Speaker 1: Hey everyone, I'm Nicole and I'm Ben, and you're listening
Speaker 1: to Wicked and Grim, a.
Speaker 2: True crime podcast. Good morning.
Speaker 1: The following podcast material for audience listener question Episode five.
Speaker 2: Here we go, Episode five, Ready to roll. I don't know,
Speaker 2: I asked me at the end.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping I can sit through all this because my
Speaker 1: back is like killing me today. I don't know why.
Speaker 2: Old.
Speaker 1: I know my birthdays next month? You better be getting
Speaker 1: me something cool. Thirty three.
Speaker 2: I actually already have it.
Speaker 1: You do, alright?
Speaker 2: You three isn't really a big deal though, it's not like.
Speaker 1: A well no, it's not a big deal.
Speaker 2: But every birthday is a mile stone. Really you need
Speaker 2: to think that way.
Speaker 1: Well, it's another year in this planet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, birthday is not promised to anyone.
Speaker 1: No, well, tomorrow's not promised to anyone. The end of
Speaker 1: this podcast isn't promised to you. Dun't n I could
Speaker 1: like unplug it and that's the end of the series.
Speaker 1: Just end it for people. It's all gone.
Speaker 2: That's how we'll wrap it up. When we're done with this. Yep,
Speaker 2: there now you know it.
Speaker 1: I'll look at Kiwi.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we have our Maskot joining us, our.
Speaker 1: Black Cat qis just all snuggled up in the center
Speaker 1: of one of the dog peds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the life.
Speaker 1: I wish I could just lay around all day like
Speaker 1: a cat.
Speaker 2: I really wish that I could just have one day
Speaker 2: where I did that.
Speaker 1: Right, Even weekends, we're just non stop, go go go.
Speaker 2: I've been feeling the need for that. I think it's
Speaker 2: coming up. I'm going to just have a day where
Speaker 2: I'm just bumping a log.
Speaker 1: Good call, Good call. Oh actually, I completely forgot about
Speaker 1: this until just this moment. Should we maybe tell them
Speaker 1: that we're going to be doing a little giveaway things soon?
Speaker 1: Hopefully maybe almost, I don't know.
Speaker 2: Oh, we don't know how long it's going to be though,
Speaker 2: but we are. We have a giveaway in the works.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do, because like we've had such awesome support
Speaker 1: from you guys so far that we're like, we need
Speaker 1: to give back to you just to say thank you
Speaker 1: for how welcoming you've been for us starting this podcast.
Speaker 2: We need to our peeps.
Speaker 1: But we got to get the thing to give away first.
Speaker 2: But it's super cool and I think you're gonna want it,
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, I want it.
Speaker 1: Well, maybe we should get some for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we're moving to a tiny home.
Speaker 1: No, I forgot about that aspect because we already have
Speaker 1: those things. But we're not going to say what it is.
Speaker 1: We're not going to our we no, okay, we will
Speaker 1: say that we're going to be working with a local
Speaker 1: artisan to get it done up. How's that?
Speaker 2: And she's very popular and they're super cool.
Speaker 1: Oh you said she So now it's like narrowed down.
Speaker 1: Did you just assume her gender? Their gender? Did you
Speaker 1: assume their I just assumed her gender too by saying that,
Speaker 1: technically technically now she is an amazing artist. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's going to be pretty cool put together.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm actually stokedaked.
Speaker 1: Are you stoked for this episode?
Speaker 2: I am.
Speaker 1: The research is done.
Speaker 2: The research is done in the nick of time, not
Speaker 2: just but it was actually like super hard. I was
Speaker 2: expecting the research for this one to be much easier
Speaker 2: than the last one.
Speaker 1: And why is that?
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, it's an old case, so it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's probably not very much detail out there, like how
Speaker 2: many sources can there be? Blah blah blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: but there's very limited to sources, but like every single
Speaker 2: one of them was different.
Speaker 1: Well, how did you figure out what the case is
Speaker 1: basically by.
Speaker 2: Just reading as much as I could, and then if
Speaker 2: I ever came across the same info twice, then I
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, this seems like more legit. Like I
Speaker 2: just had to do a lot more reading and a
Speaker 2: lot more because before my last case, it was just
Speaker 2: news stories and it was a recent case, so everything
Speaker 2: was up to date, pretty black and white, and this
Speaker 2: just wasn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of the way the case.
Speaker 2: I feel like if the case was super easy for
Speaker 2: me to research, maybe it wouldn't be very fun to
Speaker 2: listen to.
Speaker 1: That's true. True. So when you say it's a super
Speaker 1: old case, how old are we talking.
Speaker 2: Here, Well, it's a historic case. A Canadian, another Canadian,
Speaker 2: amazing Canadian.
Speaker 1: We should delve into some other country cases here soon
Speaker 1: because we're like sticking very close to home marks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I always said I would, so you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I do know. The next case is it's
Speaker 1: going to involve a Canadian but in a different country.
Speaker 2: So this the murder itself happened in the eighteen eighties,
Speaker 2: eighteen eighty oh, so it's quite old.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is our oldest case yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty intense. My job definitely like dropped a
Speaker 2: few times as I was doing my research.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm ready for my job to be dropped to
Speaker 1: the floor of this episode.
Speaker 2: Okay, you're ready, So I'm ready. It's the story of
Speaker 2: the Donnelly family massacre, massacreing the.
Speaker 1: Donnelly family manicure. They all went out and got many
Speaker 1: petties together.
Speaker 2: It's fantastic.
Speaker 1: No the donal that name rings a bell. That name
Speaker 1: rings a bell.
Speaker 2: It's a very like famous Canadian case. Okay, so I'm
Speaker 2: gonna dive in here.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's hear it. Start start us off.
Speaker 2: So the story starts in Tippery Island, Ireland, during the
Speaker 2: potato fathom fathom.
Speaker 1: They can't fathom how many potatoes.
Speaker 2: Are on and might they say that wrong? I don't
Speaker 2: know what fathom that famine.
Speaker 1: Famine, the potato famine.
Speaker 2: Only bring this, Okay. I have to get my craft
Speaker 2: together here, like the potato.
Speaker 1: Famine famine, like that they're starving.
Speaker 2: I'm a boat to dive into. Okay, you know what
Speaker 2: that is.
Speaker 1: I can't fathom what that would be my gosh.
Speaker 2: Oh okay. So the potato famine began in eighteen forty
Speaker 2: five when a fungus like orgasm. Okay, I gotta.
Speaker 1: No, We're in there. That's staying in.
Speaker 2: Orgasm organism. Holy okay, I love this.
Speaker 1: Oh my jaws dropping to the floor just like you said.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, So this fun is like organism spread rapidly
Speaker 2: through the potato crops. My face is probably read. It
Speaker 2: is ruining up to one half of the crops the
Speaker 2: first year and about three quarters of the crops over
Speaker 2: the next seven.
Speaker 1: Years because of one orgasm.
Speaker 2: He so, roughly one million people died of starvation. This
Speaker 2: is a big deal.
Speaker 1: It is like you just brushed off what I said,
Speaker 1: just ignored.
Speaker 2: Me, because we're moving on.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, moving on with that least.
Speaker 2: Are you able to with another million being forced to leave?
Speaker 2: So it was a situation where you either stayed and
Speaker 2: starved or you left.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So the Donelly's decided to seek.
Speaker 1: A better life, and I'm assuming they came to Canada.
Speaker 2: Sure, yes, yes they did so, James, Donnelly, Johanna and
Speaker 2: Donnelly and their son at the time, James Junior, immigrated
Speaker 2: to Canada. Arriving in Canada, they soon welcomed another son
Speaker 2: named Will and they settled in the township I'm going
Speaker 2: to have trouble pronouncing things tonight. The township of Budolph,
Speaker 2: near the town of Luken, just north of London, Ontario.
Speaker 1: Budolf Lucan, the two hard ones.
Speaker 2: They didn't have a lot, but they did have a
Speaker 2: very strong work ethic and began building their homestead. And
Speaker 2: this is interesting. So they laid claim to one hundred
Speaker 2: acres which was basically just land that they decided they
Speaker 2: liked and they picked out and were essentially squatters on.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm like, I do know that it was a
Speaker 1: little bit easier to claim land back in those days.
Speaker 2: That was like more of it was a common practice.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, however, approximately ten years later this would cause some
Speaker 2: problems which I just feel like that would cause problems.
Speaker 2: The land they were Scott squatting on had unknownly been
Speaker 2: sold or least that was like not really something that
Speaker 2: I could totally get in the research. It was either
Speaker 2: sold or at least to him, I don't know, okay, okay,
Speaker 2: to Patrick Farrell, And upon his arrival he was obviously
Speaker 2: very surprised to find the Donnaley's on his land. Could
Speaker 2: you imagine, Hey, yeah, you're.
Speaker 1: Just like, oh, I got this new place. He's a
Speaker 1: new acreage, and then there's just people living in there.
Speaker 2: Like Stoke to like see your new investment, and there's
Speaker 2: people there.
Speaker 1: Like WTF, get off my property, No kidding, off my
Speaker 1: front lawn, you young kids.
Speaker 2: So Patrick took the Donnelly's to court, where the judge,
Speaker 2: recognizing all the improvements to Donnelly's made to the land,
Speaker 2: actually split the land. So fifty acres went to Patrick
Speaker 2: and fifty acres went to the Donnelly's. This outcome to
Speaker 2: nots it well, and hard feelings obviously remained.
Speaker 1: Okay, I that's a tough spot.
Speaker 2: Though they had, like I mean, they were there for
Speaker 2: ten years. They had a lot of work being put
Speaker 2: into this. Yeah, James did a lot of work. It's
Speaker 2: a hard working man.
Speaker 1: Landscaping, farming, all that sort of stuff, building their house,
Speaker 1: building fences, whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it got split in half. In June of
Speaker 2: eighteen fifty seven, Patrick's and James found themselves face to
Speaker 2: face at a barn raising bee. A what a barn
Speaker 2: raising bee?
Speaker 1: Okay, I know what barn raising is, but what do
Speaker 1: you mean a barn raising?
Speaker 2: So it's like a work bee. So they used to
Speaker 2: do this back in the day where if there was
Speaker 2: big projects they need to be done, like a barn
Speaker 2: being made. Yeah, they would have a work bee where
Speaker 2: a lot of the locals would come together and they
Speaker 2: would be provided hard liquor in return for their work.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I was like Ben would be there, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Would, Jimmy Booze, I'll do almost anything, almost anything. Though
Speaker 1: I knew what a barn rays was, but I didn't.
Speaker 1: I've never heard of the b part.
Speaker 2: Yeah, barn raised in work bee. I don't know. I
Speaker 2: just joined the two. Okay, So drinking was obviously involved.
Speaker 2: Words were exchange and Patrick and James got into an argument.
Speaker 1: Fisty cuffs come in.
Speaker 2: Which ultimately ended with Patrick suffering a blow to the
Speaker 2: head from a handspike thrown by James. Oh it didn't
Speaker 2: kill him instantly, but he did die from his injuries
Speaker 2: shortly after, and a warrant was issued for really rest.
Speaker 1: That's brutal that he died from that.
Speaker 2: Well, I think he would.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by a hand spike? Like I
Speaker 1: just thought, like a large nail, Like, what's a.
Speaker 2: HANDSPI didn't research what a handspike was.
Speaker 1: Because I was thinking like like like a large nail,
Speaker 1: maybe a railway spike or something like that.
Speaker 2: The metal hitting in your head. It depends if it
Speaker 2: like jabbed in or what.
Speaker 1: Well, I can't imagine it would jab in.
Speaker 2: Maybe he's a good shot.
Speaker 1: Just ninja throwing star that shit.
Speaker 2: So after the incident, James went into hiding. He successfully
Speaker 2: hid for some time. It was reported for upwards of
Speaker 2: two years. Oh however, in this time, and this was
Speaker 2: kind of funny, there were reports of a new addition
Speaker 2: to the Donnelly farm. A large muscular labor was spotted
Speaker 2: in the field wearing women's clothes. And also Johanna grew
Speaker 2: visually pregnant, so he wasn't far.
Speaker 1: I'm like, that is funny, no kidding, large muscular figure
Speaker 1: wearing women's.
Speaker 2: Clothing doing a farm labor. I love it. I love
Speaker 2: that visual.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: James did eventually turn himself in, saying that Patrick had
Speaker 2: provoked him and started the fight.
Speaker 1: It on it it sounds like it's like manslaughter, like
Speaker 1: he got mad and just threw something Adham and ended
Speaker 1: up killing him. I mean, depending on what a handspike is,
Speaker 1: maybe it's a freaking like a pickaxe or something, right,
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I don't think he went to that work
Speaker 2: being tending, right, He probably don't even know he was
Speaker 2: going to be there. He was sentenced to be hung,
Speaker 2: hanged hung, I don't know how you say that, hanged.
Speaker 2: But Johanna couldn't have this, so she put in a
Speaker 2: petition for mercy, which lowered James's sentenced to seven years.
Speaker 1: Well that's that's a drastic change. It's like either you
Speaker 1: die or you sit here for seven years.
Speaker 2: And I love the power that like a wife could
Speaker 2: have of that MAIDA good for her even think that
Speaker 2: would be listened to nowadays. But something that I hadn't
Speaker 2: mentioned yet is James and Johannah have actually had eight
Speaker 2: children at this point, seven boys and one girl.
Speaker 1: So if you guys can't hear this like stuff, we
Speaker 1: have a dog chewing on a bone, a cat climbing
Speaker 1: all over me right now. It's like it's a disastrike.
Speaker 2: Lock the animals up while we're doing a singation. I
Speaker 2: think so. So Johanna, now head of the family, needed
Speaker 2: to toughen up her boys as there was obviously like
Speaker 2: a lot of work to do. Yeah, and this is
Speaker 2: apparently just what she did, because when James was released
Speaker 2: from prison in eighteen sixty six. His boys were now
Speaker 2: men and tough as new.
Speaker 1: Were they wearing dresses out in the field.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think that got passed on to them.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: They were not afraid to throw a punch and had
Speaker 2: many of their own run ins with the law, and
Speaker 2: I mean many from various accounts of assault, both verbally
Speaker 2: and physical, arson, theft, robbery, assaulting a police officer. They honestly,
Speaker 2: the Donaldi's just had a rap sheet.
Speaker 1: That's a whole ass resume is with that, Like, look
Speaker 1: at how.
Speaker 2: Many boys there were, and like Dad's in jail.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. The whole boys we
Speaker 1: boys stories kind of like it only goes so far,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, but it was and just the Donnelly boys too.
Speaker 2: It was also reported that Johanna had a few run
Speaker 2: ins with the law, herself involved, being Constable Carol. Huh,
Speaker 2: you'll hear that name again, Constable Carol. A local saying went,
Speaker 2: the farther one lives down Roman Line Road, the tougher
Speaker 2: one is and the Donnalies live at the end of
Speaker 2: the road.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, they're tough. I feel like that's almost foreshadowing
Speaker 1: like they live at the end of the room.
Speaker 2: So aside from them having a rougher reputation the land
Speaker 2: dispute that I talked about at the beginning, there was
Speaker 2: also political aspect to this story. The township they they
Speaker 2: were in had a large Irish settler population, and the
Speaker 2: politics from their homelan, of course, didn't disappear when they
Speaker 2: came over here. The Donnelly's were known as Blackfeet. Assuming
Speaker 2: this is all so where because in a lot of
Speaker 2: the research they had the title of the black Donnelly's
Speaker 2: came from stems from when the Britain colonized Ireland. Blackfeet
Speaker 2: were Catholic Irish who chose not to fight the English
Speaker 2: or Protestants and rather live in peace, often doing business
Speaker 2: and becoming friendly with them. Okay, And this was very
Speaker 2: controversial choice because it was considered them not choosing a side.
Speaker 1: Okay, I see, I see. So people are getting angry.
Speaker 1: It's like you gotta you gotta stand up, you gotta
Speaker 1: pick who you're gonna be with. Yeah, okay, so the
Speaker 1: white most cowardly.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because the white boys refuse to live peacefully
Speaker 2: with the English and hated Blackfeet even more than the Protestants.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, okay, I could see it being considered be
Speaker 1: cowardly back in that day sort of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and the township was unfortunately an equal mix
Speaker 2: of these groups. Was just in the situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's all. That's a do a brew waiting
Speaker 1: to uh.
Speaker 2: I don't boil over at you on purpose, because it
Speaker 2: isn't stuck kind of Irish. It is Irish.
Speaker 1: Well there's Irish st there's stew is like all over
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I thought it was kind of an Irish dish.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe it's more prominent in that area, but
Speaker 1: I do know that like stew and soup is like
Speaker 1: came from like every culture.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, here, I thought you were like doing something
Speaker 2: well no.
Speaker 1: No, I was just thinking that like tempers would have
Speaker 1: been stewing. So I said that was a stu.
Speaker 2: A time though, make jokes like that and yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 2: Before I move on to talk about the Donnelly's stage
Speaker 2: coach Endeavor, which is quite.
Speaker 1: Exciting stage coach en Devor, which.
Speaker 2: Is quite excited exciting, I wanted to note that many
Speaker 2: articles I read mentioned that Donnelly's weren't the only family
Speaker 2: up to no good. Many communities in Ontario in the
Speaker 2: nineteenth century dealt with numerous crimes and the bringing bringing
Speaker 2: criminal criminals criminal. I can't speak bringing criminals criminals because
Speaker 2: always wasn't always easy either. Many constables themselves were untrained
Speaker 2: or criminals as well. And for many reasons, the courts
Speaker 2: didn't or couldn't always handle reasonal punishments. Witnesses would fear testifying,
Speaker 2: jurys would not convict. There are just many reasons why
Speaker 2: the lawback then had some issues. So now in the
Speaker 2: in the eighteen seventies, William Donnelly started a stage coach line,
Speaker 2: which is really cool and it was a huge success entrepreneur.
Speaker 2: I know they were like hard work and peepes the
Speaker 2: but this actually got the Donnelly family more unwanted enemies
Speaker 2: because they were doing really well. Of course, the Donnelly
Speaker 2: success caused one of their competitors to sell their business
Speaker 2: to Patrick Flanagan, who wanted nothing more than to see
Speaker 2: the Donnay's fail. Of course, of course, you imagine buying
Speaker 2: a business just to like make sure your enemy fails.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, it's not that it was an enemy,
Speaker 1: but remember that one time when we were younger and you're, well,
Speaker 1: you still are, but you're obsessed with Lululemon, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I should start a company and call it
Speaker 1: La La Lime, and I should take over.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that would have gone well.
Speaker 1: I think it would have been like a boom in business,
Speaker 1: just saying I do think. I think it would have
Speaker 1: been like amazing.
Speaker 2: It could have been, I'll get all it could have been.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's copyrighted now officially, by the way, because it's
Speaker 1: documented on this.
Speaker 2: So if you ever see that store pop up, you
Speaker 2: no Ben's bend.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: So the rival between these two began. It was extremely violent,
Speaker 2: with arson, fistfights and attacks on each other's animals. I
Speaker 2: hate when there's animal things. I just like, I'm an animal,
Speaker 2: don't affect the animals.
Speaker 1: It's a whole new level because it's like, okay, humans,
Speaker 1: like we can think for ourselves, we can defend ourselves.
Speaker 1: We are not always but generally putting ourselves into these
Speaker 1: situation where these animals are innocent. Yeah, they're just helpless bystanders.
Speaker 2: They don't hurt them.
Speaker 1: Not that a person can't be a helpless bystander, but
Speaker 1: it's not always the case where it is always the
Speaker 1: case that the animals that helpless bystander.
Speaker 2: Yes after the Shenanigans, the Donnelly is if they didn't
Speaker 2: already get blamed for most things, they got blamed for
Speaker 2: pretty much almost every crime committed going for it sweet,
Speaker 2: though few convictions were ever secured against them, as the
Speaker 2: allegations were usually based on nothing they did have. I
Speaker 2: did want to know they did have some friends and
Speaker 2: some alled alleys allies, allies.
Speaker 1: They had some alleys alleys and some orgasms that you
Speaker 1: couldn't fathom.
Speaker 2: But the majority of the township just hated the Donnellys.
Speaker 2: Gotcha hated them, which is sad. In eighteen seventy nine,
Speaker 2: Father John Connolly arrived at Saint Patrick's Roman Catholic Church.
Speaker 1: I got a sentence you good job, he was doing well,
Speaker 1: keep going.
Speaker 2: He was greeted with many stories of the Donnelly's, so
Speaker 2: decided to take action by creating a Peace Society.
Speaker 1: Okay, good for him. I like this, do you.
Speaker 2: I don't think you should, but.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, he's he's trying to make peace between them.
Speaker 2: I guess. Member of the members of the society agreed
Speaker 2: to have their home search for stolen properly. But the
Speaker 2: Donnellys apparently did not sign this pledge.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I still hung up. And why I shouldn't
Speaker 1: like this peace thing. It's basically a peace treaty, right,
Speaker 1: He's all like, we can be friends, guys.
Speaker 2: I mean, his tensions might have been good, but he
Speaker 2: also and I don't have this in my notes, but
Speaker 2: he also seemed like he developed an opinion of the
Speaker 2: Donnaley's from just listening to all the people without even
Speaker 2: really getting to know them himself.
Speaker 1: Okay, so maybe there was like a hidden mode of
Speaker 1: behind them.
Speaker 2: I think so, because yeah, he wanted to have like
Speaker 2: the property search, and he was expecting that to go
Speaker 2: into the Donalis there would be like all the stolen
Speaker 2: goods and stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay. Yes, my assumption of this was that he's like,
Speaker 1: well the name sounds yeah, He's like, we can bring
Speaker 1: everyone together, we can put this all behind us. That
Speaker 1: was my assumption.
Speaker 2: But okay, so from this group, a splinter group is formed, okay,
Speaker 2: and they are called the Vigilance Community Committee.
Speaker 1: Vigilance Committee. Okay, I got your committee. I was expecting
Speaker 1: some like very villainous name, but that's that's like I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's like a blockwatch committee, you know, like
Speaker 1: we gotta make sure there's no no Dix or Roberts
Speaker 1: or anything on this rah you know sort of thing. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, all the Karen's getting together making sure that
Speaker 1: the block watch is all good. Yeah, that's kind of
Speaker 1: what's going on.
Speaker 2: Thing, I like where your mind goes. So part of
Speaker 2: the committee is Constable James Carroll, who is bound and
Speaker 2: determined to stand up to the Donnelly's.
Speaker 1: Okay, to stand up to them, But I just feel
Speaker 1: like it's.
Speaker 2: So odd that a constable is part of this committee, right,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I just thought that was weird.
Speaker 1: It's a really weird situation. You have some religious dudes
Speaker 1: starting all this and then a constable being part of
Speaker 1: this committee is like, it's very very backwood stuff going on.
Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty much the Donnali's against the town. Really.
Speaker 2: I feel like all.
Speaker 1: Because they were squatters originally, hey, basically.
Speaker 2: That's how it started. But they they have gotten themselves
Speaker 2: into a lot of situations too, Like there was long
Speaker 2: lists of tons of times that they've been like arrested.
Speaker 2: If I could probably have an hour podcast on just
Speaker 2: all cheese so not long after the vigilance Committee is formed,
Speaker 2: William Thompson, a local farmer, notices that one of his
Speaker 2: cows is missing, and of course blames Of course, the
Speaker 2: committee is on it, though, and decides to go over
Speaker 2: to the Donnelly's to search the farm for the missing cow.
Speaker 1: So hold on, I just want to say one thing here.
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but I almost feel bad for
Speaker 1: the Donalies, Like I'm at their defense right now. I'm
Speaker 1: full I'm fully expecting that to turn right around and
Speaker 1: me to realize that they're complete assholes. For some reason,
Speaker 1: I'm just feeling really bad for them, like they're the
Speaker 1: victims of the situation here.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if it will turn around for you.
Speaker 1: Actually, oh shit, okay, okay, But.
Speaker 2: Honestly, like I kind of felt that vibe too when
Speaker 2: I was researching it a bit like I don't know,
Speaker 2: just I mean, they did so many they did so
Speaker 2: many bad things, but it was just like at that
Speaker 2: time a lot of people were doing bad things, but
Speaker 2: there was a lot of them, and I don't know, Okay, now,
Speaker 2: where the heck was I oh right, the cow?
Speaker 1: The cow? Yeah, the cow?
Speaker 2: Okay, So there was no cow. No cow turned up
Speaker 2: the Donnelly's. The cow has found later and had simply
Speaker 2: just gotten out. It's thought the whole trespassing incident was
Speaker 2: set up so they could inspect the Donnelly farm.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I could see that.
Speaker 2: The Donnelly's charged the group obviously with trespassing. Numerous arrests
Speaker 2: were made, but in the trial it said that James
Speaker 2: gave them permission to come on the property, so charges
Speaker 2: were dropped.
Speaker 1: But diddy, no, Well, who the hell said that? Like?
Speaker 1: Who said that they had permission? That?
Speaker 2: Just like remember how a little bit earlier I said
Speaker 2: that not everything goes like the right way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, sorry, one of those. I'm a feeling I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be hung up on a lot of little things
Speaker 1: like that I already have.
Speaker 2: In the eighteen eighties, the Vigilance Committee strikes again. Their
Speaker 2: plan was to burn down a barn and blame the
Speaker 2: Donalies to heighten outrage and I imagine get more supporters.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: The night they planned to do this, the Donnelly's they
Speaker 2: had wanted to blame, were at a dance, so James
Speaker 2: and Johann Johannah got blamed. Which sorry I changed, I
Speaker 2: put my page. This was a terrible planel because at
Speaker 2: that point both of them are like quite elderly, and
Speaker 2: even the Donnelly's worst enemies could see the case against
Speaker 2: them was quite weak. The trial was set to start
Speaker 2: on February fourth, eighteen eighty.
Speaker 1: I'm like dumbfounded right now. I'm waiting. I need to
Speaker 1: know how this turns out, because like, how are they
Speaker 1: going to get away with just I'm going to burn
Speaker 1: down my own barn and blame these people, like what.
Speaker 2: So the night before the trial, the family, the Donnelley family,
Speaker 2: was busy in preparation. James and Johannah had a house full,
Speaker 2: their niece Bridget was visiting from Ireland, and Thomas Donnelly
Speaker 2: was also home, and a thirteen year old farm boy
Speaker 2: named Johnny O'Connor was over to help care for the
Speaker 2: farm chores while the Donnelly's were going to be at
Speaker 2: the trial. At the trial, John Donnelly had head headed
Speaker 2: over to his brothers Williams that lived nearby to borrow
Speaker 2: a sleigh to take the family to the court the
Speaker 2: following day, but decided to spend the night there.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, I feel like this is just going down,
Speaker 1: like this rabbit hole.
Speaker 2: Of Shit's committee, however, had another plan for their evening.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: The committee was very unhappy as they figured James and
Speaker 2: Johanna would be found not guilty of burning down the barn.
Speaker 1: Well, it's because they're not.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, approximately thirty of the Donnelley's most bitter enemies
Speaker 2: gathered with weapons and liquor and decided to take matters
Speaker 2: into their own hands.
Speaker 1: It's not a good old mob if you don't have liquor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they need the liquor. Yeah, definitely, just after midnight
Speaker 2: with some liquid, courage.
Speaker 1: Consumed he actually have that in your notes?
Speaker 2: I do. I was like, I gotta put that in there.
Speaker 2: I'll forget. The angry mob, led by Constable Carrol, storm
Speaker 2: over to the Donnelly household.
Speaker 1: These guys are dicks.
Speaker 2: When they arrive, they surround the property and Constable Carol
Speaker 2: barges to the front door, creating an element of surprise.
Speaker 2: I mean I would be freaking freaked right out of
Speaker 2: someone kidding as I look at.
Speaker 1: The door, I would definitely be surprised.
Speaker 2: Thomas, the strongest family member president, was handcuffed immediately. Commotion
Speaker 2: obviously woke the household James requested to see a warrant,
Speaker 2: but Carol didn't have one. At that point, Carol singled, signaled, signaled,
Speaker 2: signaled for the other men to storm in the house,
Speaker 2: and they did. They stormed in there in a brutal
Speaker 2: attackez this and this right here like shows how it
Speaker 2: was a brutal weapons of choice pitchforks, shovels, clubs, and axes.
Speaker 1: Okay that as soon as you said that there was
Speaker 1: like twenty to thirty of them, like liquor and like weapons.
Speaker 1: I literally first thing I pictured pitchforks.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm back in the day, and yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a mob. I'm surprised they didn't have flaming torches
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's also the what you kind of
Speaker 2: have for like a zombie apocalypse so too.
Speaker 1: I mean definitely, if you're out in a farm, you're
Speaker 1: gonna find those things, So that's what you're gonna grab. Yeah,
Speaker 1: although my zombie apocalypse weapon of choice a wooden baseball
Speaker 1: bet just.
Speaker 2: Saying oh with the root barb or is that what
Speaker 2: you barb o? What do you call? What? Din't the
Speaker 2: guy from the Walking Dead house?
Speaker 1: Oh Meagan had barbed wire rubb. I think you were
Speaker 1: thinking rebar, which is bar?
Speaker 2: Is that how you say it?
Speaker 1: Well, no, it's it's barbed wire is what he had.
Speaker 1: But rebar is the word I think you had in
Speaker 1: your head, and that is like it's a thick bar
Speaker 1: they use for like foundations and buildings and stuff.
Speaker 2: Okay, old rhubarb, but I feel like that would do
Speaker 2: the trick.
Speaker 1: Just beat a freaking zombie over the head with a vegetable.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Okay, So the episode, though, I think
Speaker 2: it really shows that I actually need a day off.
Speaker 1: I think so because or you need to drink a
Speaker 1: little bit more of your drink over there for my
Speaker 1: liquid courage.
Speaker 2: H The first of all was James Donnelly. He was
Speaker 2: beaten rapidly, his skull being hit repeatedly. Johanna fought hard
Speaker 2: but was eventually beaten to the ground as well. Thomas,
Speaker 2: though handcuffed, was fighting extremely hard to protect his family.
Speaker 2: He eventually got to the front door, but was met
Speaker 2: with a pitchfork that was thrusted in him numerous times.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, that hurts. Bridget had escaped upstairs, but
Speaker 2: she was found hiding and was beaten until she was limp.
Speaker 2: The four bodies were brought into the kitchen, where they
Speaker 2: continued to beat them, even though I feel like they
Speaker 2: were already dead. One quote said, hit the fellow on
Speaker 2: the head with that shovel and break his head open.
Speaker 2: So thomas head was continued to be bashed in three
Speaker 2: to four more times.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that is insane.
Speaker 2: The men apparently also bashed in the dog's head. I
Speaker 2: was like, leave the breaking dog.
Speaker 1: This is literally mob mentality, like yeah.
Speaker 2: The house was then lit on fire and the mob
Speaker 2: proceeded over to William Donnelly's house. You'll remember, though, that
Speaker 2: the Donnelly's had the fifth house guest there, the little
Speaker 2: thirteen year old Johnny O'Connor.
Speaker 1: He was Johnny.
Speaker 2: He was missed during all this commotion as he was
Speaker 2: hiding under the bed and was luckily able to break
Speaker 2: free from the house. After the vigilantes had left quote
Speaker 2: unquote vigilantes vigilantes. He ran to the nearest neighbor and
Speaker 2: told them what happened. As the committee arrived at William's house,
Speaker 2: it was actually John Donnelly who opened the door. He
Speaker 2: was spending the night there. As soon as he opened
Speaker 2: the door, he was immediately shot, while William and his
Speaker 2: wife hidden inside hoping the mob would leave. They actually
Speaker 2: did eventually leave, saying there's enough bloodshed tonight, boys, let's
Speaker 2: go home.
Speaker 1: Jesus, enough bloodshed. Wow.
Speaker 2: So see like that, I just like, maybe back in
Speaker 2: the day, that was just how you solve stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's definitely not how you should solve stuff.
Speaker 1: I mean I understand, like it's not. They weren't as
Speaker 1: progressive as we are today, for sure. I understand violence
Speaker 1: was a lot more ingrained into the society. Yeah, like
Speaker 1: accept it. However, that does not mean we disagree with
Speaker 1: these people. So let's go bash their head in with
Speaker 1: a shovel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like they So five lives are taken
Speaker 2: that night, Jesus, that's a lot of lives. That left
Speaker 2: only four surviving, Donnelly's Jenny, Patrick, William, and Robert because
Speaker 2: two of the kids had previously passed away, one from
Speaker 2: an illness and one from a knife fight.
Speaker 1: From a knife fight.
Speaker 2: From a knife fight.
Speaker 1: I was not expecting that.
Speaker 2: From at a different time.
Speaker 1: I was thinking, like an accident on the farm and illness,
Speaker 1: but a knife fight just out of nowhere, Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: that's interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe that's the way to go, Like.
Speaker 1: I would not want to die of a knife fight.
Speaker 2: No. The funeral service was conducted by Father John Connolly,
Speaker 2: the same priest that initially started the Peace Society, which
Speaker 2: I thought, I don't know, I just thought that was interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 2: the church was packed. Some were shocked, others were relieved
Speaker 2: because the Donnelly's are down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm sure others were probably like laughing and bragging.
Speaker 2: Well, and then some of the vigilantes even were in attendance,
Speaker 2: including Constable Carrol. Like, gosh, if you had part of this,
Speaker 2: like don't go to the funeral, right, feel like that's
Speaker 2: just like nice human one a one. Johnny was as
Speaker 2: well there, including several reporters. So October fourth, eighteen eighty,
Speaker 2: the first trial begins in London, Ontario. It's for Constable Carro,
Speaker 2: who was charged for the murder of Johannah Donnelly. Johnny
Speaker 2: O'Connor testified the little boy. Yeah, even though apparently the
Speaker 2: vigilantes did pretty much everything they could to stop him,
Speaker 2: including setting his house on fire. Holy fun, because apparently
Speaker 2: that family was kind of friends. I guess with the Donnelly's,
Speaker 2: they I mean, they weren't against them, and so they
Speaker 2: didn't like them because of that. And then also they
Speaker 2: didn't want this little boy to testify.
Speaker 1: Wow, good on this little boy, because you imagine being
Speaker 1: thirteen years old.
Speaker 2: I no, he's still he's still Like everything I read,
Speaker 2: he was like, still gun ho to go about it.
Speaker 2: He's like, good for you.
Speaker 1: Right, Johnny is like Johnny's the badass of the day
Speaker 1: right here.
Speaker 2: With this trial, the jury claimed they couldn't reach a
Speaker 2: verdict though one and this was interesting, one jury declaring
Speaker 2: he would never convic Carol, even if you've seen the
Speaker 2: killings happening himself. What I was like, well, I mean
Speaker 2: I think it's just because everyone's like so against the Donnelly's.
Speaker 2: The second are you okay? I am just The second
Speaker 2: trial started the following year, with the testimony being very similar,
Speaker 2: but this time Carol was found not guilty. Are rest
Speaker 2: of the prisoners are granted bail and never to be
Speaker 2: tried again. What so despite eyewitnessing eyewitnesses seeing the vigilante
Speaker 2: committee making their way to the Donnaley's, Johnny O'Connor being
Speaker 2: under the bed and seeing all this shit go down,
Speaker 2: and William donne also had testified because he saw his
Speaker 2: brother being gunned down in the house. The courts never
Speaker 2: convicted a single person for the massacre. I didn't saying
Speaker 2: it wrong.
Speaker 1: Again, for the manicure the massacre, I can't say it
Speaker 1: right now, massacre, massacre, the massacre, not the manicure, the massacre.
Speaker 2: I think you got that right that time, Okay, But honestly,
Speaker 2: something else I read, anything other than this would have
Speaker 2: probably caused a huge backlash. Why because everyone hated the dominies,
Speaker 2: and like, I think there would have just been like
Speaker 2: riots and stuff. So I mean, not that I'm saying
Speaker 2: that this that was like how the outcome had to
Speaker 2: have been, but like, I feel like there was just
Speaker 2: outside pressures for this, because there definitely was witnesses and
Speaker 2: testimonies and stuff. But yeah, there literally no one to
Speaker 2: this day has paid for these murders.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely ridiculous. Every single one of those people
Speaker 1: are fucking trash yeap, Holy fuck. I thought the Donnelly's
Speaker 1: were gonna be like a fucking like murderous family like
Speaker 1: the Picton's or some shit.
Speaker 2: Well remember he did murder well the one by accident.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think that was intentionally he threw something
Speaker 1: at the dude, came out of rage. Maybe it was
Speaker 1: a fucking dangerous thing that he did, but I don't
Speaker 1: think he intended to kill him.
Speaker 2: No, And I mean the Donnelly's did a lot. Like
Speaker 2: with the stagecoach thing. There was reports where they they
Speaker 2: would go and hurt their competitors horses and stuff, but
Speaker 2: then the competitors did the same thing.
Speaker 1: Back to that, and it's it's the two sides of
Speaker 1: the coin. You have a war going back and forth.
Speaker 1: What are they supposed to do? Sit back? They have
Speaker 1: an entire town against them.
Speaker 2: Well because remember too up prior to like the land issues,
Speaker 2: they were just doing their own thing for ten years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I.
Speaker 2: Feel like I don't know. So yeah, no one, no
Speaker 2: one paid a single price for for this mass murder.
Speaker 1: That is crazy.
Speaker 2: So that's the story. See I did one that had that.
Speaker 2: You were like, oh, you mean it doesn't have a
Speaker 2: solid end, but I feel like kind of it does.
Speaker 2: It just wasn't justified.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that definitely was not a justification ending. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's people out there, well not out there now, they've
Speaker 1: clearly passed away, but they're like their families are out there,
Speaker 1: and it's like they just went on with their lives,
Speaker 1: and they just went on to pro create and do
Speaker 1: their farming or whatever.
Speaker 2: And it would be interesting to know if that Carol
Speaker 2: the Constable was still.
Speaker 1: He's the biggest stick of them all, just saying that
Speaker 1: guy can go fuck himself.
Speaker 2: He's the one you have the most problem with.
Speaker 1: Yes, he's he's a freaking officer and he's joining this
Speaker 1: apparently vigilante committee. He's literally the fucking Karen in the
Speaker 1: block Watch. But he has all these like hidden agendas.
Speaker 1: He's only doing it because Tina down the street has chickens.
Speaker 1: She's not supposed to have chickens, and I can hear
Speaker 1: them making noise and it wakes my dogs up.
Speaker 2: Well, I think he wanted to be the one that
Speaker 2: brought the Donnelly's down. He's a dick under his.
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit what he wants. He's a dick.
Speaker 2: Yes, you really feel.
Speaker 1: Do you want me to use a sea word? Because
Speaker 1: I thought halfway through this I could call him seaword
Speaker 1: Constable Carol.
Speaker 2: So that's the story. There you have it, Damn. That
Speaker 2: was It's a very historic story, and I feel like
Speaker 2: there's a lot of different sources out there, and I
Speaker 2: mean there's been like plays and books and everything, so
Speaker 2: you could really dive into this this case and learn
Speaker 2: probably times more.
Speaker 1: But when you said it was really hard to get
Speaker 1: the fact straight on this though, too, Hey, it was
Speaker 1: considering it's like an like no trial was seen through really,
Speaker 1: and it's like a false ending to the trial was.
Speaker 2: Not correct so long ago, and there's just each source
Speaker 2: had like little tidbits of different different info, which I
Speaker 2: found interesting. It would it would be similar, but like
Speaker 2: there'd be like little differences.
Speaker 1: Well, like what were some of the differences though, Oh,
Speaker 1: you're really putting me on the spot here. Well, you
Speaker 1: can't think of anything off the top of your your head,
Speaker 1: can I? Well, like you said like they weren't sure
Speaker 1: if they owned or leased the land.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that was one thing.
Speaker 1: Anything else and it was all like minor details. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's not like five were dead or seven dead. It's
Speaker 1: nothing like that, right.
Speaker 2: No, No, okay, no, it wasn't. It wasn't stuff like that.
Speaker 2: It was just yeah, I'm trying to like look through
Speaker 2: my notes. I didn't write down.
Speaker 1: Well, it's not pertinent. I was just curious as long
Speaker 1: as it's not major information.
Speaker 2: It was a major information, it was just different, different
Speaker 2: way of telling, not even like the most.
Speaker 1: Important bits of the story gotcha.
Speaker 2: So but then it just like kind of played with
Speaker 2: me and I was like, what the heck, like I
Speaker 2: want to know exactly. So then I'd read like different
Speaker 2: things and try to pick the one that was like the.
Speaker 1: Most common from good sources. Of course.
Speaker 2: Oh there's also Oh I should have wrote it down.
Speaker 2: There was uh, there's like a brewery. I can't remember
Speaker 2: a craft beer place now that is about the Donnelly's.
Speaker 1: Really where do you know where?
Speaker 2: I'm assuming in Ontario, like I think it was where
Speaker 2: all this stuff went down, But we should.
Speaker 1: Go there one day. I want to go there, I know.
Speaker 2: Because I think there was the gravesite. There was a
Speaker 2: little bit about that, and they had to remove the
Speaker 2: the tombstone because it kept getting like vandalized and stuff,
Speaker 2: which that was really crappy, but it has been replaced.
Speaker 2: At one point they were letting people go in there
Speaker 2: because it was just I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: wanted to go see and stuff. Right. I don't know
Speaker 2: if you can go in at this point, but I
Speaker 2: think that'd be really interesting not.
Speaker 1: Being vandalized by freaking constable Carol's bratty ass kids.
Speaker 2: I don't know, probably just bratty kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that was a good case though, well done.
Speaker 2: So there you have it. Yeah, it's very interesting. I
Speaker 2: would be interested to read a book about it, Actually
Speaker 2: I would. I would like to dive in a little
Speaker 2: bit deeper even after Yeah, well maybe.
Speaker 1: We should dive in switch you can figure out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we appreciate you guys being here. Don't forget to
Speaker 1: check us out on Instagram at Wicked and Grim. Well,
Speaker 1: of course, make sure we post a little selfie. Actually
Speaker 1: we should. We haven't taken a selfie yet. We'll take
Speaker 1: a little selfie.
Speaker 2: Wait, I'm wearing the same shirt that all the selfies
Speaker 2: are in though, so we can't why I'll have to
Speaker 2: change you can it change?
Speaker 1: Okay, So Nichole's got a change and then we'll post
Speaker 1: a selfie. But by the time that happens, it'll be
Speaker 1: it'll be up on Instagram and you guys can go
Speaker 1: check us out. You can go see that selfie. And
Speaker 1: of course we appreciate you being here.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so stay wicked friends. Yeah, see you later Peace,