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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, what are you up to? What's going on? How

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<v Speaker 2>are you feeling? Come on, let's talk. Hey, this is Cliff,

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<v Speaker 2>your host of Destiny. This week we are looking at

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<v Speaker 2>what you consider doing with less, not being so anxious

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<v Speaker 2>to be Like the Joneses, the new car, the new clothing,

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<v Speaker 2>the new watch, even the new house. Some people go

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<v Speaker 2>nuts and want to do exactly what everybody else is doing,

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<v Speaker 2>but doing it so that they have objects. It's interesting

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<v Speaker 2>because today we are looking at a way to exist

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<v Speaker 2>that I think probably was emulated or if not emulated,

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<v Speaker 2>carried over in a very similar way to the period

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<v Speaker 2>that we considered the Golden Age. And if you look

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<v Speaker 2>at the yogas we're talking about, Sechya yoga, treta yoga,

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<v Speaker 2>what they call the Garden of Eden. And what I'm

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<v Speaker 2>trying to say here is that what it looks like

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<v Speaker 2>is that those periods were concentrated more on high spiritual evolution,

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<v Speaker 2>superior health. I think it was baboo dev misery of

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<v Speaker 2>believe that people live to be many thousands of years old,

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<v Speaker 2>and then after that I think that would be Tritah

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<v Speaker 2>would be five to eight hundred years old, and of

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<v Speaker 2>course today we lived it will be roughly one hundred.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're lucky, you get to be one hundred. Most

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<v Speaker 2>people in the industrial nations living to their eighties. And

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<v Speaker 2>then that's about it. And how funny that? Why is

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<v Speaker 2>that so funny? Why is it so strange? Well, it's

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<v Speaker 2>because we don't take care of ourself rich foods, we

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<v Speaker 2>don't exercise. We fill our bias with drugs and pharmacological

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<v Speaker 2>products because we don't feel well, rather than getting out

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<v Speaker 2>in nature. So in many ways we've lost our connection

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<v Speaker 2>with nature. And you know who I'm talking about. I

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<v Speaker 2>can raise my hand on that too. This winter, we

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<v Speaker 2>should have got out more. I should have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even though it's raining, even though it's cold, it should

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<v Speaker 2>have bundled up and connected with nature. Well, we've lost that.

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<v Speaker 2>We've lost that ability, and I think it's wonderful. The

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<v Speaker 2>other picture we get of these golden ages of mankind

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<v Speaker 2>is the is the lack of interest in items. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think what we've understood is that people live very simply.

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<v Speaker 2>They live with nature. One of the things I thought

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<v Speaker 2>was quite amazing is that intention manifestation was almost automatic

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<v Speaker 2>so what you when you thought of something that you

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<v Speaker 2>wanted it and appeared. And if you're living a very

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<v Speaker 2>simplified existence, you're not, you know. And this is the

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<v Speaker 2>golden age when there was no computers or internet, that

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<v Speaker 2>you manifested food, or you manifested conveniences or not sure

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<v Speaker 2>what that is. We're not sure if people lived in

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<v Speaker 2>homes or caves or whatever. But when we look at

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<v Speaker 2>the Pupavoo, the Great Book of the of the Maya,

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<v Speaker 2>we know that there was a lot of abilities that

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<v Speaker 2>people had that we consider extreme psychic abilities, like by location.

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<v Speaker 2>You could be one place but think about being another

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<v Speaker 2>location on Earth and be there in another form. You

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<v Speaker 2>could tap into premonition, you could or psychically aware of

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<v Speaker 2>the environment you were in. You probably knew exactly when

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<v Speaker 2>you're speaking to somebody, You probably knew exactly what they

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<v Speaker 2>were thinking, and if they were friendly or not. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's you know, your demi gods, you really are demi gods.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was a period of time when it was

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<v Speaker 2>the most harmonious lifestyle and the most harmonious way to

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<v Speaker 2>live on the planet Earth. So today our program is

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<v Speaker 2>on lessening, letting go of relationships that don't serve us,

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<v Speaker 2>material needs that don't serve us, and finding what I

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<v Speaker 2>think and you'll you can hear it today. What I

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<v Speaker 2>think is the next phase in evolution. We're moving out

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<v Speaker 2>of the Dark Age Cali Yoga, which is a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>hard period. There's a lot of wars, people are not happy,

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<v Speaker 2>and material wealth is the way to go into Duwarpura,

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<v Speaker 2>which is more beneficial, more enlightened. We're beginning to use meditation.

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<v Speaker 2>We're hearing more and more guests on Earth Ancients talking

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<v Speaker 2>about energy used in temples people bathed, and energy for health,

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<v Speaker 2>for fertility, and this is the next phase. So this

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<v Speaker 2>is something to consider. So today's program is the empty

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<v Speaker 2>path finding fulfillment through the radical art of lessening. And

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<v Speaker 2>my guest is Billy when hey, Spring is just around

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<v Speaker 2>the corner where there's going to be getting better and

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<v Speaker 2>better as we continue on into the year. And this

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<v Speaker 2>means it's time to think about getting away on a vacation.

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<v Speaker 2>to this amazing city. We all land and meet in

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<v Speaker 2>most amazing sights in all of Middle East. We're talking

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<v Speaker 2>the underground city of darren Kuru, Kappadocia, Go Beckley Tepe

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<v Speaker 2>and even Carahan Teppy. This is a place that is

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<v Speaker 2>eleven day tour with our host Mohammed Imbraheim and a

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<v Speaker 2>variety of archaeologists, geologists and scientists who are providing information

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<v Speaker 2>on the latest discoveries in this part of the world.

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<v Speaker 2>The Earth Ancient's second annual Turkey Tour is not to

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<v Speaker 2>and all the details. Remember, if you want a fantastic

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<v Speaker 2>tour at half the normal fee, think about Earth Ancients Tours.

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<v Speaker 2>We've been doing them for many, many years and they

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<v Speaker 2>are a blast. Earthansents dot com Forward slash Tours Come out.

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<v Speaker 1>And join us. We've got a good one for you today.

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<v Speaker 2>We're all thinking about how to make a buck, how

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<v Speaker 2>to live with as many items as possible. Of course,

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<v Speaker 2>we're following the new president and Elon muh who's one

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<v Speaker 2>of the wealthiest people in the world, and wondering how

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<v Speaker 2>we can get there. But I don't think our guest

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<v Speaker 2>today is going to tell us about why that's a problem.

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<v Speaker 2>And let me tell you a little bit about the

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<v Speaker 2>program today. The book we're featuring is The Empty Path,

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<v Speaker 2>Finding fulfillment through the Radical Art of Lessening. We'll learn

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<v Speaker 2>a little more about that in our interview today. My

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<v Speaker 2>guest today is Billy Wynn. He is the author of

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<v Speaker 2>The Empty Path. He's a student of Buddhism mindfulness for

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<v Speaker 2>over thirty years and he received certification under a fantastic

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<v Speaker 2>guy who lives around here. I'm in northern California, Jack

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<v Speaker 2>Cornfield and Tara Branch, who are excellent, excellent teachers and

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<v Speaker 2>whyse stages. So we're going to learn a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>more about this information and why it's not necessarily great

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<v Speaker 2>to be a person who is seeking well health and

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<v Speaker 2>and rewards all the time. So hey, Billy, welcome to Destiny.

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<v Speaker 2>Great to have you on the program.

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<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having me pleasure to be with you.

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<v Speaker 2>All Right, why did you write this book? Billy? You're

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<v Speaker 2>living in the United States, where the Western culture we're

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<v Speaker 2>all about collecting information, collecting wealth, doing better than the Joneses.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we got to have the new car, the

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<v Speaker 2>new watch, the new uh sports sports item? Why why uh?

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<v Speaker 2>Why Lessening?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, thanks for asking that question. It gets really to

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<v Speaker 3>the to the heart of the book. And first, so

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<v Speaker 3>first of all, and it gives me a good opportunity

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<v Speaker 3>to say that there's nothing inherently wrong and at least,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, kind of what I'm presenting and the teachings

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<v Speaker 3>that I'm offering with you know, being wealthy or having

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<v Speaker 3>ambition or accomplishments, et cetera. It's really about how we

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<v Speaker 3>relate to those life experiences that I'm trying to get to.

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<v Speaker 3>And so Lessening is really about distilling our life experience,

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<v Speaker 3>creating some space for us to experience most directly the

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<v Speaker 3>ups and downs and the ins and outs, and the

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<v Speaker 3>accruals and the losses that life brings to us, and

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<v Speaker 3>just kind of relaxing our grip, if you will, from

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<v Speaker 3>the outcome of those different life events. And actually what

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<v Speaker 3>I have found and what I talk about to some

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<v Speaker 3>degree in the book, there's a pretty significant autobiographical component

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<v Speaker 3>is that that mindset can actually help us succeed in

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of the you know, endeavors and goals that

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<v Speaker 3>we have in our life, including potentially financial success. But

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<v Speaker 3>it's really a shift in mindset about how we're approaching

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<v Speaker 3>these things that can give us a little bit more ease, equanimity, piece, creativity, energy,

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<v Speaker 3>et cetera. That can you know, perhaps paradoxically, actually help

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<v Speaker 3>us accomplish some of those things that we are otherwise pursuing.

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<v Speaker 2>Did you study other cultures and determine that they either

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<v Speaker 2>were living longer, had more peace and tranquility and more

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<v Speaker 2>happiness versus the Western lifestyle.

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<v Speaker 3>There's some evidence of that, you know, I mean, I

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<v Speaker 3>think that there well, I'd say the evidence around that

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<v Speaker 3>is kind of mixed, and I think that you know,

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<v Speaker 3>there are blue zones and there's been some really I

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<v Speaker 3>don't talk about that my book, but there are some

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<v Speaker 3>research around different types of cultures that can promote longevity,

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<v Speaker 3>and to the degree that evidence is valid, there is

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<v Speaker 3>some someponent components of it that a slower lifestyle and

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<v Speaker 3>more you know, ambulatory lifestyle, for example, can contribute to longevity,

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<v Speaker 3>but really it's about how we experience life, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>are we happier, are we more at ease? And there

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<v Speaker 3>is some some clinical validation of the benefits of meditation,

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<v Speaker 3>for example, in reducing cortisol, stress hormones, and improving cognition

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<v Speaker 3>and those kinds of measurable things. But more what I'm

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<v Speaker 3>getting after is what do our days feel like? You know,

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<v Speaker 3>are they Are they joyful entities or are they stressful

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<v Speaker 3>and angry? We could all relate to some of a

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<v Speaker 3>little of all of that, but you know, we tend

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<v Speaker 3>to to want a little bit more of the former.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's what the book tries to help us do.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's drill down into this a little bit. If we're lessening,

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<v Speaker 2>we're reducing the stress because we don't have to worry

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<v Speaker 2>about so many different items or I don't know, bank

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<v Speaker 2>accounts or whatever. Is is your thinking that having less

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<v Speaker 2>material wealth not necessarily I'm not going to use the

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<v Speaker 2>word wealth because that's not what I mean. Material items,

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<v Speaker 2>things that we have to worry about. Is that lessening

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<v Speaker 2>the fatigue, the the stress, the problems associated with overwhelm

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<v Speaker 2>is that what the go is.

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<v Speaker 3>Maybe, And so the result of this path, so to speak,

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<v Speaker 3>if one takes up the book, it tries to work

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<v Speaker 3>with it a little bit, you know, may not lead

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<v Speaker 3>to having less things. It may not lead to having

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<v Speaker 3>less friends. It might, and for many people I think

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<v Speaker 3>that it does, but that's not necessarily the prescription. What

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<v Speaker 3>we're lessening is our attachment to and anxiety about, and

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<v Speaker 3>preoccupation with the outcome of our endeavors, of our relationships,

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<v Speaker 3>of our business pursuits, you know, and so forth. And

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<v Speaker 3>the tool for getting to that, the reason it's called

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<v Speaker 3>the empty path, is to really closely examine each of

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<v Speaker 3>these different facets of our life for what they really are.

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<v Speaker 3>And we begin to see that what we see them as,

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<v Speaker 3>which is sort of separate, something to be pursued, something

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<v Speaker 3>that we need in order to make us happy, is

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<v Speaker 3>not actually what they are. And that, you know, when

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<v Speaker 3>we have a settled mind state, we can see things

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<v Speaker 3>a little more clearly as not not actually so distinct

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<v Speaker 3>from us, and we can get into all that if

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<v Speaker 3>you'd like. But and that that, you know, again, doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>mean that we don't have the meal, or get the job,

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<v Speaker 3>or buy the car, but the process and the experience

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<v Speaker 3>of doing that can be less and less stressful and

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<v Speaker 3>a little a little easier and happier. That's the lessening.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not so much, you know, less things, although again

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<v Speaker 3>it may result in that. It's more about lessening our

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<v Speaker 3>you know, our our amped up pursuit of all these

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<v Speaker 3>things and the belief that getting them is what's going

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<v Speaker 3>to make us happy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if we have less to worry about, obviously

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<v Speaker 2>we're not going to have the same stress and fatigue

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<v Speaker 2>and chronic problems and cruting health problems that Western culture

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<v Speaker 2>is dealing with right now. I mean, they annually do

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<v Speaker 2>serve of the health of Americans, and we are at

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<v Speaker 2>the bottom of the of the ring in terms of mental, physical,

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<v Speaker 2>and very likely spiritual health. So I can understand what

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<v Speaker 2>you're trying to get across. I would love to hear

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<v Speaker 2>if you can an example or a case study where

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<v Speaker 2>you say John Doe was in the corporate world and

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<v Speaker 2>he did this and that and this and that, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, took a path similar to what you're suggesting,

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<v Speaker 2>and this was the result. Because I think our listeners

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<v Speaker 2>are curious and I see it from a spiritual point

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<v Speaker 2>of view, what you're trying to say is that less

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<v Speaker 2>is more and also less allows for other areas to open.

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<v Speaker 2>But if we could, if you could give it, for instance,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it would really help.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure I can. I can give it for instance from

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<v Speaker 3>my own life that is in the book. That's what

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<v Speaker 3>I know best, So I could speak for myself. So

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<v Speaker 3>and there's a couple of different, you know, examples of this,

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<v Speaker 3>but I think maybe the maybe the best one that

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<v Speaker 3>that it really speaks to what you're asking for is

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<v Speaker 3>in my my primary career has been in health policy consulting.

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<v Speaker 3>And when I first started, I had a job on

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<v Speaker 3>Capitol Hill and I went into consulting and lobbying. This

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<v Speaker 3>was over fifteen years ago, and uh, you know, I

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<v Speaker 3>was I was the embodiment of American you know, Western

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<v Speaker 3>hustle and bustle and ambition and uh greed you know,

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<v Speaker 3>to some degree, and so and it it it bore fruit.

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<v Speaker 3>You know. I was doing well. We moved to Denver.

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<v Speaker 3>I was flying back and forth. I was basically commuting

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<v Speaker 3>to Washington, d C. And I was just perpetually stressful.

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<v Speaker 3>I was drinking a lot. I was missing out on

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<v Speaker 3>the early childhood experiences of my kids and so, and

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<v Speaker 3>partly due to the you know, I'm grateful because the really,

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<v Speaker 3>to some degree, the necessity of not living in Washington

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<v Speaker 3>and wanting to stay in Denver, Colorado. I started to

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<v Speaker 3>change the way that I approached my work so that

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<v Speaker 3>it wasn't so contingent on me personally, it wasn't so

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<v Speaker 3>focused on lobbying. I hired people and empowered them to

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<v Speaker 3>take on some of their responsibility, knowing that I would

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<v Speaker 3>be sacrificing some income, some profit in the near term,

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<v Speaker 3>but in the long term, now fifteen years later, it

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<v Speaker 3>has allowed me to write a book and become a

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<v Speaker 3>certified meditation teacher. And we lived in France a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of years ago, my family and I for a year.

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<v Speaker 3>So all these beautiful life experiences that you know, the

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<v Speaker 3>one point zero version of me in my professional track

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<v Speaker 3>could never have been able to do. And as I

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<v Speaker 3>say in the book, my income has has been constant throughout.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think there is some you know, that's not

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<v Speaker 3>a guarantee, you know that anybody who does this kind

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<v Speaker 3>of practice is going to have that same result, But

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<v Speaker 3>I have shown that it can work, and I do

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<v Speaker 3>think some of it has to do with when I'm

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<v Speaker 3>working with clients, when I'm managing my team, I am

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<v Speaker 3>I'm not gonna say I never get frustrated. Like I say,

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<v Speaker 3>I never you know, make a mistake, of course, but

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<v Speaker 3>I am a bit easier. I'm more patient, I'm more creative,

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<v Speaker 3>I think, in coming up with solutions in the professional context,

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<v Speaker 3>because I'm not you know, clinging so tightly to that

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<v Speaker 3>next dollar and that next client, that next next outcome,

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<v Speaker 3>or you know, correcting that employee's mistake and that sort

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<v Speaker 3>of thing. So it is that that that shift in

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<v Speaker 3>mindset which comes out of just you know, whether literally

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<v Speaker 3>or metaphorically, just kind of taking a step back, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>from from what's happening in this case, in our professional career.

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<v Speaker 3>And uh, you know, it's it has it has worked

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<v Speaker 3>for me. Again, there's all kinds of factors right for that,

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<v Speaker 3>but but one clear threat for me has been this

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<v Speaker 3>uh lessening of my preoccupation with the you know, the

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<v Speaker 3>immediate reward of the profession and thinking more longer term,

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<v Speaker 3>thinking about myself as a whole person, thinking about my

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<v Speaker 3>family and you know, the rest of my life.

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<v Speaker 2>I like that, and thank you for sharing that. I

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<v Speaker 2>really appreciate that. Those who are listening, How would you

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<v Speaker 2>suggest a start? What is what are the key tools

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<v Speaker 2>that we integrate so that we began lessening.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure, So there's two big tracks that are in the book,

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<v Speaker 3>and so I'll briefly describe it. The first one is

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<v Speaker 3>mindfulness practices, and so that can mean meditation. That's not

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<v Speaker 3>everybody's cup of tea. But I do offer a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of different meditation techniques in the book. There are some

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<v Speaker 3>other techniques that can promote mindfulness in our daily life

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<v Speaker 3>that don't necessarily require kind of formal seated meditation, and

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<v Speaker 3>so I explore those as well. But the crux of

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<v Speaker 3>it is to attune more to what's happening in the

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<v Speaker 3>reality of our lives in the present moment, and trying

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<v Speaker 3>to resist the impulse we have to rush into judging

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<v Speaker 3>that experience as positive or negative, something we want more of,

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<v Speaker 3>something less of, right that the person we really want

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<v Speaker 3>to call the person we want to avoid that very

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<v Speaker 3>natural and very persistent instinct. We have to judge things

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<v Speaker 3>with mindfulness. We're trying to ease that throttle and let

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<v Speaker 3>our experience present itself to us so that we can

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<v Speaker 3>see it clearly before we rush decide whether we like

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<v Speaker 3>it or not, and you know, want to dispose of

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<v Speaker 3>it or not. So that practice of experiencing our day

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<v Speaker 3>to day moments that way more mindfully is a major

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<v Speaker 3>major component of the lessening path. It creates that bit

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<v Speaker 3>of space between us and what's coming up for us,

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<v Speaker 3>a little bit of space between us and our career pursuits,

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<v Speaker 3>our relationships or you know, hobbies, what have you. That

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<v Speaker 3>starts to ease that attachment that we very naturally have

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<v Speaker 3>to those things and the outcomes that we expect from

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<v Speaker 3>those things. But that's one, and we can definitely go

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<v Speaker 3>into that in more detail. But one of them is

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<v Speaker 3>mindfulness practices. The other is inquiring into this thing called emptiness. Right,

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<v Speaker 3>the book is called The Empty Path, and so part

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<v Speaker 3>of my motivation for writing it was I am a Buddhist.

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<v Speaker 3>I have studied a lot about Buddhism, and in lots

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<v Speaker 3>and lots of Buddhist books that I've read, this core teaching.

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<v Speaker 3>Some might argue the core teaching of Buddhism is really

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<v Speaker 3>glossed over or ignored all together. And I think part

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<v Speaker 3>of it is a translation issue. The term emptiness doesn't

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<v Speaker 3>sound so great, you know, A lot of people think

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<v Speaker 3>of emptiness like you know, nihilism or meaninglessness or I

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<v Speaker 3>have to give up all my things or all that

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<v Speaker 3>kind of stuff. And part of that, again is a

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<v Speaker 3>translation issue. But really what it means is that what

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<v Speaker 3>I spoke to a little bit earlier, which is the

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<v Speaker 3>appearance of things right here, you know, as separate from us,

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<v Speaker 3>as kind of having their own kind of identity that

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<v Speaker 3>is coherent through time, a certain permanence to them. You know.

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<v Speaker 3>In this case, a book is actually just sort of

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<v Speaker 3>the surface layer of what it actually is. And if

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<v Speaker 3>we really kind of settle ourselves and contemplate things more

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<v Speaker 3>closely and carefully, we can see that the different things

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<v Speaker 3>that make them what they are are are innumerable. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's there's paper, there's production process, there's ink, there's

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<v Speaker 3>the thoughts, there's the words, there's the editor, there's the agent.

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<v Speaker 3>There's all these different factors that go into making this

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<v Speaker 3>what it is, But not any single one of those

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<v Speaker 3>is what makes it a book. So that's one element

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<v Speaker 3>of emptiness. Is in Buddhism, we call it no self,

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<v Speaker 3>but that it gets a little wonky for people pretty fast.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think it's better to think of the fact

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<v Speaker 3>that it's clear to everyone that what's sitting here is

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<v Speaker 3>the result of you know, dozens and dozens, if not thousands,

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<v Speaker 3>of different factors and steps and components, and that not

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<v Speaker 3>one of them can you point to and say, well,

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<v Speaker 3>that's the bookness, right, that's the bookness. So actually, really

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<v Speaker 3>it's kind of an idea that we've put together. So

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<v Speaker 3>that's one insight into the nature of things that, again,

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<v Speaker 3>if we cultivate it can help us release our sort

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<v Speaker 3>of reflex attachment to what we think this is and

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<v Speaker 3>see it from a bit of a fresher, more creative way.

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<v Speaker 3>We're going to take a.

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<v Speaker 2>Short commercial break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves,

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<v Speaker 2>and we will return shortly with my guest today, Billy

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<v Speaker 2>when discussing his new book, The Empty Path. Will be

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<v Speaker 2>right back. My guest today is Billy Wynn, who's written

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<v Speaker 2>a new book called The Empty Path, Finding Fulfillment through

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<v Speaker 2>the Radical Art of Lessening. I want to get into

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<v Speaker 2>emptiness here in a second, because you spend a good

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<v Speaker 2>deal of time discussing that. Let's get back to my mindfulness.

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<v Speaker 2>We have had people talk about mindfulness on our program

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<v Speaker 2>here in the context that you're presenting you're asking, and

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<v Speaker 2>please correct me if I if I go over the

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<v Speaker 2>cliff on this a little bit. But you're you're saying

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<v Speaker 2>that being aware, being mindful, being present is a key

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<v Speaker 2>to understanding your I was going to say your empty

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<v Speaker 2>path or you're lessening. So this is really a key.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you expand on.

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<v Speaker 3>That a little bit? Sure? Sure, so I'd say that

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<v Speaker 3>the you know, tik not Hans says, we have an

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<v Speaker 3>appointment with our life. It's the present moment. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>don't miss your appointment with life. And so one one

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<v Speaker 3>thing that actually becomes a parent and with with mindfuls

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<v Speaker 3>practice is just how unmindful we are the vast majority

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<v Speaker 3>of the time. And that's that's okay, that's the human

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<v Speaker 3>experience we're we are like I use the analogy like

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<v Speaker 3>a pinball and a pinball machine just bounce seeing. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>we want the pleasant chimes and the dings and the

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<v Speaker 3>rewards and the bells and we don't want to slip

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<v Speaker 3>down into the bottom and have to start the play

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<v Speaker 3>over again or you know, so uh, we we most

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<v Speaker 3>often live our lives pursuing things we think will make

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<v Speaker 3>us happy, and you know, avoiding things that we think

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<v Speaker 3>will will make us said, or you know, unhappy, and uh,

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<v Speaker 3>it's it's it's just a constant hustle. And what the

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<v Speaker 3>heart of what the book's book says is that as

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<v Speaker 3>so long as we think it's these things outside of us,

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<v Speaker 3>external to us, these factors around us, that in fact

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<v Speaker 3>we have very little power to control. If we think

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<v Speaker 3>those are the things that are going to make us happy,

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<v Speaker 3>then that's a self fulfilling prophecy that we're going to

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<v Speaker 3>be unsatisfied, because actually the you know, the fulfillment is inherent,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, with each of us and all in all things.

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<v Speaker 3>As I try to explain in the book, so mindfulness

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<v Speaker 3>practice helps us slow down that reactive state of pursuing

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<v Speaker 3>the happy things and avoiding the unhappy things and the

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<v Speaker 3>pleasant things and the unpleasant things, which is takes a

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<v Speaker 3>lot a good bit of practice because it's pretty much,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, how we're trained to behave by our society

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<v Speaker 3>from day one. So setting aside some time for dedicated

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<v Speaker 3>mindfulness practice and meditation is a very helpful technique. But

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<v Speaker 3>I do offer some ways to do it kind of

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<v Speaker 3>in real time, you know, in a conversation or when

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<v Speaker 3>we're working or what have. You can help put a

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<v Speaker 3>little break into that reactive cycle of I like this,

416
00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:33.359
<v Speaker 3>I don't like this, and help us see things in

417
00:27:33.559 --> 00:27:38.599
<v Speaker 3>a fresher, newer way, which is really how they are.

418
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.559
<v Speaker 3>Things are always presenting themselves a new They're always changing,

419
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, our relationships, our tasked, our mind is always

420
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.039
<v Speaker 3>changing and evolving. So you know, we think it's the

421
00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:49.519
<v Speaker 3>same that it was a year ago, but it's really

422
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:52.640
<v Speaker 3>not so. So this mindfulness practice is a way to

423
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.119
<v Speaker 3>pause and see things fresh, which is closer to how

424
00:27:56.119 --> 00:27:59.599
<v Speaker 3>they actually are. Then all the preconceived ideas and judgments

425
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:02.400
<v Speaker 3>and you know, expectations that we tend to apply to

426
00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:06.119
<v Speaker 3>things again as we're you know, snapping these judgments of

427
00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:11.160
<v Speaker 3>pleasant or unpositive and positive or negative. So and we

428
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:13.200
<v Speaker 3>could you know, like I start with mindfulness of the breath,

429
00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:16.079
<v Speaker 3>which is a very common and pervasive technique. And the

430
00:28:16.119 --> 00:28:18.720
<v Speaker 3>beautiful thing about that is that you know, you can

431
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:22.519
<v Speaker 3>cultivate it and dedicated meditation, but it's always available stop light,

432
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:24.759
<v Speaker 3>you know, on a phone call, in a podcast, you know,

433
00:28:25.039 --> 00:28:27.319
<v Speaker 3>we can we can kind of find a quick recentering

434
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:29.839
<v Speaker 3>tool with our breath. So that's one reason it's so popular.

435
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, excellent, Thank you for that, you know, you bring

436
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 2>up in your book and this is curious for me,

437
00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and I'd love to hear the explanation for it, lessening

438
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.400
<v Speaker 2>our relationships. And when you brought that up, I was like,

439
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:49.599
<v Speaker 2>you got something here, because I think that not only

440
00:28:49.640 --> 00:28:55.119
<v Speaker 2>do we spend too much energy on certain relationships that

441
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:59.880
<v Speaker 2>aren't benefiting this, but also even with our loved ones,

442
00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:02.960
<v Speaker 2>we can go out of our way to be perhaps

443
00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:06.920
<v Speaker 2>diverted from the true nature of that connection. So talk

444
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:09.039
<v Speaker 2>a little bit about that. That's a great it's a

445
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:10.000
<v Speaker 2>great path.

446
00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:12.680
<v Speaker 3>Thank you, Thank you. Yeah. And I think, I mean,

447
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:15.799
<v Speaker 3>our relationships are really especially with the people that we love,

448
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:18.480
<v Speaker 3>our own family and so forth, is where the rubber

449
00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:20.839
<v Speaker 3>really meets the road. And I think we can all

450
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:23.599
<v Speaker 3>relate to. You know, this is the person that actually

451
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:25.920
<v Speaker 3>cared the most about in the world. Why am I

452
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.000
<v Speaker 3>frustrated with them? Why am I raising my voice at them?

453
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:31.000
<v Speaker 3>Like what is going on here? And it's it's because

454
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:33.240
<v Speaker 3>we're so closely attached, you know. And so what I

455
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:34.880
<v Speaker 3>try to talk about in the book, and I use

456
00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:37.680
<v Speaker 3>one analogy I really like to use. I'm sealing from

457
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.160
<v Speaker 3>the minister who married my wife, and I he talked

458
00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:43.839
<v Speaker 3>about this is not just about marriage, but this was

459
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:45.640
<v Speaker 3>of course in the context of marriage. The marriage not

460
00:29:46.119 --> 00:29:49.559
<v Speaker 3>is kind of the typical metaphor for marriage. And he

461
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:51.200
<v Speaker 3>explained to you, if you think about it, that's a

462
00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:55.319
<v Speaker 3>very stagnant, constricting, you know, way to think about our

463
00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:58.200
<v Speaker 3>relationship and you can't move that. People can't ship, they

464
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:00.559
<v Speaker 3>can't move, they can't grow. And he said, maybe it's

465
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:02.720
<v Speaker 3>better to think of a marriage like this, and so

466
00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:05.200
<v Speaker 3>that way there's freedom to you know, kind of flow

467
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:09.119
<v Speaker 3>and grow and change as we all do over time,

468
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:13.039
<v Speaker 3>and to allow the other person to continue to evolve

469
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.920
<v Speaker 3>and to be who they are rather than say no, no,

470
00:30:16.200 --> 00:30:18.200
<v Speaker 3>you're going to be this way. I need you to

471
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.160
<v Speaker 3>be this way. That's that's what love is, right, So

472
00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:27.079
<v Speaker 3>that starts to you know, explain this different way of

473
00:30:27.119 --> 00:30:29.559
<v Speaker 3>thinking about relationships. And I just spend quite a bit

474
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:32.279
<v Speaker 3>of time on it. You and I talk about codependency,

475
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:34.960
<v Speaker 3>and I don't mean that in a really clinically, you know,

476
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:37.880
<v Speaker 3>really negative way. I actually try to present it as

477
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:40.720
<v Speaker 3>the way that most of our relationships are in the

478
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:44.880
<v Speaker 3>sense that we think that our happiness and our emotional

479
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:47.880
<v Speaker 3>state is to some degree dependent on how another person.

480
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:51.799
<v Speaker 3>Perhaps our partner is treating us right and vice versa. Oh,

481
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:54.559
<v Speaker 3>it's my responsibility to help make my partner happy, and

482
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:56.920
<v Speaker 3>you know they need this from me, so I need

483
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.039
<v Speaker 3>to do that, and that to me is a is

484
00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:03.279
<v Speaker 3>a mild form of codependence. Whereas if we recognize that

485
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:06.200
<v Speaker 3>actually we are responsible for our own mind state, they

486
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:08.880
<v Speaker 3>are responsible for their own mind state, then then we're

487
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:12.119
<v Speaker 3>talking about freedom in a relationship where we're honoring each

488
00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:14.119
<v Speaker 3>other to be the people that we actually are and

489
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:17.319
<v Speaker 3>want to be, which is closer to love, I suggest

490
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:20.000
<v Speaker 3>than you know, our our traditional mindset about it.

491
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.799
<v Speaker 2>I like that for personal relationship, especially with your spouse

492
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.640
<v Speaker 2>or your your girlfriend or boyfriend or your partner, how

493
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:34.119
<v Speaker 2>do we lessen the business relationships and the friends that

494
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.799
<v Speaker 2>may not service very well without hurting the other person?

495
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:43.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, so I think that the key is to

496
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:50.440
<v Speaker 3>uh recognize right that they're again, you know, their their

497
00:31:50.480 --> 00:31:53.839
<v Speaker 3>their their success, their well being, their emotional state is

498
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.799
<v Speaker 3>not our responsibility. Now there's a little bit of a

499
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:00.319
<v Speaker 3>parenthesis here of like, you know, it's our employee or

500
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:02.880
<v Speaker 3>it's our child, or you know, there are some cases

501
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:05.839
<v Speaker 3>where we actually do have some you know, responsibility that

502
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:09.559
<v Speaker 3>we accept for that person for their professional growth or

503
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:12.160
<v Speaker 3>or what have you. But in terms of the you know,

504
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.720
<v Speaker 3>kind of emotional components, I think that this is where

505
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:19.359
<v Speaker 3>boundaries are very important, you know. I mean we uh

506
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:24.359
<v Speaker 3>in a in a professional relationship, it's beneficial to be cordial,

507
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:27.160
<v Speaker 3>to be patient, to be kind to you know, to

508
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:29.799
<v Speaker 3>have some concern for that other person's well being and

509
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:35.400
<v Speaker 3>so forth, but also to say, you know, at a

510
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:39.279
<v Speaker 3>certain point, how they feel about their job, how they

511
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:43.599
<v Speaker 3>feel about their life, how you know, how ambitious they

512
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:47.440
<v Speaker 3>are or not ambitious they are. You know, is their responsibility,

513
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:50.839
<v Speaker 3>right and so and I think that that the result

514
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:54.039
<v Speaker 3>of that is more ease and patience in the relationship. Right.

515
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:57.799
<v Speaker 3>The expectation that that person be something that we want

516
00:32:57.799 --> 00:32:59.960
<v Speaker 3>them to be is what can create a lot of

517
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:03.839
<v Speaker 3>that tension and animosity, I think in our relationships, professional

518
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:10.240
<v Speaker 3>or otherwise. So again, it's the lessening our relationships has

519
00:33:10.279 --> 00:33:13.920
<v Speaker 3>a lot to do with drawing emotional boundaries between ourselves

520
00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:15.839
<v Speaker 3>and others. And those boundaries look a little bit different

521
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:17.799
<v Speaker 3>based on what the context is. But at the end

522
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:21.839
<v Speaker 3>of the day, it's really allowing someone to be who

523
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:25.680
<v Speaker 3>they are and to accept responsibility for how they are

524
00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.680
<v Speaker 3>in that relationship, you know, and vice versa with us

525
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:30.160
<v Speaker 3>taking responsibility for ourselves.

526
00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:33.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're talking about something that's always been a challenge

527
00:33:33.079 --> 00:33:34.880
<v Speaker 2>for me when I was in the corporate world, which

528
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:38.480
<v Speaker 2>is you meet somebody who's on your team who just

529
00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:41.960
<v Speaker 2>came on board, and you look at them and automatically

530
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:47.119
<v Speaker 2>you give them a title in terms of that's the

531
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:50.440
<v Speaker 2>brown haired, blue eyed dude with the funky clothes, and

532
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:54.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to treat him with a certain respect and

533
00:33:54.079 --> 00:33:56.559
<v Speaker 2>of oh, you know, but I also don't have a

534
00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:58.799
<v Speaker 2>lot of time, and I can't. You know, we we

535
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:03.920
<v Speaker 2>throw so much these new relationships that I think that

536
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:07.640
<v Speaker 2>we can it can be a problem.

537
00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:12.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And I offer some techniques for that.

538
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.400
<v Speaker 3>First of all, of course, we all could relate to that,

539
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:17.159
<v Speaker 3>right and and and I mean, to some degree or another,

540
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:21.199
<v Speaker 3>we all have expectations of other people. And and you know,

541
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:23.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's interesting because again it's sort of a

542
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:27.119
<v Speaker 3>self fulfilling prophecy. I mean, nobody can magically fit into

543
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.239
<v Speaker 3>this expectation we've kind of imagined for them, and it's

544
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.119
<v Speaker 3>never the actual reality of that person. It's always much

545
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:39.719
<v Speaker 3>more complicated and nuance but uh uh oh, in the

546
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:42.360
<v Speaker 3>in the in the now, I just kind of forgot

547
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:43.480
<v Speaker 3>my tramp on. I'm sorry.

548
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.800
<v Speaker 2>We're talking about the h We're talking about the office

549
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.400
<v Speaker 2>people that we interact with.

550
00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:54.880
<v Speaker 3>And oh, yes, thank you. Sorry sorry. Some techniques for

551
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:58.519
<v Speaker 3>uh dealing with that exact type of situation. So one

552
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:01.960
<v Speaker 3>is too pretend that you've never met the person before,

553
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:04.519
<v Speaker 3>you know so, and this is actually helpful in our

554
00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:08.480
<v Speaker 3>in our close intimate relationships as well, even though it's harder,

555
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:10.599
<v Speaker 3>but to you know, it's like, Okay, I have a

556
00:35:10.599 --> 00:35:14.679
<v Speaker 3>meeting with with Bob, you know tomorrow. I'm going to

557
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:16.440
<v Speaker 3>go into that call and I and I you know,

558
00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:18.320
<v Speaker 3>I have been working with Bob for a year. I

559
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:21.159
<v Speaker 3>think Bob is you know, lazy, or I think Bob

560
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.599
<v Speaker 3>is or I think Bob is a high performer, or

561
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:27.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, I think Bob is you know uh uh

562
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.519
<v Speaker 3>this is you know, his calls to whatever. But if

563
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:33.280
<v Speaker 3>I go into that next conversation the next day and

564
00:35:33.320 --> 00:35:36.920
<v Speaker 3>do my messages set all of that a crude, you know,

565
00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:40.960
<v Speaker 3>judgment aside, I'm probably going to have a more constructive

566
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:43.880
<v Speaker 3>and productive conversation with Bob the next day, right because

567
00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:47.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm not I'm not bringing in the baggage of the relationship. Now,

568
00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:49.320
<v Speaker 3>what Bob does is up to Bob, right, But for me,

569
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.079
<v Speaker 3>I can adopt this mindset of a like, we're going

570
00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:54.199
<v Speaker 3>to start on a clean slate, and you know, we'll

571
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:55.760
<v Speaker 3>have an agenda or whatever it is we've got to

572
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.400
<v Speaker 3>talk about. But in terms of my expectation of how

573
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.480
<v Speaker 3>Bob is going to act, I can set that aside.

574
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.440
<v Speaker 3>So that that's one There's a couple of different techniques

575
00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:06.800
<v Speaker 3>I put in the book, but that's one for trying

576
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.719
<v Speaker 3>to kind of refresh these relationships that can get pretty

577
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.840
<v Speaker 3>entrenched pretty fast.

578
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:13.880
<v Speaker 2>We should also mention that throughout the book you have

579
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:18.440
<v Speaker 2>spread what you call reflections, which I think are a

580
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:22.159
<v Speaker 2>great tool to kind of reinforce the material. Talk a

581
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:27.920
<v Speaker 2>little bit about how the reflections work on the reinforcement

582
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:28.559
<v Speaker 2>of the material.

583
00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:32.800
<v Speaker 3>Sure, I appreciate that, and I some of my friends

584
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:35.119
<v Speaker 3>and family have gotten advanced copies of the book and

585
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:37.599
<v Speaker 3>you have, and I've gotten started to get some some feedback.

586
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:39.840
<v Speaker 3>And one thing that's been pretty consistent is like, this

587
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:41.599
<v Speaker 3>is not the kind of book you pick up and bust.

588
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:42.840
<v Speaker 3>It's not like a Grisham.

589
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Actually have I think your reflections even have some journaling

590
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:51.079
<v Speaker 2>in them, which is, you know, really sit down and

591
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:52.760
<v Speaker 2>contemplate what you're dealing with.

592
00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:56.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so that I do encourage people, you know, usually

593
00:36:56.599 --> 00:37:00.400
<v Speaker 3>about twice per chapter to just you know, take a pause.

594
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:02.719
<v Speaker 3>There's maybe a half page of guidance on what you

595
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:05.280
<v Speaker 3>might do, but really it's a place to say, this

596
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:08.239
<v Speaker 3>is a good place to stop and just take a moment,

597
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.440
<v Speaker 3>whether it's the way that I recommend or your own

598
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.400
<v Speaker 3>way to just just be with and process what you

599
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:17.559
<v Speaker 3>just read. And sometimes there's a new meditation technique, or

600
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:19.719
<v Speaker 3>sometimes there's a new you know, a little morsel of

601
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:23.320
<v Speaker 3>Buddhist wisdom, or maybe there's a fairly heavy, you know,

602
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:25.960
<v Speaker 3>experience I've shared for my life that maybe it connects

603
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.280
<v Speaker 3>with something you know, in that person's life that we

604
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:31.480
<v Speaker 3>really need to honor. Again, it's part of the path

605
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:34.039
<v Speaker 3>of lessening. It's to you know, let that settle a

606
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:35.800
<v Speaker 3>bit before we just rush on to say, well, what's

607
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.960
<v Speaker 3>the next thing. You know, I told myself I was

608
00:37:37.960 --> 00:37:40.559
<v Speaker 3>going to, you know, finish this chapter tonight. Well you

609
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:42.519
<v Speaker 3>don't have to finish the chapter tonight. You can you

610
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:44.920
<v Speaker 3>can give it the space that it needs to really

611
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:46.519
<v Speaker 3>kind of sink in and mean something for you.

612
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I like that. Excellent you have and I want

613
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:53.960
<v Speaker 2>you to describe this a little bit. You talk about

614
00:37:54.000 --> 00:38:02.679
<v Speaker 2>the importance of forgiving but also being forgiven, and I

615
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:08.039
<v Speaker 2>have had an issue with that in situations where I

616
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:13.400
<v Speaker 2>had a family member who I just got extremely angry

617
00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.199
<v Speaker 2>at and I didn't want to talk to them, and

618
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.679
<v Speaker 2>I actually avoided them for almost a couple of years

619
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:26.559
<v Speaker 2>and it didn't serve me, and so I forgave them

620
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:29.880
<v Speaker 2>personally and face Bason, and I forgave myself for being

621
00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:33.159
<v Speaker 2>that way. But talk about the importance and the energy

622
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:39.679
<v Speaker 2>around forgiving and being forgiven actually acknowledging.

623
00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:42.880
<v Speaker 3>That, Yeah, thank you very much so and for me.

624
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:45.400
<v Speaker 3>And there's a reason that comes kind of later in

625
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:47.800
<v Speaker 3>the book, because for being forgiveness is really at the

626
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:51.519
<v Speaker 3>heart of every section of our emotional lives, you know,

627
00:38:51.559 --> 00:38:55.480
<v Speaker 3>which really is our life. So I give it a

628
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:58.719
<v Speaker 3>full chapter's worth of consideration. And part of that stems

629
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:03.239
<v Speaker 3>from for me a bit, you know, of all the

630
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:07.880
<v Speaker 3>things that cause us suffering, I think that regret and uh,

631
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:11.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, a feeling of unrepaired harm in our lives,

632
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:13.480
<v Speaker 3>whether something we've caused or something someone calls to us

633
00:39:14.599 --> 00:39:17.199
<v Speaker 3>is is likely our biggest source of suffering. Maybe that

634
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:19.480
<v Speaker 3>I think that's been the case for me. And so

635
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:22.199
<v Speaker 3>what I what I talk about, you know, is that

636
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:28.519
<v Speaker 3>for one thing, forgiveness is is kind of a natural

637
00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:34.239
<v Speaker 3>way of being. It involves a recognition of what happened,

638
00:39:35.079 --> 00:39:37.440
<v Speaker 3>It involves an investigation of you know, kind of the

639
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:41.079
<v Speaker 3>details of the relationship and all those things really matter.

640
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:47.119
<v Speaker 3>But it also takes this fresh look of saying, you know,

641
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:49.599
<v Speaker 3>how I relate to this experience, how I relate to

642
00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:52.719
<v Speaker 3>that person, or how I relate to myself having done

643
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:56.159
<v Speaker 3>this thing in the past that I might regret, is

644
00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:59.360
<v Speaker 3>really up to me, right, and it's it's it points

645
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.960
<v Speaker 3>us to what empowers me to enter into the next

646
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:06.159
<v Speaker 3>moment a little more freer, a little more kinder, right,

647
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:08.000
<v Speaker 3>with a little more love and patience in the way

648
00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:09.800
<v Speaker 3>that I really want to be in the world. And

649
00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.280
<v Speaker 3>the answer to that is usually forgiveness. That doesn't mean

650
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:15.440
<v Speaker 3>that we just snap our fingers right and say, oh,

651
00:40:15.559 --> 00:40:18.280
<v Speaker 3>you know, this person who did these terrible things, I

652
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:20.800
<v Speaker 3>now forgive them and it's all over. You really really

653
00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:24.719
<v Speaker 3>have to go through this mindful process of examining all

654
00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:28.280
<v Speaker 3>the things that happened. And you know, I have a

655
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.639
<v Speaker 3>similar experience with someone very close to be in my life,

656
00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:34.320
<v Speaker 3>and part of that process for me was writing a

657
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.960
<v Speaker 3>letter to that person, which I think I'd probably mentioned

658
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.239
<v Speaker 3>in the book is a pretty typical practice in these

659
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:43.079
<v Speaker 3>kinds of scenarios to really really go deep onto what

660
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:47.880
<v Speaker 3>happened from my perspective and the horror that it caused

661
00:40:48.039 --> 00:40:51.039
<v Speaker 3>from my perspective. Now, I did not send that letter

662
00:40:51.159 --> 00:40:54.800
<v Speaker 3>to that person, and part of it was because I

663
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:59.000
<v Speaker 3>realized that I was still attached to how they would respond, right,

664
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:02.360
<v Speaker 3>and that's not the point of forgiveness. Right forgiveness, at

665
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:06.039
<v Speaker 3>least as I presented and offer it for people to investigate,

666
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.840
<v Speaker 3>is it's not about whether or not the person deserves

667
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:11.000
<v Speaker 3>it or we think, you know, it's not about how

668
00:41:11.000 --> 00:41:13.000
<v Speaker 3>the person's going to react when we forgive them, or

669
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:14.639
<v Speaker 3>if it's going to change their life or they're going

670
00:41:14.679 --> 00:41:16.599
<v Speaker 3>to set a new path or any of that. That that

671
00:41:16.719 --> 00:41:19.159
<v Speaker 3>is all a version of attachment and to some degree,

672
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.599
<v Speaker 3>control of that other person. It's really about us deciding

673
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:25.440
<v Speaker 3>in our heart that we are now at peace with

674
00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:30.039
<v Speaker 3>what happened. And you know, whether you know that it

675
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.360
<v Speaker 3>was not our responsibility. It was their responsibility. What is

676
00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:35.880
<v Speaker 3>our responsibility is where do we go from here? Right?

677
00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.480
<v Speaker 3>And that's not that other person's responsibility. And that's really

678
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:41.239
<v Speaker 3>the way that it ought to be, is that we

679
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:45.480
<v Speaker 3>don't seed them that responsibility. So it's coming back to

680
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:49.199
<v Speaker 3>center and trying to look at what happened with a

681
00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:54.119
<v Speaker 3>with a calm and patient heart to look at uh uh,

682
00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:57.559
<v Speaker 3>you know, not glossing over any of the of the

683
00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:01.400
<v Speaker 3>hard realities of what may have transpired, but then taking

684
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:05.559
<v Speaker 3>a look again to say, you know, where do we

685
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.079
<v Speaker 3>go from here, and what's what's serving the best, what's

686
00:42:08.119 --> 00:42:11.639
<v Speaker 3>serving this relationship best? And it does get into I

687
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:14.440
<v Speaker 3>do offer again the practice of there's both the mindfulness

688
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:17.039
<v Speaker 3>techniques but also trying to examine the different facets of

689
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:19.960
<v Speaker 3>the situation for their emptiness that they might reveal if

690
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:22.119
<v Speaker 3>we really take a careful look at them, and that

691
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:26.559
<v Speaker 3>can also help us relax that attachment to you know,

692
00:42:26.679 --> 00:42:27.880
<v Speaker 3>whatever it was that transpired.

693
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:33.480
<v Speaker 2>We're going to take a short commercial break to allow

694
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:37.719
<v Speaker 2>our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly

695
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:42.119
<v Speaker 2>with my guest today, Billy Whinn discussing his newest book,

696
00:42:42.679 --> 00:43:31.039
<v Speaker 2>The Empty Path, will return to you shortly. H My

697
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:33.159
<v Speaker 2>guest today is Billy Wynn. He has written a new

698
00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:37.719
<v Speaker 2>book called The Empty Path, Finding Fulfillment through the Radical

699
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Art of Lessening. And we're getting a sense of what

700
00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:43.159
<v Speaker 2>the quality is of life when you don't have to

701
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:54.559
<v Speaker 2>worry and collect items for reward as an adult. This

702
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:58.159
<v Speaker 2>is this is pretty in depth stuff, Billy. I'll tell you,

703
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:04.079
<v Speaker 2>I would just I'm listening to. But we get into

704
00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:13.039
<v Speaker 2>the Hindu system of you gas and these earlier civilizations

705
00:44:13.039 --> 00:44:19.239
<v Speaker 2>that actually appear to will practiced a life that you're describing,

706
00:44:20.199 --> 00:44:29.119
<v Speaker 2>this lessening, This not being so concerned about objective wealth

707
00:44:29.960 --> 00:44:36.079
<v Speaker 2>and satisfaction through collecting items. It was more about how

708
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:40.800
<v Speaker 2>we interacted with other people, our relationships, and how we

709
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:45.880
<v Speaker 2>carried ourself. And this just feels very much like the

710
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:51.360
<v Speaker 2>Trita and Satya yoga period of earlier early man. You know,

711
00:44:51.400 --> 00:44:54.719
<v Speaker 2>it's like, this is so fascinating about this book, my friend,

712
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:58.559
<v Speaker 2>is It's like you are bringing back to us this

713
00:44:58.719 --> 00:45:02.840
<v Speaker 2>earlier phase of humanity that just seems to be so

714
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:07.519
<v Speaker 2>much more in touch with Earth but also individually in touch,

715
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, and walking this path you know, almost christ

716
00:45:10.719 --> 00:45:14.599
<v Speaker 2>like beings, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

717
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:17.119
<v Speaker 3>Well I appreciate you saying that. I mean, Saint John

718
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:19.400
<v Speaker 3>of the Cross said to become that which we are not,

719
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:21.599
<v Speaker 3>we have to go by the way that we know not.

720
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:25.480
<v Speaker 3>And so in other words, this is about the resolution

721
00:45:25.559 --> 00:45:29.880
<v Speaker 3>of our suffering, you know. So, and to really approach that,

722
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:32.840
<v Speaker 3>we have to try a different path, you know, the

723
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:38.239
<v Speaker 3>prototypical mode of life, and not really just for the West,

724
00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:40.960
<v Speaker 3>although West is maybe it's kind of easy. Well, us

725
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:42.760
<v Speaker 3>living in it, it's certainly easy for us to relate

726
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:45.800
<v Speaker 3>to and see, but really, you know, the experience of

727
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:49.800
<v Speaker 3>humankind is this this rushing around in circles to try

728
00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:52.480
<v Speaker 3>to find happiness outside of us, and it's just inevitably

729
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:57.119
<v Speaker 3>inherently unsatisfying. And one point I want to make clear,

730
00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:59.960
<v Speaker 3>and I do appreciate that kind of analogy and archetype

731
00:46:00.079 --> 00:46:04.079
<v Speaker 3>to the to the ancient you know, Vedic people in India,

732
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:07.760
<v Speaker 3>but it's available to us right now. You know, That's

733
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.119
<v Speaker 3>one thing I'm trying to make clear, and definitely right

734
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:12.960
<v Speaker 3>right just here and now, in the nittigree of the

735
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:15.960
<v Speaker 3>stressful job and the family and the ups and downs

736
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:18.840
<v Speaker 3>and the hardship, you know, you know, none of those

737
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:22.239
<v Speaker 3>things needs to block us from the peace and the

738
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:25.519
<v Speaker 3>beauty and the love that is always right here all along.

739
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:27.360
<v Speaker 3>It's just a question of not whether or not we

740
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.639
<v Speaker 3>really can pay attention to it.

741
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, thank you for that. I appreciate it. You

742
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:34.840
<v Speaker 2>bring up a topic that is really a problem in

743
00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:37.480
<v Speaker 2>our culture, and this is the and you actually call it,

744
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:42.480
<v Speaker 2>the culture of competition. And this is very, very damaging.

745
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:45.679
<v Speaker 2>As a kid, we're always showing, you know, beat the

746
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:49.840
<v Speaker 2>other guy, no matter what the cost, that kind of attitude.

747
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:54.320
<v Speaker 2>How does competition influence this and how do we begin

748
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:56.840
<v Speaker 2>moving away from having that kind of a mindset.

749
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:01.519
<v Speaker 3>Sure, so, well it's interesting. Son's fourteen, and I see this,

750
00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:04.400
<v Speaker 3>and yeah, all my best efforts to the contract. He's

751
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:08.000
<v Speaker 3>as competitive as as anybody. You know, that's just that's

752
00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.519
<v Speaker 3>just the way it is. So but I see it,

753
00:47:10.559 --> 00:47:13.800
<v Speaker 3>and we all you know, it's not to separate or judge,

754
00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:17.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, others from myself. Well, we all experience this,

755
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:20.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, in big and small ways. But it is

756
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:22.679
<v Speaker 3>interesting to see through his eyes. You know, he's on

757
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:25.599
<v Speaker 3>a team and the team has the red jersey and

758
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:28.000
<v Speaker 3>all the kids on the other team have a blue jersey,

759
00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.239
<v Speaker 3>and it's like, you know, I mean hate is a

760
00:47:30.239 --> 00:47:32.360
<v Speaker 3>strong word, but they're the enemy, you know, right, I

761
00:47:32.360 --> 00:47:35.239
<v Speaker 3>mean they're the enemy. Yeah, it comes just short of

762
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.719
<v Speaker 3>hoping they get hurt or something. But it's almost like that, right,

763
00:47:38.920 --> 00:47:41.800
<v Speaker 3>And so clearly that's not a healthy you know, it's

764
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:45.119
<v Speaker 3>a natural and common mindset, but I think it's easy

765
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:48.960
<v Speaker 3>to say it's not a reasonably healthy one. So how

766
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.719
<v Speaker 3>do we begin to relax that, you know dynamic. Well, yeah,

767
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:57.239
<v Speaker 3>we can pause and take a look a little more carefully,

768
00:47:57.320 --> 00:47:59.639
<v Speaker 3>rather than sort of jumping into our role, you know,

769
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:03.559
<v Speaker 3>as the opponent or the competitor and having this mindset

770
00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:07.400
<v Speaker 3>of you know, zero sum, you know, game of scarcity

771
00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:10.199
<v Speaker 3>and if that person gets that, that I'm not going

772
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:13.119
<v Speaker 3>to get that, and you know, that sort of mentality

773
00:48:13.639 --> 00:48:18.280
<v Speaker 3>to say that, first of all, we are already uh,

774
00:48:18.519 --> 00:48:23.079
<v Speaker 3>you know, fulfilled and satisfied and sufficient and enough from

775
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:24.920
<v Speaker 3>the very beginning. You know, we don't we don't need

776
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:27.519
<v Speaker 3>different things. You know, we are whole and complete human beings.

777
00:48:27.519 --> 00:48:29.320
<v Speaker 3>It's how we're made, whether you believe that from the

778
00:48:29.320 --> 00:48:32.280
<v Speaker 3>spiritual perspective, we're just just accepting that that is who

779
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:35.679
<v Speaker 3>and what we are to you know. We so the

780
00:48:35.800 --> 00:48:40.199
<v Speaker 3>idea that we are competing for scarce. You know, victories

781
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.440
<v Speaker 3>is an illusion and it's what we buy into. We

782
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.440
<v Speaker 3>sometimes you think it's fun, but it can easily go

783
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:51.239
<v Speaker 3>too far. And another aspect of this that that comes

784
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:53.760
<v Speaker 3>up is is othering. I talked about other ing in

785
00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:55.960
<v Speaker 3>the book. Right, so again this whole I've got the

786
00:48:56.000 --> 00:48:58.119
<v Speaker 3>red jersey on, you've got the blue jersey on. Well,

787
00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:01.039
<v Speaker 3>you are separate from me, and all I'm going to

788
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:03.320
<v Speaker 3>see you as is this kind of caricature of a

789
00:49:03.400 --> 00:49:05.840
<v Speaker 3>human being. Right, all you are is my enity. It's

790
00:49:05.880 --> 00:49:08.159
<v Speaker 3>kind of reminds me of a I love the scene

791
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:11.960
<v Speaker 3>in that movie There Will be Blood where the oil

792
00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:14.199
<v Speaker 3>guy his son comes to him and his son has

793
00:49:14.239 --> 00:49:16.400
<v Speaker 3>decided this is near the end, decides to go into

794
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:19.320
<v Speaker 3>the oil business, and he's Daniel da Lewis. He's like,

795
00:49:19.400 --> 00:49:22.599
<v Speaker 3>that makes you a competitor, right like, and that's all

796
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.280
<v Speaker 3>from then on he's no longer his son. He's a competitor.

797
00:49:25.559 --> 00:49:28.119
<v Speaker 3>So it's a beautiful, I think, illustration of how how

798
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:30.679
<v Speaker 3>how powerful and dangerous that mindset can be.

799
00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:38.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, good analogy. How do we cultivate the practice

800
00:49:38.599 --> 00:49:42.440
<v Speaker 2>of emptiness on a daily basis? I'd love to have

801
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.480
<v Speaker 2>some examples because I'm trying to get my mind around this.

802
00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:50.400
<v Speaker 3>Uh you know, yes, I hear you. And it's not easy,

803
00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:53.400
<v Speaker 3>you know, unfortunately, because we're so trained to live in

804
00:49:53.400 --> 00:49:54.039
<v Speaker 3>the other mode.

805
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:57.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's it's how we exist. It's how we're educated

806
00:49:57.559 --> 00:50:01.039
<v Speaker 2>and how we are raised. It's you know, get the

807
00:50:01.239 --> 00:50:03.840
<v Speaker 2>get a buck, get a buck. Even when you're retired,

808
00:50:03.880 --> 00:50:06.679
<v Speaker 2>it's like, you know, invest correctly, Oh you didn't, You

809
00:50:06.760 --> 00:50:08.840
<v Speaker 2>better get some more money. You know, you got to

810
00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:09.599
<v Speaker 2>go back to work.

811
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.280
<v Speaker 3>Watch the ticker every day, and yeah, even the golf

812
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:17.000
<v Speaker 3>game becomes really competitive and stressful. And so yeah, I hear,

813
00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:20.360
<v Speaker 3>I hear all that. So a couple of a couple

814
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.760
<v Speaker 3>of things, you know, One is that I do recommend

815
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:30.199
<v Speaker 3>sometime of dedicated meditative practice. It can be five minutes,

816
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.360
<v Speaker 3>it could be you know, we we tell ourselves we

817
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:34.880
<v Speaker 3>don't have enough time for that, but we're wrong. We do.

818
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:38.840
<v Speaker 3>We've got five minutes, We've got ten minutes. And what

819
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:42.199
<v Speaker 3>helped me was that early on I started, even just

820
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:45.039
<v Speaker 3>in five ten minutes, I started to notice that I

821
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:48.039
<v Speaker 3>was more relaxed. You know, it started to feel good

822
00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:52.239
<v Speaker 3>even for bro brief minutes, you know, during a five

823
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.719
<v Speaker 3>or ten minute meditation practice, and when I was just

824
00:50:54.760 --> 00:50:57.239
<v Speaker 3>getting started, and that was enough to say, Okay, there's

825
00:50:57.239 --> 00:50:59.440
<v Speaker 3>there's something to this. This is this actually can work,

826
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.159
<v Speaker 3>even though the time I was my mind still racing

827
00:51:02.199 --> 00:51:03.719
<v Speaker 3>around and I'm not sure I'm doing it right and

828
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:05.400
<v Speaker 3>my back's a little sore and all that kind of stuff.

829
00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:08.280
<v Speaker 2>Were you doing a Buddhist practice? Uh, Billy.

830
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.519
<v Speaker 3>I started with mindfulness of meditation, which which is kind

831
00:51:12.519 --> 00:51:15.000
<v Speaker 3>of secularized in the US, but it does does sort of,

832
00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:18.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, descend from Buddhist practices. Curious, Okay, yeah, sure,

833
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:23.239
<v Speaker 3>kind of in the insight with the the tradition that

834
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:25.840
<v Speaker 3>I know, certified to teach in the Insight and meditation tradition,

835
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:29.920
<v Speaker 3>which is again very closely linked Buddhism, but it's been

836
00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:32.360
<v Speaker 3>secularized for broader audiences, in which I think is a

837
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.199
<v Speaker 3>great thing. I mean, you know, you do not need

838
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:36.000
<v Speaker 3>to be a Buddhist, and you do not need to

839
00:51:36.039 --> 00:51:40.000
<v Speaker 3>abandon whatever spiritual path you're on to apply mindfulness practices

840
00:51:40.039 --> 00:51:41.719
<v Speaker 3>to your life, you know, in a very productive way.

841
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:46.480
<v Speaker 3>So so I started with that, and you know, you

842
00:51:47.280 --> 00:51:49.119
<v Speaker 3>if you give it a little bit of time, you

843
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:52.119
<v Speaker 3>will see a little bit of calm. You know. Again,

844
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:56.840
<v Speaker 3>the key to success that I that I always point

845
00:51:56.840 --> 00:52:00.360
<v Speaker 3>to is to put down our judgments and expectations upon meditation.

846
00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:02.960
<v Speaker 3>Should be like before we start, right, forget about the

847
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:05.280
<v Speaker 3>cover of the magazine you saw off the grocery store shelf,

848
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:09.039
<v Speaker 3>like forget about the sunset, and you know, the kind

849
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:12.239
<v Speaker 3>of nervonic way that people think you're supposed to be.

850
00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:15.719
<v Speaker 3>That's not how it is. The practice of mindfulness is

851
00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:20.719
<v Speaker 3>simply finding a place for quiet, to start to focus

852
00:52:20.719 --> 00:52:23.079
<v Speaker 3>on our breath and for our mind to wander off

853
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:25.239
<v Speaker 3>over and over again, and to gently bring it back.

854
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:29.000
<v Speaker 3>That's really the crux of the practice. And so people

855
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:30.920
<v Speaker 3>think they're not cut out for it when their mind

856
00:52:30.920 --> 00:52:33.760
<v Speaker 3>starts to wander, and it's actually that's just what it is.

857
00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:36.440
<v Speaker 3>That's the practice of noticing that. So that's one thing.

858
00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:41.239
<v Speaker 3>Another very key, and this is also accessible throughout the day,

859
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:46.400
<v Speaker 3>is sort of sematic awareness or embodymit practice. So in

860
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:47.880
<v Speaker 3>this I think it's in the second chapter where I

861
00:52:47.960 --> 00:52:50.079
<v Speaker 3>talk about this, but a more formal way to do

862
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:52.840
<v Speaker 3>this is like a body scan, got five ten minutes

863
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:54.559
<v Speaker 3>to go, you know, start I start at the feet,

864
00:52:54.559 --> 00:52:56.000
<v Speaker 3>some people start at the head and just kind of

865
00:52:56.039 --> 00:52:58.760
<v Speaker 3>go through and just tune into each portion of your

866
00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:00.880
<v Speaker 3>body and see how it feels. There is one way

867
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:04.599
<v Speaker 3>to reacquaint ourselves with our body. Especially we tend to

868
00:53:04.599 --> 00:53:06.920
<v Speaker 3>be very cerebral, right neck up is how we live

869
00:53:06.960 --> 00:53:08.960
<v Speaker 3>a lot of our lives, and we think that our

870
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:11.559
<v Speaker 3>thoughts and our problem solving and all that kind of

871
00:53:11.559 --> 00:53:14.400
<v Speaker 3>stuff is actually the reality. Well, you know, ninety percent

872
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:16.760
<v Speaker 3>of us is from the neck down. That's also walking

873
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:19.159
<v Speaker 3>through life with us, and it can just be a

874
00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.480
<v Speaker 3>helpful reminder to kind of come down out of that

875
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:27.320
<v Speaker 3>thought cycle and reattune to the presence of what's actually

876
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:30.159
<v Speaker 3>happening in our lives, which our body is more directly

877
00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:32.920
<v Speaker 3>connected to. There's two examples I could go up.

878
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:37.119
<v Speaker 2>Okay, other excellent the books called The Empty Path Finding

879
00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Fulfillment through the Radical Art of Lessening. I guess today's

880
00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:48.199
<v Speaker 2>been Billy. When who did you write this book for? Billy?

881
00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Who is the reader? What's the audience you're looking to attract?

882
00:53:54.079 --> 00:53:57.079
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think if you are looking to find a

883
00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:02.119
<v Speaker 3>little bit more ease and satisfaction and fulfillment in your life.

884
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:04.559
<v Speaker 3>So you know, and my publicist did tell me to

885
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:07.760
<v Speaker 3>say this, but pretty much everyone that My hope is

886
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:10.199
<v Speaker 3>that there could be some teachings in here that will

887
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:14.639
<v Speaker 3>benefit you. Now, you know, the most natural reader, may

888
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:17.159
<v Speaker 3>you know, maybe they've tried meditation a few times at least.

889
00:54:17.199 --> 00:54:19.559
<v Speaker 3>Maybe they've you know, heard a few things about Buddhism

890
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:23.159
<v Speaker 3>and they think it's interesting. You know, maybe they you know,

891
00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:25.719
<v Speaker 3>have been on a you know, done done yoga. It's

892
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:27.719
<v Speaker 3>something like this. It just cots to these different things

893
00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:30.519
<v Speaker 3>that are sort of a step toward this end of

894
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:34.039
<v Speaker 3>the spectrum of the path that I'm presenting. But you know,

895
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:37.039
<v Speaker 3>it's really designed for for anyone at any stage of life.

896
00:54:37.079 --> 00:54:39.360
<v Speaker 3>My daughter is eighteen and first year in college, and

897
00:54:39.639 --> 00:54:41.559
<v Speaker 3>I think that she and some of our friends could

898
00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:43.400
<v Speaker 3>benefit from it. She'll read it.

899
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:45.239
<v Speaker 2>Did she get a copy of the book.

900
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:47.280
<v Speaker 3>I've given it to her this weekend. I'm gonna see

901
00:54:47.320 --> 00:54:49.360
<v Speaker 3>her in New York. So yeah, she asked for it.

902
00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:53.079
<v Speaker 3>I'm not forcing her to read it. But you know,

903
00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:55.840
<v Speaker 3>so I think really anything, even retirement, you know, if

904
00:54:55.840 --> 00:54:58.320
<v Speaker 3>you're thinking about well and obvious, a lot of people

905
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:01.639
<v Speaker 3>experience a sense of loss and and unfulfillment and retired

906
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:03.719
<v Speaker 3>it and so saying, well, what's already here, what can

907
00:55:03.760 --> 00:55:05.960
<v Speaker 3>I be grateful for what's what's you know, what's kind

908
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:08.840
<v Speaker 3>of naturally fulfilling about where I am right now, and

909
00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:12.119
<v Speaker 3>reattuning to that can be very helpful. So I offer

910
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:14.880
<v Speaker 3>it for for all, and you know, I hope it

911
00:55:14.920 --> 00:55:15.639
<v Speaker 3>connects with people.

912
00:55:16.239 --> 00:55:19.320
<v Speaker 2>You know, It's funny. I have been meditating for deal

913
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:23.599
<v Speaker 2>over thirty years. I got into transigental meditation when it

914
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:28.079
<v Speaker 2>was the thing, and it's a mantra based meditation, and

915
00:55:28.119 --> 00:55:31.559
<v Speaker 2>there's certain mantra based meditations that are out there. But

916
00:55:32.239 --> 00:55:35.360
<v Speaker 2>I think you're suggesting pretty much whatever works, as long

917
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:39.960
<v Speaker 2>as you can quiet the brain quite the mind. I

918
00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:44.239
<v Speaker 2>didn't check do you recommend one or two noted meditative

919
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:48.639
<v Speaker 2>practices or I didn't see any guidelines for that, but

920
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:50.719
<v Speaker 2>maybe they're in your book somewhere.

921
00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:58.840
<v Speaker 3>Sure, so there is some reasonably detailed instruction on meditation

922
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:02.440
<v Speaker 3>practice going into the mindfulness of breath practice that's offered

923
00:56:02.440 --> 00:56:05.159
<v Speaker 3>in the first chapter each of the And I'm glad

924
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:08.360
<v Speaker 3>you raised this because there's there's ten chapters and each

925
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 3>one offers a guided meditation. There's recordings of those on

926
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:14.599
<v Speaker 3>my website at Billy Winn dot com and in the

927
00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:16.480
<v Speaker 3>book that people can you know, because sometimes you don't

928
00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:18.239
<v Speaker 3>want to read while you're meditating. You want to hear

929
00:56:18.320 --> 00:56:22.360
<v Speaker 3>something maybe, And and I guess what I want to

930
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:26.360
<v Speaker 3>make sure I say is that I don't think anybody

931
00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:28.679
<v Speaker 3>is going to do all ten of those all the time, right,

932
00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:31.039
<v Speaker 3>So it's it's it's a bit you can I invite

933
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:34.039
<v Speaker 3>people to try them and see what starts to resonate

934
00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:36.400
<v Speaker 3>with them, and you know that might be the thing

935
00:56:36.440 --> 00:56:38.159
<v Speaker 3>that they might not be mindpulos to the breadth, that

936
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:40.079
<v Speaker 3>might not be mindpulos to the body, might be the

937
00:56:40.119 --> 00:56:44.280
<v Speaker 3>meta loving kindness meditation, which is another instruction in one

938
00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:47.760
<v Speaker 3>of the chapters. So, uh, you know, at the end

939
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:50.079
<v Speaker 3>of the day, what's going to work is what feels

940
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:54.519
<v Speaker 3>right and is integrated into somebody's life most naturally. And

941
00:56:54.599 --> 00:56:57.440
<v Speaker 3>so this is really, as I call it, part of

942
00:56:57.440 --> 00:57:00.480
<v Speaker 3>the path of lessening is to decide what in these

943
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.880
<v Speaker 3>pages actually connects with and works for you, and that

944
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:04.320
<v Speaker 3>that can be the thing that you take with you.

945
00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:08.559
<v Speaker 2>Okay, you guys heard it. Billy win w y n

946
00:57:08.760 --> 00:57:12.480
<v Speaker 2>N dot com and Billy is going to provide you

947
00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:16.639
<v Speaker 2>with guided meditations. And that's a great, great, great lead

948
00:57:16.760 --> 00:57:19.880
<v Speaker 2>to get the book because obviously you read the book,

949
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:22.599
<v Speaker 2>you follow it up with the medication meditation. If you

950
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:29.119
<v Speaker 2>haven't meditated before, Billy is going to guide you, which

951
00:57:29.159 --> 00:57:31.039
<v Speaker 2>is really a big plus because a lot of people

952
00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:35.239
<v Speaker 2>don't know how to meditate or they can't sit still

953
00:57:35.239 --> 00:57:38.079
<v Speaker 2>long enough to meditate. And I have friends that are

954
00:57:38.119 --> 00:57:42.800
<v Speaker 2>like that too, So fantastic, Billy. Much success on this book.

955
00:57:42.920 --> 00:57:44.920
<v Speaker 2>And for those of you listening, you can get a

956
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:48.519
<v Speaker 2>copy on Amazon. How else can people learn about you?

957
00:57:48.519 --> 00:57:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Give us your other resources?

958
00:57:50.800 --> 00:57:54.519
<v Speaker 3>Sure, there's Billywinn dot com. The book's also available on

959
00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:57.159
<v Speaker 3>bookshop dot org. You know, some people don't like Amazon,

960
00:57:57.360 --> 00:57:59.960
<v Speaker 3>and really, you know, most online platforms are going to

961
00:58:00.039 --> 00:58:03.159
<v Speaker 3>It comes out on March eighteenth, and the best place

962
00:58:03.199 --> 00:58:04.719
<v Speaker 3>to learn about it is to go to my website,

963
00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:07.079
<v Speaker 3>Billy Wynn dot com. I am having events in Denver

964
00:58:07.199 --> 00:58:10.159
<v Speaker 3>and Boulder in my hometown area of Norfolk, Virginia in

965
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:12.079
<v Speaker 3>the coming weeks where I'll be talking about the book

966
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:14.679
<v Speaker 3>and signing it for folks who are there. All that

967
00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:17.360
<v Speaker 3>information is on my website and the guided meditations and

968
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:21.239
<v Speaker 3>other stuff. So yeah, and folks to visit.

969
00:58:21.599 --> 00:58:24.079
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for joining me. Hey, much success on this book.

970
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Really a little great in depth look at peace of

971
00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:32.039
<v Speaker 2>the mind, body, and spirit. Fantastic congratulations.

972
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:34.599
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for having me. I really really appreciate it's great

973
00:58:34.679 --> 00:58:35.119
<v Speaker 3>chatting with you.

974
00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:43.760
<v Speaker 2>There was something very refreshing about his explanation for that

975
00:58:43.800 --> 00:58:47.719
<v Speaker 2>state of mind to be more present, to be more

976
00:58:48.880 --> 00:58:53.480
<v Speaker 2>aware of those around you and your environment. I mean,

977
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:57.719
<v Speaker 2>I was, I was thinking about these earlier periods of time.

978
00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:00.280
<v Speaker 2>We don't really know, we have no there's no way

979
00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:06.519
<v Speaker 2>to write about people's personalities before the Greeks, before the Sumerians.

980
00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:09.880
<v Speaker 2>But in that earlier epoch that we were always talking about,

981
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.639
<v Speaker 2>But you got to wonder, how did people think, How

982
00:59:13.639 --> 00:59:17.440
<v Speaker 2>did people exist? Objects weren't that big a deal apparently,

983
00:59:18.519 --> 00:59:21.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, And so reflection was big, you know. And

984
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:23.960
<v Speaker 2>I would think that forgiveness was a part of their

985
00:59:24.000 --> 00:59:27.119
<v Speaker 2>life as well, in that Satia and treats to period

986
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:31.039
<v Speaker 2>the Golden Age. But you didn't make those kind of mistakes.

987
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:33.840
<v Speaker 2>It was just you were. I would think that you

988
00:59:33.880 --> 00:59:37.800
<v Speaker 2>were much more in harmony as a human being and

989
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:41.719
<v Speaker 2>those around you and as well as nature. So if

990
00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:45.400
<v Speaker 2>we're rebooting and heading back into this Golden Age, you know,

991
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:49.880
<v Speaker 2>many thousands of years from now, this book could be

992
00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:55.360
<v Speaker 2>a representative of that coming age and the techniques he

993
00:59:55.440 --> 01:00:01.559
<v Speaker 2>offers and the reflections in different chapters are really great

994
01:00:01.840 --> 01:00:05.000
<v Speaker 2>for getting in touch, you know. And what a great

995
01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:11.480
<v Speaker 2>gift that he's giving you by providing guided meditations. If

996
01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:15.679
<v Speaker 2>you're not one for meditating, he's providing guided meditations. That's

997
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:18.199
<v Speaker 2>unheard of most of the time. You have to go

998
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:23.199
<v Speaker 2>to audible or a special pay site and pay twenty

999
01:00:23.199 --> 01:00:29.239
<v Speaker 2>bucks for the honor for the privilege of listening to

1000
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:32.519
<v Speaker 2>a guided meditation. And I have to say, and I

1001
01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:36.000
<v Speaker 2>haven't really brought this up enough, guided meditations are the

1002
01:00:36.000 --> 01:00:39.519
<v Speaker 2>best way to get involved, to get started with meditating.

1003
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:42.719
<v Speaker 2>So as you close your eyes, and if you're like

1004
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:46.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people, your mind starts wandering and running interference.

1005
01:00:47.199 --> 01:00:51.639
<v Speaker 2>Someone walking you through or guiding you through a meditation

1006
01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:56.239
<v Speaker 2>is the best way to start. Then you're guided into

1007
01:00:56.559 --> 01:01:00.480
<v Speaker 2>going to those deeper, lower levels and you automatically train

1008
01:01:00.559 --> 01:01:07.719
<v Speaker 2>your brain to relax, to sink, to expand. So that's

1009
01:01:07.760 --> 01:01:12.360
<v Speaker 2>a real nice gift that Billy offered. Again, Billy win

1010
01:01:12.840 --> 01:01:17.000
<v Speaker 2>w y n N dot com. And that's where all

1011
01:01:17.079 --> 01:01:21.639
<v Speaker 2>these guide of meditations are. Hey, we do a few

1012
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:26.480
<v Speaker 2>tours every year. We try to do three usually it's Egypt, Turkey, Mexico.

1013
01:01:26.559 --> 01:01:29.559
<v Speaker 2>But in twenty twenty five we're going to be in

1014
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:32.239
<v Speaker 2>Easter Island in a week. We'll be there from the

1015
01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:36.440
<v Speaker 2>fourteenth of March to the twenty sixth, and then we're

1016
01:01:36.480 --> 01:01:41.239
<v Speaker 2>going to be in Turkey June twenty second through July second,

1017
01:01:42.000 --> 01:01:44.440
<v Speaker 2>and then to cap it all off, will be in

1018
01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.760
<v Speaker 2>Guatemala for Day of the Day, which is the end

1019
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:49.960
<v Speaker 2>of October of this year. We might do that, or

1020
01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:52.079
<v Speaker 2>we might do that. We haven't confirmed the dates, but

1021
01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:54.079
<v Speaker 2>we might do the second week of November as well,

1022
01:01:55.039 --> 01:01:58.880
<v Speaker 2>or excuse me, the first week of November. Whatever we do,

1023
01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:02.440
<v Speaker 2>let me just tell you our tours are fabulous. They

1024
01:02:02.480 --> 01:02:06.840
<v Speaker 2>are cost effective, typically half the price of other listed

1025
01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:12.119
<v Speaker 2>contemporary tours, complete coverage, all your food, all your beverages,

1026
01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:15.880
<v Speaker 2>all your travel, all your passes, and these wonderful guys

1027
01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:21.000
<v Speaker 2>that we recruit to you know, choice the way, and

1028
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:25.079
<v Speaker 2>these are likely most of the time these are archaeologists,

1029
01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:29.440
<v Speaker 2>filled researchers. Sometimes it's an author or two, and then

1030
01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:34.000
<v Speaker 2>our guide, our hosts. So we got Turkey coming up,

1031
01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:37.599
<v Speaker 2>consider it, We're about half full. This is a wonderful tour.

1032
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:41.760
<v Speaker 2>We all meet an instant Istanbul June twenty second, and

1033
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:48.039
<v Speaker 2>we'll be seeing Darren Kuru, the underground city Cappadocia, some amazing,

1034
01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:52.280
<v Speaker 2>amazing museums. I was very surprised at the museums, pleasantly

1035
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:57.119
<v Speaker 2>surprised at how sophisticated they were in Istanbul. Throughout the Turkey,

1036
01:02:57.159 --> 01:03:00.079
<v Speaker 2>they were all wonderful. We're going to be going to

1037
01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:04.320
<v Speaker 2>go Beckley Teppe, the oldest temple in the world, or

1038
01:03:04.360 --> 01:03:08.559
<v Speaker 2>to driving up to Carahan Teppe. We're gonna go to

1039
01:03:09.159 --> 01:03:14.199
<v Speaker 2>Spice Market and some bizaars. It is a fabulous elimitad

1040
01:03:14.280 --> 01:03:16.159
<v Speaker 2>tour and we'd love to have you with it. For

1041
01:03:16.199 --> 01:03:18.559
<v Speaker 2>more information and all the details, go to earth ancients

1042
01:03:18.599 --> 01:03:21.920
<v Speaker 2>dot com, Forward slash Tours. Let me know if you're interested,

1043
01:03:22.440 --> 01:03:24.719
<v Speaker 2>and if you have any questions whatsoever and you want

1044
01:03:24.760 --> 01:03:27.519
<v Speaker 2>more information, send me an email. Send it to earth

1045
01:03:27.559 --> 01:03:30.119
<v Speaker 2>Ancients the number four of the letter you at gmail

1046
01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:33.880
<v Speaker 2>dot com and we'll get right back to you earthcents

1047
01:03:33.880 --> 01:03:38.559
<v Speaker 2>dot com, Forward slash Tours come on and join us.

1048
01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:40.840
<v Speaker 2>All right, that's it for this program. I want to

1049
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:44.280
<v Speaker 2>think My guest today Billy Winn discussing his new book

1050
01:03:44.400 --> 01:03:47.920
<v Speaker 2>The Empty Path. As always, the team of Gail tour

1051
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Mark Foster, and everyone who makes this thing happen. You

1052
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:55.679
<v Speaker 2>guys rock all right, Take care of you well, and

1053
01:03:55.719 --> 01:03:57.239
<v Speaker 2>we will talk to you next time.