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Speaker 1: And then we'll get going. All right, welcome everybody. We're

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going to have a real treat tonight. We have a

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distinguished scholar with us tonight to debate. Before we get going.

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I want to make sure that everybody can hear us. Okay,

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and the sound is good. If you would let me

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in the chat, know by just hitting one. Just type

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me a one, and as soon as I see a one,

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we'll start going and I'll hand it over to our moderator.

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One little house cleaning point at the beginning, I would

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just say that since the channel was demonetized two days

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ago right before this, if you want to support my work,

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you can support me directly at the site. The link

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is in the description below, and I also have doctor

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Shaber's link as well to his page. And then also

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our host tonight will be our moderator will be from

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the Calliopian Club, and he has agreed to be our adjudicator.

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He's gonna set us straight. He's gonna watch make sure

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nobody's trying anything. I'm just kidding. So if you want

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to take over now for us, I will hand it

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over to you, mister mad.

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Speaker 2: Yep, no worries. So Kasan one of the mods on

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callipink club, so twitch streamer. We'll go with that later.

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So the setup for this debate as it currently stands

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is fifteen minute opening statements from both participants, fifteen minute

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butt rebuttal from both participants, a ten minute cross examination

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from each participant, in which during each person's cross examination,

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one person who's allowed to ask the questions one must

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respond the question. Asker ken interrupt during this section. Right,

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there's another section of this ten minute cross examination for

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twenty minutes, and then you have seven minutes closing statements each,

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which we'll make for a one hour fifty four total discussion,

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after which we'll go through the chat try and pick

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out some interesting questions and go over those. So we

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have our two interlocutors today, let's go. We have doctor Ali,

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doctor Shabir Ali, who's a doctorate in religious studies from

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the University of Toronto, specializing in coronic exegesis. His host

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of the television show Let the Quran Speak and president

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of the Islamic Information and Doa Center International in Toronto.

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Welcome Dr Ali.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, my pleasures to be on.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much. The other person we have here,

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obviously is Jay Dyer Jadier is the writer for Esoteric

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Hollywood Sex, Calts and Symbols in Film and the Analysis

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for jays Analysis dot com. He's the co host for

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Hollywood Decoded and an Orthodox philosopher, with two written releases

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slated for twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Jay, Thank you, glad to be here.

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Speaker 3: Sweet.

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Speaker 2: Now, you guys want to have some gentlemen's agreement about

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who go first, or we can flip a coin.

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Speaker 3: It's up to you. I think I think you can

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go for us. Normally, the positive statesment in school first,

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the affirmative position, Sweet.

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Speaker 2: So, to be very clear, the debate topic is, is

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Jesus God incarnate answers from scripture, history and logic. We

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have Jay on the affirmative and doctor Ali on the negative.

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So we'll set the time of fifteen minutes and when

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you're ready, Joe, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, thank you. Yeah. I'll start out by saying that

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my training course is as a philosopher. I'm not a

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textual scholar. I do have some knowledge of textual issues,

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but I do know scripture pretty well, and I know

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the history of the Church, and I know philosophy recently.

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So my argumentation will focus mainly on how as a

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system we interpret and understand the scriptures, how they confirm Christ,

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and then how history and logic do as well. So

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I'll begin with a quote. Our governing presubposition is stated well,

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I think in letter eighty two of Saint Augustine to Jerome,

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where he says that there's anything in the biblical texts

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as he possessed them that appeared to be corrupted or

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appeared to have translator errors or copyist errors. He was

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willing to admit that there were copyist errors or that

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he failed to understand them. So we have a governing

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presupposition of belief that's going to determine our interpretive matrix

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or framework. So I'm going to start my analysis by

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looking at the Old Testament itself. For us, the strongest argument,

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we would say, beginning with Genesis is the relationship of

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each one of the covenants as they're revealed in Genesis.

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So in Genesis we have the notion of that the

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covenant made with Adam, as the minor prophets say, we

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have the covenant that has broken. This is then made

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with Noah. We have a covenant made with Abraham. We

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have a covenant made with Moses. And there's many places

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actually in the Torrad that explicate that the covenant made

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with Moses is in perfect continuity with the covenant made

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with Abraham. And so from the Mosaic covenant, the next

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one in that line is the Dividic covenant. And so

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we see all of these as one covenant, and they

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come to a consummation in the person of Christ, the

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second person of the Godhead for our view, incarnate by

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the Virgin Mary. Right, So in that regard, when we

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look back at redemptive history, we see a logical process

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and a logical flow through each one of these covenants

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that in no way entails some kind of vast contradiction.

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So granted, there are situations where aspects of the Mosaic

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ceremonies that were given to the Jews for us, they

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actually typified the Melchizedecian priesthood, the priesthood that is from

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all eternity Hebrews, if you believe Paul wrote, Hebrews describes

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the eternal priesthood that we have in Christ. And so

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actually the levitical priesthood that's later given is based on

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the priesthood of Melchizedic. And that is because Melchizedic typified

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himself the person of Christ. So when we look at

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the Old Testament, not only do we see this unfolding

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revelation of God bringing humanity back to himself after the

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fall in the garden, we see a logical process to

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the theology and the revelation that occurs. It's not all

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at once. God doesn't tell everything to Agrahm, he doesn't

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tell everything to Joseph, he doesn't tell everything to Moses.

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There's a progressive revelation, and we would say that based

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on what Deuteronomy says, especially thirteen, you cannot have later

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revelation that comes into conflict with what is given in

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prior revelation. So everything that must come later must conform

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to the prior. So when we look at the major

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and minor prophets, when they make many times distinctions about

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the one like the son of Man riding the chariot,

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who is identified as Divinity, we can't or in Daniel seven,

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for example, we can't say, well, those are corruptions, those

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are out of accord with what was given in Torah,

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because they are as the current itself says, those were

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the prophets. I'm going to get into it later when

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I'm sure when doctor Shabir replies, he will mention many

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things that he thinks are corrupt or inconsistencies. But let's

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focus still on the Old Testament while we're here, and

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note that for us, the Messianic prophecies don't just start

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with or lay out something that's related to covenants. That

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actually goes a lot further than that, right, It actually

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goes into these many Theophanies. So if we start with

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the Theophanes. In Genesis one, we have God walking in

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the garden, we have God coming to Abraham and Abraham,

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and in Genesis twelve when he's called, it is identified

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as God himself, who speaks to Abraham face to face.

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When we look at fifteen one, four seven, and then

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into sixteen with Hagar herself, Hagar says I saw God

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face to face eighteen one and nineteen one, we get

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the same language in Imagery twenty four, forty eight, twenty eight,

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Genesis thirty one, eleven, and thirty two thirty right, the

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wrestling with an angel are wrestled with God himself face

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to face Genesis thirty five to one, Genesis forty eight,

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fifteen sixteen, where we are told that the Angel of

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the Lord, the same angel, this mysterious figure who was

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sent by Yahweh, who wrestled with right Jacob, he redeemed me.

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We angels don't redeem right. So when we come to Exodus,

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we find similar language in imagery Exodus three four through six,

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Exodus three fifteen, Exodus fifteen five through eight, Exodus twenty three,

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twenty two, twenty to twenty three, Exodus thirty three one

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through three. What we find there is the Angel of

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the Lord has the name of Yahweh placed in him. Now,

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God doesn't give his name to another, as we're told.

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Oftentimes are the Muslims like to cite Isaiah, I do

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not give my glory to another in my name. But

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here God is putting his name in his angel. Now

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angel just means messenger. It could be a human, it

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could be an angelic being or which you're created, or

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it can be a divine houpostasis for us, a divine person.

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So we would say that if we look at the

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revelation of the Old Tustam as a whole, just from

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these theophanies, and by the way, this continues into numbers

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one two, even to Balam Joshua five Judges thirteen. Right,

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Manoah says, I have seen God face to face. Moses

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walks up on the mountain sees God face to face.

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How is this possible if no man can see God

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and live?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 1: Because there is a way for God to see, for

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man to see God and to live. And that's because

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all of these actions, as well as all these covenants,

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anticipate the incarnation of the logos, the incarnation of Christ himself.

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If we look at Messianic prophecies, we will see a

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similar pattern. Genesis three fifteen, the seed of the woman

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will crush the head of the serpent. This ironic because

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we know, of course that this is fulfilled in our

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view in Mary and the Son of Mary, who crushed

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the head of the serpent. Satan at the cross or

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the death of Christ was predicted all through the Old Testament.

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Many of the psalms predict the struggling and death of

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the Messiah. That he wilfully went under. This wasn't taken

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from him, as if God didn't wilfully allow this right,

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He did all that wilfully. We say. We look at

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Genesis twelve, fifteen, seventeen twenty two with the calling of Abraham.

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What do we see there? We see a prophecy that

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when the Messiah comes, the gentile nations will convert. They

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will be brought into this one covenant that I mentioned

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early on, the Covenant from Adam all the way up,

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they will begin to convert and worship the God of Israel.

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That's happened for two thousand years. That happened for hundreds

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and hundreds of years before the advent of Islam. So

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all of these messianic prophecies, which by the way, the

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Quran will admit, as we will see, I have within

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the first tense, so us countless examples of the Qur'an

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affirming these Old Testament texts in the stories in these events,

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sometimes passing over and sometimes in very large chunks, which,

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as we will say, I think is one of the

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chief problems for islam view, because we will have so

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many things that we mentioned in the Torrah that are

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nowhere in Islam. And to my knowledge, maybe doctor Shibir

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can enlighten us on this. To my knowledge, they don't

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know where or how those are explained. We will see

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when he replies to course. But some more of these

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prophecies will note the life of certain figures like Joseph.

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The prediction of Genesis forty nine, ten and eleven of

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the Messiah will come, Shiloh will come, the nations will

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turn to the God of Israel when Messiah comes. When

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Shiloh comes, due to one of the signs that says

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will be the removal of the royal House of David, right,

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no more house of David, no more priests to no

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more nation of Israel will interesting that of course in

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Luke twenty one and Matthew twenty before Jesus predicts this

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very thing. He predicts that the destruction of the temple,

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the destruction and removal would come upon the nation of

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Israel as a covenantal curse mentioned at the end of

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Leviticus and at the end of Duronomy the covenant curses

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coming upon Israel due to their rejection of the Messiah.

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So all of that is predicted not just in Jesus,

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but actually going back to Genesis forty nine, ten and eleven,

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we see in the psalms Psalm two twenty two seventy

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two one to ten, admittedly Messianic psalms that of course

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refer to when the Messiah comes as Luke says in

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Luke one and two, he will be given the throne

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of his father David. Right, we believe that that occurred

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in the ascension. The throne of his father David was

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not something on earth. It's in heaven. He is the

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right hand of God, as the Song of Moses says.

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The Song of Moses says that the Angel of the

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Lord the right hand of God. Right, same idea, as,

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same imagery, same person present. We would say, Ezekiel one

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and Ezekiel ten. I think I have that on here somewhere.

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But anyway, Ezekiel one, Ezekiel Yeah. Here it is Ezekiel one,

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Ezekiel ten. We have the reference to the one like

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a son of Man who rides the chariot, right the chariot,

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the glory cloud is seen there, the shki Na is

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seen there. In Ezekiel's vision, the same one like a

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son of Man president in Daniel seven, distinct from the

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ancient of days. Right, who is that? It's the eternal

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son of God. Now, there's many other texts. I could

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give you many other the often Zechariah one, two, three, many,

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many many texts that showed the same idea. Even in

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the Old Covenant of not just a strict monotheism, but

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also father, son, and Spirit. We would say, so, this

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is not a doctrine that developed wholesale out of Paul.

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It's not something that early church fathers invented, something that

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grew out of the tradition of the Old Testament. So

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what really is that debate? Here? In our debate is

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which religion, which system has the best explanation in my

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view of the continuity between the Old and the New Testament,

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in my view of Orthodox Christianity, not Romethicism. Here to

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defend Protestant. Orthodox Christianity is in full continuity, precisely because

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all of these things that are mentioned in the Law

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and the Covenant of the Old Testament, the Book of

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the Covenant of the Koran says was given to Moses,

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these are all in Orthodox Christianity. We have a priesthood,

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we have an altar, we have Pentecost, we have the

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celebration of these things in their fulfillment, and they are

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nowhere right now. They're said to be eternal. Remember, when

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Moses goes up on the mountain, he sees the tupos,

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he sees the types of the things in heaven. He

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institutes this liturgical worship on earth. Hence the Tabernacle, which

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becomes the Temple, is filled with all of this imagery.

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It's filled with It has the altar as all of

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these things, the sacrifices right which as we said, are

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typological of the milkauz Adecian priestood, according to Hebrews, which

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Jesus brought into reality. Hence why at the end of Hebrews,

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Paul says, we have an altar from which those who

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serve at the Jewish Tabernacle no longer have a right

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to eat at, because we have the real altar what

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was in heaven. Christ brought that reality of the liturgical

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worship of Heaven that John sees in the Apocalypse chapter

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four five down to earth, and now it's a reality.

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That's the whole point. That was the whole point of

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Christ coming was to institute the worship of Heaven on earth,

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which again includes all these ideas that are lost, are

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apparently forgotten or arbitrarily ad hoc abrogated. Will have to

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wait and see, or maybe they're all corruptions. I'm interested

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to see if all of these aspects of the Temple

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worship are somehow abrogated or corruptions, given the fact that

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they play such a central role to the unity of

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the Torah. So in that regard, I would say that

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there are many, many New Testament texts, how much more.

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Speaker 4: Time to have I can't really see that warning.

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Speaker 1: Okay, three minutes. Yes, So I would say, when we

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come to the New Testament text we will find a

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strong continuity, not just with Jesus. Right in Matthew when

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he says, not one job or tita will pass away

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until until having on earth right passed away, not one

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job or tita will pass away from the law. This

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is consistent in Jesus as well as in Paul. So

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when we talk about the passing away of the temple

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or this kind of stuff, again, we believe that all

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of those things entered into Orthodox Christianity. Now again you

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can say, well, now you don't have animal sacrifices. Yes,

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but the purpose of the animal sacrifices themselves was to

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point to the sacrifice of Christ. Right, So we do

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possess again a priesthood and a sacrifice and an offering

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and an altar, as Paul says at the end of Hebrews,

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which the rest of the world the rest of the

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religions do not have Judaism, no longer has this alter.

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They no longer have a priesthood. We still have the priesthood. Now,

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remember in the law we're said that these promises are eternal.

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They can't go away, they don't vanish, they can't just

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you know, if the Koran is based on the eternal Koran,

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then the promises that are made right can't just be abrogated.

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It's it would be ad hoc. It would be a

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double standard. So watch for that. But the New Testament text,

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we can look at Matthew one twenty three three three,

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where the John the Baptist prepares the way for Yahweh

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sighting Melican. We can look at Jesus being worshiped in

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Matthew eight three fourteen thirty three, Matthew twelve eight he

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is the Lord of the Saviov, Lord, the Lord of

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the Sabbath. Excuse me. In nine two three four he

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forgives sins. In Matthew ten thirty three, he is equating

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himself with God. Hence why the Pharisees, of course consistently

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get mad at him. And we will find that actually,

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if you look at Mark, most of those texts in

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various ways are also repeated in Mark's account. So lastly,

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in in my last minute, I would sum up one

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last minute, So I will sum up by saying that

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my logical argument is also in a quarter with all

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this theology as well, that when we as Orthodox understand

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the logos not as something in person or generic, but

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rather as the second person of the Godhead, this actually

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gives us a basis for how we understand the rational

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principles behind all things that are made. So even in

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Islam you have the doctrine of Tanzi. And again if

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I mis mistate any of this, he can correct me

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Ta and Zih. In this idea, you have the notion,

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based on I think Sah forty two. If I'm going

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from memory here, that the idea that there's nothing created

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like Allah. If there's nothing created like Allah, then how

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can the words of the Quran explain or match up

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to or have any kind of analogia or truth propositions

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all of which are created, Propositions are on mind, sentences

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are created. How do these words actually tell us anything

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about something radically transcendent that itself presupposes the incarnational principle,

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which is our religion time.

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Speaker 2: All right, doctor Earlie, you have fifteen minutes for your

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opening statement. It's that when you're ready.

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Speaker 3: Sure. Thank you Jay for that delightful presentation. Ladies and

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gentlemen joining us from around the world, Thank you for

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joining us, and our delightful host from the Kellyo Club.

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Thank you as well.

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Speaker 1: Jay.

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Speaker 3: I've listened carefully to your presentation, and when I come

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back for the response period, I will try to engage

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with your specific points. For the moment, I want to

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make a positive presentation of my own case, which will

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be to say that both the Old and the New

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Testaments do not teach that Jesus is God. That will

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be one aspect of my presentation. I also want to

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talk about the history and the logic. As for the logic,

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I will be arguing that it does not seem reasonable

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to attribute to godhead to Jesus, especially as that would

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entail something like the doctrine of the Trinity, which has

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its own inherent logical problems. And as for history, I

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will show that the idea that Jesus is God took

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time to develop. It developed slowly. We can see traces

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of that within the New Testament, and we can see

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later development's post New Testament, where in the Creeds the

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declaration eventually is made, after some deliberation over hundreds of years,

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that Jesus is very God of very God in the

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Council of Nicea three hundred and twenty five eighty, and

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that approximately three hundred years after Jesus and Humvpace had

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been lifted up into heaven. So to proceed, let me

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say something then, about the the chronic attitud you towards Jesus,

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on whom be peace. As a Muslim, I must of

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necessity believe in Jesus, because the Quran mentioned him by

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name twenty five times, never in a negative way, detailing

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for us many of the miracles that Jesus performed. That

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he healed the blind, he cured the leper, he raised

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the dead back to life. The Qoran speaks well of

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Mary and about the annunciation that was made to Mary

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about the special birth of her child, and to her amazement,

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she became pregnant with Jesus, and the Quran celebrates all

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of that. The chapter of the Quran, the nineteenth chapter,

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is called the Chapter of Mary, after the mother of Jesus.

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So as a Muslim, it is necessary for me to

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believe in Jesus, and I wouldn't be a Muslim if

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I didn't believing in Believing in Jesus also entails for

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a Muslim that we do not confuse him with God,

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whom he himself worshiped. Jesus in the Quran is shown

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to proclaimed in Nalaharrabumabu. God is my God, and your

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gods worship him. So how does the Kuran account for

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the fact that some of the people have taken Jesus

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for God. The Quran attributes this to the teaching of

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other people who came after Jesus, and the Quran declares

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that this matter will be settled on the day of Judgment,

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where everyone will be made a prize of the errors

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of their ways. As for looking back at what Jesus

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himself taught, the Quran seems very clear that Jesus and

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humb Peace did not teach that he and his mother

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were divine persons other than the Almighty God. Now, going

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to the logic of this, I've already hinted that the

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idea that Jesus is God entails some logical difficulties. First

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of all, we all agree, and the Gospels bring this

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out very clearly that Jesus was a human being. And

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now a Christian doctrine generally affirms that Jesus was fully

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man and fully God at the same time. And now

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if we ask why couldn't he be part man and

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part God, the answer would be, well, you couldn't be

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part God because either your God or you're not. You

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put halfway there is not really God. Nor does it

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seem right to say that somebody is half man in

401
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the christ theology, because in Christian theology, for God to

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have bridged a gap between humans and God, it was

403
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necessary for God to become man, and not just simply

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a half man, but fully a man, completely man, so

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that the Bible could declare that Jesus was like us

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in every way apart from sin. So he must have

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been human like us in every way apart from sin.

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So to say now that Jesus was very God and

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at the same time fully man, as Christian theology seems

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to require, would involve the logical contradiction in that he

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would have to be finite and infinite at the same time.

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He would have to be the all knowing and yet

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limited in human knowledge, and so on. He would have

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to be perfect and imperfect at the same time. Now,

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saying that Jesus is God leads us to another problem

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which Christians have debated over the centuries. If if Yahweh

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is God, the God of the Old Testament, and the

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Old Testament continues to affirm and Christians agree, and Muslims

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and Jews all agree that Yahweh is the only God,

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for Jesus to be God, then since you cannot have

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two gods, because both the Old and New Testaments affirmed

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that there is only one God, then Jesus must somehow

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be so uniquely related to Yahweh that you cannot have

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two gods. And yet Jesus would be God and also

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his Father would be God. So how can you have

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this without having two gods? Or if we include the

427
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Holy Spirit three well. Christian theologians have worked this out

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in the Doctrine of the Trinity to say that the

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Father is a person, the Holy Spirit is a person,

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the Son is a person. Each one is a distinct

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person that should not be confused for the other. And

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yet the three persons make up one God. So there

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is one divine being but three divine persons. This is

434
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a way of getting around that difficulty. However, the difficulty

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is not entirely surmounted, because when we look at it carefully,

436
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we realize that each one, the Father, the Son, and

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the Holy Spirit in Christian theology, in fact, if not

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in proclamation by himself, must be a complete God. And

439
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how can you avoid them saying that these are three

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deities by just simply calling them persons. Moreover, when you

441
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put the three together, the outcome must be more powerful

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than any of the three individuals considered separately. And so

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do we not have there a fourth entity that is

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made up of the three, or is the combination in

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some way of the three, And wouldn't that fourth entity

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be a more powerful God than either of the three

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considered individually. Moreover, if we say that the Son was

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not known as God in the Old Testament, he came

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to be known through his activities in the New Testament,

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then we must have seen that in the Old Testament

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there was a benitarianism where Christians are saying, there's the Father,

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there's the Holy Spirit. Each one is God a God person,

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but together they are just simply one God. Christians should

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have been affirming within the lifetime of Jesus that there

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is this sanitarianism, and then eventually they would add Jesus

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to the picture to complete this into the triangle of trinitarianism.

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But we don't see any evidence of this beneitarianism having

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existed prior to Christian's eventually developing first benetarianism after Jesus,

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and then eventually trinitarian beliefs. So these are some logical

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difficulties the history I've already alluded to here, but let

461
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me trace it out a little bit more. We can

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see that within the New Testament there is a tendency

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towards promoting Jesus as being more than a human being.

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We see it already in Marx Gospel, but it's more

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so when we compare Marx Gospel with what comes after Mark,

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for example, Matthew and Look. We can see that in

467
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Matthew and Look, Jesus appears to be bigger, greater, more powerful,

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more knowledgeable than he appeared in Mark. And then when

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we go to John's Gospel, by far widely agreed to

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be the last of the four Gospels to be written,

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we see that the image of Jesus has actually been expanded,

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even more so that in John's Gospel we almost see

473
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,359
a different Jesus. Here where Jesus seems to have come

474
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,559
down from heaven and he's going back up there. He

475
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,000
was the loggess of God, the Word of God that

476
00:28:16,039 --> 00:28:18,200
has now become flesh. He is the one through which

477
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,799
everything has been made, and nothing has been made except

478
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,200
through him. He is declared to be the Lamb of God,

479
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:25,319
who takes away the sin of the world. He utters

480
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,000
all of the I am statements. I am the bread

481
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,480
of life, I am the Resurrection and the life. I

482
00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:34,359
am the door of the sheep. No one commits onto

483
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,000
the Father but by me I am. Before Abraham was

484
00:28:38,079 --> 00:28:40,920
I am, and so on. Now all of these I

485
00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:44,480
am statements are found only in the Gospel, according to John,

486
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,559
and it would seem odd that if Jesus had said

487
00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:52,599
these things, which Christians would now take to be clear

488
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,359
proof that he was claiming to be God, it seems

489
00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:58,160
odd that the other three Gospel writers would omit these

490
00:28:58,279 --> 00:29:02,920
very important statements. Brother, the case seems to be, as

491
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,680
James Dunn, the Christian warner, has pointed out, what did

492
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:12,440
you say, fute warning five minutes? Okay, so it seems odd.

493
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,119
As James Done, the Christian scholar pointed out, that these

494
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,400
other gospel writers would fail to include these statements had

495
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,799
it been that Jesus uttered them. What is more likely

496
00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:28,400
is that these statements came to be circulated after Jesus

497
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,039
had left the scene, and it is the fourth gospel

498
00:29:31,119 --> 00:29:34,640
writer that picked these up towards the close of the

499
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,680
first decade of Christianity. And now continuing with that development,

500
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,039
we can see that there is the apostles Creed which

501
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:48,759
speaks about Jesus as the Son of God, and then

502
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:52,039
later on it is the Council of Nicea that eventually

503
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,000
promotes the Son of God to be very God of

504
00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:58,880
very God. And is second a council of Nicea had

505
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,640
to be called to deal with the Holy Spirit, and

506
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,960
then it was declared that the Holy Spirit is to

507
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,759
be worshiped along with the Father as well. So we

508
00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:13,039
see in history and development of this theology it cannot

509
00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:15,400
be credited back to Jesus. It cannot be said that

510
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,160
Jesus actually claimed this. Now, coming to the last prong

511
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:24,039
of my three part argument of scripture, history and logic,

512
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,160
I come now to the scripture. Time does not permit

513
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,519
me to quote many scriptures, but let me give a

514
00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:34,920
broad overview. In the Old Testament, which is basically the

515
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,200
Bible of the Jews. There is no indication that anyone

516
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,519
other than Yahueh is God. Sometimes there is some ambiguity.

517
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:43,480
There is the Angel of the Lord that is spoken

518
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,000
about ambiguously. Is this God? Is this not God? But

519
00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:50,599
let me remind you Jay and everyone here that we

520
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:56,119
cannot build an important doctrine on vagueness. We have to,

521
00:30:56,799 --> 00:31:00,119
especially if that said doctrine is going to be running

522
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,680
contrary to clear texts. Now in the Bible, it is

523
00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:06,279
very clear in the Old Testament especially there is only

524
00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:09,599
one God. That Shama Israeli is there in Deuteronomy chapter six,

525
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,680
verson number four, and that will be quoted by Jesus

526
00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:16,279
in the New Testament in Mark chapter twelve, verse twenty

527
00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:19,200
seven forward, when he's asked what is the greatest of commandments?

528
00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:23,039
So here we see the unity of the two Testaments

529
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,559
on the idea that there is only one God. Moreover,

530
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,440
in the Old Testament that God is not a man.

531
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,359
In Numbers chapter twenty three, verse nineteen, Yahweh declares, I

532
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,599
am God and not Man. So man is shown to

533
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,000
be in contrast with the one God, that which is

534
00:31:39,079 --> 00:31:42,559
called one like a son of Man in Daniel actually

535
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,359
is a representation of the Israelite nation as a whole.

536
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,880
It's a poetic representation, and that is explained within the

537
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,559
same chapter of Daniel from which this passage is taken.

538
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,240
So it is remarkable that people will go to that

539
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,400
one verse and pull it out of its context fail

540
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,000
to read what comes after it within the same chapter,

541
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,319
declaring that what was meant by the son of Man

542
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:12,720
is actually the children of Israel, poetically represented as though

543
00:32:12,759 --> 00:32:16,720
it were a singular person, one like a son of Man.

544
00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:19,359
Even in the same passage, it is clear that the

545
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,160
one like a son of Man, just simply a human being,

546
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,680
actually approaches the Ancient of days, and it is the

547
00:32:27,799 --> 00:32:32,000
Ancient of Days who is indisputably the one God now

548
00:32:32,039 --> 00:32:35,480
in the New Testament. In Mark's Gospel in particular, it

549
00:32:35,599 --> 00:32:38,960
is clear that Jesus is not God. For example, in Mark,

550
00:32:39,039 --> 00:32:42,799
when a man asked him, good Teacher, what must I

551
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,480
do to have eternal life? Jesus said, why do you

552
00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:47,880
call me good? No one is good but God alone.

553
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,759
He's clearly differentiating himself from the Almighty God. Even in

554
00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:57,880
John's Gospel, which has the most developed of theology and

555
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,119
of pristology, we have Jesus clearing that the one he

556
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,680
was praying to is the only God. So, for example,

557
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,920
in chapter seventeen, verson of Warning three, this is eternal life,

558
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,720
that you should they should know you as the only

559
00:33:10,119 --> 00:33:13,400
true God, and Jesus your messenger as Christ. So it

560
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,519
seems that John is presenting Jesus as a begotten God,

561
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,799
one lesser than the almighty and true God. A god maybe,

562
00:33:21,839 --> 00:33:25,720
but not the God, not the almighty God. So I

563
00:33:25,759 --> 00:33:28,839
rest my case on the scripture, the history, and the reason.

564
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,680
These all declare that Jesus was not God in carnage.

565
00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:35,799
Thank you cool.

566
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,799
Speaker 2: Thirty sings of Despair. Just a quick note for the interlocatives.

567
00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:42,839
Can you birth say the timer in my top right?

568
00:33:44,759 --> 00:33:47,319
Speaker 3: It seems to me reversed. Does it show at the

569
00:33:47,359 --> 00:33:48,200
moment its reverse?

570
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:49,359
Speaker 2: Okay? I thought I fixed that up.

571
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:50,559
Speaker 3: I apologize.

572
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:51,519
Speaker 2: Is that better?

573
00:33:52,799 --> 00:33:53,039
Speaker 1: Yeah?

574
00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 3: It looks good?

575
00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: Cool?

576
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: Okay, so did I no?

577
00:33:58,640 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: No, no yet? Thirty seconds?

578
00:33:59,839 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: Iach cool?

579
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,039
Speaker 2: All right, now it's time for the fifteen minute rebuttals,

580
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,280
starting with Jay set when you're ready.

581
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 4: All right?

582
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: So, yeah, thank you for that. The first thing I

583
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,920
would say, Let me take it. I guess the way

584
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:21,719
he chronologically went. So I gave, of course many many texts.

585
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,840
I still have a lot of those. I would add

586
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,159
that if you look at these texts, and again, I

587
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,480
know that people will have to later look through these.

588
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:30,960
We can't go through every one of these, but I've

589
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:37,440
specifically chosen theophanies with the ophonic manifestations that do explicate

590
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,199
and reference the Angel of the Lord, not as something vague,

591
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,840
but specifically as God, particularly to Hagar, to Abraham. And

592
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:46,679
there are many more, by the way, that I have

593
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,159
not mentioned here. I couldn't even fit them on the whiteboard.

594
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:53,079
But in many of these cases they are specifically identified

595
00:34:53,079 --> 00:34:56,239
as God, right in the situation of Samson's parents and

596
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,559
Judges thirteen, in the situation of Hagar. In the situations

597
00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:02,000
and exit that I gave, my name is put into

598
00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:04,360
the Angel. Again, if you know about the Jews and

599
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,239
the notion of the tetragrammaton, I am that I am

600
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,159
the name. There's no way that that could be put

601
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:13,280
into or given or stated to be part of or

602
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,320
a review given to another. But in fact, when I

603
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,880
say given to or generated, so to speak, that's our view.

604
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,159
Our view is that there is only one God, the Father.

605
00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:31,079
The Father is the monarchia in our theology of the Godhead.

606
00:35:31,639 --> 00:35:34,800
But just because a text says, for example, when Jesus

607
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,519
says there's none good by but God, that isn't that's

608
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:40,000
not an either or dialectic that well, then therefore no

609
00:35:40,079 --> 00:35:43,639
one else is good, or rather that Jesus is not

610
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,519
in fact directing us to worship the Father. Because from

611
00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:49,920
all eternity, we believe that there is a triadic reality

612
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,400
where the Father, the Son, and the Spirit have had

613
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,639
a perfect intercommunion from all, from all all eternity. So

614
00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:58,960
Jesus has always directed us to the Father. The Holy

615
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,800
Spirit in the New Totil, I would say, directs us

616
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,199
to the Sun. So there is that triadic relationship. As

617
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,639
Lasky says, that's always been the case, and for Paul

618
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,559
and for all of the early Church. That's why the

619
00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:12,719
Creed that he mentioned actually says that the one God

620
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,000
is identified with the person of the Father. For us,

621
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:18,159
there is one God, the Father Almighty. For our theology,

622
00:36:18,159 --> 00:36:21,480
it always begins with the person of the Father. But

623
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,519
let's move on to some of these other arguments, and

624
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:26,639
he says that logic says that the Trinity is not reasonable.

625
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,599
The trinity is a logical inconsistency. I would rather reverse

626
00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:32,119
that and turn it around and say that actually, the

627
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:36,360
triune God is the only rational basis for logic at all,

628
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,800
because if we look at the world, we'll notice that

629
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,599
objects in the world actually have a unitive and a

630
00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:45,320
multiplicity aspect to them. Philosophy, it's called the discipline of

631
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,559
mariology m E R e O l O g Y.

632
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,039
Mariology just looks at parts and wholes. It looks at

633
00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:53,000
distinctions and unities at the same time in objects. And

634
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,400
so that's a feature of things that are in the world.

635
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,039
I'm not saying that because they're true of objects in

636
00:36:58,039 --> 00:36:59,800
the world, that therefore's true of God. I'm saying that

637
00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:03,280
we admit this about the created reality, and as we

638
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:08,159
see not just objects but numbers themselves, right, something even

639
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,639
higher than perhaps created objects in a metaphysical sense. If

640
00:37:11,639 --> 00:37:14,800
you want to look at intellectual the noetic sphere, as

641
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,679
we would call it, abstracted objects, they also have this

642
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,320
feature of unity and multiplicity at the same time. Think

643
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,800
that of the number three, the number three is both

644
00:37:25,119 --> 00:37:27,280
three and it's one at the same time. It's a

645
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,599
singular instantiation, but it also represents a reality that's multiple

646
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,920
at the same time. Each number, the number one, also

647
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,760
possesses within itself an infinity. So he said that nothing

648
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,280
could be singular and infinite at the same time. It's

649
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,639
actually not true. There's many things in mathematics that actually

650
00:37:42,639 --> 00:37:45,360
demonstrate this. In the created realm. Now, in our view,

651
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,320
it would be idolatrous to identify in a one to

652
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,159
one correspondence everything in the created realm to the divine. Absolutely,

653
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,760
that would be idolatry and e fact. As I mentioned

654
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,599
with the doctrine of Tanzi in so forty two, any

655
00:37:58,639 --> 00:38:01,440
created thing in Islam cannot be identified in a one

656
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:04,400
to one correspondent in a unifical sense, to God because

657
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,039
that would be ideolatrous. But of course, again that brings

658
00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:09,440
the problem that brings us the problem of the words

659
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,559
of the Koran itself. But before we get to that,

660
00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:16,880
so logic in fact created human logic, which is very real,

661
00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:19,719
something that I utilize and argue for all the time.

662
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:23,079
I don't think can be grounded in any other God

663
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,440
beyond a God that is both one and many in

664
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,840
an ultimate sense. Hence why many of our theologians have

665
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,760
always stressed there's an equal ultimacy in God of both

666
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,719
unity and triadic or multiplicity. Now that the multiplicity is

667
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,679
not just grounded in the fact that there's three persons,

668
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,480
but then the fact that there are really distinct actions

669
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,800
of God. The energies of God are infinite, many of

670
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,199
our many of our. The Ellogians say, so God has

671
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,440
many powers, many abilities that he doesn't even actualize. The

672
00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:52,840
church fathers say, but I bring that up because in fact,

673
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,679
if there are not multiple powers in God that are real,

674
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,639
there are not distinctions in God that are real. We

675
00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:02,000
will be led to eight problem of the neoplatonists that

676
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:04,400
I think is present in Islam as well, which is

677
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,679
that if there are no distinctions in God that are real,

678
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,119
or God's actions that are not distinct from his essence,

679
00:39:09,159 --> 00:39:10,960
perhaps he will be of that school that does make

680
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,199
a sort of distinction. We'll see. If that's the case,

681
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,320
then God becomes an eternal creator, right, because the creation

682
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,840
is just as synonymous with the essence of God being creator,

683
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,800
is synonymous with the essence of God having the potentia

684
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,239
or the dunamis. The power to create must be actualized.

685
00:39:28,639 --> 00:39:31,000
As many of these Islamic theologians of the Middle Ages,

686
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:34,119
just like the Romancality theologians adopted the notion of act

687
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:37,519
as pure ast pure act. This leads to a necessary creation,

688
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:41,159
and no longer is God a free creator, free will creator.

689
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,440
God's creation is a determined emanation of his essence, because

690
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,599
the will to create is identical to the essence of

691
00:39:47,639 --> 00:39:50,599
God in all the theologies that have an absolute divine

692
00:39:50,599 --> 00:39:54,800
simplicity argument or presubsisition or basis. So that's my logical response.

693
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,920
So that we are the only religion in the world

694
00:39:57,199 --> 00:39:59,920
that has a real distinction between the essence and energies,

695
00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:04,480
and that itself is predicated on three hypostases. Only our

696
00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:07,519
view has the revealed doctrine of the triad. Again not

697
00:40:07,639 --> 00:40:10,000
just something that came about in the New Testament, but

698
00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:13,079
in fact goes back to many of these Old Testament

699
00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:16,599
texts themselves. So let's move on past the logical issues.

700
00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:20,119
Now there's a couple of points that he brought up

701
00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:23,320
that sort of brushed over the Church Father. She has

702
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:28,239
developed this the Church Father later got this idea wasn't

703
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,559
really there. This presupposes his position, right. The position is

704
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,159
just the assumption that well, everything that I see in

705
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:39,800
the Koran, of course trumps anything that came before, because

706
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,719
the Koran is sort of the final word on the matter. However,

707
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,480
I don't think it's disputed that we can go read

708
00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:50,039
the Septuagint right. The Subtus predates Christ and the Apostles,

709
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:54,360
and the sbitution has many many places that were problematic

710
00:40:54,639 --> 00:40:58,239
for the first second century Jews because so many Christians

711
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,559
were using it right. So eventually the Jews forbade the

712
00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:03,920
usage of this text, particularly because of things like the

713
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,679
Duteruo Kenna and how the worth and of course biders

714
00:41:06,679 --> 00:41:08,880
should mention by the way the Orthodox Church holds the

715
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,559
situation and the Byzantine text, the received tax as are

716
00:41:12,599 --> 00:41:13,440
normative taxtual.

717
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,599
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Speaker 1: Go to text so to speak, these are different than

761
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:57,239
many of the things that he's going to level against

762
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,960
sort of Protestant opponents or Catholic approach to a lot

763
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,159
of these texts. The Orthodox Church is in unique in

764
00:44:03,199 --> 00:44:07,039
this as well. Later I can link an essay that's

765
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:10,880
pretty well known by Metropolitan Isaiah who has a long

766
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,880
discussion of how in the in the Orthodox Church is

767
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,880
a unique conception of the texts as liturgical. They're worship texts, right,

768
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,320
just like in the Old Testament, there's a sort of

769
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,199
status given to the Torah that's pre eminent, and then

770
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,239
you have the Law and the profit, the writings and

771
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,880
the prophets, David psalms. It's not that they're intention because

772
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,239
of the pre eminence that's given to the Torah, but

773
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,519
rather in the same way, we have a pre eminence

774
00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:36,440
that's given to the Gospel, and then we have the

775
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,480
writings of Paul. And in the Orthodox Church of these

776
00:44:38,519 --> 00:44:40,880
have always been part of the liturgy, right, so that

777
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,119
necessitates an intimate connection to tradition, and tradition is what

778
00:44:46,199 --> 00:44:48,199
will help us and guide us in the interpretation of

779
00:44:48,199 --> 00:44:50,760
these texts. But tradition is not something that the New

780
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,559
that that Paul or their early Church fathers just sort

781
00:44:55,599 --> 00:44:58,400
of start coming up with and all you have to

782
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,480
do is go to the church fathers themselves. I've got

783
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:07,639
I mean, we can open up the post Apostolic fathers here.

784
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,440
The post Apostolic fathers all contain the writings which again

785
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,320
I don't think many people dispute that are prior to Nicia.

786
00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:17,920
There are many of these, right, And if you don't,

787
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,239
even if we don't like the Schaft translation, there's another

788
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,719
translation by Cyril Richards of the early church fathers, all

789
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,480
the same text. And guess what, Whether it's the epistles

790
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,559
of Ignatius, whether it's the writings of Turtullian, whether it's

791
00:45:29,599 --> 00:45:33,360
air Nasans against Heresies, whether it's Cyprians moral writings right,

792
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:39,679
whether it's Ambrose, whether it is any of these fathers right, Gregory, Thomaturgos,

793
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,639
any of these fathers prior to Nicea. They all teach

794
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,599
the deity of Christ. It's very easy to go and

795
00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:50,719
find these texts, right. Polycart mentions this ignacious right melitosartis,

796
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,400
Clement of Alexandria in his letters, excuse me, Clement of

797
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,000
Rome in his letters, Clement of Alexandri and his writings

798
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,880
politists of Rome, even Origin, who himself is one of

799
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,960
the early fathers, to begin to doubt the deity of Christ,

800
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,119
still at times is inconsistent and says that Christ is

801
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,719
also divine. So there's a vast amount of testimony amongst

802
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,320
the Batristic period, all of which are easily accessible. You

803
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,559
could just go read the epistleo Ignations to the Ephesians,

804
00:46:19,559 --> 00:46:21,760
and many times over he mentions the virgin birth, he

805
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:26,119
mentions the deity of Christ. They are countless writings of

806
00:46:26,159 --> 00:46:28,880
the church fathers from the period of the post Apostolic

807
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,679
time to Nicia that defend all these things. So the

808
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,119
idea that this was invented at Nicea is just absurd,

809
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,599
or that it was somehow really imposed. What happened that

810
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:41,679
Nicea was in fact an explication of what was in

811
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,440
these people when they when they met at Nicia. They

812
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,920
looked at the Texas Scripture. They looked at the previous

813
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,000
writings of the fathers. They looked at the liturgical texts,

814
00:46:52,079 --> 00:46:56,519
They looked at the electionaries that existed daily readings. They

815
00:46:56,519 --> 00:46:59,000
looked at the oral tradition that had gone into each

816
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,599
of these apostolics or bishoprics at that time. Right, the

817
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:05,519
actual divine liturgies that existed at that time as well.

818
00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:08,840
Justin Marter himself mentions a basic pattern of liturgy that

819
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,079
still followed today. Right. And Justine Marder, of course defends

820
00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,639
the deity of Christ. So the idea that and by

821
00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:17,199
the way, he does this on the basis of going

822
00:47:17,199 --> 00:47:19,840
to the Theophanes against rival the jew by the way,

823
00:47:20,199 --> 00:47:22,960
in the Old Testament. But so the idea that that

824
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:25,480
that this is vague, right, the Theophanies and Old Testament,

825
00:47:25,519 --> 00:47:28,079
they're not vague. There's countless ones that mentioned this person

826
00:47:28,119 --> 00:47:32,000
being divine. The idea that the Trinity is illogical as

827
00:47:32,079 --> 00:47:34,199
not actually a problem for us. And by the way,

828
00:47:35,159 --> 00:47:38,920
the problem that I mentioned of Tanzi, the problem that

829
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,800
I mentioned of eternal creation or is does God have

830
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,719
any unrealized potential? Right? The doctrine of simplicity that is

831
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:52,440
present in Islam, it's all heed. It doesn't escape the

832
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,400
same accusations and problems that it that it puts upon us,

833
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,320
because all we have to do is turn around and

834
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,800
point out the same debates and problems have existed for

835
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:03,199
sale entries in Islam itself, which again I can be corrected.

836
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,880
I'm not a scholar of Islam. I'm only eight months

837
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,960
into studying Islam house It's all new to me. But

838
00:48:08,599 --> 00:48:10,639
unless I have this wrong on my understanding is that

839
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,119
there have been centuries of recessions of the text, debates

840
00:48:14,159 --> 00:48:16,760
about the unity. Right. I'm not saying that the religion

841
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,239
is false because of the debates about unity. What I'm

842
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,559
saying is, if unity is supposed to be a rallying

843
00:48:21,639 --> 00:48:24,760
cry for the return to the Abrahamic religion, then how

844
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,079
is it that there's six allowed schools or so that

845
00:48:28,159 --> 00:48:30,559
disagree on the notion of the unity of God. That

846
00:48:30,599 --> 00:48:33,400
doesn't sound like a rallying cry of unity to me.

847
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,320
It sounds like confusion. And in fact, again he says

848
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,239
that the outcome must be more powerful than the individuals

849
00:48:42,519 --> 00:48:45,320
only if you presuppose that God is composed. We do

850
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,000
not believe that the divine reality, the divine triadic reality,

851
00:48:49,079 --> 00:48:52,599
is composed. We have a different We have a different

852
00:48:52,599 --> 00:48:56,559
presupposition about where we get our doctrine of simplicity. Now,

853
00:48:56,599 --> 00:48:59,800
in many of these traditions, whether it's Islam and they're

854
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:04,159
later influenced by philosophers under the Kalom period, or whether

855
00:49:04,199 --> 00:49:07,440
it's Roman Catholicism and their influence in the Middle Ages

856
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:11,719
under Tomism and these kinds of things also influenced by Aristotol,

857
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:16,119
we get very strict definitions of simplicity that negate any

858
00:49:16,199 --> 00:49:19,960
possibility of real distinctions, many many, In most cases, I

859
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,119
think that Islam falls prey to that same problematic where

860
00:49:23,119 --> 00:49:26,719
they have such a radical notion of transcendence that they

861
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:31,400
want to protect that the same problems about real reality

862
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:36,199
of distinctions apply to them. For our view, And by

863
00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:39,360
the way, the I'm not saying that he believes this,

864
00:49:39,519 --> 00:49:42,920
but I have in the first chapter of my study Quran.

865
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:44,719
I always call it a Koran study battle. It's not

866
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,280
a Koran study, bubb. In my study Kuran, we have

867
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:54,039
a mention of disputes which is interesting in the first

868
00:49:54,119 --> 00:49:58,000
sort of about the divine ideas. Now again, I know

869
00:49:58,039 --> 00:50:00,559
he may or may not adhere to that the school

870
00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:05,760
that different tradition of debate within the different schools of Islam.

871
00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:09,440
But the divine ideas are the rational principles in the

872
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,880
mind of God, right which ground the distinctions that are

873
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,360
real in the real world. If there are no real

874
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,079
distinctions in God, then the distinctions in the real world.

875
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:21,760
It would stand the reason are also not real because

876
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,800
they're not based on real distinctions. They're based on distinctions

877
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,760
that we nominally predicated of God, or think that they

878
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,880
may or may not be there, or they're just symbolic.

879
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:35,199
But it's just interesting to me that Islam has had

880
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,880
this debate. I'm saying evidence is the point that I'm

881
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,800
making that they do not escape the problem with the

882
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:45,280
difficulties of the question of the trinity when they put

883
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,480
that upon us, given the fact that they've had to

884
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,440
debate the same topic. So it's a problem that I

885
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,000
think we resolve better precisely because we do allow for

886
00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:58,400
the reality of distinctions in God. The grounding for that

887
00:50:58,559 --> 00:51:00,960
is the monarchia of the person of the Father. Right,

888
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,320
So Jesus can say throughout the Gospel John, for example,

889
00:51:04,119 --> 00:51:07,679
my father, right, there's none good but God, and he

890
00:51:07,679 --> 00:51:10,119
can say, there's that the Father alone has life in himself.

891
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,360
Then he can turn around say, but he is granted

892
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,280
to the son to have life in himself, right, And

893
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,599
we don't assume that because he says the Father alone

894
00:51:17,639 --> 00:51:20,480
is good, that therefore Jesus isn't good. Right. If God

895
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:23,760
alone is good, then therefore Muhammad's not good. Now, that's ridiculous.

896
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,239
So that's a that's a strained exegesis, and nobody would

897
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,480
it here to and certainly we don't want to believe

898
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,440
by the way he said that Jesus did not teach

899
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,079
that he and his mother were divine. We don't teach

900
00:51:33,119 --> 00:51:36,039
the Marys divine, so that was not a position that

901
00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:38,599
we have. So it's all a bunch of I would say.

902
00:51:38,639 --> 00:51:41,239
His position is a lot of either or dialectics, and

903
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,199
he talks about the clear texts of scripture as opposed

904
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,519
to the unclear. That's ad hoc.

905
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:56,159
Speaker 2: Time. Okay, Doc Darlie savir Reus wants well ready when

906
00:51:56,199 --> 00:51:56,800
you are.

907
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm ready?

908
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: Is this next part? What's the next part?

909
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 2: Well, this is still I de beliate. This is a

910
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:06,280
total lazer bottle.

911
00:52:06,599 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 4: Oh okay, go ahead, Yeah, so whenever you're ready.

912
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 3: So thank you Jay for that response to my presentation.

913
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,400
And I will now return to your opening statements and

914
00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:22,960
try to incorporate both your opening statements and this recent

915
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:31,239
response in my now replying. So, hey, hey, you pointed

916
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,079
out that there are many texts in the Old Testament

917
00:52:33,199 --> 00:52:37,840
that speak of the Angel of the Lord. Now I

918
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,159
want to bring you back to the idea that we

919
00:52:40,599 --> 00:52:44,119
do have to give precedents to clear statements over vague ones.

920
00:52:44,679 --> 00:52:46,519
I don't consider this to be at hoc at all.

921
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:49,519
There are some statements which stand out clear to you

922
00:52:49,639 --> 00:52:52,119
they don't need any further elaboration. And then there are

923
00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:55,400
statements which are vague. They commentators have to say, well,

924
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,760
it says that, but it means this. The moment you

925
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,679
start saying it means this, and then somebody he all says, well,

926
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:02,679
it could also mean this, or it could mean this

927
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,159
other thing. We're dealing with something that is vague that

928
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:09,440
human beings might interpret differently. But clear statements, like, for example,

929
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:15,199
the simple declaration that Jesus is saying that the one

930
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,840
he's praying to is the only true God. This is

931
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,280
a clear and simple declaration, the declaration in the Old

932
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,599
Testament that there is only one God. This is clear

933
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,559
to arrive at three. Now you know that various people

934
00:53:26,639 --> 00:53:30,599
have arrived at different solutions to the idea that Jesus

935
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,760
is God. Some said they use the term that you

936
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,320
use monarchanism, or at least scholars use that to denote

937
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,960
the belief that the Father came down onto the earth

938
00:53:40,039 --> 00:53:45,639
and this was Jesus. So we cannot use unclear texts

939
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,960
over and above the clear ones. I think this is

940
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,960
a good principle. Even in my debate with Nabil Kroati,

941
00:53:51,119 --> 00:53:55,079
Nobil Croreashi actually admitted that he agreed and he restated

942
00:53:55,119 --> 00:53:59,760
it himself that you cannot use vague texts over the

943
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:04,559
clear ones. Now, the text that say that there is

944
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,039
this figure angel of the Lord, this is vague to

945
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:11,199
begin with. It is not so clear that it should

946
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,320
be the Angel of the Lord, because it could be

947
00:54:13,519 --> 00:54:17,320
an Angel of the Lord. The text can go both ways.

948
00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:21,760
They step told him. The Greek version sometimes gives it

949
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,119
the definite article and sometimes it doesn't, so we're not

950
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:28,639
clear if God has one angel, several angels, and who

951
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,239
are these angels. The Angel of the Lord appears in

952
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:34,840
the New Testament as well, and sometimes it is clear

953
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,360
there that it is also to be translated as an

954
00:54:38,679 --> 00:54:44,000
Angel of the Lord. And in Luke's Gospel in chapter one,

955
00:54:44,159 --> 00:54:47,719
verse number eleven, there the Angel of the Lord appears

956
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,000
to Zachariah, and then in verse number nineteen he says,

957
00:54:51,119 --> 00:54:53,119
I am the Angel of the Lord. I am Gabriel.

958
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:58,320
So I don't believe that Christians take Gabriel to be

959
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:03,400
the third person of the Holy Trinity. So if you

960
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,760
say that the Angel of the Lord automatically equates with

961
00:55:07,159 --> 00:55:09,960
the third person of the Holy Trinity, we have here

962
00:55:10,079 --> 00:55:13,639
an anomalous text that needs to be explained. And there

963
00:55:13,639 --> 00:55:16,800
are several others as well. But even if you said

964
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,840
that there is Yahue in the Old Testament and he

965
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,920
has his angel, so now everybody knows that there are

966
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,119
two divine persons. There is Yahweh and there is Yahue's angel,

967
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,960
the Angel of the Lord. But as I said, nobody

968
00:55:28,119 --> 00:55:31,119
was saying that. Nobody was declaring that, you know, there

969
00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:34,039
are two persons in the one God, the Father and

970
00:55:34,599 --> 00:55:37,320
the Angel of the Father. Nobody was saying that even

971
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,760
in the presence of Jesus. Nobody is saying that, even

972
00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:44,039
on the words of Jesus, we find nothing comparable. The

973
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:48,360
closest we find to any declaration of this unity and

974
00:55:48,519 --> 00:55:51,760
diversity within the Godhead is first John chapter five, verse

975
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,039
number seven, where it says that there are three that

976
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:56,159
bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the

977
00:55:56,199 --> 00:55:59,960
Holy Spirit, and these three are one. But this is

978
00:56:00,199 --> 00:56:04,280
notoriously proven to be a later insertion into the New

979
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:10,119
Testament many centuries after the New Testament was completed, and

980
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,880
eventually it found its way into the medieval texts and

981
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,719
then was translated into the King James version of the Bible.

982
00:56:16,039 --> 00:56:19,480
And now I noticed that the Orthodox Study Bible also

983
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,039
retains the same tradition from the King James version by

984
00:56:23,119 --> 00:56:28,719
following the Byzantine text or the Majority texts, which others

985
00:56:29,199 --> 00:56:32,679
like James White, for example, whom I've debated with several times,

986
00:56:34,559 --> 00:56:39,159
they declared this to be a later insertion into the Bible.

987
00:56:39,519 --> 00:56:43,440
So we do not have any original statement from either

988
00:56:43,519 --> 00:56:46,159
the Old Testament or the New that would indicate that

989
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,760
at one time people thought that there were two persons

990
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,320
in the one godhead. Moreover, if something like the trinity

991
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:55,079
is true, it should have been known from all eternity,

992
00:56:55,559 --> 00:56:58,400
and it should be known among humans right from the

993
00:56:58,559 --> 00:57:01,920
very first one. But throughout the Old Testament we have

994
00:57:02,119 --> 00:57:05,960
no declaration that there is anything like a trinity. Always

995
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,000
there is an insistence on one God. Yahueh speaks for

996
00:57:09,079 --> 00:57:12,559
example in Isaiah chapter forty two, forty three, forty four,

997
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,519
forty five, forty six, and these chapters are riddle with

998
00:57:16,719 --> 00:57:19,679
statements from Yahweh saying I am Yahweh. There is no

999
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,039
God but me. Besides me, there will be no other.

1000
00:57:22,519 --> 00:57:25,480
Now in the New Testament, it is clear that Jesus

1001
00:57:25,679 --> 00:57:28,960
is identified as the servant of Yahweh. Matthew chapter twelve,

1002
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,239
verse eighteen, for example, says that when Yahweh said, I'm

1003
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,239
sending my servant, this is the servant. This is Jesus.

1004
00:57:36,559 --> 00:57:40,039
So Jesus is therefore the servant of Yahweh. For him

1005
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:42,079
to be the one God, he had to be Yahweh.

1006
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:46,519
And while there are some New Testament texts that seemed

1007
00:57:46,559 --> 00:57:51,119
to indicate that the Yahweh texts are applied to Jesus, nonetheless,

1008
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,800
when it comes to declaring who exactly is God, the

1009
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:59,760
New Testament writers are usually saying that Yahweh is God

1010
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:03,239
and it's not Jesus. For example, even though we find

1011
00:58:03,280 --> 00:58:07,639
that in Paul's writings and Jesus is shown to be

1012
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,480
of a high statuary is the one Lord through which

1013
00:58:11,519 --> 00:58:14,119
all things were made, and still Paul is declaring that

1014
00:58:14,159 --> 00:58:17,599
there is only one God, the Father, and obviously that

1015
00:58:17,719 --> 00:58:19,960
is not a reference to Jesus. So always the one

1016
00:58:20,039 --> 00:58:24,000
God is someone else and not Jesus. So to say

1017
00:58:24,039 --> 00:58:29,280
that Jesus is God using these varied and ambigumous texts.

1018
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,719
To me, it ignores the plain texts which indicate that

1019
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:39,079
he is not God. Now, what about the New Testament

1020
00:58:39,199 --> 00:58:43,320
saying that Jesus is the one who was spoken about

1021
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,639
when it says, Uh, prepare the way of the Lord.

1022
00:58:46,719 --> 00:58:49,800
So this is obviously the Lord. Well, that has to

1023
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:53,480
be interpreted within Mark's Gospel and within the general scheme

1024
00:58:53,639 --> 00:58:56,400
in which the New Testament writers are referring to the

1025
00:58:56,519 --> 00:59:00,639
Old Testament. What can be seen, as many recent interpreters

1026
00:59:00,679 --> 00:59:03,719
have pointed out, is that the New Testament writers are not,

1027
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:09,159
as we might have expected, faithfully copying what was mentioned

1028
00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:12,199
in the Old Testament. No, rather, they take the text

1029
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,880
out of their contexts and they give the texts new meanings.

1030
00:59:17,079 --> 00:59:19,840
The simple way of defending this use in among the

1031
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,599
New Testament writers is to say that they don't mean

1032
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:26,320
that the texts mean what they're saying. It means they

1033
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:30,599
only mean to say, look, these texts remind us of

1034
00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:34,599
what is happening here, or what is happening here reminds

1035
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,280
us of those texts. It doesn't mean that those texts

1036
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,440
mean the same thing that is happening here. They were

1037
00:59:43,519 --> 00:59:48,239
using what is referred to as Jewish pressure and mid

1038
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:52,719
rush methods, which allow for this kind of linking. It's

1039
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:58,719
almost like the link between a crossword clue and the answer.

1040
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:01,679
It's not a dictionary type of meaning. It's not that

1041
01:00:02,199 --> 01:00:04,039
we're looking at the Old Testament and say, okay, what

1042
01:00:04,079 --> 01:00:07,519
does that mean historically drammatically, But it's not that we

1043
01:00:07,599 --> 01:00:09,760
have to go check the dictionaries to see what they mean. No,

1044
01:00:10,119 --> 01:00:12,800
the New Testament writers take these out of their context.

1045
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,760
They ignore the grammar, they ignored the history, and then

1046
01:00:16,039 --> 01:00:19,679
they put it in a context in which Jesus is

1047
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:25,239
being discussed. They only mean to defend them. We can

1048
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,360
say that the only mean that what's happening in the

1049
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:31,800
life of Jesus reminds us of those texts. It's not

1050
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:37,000
that those texts actually mean Jesus. So with that in mind,

1051
01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:41,800
we cannot take these as instances of proof that the

1052
01:00:41,920 --> 01:00:46,440
New Testament writers are actually claiming that Jesus is Yahweh. No,

1053
01:00:46,599 --> 01:00:49,320
on the contrary, they're showing that he's not Yahweh. He

1054
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,760
is praying to Yahweh, he is bowing down, getting on

1055
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,440
his face with his face to the ground, and he

1056
01:00:55,639 --> 01:00:58,719
is worshiping Yahweh, So he himself is not Yahweh. What

1057
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,639
about Jesus forgiving sins? Well, it is clear from Matthew's

1058
01:01:02,679 --> 01:01:06,599
gospel that the people, when they evaluated the whole episode,

1059
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:10,000
they praised God who has given such authority to men,

1060
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,599
which means that Jesus is not the only man who

1061
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:18,679
has been given such authority. The opponents came to their

1062
01:01:18,719 --> 01:01:22,440
own understanding that Jesus is a man, and he, as

1063
01:01:22,519 --> 01:01:26,599
a man among other men, can be given such authority

1064
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:31,840
to declare the forgiveness of people's sins. So, in the

1065
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,559
final analysis, this does not prove that Jesus is God.

1066
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:40,519
What about the logical proof that the lawgos being the

1067
01:01:40,599 --> 01:01:44,400
second person of the Holy Spirit. This frees God from

1068
01:01:44,679 --> 01:01:49,480
the problem of Tanzi or the purity of God. Well

1069
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:53,320
for Muslims generally, for myself, I have not dealt deeply

1070
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,519
into this philosophy, and I have to say, Jay, that

1071
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:59,079
you have an edge in this dialogue in that you

1072
01:01:59,199 --> 01:02:02,960
have studied this philosophy, and I'll be glad to listen

1073
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,679
to you more about this and to learn from you

1074
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,880
about this. But at a simple level, I would say

1075
01:02:09,159 --> 01:02:13,599
that this is not a problem for my conception of God.

1076
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,039
God is holy, God is pure, God is transcendent, and

1077
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:22,119
his transcendence is not compromised by the fact that he

1078
01:02:22,519 --> 01:02:25,159
reveals the Qoran and that he creates the world. As

1079
01:02:25,239 --> 01:02:27,320
for the Quran, I will take the Quran to be

1080
01:02:27,639 --> 01:02:34,440
a representation of the thoughts of God put into human language,

1081
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,599
so as a communication to us. When we communicate, we

1082
01:02:37,679 --> 01:02:40,239
have an idea in our minds, we put that idea

1083
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,559
into text. That's one medium of communication, and we're hoping

1084
01:02:43,639 --> 01:02:46,159
that that idea will get into the mind of the readers.

1085
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:49,239
But that doesn't mean that when I put my ideas

1086
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:53,599
into text that somehow that text becomes me. No, it

1087
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,559
is an expression of my thoughts. So the Quran is

1088
01:02:56,639 --> 01:03:02,000
an expression of the divine and the divine communication, but

1089
01:03:02,239 --> 01:03:06,039
not the Quran is not divinity itself, and so Muslims

1090
01:03:06,079 --> 01:03:08,360
do not have this difficulty. But I think you need

1091
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,360
to notice, Jay that even before you talk about the Trinity,

1092
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:16,679
you still have similar problems. If you say that, for example,

1093
01:03:17,079 --> 01:03:20,719
Jesus is God and he is infinite, well, then when

1094
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,719
his words come out of his mouth, his words must

1095
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:28,639
somehow be explained logically using the same principles by which

1096
01:03:28,719 --> 01:03:33,360
you try to prevent God from from from having this

1097
01:03:33,599 --> 01:03:38,039
kind of discourse, like you want a secondary person who

1098
01:03:38,159 --> 01:03:40,519
will deal directly with the world. Well, the Greeks had

1099
01:03:40,599 --> 01:03:42,880
said this before, and this really the concept of lagos

1100
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:46,039
came up, where they said that God does not deal

1101
01:03:46,119 --> 01:03:48,880
directly with the world but through an agency, and that

1102
01:03:49,079 --> 01:03:52,519
agency must be his lagos or his sofia, his wisdom.

1103
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,800
And then eventually John's Gospel picked this up and said, Okay,

1104
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,719
Jesus is that lagos, Jesus is that sophia, and Jesus

1105
01:03:59,760 --> 01:04:02,800
is the wisdom. John doesn't use the term sophia, but

1106
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:07,079
all does. So this does not free us of all

1107
01:04:07,119 --> 01:04:10,559
of the problems, because the Holy Spirit must be something

1108
01:04:10,679 --> 01:04:13,199
like that as well. If the Father has this log,

1109
01:04:13,519 --> 01:04:16,039
the Holy Spirit must have a lagus as well. The

1110
01:04:16,159 --> 01:04:18,920
lagus himself must have some kind of lagos to express

1111
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:21,280
his own thought. And so we go on and on

1112
01:04:21,599 --> 01:04:25,960
ad infinitum. If you say that the number one includes

1113
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,519
a sort of infinity within it, well, then Jesus himself

1114
01:04:29,599 --> 01:04:33,039
must include an infinity within himself. And if the Father

1115
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,719
can have a son, why couldn't the son have a son?

1116
01:04:36,039 --> 01:04:38,039
In fact, why couldn't the Holy Spirit have a son,

1117
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,280
And why isn't Jesus the son of both the Father

1118
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,800
and the Holy Spirit? And so on. We can go

1119
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:47,400
on and on about this. And if we discover these three,

1120
01:04:47,719 --> 01:04:50,559
why stop at three? Why couldn't there be a fourth

1121
01:04:50,639 --> 01:04:54,519
person within the Godhead? And again, ad infinitum. So I

1122
01:04:54,639 --> 01:04:58,639
don't think that this attempt to defend the trinity actually

1123
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,480
closes the door, but it opens up the door to

1124
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:07,239
more and difficult problems. So the number three, yes, you're

1125
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:12,199
saying this is one number, but it's the number three,

1126
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:15,559
so it implies a sort of three. But still nobody

1127
01:05:15,639 --> 01:05:18,519
would say that the one and the two and the

1128
01:05:18,679 --> 01:05:23,480
three together are just simply a one number. No, there

1129
01:05:23,519 --> 01:05:28,960
are three individual numbers. The number three is an individual number,

1130
01:05:29,119 --> 01:05:31,280
so is the number two, and so is number one.

1131
01:05:31,599 --> 01:05:33,599
So if you say the Father is God, the Son

1132
01:05:33,719 --> 01:05:35,719
is God, the Holy Spirit is God, each one of

1133
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:38,679
them is a divine person, then it looks to me

1134
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,559
like you have three gods, and now you have to

1135
01:05:40,639 --> 01:05:44,679
explain how could these actually be one God? And citing

1136
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:47,679
the example of the number three does not really do it.

1137
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:52,280
Didn't the church fathers progress with this idea, certainly they did,

1138
01:05:52,599 --> 01:05:55,559
for Justin Martyr for example, it was not so clear

1139
01:05:55,639 --> 01:05:58,800
who Jesus was justin Martyr and his writings as translated

1140
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:02,320
by Richardson show that he thought that Jesus was an

1141
01:06:02,400 --> 01:06:05,719
angel who is worshiped along with other angels. So it

1142
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,920
was not so entirely clear yourself, Jay, have cited Oregon,

1143
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:14,679
who vaccillated on how exactly Jesus could be defined or

1144
01:06:14,719 --> 01:06:21,880
received really defined, finally saying that when Jesus said that

1145
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,679
who is good but God alone, Jesus must be denying

1146
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:28,639
that he's good, And then.

1147
01:06:28,559 --> 01:06:29,559
Speaker 1: What about Mohammad?

1148
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 3: He couldn't be good either, And no, that's not the point, Jay.

1149
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:35,559
It's not that Jesus is denying being good, but he's

1150
01:06:35,639 --> 01:06:38,840
denying being God. He's seeing the essence of the whole

1151
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:41,880
situation and proclaiming to this man, you're approaching me as

1152
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,000
if I'm God, No i am not. And so it's

1153
01:06:45,159 --> 01:06:47,800
very clear from the Old from the New Testament, from history,

1154
01:06:48,119 --> 01:06:51,039
and from logic that Jesus was not and is not

1155
01:06:51,239 --> 01:06:53,400
God incarnage. Thank you all very much.

1156
01:06:55,000 --> 01:07:01,320
Speaker 2: Cool. So the next section of the discussion, we don't

1157
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:07,199
enter into cross examination, so I believe Jay will be

1158
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:13,239
examining doctor Ali first. So just a quick couple of

1159
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:16,679
notesfore we get into it, right. Obviously Jay is able

1160
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,840
to interrupt here and ask questions, but I will ask

1161
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:22,960
that we make sure that we keep respectful, that we

1162
01:07:23,639 --> 01:07:27,719
allow interlockers to try and get some points out, but

1163
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:29,679
to also not to fill a buster. Is that pretty

1164
01:07:29,679 --> 01:07:30,239
well understood?

1165
01:07:31,199 --> 01:07:31,400
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1166
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,599
Speaker 2: Cool? All right, this is a ten minute section, so

1167
01:07:35,639 --> 01:07:37,000
I just have to adjust the timer.

1168
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:40,119
Speaker 3: Give me a second, apologies.

1169
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:51,519
Speaker 4: All right, okay, so when you're ready, Jael, You're ready,

1170
01:07:52,559 --> 01:07:53,119
When you're ready?

1171
01:07:56,079 --> 01:07:59,480
Speaker 1: Okay. You stated when you were talking about the Doctor

1172
01:07:59,559 --> 01:08:03,199
of Time's that God is not like creatures, that God's

1173
01:08:03,239 --> 01:08:07,960
transcendence is not compromised because the Quran is a representation

1174
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:10,880
of God's thoughts, which is interesting because I had mentioned

1175
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:17,319
the divine ideas. But isn't that kind of the whole

1176
01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:21,039
issue here? I mean, if the Qoran is a created text,

1177
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:25,800
it's a representation that's an icon or an image of

1178
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:30,359
divine thoughts. How is that reconcilable with God being not

1179
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:31,640
like anything created?

1180
01:08:33,239 --> 01:08:36,840
Speaker 3: Well, Jay, I've used the analogy with my own thoughts

1181
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,279
being represented in writing. What I put into writing is

1182
01:08:40,359 --> 01:08:43,239
not me, that's just an expression of my thoughts. So

1183
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,560
if something is analogous like this with God, where God

1184
01:08:47,159 --> 01:08:51,439
it gives us his thoughts in writing. But that writing

1185
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:55,000
itself is not God. It's only a representation of his thoughts.

1186
01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:57,279
I don't understand the philosophy.

1187
01:08:58,119 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 1: So an analogy and gia is based on some degree

1188
01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,199
of similarity. It may not be unifical or absolutely equated,

1189
01:09:05,279 --> 01:09:07,920
but it's related to the idea of some notion of similarity.

1190
01:09:08,039 --> 01:09:10,840
But Sir Rah forty two says that God is in

1191
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:14,640
no way like creatures. That God is in no way

1192
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:15,319
like creatures.

1193
01:09:17,279 --> 01:09:21,239
Speaker 3: Okay, well, that's exactly a point at which I would

1194
01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:23,960
pick up and say that the real point of that

1195
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,920
it says that God is nothing like his creatures, is

1196
01:09:28,039 --> 01:09:31,159
to not equate anything on earth or that flies in

1197
01:09:31,199 --> 01:09:33,720
the sky, or anything that we know to be creatures

1198
01:09:34,199 --> 01:09:37,840
with God. God is unique, He's transcendent, and he can

1199
01:09:37,920 --> 01:09:41,560
communicate with us in the form of the Quran or mentally,

1200
01:09:42,840 --> 01:09:47,399
But that communication itself is not God. It's just a

1201
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,359
representation of the thoughts of God.

1202
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,840
Speaker 1: Image. So isn't an icon or image a symbol?

1203
01:09:55,359 --> 01:09:59,319
Speaker 3: Well no, But when you say icon, then I think

1204
01:09:59,399 --> 01:10:03,319
of images and physical representations, which.

1205
01:10:03,239 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: The words of the Koran and the Qoran is not

1206
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,840
physical representation of these thoughts of allat.

1207
01:10:10,119 --> 01:10:12,359
Speaker 3: If you want to press it that way, then Muslims

1208
01:10:12,359 --> 01:10:14,720
would would say that the same you can say about

1209
01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:17,720
the Torah. The Torah then too would be a representation

1210
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:20,520
of the thoughts of God and the words of Gee.

1211
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: But I'm arguing with your theology, not not judism.

1212
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, in my I have not, Jay, I have not,

1213
01:10:28,680 --> 01:10:32,399
and I've confessed this already. I have not studied the

1214
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,279
philosophy behind this deeply. I know that Muslim scholars have

1215
01:10:36,399 --> 01:10:39,880
debated these issues, but to me, it is a dead issue.

1216
01:10:40,239 --> 01:10:42,279
It is a debate that belongs to the Middle Ages

1217
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:46,359
and the thought patterns of the Muslim philosophers at that time.

1218
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,159
I don't see any difficulty saying that the Quran is

1219
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:55,960
a representation of the thoughts of God, or that, more

1220
01:10:56,000 --> 01:11:00,159
simply put, that it is a difine communication, similar to

1221
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:07,560
what was given to previous prophets when they be meanbody,

1222
01:11:08,279 --> 01:11:11,039
we have revealed to you the prophet Muhammad, as we

1223
01:11:11,119 --> 01:11:13,239
have revealed to profits before you.

1224
01:11:13,399 --> 01:11:17,520
Speaker 1: Noah and others are the thoughts distinct? I'm sorry I

1225
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,239
didn't hear you are the thoughts in the mind of

1226
01:11:19,279 --> 01:11:20,399
a law distinct or not.

1227
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:24,880
Speaker 3: Really, I don't know if I need to make that

1228
01:11:25,239 --> 01:11:28,960
kind of distinction again, Are there any distinctions make that distinction?

1229
01:11:29,279 --> 01:11:31,560
Speaker 1: Are there any real distinctions.

1230
01:11:31,119 --> 01:11:34,600
Speaker 3: Between the names and between the divine essence? But I

1231
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,920
don't feel the need to make that distinction, And I

1232
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,800
don't think that trying to approbe that distinction is going

1233
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:46,319
to help us to understand why Christians are proclaiming that there.

1234
01:11:46,359 --> 01:11:48,840
Speaker 1: Is right because the reason I'm going in a direction

1235
01:11:49,039 --> 01:11:52,479
is that because the reason that you don't believe in

1236
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:57,199
the data of Christ and the Trinity, ultimately, I would argue,

1237
01:11:57,319 --> 01:12:00,640
is because of our philosophical assumptions about who God is,

1238
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,920
what unity is, and to what degree there are distinctions

1239
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,359
at that higher level or not. So I don't I

1240
01:12:06,399 --> 01:12:09,319
think it's absolutely a fair question to ask you whether

1241
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:12,880
the attributes or the thoughts or whatever are real distinctions

1242
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:15,840
or not. I mean, you can ask me all those questions,

1243
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:17,279
and you're saying I can't ask you those things.

1244
01:12:18,239 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 3: Well, well, you can ask, but I don't necessarily have

1245
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,800
to answer. And my refusal to answer, I'm sure to

1246
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:28,680
defend the unity of God. Let me finish that thought,

1247
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:33,640
So my refusal to answer would not be a capitulation

1248
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,880
to accepting the Trinity. Let me point out that our

1249
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:41,359
Jewish friends would would have presumably the same problem that

1250
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,760
you are thinking that muslim should have, and yet our

1251
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:47,680
Jewish friends have not seen the necessity to adopt the

1252
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:56,079
Trinity doctrine into their religion. Monotheists. It shows that Jews,

1253
01:12:56,119 --> 01:12:58,520
who have been abiding by the Old Testament and who

1254
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:01,800
would presumably have a similar or you believe the text,

1255
01:13:02,199 --> 01:13:03,199
were corrupted by the Jews.

1256
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:08,039
Speaker 1: But that's a different point, Jay. You know it's not

1257
01:13:08,159 --> 01:13:10,520
because so it's arbitrary. It's at hoc you pick when

1258
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:12,319
you want to take the Jewish stuff and then when

1259
01:13:12,359 --> 01:13:15,159
you want to reject it. Now the Jewish.

1260
01:13:15,319 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 3: What I'm saying here, Jay, is that if we say

1261
01:13:18,239 --> 01:13:21,039
that the Quran, flowing from the mind of God, must

1262
01:13:21,119 --> 01:13:24,279
somehow be an icon for God, and therefore we would

1263
01:13:24,319 --> 01:13:27,600
have in a way something like two divine persons here,

1264
01:13:28,319 --> 01:13:30,680
that then we would have to say the same thing

1265
01:13:31,039 --> 01:13:35,800
even for this theoretical Torah. That is, I didn't so,

1266
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,000
but but Jews would never go that route, and Muslims

1267
01:13:39,039 --> 01:13:44,760
don't have to. And Jay, Christians did not go that

1268
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:50,199
route until at first they started to accept Jesus as

1269
01:13:50,239 --> 01:13:53,439
a divine person, which in its day was a very

1270
01:13:53,520 --> 01:13:55,760
common thing for people to do to accept the human

1271
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:58,319
being as God. And then they tried to try to

1272
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:02,479
come up with a philosophical justification for having done this,

1273
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,960
and as part of that justification they eventually arrived at

1274
01:14:06,319 --> 01:14:07,039
the doctrine of it.

1275
01:14:07,399 --> 01:14:10,000
Speaker 1: So the Jews corrupted the text when you need to

1276
01:14:10,119 --> 01:14:12,479
look at the text being corrupted by the Jews. But

1277
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:14,960
then when you want to refer to the Old Testament

1278
01:14:15,039 --> 01:14:19,239
as authentic and a genuine revelation of monotheism, that you want,

1279
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:21,920
that's fine, And then you ask me all these questions

1280
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:24,960
about the trinity. But if I ask the same questions

1281
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:28,359
about the Islamic doctrine of essence and attributes, you say,

1282
01:14:28,399 --> 01:14:30,079
I don't have to answer those questions. Well, to me,

1283
01:14:30,319 --> 01:14:32,119
I think that, I mean, you don't have to, You're right,

1284
01:14:32,239 --> 01:14:35,359
But I mean, how are you avoiding the question? By

1285
01:14:35,399 --> 01:14:37,039
the way, I didn't say that because there are real

1286
01:14:37,079 --> 01:14:41,520
distinctions that that proves that that that that if if

1287
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:44,279
the Quran in the in the the eternal sense, the

1288
01:14:44,319 --> 01:14:46,760
eternal Kuran is somehow distinct from God, that that means

1289
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:49,399
that I'm arguing that that proves the second person. I

1290
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:52,920
believe that the personhood and the distinctions in God are

1291
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:55,119
on the basis of revelation. They're not on the basis

1292
01:14:55,199 --> 01:14:58,479
of speculations. It's what's revealed. And so we take all

1293
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:00,880
of these texts as a whole, right, and we look

1294
01:15:00,920 --> 01:15:02,520
at them, and we see what the whole body of

1295
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:04,479
these texts revealed. And by the way, the next point

1296
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,279
I wanted to make was that you're assuming that God

1297
01:15:07,399 --> 01:15:10,840
can't reveal more and more of himself over time. I mean,

1298
01:15:11,000 --> 01:15:14,039
your own theology argues that God reveals more and more

1299
01:15:14,079 --> 01:15:16,720
of himself over time, with the Quran being the final

1300
01:15:17,119 --> 01:15:19,880
capstone that corrects, you know, the previous mistakes and errors

1301
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:23,039
of the of the religion. So there's no reason why

1302
01:15:23,159 --> 01:15:25,239
in our in our system, I can't say the same thing. Well,

1303
01:15:25,279 --> 01:15:28,600
God has chosen to gradually unveil more and more and

1304
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:30,279
more of himself. Even the Jews. You want to refer

1305
01:15:30,319 --> 01:15:32,439
to the Jews, all right, Well, even in Jewish religion,

1306
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:37,359
they had the notion that Yahweh gradually unveils more and

1307
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:40,960
more of himself. Right, Isaiah knew way more than Abraham knew.

1308
01:15:41,279 --> 01:15:44,000
That doesn't mean that there's a contradiction, or because because

1309
01:15:44,079 --> 01:15:47,279
Isaiah doesn't say every excuse me, because Abraham doesn't say

1310
01:15:47,279 --> 01:15:51,680
everything that Isaiah says all. Therefore Abraham is Isaiah can

1311
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:56,239
be canceled out because Abraham is who we start, who

1312
01:15:56,279 --> 01:15:56,800
we stick with.

1313
01:15:57,039 --> 01:15:57,159
Speaker 2: Right.

1314
01:15:57,279 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 1: So there's just there's all these ad hoc assumptions that

1315
01:15:59,880 --> 01:16:03,039
you have that are not consistent with the presentation of

1316
01:16:03,119 --> 01:16:06,359
the Karna self, which I argued that I put out

1317
01:16:06,399 --> 01:16:09,399
in my first statement. The question there is where is

1318
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:13,079
the levitical ceremonies, Where is all the stuff in Exodus

1319
01:16:13,199 --> 01:16:15,680
relating to the priesthood, to the altar? Where is all

1320
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:17,920
of that in Islam? How is their continuity? If you

1321
01:16:17,960 --> 01:16:20,079
want to argue that you have the continuity.

1322
01:16:22,039 --> 01:16:25,880
Speaker 3: Okay, so Jay, now you have shifted the subject to continuity.

1323
01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:27,880
The question is not whether it's long. I can ask

1324
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,800
you whatever I want in this but let's let me

1325
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:33,239
answer you a question I can shift in this question,

1326
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:38,000
Islam is continuous, and if we ask about discontinuity, Christianity

1327
01:16:38,159 --> 01:16:41,319
is discontinuous, for example, even talk about the second.

1328
01:16:41,399 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 1: That wasn't my question. My question was where in Islam

1329
01:16:44,159 --> 01:16:44,880
is the continuity?

1330
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:47,399
Speaker 3: Not where You're asking a lot of questions.

1331
01:16:47,439 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 1: But this is my interrogation of you. Where in Islam

1332
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:52,640
is the continuity?

1333
01:16:53,199 --> 01:16:56,279
Speaker 3: But interrogation doesn't mean that that you answer your own

1334
01:16:56,359 --> 01:16:58,359
questions questions.

1335
01:16:58,359 --> 01:17:00,520
Speaker 1: I'll be glad. I mean I already answered you the

1336
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:02,880
continuity of where the temple and all that liturgy and

1337
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:05,039
all that is in our religion. I'm asking you where

1338
01:17:05,199 --> 01:17:06,920
is it in your theology? You can't then turn that

1339
01:17:07,039 --> 01:17:08,359
around instead of shifting the blame.

1340
01:17:09,119 --> 01:17:13,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not asking you anything. I'm telling you there

1341
01:17:13,199 --> 01:17:16,960
is continuity, and that am I saying that God cannot

1342
01:17:17,039 --> 01:17:19,560
reveal more and more of himself? No, quite the contrary.

1343
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,520
I'm asking you that since well, I'm not asking you now.

1344
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:26,279
But but my point in my presentation was to say

1345
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:30,199
that if God is a trinity, that should have been

1346
01:17:30,239 --> 01:17:32,000
known from the very start, this is not one of

1347
01:17:32,079 --> 01:17:33,520
the things that God would hide about.

1348
01:17:34,239 --> 01:17:37,199
Speaker 1: That's avoiding where I didn't.

1349
01:17:37,439 --> 01:17:41,039
Speaker 3: You're not let me answer, my friend, Okay, you're avoiding

1350
01:17:41,079 --> 01:17:42,640
the questions equal engagement.

1351
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 1: Going back to the question. Because I asked you now,

1352
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:46,479
I can move on now, I'm.

1353
01:17:46,359 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 3: Trying to clarify what you what you just spoke about,

1354
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:53,439
all right, So you're attributing to me that I'm saying

1355
01:17:53,479 --> 01:17:55,560
that God cannot reveal more and more of himself. And

1356
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,560
what I'm clarifying that what I'm saying is that yes,

1357
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:01,840
God can reveal more or of time, but not something

1358
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:07,000
so essential as the number of persons contained within his being.

1359
01:18:07,479 --> 01:18:11,000
And if you do say that, as you say that

1360
01:18:11,199 --> 01:18:14,079
he revealed the third person of himself. My question that

1361
01:18:14,279 --> 01:18:16,880
was put to you before, and that will come back again,

1362
01:18:17,439 --> 01:18:19,000
is how do you know there is not a fourth,

1363
01:18:19,119 --> 01:18:21,039
or a fifth or an infinite number of them?

1364
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:29,600
Speaker 2: Alrighty now the cross examination, it is reserved ten minutes

1365
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:32,520
back in the time of Ali is able to ask

1366
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:38,520
questions interrupt Gema's answer when you're ready early, Yeah, Before

1367
01:18:39,039 --> 01:18:41,079
I do that, I want to ask you.

1368
01:18:41,319 --> 01:18:43,600
Speaker 3: I mean about the protocol here. I know you said

1369
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,720
that we can interrupt and so on, But are we

1370
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:49,319
supposed to give the other person, if fair, a chance

1371
01:18:49,399 --> 01:18:52,119
to answer or or not? Because I would presume that

1372
01:18:52,279 --> 01:18:54,119
that is the case, we should give the other person

1373
01:18:54,159 --> 01:18:54,840
if you say yes.

1374
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:59,039
Speaker 2: This is the case. But there was some contention on

1375
01:18:59,119 --> 01:19:01,560
the question being now, I can tighten this down if

1376
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:05,640
you need to, but it seemed like a pretty fair

1377
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:10,520
response to ask for for a for a uh an

1378
01:19:10,520 --> 01:19:14,079
actual response to the question. Jay is free to interrupt.

1379
01:19:14,359 --> 01:19:16,439
It didn't seem like it was too uncivil. I can't

1380
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,359
tighten down. And if both of you agree to this,

1381
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:19,920
but it's up to.

1382
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:22,960
Speaker 1: I can move I can move on in my questioning

1383
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,000
if I want to, because it's my interrogation.

1384
01:19:26,199 --> 01:19:28,760
Speaker 2: This is true, that's the that's the point of reversing

1385
01:19:28,840 --> 01:19:29,720
the interrogations.

1386
01:19:31,079 --> 01:19:34,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, but but you know, if if, if the interrogation

1387
01:19:34,319 --> 01:19:35,960
is going to be like this, I mean, I have

1388
01:19:36,119 --> 01:19:39,239
the chance now to play by the same rules, but exactly,

1389
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:41,600
but but I don't want to play by those rules.

1390
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:43,800
I want to ask a question, give the other person

1391
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,960
a fair chance to answer. If there's something to clarify,

1392
01:19:47,159 --> 01:19:50,079
I clarify by means of another question. If the other

1393
01:19:50,159 --> 01:19:52,880
person is taking too long, then yes, that would be

1394
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:56,159
a good point to interrupt. But but if interruption is

1395
01:19:56,319 --> 01:19:59,560
just simply such that the other person does not have

1396
01:19:59,680 --> 01:20:02,520
to hands to answer, which is what I felt was

1397
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:05,159
the case when I was trying to answer Jay recently,

1398
01:20:06,039 --> 01:20:06,680
then to.

1399
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 1: Me, there's a very specific question, and you want.

1400
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:10,239
Speaker 3: To I want to do it that way. If that's

1401
01:20:10,279 --> 01:20:12,760
how it has to be done, then you know we

1402
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:17,279
can end our discussion early because it's not turning out

1403
01:20:17,279 --> 01:20:18,960
to be a discussion. It's going to be a quarrel.

1404
01:20:19,399 --> 01:20:21,479
And the last thing I want to do is quarrel

1405
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:23,760
with Christen's I feel that we have many things in

1406
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:26,760
common and we need to understand each other. I know

1407
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,720
j has studied philosophy, and I can learn something by

1408
01:20:29,800 --> 01:20:34,840
listening to his statements about philosophy. That is his area,

1409
01:20:34,920 --> 01:20:38,319
his specialty. So I want to learn from Jay, but

1410
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:42,479
I also want the opportunity to express my ideas and

1411
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,039
to give him a fair share to express of time

1412
01:20:45,079 --> 01:20:47,960
to express his ideas as well. So let's agree on

1413
01:20:48,079 --> 01:20:53,039
how we're going to proceed, because we have more sessions planned.

1414
01:20:54,319 --> 01:20:57,039
Speaker 2: Because we still have the Revst cross examination, that one

1415
01:20:57,079 --> 01:21:00,960
more round after this, we can come to an agreement.

1416
01:21:01,159 --> 01:21:03,600
What I could do is is ensure that there is

1417
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:05,920
some level of response. But I think that given that

1418
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:06,520
there's only.

1419
01:21:06,399 --> 01:21:09,760
Speaker 1: Ten minutes given, ant has to step in here if

1420
01:21:09,760 --> 01:21:11,119
there's a disagreement between us.

1421
01:21:11,319 --> 01:21:15,359
Speaker 2: So yep, that's what I'm calling now. So since we're

1422
01:21:15,359 --> 01:21:18,319
given about ten minutes, I think that any response that

1423
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:21,479
is probably over thirty seconds to a minute that isn't

1424
01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:24,680
answering the question. It's where I'll start to step in

1425
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:28,000
from here on out. The time is short, which is

1426
01:21:28,199 --> 01:21:31,640
why I allowed the interruption. But if if this is

1427
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:33,960
how you feel and we can we can work from here.

1428
01:21:34,319 --> 01:21:36,800
So that's what we'll do. Is that is this agreeable terms?

1429
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:38,880
Speaker 1: Yep?

1430
01:21:39,039 --> 01:21:39,399
Speaker 3: All right?

1431
01:21:40,199 --> 01:21:42,800
Speaker 2: Cool? Well, when you went to start your examination, that's

1432
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:43,239
one will do it.

1433
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:44,079
Speaker 3: I'm ready.

1434
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:46,760
Speaker 2: What's that the time when you are.

1435
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,760
Speaker 3: Jay In the New Testament, clearly Jesus has a God.

1436
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:55,159
So in John's Gospel he says, I'm ascending to my

1437
01:21:55,279 --> 01:21:58,159
Father and your Father, my God and your God. So

1438
01:21:59,039 --> 01:22:02,399
who is the God of Jesus, the person or the Father?

1439
01:22:04,399 --> 01:22:09,720
So does the Father have a God? So in what

1440
01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:12,800
sense then is Jesus and the Father equal if one

1441
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:14,800
has a God and the other one doesn't.

1442
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:18,239
Speaker 1: By sharing the same nature that the Father communicates to

1443
01:22:18,319 --> 01:22:18,600
the son.

1444
01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:24,399
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, Christians, I understand pray to the Father. Do

1445
01:22:24,520 --> 01:22:25,760
they also pray to the Son?

1446
01:22:26,119 --> 01:22:26,279
Speaker 1: Yes?

1447
01:22:27,119 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 3: Do they also pray to the Holy Spirit? How many

1448
01:22:30,760 --> 01:22:31,880
holy spirits are there?

1449
01:22:32,640 --> 01:22:32,840
Speaker 1: One?

1450
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:37,560
Speaker 3: Why does the Book of Revelations speak of seven spirits?

1451
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:42,199
Speaker 1: Because they are energies of God. They are energies of God.

1452
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:48,119
Speaker 3: Energies did you say, okay, I wasn't sure I heard.

1453
01:22:48,119 --> 01:22:50,680
You're right? Okay, So how many of these energies does

1454
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:51,079
God have?

1455
01:22:51,479 --> 01:22:52,119
Speaker 1: They're infinite?

1456
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:59,039
Speaker 3: Infinite, So there's an infinite number of spirits, no God.

1457
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 1: The spirit is a phrase. It's used to describe different

1458
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:05,199
attributes or powers or actions of God.

1459
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:11,560
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, So, but these various spirits are not

1460
01:23:13,239 --> 01:23:14,880
separate persons in the Godhead.

1461
01:23:15,079 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 1: Correct?

1462
01:23:16,039 --> 01:23:18,199
Speaker 3: Okay, so there were only three persons in the Godhead.

1463
01:23:18,399 --> 01:23:18,720
Speaker 1: Correct?

1464
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:23,960
Speaker 3: So when you ask me about the Quran, and you

1465
01:23:24,039 --> 01:23:27,439
asked me about the various aspects of God and whether

1466
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:31,600
there is a unity or a simplicity or or how

1467
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:34,640
God is at that level, how do you reconcile these

1468
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:38,840
various spirits with the idea that there is only one God?

1469
01:23:40,399 --> 01:23:43,520
Speaker 1: Because, as I said, there are energies. So they are attributes.

1470
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:47,760
Just like in Isaiah eleven, we have the different attributes

1471
01:23:47,840 --> 01:23:50,479
or powers that the Messiah possesses when he speaks of

1472
01:23:50,520 --> 01:23:52,840
the Spirit of knowledge, the spirit of wisdom, et cetera.

1473
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,000
We just see those as different actions or attributes of God.

1474
01:23:56,760 --> 01:24:00,840
Speaker 3: Okay. Now we all understand that Christan are not claiming

1475
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:04,880
that Jesus became God when he was born of Mary.

1476
01:24:05,039 --> 01:24:07,319
He was God from all eternity. If indeed he was

1477
01:24:07,399 --> 01:24:12,560
God from all eternity. Was he a spirit being?

1478
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:16,800
Speaker 1: Not sure what you mean by spirit being, but he

1479
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,319
was the second person of the Godhead. He was a

1480
01:24:19,359 --> 01:24:20,720
divine person from all eternity.

1481
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:24,960
Speaker 3: Yes, so he wasn't flesh. Was he spirit?

1482
01:24:26,119 --> 01:24:28,720
Speaker 1: If by spirit you mean divine nature possessing the same

1483
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:31,920
nature as the Father? Yes, okay.

1484
01:24:32,199 --> 01:24:35,720
Speaker 3: So if the Father and the Son are distinct, and

1485
01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:39,880
each one is a spirit, then we must have had

1486
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:40,640
two spirits.

1487
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:45,239
Speaker 1: No spirit there is representing for us nature or Ussia

1488
01:24:45,439 --> 01:24:45,960
or essence.

1489
01:24:48,079 --> 01:24:49,479
Speaker 3: So then there were two natures.

1490
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:54,199
Speaker 1: No, because we'd make a distinction between nature and person.

1491
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:58,880
Speaker 3: So there's distinction between nature and person, but no distinction

1492
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:00,000
between nature and sp.

1493
01:25:01,159 --> 01:25:04,640
Speaker 1: Again, if in that analogy or that explication that you gave,

1494
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,439
we would understand spirit to represent the Usia or the

1495
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,159
essence there okay.

1496
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:12,399
Speaker 3: So there were there were not two spirits, but there

1497
01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:14,880
was or were there two spirits?

1498
01:25:15,159 --> 01:25:17,720
Speaker 1: Again, this is equivocation on the sense of the word.

1499
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:19,199
This is the word consp fallacy.

1500
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:21,199
Speaker 3: Okay.

1501
01:25:21,399 --> 01:25:23,159
Speaker 1: So like so when Jesus talks to the Woman of

1502
01:25:23,199 --> 01:25:25,760
the well, he says God is spirit, right, he's talking

1503
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:27,720
about the Father. He's not saying the Father is the

1504
01:25:27,800 --> 01:25:30,079
Holy Spirit. He's saying that God in his essence or

1505
01:25:30,159 --> 01:25:34,479
nature is spirit in the sense of being a divine

1506
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:36,119
nature that's beyond created reality.

1507
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:39,319
Speaker 3: How do you know at that point that he was

1508
01:25:39,399 --> 01:25:42,800
referring to God the Father and he wasn't referring to

1509
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:43,960
God the Holy Spirit.

1510
01:25:45,119 --> 01:25:46,680
Speaker 1: Well, it's possible that he could have been. And I

1511
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:49,479
think most of the time, most accidents will make the

1512
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:52,399
point that you made that most of the time Jesus

1513
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:55,479
is saying and directing the worship to the person of

1514
01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:55,840
the Father.

1515
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:00,560
Speaker 3: Okay, and by the same extension, perhaps the answer is

1516
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:02,239
already given, but I'd like to hear it from you.

1517
01:26:02,439 --> 01:26:06,279
How do you know he didn't mean the Trinity is

1518
01:26:06,319 --> 01:26:06,760
a spirit.

1519
01:26:08,159 --> 01:26:11,279
Speaker 1: Well, again, if by spirit you mean representation of the

1520
01:26:11,319 --> 01:26:12,920
divine nature, then he does.

1521
01:26:15,039 --> 01:26:19,079
Speaker 3: So. When he was speaking to the woman at the well,

1522
01:26:19,800 --> 01:26:21,920
you're saying that when he said God is spirit and

1523
01:26:22,000 --> 01:26:27,680
you should worship God in spirit and truth, then he

1524
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:30,560
was studied telling the woman you should worship the Trinity

1525
01:26:31,359 --> 01:26:32,680
because the Trinity is a spirit.

1526
01:26:33,279 --> 01:26:35,520
Speaker 1: It's implied there. But I don't think that just because

1527
01:26:35,560 --> 01:26:38,479
every time that the word trinity, or is not mentioned

1528
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:41,600
that it's not. I mean, for example, in our view,

1529
01:26:41,680 --> 01:26:45,159
if Jesus says I came at the behest of the Father,

1530
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:48,199
just because the Father and the Son are mentioned, it

1531
01:26:48,239 --> 01:26:50,560
doesn't we don't necessarily assume that, Oh well, then there's

1532
01:26:50,600 --> 01:26:54,359
the spirit's not there. In other words, sometimes words can

1533
01:26:55,039 --> 01:26:57,720
encompass a totality, or sometimes they can pick out a

1534
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:01,000
particular just depends on the context. But even within that verse,

1535
01:27:01,039 --> 01:27:04,359
there's a distinction between in our review, two notions of spirit.

1536
01:27:04,399 --> 01:27:04,560
Speaker 3: There.

1537
01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:08,039
Speaker 1: God is spirit, and those who worship must worship in spirit.

1538
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:10,279
So we don't worship in the essence of God, and

1539
01:27:10,359 --> 01:27:14,760
that's not possible. But God himself, in his nature is spiritual.

1540
01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:19,159
Speaker 3: Yes, And so now we're we're at the point where

1541
01:27:19,319 --> 01:27:22,359
the Father is obviously a spirit. According to what you've explained,

1542
01:27:22,439 --> 01:27:25,600
the Holy Spirit by definition must be a spirit, and

1543
01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:28,159
the Son is also a spirit. But you're saying in

1544
01:27:28,279 --> 01:27:32,279
one sense, and yet the three share the same nature.

1545
01:27:33,199 --> 01:27:36,039
But why call them three spirits if you don't mean

1546
01:27:36,079 --> 01:27:38,920
that there are three spirits? You said that different connotations

1547
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:41,520
of words. I get that, but why is it that

1548
01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:45,319
they're always designated as a spirit like this? That the

1549
01:27:45,399 --> 01:27:48,560
Holy Spirit is always a spirit. It's never like, you know,

1550
01:27:48,680 --> 01:27:50,960
the nature of God is here with us today or

1551
01:27:51,039 --> 01:27:53,720
the nature of God is now within the Christians. It's

1552
01:27:53,800 --> 01:27:55,079
always like, I see what you're.

1553
01:27:54,960 --> 01:27:58,039
Speaker 1: Saying, right. So, in our theology, what happens is that

1554
01:27:58,239 --> 01:28:01,800
eventually the expert location of the person of the Spirit

1555
01:28:02,359 --> 01:28:04,920
right when we call him the Holy Spirit. That's not

1556
01:28:05,039 --> 01:28:08,159
identical to saying that God is spirit. Again, it's two

1557
01:28:08,199 --> 01:28:11,000
different uses of the term. That's why when this is

1558
01:28:11,039 --> 01:28:14,520
debated by Basil and the Cappadocians, they explicate that the

1559
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:18,159
two different ways that we distinguish son and spirit are

1560
01:28:18,239 --> 01:28:20,800
not on the basis of the term spirit, but rather

1561
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:24,880
on their origin. So the Son is an eternally generated

1562
01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:28,199
hypostasis of the Father. The Spirit is an eternally preceding

1563
01:28:28,279 --> 01:28:31,399
hypostasis from the Father alone. That's orthodox theology.

1564
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:36,720
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah. So now with this in mind, so

1565
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:40,239
you should worship God in spirit. I understand from some

1566
01:28:40,439 --> 01:28:44,840
Christians that they say, we worship the Father, but we

1567
01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:49,119
worship the Father in the Holy Spirit. But that doesn't

1568
01:28:49,159 --> 01:28:51,239
seem to be your expression. Because I asked you do

1569
01:28:51,279 --> 01:28:53,359
you worship the Holy Spirit? And you say, I think

1570
01:28:53,399 --> 01:28:53,920
you said.

1571
01:28:53,800 --> 01:28:57,119
Speaker 1: Yes, correct. Okay, Now what I said was that we

1572
01:28:57,199 --> 01:28:59,560
don't worship in the essence of God. That's not possible.

1573
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:02,359
That's why we believe in the essence energy distinction, which

1574
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,079
in our view means that there are real distinctions in God,

1575
01:29:05,199 --> 01:29:08,000
not just between Father, Son, and Spirit, but also between

1576
01:29:08,039 --> 01:29:13,000
the diverse actions the manifold add extra operations or activities

1577
01:29:13,039 --> 01:29:15,399
of God. So in our review, the question that you'd

1578
01:29:15,399 --> 01:29:18,119
asked before is are there real distinctions? How do you

1579
01:29:18,159 --> 01:29:20,560
not have the same problems that you're putting on you.

1580
01:29:21,239 --> 01:29:24,279
We believe that we avoid those problems precisely because we

1581
01:29:24,399 --> 01:29:27,079
think there is a distinction between God's essence and his

1582
01:29:27,239 --> 01:29:31,039
operations or energies, and that that distinction is predicated on

1583
01:29:31,439 --> 01:29:34,279
a more fundamental distinction between the Father and the Son

1584
01:29:34,359 --> 01:29:37,199
and the Spirit. They don't do different actions. It's all

1585
01:29:37,319 --> 01:29:40,600
one action and energy by the triad, but it's manifested

1586
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:42,159
in different means and modes and ways.

1587
01:29:43,039 --> 01:29:49,600
Speaker 3: Mm hmm okay, So no undied on the Cross when

1588
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:54,199
the Gospels, when the Sun died on the cross, was

1589
01:29:54,239 --> 01:29:56,720
that the second person of the Holy Trinity dying or

1590
01:29:56,840 --> 01:29:59,560
only the human aspect of this person?

1591
01:30:00,319 --> 01:30:03,119
Speaker 1: Correct? So the second person that God had assumed human

1592
01:30:03,199 --> 01:30:06,359
nature and willed to undergo death in the human nature.

1593
01:30:06,760 --> 01:30:10,000
So the severing of the human soul from the human body,

1594
01:30:10,359 --> 01:30:14,680
in our view, is the thing that Christ willed to undergo,

1595
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:18,399
so he did undergo it. In his singular divine hypostasis

1596
01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:22,159
is he's a divine person, but what he underwent was

1597
01:30:22,279 --> 01:30:24,760
the severing of his human soul from his human body.

1598
01:30:25,159 --> 01:30:28,920
And hence the pauline and patristic teaching of Christ descending

1599
01:30:29,000 --> 01:30:31,680
in his human soul. He's still the divine person, is

1600
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:34,239
still the person to the human soul into the realm

1601
01:30:34,279 --> 01:30:36,920
of Hades to preach to the Old Testament saints.

1602
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:40,119
Speaker 3: Mm hmm, So I'm gonna be sure I understand you.

1603
01:30:40,239 --> 01:30:46,079
J Did the human Christ have within him two souls,

1604
01:30:46,159 --> 01:30:48,079
one human and one divine.

1605
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:51,479
Speaker 1: We don't believe that God in his divinity has a soul.

1606
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:55,079
Soul is a property only of human created nature. God

1607
01:30:55,159 --> 01:30:58,520
has a divine essence, and he possessed the divine essence.

1608
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:02,000
But he underwent no change in terms of his divine essence.

1609
01:31:02,119 --> 01:31:04,479
He only underwent that death and change in terms of

1610
01:31:05,479 --> 01:31:08,239
alteration of nature in the humanity that he assumed.

1611
01:31:10,119 --> 01:31:13,279
Speaker 3: Are you I know you've studied the philosophy, so you

1612
01:31:13,399 --> 01:31:17,880
can educate me on this. Are you taking the view

1613
01:31:18,039 --> 01:31:22,479
of dualism that human beings have a soul that comes

1614
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:26,720
into them, or or do you have the idea that

1615
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:31,279
the soul is somehow the human mind that is connected

1616
01:31:31,359 --> 01:31:32,079
to the human brain.

1617
01:31:34,479 --> 01:31:38,319
Speaker 1: Our view is that body, mind, soul, and will are

1618
01:31:38,359 --> 01:31:42,000
all faculties of human nature, and they're all instantiated in

1619
01:31:42,079 --> 01:31:46,439
the particular human hypostaces or persons. So I'm the particular person, Jay,

1620
01:31:47,000 --> 01:31:49,359
You're the particular person, shah Beer. What we share is

1621
01:31:49,399 --> 01:31:53,239
a common human nature, but we particularize or instantiate that

1622
01:31:53,359 --> 01:31:56,199
nature in a unique way. We think that that, according

1623
01:31:56,239 --> 01:31:59,239
to the Eastern Fathers, is an analogy for the Trinity,

1624
01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:02,199
but obviously not a one to one correspondence, because the

1625
01:32:02,319 --> 01:32:06,039
mode of being that creatures have as distinct, separate, discrete

1626
01:32:07,079 --> 01:32:09,359
beings is obviously not the mode of being that the

1627
01:32:09,399 --> 01:32:12,439
Trinity has, because the Trinity is a unity, so they

1628
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:15,000
always endwell one another. They were never apart. There's no

1629
01:32:15,079 --> 01:32:17,399
spatial relations in God or anything like that. There's no

1630
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:19,600
composition that humans are composed.

1631
01:32:20,680 --> 01:32:22,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know how much more time we have

1632
01:32:22,800 --> 01:32:23,520
for that is time.

1633
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:27,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yeah, it's slang. Jennifinish's pointless. I get the same,

1634
01:32:27,199 --> 01:32:30,479
bea that. So this is the second round a cross examination.

1635
01:32:31,680 --> 01:32:34,960
Just to reminder one try to keep points succynct and

1636
01:32:35,079 --> 01:32:37,800
to try to give your opponent a random least thirty

1637
01:32:37,840 --> 01:32:39,119
seconds to at least maect their point.

1638
01:32:39,319 --> 01:32:42,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, okay.

1639
01:32:42,279 --> 01:32:44,840
Speaker 1: So I want to again ask the question about the

1640
01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:49,039
Old Testament. I would like to know from the Islamic perspective,

1641
01:32:50,399 --> 01:32:54,479
from the chronic perspective, what is the explanation of where

1642
01:32:54,800 --> 01:33:02,520
the temple, the priesthood, the sacrifices, the laws, the levitical priesthood,

1643
01:33:03,159 --> 01:33:06,359
all of those things, where are they? What happened to them?

1644
01:33:06,399 --> 01:33:08,920
And how is their continuity? With all of that being

1645
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:12,800
given and said to be a unity of in terms

1646
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:14,840
of our what I would understand or what did usually

1647
01:33:14,880 --> 01:33:17,920
understand of the Torah to be, how is the does

1648
01:33:18,039 --> 01:33:19,920
Islam explain that where's the continuity?

1649
01:33:21,119 --> 01:33:23,159
Speaker 3: The Quronic position is that there are some things which

1650
01:33:23,199 --> 01:33:26,239
were revealed previously which do not apply to our era.

1651
01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:30,079
And moreover, some things which were revealed previously came to

1652
01:33:30,159 --> 01:33:32,840
be corrupted in the line of transmission over time, and

1653
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:36,560
so those particular commands which are found in the texts

1654
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:39,119
as they are now are not applicable to Muslims.

1655
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:43,319
Speaker 1: So are they corruptions in terms of these gigantic portions

1656
01:33:43,359 --> 01:33:48,159
of Exodus Leviticus numbers or are they no longer applicable?

1657
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:53,319
That could be either what is the epistemic criteria for

1658
01:33:53,439 --> 01:33:56,319
you to know when is which and which are true?

1659
01:33:57,720 --> 01:34:01,760
Speaker 3: As a Muslim, thet epostemic criteria would be my faith

1660
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:05,760
system is starting with the Quran. As an individual, I

1661
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:09,279
would be studying the history and the transmission of these

1662
01:34:09,359 --> 01:34:12,439
documents and studying the documents themselves. For example, you must

1663
01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:15,479
be aware that Jeremiah chapter eight, first number eight says,

1664
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:17,399
how can you say we are wise and we have

1665
01:34:17,600 --> 01:34:19,840
the law of the Lord, whereas the lye in pens

1666
01:34:19,880 --> 01:34:23,960
of describes have falsified it? So this is evidence of

1667
01:34:24,119 --> 01:34:26,880
widespread corruption in the text of the Torah.

1668
01:34:27,199 --> 01:34:29,800
Speaker 1: No, it's only evidence if you assume your position, because

1669
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:34,479
that doesn't mean that Jeremiah himself wasn't going to and

1670
01:34:34,560 --> 01:34:37,439
looking at the Torah. Right, So, Jesus makes the same

1671
01:34:37,560 --> 01:34:40,840
accusation against the Pharisees in Matthew twenty three. Right when

1672
01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:44,079
Jesus says that, echoing what's in Jeremiah in chapter eight,

1673
01:34:44,199 --> 01:34:47,640
that the scribes and Pharisees have all these humanly devised

1674
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:51,079
traditions that they have added on to the Word of God.

1675
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:51,760
Speaker 3: Right.

1676
01:34:52,399 --> 01:34:55,680
Speaker 1: But again, the problem that I'm getting at here is

1677
01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:59,479
that let me now, let me give you a rundown

1678
01:34:59,479 --> 01:35:00,800
here at which I I know you're aware of. But

1679
01:35:01,279 --> 01:35:04,560
in the Koran we have the admission that God chose Adam,

1680
01:35:04,680 --> 01:35:08,439
that the creation account roughly speaking of Genesis is correct.

1681
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:11,640
It admits the events of Exodus. It admits the parting

1682
01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:14,279
of the Red Sea the Golden Calf. It admits that

1683
01:35:14,359 --> 01:35:16,000
the scriptures of the Book of the Law were given

1684
01:35:16,039 --> 01:35:18,520
to Moses. Maybe the Surahs seemed to speak of these

1685
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:21,800
texts as given to Moses as authentic. It admits the

1686
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:25,520
rebellion of kra It admits the rock being smitten and

1687
01:35:25,600 --> 01:35:29,000
the water coming out. It admits that the Covenant was

1688
01:35:29,039 --> 01:35:31,680
given to Moses, the commandments were given to Moses. It

1689
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:35,359
emits seemingly Sabbath of Laws. This is all within Surra two.

1690
01:35:35,800 --> 01:35:40,560
It admits the prophets were sent to Moses and the Israelites,

1691
01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:43,960
or excuse me, to the Israelites. It admits the story

1692
01:35:44,159 --> 01:35:49,199
of the testing of Abraham, the lineage of Abraham Isaac Jacob.

1693
01:35:49,279 --> 01:35:52,920
It admits the some of the dietary laws. Perhaps it

1694
01:35:53,039 --> 01:35:56,640
admits the ee for an eye lex talionis law Leviticus,

1695
01:35:57,079 --> 01:35:59,880
many Old Testament miracles. It affirms the story of David

1696
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:04,840
Saw and those the conquests of David. Admits the psalms

1697
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,800
of David. It admits the revealed truth of the Torah,

1698
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:13,960
and sort of three. So all of these things are admitted,

1699
01:36:14,039 --> 01:36:16,840
and sometimes in some details and sometimes in sort of

1700
01:36:17,039 --> 01:36:18,399
passing this sort.

1701
01:36:18,279 --> 01:36:21,359
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Speaker 1: The whole stories. But what's ironic here is that again

1745
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:01,119
there is just this arbitrary approach from my perspective to

1746
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:05,239
knowing when and where you do with what now are

1747
01:39:05,279 --> 01:39:09,359
you going to say that gigantic portions of Exodus, Leviticus,

1748
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:11,920
and Numbers are all corrupt. But at the same time,

1749
01:39:13,760 --> 01:39:18,760
these stories as they're relayed in the Quran confirm many

1750
01:39:18,760 --> 01:39:19,359
of those counts.

1751
01:39:21,119 --> 01:39:23,840
Speaker 3: So what I would say, Jay, is that the Quran

1752
01:39:24,000 --> 01:39:27,000
tells us that people have corrupted the scriptures before us.

1753
01:39:27,039 --> 01:39:29,079
So for example, in the second chapter of the Quran,

1754
01:39:29,399 --> 01:39:33,319
the seventy ninth verse. So if something is shown to

1755
01:39:33,439 --> 01:39:36,119
us from the older New Testament that is in conformity

1756
01:39:36,279 --> 01:39:38,439
with the faith system that is built on the Quran,

1757
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:42,039
we have no difficulty in accepting that. But if something

1758
01:39:42,479 --> 01:39:45,079
is at odds with that faith system, we take that

1759
01:39:45,199 --> 01:39:48,279
faith system to be correct and true, and that which

1760
01:39:48,359 --> 01:39:51,560
is at oddus with it naturally goes out. But that's

1761
01:39:51,960 --> 01:39:53,720
from the point of view of looking at it from

1762
01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:55,520
within the faith system. But if we look at it

1763
01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:59,359
from outside and we take a neutral view, we will

1764
01:39:59,399 --> 01:40:03,760
see that in the Quran is actually correcting and and

1765
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:07,600
and modifying the stories from the Old and New Testaments

1766
01:40:07,720 --> 01:40:10,520
in order to bring out new themes, new teachings, and

1767
01:40:10,720 --> 01:40:14,399
to remove all problems. Like for example, in Genesis, as

1768
01:40:14,439 --> 01:40:17,560
you mentioned there is they mentioned that the spirit of

1769
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:21,479
God was blowing over the water of the deep, but

1770
01:40:21,680 --> 01:40:24,359
in the Quranic narrative, it was the throne of God

1771
01:40:24,479 --> 01:40:28,000
that was on the water, and the Quran thus is

1772
01:40:28,039 --> 01:40:31,800
avoiding the problems of discussing the spirit of God, because

1773
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:36,560
spirit uh panuma could be breast, it could be life,

1774
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:40,239
it could be something other than spirit, And so to

1775
01:40:40,439 --> 01:40:43,119
the Hebrew word of roach, which is mentioned there in

1776
01:40:43,199 --> 01:40:46,399
Genesis chapter one, that could mean a wind, and some

1777
01:40:46,600 --> 01:40:48,840
English translations of the Bible have it that the wind

1778
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:54,760
was blowing over the water of the deep. So the

1779
01:40:55,079 --> 01:40:57,479
Quran has a different perspective. Whereas in the Book of

1780
01:40:57,560 --> 01:41:03,560
Genesis we have that Adam sinned after Eve gave him

1781
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:07,479
the fruit, and after she herself was beguiled by the devil,

1782
01:41:07,960 --> 01:41:10,880
the Quran puts it that the two of them together

1783
01:41:11,239 --> 01:41:15,039
were deceived by the devil, and the Quran never blames Eve.

1784
01:41:15,119 --> 01:41:19,720
So the Quran is putting a new light on on

1785
01:41:20,039 --> 01:41:21,680
the ancient stories.

1786
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:27,399
Speaker 1: Okay, But again, gigantic portions such as the levitical law,

1787
01:41:27,800 --> 01:41:32,079
such as the temple, the jubileese, the ceremonies are all

1788
01:41:32,279 --> 01:41:36,119
are all those corruptions and made up or given by God.

1789
01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:39,680
Speaker 3: Could be chalking out a new way for the Muslim

1790
01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:43,520
community in particular to worship God. Just as in the

1791
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:46,319
New Testament, it is understood that there are certain laws

1792
01:41:46,359 --> 01:41:48,720
of the Old Testament which have been totally abrogated.

1793
01:41:48,760 --> 01:41:50,680
Speaker 1: Now we don't believe that. That's what I'm getting.

1794
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:53,680
Speaker 3: Friends to have little of the Old Testament law in

1795
01:41:53,840 --> 01:41:55,119
their actual application.

1796
01:41:56,159 --> 01:41:59,840
Speaker 1: So you have no priesthood, no liturgy, no temple, none

1797
01:41:59,880 --> 01:42:04,119
of that, no sacrificial offering, no alter But the Quran

1798
01:42:04,239 --> 01:42:06,600
is based on the eternal commands of God. So God

1799
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:09,600
gave those things and then abrogated them. So God can

1800
01:42:09,680 --> 01:42:10,800
change his eternal decree.

1801
01:42:11,840 --> 01:42:15,680
Speaker 3: God could give some decrees and later on give other

1802
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:17,439
decrees that are more applicable.

1803
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:19,000
Speaker 1: But based on.

1804
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:24,720
Speaker 2: Interruptions, allow Ali to finish this point, least give another

1805
01:42:24,800 --> 01:42:25,319
ten seconds.

1806
01:42:25,960 --> 01:42:29,840
Speaker 3: Okay. So the Quran itself says man an samiha na

1807
01:42:29,880 --> 01:42:33,680
tibiri minha o miss liha. Whatever God abrogates of his

1808
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:37,800
previous commandments and regulations, he brings something better than it

1809
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:40,279
or similar to it. So that's the Quronic position.

1810
01:42:41,039 --> 01:42:44,960
Speaker 1: Okay. So is it part of the eternal, unchanging truth

1811
01:42:45,079 --> 01:42:46,920
of God that God can change?

1812
01:42:48,359 --> 01:42:52,079
Speaker 3: Well, God would not change any eternal and unchanging truth,

1813
01:42:52,199 --> 01:42:55,199
So that would be logically even impossible. But God can

1814
01:42:55,279 --> 01:42:58,840
give commandments for a certain time. They're temporary. And even

1815
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:01,760
the New Testament that it says this that some part

1816
01:43:02,159 --> 01:43:05,159
of the Old Testament were given and then abrogate it,

1817
01:43:05,640 --> 01:43:09,680
and Jesus himself in the Gospels proclaims that something was

1818
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:12,439
given because of the hardness of the hearts of the people.

1819
01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:14,840
Something like this is repeated in the Quran as well.

1820
01:43:15,239 --> 01:43:17,079
So it's not to be an eternal law. If it's

1821
01:43:17,079 --> 01:43:19,880
an eternal law, it's not changeable, okay, So it's a

1822
01:43:19,960 --> 01:43:21,760
temporary one. God can given you one.

1823
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:26,159
Speaker 1: So the Qoran is based on an eternal coron or not.

1824
01:43:28,239 --> 01:43:31,479
Speaker 3: The Quran is an expression of the mind of God.

1825
01:43:31,640 --> 01:43:35,840
It is a communication from God to human beings for

1826
01:43:36,119 --> 01:43:38,119
our time and place.

1827
01:43:38,680 --> 01:43:42,720
Speaker 1: So it's an eternal changing So eternal, there's an eternal

1828
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:46,560
reality to the possibility that the unchanging God can also change,

1829
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:50,880
because you're grounding the argument for the unchanging God in

1830
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:54,479
the Quran, which you're also now saying that God can change,

1831
01:43:54,600 --> 01:43:57,000
because what he's saying in the Quran is based on

1832
01:43:57,079 --> 01:44:00,399
an eternal Quran, but you're admitting that he can change

1833
01:44:00,439 --> 01:44:00,960
those laws.

1834
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:04,600
Speaker 3: God can change the laws. That does not mean that

1835
01:44:04,680 --> 01:44:06,199
God himself changes whether.

1836
01:44:06,079 --> 01:44:07,239
Speaker 1: The laws are based on him.

1837
01:44:07,840 --> 01:44:11,000
Speaker 3: Okay, you're gonna let me answer, right. So whether God

1838
01:44:11,119 --> 01:44:14,319
changes or not is a philosophical problem, and that applies

1839
01:44:14,399 --> 01:44:19,399
to Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. However, can God give

1840
01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:23,640
new laws to replace old ones? Yes, and that is

1841
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:26,840
admitted by Muslims and also by Christians.

1842
01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we don't make the argument that the texts

1843
01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:33,840
of Scripture are based on the eternal text of God.

1844
01:44:36,239 --> 01:44:39,760
Speaker 3: Well, in that case, you're what you're asking about shows

1845
01:44:39,800 --> 01:44:43,680
that there is a misunderstanding about the Muslim idea of scripture.

1846
01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:48,520
And to give a credit to you, Muslims misunderstand this themselves.

1847
01:44:49,199 --> 01:44:54,479
But I understand that the Quran is an expression from God,

1848
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:57,760
a communication from Him that is suitable to our present

1849
01:44:57,840 --> 01:45:01,159
time and place. And God knows so what is suitable

1850
01:45:01,199 --> 01:45:03,199
to our present time and place, and he gives us that.

1851
01:45:03,399 --> 01:45:05,720
He knew what was suitable to a previous people, and

1852
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,520
he gave them that. So the two are not in contradiction.

1853
01:45:09,039 --> 01:45:12,079
There are just different laws applicable to different peoples. There

1854
01:45:12,119 --> 01:45:16,319
are different dispensations, all.

1855
01:45:16,279 --> 01:45:19,640
Speaker 1: Right, So I would reply that I don't think that's

1856
01:45:19,680 --> 01:45:23,039
a sufficient answer to the question about the law itself

1857
01:45:23,119 --> 01:45:26,680
being based on the eternality that is unchanging, and then

1858
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:27,600
it's admitting change.

1859
01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:38,359
Speaker 2: So all right, we have Alai's a cross examination now,

1860
01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:43,439
and then we'll be leading into closing statements. So Ali,

1861
01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:50,439
when you're ready, I'm ready. We'll start the top on you.

1862
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:56,199
We'll start the time when you Yeah.

1863
01:45:56,079 --> 01:45:59,560
Speaker 3: Okay, I've started. Okay, So and Jay, I want to

1864
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:01,960
pick up on what we were discussing previously. I want

1865
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:05,520
to know more about the Christian idea that the second

1866
01:46:05,560 --> 01:46:07,960
Person of the Holy Trinity came to be born as

1867
01:46:07,960 --> 01:46:10,159
a human being. I want to see the unity between

1868
01:46:10,279 --> 01:46:13,920
that second Person of the Holy Trinity and the human person. Now,

1869
01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:17,800
if Mary had conceived normally, she would have a child

1870
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:20,560
that is very similar to us, and that child would

1871
01:46:20,600 --> 01:46:25,079
have a human soul, a human mind, and naturally a

1872
01:46:25,159 --> 01:46:28,319
human body. Now, where does the second Person of the

1873
01:46:28,359 --> 01:46:32,439
Holy Trinity come in and fit within that composition of

1874
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:34,520
the human being that was born from Mary?

1875
01:46:35,319 --> 01:46:39,199
Speaker 1: Right, that's a good question. Our answer is eventually debated

1876
01:46:39,279 --> 01:46:42,920
by Saint Cyril against Astorias the time of Ephesus. I'm

1877
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:45,840
not saying it was invented by him. In the Gospel

1878
01:46:45,880 --> 01:46:49,399
of Luke, you have Jesus being or excuse me, the

1879
01:46:49,560 --> 01:46:53,760
statement is said to Mary, who am I to the

1880
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:56,239
mother of my Lord? Should visit me? So that's where

1881
01:46:56,359 --> 01:46:58,640
Cyril will pick up the notion of the tokos. Not

1882
01:46:59,119 --> 01:47:01,960
just that, but that's one of his ideas. And Cyril's

1883
01:47:01,960 --> 01:47:07,119
explication is that the only person present in Christ throughout

1884
01:47:07,159 --> 01:47:10,239
all of his ministry is the second person of the Godhead.

1885
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:13,920
He does not possess a human personhood or human hypostasis.

1886
01:47:14,000 --> 01:47:17,840
There's no created hypostasis in Christ whatsoever. So he has

1887
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:21,800
a full body, mind, soul, and will in terms of

1888
01:47:21,880 --> 01:47:24,119
human nature. He's fully human in terms of human nature,

1889
01:47:24,239 --> 01:47:27,039
but not a human hypostasis or person in our view.

1890
01:47:28,840 --> 01:47:30,800
Speaker 3: So I'm not sure if I understand you, j So,

1891
01:47:32,079 --> 01:47:35,079
I'm thinking of this simplistically like the person that would

1892
01:47:35,079 --> 01:47:37,680
have been born in Mary. So I understand your answer

1893
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:41,039
that Elizabeth is saying, the mother of my Lord and

1894
01:47:41,680 --> 01:47:43,600
the Lord must be the one that's going to be

1895
01:47:43,640 --> 01:47:48,039
born out of Mary. Now, if Mary had a normal conception,

1896
01:47:48,840 --> 01:47:53,279
then she would have a human child like the rest

1897
01:47:53,319 --> 01:47:56,399
of us, having body, mind, and spirit all human. So

1898
01:47:57,279 --> 01:48:01,119
what did the second Person of the Holy change in this?

1899
01:48:01,520 --> 01:48:04,159
Did the second person of the Holy Spirit replace the

1900
01:48:04,319 --> 01:48:07,760
human mind, the human soul, or any aspect of the

1901
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:09,159
human No.

1902
01:48:09,279 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 1: That would be a pollinarianism. You mean the second person

1903
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:14,640
of the Godhead, the logos. The logos is the person

1904
01:48:14,840 --> 01:48:17,680
in Christ, the only person that's doing or the agent,

1905
01:48:17,760 --> 01:48:20,239
the soul's subject according to serial of all those actions

1906
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:23,239
is the second person of the Godhead. But he possesses

1907
01:48:23,279 --> 01:48:27,119
a fully human nature. That's why for Orthodox theology, again

1908
01:48:27,159 --> 01:48:30,640
based on our trinitary theology, the nature person distinction is

1909
01:48:30,680 --> 01:48:33,760
fundamental to everything that we that we argue about or

1910
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:35,960
explicate when we talk about the trinity, or even when

1911
01:48:35,960 --> 01:48:39,680
we talk about Christology. It's based on our trinitarian distinctions

1912
01:48:39,680 --> 01:48:40,039
as well.

1913
01:48:41,840 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 3: Now you know how the Bible says that God blew

1914
01:48:44,960 --> 01:48:48,640
into Adam and he became a living soul, and Muslims

1915
01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:52,359
have the idea that the soul is breathed into the

1916
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:56,840
womb of the mother. Sometimes it has explained when the

1917
01:48:56,920 --> 01:49:00,399
child is for about four months into the pregnancy. So

1918
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:05,279
this continues that idea of the body mind dualism. So

1919
01:49:07,560 --> 01:49:11,239
are you thinking that the second person of the Holy trinity,

1920
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:17,239
which is a spirit, that spirit was blown into the

1921
01:49:17,319 --> 01:49:19,600
womb of Mary, or you don't think in those terms.

1922
01:49:19,920 --> 01:49:22,760
Speaker 1: No, we don't think in those terms. If to use

1923
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:26,479
the analogy of Adam and Adam's creation, we would say

1924
01:49:26,600 --> 01:49:31,159
that would be the signifying of the creation of a

1925
01:49:31,279 --> 01:49:35,920
human nature for Christ. Again, for us human nature being body, mind, soul, will.

1926
01:49:36,359 --> 01:49:38,640
So the Holy Spirit you could say, was absolutely involved

1927
01:49:38,640 --> 01:49:40,840
in that, because the whole triad is always involved in

1928
01:49:40,920 --> 01:49:44,640
every action, but always in a unique way or motor role.

1929
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:48,239
So the Father sends the son, the Son becomes incarnate,

1930
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,640
and in the Holy Spirit at times perfects and does

1931
01:49:51,840 --> 01:49:53,800
Christ does his miracles by the power of the Father

1932
01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:55,560
and the Spirit and so forth. So we always see

1933
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:58,399
a triadic relationship and reality and all these things. You

1934
01:49:58,479 --> 01:50:01,600
see the the baptism of Christ, do you see Father,

1935
01:50:01,720 --> 01:50:04,880
Son and Spirit manifested. You see this in other instances

1936
01:50:04,920 --> 01:50:09,399
in the gospels. But in terms of his birth specifically,

1937
01:50:10,840 --> 01:50:13,960
we think Jesus created Mary. Mary is a creature. She's

1938
01:50:14,039 --> 01:50:17,920
not divine or semi divine. All the term theotokos is

1939
01:50:17,960 --> 01:50:20,600
intended to signify is that the person that she gave

1940
01:50:20,680 --> 01:50:23,520
birth to is the eternal son of God. So she

1941
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:26,600
didn't cause him to be. All she did was contribute

1942
01:50:26,640 --> 01:50:30,079
to him his human nature. And because we believe that

1943
01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:36,880
the corruption of Adam is passed through Adam's descendants, that's

1944
01:50:37,000 --> 01:50:40,439
why he's born of a virgin Excuse me, is that

1945
01:50:40,880 --> 01:50:44,720
this avoids the corruption of Adam. And so he willingly

1946
01:50:44,880 --> 01:50:48,279
underwent death. He wasn't subject to death, he wasn't subject

1947
01:50:48,359 --> 01:50:50,920
to sin. He willingly underwent those things we say.

1948
01:50:52,640 --> 01:50:55,319
Speaker 3: And so how do you understand the biblical statement a

1949
01:50:55,439 --> 01:50:59,279
body you have prepared for me? You're familiar bit that statement.

1950
01:50:59,039 --> 01:51:01,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, David's a pretty of the creation. We would say,

1951
01:51:01,760 --> 01:51:03,479
that's the creation of Christ human nature.

1952
01:51:05,039 --> 01:51:08,000
Speaker 3: Okay, So the human nature is basically created in the

1953
01:51:08,039 --> 01:51:11,600
womb of Mary. Absolutely, And the second person of the

1954
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:14,079
Holy Spirit comes to me in the second person of

1955
01:51:14,119 --> 01:51:16,640
the Godhead, not the Holy Spirit. Yeah, the second person

1956
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:20,079
of the Trinity comes to be united with that divine nature,

1957
01:51:20,159 --> 01:51:25,079
with that human nature. Yes, But wouldn't that mean that

1958
01:51:25,239 --> 01:51:28,399
that Jesus has two spirits, like the human spirit and

1959
01:51:28,720 --> 01:51:31,439
the Divine Spirit, the second person of the Trinity.

1960
01:51:32,279 --> 01:51:34,239
Speaker 1: Yes, if you mean by spirit nature there we do

1961
01:51:34,279 --> 01:51:35,159
affirm two natures.

1962
01:51:35,239 --> 01:51:40,479
Speaker 3: Yes, Okay, So now Jesus is on the cross according

1963
01:51:40,520 --> 01:51:43,119
to the Gospels, and it looks gospel. He says, Father,

1964
01:51:43,239 --> 01:51:47,319
into your hands, I commit my spirit. So who is

1965
01:51:47,359 --> 01:51:50,880
speaking there, obviously the second person of the Holy Trinity. Truth.

1966
01:51:51,680 --> 01:51:54,680
So when he says I'm committing my spirit into your hands,

1967
01:51:55,039 --> 01:52:00,199
it's not like it's almost like I'm speaking about my spirit.

1968
01:52:00,279 --> 01:52:02,359
This tho, this is another person apart from myself, but

1969
01:52:02,720 --> 01:52:05,600
I mean my own I'm come going into your hands.

1970
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:08,640
So now that means that the second person of the

1971
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:12,359
Holy Trinity. Then and there I exited the body from

1972
01:52:12,399 --> 01:52:15,680
the cross and went into the hands of God.

1973
01:52:16,199 --> 01:52:20,119
Speaker 1: True. No, we don't believe that he ever left the

1974
01:52:20,199 --> 01:52:22,800
right hand of God. He was always with the Father.

1975
01:52:23,439 --> 01:52:26,159
As I stated in the Gospel of John the Second.

1976
01:52:27,680 --> 01:52:29,920
The statement on the cross is signifying in our review,

1977
01:52:30,159 --> 01:52:33,279
their spirit signifies his human spirit as human soul. So

1978
01:52:33,359 --> 01:52:36,760
we think he has all the constituent properties of human nature. Again,

1979
01:52:37,399 --> 01:52:40,319
and so as the perfect exemplar many of the things

1980
01:52:40,359 --> 01:52:43,319
that Jesus is doing throughout his life, saying directing us

1981
01:52:43,359 --> 01:52:45,079
to the Father and so forth, we believe that that

1982
01:52:45,279 --> 01:52:50,439
is because he's not just doing things in a metaphysical way.

1983
01:52:50,479 --> 01:52:53,640
He's also an example for us. He is a moral example.

1984
01:52:53,720 --> 01:52:55,479
We don't believe that he's only a moral example, but

1985
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:57,479
he's also is a moral example. So a lot of

1986
01:52:57,520 --> 01:53:01,680
times he's doing what we call a propriation. So if

1987
01:53:01,880 --> 01:53:04,079
Deuteronomy says that a person who hangs on a tree

1988
01:53:04,199 --> 01:53:07,560
is cursed, my God, by you forsaken me, we see

1989
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:11,119
those as appropriation. He's willingly appropriating in his human nature

1990
01:53:11,640 --> 01:53:14,479
the corruption and the fall from Adam. And so in

1991
01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:16,880
that sense we take the text where he says, into

1992
01:53:16,920 --> 01:53:19,600
your hands, I commend my spirit. That's the perfect model

1993
01:53:19,680 --> 01:53:23,079
of how our death is. When we die, we should

1994
01:53:23,199 --> 01:53:25,680
pray that God take our soul. We don't think that

1995
01:53:25,760 --> 01:53:28,880
the word spirit there necessitates that he means the Holy

1996
01:53:29,000 --> 01:53:31,560
Spirit or the divine nature. He's not saying that. He's

1997
01:53:32,479 --> 01:53:34,520
praying on behalf of an acting on behalf of the

1998
01:53:34,600 --> 01:53:37,720
humanity that he assumed as our example. And also then

1999
01:53:37,760 --> 01:53:41,600
to commend the soul that he assumed to the Father.

2000
01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:45,479
And hence why in our conception of the descent into Hades,

2001
01:53:45,960 --> 01:53:49,159
he descends into Hades to preach the Gospel down there

2002
01:53:49,479 --> 01:53:51,680
in his human soul, which has been severed from the

2003
01:53:51,760 --> 01:53:52,319
human body.

2004
01:53:54,119 --> 01:53:57,720
Speaker 3: Now the second Person of the Holy Trinity is obviously

2005
01:53:57,880 --> 01:54:04,439
unchangeable as a divine person. So he came into this body,

2006
01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:08,399
and he's here on the cross, and and there is

2007
01:54:08,439 --> 01:54:12,720
a human soul that he has somehow assumed, and he's

2008
01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:14,680
going to command that into the hands of the Father,

2009
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:19,039
not then and there at that moment, because obviously that

2010
01:54:19,159 --> 01:54:20,960
soul has to experience death on the cross.

2011
01:54:22,000 --> 01:54:24,640
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I can. I can pray to God,

2012
01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:28,319
you know, God, I commend my soul to you, even

2013
01:54:28,359 --> 01:54:32,000
if I'm undergoing something that God wills to meet to undergo. Right,

2014
01:54:32,039 --> 01:54:33,399
If I mean, if I'm going to die, or if

2015
01:54:33,399 --> 01:54:36,000
I'm undergoing a sickness, I can say, Lord, you know,

2016
01:54:36,039 --> 01:54:38,479
I commend my soul to you, right.

2017
01:54:38,439 --> 01:54:43,760
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay. So then they the one that experiences death

2018
01:54:43,840 --> 01:54:46,600
on the cross is not only the human, but also

2019
01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:49,960
they define a second person of the Holy Trinity.

2020
01:54:51,079 --> 01:54:53,880
Speaker 1: We say that the second Person of Trinity underwent death

2021
01:54:54,079 --> 01:54:57,159
in his human nature, but he himself underwent no change.

2022
01:54:59,039 --> 01:55:01,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, And this is the point then that if he

2023
01:55:01,560 --> 01:55:05,119
underwent no change, then in what sense has he actually

2024
01:55:05,840 --> 01:55:09,880
suffered death? Because it would seem as if the second

2025
01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:12,960
Person of the Holy Trinity existed from all eternity as

2026
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:16,199
an unchangeable being. He just assumed a sort of unity

2027
01:55:16,720 --> 01:55:21,239
with a physical object in this world, almost like a cloak.

2028
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:24,239
He wore that for a while, and then he abandoned

2029
01:55:24,239 --> 01:55:27,960
it later on, and he's still the unchangeable, eternal second

2030
01:55:27,960 --> 01:55:30,479
person of the Holy Trinity. In what sense did the

2031
01:55:30,600 --> 01:55:32,439
second person experience death?

2032
01:55:34,159 --> 01:55:35,560
Speaker 1: By the way, in our view, we do not believe

2033
01:55:35,600 --> 01:55:38,119
he ever abandoned it ever at any point. The whole

2034
01:55:38,199 --> 01:55:40,359
purpose of all the actions that he's doing is the

2035
01:55:40,479 --> 01:55:43,640
restoration and salvation of human nature. And that's in our

2036
01:55:43,720 --> 01:55:46,479
view why we believe all men are resurrected is because

2037
01:55:47,079 --> 01:55:52,039
Christ assumed human nature and by thereby extends this this

2038
01:55:52,239 --> 01:55:54,920
power to the totality of human nature being read even

2039
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:57,079
the wicked we believe or resurrected on the basis of

2040
01:55:57,159 --> 01:55:59,560
this incarnation. That doesn't mean that they're going to be saved.

2041
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:02,319
But so no, he was never separated from God. He

2042
01:56:02,439 --> 01:56:05,680
was never He never underwent change in his divine nature,

2043
01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:08,720
but he did assume a human nature that was able

2044
01:56:08,800 --> 01:56:12,039
to undergo change. I mean, he walked around, he ate.

2045
01:56:12,760 --> 01:56:16,119
We believe he slept right, not because he in his

2046
01:56:16,199 --> 01:56:18,359
divinity needed those things, but he did it all for

2047
01:56:18,560 --> 01:56:21,800
our sakes. So, as Saint gregy Nazianzus says, everything that

2048
01:56:21,920 --> 01:56:24,640
Christ did, he did for our sakes. Whatever is not

2049
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:27,520
assumed in the human nature is not healed. But because

2050
01:56:27,520 --> 01:56:29,479
he assumed the totality of our human nature, and he

2051
01:56:29,560 --> 01:56:32,960
lived through every stage of humanity. As Aeronaea says in

2052
01:56:33,039 --> 01:56:36,359
terms of the recapitulation, he recapitulated all the stages of

2053
01:56:36,439 --> 01:56:40,840
human life, from birth all the way to mature adulthood.

2054
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:44,520
So he's thereby able to save anybody in any state,

2055
01:56:44,920 --> 01:56:48,000
and in fact that salvation will come to all human nature.

2056
01:56:48,199 --> 01:56:52,399
But how we as individuals lived according to God's law

2057
01:56:52,560 --> 01:56:56,479
or violated God's law will determine how we experienced the afterlife.

2058
01:56:57,760 --> 01:56:57,960
Speaker 3: Cool.

2059
01:56:58,039 --> 01:57:01,800
Speaker 2: Thank you very much into closing statements at this point,

2060
01:57:02,560 --> 01:57:04,399
I do believe Jay is at first, you have seven

2061
01:57:04,479 --> 01:57:08,880
minutes to summarize your arguments. Okay, I will start and

2062
01:57:08,920 --> 01:57:09,560
come when you're ready.

2063
01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:18,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I find it. So this has been a

2064
01:57:19,960 --> 01:57:23,880
great discussion, very engaging. I've learned things that I wasn't

2065
01:57:23,880 --> 01:57:26,600
aware of, so I want to thank doctor Shabir for that.

2066
01:57:27,720 --> 01:57:30,520
My closing analysis would be that I think that the

2067
01:57:30,600 --> 01:57:33,199
majority of the texts that I've listed, again, many of

2068
01:57:33,279 --> 01:57:38,720
those are not vague. They actually deal with several cases

2069
01:57:38,840 --> 01:57:44,439
where the the Angel of the Lord is not merely

2070
01:57:44,560 --> 01:57:47,960
a created being but in fact identified as God himself. Again,

2071
01:57:47,960 --> 01:57:50,520
I gave many of those those examples, and so and

2072
01:57:50,640 --> 01:57:53,520
I think the first or second rebuttal of doctor Shabir

2073
01:57:54,439 --> 01:57:56,840
went into talking about Gabriel and angels when I had

2074
01:57:56,880 --> 01:58:00,319
already talked about the fact that I made the distinction

2075
01:58:00,439 --> 01:58:03,279
between sometimes angel can be a create an angelic being,

2076
01:58:03,800 --> 01:58:06,479
and sometimes it can be referred to as God himself,

2077
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:10,640
to which he then said, well, there's clearer texts that

2078
01:58:10,840 --> 01:58:14,600
say X y Z. One of the problems with the

2079
01:58:14,960 --> 01:58:18,239
notion of the philosophy and language or the way that

2080
01:58:18,319 --> 01:58:21,880
we understand interpretation. He's an exegete, he's a herminuticist. He

2081
01:58:22,159 --> 01:58:28,000
should know that there's no primopostia way necessarily to know

2082
01:58:28,119 --> 01:58:32,319
when something is clear. That's all based on the assumptions

2083
01:58:32,359 --> 01:58:34,600
that we have about our position or this or that. Now,

2084
01:58:35,239 --> 01:58:38,760
in a relative sense, could you say that something is clearer? Sure,

2085
01:58:39,119 --> 01:58:42,880
But again that's going to be depending upon one's system

2086
01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:46,640
or one's paradigm to know which, in fact this or

2087
01:58:46,680 --> 01:58:49,319
that text is clearer. And so if I have a

2088
01:58:49,359 --> 01:58:54,039
presupposition about the transcendence and unity of God that's somehow say,

2089
01:58:54,199 --> 01:58:58,039
superior to distinctions in God, then I'm going to automatically

2090
01:58:58,119 --> 01:59:00,199
see that any of the texts that I go to

2091
01:59:00,399 --> 01:59:03,119
that that talk about God's unity, they're somehow clearer.

2092
01:59:03,319 --> 01:59:03,439
Speaker 3: Right.

2093
01:59:04,199 --> 01:59:08,520
Speaker 1: But in the the way that Deuteronomy phrases the the

2094
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:12,399
the laws about coming prophets, right, we are told that

2095
01:59:12,680 --> 01:59:15,399
a prophet must speak in accord with previous revelation. He

2096
01:59:15,439 --> 01:59:17,239
can't speak out of a chord of it with it. Right,

2097
01:59:18,239 --> 01:59:20,359
that that becomes I think problematic when we get into

2098
01:59:20,439 --> 01:59:24,319
Ezekiel or these other texts Ezekiel one, Ezekiel ten, where

2099
01:59:24,399 --> 01:59:28,239
we have this again son of Man character, which he

2100
01:59:28,399 --> 01:59:31,920
said was a poetic device. Now that's interesting because I

2101
01:59:32,000 --> 01:59:34,640
don't think it's in any way plausible to say that

2102
01:59:34,800 --> 01:59:39,000
in Daniel seven it's a representation of Israel, that is

2103
01:59:39,159 --> 01:59:42,840
before the ancient of days. This is the angel, This

2104
01:59:43,000 --> 01:59:45,159
is the the one like a son of Man who

2105
01:59:45,319 --> 01:59:49,920
was present in the the fiery furnace. Right, the story

2106
01:59:50,000 --> 01:59:54,199
of Daniel of the the the Angel, we would say,

2107
01:59:54,239 --> 01:59:55,640
the Angel of the Lord won like a son of

2108
01:59:55,720 --> 01:59:57,960
man in the fiery furnace, So is that the same

2109
01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:01,039
is that the representation of Israel in the fiery furnace.

2110
02:00:01,359 --> 02:00:06,359
I don't find the poetic explanation very convincing. And on

2111
02:00:06,479 --> 02:00:09,000
top of that, there's many many cases in Isaiah where

2112
02:00:09,359 --> 02:00:11,880
especially Isaiah fifty three with the suffering Servant, where it

2113
02:00:11,960 --> 02:00:13,680
can be both and it doesn't have to be either.

2114
02:00:13,800 --> 02:00:16,279
Or is there an element to a historical fulfillment in

2115
02:00:16,359 --> 02:00:20,479
Isaiah with the suffering Servant of Israel and her history. Absolutely,

2116
02:00:20,720 --> 02:00:24,560
but that doesn't negate the possibility of but also having

2117
02:00:24,600 --> 02:00:28,199
a deeper fulfillment in the person of Christ when he

2118
02:00:28,279 --> 02:00:31,960
came as the consummation and fulfillment of who and what

2119
02:00:32,279 --> 02:00:35,319
Israel is and was and what was her historic mission.

2120
02:00:35,880 --> 02:00:38,079
I would add two Again, something I didn't get to

2121
02:00:38,239 --> 02:00:42,439
in my initial discussion was on top of messianic prophecies,

2122
02:00:42,720 --> 02:00:45,479
it's not just messianic prophecies about who the Messiah would be,

2123
02:00:45,640 --> 02:00:47,880
and many of the ones that I listed, there's also

2124
02:00:48,079 --> 02:00:52,479
predictions of again the gentile Church when the Messiah comes.

2125
02:00:52,560 --> 02:00:55,239
One of the key signs that everyone will know signifies

2126
02:00:55,279 --> 02:00:59,680
that the Messiah has come is specifically the conversion in

2127
02:00:59,720 --> 02:01:02,800
math of many of the gentile nations to the Messiah

2128
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:07,119
and that would make up his kingdom. Jeremiah twenty five eighteen, sixteen,

2129
02:01:07,279 --> 02:01:09,960
nineteen through twenty one, thirty eight, thirty one to thirty four,

2130
02:01:10,119 --> 02:01:13,199
Jeremiah three, fourteen to nineteen, Hoseiah one, ten and eleven,

2131
02:01:13,600 --> 02:01:16,960
Malachi won eleven and twelve, I back At two, fourteen

2132
02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:20,479
and fifteen, Ezekiel forty seven, twenty one to twenty three,

2133
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:24,880
Micah four one through four, Zechariah two fifteen eight, twenty

2134
02:01:24,920 --> 02:01:28,680
one to twenty three, Toba thirteen thirteen, Tobait fourteen five

2135
02:01:28,720 --> 02:01:32,119
through seven, Joel, and acts. If you look at Acts

2136
02:01:32,199 --> 02:01:35,520
two the way Acts two sites Joel, Isaiah twenty five

2137
02:01:35,720 --> 02:01:39,600
six through eight, Isaiah twenty four, fourteen through seventeen, Isaiah

2138
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:42,680
forty two one through eight, Amos nine, eleven and twelve,

2139
02:01:43,159 --> 02:01:47,479
Isaiah forty two four, Isaiah forty nine one through six,

2140
02:01:47,920 --> 02:01:51,000
Verse eight twenty two to twenty three of that same chapter,

2141
02:01:51,239 --> 02:01:53,880
Isaiah nine one and two, Isaiah eleven ten through twelve,

2142
02:01:55,239 --> 02:01:58,800
saw Them eighty six, Psalm sixty seven, Psalm one ten,

2143
02:01:59,159 --> 02:02:03,159
Isaiah sixty seve, Isaiah fifty one through seven, Isaiah fifty

2144
02:02:03,159 --> 02:02:06,720
four two and three, Isaiah fifty five, Isaiah eighteen twenty

2145
02:02:06,800 --> 02:02:09,680
to twenty five, many many more. But now are we

2146
02:02:09,760 --> 02:02:14,279
going to think that these are all textual corruptions? Why

2147
02:02:14,319 --> 02:02:19,239
would Jews textually corrupt things that would aid Christians? Right now,

2148
02:02:19,319 --> 02:02:21,600
maybe they didn't know, you know, maybe the subtuasion had

2149
02:02:21,640 --> 02:02:25,039
all these texts that the Christians misappropriated. But when we

2150
02:02:25,079 --> 02:02:28,119
start getting into this corruption of the texts, it doesn't

2151
02:02:28,159 --> 02:02:30,119
really make any sense to see how the corruption of

2152
02:02:30,199 --> 02:02:32,680
all of these texts, or the corruption of all of

2153
02:02:32,760 --> 02:02:36,319
what's going in Leviticus and Numbers and Exodus, how in

2154
02:02:36,399 --> 02:02:40,399
any way that aids the Jewish case, Like, what purpose

2155
02:02:40,520 --> 02:02:42,840
does it serve for them to corrupt all those texts?

2156
02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:47,000
And in my estimation of the when I was doing

2157
02:02:47,000 --> 02:02:50,640
the interrogation, I didn't hear, to my satisfaction, a coherent

2158
02:02:50,720 --> 02:02:53,319
response as to where all of those texts are or

2159
02:02:53,560 --> 02:02:57,720
what happened to all this alter sacrifice, et cetera. Now

2160
02:02:57,760 --> 02:03:00,479
that argument might be turned on me, well, you don't

2161
02:03:00,520 --> 02:03:03,920
have an altar, you don't have the sacrifice as it's

2162
02:03:04,000 --> 02:03:06,520
laid out, But actually we do. Again, the whole Book

2163
02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:10,760
of Hebrews is dedicated to Paul interpreting the significance the

2164
02:03:10,800 --> 02:03:16,520
spiritual reality that all of those Levitical and Exodus Tabernacle

2165
02:03:16,760 --> 02:03:20,720
ceremonies that they have for us. So in fact, absolutely

2166
02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:25,279
it is correct that Jesus did not come to abrogate

2167
02:03:25,319 --> 02:03:28,600
the law, but rather to fulfill right. So in fact,

2168
02:03:28,880 --> 02:03:31,840
if you look at the way Paul consistently cites Leviticus,

2169
02:03:31,920 --> 02:03:35,359
or when he cites Deuteronomy, or when he cites ceremonial

2170
02:03:35,439 --> 02:03:39,079
laws as they are sometimes called, Paul applies those spiritual

2171
02:03:39,159 --> 02:03:42,800
principles to the church. And the law was always intended

2172
02:03:42,840 --> 02:03:44,119
to have a spiritual principle.

2173
02:03:44,199 --> 02:03:44,279
Speaker 3: Right.

2174
02:03:44,359 --> 02:03:47,560
Speaker 1: Leviticus says in Leviticus nineteen, you shall not hate your

2175
02:03:47,600 --> 02:03:50,640
brother from your heart right. So when Jesus is saying

2176
02:03:50,680 --> 02:03:53,640
you have to love your brother right, he's in harmony

2177
02:03:53,760 --> 02:03:57,239
with Leviticus. So we actually put a strong stress on

2178
02:03:57,319 --> 02:04:00,479
the continuity of the old into the new time. And

2179
02:04:00,560 --> 02:04:02,319
in fact, I would argue that one of the strongest

2180
02:04:02,359 --> 02:04:05,920
proofs of Christianity in the deity of Christ is precisely

2181
02:04:06,119 --> 02:04:09,479
all of what you see in the Exodus revelation of

2182
02:04:09,600 --> 02:04:12,880
the Tabernacle, all of what you see in Leviticus, even

2183
02:04:12,920 --> 02:04:15,800
down to the point of the eighth Days, circumcision, Jesus

2184
02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:20,760
and Luke. Right, we get into numbers the ceremonies. Yeah,

2185
02:04:20,960 --> 02:04:22,239
that all points to christ.

2186
02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:27,840
Speaker 2: Cool. Thank you very much, Doctor Elie. Your closing statement.

2187
02:04:27,880 --> 02:04:29,119
When you begin speaking, I'll start the time.

2188
02:04:30,119 --> 02:04:35,039
Speaker 3: Okay. So, ladies and gentlemen, viewers from around the globe,

2189
02:04:35,079 --> 02:04:40,199
and our generous moderator here and Jay, it's been a

2190
02:04:40,239 --> 02:04:44,079
pleasure speaking with all of you today, and obviously we

2191
02:04:44,159 --> 02:04:47,960
need to continue this very interesting conversation. Muslims and Christians

2192
02:04:48,039 --> 02:04:51,079
have a lot in common, more than the differences that

2193
02:04:51,279 --> 02:04:55,000
we experience, and we need to emphasize the commonalities and

2194
02:04:55,479 --> 02:04:59,119
minimize the difference. Is nowadays we're all faced with common problems,

2195
02:04:59,159 --> 02:05:04,920
for example COVID nineteen that call for a collective response

2196
02:05:05,399 --> 02:05:10,319
from Muslims, Christians and others working in hand together to

2197
02:05:10,479 --> 02:05:14,159
produce a safer, a better world for ourselves, for our

2198
02:05:14,239 --> 02:05:18,720
future generations and for all people. Having said that, at

2199
02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:23,039
the same time, we like to know the bottom line

2200
02:05:23,079 --> 02:05:26,359
of certain things that puzzle us. For example, was Jesus

2201
02:05:27,239 --> 02:05:31,920
really the divine son of God? Or was he God incarnate?

2202
02:05:33,000 --> 02:05:36,880
And in this dialogue we have looked at scripture, at history,

2203
02:05:37,039 --> 02:05:40,079
and that the logic to answer this question. As for

2204
02:05:40,199 --> 02:05:43,600
the logic, it came out in our conversation, at least

2205
02:05:43,600 --> 02:05:46,479
in my own mind, that there are some logical problems

2206
02:05:46,560 --> 02:05:50,319
involved with saying that Jesus was the second person of

2207
02:05:50,359 --> 02:05:53,159
the Holy Trinity now as a human being. We saw

2208
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:57,239
in my discussion with Jay that is very difficult to

2209
02:05:57,359 --> 02:06:00,279
conceive of the second person of the Holy Trinity dining

2210
02:06:00,359 --> 02:06:03,119
with the human body and not replacing the human soul

2211
02:06:03,840 --> 02:06:07,479
and still resulting in there being only one soul in

2212
02:06:08,000 --> 02:06:10,680
the man Jesus. It seems that he should have had

2213
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:14,000
a human soul plus a divine entity that is in

2214
02:06:14,199 --> 02:06:17,359
him a divine soul or a divine spirit as well.

2215
02:06:18,239 --> 02:06:21,920
We saw that when Jesus was on the cross dying,

2216
02:06:22,239 --> 02:06:24,720
then there is a question as to whether the divine

2217
02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:27,640
second person of the Holy Trinity would have died along

2218
02:06:27,760 --> 02:06:30,439
with the human person. If you say that the divine

2219
02:06:30,520 --> 02:06:33,680
person did not die, then in what sense did the

2220
02:06:33,760 --> 02:06:37,520
whole scheme come into play to say that God had

2221
02:06:37,560 --> 02:06:40,680
to become a human in order to die. If God,

2222
02:06:40,960 --> 02:06:45,479
in the final analysis, doesn't actually die, if God stays

2223
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:49,880
with that body and experiences the death, because God by

2224
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:53,159
himself could not experience death, and he needed a human

2225
02:06:53,279 --> 02:06:56,800
body that could die so that God could experience death. Still,

2226
02:06:56,880 --> 02:06:59,039
we would want to know more about that experience. What

2227
02:06:59,119 --> 02:07:02,720
does it mean to say that God has now experienced death?

2228
02:07:03,039 --> 02:07:05,520
These are all difficult problems. And if this was God

2229
02:07:05,560 --> 02:07:08,079
who actually died, if he really died in the sense

2230
02:07:08,119 --> 02:07:10,640
of the word that we know it, then we might

2231
02:07:10,720 --> 02:07:13,119
be asking, well, who was running the world in the

2232
02:07:13,199 --> 02:07:16,319
time that he stayed death? They stayed dead. So these

2233
02:07:16,359 --> 02:07:19,199
are difficult problems. If there were only two persons who

2234
02:07:19,239 --> 02:07:22,159
are known in the Old Testament, as Jay has been

2235
02:07:22,239 --> 02:07:25,039
at pains to show with many passages referring to the

2236
02:07:25,119 --> 02:07:28,520
Angel of the Lord, trying to prove that this means

2237
02:07:28,600 --> 02:07:31,159
that there was the Father plus the Angel of the Lord.

2238
02:07:31,199 --> 02:07:35,359
There are two of them. Then if that is the case,

2239
02:07:35,479 --> 02:07:38,680
and then a third one comes to be eventually revealed

2240
02:07:38,760 --> 02:07:41,239
in the New Testament, how do we know that there

2241
02:07:41,319 --> 02:07:43,720
isn't a fourth one out there who might be revealed

2242
02:07:43,720 --> 02:07:46,279
in the future or who might never be revealed, in

2243
02:07:46,399 --> 02:07:48,720
which case, to say that there is a trinity it

2244
02:07:48,840 --> 02:07:52,560
really falls short of declaring who God actually is, because

2245
02:07:52,600 --> 02:07:57,000
he could be like a quaternity or something different. We

2246
02:07:57,199 --> 02:08:00,680
just don't know, and these are very difficult alton logical

2247
02:08:00,760 --> 02:08:07,479
problems to deal with. Now, coming to the history behind this,

2248
02:08:07,720 --> 02:08:11,079
we see that in fact there was a progression of thought.

2249
02:08:11,199 --> 02:08:17,239
I don't believe that Jay replied to my mention that

2250
02:08:18,239 --> 02:08:22,439
Martin the Justin Martin had the idea that Jesus was

2251
02:08:22,520 --> 02:08:26,319
like an angel. In fact, it seems that there was

2252
02:08:26,399 --> 02:08:31,079
a progression of thought, and over time the scholars solidified

2253
02:08:31,319 --> 02:08:34,520
the idea that Jesus is deity, and that was pronounced

2254
02:08:34,880 --> 02:08:37,000
finally in the Council of Nicea in the Yearly three

2255
02:08:37,039 --> 02:08:39,600
hundred and twenty five eighty, and then in the subsequent

2256
02:08:39,760 --> 02:08:43,239
Nicean Council Nicien Council, it was finally declared that the

2257
02:08:43,319 --> 02:08:46,079
Holy Spirit is worshiped along with the Father and the Son.

2258
02:08:46,359 --> 02:08:51,560
So there's a clear development of ideas from the New

2259
02:08:51,600 --> 02:08:55,920
Testament writings to the Creeds, starting with the Apostles Creed

2260
02:08:56,199 --> 02:08:58,520
from the second century and then going all the way

2261
02:08:58,560 --> 02:09:03,720
to the atheen Asian Creed the sixth century. Coming now

2262
02:09:03,840 --> 02:09:07,039
to scripture, it is clear from scripture as well that

2263
02:09:07,079 --> 02:09:10,239
scripture is part of that development. In the Old Testament. Yes,

2264
02:09:10,359 --> 02:09:13,520
there are verses that are difficult to understand there is

2265
02:09:13,600 --> 02:09:15,680
this mention of the Angel of the Lord, who could

2266
02:09:15,720 --> 02:09:17,760
be an Angel of the Lord, which could means that

2267
02:09:17,840 --> 02:09:20,359
there could be many others, And that Angel of the

2268
02:09:20,439 --> 02:09:23,560
Lord is shown in Luke's Gospel to be the Angel Gabriel,

2269
02:09:23,760 --> 02:09:26,600
and Christians do not take the Angel Gabriel to be God.

2270
02:09:26,920 --> 02:09:29,159
So that means there is a picking and choosing of

2271
02:09:29,319 --> 02:09:31,720
some verses of the Bible that align with a certain

2272
02:09:32,079 --> 02:09:35,199
way of interpreting the whole Bible, and there are certain

2273
02:09:35,319 --> 02:09:39,119
verses which are left aside, and these verses show that

2274
02:09:39,239 --> 02:09:41,479
there was an ambiguity about the one who was referred

2275
02:09:41,520 --> 02:09:44,119
to as the Angel of the Lord. This is why

2276
02:09:44,199 --> 02:09:47,840
Michael Bird, in his book How Jesus Became How God

2277
02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:51,880
Became Jesus, though he subscribes to the idea that Jesus God,

2278
02:09:52,079 --> 02:09:55,600
nonetheless he says very clearly that the mention of the

2279
02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:58,520
Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is an enigma,

2280
02:09:58,760 --> 02:10:01,279
so you cannot build too much on that, Whereas, on

2281
02:10:01,319 --> 02:10:03,640
the other hand, there are clear texts which say that

2282
02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:06,199
there is only one God, that God is Yeahweh, He's

2283
02:10:06,279 --> 02:10:09,680
given by name, and Jesus obviously is not Yahweh. In

2284
02:10:09,760 --> 02:10:12,159
Matthew chapter twelve, verse eighteen. He's shown to be the

2285
02:10:12,279 --> 02:10:14,880
servant of Yahweh, who is sent by Yahweh. It is

2286
02:10:15,000 --> 02:10:17,159
clear in the gospels that he falls on his face

2287
02:10:17,279 --> 02:10:20,640
and worships Yahweh. For example, Matthew chapter twenty six, verse

2288
02:10:20,720 --> 02:10:22,520
number thirty nine, he declares.

2289
02:10:22,600 --> 02:10:23,640
Speaker 2: Even in John's.

2290
02:10:23,359 --> 02:10:27,920
Speaker 3: Gospel that has the most developed Christology, Jesus declares that

2291
02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:30,520
the one he's praying to is the only true God

2292
02:10:30,680 --> 02:10:34,840
John chapter seventeen, verse number three. Even in Paul, whose

2293
02:10:34,960 --> 02:10:38,239
letters that display a high Christology, showing Jesus to be

2294
02:10:38,319 --> 02:10:42,479
the agent of creation through which God made everything else. Still, Paul,

2295
02:10:42,600 --> 02:10:45,520
in one Corinthian chapter eight, verses number six to eight,

2296
02:10:46,079 --> 02:10:48,680
declares that there is only one God, the Father, and

2297
02:10:49,079 --> 02:10:52,079
one Lord, Jesus Christ. So Jesus is called the Lord

2298
02:10:52,640 --> 02:10:54,840
but not God, and the one who is called God

2299
02:10:54,920 --> 02:10:57,880
and said to be the only God, that is God

2300
02:10:58,279 --> 02:11:01,199
the Father. So we have seen, then, in putting it

2301
02:11:01,279 --> 02:11:05,000
all together, that the idea that Jesus is God is

2302
02:11:05,039 --> 02:11:06,920
not something that Jesus himself taught.

2303
02:11:07,039 --> 02:11:07,079
Speaker 2: No.

2304
02:11:07,279 --> 02:11:08,880
Speaker 3: Rather, he said, why do you call me good? No

2305
02:11:08,960 --> 02:11:11,840
one is good but God alone, differentiating between himself and

2306
02:11:11,960 --> 02:11:18,319
God and demuring from attributing to himself the position of deity.

2307
02:11:19,399 --> 02:11:22,920
It's not in the scripture at all. First John, Chapter seven,

2308
02:11:23,079 --> 02:11:26,199
verse number five to seven is a later insertion, and

2309
02:11:26,399 --> 02:11:30,000
the history shows as the later development and logic is

2310
02:11:30,039 --> 02:11:33,399
the thing that Christian's continue to struggle with. Thank you all,

2311
02:11:34,079 --> 02:11:34,720
God bless you.

2312
02:11:36,159 --> 02:11:40,720
Speaker 2: Alright in time. Thank you both for a fantastic discussion.

2313
02:11:40,760 --> 02:11:44,399
It's really interesting to hear as someone who's not as

2314
02:11:44,479 --> 02:11:48,560
well versed in these discussions. It's a great conversation taking

2315
02:11:48,560 --> 02:11:51,279
you to you both. So we have time for a

2316
02:11:51,359 --> 02:11:53,640
Q and a session. Now I have a family engagement

2317
02:11:54,640 --> 02:11:57,199
in a short amount of time, so I can do

2318
02:11:57,479 --> 02:11:59,880
about probably fifteen to twenty minutes of Q and as

2319
02:11:59,880 --> 02:12:00,640
agreeable you.

2320
02:12:00,680 --> 02:12:03,439
Speaker 3: Both, Yeah, sure sure, I myself would like to run

2321
02:12:03,520 --> 02:12:06,159
early unless I take a break before that. I could

2322
02:12:06,199 --> 02:12:09,239
either take a break and let Jay field the first

2323
02:12:09,279 --> 02:12:12,840
few questions and come back in ten minutes, or if

2324
02:12:12,880 --> 02:12:15,159
we are aiming to finish at about like eight thirty

2325
02:12:15,279 --> 02:12:17,520
or so, that that's good for me.

2326
02:12:17,880 --> 02:12:21,640
Speaker 1: We do fifteen minutes and then finished, was I sorry,

2327
02:12:22,079 --> 02:12:24,039
just do fifteen minutes and then finished with that work?

2328
02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:25,119
Speaker 3: Yeah?

2329
02:12:25,880 --> 02:12:28,920
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, sure, So we're looking to uh we'll look

2330
02:12:28,960 --> 02:12:32,680
to Jay's YouTube chat. Is that where we'll quick questions from. Yeah,

2331
02:12:33,560 --> 02:12:35,920
Unfortunately with the subject makes it a little bit more difficult.

2332
02:12:37,119 --> 02:12:40,600
So I'm watching the chat. I'm pretty sure you can

2333
02:12:40,640 --> 02:12:42,840
look at me or something with our questions that you have,

2334
02:12:44,399 --> 02:12:46,720
or if you guys both, I'm guessing about looking at

2335
02:12:46,720 --> 02:12:48,640
the chat, you can pick questions out as well that

2336
02:12:48,640 --> 02:12:49,319
you find interesting.

2337
02:12:51,840 --> 02:12:55,199
Speaker 1: All right, I'll kick one off here. There's a question

2338
02:12:55,279 --> 02:12:57,600
for doctor Shadier and I don't know who iPhone is.

2339
02:12:57,720 --> 02:13:02,399
This is just random questions here their question for doctor Shiver.

2340
02:13:02,640 --> 02:13:05,479
You claim Surah two seventy nine talks about the corruption

2341
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:09,960
of scripture. Why does no early Islamic scholar hold to

2342
02:13:10,039 --> 02:13:10,760
that interpretation?

2343
02:13:14,640 --> 02:13:18,439
Speaker 3: So many many of the classical Islamic scholars prefer to

2344
02:13:18,520 --> 02:13:22,640
take the view that the scriptures are misinterpreted rather than

2345
02:13:23,199 --> 02:13:25,960
to be corrupted, and we find this in a wide

2346
02:13:26,039 --> 02:13:32,640
variety of commentary on this passage as well. However, when

2347
02:13:32,640 --> 02:13:35,479
the Muslim scholars come to Suo for verse number one

2348
02:13:35,600 --> 02:13:39,960
fifty seven that speaks about the question of the crucifixion

2349
02:13:40,000 --> 02:13:43,359
of Jesus, and they're clear that they do not actually

2350
02:13:43,479 --> 02:13:47,159
accept the New Testament narratives as they are the scar

2351
02:13:47,279 --> 02:13:50,840
of power. Excellence in this regard is Albi Kai from

2352
02:13:50,880 --> 02:13:54,680
the fifteenth century, who, largely in his commentary more than

2353
02:13:54,760 --> 02:13:59,479
other scholars, have incorporated whole sections from the Old and

2354
02:13:59,560 --> 02:14:02,640
New Tests as commentary on the Quran, taking them as

2355
02:14:02,720 --> 02:14:05,479
they are, as though this is also the word of God. Well,

2356
02:14:05,520 --> 02:14:07,800
when he comes to Suto four, verse one fifty seven,

2357
02:14:08,119 --> 02:14:11,319
he does not agree with the New Testament narratives, not

2358
02:14:11,439 --> 02:14:14,159
for lack of knowledge of them, but for knowing that

2359
02:14:14,239 --> 02:14:18,960
the Quran teaches something different and by by default what

2360
02:14:19,159 --> 02:14:24,039
the Gospels say must must be incorrect. And according to him, cool,

2361
02:14:24,960 --> 02:14:25,399
we've got.

2362
02:14:25,319 --> 02:14:29,159
Speaker 2: One from Ariel Gonzalez for Shabi Eli. Why does Paul

2363
02:14:29,239 --> 02:14:32,039
quote a text about worshiping God Joel two thirty two

2364
02:14:32,319 --> 02:14:35,680
and apply it to Jesus Romans ten thirteen. Paul also

2365
02:14:35,800 --> 02:14:39,279
said he agrees with the apostles one Corinthians fifteen eleven.

2366
02:14:40,239 --> 02:14:42,279
Speaker 3: What is the one about one Corintians fifteen eleven.

2367
02:14:43,199 --> 02:14:45,239
Speaker 2: Yes, so this is the ad That was an intelligent question.

2368
02:14:45,359 --> 02:14:47,720
So why did Paul quote a text about worshiping God

2369
02:14:48,079 --> 02:14:50,960
Joel two thirty two and apply it to Jesus Romans

2370
02:14:51,000 --> 02:14:54,279
ten thirteen? Paul said he agreed with the Apostles one

2371
02:14:54,319 --> 02:14:55,600
Corinthian fifteen eleven.

2372
02:14:56,680 --> 02:15:00,960
Speaker 3: Oh, I see, Okay, So this is a question like

2373
02:15:01,079 --> 02:15:03,960
why this or why that? We can say that there

2374
02:15:04,000 --> 02:15:06,720
are many vague vagaries in the Bible and we don't

2375
02:15:06,760 --> 02:15:09,880
have answers for all of them. Why Paul made this

2376
02:15:10,039 --> 02:15:13,319
quotation like this and applied it to Jesus. I've already

2377
02:15:13,319 --> 02:15:16,600
given one explanation for this. In the way that the

2378
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:19,720
New Testament writers were quoting the Old they did not

2379
02:15:19,840 --> 02:15:23,920
necessarily mean that that Old Testament means passage means this.

2380
02:15:24,439 --> 02:15:27,479
They're saying that this reminds us of that Old Testament passages.

2381
02:15:27,520 --> 02:15:30,319
The only way of defending the New Testament writers, otherwise

2382
02:15:30,359 --> 02:15:32,359
they will be shown to be taking verses out of

2383
02:15:32,479 --> 02:15:37,800
their historical context, changing the meaning grammatically, and so on. Now,

2384
02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:41,079
if we're asking, does Paul, in the final analysis think

2385
02:15:41,159 --> 02:15:44,640
that Jesus is God? No, clearly not, because everywhere in

2386
02:15:44,720 --> 02:15:47,319
his writings he's declaring that there is only one God.

2387
02:15:47,479 --> 02:15:50,359
In fact, in a writing which is said to be

2388
02:15:50,479 --> 02:15:55,960
by one of his disciples, Timothy, this writing declares that

2389
02:15:56,119 --> 02:15:59,119
the only God is that invisible God, whom no one

2390
02:15:59,239 --> 02:16:04,319
has seen or can see, and Paul's preaching is summarized

2391
02:16:04,600 --> 02:16:07,439
in Acts of the Apostles when he preaches and says

2392
02:16:08,079 --> 02:16:12,359
that the only one God has appointed a man, Jesus Christ,

2393
02:16:12,600 --> 02:16:14,800
to be the ruler in the end time. So it's

2394
02:16:14,880 --> 02:16:16,960
very clear in his mind that there is one God

2395
02:16:17,319 --> 02:16:19,680
and Jesus is a man that God has appointed for

2396
02:16:19,760 --> 02:16:20,520
a certain task.

2397
02:16:21,199 --> 02:16:25,960
Speaker 1: Can I respond on that, they may there's many There's many,

2398
02:16:26,079 --> 02:16:28,800
we would say, there's many texts where Paul affirms both things.

2399
02:16:29,000 --> 02:16:32,559
So that's an either or. Paul affirms many times over

2400
02:16:32,639 --> 02:16:36,680
in Romans, he affirms the deity of Christ, he affirms

2401
02:16:36,719 --> 02:16:40,559
the deity of the Spirit and one Corinthians twelve. So yeah,

2402
02:16:40,639 --> 02:16:42,879
it's just a it might be that's a selective either or.

2403
02:16:46,159 --> 02:16:49,319
Speaker 2: Cool. So I've got a question here from the Orthodox defense,

2404
02:16:51,079 --> 02:16:53,719
why does he keep bringing John seven three seventeen three

2405
02:16:54,159 --> 02:16:56,840
when Orthodox exeget this in the sense that the Father

2406
02:16:57,239 --> 02:17:00,319
is the Autotheus and he's the sole calls in the

2407
02:17:00,360 --> 02:17:05,479
trinity in the sense to God, who's that for? That

2408
02:17:05,600 --> 02:17:06,120
was for doctor?

2409
02:17:06,159 --> 02:17:06,319
Speaker 3: Really?

2410
02:17:08,120 --> 02:17:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2411
02:17:08,360 --> 02:17:12,200
Speaker 3: Well, of course, naturally the Orthodox theologians will have to

2412
02:17:12,319 --> 02:17:15,360
interpret this in line with the Trinity. But when it

2413
02:17:15,479 --> 02:17:18,200
is clear that Jesus is praying to someone else. He's

2414
02:17:18,239 --> 02:17:20,399
saying that someone else sent me. He's saying, I can

2415
02:17:20,479 --> 02:17:22,959
do nothing of my own authority whatever he commands me

2416
02:17:23,079 --> 02:17:25,959
to say. That's what I'm saying to you. And when

2417
02:17:26,000 --> 02:17:28,399
he declares that, and he's praying to that one person,

2418
02:17:28,440 --> 02:17:31,920
and he's saying, you are the only true God, and Jesus,

2419
02:17:31,959 --> 02:17:35,159
your messenger is Christ, then there is a clear distinction

2420
02:17:35,319 --> 02:17:38,079
between Jesus and the one that he's praying to. And

2421
02:17:38,200 --> 02:17:40,559
in Jesus's own words, he's declared that one to be

2422
02:17:40,639 --> 02:17:44,280
the only true God. And when in John chapter eight,

2423
02:17:44,520 --> 02:17:47,079
Jesus is speaking to the Jews, he says, in verse

2424
02:17:47,159 --> 02:17:51,200
number fifty four, my father, whom you say is God.

2425
02:17:51,959 --> 02:17:55,239
So for Jews, the only one who is God is Yeahweh.

2426
02:17:55,440 --> 02:17:58,719
And from what Jesus declares, Yahweh has to be the

2427
02:17:58,840 --> 02:18:02,000
father and only the and never the father, son and

2428
02:18:02,120 --> 02:18:05,840
Holy Spirit. So the idea of father, son and Holy

2429
02:18:05,920 --> 02:18:08,040
Spirit is a later development, as we have shown.

2430
02:18:09,360 --> 02:18:12,719
Speaker 1: I would say that in Zechariah one, two and three, father,

2431
02:18:12,879 --> 02:18:16,079
son and Spirit are present, a son there being the

2432
02:18:16,239 --> 02:18:19,399
Angel Lord. Once again, the spirit is spoken of there

2433
02:18:19,479 --> 02:18:23,200
as distinct. And so again just because there is distinction

2434
02:18:23,479 --> 02:18:28,040
there you have an assumption of composition or separation. We

2435
02:18:28,120 --> 02:18:31,559
don't believe that because the Father is that Jesus is

2436
02:18:31,639 --> 02:18:34,040
praying to the Father. That's perfectly in line with Orthodox

2437
02:18:34,079 --> 02:18:36,399
Furnitarian theology. In fact, we stress that all the time.

2438
02:18:38,680 --> 02:18:44,399
Speaker 2: Okay, got a question from Chappie here for doctor lay again,

2439
02:18:45,000 --> 02:18:47,600
I'm thinking a bit of a pattern here, asking why

2440
02:18:47,719 --> 02:18:48,840
he is Sunni and not Shia.

2441
02:18:50,680 --> 02:18:53,120
Speaker 3: Okay, So this does not pertain to the subject of

2442
02:18:53,159 --> 02:18:56,200
our debate, but I can say that historically this has

2443
02:18:56,239 --> 02:18:59,360
been my experience. I grew up in a Sunni household.

2444
02:19:00,000 --> 02:19:02,280
This is what I've known, and naturally I tended to

2445
02:19:02,360 --> 02:19:05,159
see things from that perspective. I have tried to study

2446
02:19:05,200 --> 02:19:08,360
the difference between the two, and so the choice is

2447
02:19:08,399 --> 02:19:10,959
open to me. But no one is entirely free from

2448
02:19:11,040 --> 02:19:15,280
his biases. But trying to approach it with as scholarly

2449
02:19:15,360 --> 02:19:17,799
a mood as I can, it seems to me that

2450
02:19:18,639 --> 02:19:20,520
the suddeny is what I want to remain.

2451
02:19:22,440 --> 02:19:28,760
Speaker 2: Okay, one from Ophus Christos, for Doctorligan is a law

2452
02:19:28,879 --> 02:19:30,040
unable to become incarnate.

2453
02:19:32,200 --> 02:19:34,440
Speaker 3: So there's some things that you know when we speak

2454
02:19:34,440 --> 02:19:38,399
about to God. About God, we don't say naturally as believers,

2455
02:19:38,479 --> 02:19:45,639
we cringe from saying something like God is unable. But theologians,

2456
02:19:45,840 --> 02:19:48,760
both Muslims and Christians have said that there are certain

2457
02:19:48,840 --> 02:19:51,719
things that that you shouldn't attribute to God, Like if

2458
02:19:51,760 --> 02:19:54,639
something is illogical, you shouldn't attribute to God. So you

2459
02:19:54,680 --> 02:19:58,600
shouldn't say, for example, God can create a square triangle,

2460
02:19:58,639 --> 02:20:01,440
because it's either are triangle, it's not going to be both.

2461
02:20:02,600 --> 02:20:07,959
So we do not attribute logically impossible things to God.

2462
02:20:08,319 --> 02:20:10,799
That does not mean that he cannot do everything, but

2463
02:20:10,920 --> 02:20:13,040
we should say that when we say that God can

2464
02:20:13,159 --> 02:20:15,479
do whatever he wants, as Muslims would say, and the

2465
02:20:15,559 --> 02:20:18,280
Koran says by aluli mayorid, he does whatever he wants,

2466
02:20:18,559 --> 02:20:21,639
we qualify that by saying that he does everything that

2467
02:20:21,799 --> 02:20:26,280
is logically possible to do. Now, for God to become

2468
02:20:26,319 --> 02:20:28,479
a human being, that involves all of the kinds of

2469
02:20:28,559 --> 02:20:32,040
complications that we mentioned previously, which the Muslims seemed to

2470
02:20:32,120 --> 02:20:39,159
be like logical complications impossibilities, and therefore we hesitate to

2471
02:20:39,680 --> 02:20:42,760
offer that from a logical perspective. But then also from

2472
02:20:42,840 --> 02:20:45,799
the scriptural and historical perspective, we can see that the

2473
02:20:45,879 --> 02:20:48,920
scripture does not necessitate that. And when the Scripture says

2474
02:20:49,639 --> 02:20:51,760
that God says, I am the only God. You should

2475
02:20:51,760 --> 02:20:53,959
have no other God but me, and I'm a jealous God.

2476
02:20:54,319 --> 02:20:57,479
You dare not turn to somebody else without proof. Now,

2477
02:20:57,520 --> 02:20:59,920
if God came down on the earth and he says,

2478
02:21:00,200 --> 02:21:02,200
now I am the God who always spoke to you,

2479
02:21:02,319 --> 02:21:04,159
and I have now become a man, well then we

2480
02:21:04,239 --> 02:21:06,719
would say, okay, we have reason for believing that this

2481
02:21:06,920 --> 02:21:09,920
is God, at least taking him on his word, and

2482
02:21:10,040 --> 02:21:12,319
we would want some prove. But if he never said

2483
02:21:12,360 --> 02:21:14,280
that in the first place, but in fact he was

2484
02:21:14,319 --> 02:21:17,040
actually saying the contrary, like why do you call me good?

2485
02:21:17,120 --> 02:21:19,319
No one is good with God alone, and then it

2486
02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:22,520
would seem odd for us to take him as God.

2487
02:21:26,559 --> 02:21:30,959
Speaker 2: Okay. A question for Jay, is the Trinity mystical or

2488
02:21:31,000 --> 02:21:32,040
can you make sense out of it?

2489
02:21:33,840 --> 02:21:36,639
Speaker 1: Well? I would say it is in one sense mystical,

2490
02:21:36,680 --> 02:21:39,280
in another sense also reasonable and rational, so as far

2491
02:21:39,360 --> 02:21:42,959
as human logic and reason is possible. We have many

2492
02:21:43,040 --> 02:21:48,680
theologians in our church who have done extensive triadological argumentation.

2493
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:51,159
I mentioned in the past, the Cappadocians, but of course

2494
02:21:51,520 --> 02:21:54,280
Saint Maximus, and the ambiguity goes into a lot of

2495
02:21:54,319 --> 02:21:56,840
detail with these kinds of arguments in questions and doubts.

2496
02:21:56,959 --> 02:22:00,840
Saint Maximus goes into a lot of these rational types

2497
02:22:00,879 --> 02:22:05,479
of arguments. How the world itself is structured in triadic ways,

2498
02:22:06,079 --> 02:22:08,639
so we would say that there is an inkling of

2499
02:22:08,760 --> 02:22:11,440
this kind of a reality in the world. Some of

2500
02:22:11,479 --> 02:22:15,040
the Church Fathers also speak of man himself having a

2501
02:22:15,120 --> 02:22:17,879
kind of a triadic reality to him. Even Paul san

2502
02:22:17,920 --> 02:22:22,360
Gregory poalo Must uses this analogy and language. But we don't,

2503
02:22:22,440 --> 02:22:25,879
of course think that there's a one to one correspondence

2504
02:22:26,000 --> 02:22:31,879
between these created analogies and God himself. Right, there's always

2505
02:22:31,959 --> 02:22:36,639
a dissimilarity between the two, and hence why it's by analogy.

2506
02:22:37,280 --> 02:22:39,680
So in the sense of analogy and in the sense

2507
02:22:39,760 --> 02:22:44,239
of in our view, created logic, the universals, et cetera,

2508
02:22:44,360 --> 02:22:47,360
the patterns of the created order. They're based on the

2509
02:22:47,600 --> 02:22:51,799
eternal patterns that we call logie according to Saint Maximus

2510
02:22:51,840 --> 02:22:55,479
and ambiguous seven and those are uncreated, those are eternal.

2511
02:22:56,319 --> 02:22:59,120
They're the patterns for the created things, the created essences,

2512
02:22:59,159 --> 02:23:02,559
that created universal So to that degree, logic in the

2513
02:23:02,639 --> 02:23:06,920
created realm is based on God, in God's mind, God's

2514
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:10,600
thoughts et cetera. But there's also a transcendence of God

2515
02:23:10,799 --> 02:23:13,280
that we will never know and never grasp. And hence

2516
02:23:14,040 --> 02:23:18,520
the Orthodox doctrine of applethaticism, or the via negative as

2517
02:23:18,520 --> 02:23:20,920
it's called in the West, that we can never explain

2518
02:23:21,280 --> 02:23:23,920
what God is. We can only know about God what

2519
02:23:24,079 --> 02:23:25,159
He has revealed to us.

2520
02:23:29,600 --> 02:23:33,000
Speaker 2: Question from right track to Shabiri, the only creator is God?

2521
02:23:33,440 --> 02:23:36,639
Why in Kuran three nine Jesus created birds if he

2522
02:23:36,760 --> 02:23:38,959
was only a man. God does not share his ability

2523
02:23:39,000 --> 02:23:40,000
to create with anyone else.

2524
02:23:42,319 --> 02:23:45,559
Speaker 3: So when we say that God is the only creator,

2525
02:23:45,639 --> 02:23:49,680
it means that he is the ultimate creator. At that level.

2526
02:23:49,719 --> 02:23:52,760
There's nobody else who shares his space or his power

2527
02:23:53,120 --> 02:23:56,479
at that level. Everyone else has derivative power. I can

2528
02:23:56,559 --> 02:23:59,280
say I create a piece of artistic work. We're using

2529
02:23:59,319 --> 02:24:03,239
the term create, but God has given me that ability

2530
02:24:03,479 --> 02:24:06,360
to create this piece of work or to build something

2531
02:24:06,559 --> 02:24:09,440
or invent or something like this. Now, Jesus has shown

2532
02:24:09,520 --> 02:24:12,000
in the Quran to create words from clay and then

2533
02:24:12,079 --> 02:24:15,360
breathe into them and they become life words. And the

2534
02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:18,520
Quran says this is done isnila by the permission of God.

2535
02:24:18,639 --> 02:24:22,559
So God, according to this theology, can give the power

2536
02:24:23,159 --> 02:24:26,200
to a creature to do something that's to bestowed power.

2537
02:24:26,559 --> 02:24:28,760
But the power that God has to create that is

2538
02:24:28,840 --> 02:24:32,239
not derived from anywhere. It's not bestowed on God. That

2539
02:24:32,399 --> 02:24:35,319
is inherent in God. And that's the great difference between

2540
02:24:35,360 --> 02:24:36,719
God and his creatures.

2541
02:24:37,719 --> 02:24:39,440
Speaker 2: All Right, we got a bad to our last two questions.

2542
02:24:40,799 --> 02:24:45,040
Question for Jay, how do you define personhood in a

2543
02:24:45,120 --> 02:24:46,440
trinitarian context?

2544
02:24:48,079 --> 02:24:53,079
Speaker 1: So personhood is what is in a sense, stands above nature.

2545
02:24:53,159 --> 02:24:55,879
You could say we give it a sort of metaphysical

2546
02:24:55,959 --> 02:24:58,680
or ontological priority because we think that that's where we

2547
02:24:58,799 --> 02:25:01,760
begin our theology. That's who we know is a personal God.

2548
02:25:02,319 --> 02:25:06,559
So we would say that in Exodus three, when Moses

2549
02:25:06,719 --> 02:25:11,559
is seeing God face to face, God says I am

2550
02:25:11,639 --> 02:25:13,799
that I am. We see that as a statement of

2551
02:25:13,879 --> 02:25:17,719
divine personhood. So there's a covenantal personal relationship that we

2552
02:25:17,760 --> 02:25:22,840
would say distinguishes our God from say Hellenism or Greek

2553
02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:27,280
philosophy and the abstract and personalism of the Greeks. We

2554
02:25:27,360 --> 02:25:31,079
think that that's unique to Hebraic revelation. Certainly there could

2555
02:25:31,079 --> 02:25:33,719
have been pagan revelations that in a sense we're quite personal.

2556
02:25:33,799 --> 02:25:37,440
But we think the notion of the Father as a

2557
02:25:37,559 --> 02:25:43,159
distinct monarchia that's revealed there, and then also implying of

2558
02:25:43,239 --> 02:25:46,639
course the son and the spirit as well. We think

2559
02:25:46,719 --> 02:25:48,399
that that is how we know God and what we

2560
02:25:48,559 --> 02:25:51,280
know God and what we know God first, right, we

2561
02:25:51,399 --> 02:25:55,079
don't peer into trying to understand and know God's essence.

2562
02:25:55,159 --> 02:25:58,479
So hypostasis is the particular. It's what picks out the

2563
02:25:58,559 --> 02:26:03,600
particular subject, the particular person, you could say. And then

2564
02:26:04,159 --> 02:26:08,280
person for us always in hypostatizes the nature. Right, so

2565
02:26:08,520 --> 02:26:11,399
each person for us, father, son and spirit fully in

2566
02:26:11,559 --> 02:26:16,479
hypostheitize the single divine nature. But they are also in

2567
02:26:16,719 --> 02:26:20,680
a very real sense distinct hypostasis, and by extension, human

2568
02:26:20,760 --> 02:26:24,600
persons are what make me distinct. They gave that analogy earlier.

2569
02:26:25,360 --> 02:26:27,719
But we all share the same nature. So we're not

2570
02:26:27,920 --> 02:26:30,639
just instance, we're not just stamps of Adam. We're also

2571
02:26:30,920 --> 02:26:36,200
unique hypostaces, and so that in that sense, personhood goes beyond,

2572
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:40,120
or stands above, just instantiation of nature itself. Otherwise we'd

2573
02:26:40,120 --> 02:26:42,879
all just be clones about them all right.

2574
02:26:42,920 --> 02:26:48,520
Speaker 2: Last question for should be from daydream Believer. With your

2575
02:26:48,559 --> 02:26:51,879
writer analogy, you implicitly confirmed the eternal word, that is,

2576
02:26:51,959 --> 02:26:55,680
the Quran is separate and distinct from God to eternal persons.

2577
02:26:56,040 --> 02:26:58,280
I thought Allah alone is eternal.

2578
02:26:59,479 --> 02:27:02,319
Speaker 3: Well sinction here is that Muslims do not consider the

2579
02:27:02,399 --> 02:27:04,799
Quran to be a person. The Quran is a book,

2580
02:27:05,399 --> 02:27:09,079
and the words of Jesus are in a book. The

2581
02:27:09,159 --> 02:27:11,680
words of Yahweh are are said to be in the

2582
02:27:11,719 --> 02:27:14,719
Old Testament in a book, but the book is not

2583
02:27:14,959 --> 02:27:17,200
a person. The book is not God. Muslims do not

2584
02:27:17,280 --> 02:27:19,079
treat the Koran as God, and should not treat the

2585
02:27:19,159 --> 02:27:22,639
Koran as God. Muslims do treat the Qoran with respect,

2586
02:27:22,959 --> 02:27:26,600
and Muslims are also and joined to treat the other

2587
02:27:26,680 --> 02:27:29,840
scriptures with respect, but that does not mean that we

2588
02:27:29,959 --> 02:27:32,559
take the Quran or other scriptures to be God. We

2589
02:27:32,680 --> 02:27:36,639
do not. And whatnot. Well, thank you so much.

2590
02:27:36,559 --> 02:27:39,040
Speaker 2: Guys for having me. I do have to biology have

2591
02:27:39,040 --> 02:27:42,200
a family engagement. I'm able to do a quick pub

2592
02:27:42,280 --> 02:27:46,639
for a bi or a quick what quick plug if

2593
02:27:46,680 --> 02:27:47,360
that's all right before we go?

2594
02:27:47,719 --> 02:27:47,959
Speaker 1: Sure?

2595
02:27:48,959 --> 02:27:49,159
Speaker 3: Cool.

2596
02:27:49,879 --> 02:27:52,840
Speaker 2: So I'm obviously moderning from the Calipin Club. You can

2597
02:27:52,879 --> 02:27:55,920
join us at Discord dot gg for sash Calipin Club

2598
02:27:56,000 --> 02:27:58,040
the A double L I O P E A N

2599
02:27:58,159 --> 02:28:01,399
C l U B. I'm on twitch, twitch or TV,

2600
02:28:01,920 --> 02:28:05,239
slash Ky zero S or n same for Twitter. If

2601
02:28:05,239 --> 02:28:07,319
you want to catch up with me there. I'm happy

2602
02:28:07,319 --> 02:28:09,440
to go into this similar debates as well. It's also

2603
02:28:09,639 --> 02:28:11,600
I'm undersided on this, but it's up.

2604
02:28:11,520 --> 02:28:11,959
Speaker 3: To you guys.

2605
02:28:12,559 --> 02:28:14,360
Speaker 2: If you need me for any other moderation events, you

2606
02:28:14,399 --> 02:28:16,000
can also DM me there. I'm more than happy to

2607
02:28:16,040 --> 02:28:18,600
do those as well. Thank you so much to inter

2608
02:28:18,639 --> 02:28:22,200
Lucky to today, Ja, doctor J, Diet, Doc J Die

2609
02:28:22,239 --> 02:28:23,200
and doctor should be I Lee.

2610
02:28:24,840 --> 02:28:26,000
Speaker 3: You're very knowledgeable. Jay.

2611
02:28:27,239 --> 02:28:30,799
Speaker 2: I'm sure you're not too far off. Really appreciated being

2612
02:28:30,840 --> 02:28:32,159
a part of the discussion. Thank you so much.

2613
02:28:32,280 --> 02:28:33,840
Speaker 1: Thank you doctor very much. Appreciate it.

2614
02:28:34,440 --> 02:28:37,120
Speaker 3: Okay, and thank you Jay. I really respect you. And

2615
02:28:38,200 --> 02:28:40,840
let's let's continue our discussions and I'd be glad to

2616
02:28:40,920 --> 02:28:43,399
learn more from you, especially in the area of philosophy.

2617
02:28:43,600 --> 02:28:44,600
Speaker 1: Likewise, thank you very much.

2618
02:28:45,319 --> 02:28:45,600
Speaker 4: Thank you.

2619
02:28:47,120 --> 02:28:51,920
Speaker 1: All right, all right, so that was the debate. Thank

2620
02:28:51,959 --> 02:28:55,000
you everybody. I will add to uh since we're on

2621
02:28:55,079 --> 02:28:58,239
my channel and since there was the demonetization a couple

2622
02:28:58,280 --> 02:29:00,399
of days ago, which is very unfortunate. If you want

2623
02:29:00,440 --> 02:29:03,280
to support my work, you can subscribe at my website below,

2624
02:29:03,399 --> 02:29:05,440
so I have the link in the description You can

2625
02:29:05,479 --> 02:29:08,799
also follow doctor Shabir on his channel. You can follow

2626
02:29:09,280 --> 02:29:13,040
the Kelliopian Club as well. Their links are below. But

2627
02:29:13,200 --> 02:29:17,840
again so you can rather than going through YouTube, join

2628
02:29:17,959 --> 02:29:21,680
directly at my website and thank everybody God bless have

2629
02:29:21,719 --> 02:29:22,120
a good night.