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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome to the Sociology Show podcast. My guest

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<v Speaker 1>for this episode is Dr Jennifer Fleetwood talking about her

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<v Speaker 1>book What we talk About When we talk about Crime.

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<v Speaker 1>Before you listen to this, you might want to have

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<v Speaker 1>a look at some of the case studies that Jennifer

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<v Speaker 1>talks about. So her book covers seven famous case studies.

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<v Speaker 1>Some of these people you will have heard of, but

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<v Speaker 1>if you haven't, you might want to go and look

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<v Speaker 1>them up find out a little bit about them before

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<v Speaker 1>you listen to the episode. So, these seven different case

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<v Speaker 1>studies that Jennifer covers in her books are about Howard Marx,

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<v Speaker 1>Shemima begam Mo, Farrah Prince, Andrew Chanelle Miller, The Criminal Podcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and Myra Hindley. So if you do want to do

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of googling, have a look at some

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<v Speaker 1>of those case studies. If you're not sure who they

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<v Speaker 1>are or aware of their case study at all, have

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<v Speaker 1>a quick look at those before you have a listen

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<v Speaker 1>to the episode. And so, without further ado, let's go

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<v Speaker 1>over to the episode with Dr Jennifer Fleetwood. Hi, you're

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<v Speaker 1>listening to The Sociology Show, a podcast about absolutely anything

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<v Speaker 1>to do with the wonderful world of sociology. Whether you're

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<v Speaker 1>a teacher, a lecturer, a student, or just taking a

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<v Speaker 1>passing interest, This podcast will look at a range of

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<v Speaker 1>issues from social class, ethnicity, gender, sexuality, religion, crime, education,

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<v Speaker 1>and anything else that sociology has to offer. My name

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<v Speaker 1>is Matthew Wilkin. In each episode, I will speak to

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<v Speaker 1>someone working in the field of sociology and let them

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<v Speaker 1>explain all about their own interests, their research, and their experiences.

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<v Speaker 1>So put your ear botes in, turn the volume up,

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<v Speaker 1>and let's be sociology geeks together. H Hello, and welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to the Sociology Show podcast. Would you like to start

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<v Speaker 1>by telling us a little bit about who you are

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<v Speaker 1>and what you do?

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<v Speaker 2>Please, Good afternoon, Matthew. I'm Jennifer Fleetwood. I'm a senior

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<v Speaker 2>lecturer in criminology at the University of Greenwich, sociologist and

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<v Speaker 2>a criminologist and interested in stories, especially.

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<v Speaker 3>Where they relate to crime.

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<v Speaker 2>And I'm also interested in things around women in drugs,

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<v Speaker 2>so I guess a mix of different things that keep

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<v Speaker 2>me busy.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, and your previous book. We're going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about that nine books that your previous book was Drug

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<v Speaker 1>Mules wasn't it Women in the international co kind trade? Fascinting? Now,

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<v Speaker 1>do you want tell us a little bit about that

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<v Speaker 1>before we move on to your new book.

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<v Speaker 3>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>So the Drug Mules book came out from my PhD,

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<v Speaker 2>and it took it took me a long time to write.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's this idea that as academics we can

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<v Speaker 2>just bash at.

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<v Speaker 3>A book quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>But maybe some people can, but for me, definitely not.

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<v Speaker 2>And that book was based on a chunk of ethnographic

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<v Speaker 2>research in prisons and Ecuador, so I would visit people

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<v Speaker 2>in prison. There were lots and lots of people there

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<v Speaker 2>incarcerated for drug trafficking offenses. And my PhD was really

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<v Speaker 2>specifically women. Kind of grew out of my interest in

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<v Speaker 2>gender actually as a student of sociology, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>interested in how and whether gender mattered in the drug trade.

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<v Speaker 3>So it turned into.

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<v Speaker 2>A book about drug trafficking and how people got involved.

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<v Speaker 2>But one of the things that I was so struck by,

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<v Speaker 2>actually with spending time in men's and women's prisons was

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<v Speaker 2>how differently they were able to speak about their.

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<v Speaker 3>Involvement in the drug trade. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So in the women's prison, I was told everyone here

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<v Speaker 2>is a drug MUO, nobody knows anything, whereas in the

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<v Speaker 2>men's prison, I was told everybody here seemed to claim

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<v Speaker 2>to be some sort of a boss or an authority,

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<v Speaker 2>or they had something to teach me. And I just thought,

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<v Speaker 2>it can't be that stark that women don't know anything

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<v Speaker 2>and men know everything. So I was kind of interested

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<v Speaker 2>in probing how and why women found it so difficult

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about crime and men seemed to find it

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<v Speaker 2>so easy to claim expertise. So that book, I guess,

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<v Speaker 2>is where my interest in stories and talk about crime

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<v Speaker 2>first developed. But it's also a story about how people

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<v Speaker 2>get involved in the drug trade and what they do

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<v Speaker 2>and how that's shaped by their gender in particular.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, and so you're really interesting stories. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>before we get into a new but what's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>your methodology?

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<v Speaker 2>Then?

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<v Speaker 1>Do you do a lot of unstructured interviews?

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<v Speaker 2>So for the Drug Trafficking book, the method was really

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<v Speaker 2>just trying to eke out time to allow people to

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<v Speaker 2>tell a story, which sounds like quite a straightforward thing,

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<v Speaker 2>Like you know, you may be thinking, we just whack on,

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<v Speaker 2>whack out the tape recorder, ask a couple of questions

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<v Speaker 2>and bosh, off we go, but actually in the women's prison,

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<v Speaker 2>there was a real challenge in getting women to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about drug trafficking. So for me, there was a long

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<v Speaker 2>time of that kind of ethnographic immersion of getting to

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<v Speaker 2>know people, of getting their trust, and allowing them to

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<v Speaker 2>tell different kinds of stories about themselves.

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<v Speaker 3>So I might go in looking for.

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<v Speaker 2>An interview about drug traffcking, but often they wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about other things too, So there was a long

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<v Speaker 2>process of really making time and space to listen to

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<v Speaker 2>this stories that were important to them, and also making

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<v Speaker 2>space so that they could kind of talk without judgment

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<v Speaker 2>about their involvement in the drug trade in ways that

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<v Speaker 2>were a little bit messy sometimes. I mean maybe messy

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<v Speaker 2>is the wrong word, but for women, there wasn't much

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<v Speaker 2>kind of social space, I guess, for them to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about their involvement in the drug business and anything other

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<v Speaker 2>than kind of talking about regret and shame. And I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to collect those stories because they're true and important,

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<v Speaker 2>but I also wanted to allow space for maybe people

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<v Speaker 2>to tell other kinds of stories about moments of pride

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<v Speaker 2>actually or exhilaration or joy, or nervousness or anxiety or contradiction.

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<v Speaker 2>So I guess that project was ethnographic and it was

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<v Speaker 2>also about unstructured interviews. So the question I would always

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<v Speaker 2>start with was tell me how you got here, which

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<v Speaker 2>isn't a question about crime at all. Actually, it's really

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<v Speaker 2>a question about inviting people to talk about biography and

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<v Speaker 2>theirselves and to kind of foreground the stories they thought

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<v Speaker 2>were important.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it's also a question that allows people to

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<v Speaker 3>start the.

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<v Speaker 2>Story and end it where they want to, which I

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<v Speaker 2>think is really fun. Shall I talk about the methodology

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<v Speaker 2>for the current book as well?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean that would be great. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>I've just introduced the current book and what we talk

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<v Speaker 1>about when we talk about crime, So yeah, go for it.

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer tell us about that one.

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<v Speaker 2>So the current book's a bit different in that I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't meet any of the people whose stories I'm looking at.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think there's something important about putting stories in context.

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<v Speaker 3>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So, in the same way that I was interested in

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<v Speaker 2>how the prison as institution and gender as another kind

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<v Speaker 2>of institution shape people's stories, I wanted to try and

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<v Speaker 2>read people's stories in context. So in the book, what

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<v Speaker 2>we talk about when we talk about crime, we're looking

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<v Speaker 2>at at examples of well known personal stories about crime

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<v Speaker 2>in public. My editor was really keen that they'd be

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<v Speaker 2>well known ones to catch people's attention.

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<v Speaker 3>But it looks at things.

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<v Speaker 2>Like criminal biography, Howard Marx's book Mister Nice, Shamima Beggham's

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<v Speaker 2>Times Interview, more far and made a documentary with the

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<v Speaker 2>BBC about his experience of human trafficking. I also looked

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<v Speaker 2>at Prince Andrew's News and Night interview, and there's a

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<v Speaker 2>few more after that. There's also a chapter looking at

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<v Speaker 2>some of my Rhindley's writing. So what I would do

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<v Speaker 2>is sit down with the story as I would much

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<v Speaker 2>with an interview, and kind of read it really carefully

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<v Speaker 2>and attentively. And Catherine color Reisman in her book about

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<v Speaker 2>narrative analysis, she gives us one question, which is why

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<v Speaker 2>was the story told that way? And it's such a

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<v Speaker 2>lovely open way of doing analysis, of kind of interpreting,

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<v Speaker 2>and then to kind of flesh out the stuff about context.

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<v Speaker 2>I just read around stories as much as I could,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is the joy I think of using well

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<v Speaker 2>known examples is that there's so much available, especially online.

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<v Speaker 2>So for example, for Shamima Begam's Times Interview, Andrew Lloyd.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm now questioning whether I've got his name right, but

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<v Speaker 2>I think I have. Andrew Lloyd did. He did interviews

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<v Speaker 2>with GQ magazine, He took part in podcasts. He wrote

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<v Speaker 2>his own story for The Times about quote unquote finding Shamima.

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<v Speaker 2>So there was loads of background information as well as

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<v Speaker 2>reports produced by non governmental organizations, but the conditions in

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<v Speaker 2>the camps. There was subsequent interviews with Shmima Begam. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's just taking that interview as the kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>central point, I guess, and then fleshing out all the

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<v Speaker 2>way around it kind of the context for the stories

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<v Speaker 2>as much as could be known, and that took a

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<v Speaker 2>different form I think for each of those different kinds

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<v Speaker 2>of stories. So for the Myra Hindley chapter involved lots

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<v Speaker 2>of digging deeply in prison regulations actually, which was unexpected.

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<v Speaker 1>Was that difficult in terms of the validity of some

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<v Speaker 1>of the sources, you know, what you had to wade

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<v Speaker 1>through to get to the the accurate stuff, if you like.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a really it's a really interesting question because I

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<v Speaker 2>think when we think about narrative, there's a tendency to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of bracket off reality almost because we tend to

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<v Speaker 2>focus on how stories make meanings of that reality. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think you just kind of need to take everything

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<v Speaker 2>in context a little bit. I mean, when non governmental

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<v Speaker 2>organizations like say the Children are producing a report, they're

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<v Speaker 2>producing it with kind of particular aims in mind, which

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<v Speaker 2>are you know, to do with campaigning and other things

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<v Speaker 2>and fundraising perhaps as well and as also kind of

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<v Speaker 2>justifying the work that they do as an important NGO.

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<v Speaker 2>But it also offers these little glimpses of what life

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<v Speaker 2>is like in the camp that just to help me

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<v Speaker 2>kind of flesh things out a little bit more so,

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<v Speaker 2>I think questions about validity.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I struggle with this a little bit. I know that

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<v Speaker 2>it's a key I and sociology, But when I think

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to personal stories, we don't just we

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<v Speaker 2>don't just lie or make things up most of the time,

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's I guess I'd say there's always a

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<v Speaker 2>kind of knob of truth there if we look for it,

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<v Speaker 2>and as long as we're taking it in context and

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<v Speaker 2>reading carefully and thinking about what does it really say,

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<v Speaker 2>what's it really about?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know. I guess I struggle with validity.

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<v Speaker 2>It does my head it's difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a mindfield, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 3>Really? It really really is.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I mean the sort of basic principle of

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<v Speaker 1>what you're talking about across the seven cases that you've

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned is that in all of these cases that the

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<v Speaker 1>people have gone public, they're telling their story, Whereas once

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<v Speaker 1>upon a time this wasn't necessarily the case. A lot

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<v Speaker 1>of a criminal activity was sort of part of the

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<v Speaker 1>underworld or was not discussed or is not mainstream. So

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<v Speaker 1>what kind of ideas did you undercover in terms of

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<v Speaker 1>why people are much more willing to get their story

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<v Speaker 1>out there than they would have been the past.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think for me that's the real question behind

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<v Speaker 2>the book. I think one I hope to explore by

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<v Speaker 2>looking at these different case studies was a sense of

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<v Speaker 2>how do we get here? How are the how do

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<v Speaker 2>these stories come to be told? And I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>not really one answer that's such as sociological kind of

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<v Speaker 2>stereotypically sociological answer, isn't there like, well, there's not one answer.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's loads of drivers in play, I think, and

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<v Speaker 2>some of them are super recent and short, and some

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<v Speaker 2>of them have these kind of super long historical roots.

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<v Speaker 2>I think one of the most recent is probably to

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<v Speaker 2>do with things like social media and podcasts that just

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<v Speaker 2>do this thing of making space for personal stories to

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<v Speaker 2>be told at length in a way that I can't

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<v Speaker 2>imagine them being told on other media. So I think,

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<v Speaker 2>is it Sean Atwood? He has a podcast where he

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<v Speaker 2>interviews lots of criminals of repute, usually after they've done time,

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<v Speaker 2>like East End gangsters and so on. But those interviews

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<v Speaker 2>can last like three hours and they're really long, and

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<v Speaker 2>they're really in depth, and I can't think of any

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<v Speaker 2>other media where those kinds of stories would be told.

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<v Speaker 2>And the other thing with social media is that it

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<v Speaker 2>has this way of finding kind of niche audiences for things,

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<v Speaker 2>So it produces audiences and it produces kind of space.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I think there's also something to do with

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<v Speaker 2>changes in criminal justice and the ways that tech personal

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<v Speaker 2>testimony has heard, and I think that particularly applies to

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<v Speaker 2>victim stories. And I read this beautiful book called The

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<v Speaker 2>Era of the Witness by a French philosopher historian called

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<v Speaker 2>Via Vorca.

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<v Speaker 3>That it's beautiful.

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<v Speaker 2>She describes the ways that testimony in World War Two

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<v Speaker 2>by people in ghettos, people experiencing the Holocaust was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of written and shared in these really limited ways because

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<v Speaker 2>for people who survived the Holocaust, there was this huge

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<v Speaker 2>amount of shame attached to it. Actually, so these stories

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<v Speaker 2>that now we think of it is like, well, they're

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<v Speaker 2>so well known, they're taught that we have, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>world Holocaust and other things. And she draws out the

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<v Speaker 2>ways that the Eichmann trial produced a platform for these testamenties,

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<v Speaker 2>these personal stories that previously had this kind of shame

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<v Speaker 2>attached them, and they've been told only amongst these small circles,

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<v Speaker 2>and that kind of sends out ripples in criminal justice.

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<v Speaker 2>And then in the eighties we see the introduction of

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<v Speaker 2>victim personal statements or victim impact statements as they're sometimes known.

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<v Speaker 2>And one of the chapters looks at our famous example

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<v Speaker 2>of that a woman who it was published at the

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<v Speaker 2>time on Buzzbeed actually where she was Emily Doe, I think,

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<v Speaker 2>and she's now come out publicly her name is Janelle Miller,

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<v Speaker 2>and she's written her own autobiography about how that story

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<v Speaker 2>was told. So there's these things in media. There's something

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<v Speaker 2>to do with criminal justice. I think there's something also

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<v Speaker 2>in the air about therapy. So over the course of decades,

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<v Speaker 2>we've kind of seen a therapy kind of going mainstream.

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<v Speaker 2>So the idea that talk is good, or talk is

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<v Speaker 2>a way to healing or justice has kind of become mainstream.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think often people look to tell a story

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<v Speaker 2>when an injustice has been done in the hope that

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<v Speaker 2>it will kind of reveal that injustice, maybe gain public

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<v Speaker 2>sympathy or empathy, or produce some kind of change, either

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<v Speaker 2>in society at large or in the particulars of their case.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's different things.

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<v Speaker 2>In the air I think to do with sort of technology, culture,

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<v Speaker 2>justice institutions, and all of those are in play.

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<v Speaker 3>I think.

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<v Speaker 4>Sociology Show podcast relies on the kind contributions of sponsorship

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<v Speaker 4>and donations. If you enjoy the show, then you can

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<v Speaker 4>continued support.

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<v Speaker 1>Of the show. So I was just looking at, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>of just seven different case studies that you did. I

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<v Speaker 1>can totally understand the sort of cathartic way in which

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<v Speaker 1>sharing stories such as Chanelle Miller who just mentioned, or

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<v Speaker 1>maybe the mo Fara story on ones such as Howard Marx,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, on that one, is there something slightly different

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<v Speaker 1>going on there? This is going to sound really pessimistic,

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<v Speaker 1>but is it an opportunity for fame? It's what I'm

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<v Speaker 1>trying to get that.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yes, So I love I love writing the chapter

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<v Speaker 2>on Howard Marx because it's such a contrast to the rest.

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<v Speaker 2>But me is such an important example in that criminal

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<v Speaker 2>memoir genre. It kind of sticks out against the ones

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<v Speaker 2>that had come before it, and I think for people

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<v Speaker 2>of my age, it had this kind of cult status.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone was reading. It was everyone's bookshelves. Howard Marx was

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<v Speaker 2>invited to speak at Glastonbury and so what, Yes, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's the short answer. It is about kind of

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<v Speaker 2>something to do with fame and notoriety. So whereas autobiographies,

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<v Speaker 2>criminal autobiographies and memoir before that had been about remorse,

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00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Howard Marx's autobiography is really celebrating his identity as an outlaw,

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<v Speaker 2>and it kind of fits with the counter culture of

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen nineties, kind of geezer chic.

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<v Speaker 3>Think about Guy.

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<v Speaker 2>Ritchie's films like Lockstock, Two Smoking Barrels. There's a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a glamorization of counter culture and of badness that.

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<v Speaker 3>He played on really successfully.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think keep in mind also that he was

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<v Speaker 2>a graduate of Oxford, so he has this kind of

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<v Speaker 2>status that's all that kind of working class masculinity, but

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<v Speaker 2>not of it that allows him to be this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of gentleman outlaw.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I've got to ask about the Prince Andrew Well,

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<v Speaker 1>was that one about a lot of people said the

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<v Speaker 1>time is why is he doing this? I mean that

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<v Speaker 1>seems the strangest of the lots to make that long.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, it is, isn't it?

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<v Speaker 2>And I think for me when I was researching around this,

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<v Speaker 2>I think his has this kind of legacy almost of

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen nineties chat show actually with than anything. If

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<v Speaker 2>you think about people like Parkinson and Oprah, these kinds

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<v Speaker 2>of interviews are about that kind of revealing of one's

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<v Speaker 2>innermost self and a search front sort of self understanding

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<v Speaker 2>through talking. So that idea through therapy finds its home

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<v Speaker 2>in Rickard Lake and Oprah Winfrey.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think it's maybe.

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<v Speaker 2>Useful to read Prince Andrew against the Princess Diana interview

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<v Speaker 2>panorama that she did, where she was able to was

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<v Speaker 2>kind of backed into a corner, I guess, but she

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<v Speaker 2>was able to give this really endearing interview where she

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<v Speaker 2>was very honest and she revealed this kind of inner difficulty,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's not about how she's a great princess or

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<v Speaker 2>a kind of a public speaking role. It has this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of confessional, intimate feeling that kind of gained her

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<v Speaker 2>this title of the Queen of Hearts. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>maybe Prince Andrew thought that if he would talk about things,

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<v Speaker 2>if he would be honest and open and intimate, that

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<v Speaker 2>people would come to understand him. And it kind of

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<v Speaker 2>spectacularly backfires on him, which you know, I think as

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<v Speaker 2>anyone who's seen that interview will know. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>he thought that people would come to understand him, and.

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<v Speaker 3>It really fails.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually, I think in part because of the way that

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<v Speaker 2>he talks about Epstein's victims and his failure to acknowledge them.

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<v Speaker 2>His kind of repeated denials saying well, I didn't see anything,

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<v Speaker 2>I never met this woman, I don't know anything, and

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of had this undermining impact.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think he almost.

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<v Speaker 2>Wanted us to see him as a victim of a circumstance,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think people just didn't.

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<v Speaker 3>They just refused to.

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<v Speaker 2>I think they understood him properly, somebody who was quite

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<v Speaker 2>powerful actually, and had the power to change things had

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted to. So this is the chapter that allows

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<v Speaker 2>me to go back and use some sociological theory, and

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<v Speaker 2>it's Scott A. Lineman's work on accounts, and they talk

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<v Speaker 2>about the ways that talk isn't just a kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a decoration on the social fabric, but it's deeply part

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<v Speaker 2>of it. And they talk about the ways that when

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<v Speaker 2>our behavior doesn't match expectations, we can fix that by

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<v Speaker 2>producing a good account. And I think Prince Andrew's account

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<v Speaker 2>was a really bad one because he failed to He

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<v Speaker 2>failed to kind of get up an apology in a

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<v Speaker 2>language that had any cultural resonance. So he talks, he

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<v Speaker 2>talks repeatedly about being honorable, and I think it's just

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<v Speaker 2>an idea that didn't resonate at all.

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<v Speaker 3>It just was so obvious that if.

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<v Speaker 2>He was someone who was who was honorable, who had

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<v Speaker 2>so much honor, that he might have acted differently.

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<v Speaker 3>I would say, And.

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<v Speaker 1>That one you know that kind of failed spectacularly in

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<v Speaker 1>trying to get the public to see them as a victim.

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<v Speaker 1>But that is an underlining theme about a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the cases, isn't it. That is that sort of the intention,

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<v Speaker 1>even if it's subconscious, for the public to feel empathy

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<v Speaker 1>for the individual.

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<v Speaker 2>I think so, yes. I mean I'm thinking about Amyra

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<v Speaker 2>Hindley's writing, for example, I mean the time that she

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<v Speaker 2>was writing her autobiography, she's writing in prison, so she's

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<v Speaker 2>writing this autobiography in letters, so it exists in these

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00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:33.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of fragments, and I was able to get access

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00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.279
<v Speaker 2>to just one of those letters. But the reason that

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00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:40.079
<v Speaker 2>she comes to write about herself is that for her

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<v Speaker 2>to be released from prison, and she had served an

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<v Speaker 2>extraordinarily long amount of time in prison, really by that

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<v Speaker 2>point she needed to be able to influence public opinion

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<v Speaker 2>because at that time, to be released from prison, you

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<v Speaker 2>needed the permission of politicians, and politicians were very, very

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<v Speaker 2>very unwilling to go anywhere near Hindley because she had

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00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.079
<v Speaker 2>such toxic associations and the public hated her so much,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think for her, the explicit intention really

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<v Speaker 2>in writing was that the public would be able to

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00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.440
<v Speaker 2>understand her better would see that she had changed and

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<v Speaker 2>would release her. And I think it's I also think, like,

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00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:19.960
<v Speaker 2>could you tell a story about yourself in public where

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00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:23.279
<v Speaker 2>you didn't want to be liked? I think who would

403
00:21:23.319 --> 00:21:26.519
<v Speaker 2>have the power to tell that kind of story and

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00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:30.799
<v Speaker 2>for to not impact them? So there is something about

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00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:34.519
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they're told in public. They often have

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00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:38.519
<v Speaker 2>a kind of a campaigning aspect of them, maybe, or

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00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:42.480
<v Speaker 2>people are campaigning for some kind of sympathy or some change,

408
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<v Speaker 2>or that we change how we see them.

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<v Speaker 3>Perhaps.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think Howard Marx is the most interesting

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00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:53.480
<v Speaker 2>in that he I think didn't really have anything to

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00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.079
<v Speaker 2>gain apart from kind of the fame and notoriety that

413
00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:57.720
<v Speaker 2>followed the book. But none of that was really a

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<v Speaker 2>given at that time, I don't think. But I think

415
00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:05.039
<v Speaker 2>he was. He was probably well off enough. I'd like

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<v Speaker 2>to imagine at that point that he wasn't relying on

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<v Speaker 2>the sales of the book.

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<v Speaker 3>But I don't know. I don't know. I think there's there.

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<v Speaker 3>I think you're right.

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<v Speaker 2>I think there's something about sympathy or a call for

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<v Speaker 2>empathy that underpins that public storytelling.

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<v Speaker 1>And from the other end as well, is that we

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<v Speaker 1>as the public are obsessed with consuming such things, aren't we,

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<v Speaker 1>Whether whether it's a news story, whether it's a BBC interview,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's a Netflix documentary. You know, if you've got

426
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:34.640
<v Speaker 1>something with the word true crime in it, it is

427
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.799
<v Speaker 1>incredibly popular. So what do you think is happening at

428
00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:40.119
<v Speaker 1>the market end? Why are we so fascinated with these

429
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:40.799
<v Speaker 1>case studies?

430
00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:43.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I think true crime is such a home for

431
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:45.079
<v Speaker 2>personal stories about crime.

432
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:47.079
<v Speaker 3>It really is, And.

433
00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:51.160
<v Speaker 2>I think there's something market tee going on here in

434
00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:55.119
<v Speaker 2>that true crime often relies on producing just huge volumes

435
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:57.480
<v Speaker 2>of material. Right, if you're going to have a podcast

436
00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:00.480
<v Speaker 2>where each episode is an hour, you can fill those

437
00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:06.119
<v Speaker 2>hours quite easily with personal stories and they're quite they're

438
00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:08.680
<v Speaker 2>quite cheap actually, And this is where this is not

439
00:23:08.759 --> 00:23:12.039
<v Speaker 2>me saying that you know, podcasts are cheap in their spirit,

440
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.680
<v Speaker 2>but I think often people take part in podcasts for free,

441
00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:19.480
<v Speaker 2>without any expectation of anything compared to, for example, like

442
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:21.920
<v Speaker 2>television studios where they might invite you there, or do

443
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:26.279
<v Speaker 2>make up here, wash your clothes for you, allow you

444
00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:28.920
<v Speaker 2>to stay overnight in a hotel, where they do produce

445
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:32.119
<v Speaker 2>a lot of content very cheaply. But then I think,

446
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:38.119
<v Speaker 2>what's the public appetite for these stories, and there's something

447
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:43.319
<v Speaker 2>in personal personal stories that draws us in. There's a

448
00:23:43.359 --> 00:23:47.720
<v Speaker 2>wonderful anecdote by a man called Ira Glass, who was

449
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.000
<v Speaker 2>one of the early journalists on This American Life, which

450
00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:52.880
<v Speaker 2>I think is the model from lots of podcasts that

451
00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:57.000
<v Speaker 2>come after that. But the in this YouTube interview, he

452
00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.440
<v Speaker 2>talks about the anecdote as the story and it's pure form,

453
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.279
<v Speaker 2>and he gives this vision of you know, imagine you're

454
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.079
<v Speaker 2>standing in line in the bank and someone starts telling

455
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.240
<v Speaker 2>a story. You cannot help but tune in your ear

456
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:09.559
<v Speaker 2>to find out what happens next.

457
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:11.079
<v Speaker 3>So there's this kind of.

458
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.640
<v Speaker 2>Maybe human thing that we want to tune in, and

459
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.920
<v Speaker 2>we find these really interesting. But then I think there's

460
00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:21.559
<v Speaker 2>something else in play, which is there's this kind of

461
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.920
<v Speaker 2>perhaps declining trust in public institutions. So there was the

462
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.039
<v Speaker 2>phone hacking scandal that undermined public confidence, I think in journalism,

463
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.680
<v Speaker 2>and then we've seen numerous scandals around criminal justice. We've

464
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.960
<v Speaker 2>seen scandals at the heart of government itself, and I

465
00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:41.960
<v Speaker 2>think people often turn to these stories as something apparently

466
00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:47.000
<v Speaker 2>raw and authentic and true, where we've this kind of

467
00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:50.640
<v Speaker 2>building suspicion of official accounts.

468
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:53.799
<v Speaker 1>And if we're talking about you know, them being authentic

469
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:58.119
<v Speaker 1>and true, what do you think ultimately makes a story

470
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:01.640
<v Speaker 1>either sit with the public, lick in a sympathetic way,

471
00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:04.359
<v Speaker 1>or not. So I'm just looking at your range of

472
00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:07.279
<v Speaker 1>different seven case studies you've got here. You know you

473
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.279
<v Speaker 1>would argue I think that you know Howard Marks was lauded,

474
00:25:11.759 --> 00:25:13.640
<v Speaker 1>there was a huge amount of sympathy for the most

475
00:25:13.960 --> 00:25:18.079
<v Speaker 1>fairest story Shemaia ma begam very much mixed, possibly more

476
00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:22.039
<v Speaker 1>anti than pro. And then you know Prince Andrew very

477
00:25:22.119 --> 00:25:25.319
<v Speaker 1>much anti. So what ultimately impacts the reaction of the

478
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:28.039
<v Speaker 1>public watching or listening to the story?

479
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:30.920
<v Speaker 3>Do you think That's a really really good question.

480
00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:35.559
<v Speaker 2>And I think if it was easy to predict, I

481
00:25:35.599 --> 00:25:38.960
<v Speaker 2>think what some people wouldn't bother telling their story. I

482
00:25:38.960 --> 00:25:41.759
<v Speaker 2>think Prince Andrew being one of them. But a question

483
00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:47.359
<v Speaker 2>about what resonates, I think it's a really interesting one.

484
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:51.200
<v Speaker 2>And I think the general public is not a homogeneous group.

485
00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:56.119
<v Speaker 2>And when we think in terms of sociology, I think

486
00:25:56.119 --> 00:26:00.759
<v Speaker 2>it's always useful to think about race, class, gender, and

487
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:04.039
<v Speaker 2>I think those are written large in the public response

488
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.160
<v Speaker 2>to those kinds of stories, and that I think some

489
00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.559
<v Speaker 2>people already had the public's yere before they start speaking, right,

490
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:19.319
<v Speaker 2>Whereas I think, for example, Shumima Begum, because of her

491
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:24.160
<v Speaker 2>being young, being a woman of color, being a Muslim woman,

492
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:28.559
<v Speaker 2>she was treated with suspicion I think from the very start.

493
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.400
<v Speaker 2>Whereas mo Fara, despite also being Muslim, being a man

494
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:35.880
<v Speaker 2>of color, he had this status of being a public.

495
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:37.319
<v Speaker 3>Hero.

496
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.640
<v Speaker 2>I think in the UK because of his gold medals,

497
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:41.240
<v Speaker 2>because of his knighthood, he had a kind of a

498
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:47.759
<v Speaker 2>status and credibility already. And then Prince Andrew just scupper

499
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.720
<v Speaker 2>is the theory, doesn't he because he is speaking from

500
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.480
<v Speaker 2>a position of power. But maybe it's because he's in

501
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.880
<v Speaker 2>an institution that we've increasingly come to distrust.

502
00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:57.880
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. I think so.

503
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.680
<v Speaker 1>There's so many people that are anti Morey. I think

504
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:03.640
<v Speaker 1>that probably clouded their judgment on it before he'd even

505
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:04.359
<v Speaker 1>opened his mouth.

506
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.319
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think so. I think so.

507
00:27:06.440 --> 00:27:08.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm thinking about even the ways that we've read sort

508
00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:12.880
<v Speaker 2>of Prince Harry's autobiography that's been read the suspicion as well. Actually,

509
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:16.200
<v Speaker 2>and there is a lot of I'm trying to think about,

510
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:19.240
<v Speaker 2>are there any members of the royal family who automatically

511
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:21.599
<v Speaker 2>have the public trust. The answer to that, I think

512
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 2>is not actually even Princess Kate. She's not Princess Kate anymore.

513
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:30.640
<v Speaker 3>She Wales.

514
00:27:31.240 --> 00:27:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Remember there was that photograph or in Christmas time that

515
00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:38.200
<v Speaker 2>pure shocked. So there's some there is something about how

516
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:43.759
<v Speaker 2>we relate to people through those social structures, through you know,

517
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.759
<v Speaker 2>the attachment to institutions and so on.

518
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:49.319
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, I wondered if that was the case, because

519
00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:50.759
<v Speaker 1>I think you always have to look at the person.

520
00:27:50.839 --> 00:27:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Then you have how charismatic they are, how they come

521
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.720
<v Speaker 1>across as just thinking of the Chanelle Miller case, you know,

522
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:01.559
<v Speaker 1>a young, attractive female that does have an impact on

523
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:03.960
<v Speaker 1>how the story sits and how people react to it

524
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:05.440
<v Speaker 1>as well, doesn't it.

525
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:07.680
<v Speaker 2>It does, But I think when we think about the

526
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Chanelle Miller story, it also reminds of the ways that

527
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:15.480
<v Speaker 2>institutions can accord credibility to a personal story. So I

528
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:19.920
<v Speaker 2>think podcasts in particular do something really intriguing, which is

529
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:24.240
<v Speaker 2>invite people who I'm thinking about, these kind of career

530
00:28:24.279 --> 00:28:28.640
<v Speaker 2>criminals and gangsters who might be considered dishonest or distrustful

531
00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.720
<v Speaker 2>or dodgy from the start, and they make space for

532
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:34.799
<v Speaker 2>people to tell their personal stories. I think actually some

533
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.039
<v Speaker 2>genres of music do that too, thinking about even grime

534
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:43.240
<v Speaker 2>and drill and rap music give people a space and

535
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:46.599
<v Speaker 2>I guess a language of vocabulary to talk about themselves

536
00:28:46.599 --> 00:28:53.480
<v Speaker 2>that can offer dignity. And what these kind of genres

537
00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.200
<v Speaker 2>do is they kind of convey to the reader that

538
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:58.240
<v Speaker 2>these stories are worth listening to, So they do something

539
00:28:58.319 --> 00:28:58.960
<v Speaker 2>really important.

540
00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:00.319
<v Speaker 3>These stories might been.

541
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:02.519
<v Speaker 2>Told to different context, but once it's in a podcast

542
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:05.319
<v Speaker 2>or once it's in a newspaper, then it sets us

543
00:29:05.359 --> 00:29:07.960
<v Speaker 2>up to say there's something really important here that we

544
00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:13.240
<v Speaker 2>should listen to. And I think, yes, Shanelle Miller's story

545
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:15.359
<v Speaker 2>because it was because it had the power of the

546
00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:18.039
<v Speaker 2>state behind it, because it was a victim personal statement.

547
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:20.720
<v Speaker 2>It had a kind of credibility to it because it

548
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:22.480
<v Speaker 2>for it to be read out in court, has to

549
00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:25.119
<v Speaker 2>go through different processes, and it has this kind officialness

550
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:28.519
<v Speaker 2>that sticks to it. But also actually, she was a

551
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:32.079
<v Speaker 2>fantastic writer and that comes across through it, and it

552
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.599
<v Speaker 2>just means it's fantastically readable despite being about really really

553
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.119
<v Speaker 2>awful things having come to her.

554
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:41.160
<v Speaker 1>And I have to ask, maybe I can make this

555
00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.039
<v Speaker 1>the last question, and the Myra Hindley one was there

556
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:50.400
<v Speaker 1>any public sympathy or feeling that you know, she now

557
00:29:50.440 --> 00:29:54.759
<v Speaker 1>has shown remarre she's done her time. Because I just wondered,

558
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:58.880
<v Speaker 1>if Myra Hindley is such a well known and, as

559
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:03.480
<v Speaker 1>you said, hated figure, is that case gone too far

560
00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:06.400
<v Speaker 1>for anyone to ever feel any sort of sympathy towards her.

561
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:10.720
<v Speaker 2>So when I was doing my research, I have to

562
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:13.319
<v Speaker 2>shout out a guy called Tom Clark at University of

563
00:30:13.480 --> 00:30:17.039
<v Speaker 2>Sheffield because he was super helpful in helping me get

564
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:19.240
<v Speaker 2>hold of material and also kind of filling in bits

565
00:30:19.279 --> 00:30:24.359
<v Speaker 2>of background information. And so I lived through the kind

566
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:28.079
<v Speaker 2>of the aftermath of the Moor's murders growing up in

567
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:30.960
<v Speaker 2>the sort of eighties and nineties, and was aware of Hindley.

568
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>This was a time when she would have been in

569
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:35.839
<v Speaker 2>prison for a long time already, and her case was

570
00:30:35.920 --> 00:30:37.400
<v Speaker 2>under review, and she would have been in the press

571
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:39.400
<v Speaker 2>quite a lot, but I didn't know a huge amount

572
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:43.759
<v Speaker 2>about the details. And actually when I started writing about

573
00:30:43.759 --> 00:30:45.720
<v Speaker 2>Myra Hindley, it was because I wanted to write a

574
00:30:45.799 --> 00:30:49.480
<v Speaker 2>chapter about silences and stories that weren't told in public.

575
00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:53.880
<v Speaker 2>I thought, she's someone who's been silenced, and actually that

576
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:58.759
<v Speaker 2>wasn't what I found it all. So Tom Clark wrote

577
00:30:58.839 --> 00:31:01.319
<v Speaker 2>a journal article looking at a letter that was published

578
00:31:01.319 --> 00:31:04.359
<v Speaker 2>in The Observer and it was written by Myra Hindley

579
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:07.599
<v Speaker 2>and it's about five thousand words long. And she was

580
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:10.759
<v Speaker 2>writing to the paper because they published something that infer

581
00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:15.200
<v Speaker 2>that she was had some psychological issues, and she said, actually,

582
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:18.079
<v Speaker 2>not been reviewed by multiple psycho psychologists who've said that

583
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:19.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm normal. And that's the worst thing about this is

584
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:22.039
<v Speaker 2>that nobody, nobody can tell me what's wrong with me.

585
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.160
<v Speaker 2>So how did Marahindley manage to get this five thousand

586
00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:28.400
<v Speaker 2>word letter in the national press. And that's because she

587
00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:35.359
<v Speaker 2>had over the years cultivated friendships with people, including Lord Longford,

588
00:31:36.920 --> 00:31:39.079
<v Speaker 2>who was a Catholic, who visited her in prison and

589
00:31:39.119 --> 00:31:42.519
<v Speaker 2>he was very interested in redemption. One of the reasons

590
00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:46.720
<v Speaker 2>that Hindley's case was so important was that the death

591
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:51.599
<v Speaker 2>penalty was abolished right before they were sentenced. It was

592
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:54.119
<v Speaker 2>technically it was paused, and then it was abolished once

593
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:56.400
<v Speaker 2>they were in prison. But that meant that they were

594
00:31:56.480 --> 00:32:00.160
<v Speaker 2>some of the first people to have committed crimes of

595
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.839
<v Speaker 2>the most serious order, but then there was no death penalty,

596
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:05.640
<v Speaker 2>so what was the state going to do with them?

597
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:08.119
<v Speaker 2>So they were given this initial twenty or twenty five

598
00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:12.160
<v Speaker 2>year sentence. I forget which one. And there were lots

599
00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:15.519
<v Speaker 2>of campaigners who were interested in this, including a man

600
00:32:15.559 --> 00:32:17.640
<v Speaker 2>whose name escapes me at the minute, but he was

601
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:19.880
<v Speaker 2>editor of the Observer newspaper and he used to go

602
00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:22.960
<v Speaker 2>and visit Hindley in prison, and he was instrumental in

603
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.799
<v Speaker 2>helping her story get told in the newspaper. So the

604
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:29.079
<v Speaker 2>short answer is, yes, there were people who were sympathetic,

605
00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>and most were people who were interested in reform and redemption,

606
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:35.720
<v Speaker 2>and they did give Hindley a voice, and they did

607
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:37.920
<v Speaker 2>allow her to tell her story in public, not that

608
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:41.000
<v Speaker 2>it necessarily changed the course of her case.

609
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:42.359
<v Speaker 3>She was never.

610
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Released from prison, and she died in custody in the

611
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:46.079
<v Speaker 2>early two thousands.

612
00:32:46.759 --> 00:32:49.839
<v Speaker 3>But I think there's always.

613
00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:52.000
<v Speaker 2>An audience for a story. I think, even if it's

614
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:52.720
<v Speaker 2>quite a small one.

615
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:56.759
<v Speaker 1>I think, yeah, that one's always fascinated me because you know,

616
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.480
<v Speaker 1>most people know the name Myra Hindley, certainly view of

617
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:04.960
<v Speaker 1>a certain generation, most so than he and Brady. So

618
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:06.640
<v Speaker 1>you know the fact that she was a woman that

619
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:08.880
<v Speaker 1>you know that sticks in people's mind because of the

620
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:09.559
<v Speaker 1>crimes that I.

621
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Committed, absolutely absolutely, and she has I mean, iconic is

622
00:33:16.279 --> 00:33:19.519
<v Speaker 2>the word that strings springs to mind, and not in

623
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:23.160
<v Speaker 2>a good way, I think, But she was so she

624
00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.519
<v Speaker 2>was so emblematic of social anxieties at the time in

625
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:31.759
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen sixties, about changing role of women, about young

626
00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:34.400
<v Speaker 2>people not seeming to want seeming to want to do

627
00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:36.799
<v Speaker 2>the same things that their parents had done. So they

628
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of tapped into these social anxieties, and then they

629
00:33:39.680 --> 00:33:41.799
<v Speaker 2>were really at the heart of changes in the criminal

630
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:47.640
<v Speaker 2>justice system. There was one rule about telling about prisoner

631
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:52.359
<v Speaker 2>communications that changed while they were in prison, and there

632
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:55.319
<v Speaker 2>was a time when all prisoner letters were checked on

633
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:58.960
<v Speaker 2>the way out, and then as the prison population grew,

634
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.400
<v Speaker 2>that became kind of a man and only category A

635
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:05.680
<v Speaker 2>prisoners were or people who'd committed defenses against children, and

636
00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 2>that exception was surely written with them in mind. So

637
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:12.480
<v Speaker 2>they've just they've just been at the heart of so

638
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<v Speaker 2>much I think that was going on, and they have

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<v Speaker 2>this continued resonance and people are still interested in them.

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<v Speaker 3>But I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a it was a difficult chapter to write,

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00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.719
<v Speaker 2>and I did wonder about including it, I think because

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<v Speaker 2>I thought, what could I possibly add So much has

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<v Speaker 2>been written about them, But I think there is something

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<v Speaker 2>still to say, and I enjoyed writing that chapter, I

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<v Speaker 2>think would be yeah. I think I did enjoy writing overall,

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00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:45.400
<v Speaker 2>but reading about Hindley and our crimes was confronting and difficult.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, yeah, I can understand that. Thank you, Thank you, Jennifer.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you want to say a little bit more about

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<v Speaker 1>the book if people want to find out a bit

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00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:55.039
<v Speaker 1>more or want to purchase the book or two?

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<v Speaker 3>Sure?

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00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:56.039
<v Speaker 1>So.

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<v Speaker 2>The book is called What we Talk About When We

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00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Talk About Crime, and it's published by a small independent

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00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:03.559
<v Speaker 2>press called notting Hill Editions. But you can find it

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00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:07.920
<v Speaker 2>online in all the usual online bookshops. You can also

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00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:10.159
<v Speaker 2>buy it from Waterstins, and you can also buy it

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00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.440
<v Speaker 2>directly from the publisher. It's very reasonably priced at only

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<v Speaker 2>ten ninety nine, and it's a lovely little book. It's

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00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:20.360
<v Speaker 2>not too long, the chapters are nice and short. I

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00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:22.880
<v Speaker 2>think I had a reader in mind who's hopping on

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<v Speaker 2>the tube or the boss or in a waiting room somewhere,

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<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to give them something short and thought

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<v Speaker 2>provoking that they could take with them wherever they went.

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<v Speaker 1>It's brilliant. Thank you, Thank you so much for your

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<v Speaker 1>time today. Jennifer, I really appreciate it.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you for taking the time to listen to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>If you would like to contact the show or be interviewed,

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<v Speaker 1>then please email The Sociology Show podcast at gmail dot com.