WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:07.960 Oh, it's show tied. 2 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:10.519 People say, good money to see this movie. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:14.679 When they go out to a theater, they want cold sodas, pop, popcorn, 4 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.919 and no monsters. 5 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:19.440 In the protection booth, everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 6 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:41.000 Got it off? Do you know this place? 7 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:46.079 I want to say, yes, go in there for you. 8 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:50.280 I want to I haven't said. Is there is there 9 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:53.119 a duration that you feel I'm gonna. 10 00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:53.520 Go wherever you go. 11 00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:56.640 You know that. 12 00:00:58.520 --> 00:00:59.640 You're scaring me a little bit. 13 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:09.359 I feel like, you know, won't let anyone near that. 14 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:16.840 This crowd back in the corner violent. I've never seen 15 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:21.480 the parents behave, so they can get very protective. 16 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:39.799 The water before you is somehow special. It is better 17 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:45.879 than anything you've ever tasted. Each drink is better than 18 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:46.280 the last. 19 00:01:50.239 --> 00:02:45.879 Take a drink now, Welcome to the projection booth. I'm 20 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:47.919 your host. Mike White joined me once again as mister 21 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:48.800 Ben Buckingham. 22 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:50.280 Hello, everybody. 23 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:53.680 Also back in the booth is mister Jim Lekowski. 24 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:55.439 I could be a starling. 25 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:59.639 We continue sci Fi July with a film from twenty 26 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:04.319 three teen, Chinkruf's Upstream Color, the story of a woman 27 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.280 who has drug robbed and becomes soulmates with a pig, 28 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.360 and no I'm not talking about Shinkruf himself in a 29 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:14.840 complex hypnotic film about cycles, trauma, and cheens. We are 30 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:17.159 going to be spoiling this film as much as it 31 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.520 can be spoiled, So if you don't want anything ruined, 32 00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:21.719 please turn off the podcast and come back after you've 33 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:24.680 seen it. You really need to see this film. Let 34 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:27.120 me just say that right now. We will still be 35 00:03:27.240 --> 00:03:29.639 here when we come back. So, Ben, when was the 36 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:32.280 first time you saw upstream color and what did you think? 37 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:35.039 I'm not one hundred percent sure of which year it was. 38 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:37.960 It was probably twenty thirteen, but it might have been 39 00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:41.439 twenty fourteen. It was the Melbourne International Film Festival. It 40 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:44.639 was at the old Grady Union Cinema in their really 41 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:47.759 massive one that sat like eight hundred people, big screen, 42 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:51.680 old school like seventies eighties built plays, and me and 43 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:55.360 my mate wins at dead center, front row and just 44 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.879 like completely swallowed up by the whole experience, and we 45 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:04.199 loved it. I'd seen Primer ten years previous to that 46 00:04:04.879 --> 00:04:07.400 and had been waiting eagerly for this film because it 47 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.840 took a while to get to Australian Shores, and yeah, 48 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:12.759 absolutely adored it at the time. 49 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:14.520 And Jim, how about yourself? 50 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:18.199 I started the Music Box Theater here in Chicago, Illinois. 51 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:21.319 I believe it was opening weekend when it came out 52 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:25.639 in twenty thirteen with Shane Caruth in attendance for a 53 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:30.879 very interesting and insightful Q and A. And my initial reaction, well, 54 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:33.560 I was like, Okay, all bets are off. This is 55 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:36.439 everything I want from cinema pretty much. And I know 56 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:40.800 I'm prone to hyperbole, but it has become over time 57 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:43.439 one of my favorite movies for a lot of reasons 58 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.319 that I'm sure we'll talk about, but yeah, I mean 59 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:50.399 that first viewing still I was disoriented and dazed and 60 00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:52.920 completely unsure of what to think about, what it all 61 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:57.759 meant and even what Caruth's intention was, especially on first viewing, 62 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.079 because you know it, it's just something you have to 63 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:05.399 watch multiple times, I think, and to really let it 64 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:10.120 sink in. But this is just everything I want from 65 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:14.959 an intellectual movie experience, and I want something that surprises me, 66 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:17.800 that gets me out of my comfort zone, and this 67 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:20.920 is all of that and more. So we'll dive right 68 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.920 into exactly why I think it's pretty much a masterpiece, 69 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:26.879 but I have reservations that you may or may not 70 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:29.959 have alluded to early on in your intro there, Mike. 71 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.240 I saw this one on video for the first time, 72 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:37.399 probably in twenty thirteen, maybe twenty fourteen, because it used 73 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:39.800 to take a little while longer for things to come 74 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:42.959 to VHS or DVD. It was probably DVD at that time, 75 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:47.959 twenty thirteen. And I'm pretty jealous of you guys having 76 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:50.480 seen this in a theater. I don't know why I 77 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:54.199 didn't see it in a theater. I liked Primer, liked Primer. 78 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:57.199 I didn't love Primer, but I liked Primer. I don't 79 00:05:57.199 --> 00:05:59.439 know what it was about Primer, but I didn't have 80 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:01.839 any i's really following it. I don't know if I 81 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:06.000 just like locked into the rhythm or whatever. But I 82 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:08.800 was like, Oh, this is brilliant. But then when people 83 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:10.879 were like, oh, it's so confusing and they're making maps 84 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.319 and stuff, I'm like, I didn't really need that. It 85 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:15.279 was cool for like Maholland Drive. We want to make 86 00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.839 me a map of Mahallan Drive. Sure feel free this film. Also, 87 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:23.399 when I got into it, I was a little confused 88 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:25.759 watching it, but then at some point I had this 89 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:30.839 aha moment and I just said, oh, all right, it's 90 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:34.199 all starting to make sense. What's happening between the worms 91 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:39.360 and the people and the pigs and the flowers. I'm 92 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:43.959 just like, okay, it's all coming to me now. And 93 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:48.480 when it was done, I was breathless. I am right 94 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:51.120 there with you, Jim. As far as this feeling like 95 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:56.800 a really perfect film, just everything about it just really 96 00:06:56.920 --> 00:06:59.519 clicks for me. I know, I'm going to say the 97 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:03.079 word had I'm gonna say the film washes over you. 98 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:07.000 All those types of things are absolutely true. I think 99 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.240 a lot of that has to do with the music, 100 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:13.480 which is very lulling. He uses music so well, he 101 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:17.920 can pose the fucking music. Caruth really fits into that. 102 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.800 A tour model of stars in the film. He wrote 103 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:23.720 the film, he directed the film, He did the music 104 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:25.519 for the film. I don't know if he edited the film. 105 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:28.040 I need to look at the credits again. The editing 106 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:31.959 style goes so well with the music, which goes so 107 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:34.480 well with the shooting style. The whole use of a 108 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:37.920 very narrow depth of field so many times, and just 109 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:42.240 how he uses focus, how he frames things. Everything in 110 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.000 this movie fits together so well for me. Like this 111 00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:48.879 beautifully crafted puzzle and you can go back and you 112 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:51.040 can just get more and more out of it every 113 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:54.120 single time. Like as I'm writing my notes last night, 114 00:07:54.199 --> 00:07:57.399 I'm getting embarrassed because I'm like writing wah in the 115 00:07:57.639 --> 00:07:59.240 in the notes, you know, I'm just like, look at 116 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:02.519 that shot. This is so perfect. Everything comes together in 117 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.480 a beautiful, beautiful way in upstream color. 118 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:08.480 Yeah, he wrote the score. This is very unconventional, I think. 119 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:12.199 But he wrote the score while writing the script, which 120 00:08:12.319 --> 00:08:16.800 is not something I think most filmmakers do. And I 121 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:19.720 don't know if that just led to the music being 122 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.279 so complimentary to everything going on, but it does have 123 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:27.240 this fluidity and this rhythm that makes this movie really 124 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.600 like as much of a visual experience but an auditory 125 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:35.240 one where you get really sucked into the sound design, 126 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.919 the ambient stuff, and even just everything involving what the 127 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:42.440 sampler does is very like Barbarian sound studio or Blowout 128 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:45.000 to some extent. I eat that stuff up as somebody 129 00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:49.480 who really loves sound design. Everything you're saying is I 130 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:53.559 completely echo and still love this movie. But I read 131 00:08:53.720 --> 00:08:58.559 some interesting articles in light of Caruth as a person, 132 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:03.559 and I don't want to lean into this too heavily, 133 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:06.799 because again, we have to separate the art from the artists, right, 134 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:08.960 I mean, that's just the nature of the beast when 135 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.600 you want to analyze a work of art. But at 136 00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:13.360 the same time, there's a part of me that wonders, 137 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:19.200 whether consciously or not, if Caruth made this film about 138 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:23.840 like leverage and power and inflicting psychological trauma as a 139 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.919 window or a mirror of his own tendencies. Now that's 140 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:32.879 just like me hypothesizing. But at the same time, I 141 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:36.080 can't help but think of how people are saying these days, well, 142 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:39.519 instead of going to therapy, men do this, well instead 143 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:43.240 of going to therapy. Maybe Caruth created this work of 144 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.759 art as his outlet in a way. But again, like, 145 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.799 that's just something that would never have occurred to me 146 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:53.320 early on with early viewings. Now it's just something I'm 147 00:09:53.399 --> 00:09:57.360 thinking about without it overwhelming me to the point of like, well, 148 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:00.440 I can't love this movie anymore because of learning about 149 00:10:00.480 --> 00:10:03.600 what has done as a person. That's just something I 150 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:04.759 wrestle with a little bit. 151 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:05.000 Now. 152 00:10:05.840 --> 00:10:08.840 In the case of this film, denying the connections to 153 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:13.559 Cruth's own behavior and his choices is to deny the 154 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:17.799 way that upstream for color functions, that the film itself 155 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:21.559 is built upon the significance of these parallels and connections 156 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:26.600 between diverse aspects of existence in life, and so it's 157 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:29.840 almost like you're just like cutting out, like there is 158 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:33.320 no disconnecting it, because that the whole film is connections, 159 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:36.759 which is kind of like chin, yeah, just he did 160 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:40.039 too amazing a job that he like that to curse 161 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:43.320 his own film, that I can't separate it, and I 162 00:10:43.360 --> 00:10:46.840 think it is important the same way that the Sampler 163 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.759 is both like seemingly a good person and a bad person, 164 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:54.360 that the film is juggling a lot of these things 165 00:10:54.440 --> 00:11:00.000 without necessarily praising or damning, and because of the parallel 166 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:02.840 and connections, because he is so essential to it that 167 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:05.960 it has to be part of it. You can't think 168 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:08.840 of many films that I would describe as holistic filmmaking. 169 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:12.120 That it's definitely because Curate is so essential to so 170 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:17.600 many artistic and technical aspects that it does feel holistic, 171 00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:20.559 that every part is important and essential. 172 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:23.759 And an extension of him too as a person. He 173 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:29.039 injects his previous film a topiary that didn't come to fruition. 174 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.240 He injects that in there, having Chris work on that 175 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.360 as like an effects supervisor or producer. It looks like 176 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:41.039 having Chrispy played by any Amy Steinmitz, who's his significant 177 00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:43.679 other at the time, having him in there and having 178 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:46.759 him as Jeff Jeff's pretty much a jerk. 179 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:49.799 Oh yeah, he's a terrible person. 180 00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:52.519 I'm just like, yeah, how much are you holding this 181 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.759 mirror up to yourself as you're doing this, because so 182 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:58.120 much of this feels like such a personal extension to have. Also, 183 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:01.200 like you said, to have the stamp there. He is 184 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.960 creating music, and he's creating the music that we hear 185 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.879 in the film, which is pretty amazing as well. I 186 00:12:06.960 --> 00:12:10.600 mean the montage of him creating these sounds and using 187 00:12:10.679 --> 00:12:14.399 these sounds to form a song from that, and that 188 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.360 we're hearing all of that being created at the same time. 189 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.039 And then just the reliving of things, you know, I mean, 190 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:23.720 the whole movie is about reliving trauma. I mean, this 191 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.360 is he showing us a cycle at some point inside 192 00:12:27.399 --> 00:12:29.480 of his own life or is this just kind of, 193 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:34.240 you know, an extension as far as like, this is 194 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.879 what trauma does? I have this trauma, maybe not knowing 195 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:40.759 that he's expressing that trauma through abusive behavior. 196 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.519 Yeah, there's a Q and A. He gives it. The 197 00:12:43.960 --> 00:12:47.799 Vivian subject talks about in her film comment article where 198 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:50.600 he was asked what is this about? And he said, 199 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:53.559 I don't know, and I was like, yeah, I probably 200 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:55.679 I would say, based on the little bit that we 201 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:58.279 know that, yeah, he doesn't know that, he doesn't have 202 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:00.960 He wasn't at a point where he was able to 203 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:06.559 recognize how much you can watch this film with a 204 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:12.000 lens of knowing the allegations of domestic violence and see 205 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:16.840 how much it's fair. How difficult it is to watch 206 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.360 in places because it feels like so much of a controlling, 207 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:24.720 not okay person exerting a lot of influence and power. 208 00:13:25.639 --> 00:13:31.279 But the film is also querying that and attacking that 209 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:37.840 in other ways, not necessarily through himself, but through the thief. 210 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:41.879 It's always difficult to psychoanalyze a person in the film 211 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:45.320 because you don't have everything that you may need to 212 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.919 do that fully that it does feel like it's somebody 213 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:52.440 breaking apart all the parts of their personality and putting 214 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:55.960 them into different sections. And the reason why Upstream Color 215 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.679 works so well still is because those parts also connect 216 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:06.480 really powerfully to the biggest social and political sphere of 217 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:11.080 how systems function to control us and direct us and 218 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.679 take away our power, and so it becomes this really complex, 219 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:20.879 multilayered parable that I said that I loved this back 220 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:23.279 in the day, I don't remember much of what I 221 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:26.000 felt or thought about it, But returning to it now, 222 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.679 I had a lot more of a complicated experience. And 223 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:32.200 I think after watching it the second time ever last 224 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:36.440 week I didn't like it, and then digging into some 225 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:41.440 reading materials and ruminating on it, I didn't rewatch it 226 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:45.000 again at first. For a third time, I actually put 227 00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:48.799 it on Vincent Bluetooth headphones and went outside and collected 228 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:51.279 wood for the fire. It's the only thing we have 229 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:55.000 for eating is a fireplace. And it was a very 230 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:58.679 powerful experience to experience it like that, just listening to 231 00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.440 the sounds and the dialogue and the movement of it 232 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:05.200 and feeling it while I did actions like occur in 233 00:15:05.320 --> 00:15:05.759 the film. 234 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.679 I was going to say, you're you David there right there, 235 00:15:08.919 --> 00:15:10.399 I'm just going to say that too, yeah. 236 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:15.039 Yeah, And that did sort of like fift out some 237 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.720 of the things which I were probably having more difficulty with, 238 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.759 and it was like again made me be turned to 239 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:22.840 it as this holistic thing, which even though it is 240 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:27.840 all the parts are so important, they are all yeah, moving, 241 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:33.080 and it's okay to like not sit with them sometimes 242 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:37.159 and sit with other parts. And then I rewatched it 243 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.159 a third time, actually watching it, and again it sort 244 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.440 of came and went with how I feel about it. 245 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.240 But it was like it felt like reading reading through 246 00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:49.559 some of the things that people have written about it, 247 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:55.679 every theory and casual viewers like watching the third time 248 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.360 was popularly the third time was like felt like running 249 00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:03.879 my fingers through soil and like feeling all the parts 250 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.600 of the soil and the bits of matter decaying or 251 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:09.960 stares and things, and like getting ready to plant something 252 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:15.279 like the film feels like fertile soil. And I don't 253 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.320 know still how I feel about it now, but I 254 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:20.440 love how much has grown out of it. 255 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.360 Yeah, I completely echo what you're saying in terms of 256 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:27.519 having a complicated relationship with it, while also acknowledging the 257 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.720 fact that I still feel deep down that it is 258 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:38.559 a great work of art, and watching it again and 259 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:44.799 reading something like a research paper that Anna Maria Greisbawska 260 00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:50.360 wrote called Invisible Cuts, where she basically says that this 261 00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:54.159 film makes a spectacle out of a woman's psychological degradation, 262 00:16:55.039 --> 00:17:00.480 and it's really critical of Kruth as a story teller. 263 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:04.559 And I struggled with watching Jeff, like you mentioned Mike too. 264 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:06.880 He is kind of a jerk, and I think part 265 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:10.240 of me is of course projecting, well, that's Shane Caruth. 266 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.319 And what do I know about Shane Caruth? He was 267 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.680 an abusive asshole, so when he was on screen, that's 268 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:19.559 probably when I struggled the most. I love everything about 269 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.200 this movie. I mean, the thief himself is responsible for 270 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:28.440 stripping away someone's agency and autonomy. And even the way 271 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:31.079 Jeff interacts with Chris at times it does feel like, 272 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:36.279 oh yeah, he's kind of psychologically dominating her, or at 273 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.680 the very least, especially when they're first having conversations, he 274 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.759 does come across as very cold and calculated, like when 275 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.519 she's trying to be open with him at the coffee 276 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:47.960 shop by like showing these are the medications I'm taking. 277 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:52.519 He outright like blocks that out with a menu or something, 278 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.799 and he just comes across as lacking kindness towards her. 279 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:00.440 That made me go, uh, how did they develop a 280 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:06.319 romantic connection here? Outside of they have an attraction based 281 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:09.480 on the fact that probably they're connected without knowing why, 282 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:11.200 they've both experienced the same trauma. 283 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.440 But how much is that them falling in love versus 284 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:16.680 their pigs falling in love. 285 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:18.680 Yeah, that's a good point. 286 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.720 We dove immediately into Caruth and I want to talk 287 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:25.960 a little bit more as far as just the way again, 288 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:27.759 talk a little bit as far as the way the 289 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:31.640 film is put together. The traumatic incident that happens with 290 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:35.160 Chris happens very early in the film, which I forgot 291 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.000 about the first time, and when I went back to 292 00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:39.519 watch it, I was like, oh, Okay, yeah, this happens 293 00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:44.519 really early on. And that thing where she's abducted. She 294 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:50.559 drives the thief to her house and he systematically, like 295 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:54.279 you said, strips her of everything, breaks her down completely. 296 00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:57.000 He doesn't let her sleep, he doesn't let her eat. 297 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:01.519 He just has her drink water, has her write out 298 00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:06.119 pages from Walden and make chains with them, paper chains. 299 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:08.839 And I love the idea of the paper chains, especially 300 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.319 because this whole thing is about these chains that are 301 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.640 being formed, the whole cycle of the flower to the worm, 302 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.920 to all this. I'll talk more a little bit about 303 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.920 eggs later on. But this whole idea of like her 304 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:25.759 being broken down so much. This movie is a horror 305 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.960 movie for a good fifteen minutes. I call it a 306 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.759 science fiction movie, and I think the science fiction and 307 00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:34.319 some people actually chaf about that because it's like, oh, 308 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:38.079 there's no robots or ray guns or anything. I'm like, no, 309 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.000 anything that is unexplainable. It's that old whose line was 310 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.160 it as far as like, if it's not explainable, it 311 00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:47.279 could be magic or science for me, And like the 312 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:51.440 science of this movie, it's like, sure, there's probably a 313 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:54.440 toad that you lick, or a bug that you adjest, 314 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:57.400 or something that makes you so susceptible. I mean, it's 315 00:19:57.440 --> 00:19:59.680 the old stories of voodoo in the old days, where 316 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.200 it's like, no, voodoo wasn't bringing people back from the dead. 317 00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:05.960 It was making people mindless slaves, the same stuff that 318 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:08.680 Jeffrey Dahmer was looking to try to do. He wanted 319 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:11.519 to turn people into mindless slaves. The thief can do it. 320 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:14.079 He's found that way. He could have fun with the 321 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:18.359 neighborhood boys in a very very groomy scene. To me, 322 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:22.200 I mean those neighborhood boys. Feels like he's got more 323 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:24.799 going on with them, especially if he can control their 324 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:27.000 minds the way that he doesn't. I don't know if 325 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.279 he literally has sex with Chris, if he rapes Chris. 326 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:33.880 But all of the stuff that happens with Chris is 327 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:38.000 a rape. It is a long, prolonged rape of taking 328 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:42.960 everything from her, every single thing, and especially the money. 329 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:45.759 And you know, I mean, twenty thirteen was a rough time. 330 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:49.640 Twenty twenty five, you don't have that money in the bank, man, 331 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.279 you are just about to be absolutely homeless. You know, 332 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.799 you miss one, like one card payment comes in extra, 333 00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:00.240 You're ruined for your entire life. I can't imagine what 334 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.599 she's going through, the ruination of her whole thing. I 335 00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:05.240 read the script of this, and I found it to 336 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:07.519 be interesting some of the differences between the script and 337 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:10.680 the movie, because I believe her sister is a character 338 00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:17.079 in the script and is completely blown away by Chris 339 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:20.960 selling the coin collection, getting all the money out of 340 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:24.079 her account, putting in that home equity alone, all that stuff, 341 00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.799 And of course she blames Chris. She just tries to 342 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.000 guilt her. I can't believe that you did this. Everybody's 343 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:33.319 going to be so disappointed. And then also that the 344 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:36.039 thief uses her family against her, Like that's the way 345 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:39.039 that he gets the money, is saying, your mother's been kidnapped. 346 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.920 They're going to brutalize her, and what can she do 347 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.920 and just immediately starts thinking of ways that she can 348 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:49.119 get money to these kidnappers. I mean, this whole sequence 349 00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:52.720 of her in this house, forget the worms, forget any 350 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.240 of that stuff. That is a horror movie for me, 351 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:57.359 for a good solid chunk of it. 352 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:01.640 Yeah, And it opens with that amazing crash thunder as 353 00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:03.880 he opened he had in the scene where she's in 354 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.480 a cafe or a restaurant and there's a nice verbling 355 00:22:06.599 --> 00:22:10.039 murmur of social sounds and then just suddenly they crash 356 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.680 of thunder. It cuts to the door and being dragged 357 00:22:12.720 --> 00:22:14.880 out like she's already dead with the raid and everything. 358 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:17.079 Like when I was listening to that without looking at 359 00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:19.200 the visuals that it didn't make me jump a little bit. 360 00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:24.160 It is just immediately shifts modes and that whole sequence. 361 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:28.839 It can be interpreted in so many ways. That's kind 362 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:31.119 of the part that I came back to the most 363 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:35.640 for like digging into ways of thinking about it that 364 00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:37.799 what he does has her doing reminds me a lot 365 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:43.599 of how cult leaders will have people doing menial, mindless 366 00:22:43.720 --> 00:22:46.079 tasks and singing songs and doing all these kind of 367 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:49.559 things so that they absorb all of their free energy 368 00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:52.599 and free thinking time and just drain them so that 369 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.359 they can't think for themselves or do anything other than 370 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:57.599 what the cult demands. 371 00:22:58.519 --> 00:23:02.319 Starting now, and not to play. If you blink, we 372 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:09.279 go back to the start. Infringement. You blinked. Starting now, 373 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:12.039 you're not to blink. If you blink, we go back 374 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:16.000 to the start. Do you often think about how inconsequential 375 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.640 you are? Do you believe that God will save you 376 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.559 from your own ridiculousness? Have you ever had intercourse with 377 00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:24.759 someone inside your family? 378 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.119 Yes? 379 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:29.839 Have you ever had intercourse with someone inside your family? 380 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:30.160 Yes? 381 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:32.720 Auntie? Have you killed anyone? 382 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:33.200 No? 383 00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:34.839 Maybe not me? 384 00:23:35.119 --> 00:23:38.200 Have you killed anyone? How many times do you have 385 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:39.160 intercourse with your aunt? 386 00:23:39.319 --> 00:23:39.960 Three times? 387 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:40.799 Where's your aunt? 388 00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:41.000 Now? 389 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:43.119 Would you like to have intercourse with there? 390 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:43.400 Again? 391 00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:45.519 Do you regret this? 392 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:47.599 No? 393 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.279 But it also reflects on a you know, at a 394 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:57.240 grander scale, how we are indoctrinated by systems of control 395 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:01.720 and power in schools and parents, in peer groups, to 396 00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:06.279 be specific, ways, and how the idea that maybe you 397 00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:09.400 don't ever actually choose your life, that you get slotted 398 00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:13.160 into these paths and spend you know, you wake up 399 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:17.079 twenty years later and you in a horrible marriage and 400 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.039 a terrible job, and you don't feel like you've lived 401 00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:24.920