:08.120 as you write, are very very uncommon, and so they 180 00:11:08.320 --> 00:11:14.840 don't understand motive. And so the police immediately look into 181 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:19.360 the two couples and the Jordano's living next door, and 182 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:22.759 what do they find and what information do they find 183 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.000 and what do they then attribute this attack? 184 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:31.480 Too? Well, the Giordano's and the Courtmiglius had had in 185 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.360 previous months a business disagreement. They'd actually had to go 186 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:40.200 to court over it. So even though the Jordana's are 187 00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:46.799 completely forthcoming and cooperative and the investigation, the police, as 188 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.919 Sheriff Marrero just sort of decides, I think, because he 189 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:55.000 doesn't understand the idea of the serial killer, he decides 190 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:57.320 that they must have done it simply because they're the 191 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:03.679 most likely, the most likely enemies that the Court of 192 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:06.080 Meglias might have had. Now, in fact, they seem to 193 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:08.480 have made up and have been on very good terms. 194 00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:12.480 That Frank Giordano, particularly who was seventeen at the time, 195 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:15.960 just adored the little toddler Mary and she used to 196 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:18.200 come over to their grocery and play all the time. 197 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:24.200 But I think it was that the authorities in Gretna 198 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:31.840 understood the idea of the Sicilian vendetta. Sicilians, because they 199 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:37.240 had a distrust of the government, tended to handle things 200 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:41.000 what we might call extra legally through the vendetta. And 201 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:45.559 when the first generation of immigrants come over, unfortunately, some 202 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:47.840 of them bring that practice with them, and so it's 203 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:52.240 not uncommon for there to be shootings or stabbings among 204 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.720 the immigrant Italian community that nobody will cooperate with the 205 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.759 police about. And this happens with the first generation immigrants. 206 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:07.679 So the police in Gretna understand that they're they're acquainted 207 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:11.679 with that idea, but the idea of a serial killer 208 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.000 is so uncommon and so unusual, and like you say, 209 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:18.200 at the time, there wasn't even the term that I 210 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:21.120 think that they just couldn't wrap their heads around it. Now, 211 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.240 the across the river where there have been this series 212 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:31.679 of attacks, the police superintendent Frank Mooney, he doesn't use 213 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:34.759 the term serial killer, but he's tumble to the fact 214 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:38.519 that there seems to be somebody who is serially attacking 215 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.960 Italian grocers. But the trouble is is that the Gretna 216 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:49.919 authorities refused to listen to the to the New Orleans authorities, 217 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.480 and they just jump to the conclusion that the Jordana's 218 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:56.240 must have been guilty because they were the most obvious suspects. 219 00:13:59.000 --> 00:14:02.679 Now, this is the story of Frank Giordano and his father, 220 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.840 and Frank Jordano's seventeen years old, and as you write 221 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:08.039 in a book too, there's this relationship where he just 222 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.159 loves his child and he plays with his child. And 223 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.519 then through all of these circumstances, Rosie is questioned by 224 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:19.039 the police, and again the police are looking for a 225 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:22.759 natural motive, something that makes sense to them, And of 226 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:25.000 course they have this idea that it's based on a 227 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:29.159 rental dispute. And despite the closeness of the family, and 228 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:35.159 despite everything, the Jordanos are accused. How does this happen? 229 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:39.759 Tell us about the identification process that puts these two 230 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.720 people as he accused. 231 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:47.200 Well, it seems to have happened, is that while Charlie 232 00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:53.279 and Rosie were in Charity Hospital recovering that the police 233 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:56.679 basically seem to have badger them and said, you know, 234 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:00.399 ask them very leading questions, and you know, did the 235 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:03.480 Georgianas do it? Did the Gordanas do it? Was Frank there, 236 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:09.480 you know. And in fact, none of the doctors ever 237 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:17.519 heard either one of them accuse anybody. Rosie's doctor, up 238 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:21.159 until when she left the hospital after three weeks, testified 239 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:25.159 in court that she told him she had no memory 240 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.360 of who of who attacked her. She had no memory 241 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:33.039 of the attack whatsoever. But after several weeks of this badgering, 242 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:38.960 the police claim that both of them have identified the Giordana's. 243 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.559 Nobody else claims to have heard this. In fact, there 244 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:45.960 are reporters who then will after this report came out 245 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:49.000 that the police are claiming that they've identified that Giordana's 246 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:51.720 the police. There are several reporters who go and talk 247 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:54.200 to them, and it's pretty clear that they have no 248 00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:59.320 idea who who attacked them. And in fact, Charlie Courtamiglia 249 00:15:59.399 --> 00:16:01.519 is in such bad shape that he will just agree 250 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:04.879 to anything you ask him. So it seems to me 251 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:11.399 that this identification, that this claim on the part of 252 00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:16.799 the police in Gretna is at best as a result 253 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:20.080 of the police asking them very leading questions to which 254 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:26.480 they will automatically answer, you know, yes. And then Rosie, 255 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:30.000 after three weeks, is actually well enough to be released, 256 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:36.600 and she's taken from Charity Hospital directly to Greta jail 257 00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.759 and she's kept in jail overnight. And she later said 258 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:44.720 and then it's at that point that she seems to 259 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:49.039 indict her neighbors, and she later testified that it's because 260 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:55.039 the sheriff and the jailer told her that basically they 261 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:57.759 were going to keep her in there, ostensibly as a 262 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.919 material witness, but they were going to keep until she 263 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:05.240 did what they wanted her to do, which was to 264 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:07.279 identify her neighbors as the attacker. 265 00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:14.079 Yeah, it's incredible. So we again, like I mentioned, we 266 00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.240 you go backwards in time and then come back to 267 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:21.519 this incredible case and to the trial. Needless to say 268 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.680 that before we rewind back to August thirteen, nineteen ten 269 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.200 and what you call the cleaver and Harriet Crudy and 270 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:35.559 that attack that these two innocent men, his father is 271 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.799 sort of not sickly but certainly not a strong man. 272 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:43.079 And then this strapping young boy, Giordano, who loved the 273 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:47.000 baby next door, are accused of this atrocious attack and 274 00:17:47.240 --> 00:17:50.759 on the baby and on the couple and are consequently 275 00:17:51.559 --> 00:17:55.160 sentenced Frank to death and to the father for life. 276 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:00.559 Let's rewind to August thirteen, nineteen ten and what you 277 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:05.240 call a cleaver and the attack of Harriet Crudy. Why 278 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:09.599 do you go back? Yeah, and what was characterized by 279 00:18:09.680 --> 00:18:13.839 that attack? What was similarities or differences in that attack? 280 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:15.039 Tell us about that? 281 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.920 Well. I think that this attack of August thirteen, nineteen 282 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.480 ten is probably the first attack of the killer who 283 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.039 comes to be known as the axe Man. I think 284 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.680 this was his first sort of dabbling in this sort 285 00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:31.279 of thing. And I think there's a lot of evidence 286 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:34.119 the police believed at the time that he actually started 287 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:38.160 out as a burglar, because he seemed to used some 288 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:42.160 of the typical tools of burglars at the time, and 289 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.200 in this case, he seems to have started by robbing 290 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:49.960 the Cruti family. Harriet Cruty wakes up in the middle 291 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:53.119 of the night. Her husband has been hit with a cleaver, 292 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.799 and this man is waving the cleaver at her, demanding money. 293 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.319 She gives them money. He leaves very leisurely. He walks 294 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.720 to the house. He puts back on his boots that 295 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:12.160 he'd taken off. And I think that this is I 296 00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.319 suspect this is somebody who started out as a burglar, 297 00:19:16.039 --> 00:19:21.039 but for whatever reason, ended up attacking somebody. Maybe the 298 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.839 grocer woke up in the middle of the night and 299 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.440 startled him, and he hit him because he was afraid 300 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:30.039 he would start yelling for help. Then and I talked 301 00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.839 to a homicide detective and to a profiler, and what 302 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:37.279 may have happened is this burglar discovers that when he 303 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:40.799 hits somebody with this sharp implement, that he just likes it. 304 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.119 He likes the side of the blood, he likes the power, 305 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:47.119 and so his sort of descent into serial killer may 306 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:52.319 have begun almost accidentally. So I do think that the 307 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.559 attack with a butcher's cleaver probably the first in this 308 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:01.720 series of attacks, because I asked a profiler, a retired 309 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:06.240 profiler from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, how likely was 310 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:10.279 it that somebody would attack the same demographic the same 311 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:15.559 time of night with a sharp implement, you know that 312 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.680 there would be one attacker in nineteen ten, nineteen eleven, 313 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:23.720 and then another attacker in nineteen eighteen and nineteen nineteen, 314 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:27.119 and he said it was extremely unlikely. So I feel 315 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:30.119 pretty confident in saying that the person who started off 316 00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.519 with a cleaver and then eventually moved to using an 317 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:39.039 axe was probably the same person. And I think I 318 00:20:39.079 --> 00:20:43.079 can come up with a good reason for that. After 319 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:47.839 the cleaver attacked Harriet Cruti. Of course, the next month 320 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:53.839 another couple is attacked with a similar implement, and these 321 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.799 are their rezetties and they are very, very badly injured. 322 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:01.559 And it's not until though the next early the next summer, 323 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:03.279 that Joe Davy is actually killed. 324 00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:06.000 And what the. 325 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:11.000 Attacker seems to be doing in these cases is he's 326 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:15.119 stealing a butcher's cleaver with him. He's using it for 327 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.839 the attack and he's dropping it at the scene. Well, 328 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.559 of course that means that he's running a risk by 329 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.359 an additional risk by having to go and break into 330 00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:30.039 a butcher's shop and steal a cleaver if he uses 331 00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:34.799 the everybody at the time has an axe because everybody 332 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.720 is using a wood burning stove. So anytime he breaks 333 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:41.799 into somebody's house, he knows there's going to be an 334 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.359 axe lying round. He can use that, he can leave 335 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.359 it at the scene, and then he can leave without 336 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.559 carrying anything incriminating like a butcher's cleaver or like a 337 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:59.880 bloody axe. So so yeah, the attacks start with the 338 00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:04.599 cruties in I think it's September of nineteen ten. The 339 00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:11.599 next month you have another Italian grocer immigrant couple, the Rossetties, 340 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:15.079 who were not killed, but who were both very badly injured. 341 00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.839 And then a few months after that, I think it's 342 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:26.480 June of nineteen ten, you have Joe and Mary Davy 343 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:31.000 who were attacked and she's slightly injured, but he is 344 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:33.640 actually killed. He's the first, I think he's the first 345 00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:36.880 actual fatality of the ax man. 346 00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:41.920 You talk about some of the characteristics of the crime itself. 347 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:46.519 That was interesting is that the person gained entry into 348 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:50.880 some of these places by removing a door panel and 349 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.720 then getting in and being barefoot or at least shoeless. 350 00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:58.880 And the thing is that even though police were accustomed 351 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:01.799 to seeing the would have as robbery and looking at 352 00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.319 it very simplistically, even to the police at that time, 353 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:07.960 they could see that robbery, it looked like was not 354 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:13.319 the main purpose because stuff was things were, money was 355 00:23:13.480 --> 00:23:14.559 left behind, wasn't it. 356 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:23.079 Yes, yes, he'd the prying off. I mean, of course 357 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.759 these doors would have been very big, heavy doors, and 358 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.599 there were these big, by our standards door panels that 359 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:33.880 the ax men would often pry off to reach in 360 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.480 his hand to slip the latch. Now, that was not 361 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.839 his only means of jury. Sometimes he just climbed through 362 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:45.200 an open window if there was one available. Sometimes he 363 00:23:45.319 --> 00:23:48.599 climbed through a kitchen window. But the prying off of 364 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:50.880 the door panel is one that sort of becomes six 365 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:57.279 mind of signature. Often he would steal, as he did 366 00:23:57.440 --> 00:24:00.400 in the Cruti case. He'd steal small amounts of money, 367 00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:05.640 but he leaves valuable jewelry behind. Sometimes he's stole nothing. 368 00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:09.359 Oftentimes it would look through like he was throwing things 369 00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:13.119 around looking for something, but nothing valuable was taken. So 370 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:20.759 the police pretty quickly concluded that burglary was not his 371 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:24.799 major major object, although sometimes small amounts were taken. 372 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:31.720 You talk about and introduce this Jim Reynolds, inspector of Police, 373 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.519 but you also talk about what his opinion was on 374 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:39.680 these murders, what the police in their opinion was, and 375 00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:42.599 then the media media's take on this, and then some 376 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:48.799 of the important media members that really advanced this and also, 377 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:52.839 as we talk later helped the case of the Jordanos 378 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:57.079 later to when they were at trial. So tell us 379 00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:01.599 what Reynolds thinks and depicts this killer as and and 380 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.720 other police and the media what is all of their 381 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:07.359 takes on who this is and who it could be. 382 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:14.079 Well, Jim Reynolds is the first New Orleans Police superintendent 383 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:18.839 who appears in the story. He sort of kept his 384 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.519 cards close to the vest at first because he's the 385 00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:24.720 one who's dealing with the Cruti, the Recetto and the 386 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:30.599 Davy attacks, and so it's kind of hard to get 387 00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.119 at exactly what he thinks. Oh, it's pretty clear that 388 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:39.559 he doesn't think these are ordinary attacks. The in this 389 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:43.359 first set of attacks, you actually the press are making 390 00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:45.920 all kind of speculations. This is when you actually see, 391 00:25:46.039 --> 00:25:50.400 you know, the attacker compared to Jack the Ripper, New 392 00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:55.400 Orleans own Jack the Ripper. But you know, in the 393 00:25:55.480 --> 00:25:58.960 first set of attacks, there is a man named Flannery 394 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:05.839 who is arrested. Jim Reynolds sort of assumes that whoever's 395 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.039 doing this is not quite in his right mind, because 396 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:12.400 this attacker is acting very oddly. In the case of 397 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:16.359 the Crutie attack, he not only sort of nonchalantly walks 398 00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.599 down the street as if he didn't have a care 399 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.079 in the world, but he also grabs the Cruties bird 400 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:25.640 on the way out and sits on the stoop and 401 00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:29.640