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<v Speaker 7>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 7>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 7>written about them.

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<v Speaker 8>Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.

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<v Speaker 7>Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking

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<v Speaker 7>and infamous killers in true crime history True Murder with

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<v Speaker 7>your host, journalist and author Dan.

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<v Speaker 9>Zupanski, good Evening.

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<v Speaker 8>Ventura County is famous for its beautiful weather and its

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<v Speaker 8>pristine coastline, not its grisly murders. That all changed on

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<v Speaker 8>the night of May twentieth, two thousand and nine, when

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<v Speaker 8>three members of a wealthy Ventura County family were slaughtered

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<v Speaker 8>inside their luxurious beachfront home. The father was a successful businessman,

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<v Speaker 8>the pregnant mother was a former beauty queen. Their unborn

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<v Speaker 8>son was waiting to take his first breath of life.

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<v Speaker 8>For nearly a year, detectives were unable to solve the

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<v Speaker 8>bizarre beach house slayings. Finally, in the spring of twenty ten,

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<v Speaker 8>a DNA database broke the case wide open. Filled with

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<v Speaker 8>stirring interviews, historic context, and never before released details about

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<v Speaker 8>the Fariah murders, Black Knight, Gold Coast tells the story

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<v Speaker 8>of an American tragedy that is at once shocking, timely,

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<v Speaker 8>and haunting. The book that we're featuring this evening is

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<v Speaker 8>Black Night, Gold Coast with my special guest, journalist and

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<v Speaker 8>author Gray George welcome to the program, and thank you

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<v Speaker 8>for agreeing in this interview.

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<v Speaker 10>Great George, good evening, Thank you very much for having me.

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<v Speaker 8>Thank you very much. Interesting, very interesting book, to say

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<v Speaker 8>the least. Let's talk about set the stage with you.

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<v Speaker 8>Explain a little bit about Ventura County, and for those

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<v Speaker 8>people that don't know, which probably most people, tell us

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<v Speaker 8>about the breakdown with the smaller cities of Ventura and

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<v Speaker 8>ox nerd and Thousand Oaks in Simi Valley, and then

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<v Speaker 8>talk about Ventura itself. So tell us a little bit

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<v Speaker 8>about this beautiful, tranquil place before we talk about Brock

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<v Speaker 8>and Divina Husteds.

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<v Speaker 10>Ventura County is just northeast of Los Angeles, excuse me,

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<v Speaker 10>just northwest of Los Angeles. It hugs the Pacific Coast,

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<v Speaker 10>and it's known for several things. As you read at

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<v Speaker 10>the beginning, it's known for its beautiful coastline, it's nearly

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<v Speaker 10>perfect year, and the county is, believe it or not,

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<v Speaker 10>largely agricultural. There are several larger cities in the county, though,

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<v Speaker 10>and that's where most of the population is based. The

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<v Speaker 10>largest city is Oxnard, and then there are at least

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<v Speaker 10>three other cities I know of in the county that

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<v Speaker 10>have populations that exceed one hundred thousand, those being Thousand Oaks,

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<v Speaker 10>Semi Valley, and the city of Ventura itself, which is

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<v Speaker 10>the county seat Ventura County. Unlike Los Angeles, Ventura County

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<v Speaker 10>is known for low crime rates for affluent citizens, for

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<v Speaker 10>people who essentially want to get away from the crime

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<v Speaker 10>of the larger cities and the bigger metropolitan areas. So

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<v Speaker 10>when it comes to crime, typically people at least in

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<v Speaker 10>this region don't think of Ventura County as being a

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<v Speaker 10>hotbed of violent sensational crime.

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<v Speaker 8>Now, let's talk about a couple people that are very

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<v Speaker 8>central to this case, of course, And we talked about

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<v Speaker 8>the husband and the pregnant wife, and in this beautiful

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<v Speaker 8>home on this beach front. Let's talk about brock Edward

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<v Speaker 8>And if I mispronounced the name, please correct me. The

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<v Speaker 8>Husted and Houston, Okay, and Devona and the former Debony.

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<v Speaker 8>So tell us about this couple that's both forty two

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<v Speaker 8>years of age when this story begins, when we are

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<v Speaker 8>looking at this couple, tell us about them and their children,

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<v Speaker 8>and tell us a little bit about what they do

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<v Speaker 8>and who they really are. And especially in this community.

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<v Speaker 10>Brock and Divini Houstad were a very affluent couple. They

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<v Speaker 10>lived in a community at the time of their murders

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<v Speaker 10>called Faria, which is just a few miles up the

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<v Speaker 10>coast from the city of Ventura. Faria is an extremely

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<v Speaker 10>upscale community. Only a few people live there in several

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<v Speaker 10>oceanfront homes. Brock Housteed was born in Hidden Hills, which

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<v Speaker 10>is a community in Los Angeles County that is one

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<v Speaker 10>of the most affluent in the entire country. As I

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<v Speaker 10>point out in the book Bloomberg Business listed in two

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<v Speaker 10>thousand and nine, the year of this crime, listed Hidden

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<v Speaker 10>Hills as being one of the wealthiest towns in America.

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<v Speaker 10>So Brock Housted grew up in relative affluence. When he

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<v Speaker 10>was a child, his family moved to a city called

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<v Speaker 10>Moore Park, which is in Ventura County, and for high

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<v Speaker 10>school he attended a very exclusive private school in Ohi

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<v Speaker 10>called Villanova Preparatory Academy. After high school, Brock's brother Scott,

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<v Speaker 10>went to work at a local bank, and while he

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<v Speaker 10>was working at the bank, he met a young woman

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<v Speaker 10>who was one of his coworkers named Divina Deboni. She

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<v Speaker 10>was a tall, statuesque blonde absolutely gorgeous. In fact, when

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<v Speaker 10>she was nineteen years old, she had won the Miss

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<v Speaker 10>Oxnard pageant, and then she'd gone on to compete in

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<v Speaker 10>the Miss California pageant, which I'm sure most of your

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<v Speaker 10>audience members know is the last step before one enters

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<v Speaker 10>the Miss America pageant. So Divina de Boni was absolutely gorgeous,

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<v Speaker 10>and at least it's my understanding that when Scott Husted

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<v Speaker 10>first met her, he thought that she might be a

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<v Speaker 10>good match for his younger brother Brock. So, to make

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<v Speaker 10>a long story short, in nineteen ninety Brock and Divina

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<v Speaker 10>Houstead were introduced to one another, and as the story goes,

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<v Speaker 10>they were immediate There were immediate sparks between them. Within

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<v Speaker 10>the next couple of years they were engaged and finally

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<v Speaker 10>in nineteen ninety five they married. They initially lived after

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<v Speaker 10>their marriage in a very exclusive neighborhood in the city

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<v Speaker 10>of Ventura called Ventura Keys, which is nestled right along

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<v Speaker 10>the coast. There are mooring areas, there are boat docks

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<v Speaker 10>within the neighborhood, and then after their children were born,

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<v Speaker 10>they moved up the coast to the Faria home at

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<v Speaker 10>the at the time of the crimes. Brock Housteed operated

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<v Speaker 10>a business called Cotur Concepts. He provided custom metal work

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<v Speaker 10>for high end clients. Some of his celebrity clients here

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<v Speaker 10>in this region included Suzanne Summers, Mel Gibson, Oprah Winfrey,

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<v Speaker 10>who owns a large spread up in the Montecito area

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<v Speaker 10>in Santa Barbara County. He had done work for all

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<v Speaker 10>of them. Brockhusted's work his metal work had appeared in magazines.

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<v Speaker 10>And at the same time Brock Houstead was getting his

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<v Speaker 10>metal business up and running, Divina was establishing herself as

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<v Speaker 10>a major player in the local charity world of Ventura County.

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<v Speaker 10>She was the president of the national charity Junior League

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<v Speaker 10>of Ventura. She made enormous strides in terms of fundraising

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<v Speaker 10>for that particular charity as well as others. In fact,

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<v Speaker 10>one week before the tragic crimes that I detail in

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<v Speaker 10>the book, she had given a check for almost eighty

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<v Speaker 10>five thousand dollars to the local hospital. So both brock

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<v Speaker 10>and Divini Houstad were enormously active people. They were involved

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<v Speaker 10>in their community, They were deeply involved in the lives

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<v Speaker 10>of their children, Brocky and Isabella, and from all outward

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<v Speaker 10>appearances they had almost the perfect life, living in their beautiful,

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<v Speaker 10>multimillion dollar oceanfront home in Pharrea.

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<v Speaker 8>Now tell us a little bit about the ages. Tell

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<v Speaker 8>us the ages of the two children, Brocki the boy

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<v Speaker 8>and Isabella the girl, and just tell us a little

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<v Speaker 8>bit about the children that they had. Now you talked

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<v Speaker 8>about the idyllic life that they must have had. But

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<v Speaker 8>tell us us a little bit about the characters of

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<v Speaker 8>these two children at that age nine and eleven.

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<v Speaker 10>At the time of the crimes, Isabella was eleven years old,

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<v Speaker 10>Brocki was nine years old. It's my understanding that they

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<v Speaker 10>attended Pierpoint Elementary School in Ventura. Brocky and Isabella were

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<v Speaker 10>extremely close based on everything I've been able to glean

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<v Speaker 10>about this case, and they were very close with their parents.

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<v Speaker 10>When they weren't in school, they took cotillion classes, which

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<v Speaker 10>it's my understanding those are manners based classes. They also

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<v Speaker 10>spent a lot of time with their family members, with

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<v Speaker 10>their father out fishing, surfing, boating. Their mother was actively

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<v Speaker 10>involved at their school where she was involved in volunteer work,

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<v Speaker 10>and from all accounts, they were completely normal, well adjusted

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<v Speaker 10>children who came from a very large Ventura County background.

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<v Speaker 10>Like I pointed out before both of their parents had

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<v Speaker 10>grown up in Ventura County, so they had a large

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<v Speaker 10>network of family members who lived nearby, and they were

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<v Speaker 10>very well supported for after the tragedy occurred.

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<v Speaker 8>Now, this idyllic life is obviously shattered. May twentieth, two

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<v Speaker 8>thousand and nine. But you did mentioned you talk about

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<v Speaker 8>their their comfort, their their affluence, and and I guess

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<v Speaker 8>their relative security living in this gated community. So what

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<v Speaker 8>was their practice in terms of security with this house.

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<v Speaker 8>What was their real day to day practice, and also

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<v Speaker 8>tell us set the stage for what they were doing

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<v Speaker 8>as a family that evening on May twentieth, two thousand

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<v Speaker 8>and nine.

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<v Speaker 10>So, unfortunately, and it's one of the great ironies of

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<v Speaker 10>this story, I think the Housteads, because I think they

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<v Speaker 10>lived in a very safe, comfortable, gated community. They took

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<v Speaker 10>their security, their home security for granted a little bit,

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<v Speaker 10>at least on the night of the track. On the

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<v Speaker 10>night of the murders, the family was sitting in their

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<v Speaker 10>living room at their beachfront property and they were watching television.

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<v Speaker 10>They were watching American Idol, and that was the season

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<v Speaker 10>finale actually on May twenty, two thousand and nine, of

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<v Speaker 10>the season when Chris Allen and Adam Lambert squared off

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<v Speaker 10>on American Idol. Well at about ten pm, the winner

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<v Speaker 10>of American Idol was announced, and at the time, Brocky,

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<v Speaker 10>his mother Divina, and his father Brock were sitting in

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<v Speaker 10>the living room of their home. Isabella was asleep in

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<v Speaker 10>her bedroom toward the front end, the north end of

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<v Speaker 10>their home, and it was just a very normal, typical

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<v Speaker 10>night for them. Just after the winner was announced, just

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<v Speaker 10>after Chris Allen was announced as the victor in that

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<v Speaker 10>year's American Idol, Brock Houstad rose off the couch and

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<v Speaker 10>he walked into the kitchen of their home, which was

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<v Speaker 10>attached to the living room area as sort of one

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<v Speaker 10>large great room. Now, as I mentioned before, it appears

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<v Speaker 10>that the Housteds were at least on this evening somewhat

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<v Speaker 10>lacks about their home security, and both the back door

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<v Speaker 10>and the side door of their home had been left unlocked.

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<v Speaker 10>So as brochu Stead was walking around the kitchen and

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<v Speaker 10>his wife and his young son Brocki were sitting in

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<v Speaker 10>the living room watching the confetti fall on the stage

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<v Speaker 10>at the Nokia Theater in Hollywood, a man bursts through

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<v Speaker 10>the back door of their home. And it was from

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<v Speaker 10>there that the tragic events in May twentieth really began

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<v Speaker 10>to take shape.

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<v Speaker 8>Now, where was Isabella at this time? And he burst through?

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<v Speaker 8>And so what was number one? Everybody saw him, but

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<v Speaker 8>we're going to be talking about that. It was only

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<v Speaker 8>really one witness. So tell us what this intruder looked

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<v Speaker 8>like and how he was dressed, and if he was

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<v Speaker 8>armed or not.

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<v Speaker 10>So at the time, Brocky and his mother were sitting

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<v Speaker 10>on the sofa in their living room. His father Brock

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<v Speaker 10>was in the kitchen area. His sister Isabella was asleep

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<v Speaker 10>in her bedroom at the front of the house. The

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<v Speaker 10>intruder who burst through the door was dressed head to

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<v Speaker 10>toe in black. He was wearing black boots, a black jumpsuit,

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<v Speaker 10>black gloves, and a black motorcycle helmet that completely covered

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<v Speaker 10>his face. As soon as he charged through the door,

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<v Speaker 10>According to the statement that was later given to detectives,

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<v Speaker 10>he immediately told all of the family members, Brock, Divina,

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<v Speaker 10>and Brocki to get on the floor. They did is

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<v Speaker 10>they were instructed. They all immediately got on the floor

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<v Speaker 10>and as soon as they were down, the intruder, who

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<v Speaker 10>was holding blacks what appeared to be a black semi

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<v Speaker 10>automatic pistol, got on brock hu Stead's back and immediately

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<v Speaker 10>pointed his gun at the back of the father's head

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<v Speaker 10>and began demanding money from the family. It was impossible

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<v Speaker 10>for the three members of the family who saw the

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<v Speaker 10>suspect enter the home to get a clear view of

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<v Speaker 10>his face because there was a face There was a

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<v Speaker 10>visor on the face mask that actually obscured the portion

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<v Speaker 10>of the face that would otherwise be visible. So all

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<v Speaker 10>they knew is that this armed, violent individual had entered

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<v Speaker 10>their home. He had ordered them to the floor, he

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<v Speaker 10>had jumped on the father's back, he had grabbed the

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<v Speaker 10>father's care in his hands, smashed the father's face into

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<v Speaker 10>the floor, leaving a puddle of blood on the wooden

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<v Speaker 10>kitchen floor, and he had started demanding the family's money

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<v Speaker 10>from them. It was we can only imagine it must

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<v Speaker 10>have been an absolutely terrifying experience.

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<v Speaker 8>Now, how pregnant was the vina and what was her state,

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<v Speaker 8>how her what was her reaction to this intruder, How

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<v Speaker 8>hysterical was she or not.

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<v Speaker 10>Here's that she maintained an extremely level head. I think

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<v Speaker 10>I forgot to mention that she was five months pregnant

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<v Speaker 10>when all of this occurred, she was five months pregnant

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<v Speaker 10>with her third child. Based on the crime scene photos

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<v Speaker 10>I was able to observe during my research for the book,

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<v Speaker 10>she was clearly pregnant. Her abdomen was very convex, so

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<v Speaker 10>we know with absolute certainty that the suspect must have

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<v Speaker 10>known that she was pregnant at the time of the crimes.

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<v Speaker 10>She apparently kept an extremely level head during the crime,

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<v Speaker 10>as did her husband, as did Brocky, the son, who

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<v Speaker 10>was nine years old at the time and witnessing all

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<v Speaker 10>of this inside of his home. And as soon as

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<v Speaker 10>the intruder began making demands for money, Devina instructed her son,

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<v Speaker 10>in what was reported as a calm voice, or at

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<v Speaker 10>least as calm as one could reasonably expect for a

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<v Speaker 10>situation like this, She instructed her son to go back

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<v Speaker 10>to the bed room and get the money from her purse.

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<v Speaker 10>And at almost exactly the same time, the father, who

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<v Speaker 10>again is being pinned to the floor of the kitchen

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<v Speaker 10>by the intruder, asked his son to go into the

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<v Speaker 10>kitchen and or as his son to go into the

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<v Speaker 10>bedroom and get his money clip as well. So as

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<v Speaker 10>soon as Brocki was instructed to go get his parents' money.

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<v Speaker 10>He got off the floor, walked into the bedroom, retrieved

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<v Speaker 10>the money, and brought it back into the main room

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<v Speaker 10>to give to the intruder.

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<v Speaker 8>Brocki heard something very profound uttered from his father or

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<v Speaker 8>his mother or both regarding him and his sister. What

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<v Speaker 8>did he hear? His parents say?

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<v Speaker 10>That's absolutely right, as Brocki. After Brocki gave the money

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<v Speaker 10>to the intruder, he went back into the living room area,

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<v Speaker 10>where his mother was still on the floor, And it

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<v Speaker 10>was at about that time that the intruder started demanding

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<v Speaker 10>jewelry while a parent, I guess, assuming that her son

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<v Speaker 10>didn't know where a jewelry was. Divina Houstad struggled up

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00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:08.200
<v Speaker 10>from the floor, and again, she was five months pregnant

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<v Speaker 10>at the time, so we can only imagine it must

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00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.279
<v Speaker 10>have been quite more deal for her to elevate herself

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00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:15.640
<v Speaker 10>to her feet. She got up off the floor and

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<v Speaker 10>attempted to go get jewelry for the intruder. Well, at

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<v Speaker 10>this point, Brocky is standing over in the living room

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<v Speaker 10>area and his perception of the event starts to break

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<v Speaker 10>down a little bit. Of course, he's a traumatized nine

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<v Speaker 10>year old boy, so I suppose that's to be expected.

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<v Speaker 10>But he hears both of his parents begging the intruder

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<v Speaker 10>not to murder their children. And it was at about

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00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:46.920
<v Speaker 10>this time that his mother and father were both herded

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<v Speaker 10>out of the kitchen area and into the back bedroom

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<v Speaker 10>of the home.

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<v Speaker 8>Now, what could Brocky hear? And not that he could

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<v Speaker 8>tell everything that went on, but from his discernment, what

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<v Speaker 8>could he did conclusively be able to tell that was

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<v Speaker 8>going on, at least in his mind, from the noises

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<v Speaker 8>that he heard.

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<v Speaker 10>There was slamming, there was banging, there was thrashing coming

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<v Speaker 10>from the back bedroom where his parents had been herded

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<v Speaker 10>with the intruder. There's no report that he was able

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<v Speaker 10>to hear muffled voices, but of course there was a

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<v Speaker 10>short hallway between Brocky's location in the living room and

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<v Speaker 10>the back bedroom where his parents had been herded by

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<v Speaker 10>this armed intruder. After about three minutes, about three minutes

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<v Speaker 10>after the initial thrashing and banging in the back bedroom,

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<v Speaker 10>Brocki hears this blood curdling scream coming from his mother

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<v Speaker 10>in the back bedroom, and after just a couple of seconds,

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<v Speaker 10>the screaming stopped, and it was at that point that

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<v Speaker 10>Brocky finally scampers from where he had been kneeling standing

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<v Speaker 10>next to the living room coffee table to a position

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00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.319
<v Speaker 10>behind find the far end of the living room sofa,

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<v Speaker 10>where he was at least partially concealed from anyone who

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00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.759
<v Speaker 10>might be looking for him. And after he heard his

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00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:13.440
<v Speaker 10>mother's scream, he didn't hear anything else until he started

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<v Speaker 10>to hear heavy, the heavy fall of boots walking through

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<v Speaker 10>his house.

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<v Speaker 8>Now what he did see, though, was a gun outside

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<v Speaker 8>of the bedroom. And then he thought, and then he

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00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:36.079
<v Speaker 8>heard those footsteps back in the building again. Because if

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<v Speaker 8>I'm not getting events correctly, he did see something happen

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<v Speaker 8>when in terms of the gun, and then something else

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00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:46.759
<v Speaker 8>happened regarding the gun. So tell us what he did see,

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<v Speaker 8>and then that turn of events rights.

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<v Speaker 10>That's more or less correct. So, as Brockie is hiding

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<v Speaker 10>behind the far end of the living room sofa, he

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<v Speaker 10>hears bootsteps coming down the wall, obviously the intruder's heavy

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<v Speaker 10>footsteps coming down the hallway. He sees the intruder, still

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<v Speaker 10>in his motorcycle helmet, still in his black jumpsuit, walk

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<v Speaker 10>through the living room of his house and moved to

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<v Speaker 10>the back door. Now this is the door that opens

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<v Speaker 10>onto the ocean front deck above the Pacific. It's the

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<v Speaker 10>same door that the intruder had burst through just minutes earlier.

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<v Speaker 10>Brocki notices that the intruder is rubbing together the thumb

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<v Speaker 10>and fingers of his right hand. Brocki didn't think too

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<v Speaker 10>much of it at the time, but he did recall

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<v Speaker 10>that detail later. After the intruder walks out the door,

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<v Speaker 10>Brocky immediately sprints back down the hallway of his home,

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<v Speaker 10>and as he's going down the hallway, he notices the

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00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:46.960
<v Speaker 10>intruders what appears to be a black stainless nine millimeter

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<v Speaker 10>semi automatic pistol lying on the lying on the floor

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<v Speaker 10>of the hallway. Well. Brocky walks into his parents' room

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<v Speaker 10>and it's an absolute slaughter. His parents are both on

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<v Speaker 10>the floor, either of them removing. There's no sign of respiration.

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<v Speaker 10>There's blood everywhere. There's blood on the ceiling, there's blood

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<v Speaker 10>on the walls. There's a huge puddle of bright red

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<v Speaker 10>blood on the floor. So, fearing for his sister's safety,

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<v Speaker 10>Rocky immediately makes his way back to his sister Isabella's room,

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<v Speaker 10>which is beside his parents' bedroom. He walks in and

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<v Speaker 10>fortunately he finds that she has not been murdered as well.

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<v Speaker 10>He wakes Isabella up, and at first, as you can imagine,

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<v Speaker 10>she's an absolute disbelief. Here's an eleven year old girl

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<v Speaker 10>who one minute she's sound asleep in her own bed.

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<v Speaker 10>The next moment, she's being shaken awake by her brother,

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<v Speaker 10>who is telling her that both of their parents have

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<v Speaker 10>been eviscerated in their bedroom. Well, at first, Isabella encourages

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<v Speaker 10>Brocky to get into bed with her to calm down.

383
00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:51.440
<v Speaker 10>Everything will be okay, you were just having a bad dream.

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<v Speaker 10>But after a minute or two, Isabella begins to realize

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00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.279
<v Speaker 10>that Brocky is deeply distraught, so she finally relents and

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00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.319
<v Speaker 10>gets out of bed and follows him into their parents' bedroom.

387
00:24:02.079 --> 00:24:05.039
<v Speaker 10>And that's when she sees the carnage for herself. And

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<v Speaker 10>that's when both children's terrors ratcheted up, ratcheted up to

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<v Speaker 10>an entirely new level. After Isabella and Brocky view their

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00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:17.359
<v Speaker 10>parents dead, she immediately grabs him by the hand and

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00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.359
<v Speaker 10>pulls him into the bathroom. She closes the door, they

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00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:25.839
<v Speaker 10>lock the door, and as they're standing there, shivering shaking

393
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:30.759
<v Speaker 10>on the bathroom floor, they hear the pounding of bootsteps

394
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:35.920
<v Speaker 10>re entering the home, and both children were absolutely frightened.

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<v Speaker 10>They immediately took refuge in the shower. They closed the

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00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.559
<v Speaker 10>door as silently as they could, and they sat there

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<v Speaker 10>in the cold, dark bathroom with only a flimsy knob

398
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:48.640
<v Speaker 10>lock on the door between them and the intruder who

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00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:50.079
<v Speaker 10>had re entered the home.

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<v Speaker 8>And to their surprise, he doesn't come looking for them.

401
00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:04.400
<v Speaker 10>And what happens that is one of the most miraculous

402
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:08.079
<v Speaker 10>parts of this whole story. As they're sitting in there,

403
00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.880
<v Speaker 10>As the children are sitting in the shower, shivering, having

404
00:25:10.920 --> 00:25:13.359
<v Speaker 10>just seen both of their parents brutally slaughtered on the

405
00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:16.920
<v Speaker 10>floor of their bedroom, they can hear the intruder walking

406
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:19.920
<v Speaker 10>around the bedroom. They can't tell exactly how he's moving,

407
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.799
<v Speaker 10>It sounds like he's moving in sort of an erratic manner,

408
00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:25.960
<v Speaker 10>as if he's looking for something in the bedroom. Well,

409
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<v Speaker 10>after a few minutes of pounding footsteps, minutes that must

410
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<v Speaker 10>have seemed like hours to these poor children, they finally

411
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:37.279
<v Speaker 10>hear the bootsteps getting softer and softer and softer as

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00:25:37.279 --> 00:25:40.680
<v Speaker 10>they move away from the bedroom. So unsure exactly what

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00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:43.359
<v Speaker 10>to do, the children finally decide that they need to

414
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.119
<v Speaker 10>call nine to one one that they need to summon help.

415
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.839
<v Speaker 10>So the children exit the shower, they ease the bathroom

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00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:52.160
<v Speaker 10>door open. They look out, and they can't tell that

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00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.039
<v Speaker 10>anyone's in the house. Brocky looks out into the hallway

418
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:59.160
<v Speaker 10>and he notices two really important details. He notices a

419
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:02.400
<v Speaker 10>that the back door to the house, the door to

420
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:04.599
<v Speaker 10>the ocean front deck that the intruder had come through,

421
00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:08.799
<v Speaker 10>is standing wide open. He also notices the deep step.

422
00:26:08.519 --> 00:26:13.359
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<v Speaker 10>No, we're just have a ydia room wherever By lost

445
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:14.160
<v Speaker 10>the terms conditions eighteen plus the handgun. What appeared to

446
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.240
<v Speaker 10>be a nine millimeter handgun that was on the floor

447
00:27:16.279 --> 00:27:18.799
<v Speaker 10>of the hallway just a few moments earlier when he

448
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:22.720
<v Speaker 10>and Isabella had entered the bedroom is now is now gone.

449
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:27.799
<v Speaker 10>So since the children are confident that there's no one

450
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.279
<v Speaker 10>in the bedroom, they immediately locked the bedroom door to

451
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.240
<v Speaker 10>the hallway and they begin looking at their parents. They

452
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:37.279
<v Speaker 10>finally determined that both of their parents are in fact deceased,

453
00:27:38.000 --> 00:27:42.160
<v Speaker 10>so Brocky attempts to retrieve the phone. The cordless phone

454
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:44.240
<v Speaker 10>in the bedroom had been knocked to the floor. He

455
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.160
<v Speaker 10>and Isabella look over in the corner of the room

456
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.480
<v Speaker 10>and they can see their father's outstretched hand, and this

457
00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:51.400
<v Speaker 10>is obvious in the crime scene photos as well. Their

458
00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:55.279
<v Speaker 10>father's outstretched hand was sort of pointed toward the bed,

459
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:59.759
<v Speaker 10>and evidently the cordless phone was just beyond his reach.

460
00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:04.079
<v Speaker 10>So Brocky has to walk through the pool of blood,

461
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.720
<v Speaker 10>the huge pool of blood around his mother's body. He

462
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:09.640
<v Speaker 10>has to get up on their bed, and he has

463
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:13.680
<v Speaker 10>to sort of crawl across the bed in order to

464
00:28:13.720 --> 00:28:16.119
<v Speaker 10>retrieve the phone in the corner of the room. And

465
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.759
<v Speaker 10>as he goes across the bed, and it's really a

466
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:20.640
<v Speaker 10>chilling detail of the story that you can see in

467
00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.599
<v Speaker 10>the crime scene photos. You can see his little bloody

468
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:28.079
<v Speaker 10>footprints on this pure snow white comforter the parents had

469
00:28:28.119 --> 00:28:31.680
<v Speaker 10>on their bed. He retrieves the phone, he can't get

470
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:34.759
<v Speaker 10>a dial tone on it, so he and Isabella decide

471
00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:36.359
<v Speaker 10>we have to get out of the house. We need

472
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:38.759
<v Speaker 10>to get help. The phone isn't working. This all seems

473
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:41.839
<v Speaker 10>like a nightmare come to life. So the children re

474
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:44.480
<v Speaker 10>enter the bathroom. They lock the door behind them, and

475
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:46.640
<v Speaker 10>then by getting on top of the toilet, they're able

476
00:28:46.680 --> 00:28:50.319
<v Speaker 10>to slide the bathroom window open, wriggle through the window,

477
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:52.200
<v Speaker 10>and run from the home.

478
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.359
<v Speaker 8>So now police are involved. The neighbor call nine to

479
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:03.680
<v Speaker 8>one one and so we have the police involved. What

480
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:08.880
<v Speaker 8>do police find in terms of how they were killed

481
00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:12.519
<v Speaker 8>and how many times they were stabbed? Tell us about

482
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:17.000
<v Speaker 8>those kinds of details and what the police can surmise

483
00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:20.480
<v Speaker 8>with just initially from looking at this crime scene, and

484
00:29:20.480 --> 00:29:24.440
<v Speaker 8>what they do surmise from just looking at that crime scene.

485
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:28.200
<v Speaker 10>As soon as Ventura County Sheriffs Deputies made it to

486
00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:32.119
<v Speaker 10>the home, they immediately rushed through the house and they

487
00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:36.240
<v Speaker 10>saw signs of a struggle everywhere they looked. There was

488
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:38.799
<v Speaker 10>blood behind the island in the kitchen, which is where

489
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:42.240
<v Speaker 10>the intruder had smashed rock Ustead's face into the floor

490
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:44.559
<v Speaker 10>after he had attempt after he had initially made entry

491
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:48.599
<v Speaker 10>into the home. There were also two women's shirts, one

492
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.519
<v Speaker 10>of which was on top of the kitchen island, the

493
00:29:50.599 --> 00:29:54.880
<v Speaker 10>other was beside the was in the hallway of the home,

494
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:59.319
<v Speaker 10>beside the spilt contents of a Louis Vautromp purse. So

495
00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:01.799
<v Speaker 10>the deputies make their way down the hallway of the home.

496
00:30:01.839 --> 00:30:04.559
<v Speaker 10>They find the bedroom door locked. It was still locked

497
00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:07.920
<v Speaker 10>from where Isabella and Brocky had locked it when they

498
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:12.519
<v Speaker 10>were attempting to retrieve the cordless phone. The deputies kicked

499
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:15.640
<v Speaker 10>down the door to the bedroom. They enter the bedroom

500
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:19.400
<v Speaker 10>and they find the parents slaughtered. They can obviously tell

501
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:24.400
<v Speaker 10>that the parents were victims of a violent homicide, and

502
00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:27.160
<v Speaker 10>so they immediately called detectives who come out to the

503
00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:31.759
<v Speaker 10>crime scene and begin assessing the elements of it. Now,

504
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.880
<v Speaker 10>in the course of investigating the crime, it should be

505
00:30:34.920 --> 00:30:37.880
<v Speaker 10>pointed out that, as I'm sure most of your listeners know,

506
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:45.200
<v Speaker 10>most murders are predicated on fairly conventional motives like anger, jealousy, revenge,

507
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:48.160
<v Speaker 10>that sort of thing. These crimes were unusual, not only

508
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.480
<v Speaker 10>in the sense that they happened this very low crime upscale,

509
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 10>gated community, but also because there appeared to be absolutely

510
00:30:55.640 --> 00:31:01.799
<v Speaker 10>no motive to the crime. The detectives looked into Brocken

511
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:07.880
<v Speaker 10>Divina Houstad's backgrounds early on, and they couldn't find any

512
00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:10.759
<v Speaker 10>links to known criminals, to any kind of problems in

513
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:13.000
<v Speaker 10>their background that might point at a suspect in the case.

514
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:17.279
<v Speaker 10>So the upshot was they had no leads in the case. Now,

515
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:20.319
<v Speaker 10>if we look at the evidence in the bedroom in retrospect,

516
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:22.599
<v Speaker 10>I think that there are some reasonable conclusions that we

517
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:28.759
<v Speaker 10>can draw. For example, the murders were not the result

518
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.440
<v Speaker 10>of a highly planned crime by some skilled master criminal.

519
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.960
<v Speaker 10>These were very impulsive murders. These were opportunistic murders. These

520
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:41.160
<v Speaker 10>were murders that were committed by a disorganized individual who

521
00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:44.480
<v Speaker 10>had no understanding of how evidence works. Just as an

522
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.519
<v Speaker 10>example of that, the murder weapon, which was a huge

523
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:52.000
<v Speaker 10>butcher knife that had been taken from the cutlery block

524
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.480
<v Speaker 10>in the houst Husted's kitchen, it had been left at

525
00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:59.359
<v Speaker 10>the crime scene. So not only had the murderer in

526
00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:02.079
<v Speaker 10>this case left the butcher knife he'd used to murder

527
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:05.079
<v Speaker 10>the victims lying on the floor behind them, literally with

528
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:07.839
<v Speaker 10>their blood and flesh all over it, he'd also left

529
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:11.079
<v Speaker 10>a living witness to the crime. I should also point

530
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:14.960
<v Speaker 10>out that when the detectives initially entered the bedroom, they

531
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:19.759
<v Speaker 10>saw blood droplets leading from the victims into the master bathroom,

532
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:23.279
<v Speaker 10>and they noticed that the same blood droplets were around

533
00:32:23.319 --> 00:32:26.880
<v Speaker 10>the kitchen of the bathroom sink area. So the detective

534
00:32:26.920 --> 00:32:30.680
<v Speaker 10>started to surmise that somehow, in the commission of the crimes,

535
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:35.319
<v Speaker 10>the offender's hand had gotten slippery with the blood of

536
00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.119
<v Speaker 10>his victims, it had slipped off the knife he had

537
00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:41.720
<v Speaker 10>cut himself on the knife's blade, and then he had

538
00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:44.480
<v Speaker 10>rushed into the bathroom to wash his hands. And as

539
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.079
<v Speaker 10>it turns out that that conjecture turned out to be

540
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:49.599
<v Speaker 10>right on the money.

541
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:52.720
<v Speaker 8>The other thing that we didn't mention was that there's

542
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:57.079
<v Speaker 8>a sexual component to this, and I will ask if

543
00:32:57.160 --> 00:33:02.160
<v Speaker 8>police were sidetracked by that even for a moment or

544
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:09.279
<v Speaker 8>at all. But the white's top was off, and then

545
00:33:09.319 --> 00:33:13.519
<v Speaker 8>they did find a green hand towel in the washroom

546
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.680
<v Speaker 8>that had semen and some other blood as well. So

547
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:21.160
<v Speaker 8>tell us about the state of her, and also tell

548
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:25.359
<v Speaker 8>us about how many stab wounds between the two.

549
00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:31.960
<v Speaker 10>More than there were more than sixty stab wounds inflicted

550
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:35.559
<v Speaker 10>on the victims. Brocustead was stabbed no less than twenty

551
00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:40.440
<v Speaker 10>five times, mostly in the abdomen. Davina Hustad was stabbed

552
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:45.319
<v Speaker 10>nearly fifty times, and her stab wounds ranged from her

553
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:49.799
<v Speaker 10>abdomen to her neck, to her throat to her head.

554
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.880
<v Speaker 10>They were grizzly wounds. One of the stab wounds went

555
00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:58.880
<v Speaker 10>through her ear. Another stab wound went through her cheek

556
00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:01.920
<v Speaker 10>and actually opened up a really sickening gash inside her mouth.

557
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:09.320
<v Speaker 10>Other stab wounds were delivered to her neck area. Now,

558
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:12.719
<v Speaker 10>you're right, there was a definite sexual component to this crime,

559
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:16.320
<v Speaker 10>and the detectives were sensitive to that as soon as

560
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:20.480
<v Speaker 10>they walked into the bedroom that night Divina Houstad. Prior

561
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:22.280
<v Speaker 10>to the murders, she'd been sitting in her living room

562
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:27.159
<v Speaker 10>and she'd been wearing sort of two layers of tank tops,

563
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.320
<v Speaker 10>and as I pointed out before, those tank tops had

564
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:33.159
<v Speaker 10>been left on the kitchen island and in the hallway

565
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:34.519
<v Speaker 10>of the hallway of the home.

566
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:35.199
<v Speaker 1>Well.

567
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:37.280
<v Speaker 10>When detectives entered the bedroom, they noticed that she was

568
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:43.079
<v Speaker 10>totally topless, which of course revealed her pregnancy in very

569
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:48.760
<v Speaker 10>obvious detail. And so when Divina and brock Eustad were

570
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:51.719
<v Speaker 10>removed from the home and taken to the County Morgue,

571
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:55.280
<v Speaker 10>they were swabbed as homicide victims usually are in the

572
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:59.159
<v Speaker 10>course of autopsies, and the medical examiner found a quantity

573
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:03.719
<v Speaker 10>of seamen inside Divina Hustead's mouth, which sealed the deal

574
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.719
<v Speaker 10>on the fact that she had been sexually assaulted in

575
00:35:06.840 --> 00:35:10.719
<v Speaker 10>the commission of the tragic murders and as far as

576
00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:14.760
<v Speaker 10>the towel is concerned. When detectives entered the bedroom, they

577
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 10>noticed that there was a towel that had been left

578
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:22.280
<v Speaker 10>on Divina Husteed's shoulder. So, if you can imagine, Brock

579
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:25.000
<v Speaker 10>Hustead is dead, flat on his back in the corner

580
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:27.800
<v Speaker 10>of the bedroom, his hand is stretched out to the

581
00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.880
<v Speaker 10>right toward his bed. His wife was literally slaughtered right

582
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:32.800
<v Speaker 10>on top of him. In crime scene photos, you can

583
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:37.079
<v Speaker 10>tell that she had fallen on her left side, so

584
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:41.440
<v Speaker 10>that her torso was basically covering her husband's outstretched right foot.

585
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:46.519
<v Speaker 10>Well in leaving the home, it appears that the murderer

586
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:50.880
<v Speaker 10>in this case had dried his hands after he'd cut

587
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:54.599
<v Speaker 10>himself on the knife while stabbing Divina Hustead, and he'd

588
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.599
<v Speaker 10>also dried himself after committing his sexual assault. So when

589
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:02.159
<v Speaker 10>detectives found this green hand towel on Divini Houstead's back,

590
00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:06.559
<v Speaker 10>they found not only her blood in significant quantities, they

591
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:10.599
<v Speaker 10>also found the unknown offender's blood in significant quantities and

592
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:14.760
<v Speaker 10>seamen down along the bottom fringe of the towel, And

593
00:36:14.840 --> 00:36:19.599
<v Speaker 10>so that provided some extremely incriminating forensic evidence for detectives

594
00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:20.039
<v Speaker 10>to work with.

595
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:26.599
<v Speaker 8>Now, with that forensic evidence, they have CODIS, and so

596
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:30.039
<v Speaker 8>they were anxious to see what could happen in putting

597
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:32.519
<v Speaker 8>it into CODIS what happened when they first put it

598
00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:33.159
<v Speaker 8>into codis.

599
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:39.039
<v Speaker 10>When the detectives sent the DNA samples to the California

600
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:42.159
<v Speaker 10>Department of Justice and those DNA samples were entered into COTIS,

601
00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:45.119
<v Speaker 10>there was no hit in the system. And it should

602
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.119
<v Speaker 10>be pointed out that since two thousand and nine, California

603
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:52.559
<v Speaker 10>has expanded its forensic database to the third largest in

604
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:55.119
<v Speaker 10>the world. It's a very comprehensive database at this point,

605
00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:57.440
<v Speaker 10>and at the time there were a lot of reference

606
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:02.039
<v Speaker 10>samples in it of known felons, convicted sex offenders, and

607
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:05.719
<v Speaker 10>so forth. But when the forensic example from the Faria

608
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:08.679
<v Speaker 10>murders was sent to the California Department of Justice lab,

609
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:15.239
<v Speaker 10>it did not register quote unquote hit in the system.

610
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:19.800
<v Speaker 8>Now, how do police proceed with this? Because, as you

611
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:24.159
<v Speaker 8>mentioned briefly, it didn't look like there was any leads

612
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.039
<v Speaker 8>in terms of the lifestyle that both of these people

613
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:31.679
<v Speaker 8>led as exemplary lives and very low, low risk lifestyles

614
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:34.840
<v Speaker 8>that would not invite anything like this. So how do

615
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:40.199
<v Speaker 8>police proceed after this very mysterious, high profile and fear

616
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:43.840
<v Speaker 8>inducing murder in this very tranquil community.

617
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.119
<v Speaker 10>And you're absolutely right, these crimes did strike fear in

618
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:51.039
<v Speaker 10>the hearts of community members. People were restless, they were

619
00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:54.280
<v Speaker 10>on edge, they were terrified. They were barricading their homes

620
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:58.760
<v Speaker 10>in the aftermath of this crime. Detectives in cases like

621
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:02.559
<v Speaker 10>this go out. They candice neighborhood. They look for anyone

622
00:38:02.599 --> 00:38:06.320
<v Speaker 10>in the area who might not have belonged there. They

623
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:09.840
<v Speaker 10>look for suspicious persons reports, they look for prowler reports.

624
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.599
<v Speaker 10>They look into the victims' backgrounds to determine whether or

625
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:16.440
<v Speaker 10>not there could be any connection between victim and killer.

626
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:18.159
<v Speaker 10>And I should point out as you as I'm sure

627
00:38:18.199 --> 00:38:22.880
<v Speaker 10>you know, there are. In almost in the overwhelming majority

628
00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:25.880
<v Speaker 10>of cases, there is some sort of link between the

629
00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:28.840
<v Speaker 10>victim and his or her murderer, and that makes it

630
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:32.880
<v Speaker 10>easier for detectives to narrow down the suspect pool. As

631
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.079
<v Speaker 10>detectives worked through this case, it became increasingly apparent that

632
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.760
<v Speaker 10>they were working what's called what's known as a stranger murder,

633
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.960
<v Speaker 10>and that is a case in which someone unknown to

634
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:48.159
<v Speaker 10>the victims murders them. Stranger murders are notoriously difficult to solve,

635
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:51.719
<v Speaker 10>even in our even in our current era of advanced

636
00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:55.480
<v Speaker 10>forensic techniques DNA and so forth, it's still extremely difficult

637
00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:00.119
<v Speaker 10>for detectives to work stranger murders and produce results. It's

638
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:05.519
<v Speaker 10>in a timely manner. So in the course of investigating

639
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:10.400
<v Speaker 10>the Paria murders, the detectives started looking at whether or

640
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:14.559
<v Speaker 10>not a drifter along the highway near their home might

641
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:18.079
<v Speaker 10>have broken into the Housted home and murdered them. On

642
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:24.119
<v Speaker 10>a whim. It's worth pointing out that the socioeconomic demographics

643
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:26.519
<v Speaker 10>of the Frea area are a little bit unusual and

644
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:31.039
<v Speaker 10>a little bit unique. I've i mentioned before that Faria

645
00:39:31.119 --> 00:39:35.519
<v Speaker 10>Beach Colony is the gated neighborhood where the Housteads lived

646
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:39.320
<v Speaker 10>at the time of their murder. It's an extremely upscale community.

647
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 10>The homes in their range and price I would say

648
00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:45.679
<v Speaker 10>from probably the low millions to the you know, to

649
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:49.519
<v Speaker 10>maybe up to ten million dollars. But just outside Faria

650
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:53.360
<v Speaker 10>Beach Colony, outside this gated community is Pacific Coast Highway,

651
00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:56.760
<v Speaker 10>and there are big empty stretches of Pacific Coast Highways

652
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:01.400
<v Speaker 10>run along the Pacific Coast, and people who live in

653
00:40:01.639 --> 00:40:05.440
<v Speaker 10>RVs or vans or other vehicles that have been converted

654
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:10.079
<v Speaker 10>for nomadic living live along the coast during the year.

655
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 10>It's a fairly popular thing to do. It's completely legal,

656
00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:17.840
<v Speaker 10>and there are little RV lots along the coast as

657
00:40:17.840 --> 00:40:21.199
<v Speaker 10>well that allow nomadic travelers with no connection to the

658
00:40:21.239 --> 00:40:23.760
<v Speaker 10>local area to live there. So the fact that you

659
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:28.840
<v Speaker 10>had this large migratory population constantly moving through Farrea just

660
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:34.360
<v Speaker 10>compounded the difficulties Ventura County Sheriff's detectives were already facing

661
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:38.239
<v Speaker 10>in trying to resolve this murder. They looked at whether

662
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:41.199
<v Speaker 10>or not anyone in an RV or anyone who was

663
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:43.679
<v Speaker 10>coming through the area temporarily might have been responsible for

664
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.360
<v Speaker 10>the murders. They couldn't make any progress in that direction.

665
00:40:46.599 --> 00:40:48.719
<v Speaker 10>They looked, as I said before, into the backgrounds and

666
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:52.199
<v Speaker 10>brought into being Houston. They couldn't find anything there. And

667
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:57.360
<v Speaker 10>as the days and weeks and months dragged on, the

668
00:40:57.480 --> 00:41:02.199
<v Speaker 10>tension in the community and the frustration of the family

669
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.039
<v Speaker 10>members was just compounded.

670
00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:12.280
<v Speaker 8>Now tell us about things being compounded. When Wendy the

671
00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:17.280
<v Speaker 8>Rodeo is killed in what some people thought might be

672
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:22.440
<v Speaker 8>similar circumstances in the same area. And this is in June,

673
00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:25.119
<v Speaker 8>So tell us what happens with Wendy de Rodeo.

674
00:41:26.440 --> 00:41:29.679
<v Speaker 10>So the Faria murders happen on May twentieth, two thousand

675
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:32.679
<v Speaker 10>and nine, at some time between ten pm and ten

676
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:35.719
<v Speaker 10>thirty pm, in the aftermath of the crime. Like I

677
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:40.000
<v Speaker 10>said before, the community is completely on edge. There's a

678
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:43.039
<v Speaker 10>high degree of anxiety in the community. People are frightened,

679
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:46.719
<v Speaker 10>people are terrified. So, in an attempt to assuage some

680
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:51.840
<v Speaker 10>of the community fear, the Venture County Sheriff's Department organizes

681
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:54.719
<v Speaker 10>a community meeting at this fire station in Rencon Beach,

682
00:41:54.760 --> 00:41:57.239
<v Speaker 10>which is just up the coast from Faria. It's just

683
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:01.840
<v Speaker 10>a few miles up the coast from Farrea. At the

684
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:06.840
<v Speaker 10>firehouse community meeting, the sheriff's detectives tell the community members,

685
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:08.800
<v Speaker 10>we're really sorry. We don't have any leads in the case.

686
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:10.519
<v Speaker 10>We can't tell you all that much about it because

687
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:13.519
<v Speaker 10>it's obviously it's an ongoing, active investigation, and we don't

688
00:42:13.519 --> 00:42:16.840
<v Speaker 10>want to divulge too many details lest we compromise the

689
00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:21.000
<v Speaker 10>integrity of the investigation. But they said, we don't have

690
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:23.360
<v Speaker 10>any reason to believe that anyone else is in danger.

691
00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:25.960
<v Speaker 10>If you keep an eye out on your property, if

692
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:28.960
<v Speaker 10>you keep your doors locked, if you're aware of your surroundings,

693
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:31.679
<v Speaker 10>we believe that this was an isolated event. You have

694
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:34.840
<v Speaker 10>nothing to fear well, as you pointed out a moment ago.

695
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.159
<v Speaker 10>On June third, two thousand and nine, just a couple

696
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:44.119
<v Speaker 10>of days after this firehouse community meeting takes place, Venturrea

697
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:47.159
<v Speaker 10>County residents wake up to news that a woman named

698
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:51.719
<v Speaker 10>Wendy de Rodeo, who was a forty something year old

699
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:57.519
<v Speaker 10>licensed therapist and author, had been slaughtered by knife in

700
00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:00.760
<v Speaker 10>her bedroom in Venture Keys, which is exactly the same

701
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:04.519
<v Speaker 10>neighborhood where the Huestads lived. Now as a really eerie coincidence,

702
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:08.119
<v Speaker 10>the Derodeo home was only about fifty yards as the

703
00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:12.719
<v Speaker 10>crow flies from the former Housted residents. So of course

704
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:16.320
<v Speaker 10>this plunges the entire community back into a state of

705
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:20.960
<v Speaker 10>high anxiety. People are worried, and as I learned through

706
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:24.280
<v Speaker 10>sources in the course of my investigation, police were extremely

707
00:43:24.320 --> 00:43:27.840
<v Speaker 10>worried at this time too. Here they had two bedroom

708
00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:32.559
<v Speaker 10>knife murders, they had no suspects. The police had reason

709
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.960
<v Speaker 10>to believe that the Derodeo murder was not connected to

710
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.679
<v Speaker 10>the Faria homicide. However, at the time they couldn't go

711
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:42.440
<v Speaker 10>into a lot of details because neither case had been solved.

712
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:44.559
<v Speaker 10>They couldn't go into a lot of details about why

713
00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:48.920
<v Speaker 10>they believed that was the case. So, between the multiple

714
00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:53.280
<v Speaker 10>violent crimes that had happened in this otherwise tranquil County

715
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:56.920
<v Speaker 10>and the lack of good information that was coming out

716
00:43:56.920 --> 00:44:00.639
<v Speaker 10>of local law enforcement agencies, the community was on edge.

717
00:44:00.679 --> 00:44:03.599
<v Speaker 10>People were frightened. People were buying guns, people were buying

718
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:06.480
<v Speaker 10>burglar alarm systems, people were putting motion sensors on the

719
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:09.880
<v Speaker 10>lights around their homes, they were barricading themselves in at night.

720
00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:13.119
<v Speaker 10>And it's quite a contrast from what Ventura County had

721
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:17.679
<v Speaker 10>experienced prior to that, where literally people in this world

722
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:24.760
<v Speaker 10>of worlds felt comfortable leaving their doors unlocked at night.

723
00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:30.679
<v Speaker 8>Now, so to compound again, what's going on, we have

724
00:44:30.760 --> 00:44:36.000
<v Speaker 8>a series of a bandit robbing people in the area,

725
00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:40.239
<v Speaker 8>terrorizing the area, and you bring this and you tell

726
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:45.199
<v Speaker 8>this story because there's a description of the person doing

727
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:49.360
<v Speaker 8>these robberies, and tell us what that description is.

728
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:55.440
<v Speaker 10>So, after Wendy de Rodeo was murdered on June third,

729
00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:59.280
<v Speaker 10>two thousand and nine, there appears to be no progress

730
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:03.000
<v Speaker 10>being made into investigation of her murder. Her murder was

731
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:06.239
<v Speaker 10>investigated by the Ventura Police Department because she lived within

732
00:45:06.280 --> 00:45:09.079
<v Speaker 10>the city limits of Ventura. The Ventura County Sheriff's Department,

733
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:11.960
<v Speaker 10>who is investigating the Housteed homicide just a few miles

734
00:45:12.039 --> 00:45:15.119
<v Speaker 10>up the coast, is making no progress with their case.

735
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.559
<v Speaker 10>So skip ahead a couple of months to September twenty third.

736
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:25.880
<v Speaker 10>Excuse me to September of two thousand and nine. Cashier

737
00:45:26.199 --> 00:45:29.119
<v Speaker 10>working at a Shell gas station on Harbor Boulevard in

738
00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:33.519
<v Speaker 10>the city of Ventura is manning his post. It's mid evening,

739
00:45:33.519 --> 00:45:35.719
<v Speaker 10>I would say, probably around eight or nine o'clock at night.

740
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:41.559
<v Speaker 10>Out of nowhere, this robber barrels through the door, brandishing

741
00:45:41.559 --> 00:45:47.559
<v Speaker 10>a black semi automatic can gun, orders the gas station

742
00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:51.679
<v Speaker 10>cashier to the floor, cleans out the register, and sprints

743
00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:55.360
<v Speaker 10>back through the doors and disappears into the night. And

744
00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:00.079
<v Speaker 10>over the coming weeks in September, this bandit strikes no

745
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:03.559
<v Speaker 10>less than four more times. He hits three more small

746
00:46:03.559 --> 00:46:09.440
<v Speaker 10>businesses in Ventura, and he's finally suspected of committing another

747
00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:13.039
<v Speaker 10>gas station robbery in the city in Santa Barbara County,

748
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.159
<v Speaker 10>just outside the Santa Barbara city limits. In all of

749
00:46:16.199 --> 00:46:22.239
<v Speaker 10>the cases, the suspect and the robberies is described to

750
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:26.119
<v Speaker 10>detectives the same way. He's described as a white male

751
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:29.280
<v Speaker 10>approximately five feet nine five feet ten inches in height,

752
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:36.360
<v Speaker 10>athletic build, wearing dark clothing, wearing gloves, usually wearing some

753
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:41.599
<v Speaker 10>kind of face covering, speaking in sort of an angry

754
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:46.480
<v Speaker 10>to monotone voice, brandishing a black handgun. These aren't highly

755
00:46:46.480 --> 00:46:49.920
<v Speaker 10>sophisticated robberies. He's not able to access any of the

756
00:46:49.960 --> 00:46:53.320
<v Speaker 10>safes in these businesses. He just cleans out the cash register,

757
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:56.360
<v Speaker 10>stuffs the money in his pocket, sprints through the doors.

758
00:46:56.880 --> 00:47:00.199
<v Speaker 10>The Ventura Police Department, who has jurisdiction and all all

759
00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:04.920
<v Speaker 10>of the cases in their city, investigates the robberies thoroughly,

760
00:47:05.239 --> 00:47:09.119
<v Speaker 10>and they can't make any progress. Finally, on the evening

761
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.039
<v Speaker 10>of September twenty third, two thousand and nine, a gas

762
00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:17.159
<v Speaker 10>station attendant is working in Santa Barbara County on State Street, which,

763
00:47:17.199 --> 00:47:19.840
<v Speaker 10>for people who are in who know the area at all,

764
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:22.760
<v Speaker 10>it's one of the main drags that runs north south

765
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:25.440
<v Speaker 10>through the city of Santa Barbara. He's out on a

766
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:31.639
<v Speaker 10>relatively isolated stretch of north State Street, and just before

767
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:35.400
<v Speaker 10>he's ready to end his shift, a black clad, bankrupt

768
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:39.320
<v Speaker 10>black clad robber with a mask with a bandana mask

769
00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:43.400
<v Speaker 10>tied around his face accosts him in the parking lot,

770
00:47:43.400 --> 00:47:46.159
<v Speaker 10>accosts this gas station attendant in the parking lot, orders

771
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:48.760
<v Speaker 10>him back into the business, orders him to the floor,

772
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:55.800
<v Speaker 10>cleans out the cash register, and sprints from the business.

773
00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:58.920
<v Speaker 10>It was ultimately that crime that ended up making progress

774
00:47:58.920 --> 00:48:03.079
<v Speaker 10>in a lot of a lot of local investigations.

775
00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:07.199
<v Speaker 8>At the time. Too. They saw a Chevy trailblazer, but

776
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.480
<v Speaker 8>the one thing that was interesting it had no license plate.

777
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:16.360
<v Speaker 10>Right as after the gas station attendant in Santa Barbara

778
00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:20.159
<v Speaker 10>calls the Sheriff's department calls nine to one one. There

779
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:23.039
<v Speaker 10>are customers pulling into the gas station to get fuel

780
00:48:23.480 --> 00:48:27.199
<v Speaker 10>and they notice a light colored Chevy trailblazer pulling out

781
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:29.960
<v Speaker 10>of the parking lot turning west on State Street, and

782
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:34.239
<v Speaker 10>they noticed that it doesn't have any license plates attached

783
00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:37.199
<v Speaker 10>to it. And this is later confirmed when Santa Barbara

784
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:41.559
<v Speaker 10>County Sheriff's detectives go down to Ventura and they're able

785
00:48:41.639 --> 00:48:46.639
<v Speaker 10>to pull surveillance footage from an in and out burger

786
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:49.519
<v Speaker 10>in that city. It's worth noting that in the course

787
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:54.360
<v Speaker 10>of robbing the Santa Barbara gas station, the robber ended

788
00:48:54.440 --> 00:48:59.039
<v Speaker 10>up stealing the gas station attendant's wallet and then in

789
00:48:59.079 --> 00:49:01.840
<v Speaker 10>the hours after the crime. That night, on September twenty third,

790
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:05.960
<v Speaker 10>two thousand and nine, the Santa Barbara gas station robber

791
00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:08.400
<v Speaker 10>went to an in and out Burger in the city

792
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:11.840
<v Speaker 10>of Ventura and used the gas station attendants credit card

793
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:14.800
<v Speaker 10>to buy a meal. Well, as soon as that fact

794
00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:17.920
<v Speaker 10>came to light, the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department, who were

795
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:20.760
<v Speaker 10>investigating the robbery, went down to Ventura. They pulled the

796
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.280
<v Speaker 10>surveillance tapes and they noticed that the Chevy Trailblazer indeed

797
00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:28.000
<v Speaker 10>did not have any license plates affixed to its front

798
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:29.360
<v Speaker 10>or rear bumpers.

799
00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:35.599
<v Speaker 8>Now, they just as you're say in the book, they

800
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.480
<v Speaker 8>still hit a dead end despite these sort of leads.

801
00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:40.159
<v Speaker 8>They still hit a dead end in both of these

802
00:49:40.320 --> 00:49:43.480
<v Speaker 8>murders or all of these murders, don't they.

803
00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:44.559
<v Speaker 10>That's exactly right.

804
00:49:46.679 --> 00:49:51.960
<v Speaker 8>Now, let's talk about introduce Josh Packer, talk about Randy Packer.

805
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:57.039
<v Speaker 8>Is we won't talk about the whole incredible tragedy that

806
00:49:57.320 --> 00:50:01.360
<v Speaker 8>was Josh's life, but let's talk about some of the

807
00:50:01.400 --> 00:50:05.280
<v Speaker 8>beginning of it with his father, Randy Packer and his

808
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:08.800
<v Speaker 8>mother Terry Williamson. And this is a person that you

809
00:50:08.920 --> 00:50:11.679
<v Speaker 8>interviewed at length and the access that you have and

810
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:14.880
<v Speaker 8>provide in this book is incredible. So tell us about

811
00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:21.440
<v Speaker 8>Terry Williamson and Jack Packer and basically Josh Packer's early

812
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:24.880
<v Speaker 8>life and his not so auspicious beginnings.

813
00:50:25.880 --> 00:50:29.559
<v Speaker 10>Right. So, as you pointed out a second ago, the

814
00:50:29.679 --> 00:50:33.800
<v Speaker 10>Ventura County Sheriff's Department is completely baffled by the Paria

815
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:37.519
<v Speaker 10>murders in late two thousand and nine. The Ventura Police Department,

816
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.800
<v Speaker 10>the homicide unit, is completely baffled as to Wendy de

817
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:44.360
<v Speaker 10>Rodeo's murder in the fall of two thousand and nine.

818
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:47.400
<v Speaker 10>The Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department and the robbery detail

819
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:50.119
<v Speaker 10>of the Ventura Pede are completely at a loss as

820
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:52.639
<v Speaker 10>to who their serial robber is, who's been robbing all

821
00:50:52.679 --> 00:50:55.960
<v Speaker 10>of these small businesses, But they do have one clue.

822
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:58.840
<v Speaker 10>In addition to the eyewitnesses who had seen the robber

823
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:03.360
<v Speaker 10>in his disguise, they know that the suspect was driving

824
00:51:03.519 --> 00:51:07.239
<v Speaker 10>this light colored Chevy trailblazer that didn't have any license

825
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:10.960
<v Speaker 10>plates attached to it. So one night, as these two

826
00:51:11.079 --> 00:51:15.320
<v Speaker 10>Ventura police officers are patrolling their beat, they notice this

827
00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:20.320
<v Speaker 10>trailblazer literally blazing along one of the streets in Ventura.

828
00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:23.679
<v Speaker 10>So they decide to execute a vehicle stop and pull

829
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:26.159
<v Speaker 10>it over, and as they're pulling the vehicle over, one

830
00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:29.920
<v Speaker 10>of the officers remembers an attempt to identify poster, which,

831
00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:32.480
<v Speaker 10>for those who may not know, an attempt to identify

832
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:37.119
<v Speaker 10>poster is a poster that's compiled by one law enforcement

833
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:41.199
<v Speaker 10>agency who's seeking an outstanding suspect, and it's disseminated to

834
00:51:41.239 --> 00:51:44.920
<v Speaker 10>other law enforcement agencies throughout the state. And the hope

835
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:49.000
<v Speaker 10>is that by broadcasting this attempt identify poster far and wide,

836
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.360
<v Speaker 10>another officer, another member of the law enforcement community, will

837
00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:56.920
<v Speaker 10>recognize something about the suspect and be able to provide

838
00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:59.280
<v Speaker 10>a tip that will ultimately lead to the apprehension of

839
00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:03.199
<v Speaker 10>that suspec. So these two Ventura police officers, after they've

840
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:06.639
<v Speaker 10>stopped the Chevy Trailblazer, they remember this, this attempt identify

841
00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:08.639
<v Speaker 10>poster that had been sent down a couple of days

842
00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:11.840
<v Speaker 10>earlier by the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's Department. And in

843
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:16.119
<v Speaker 10>that attempt identify poster, the Santa Barbara detectives indicated that

844
00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:20.000
<v Speaker 10>they were looking for a white male suspect who was

845
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:26.079
<v Speaker 10>driving a Chevy trailblazer. Now, when the Venturipede officers stop

846
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:29.559
<v Speaker 10>the speeding trailblazer, they noticed that it does have it

847
00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:32.000
<v Speaker 10>does have license plates affixed to its bumpers, so it's

848
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:34.320
<v Speaker 10>in compliance in that regard. But when they get up

849
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:36.639
<v Speaker 10>to the window, they look down at the driver and

850
00:52:36.679 --> 00:52:40.119
<v Speaker 10>they noticed that he is a young white male. He

851
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:42.559
<v Speaker 10>has kind of a stocky build. He's about five feet

852
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:45.840
<v Speaker 10>eight five feet nine inches tall, and in fact, he

853
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:48.639
<v Speaker 10>had been a former football star for the Ventura High

854
00:52:48.679 --> 00:52:52.199
<v Speaker 10>School Cougar's football team just a couple of years earlier.

855
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:56.000
<v Speaker 10>When they grab his driver's license and they run it,

856
00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:58.199
<v Speaker 10>they can't find any outstanding warrants on him, but they

857
00:52:58.199 --> 00:52:59.960
<v Speaker 10>do make note of the fact that he had turned

858
00:53:00.000 --> 00:53:03.199
<v Speaker 10>I'm twenty years old, just a couple of days prior

859
00:53:03.320 --> 00:53:09.639
<v Speaker 10>to the stop. So, doing their due diligence, the officers,

860
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:13.320
<v Speaker 10>after they write a citation for the speeding driver and

861
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:17.400
<v Speaker 10>turn him loose, they contact the Santa Barbara County Sheriff's

862
00:53:17.400 --> 00:53:21.079
<v Speaker 10>Department and they say, listen, this may be nothing, but

863
00:53:21.280 --> 00:53:24.199
<v Speaker 10>we pulled over a guy a couple of days ago

864
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:28.360
<v Speaker 10>for speeding down here. He drives trailblazer, and he's known

865
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:32.239
<v Speaker 10>as kind of a local ruffian. He's had some brushes

866
00:53:32.280 --> 00:53:35.119
<v Speaker 10>with the law, nothing extremely serious, but we just wanted

867
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:36.920
<v Speaker 10>to pass this along to you to see if it

868
00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:40.880
<v Speaker 10>might aid you in your robbery investigation. Santa Barbara County

869
00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:46.119
<v Speaker 10>detectives say thank you, and they do begin investigating the driver. Now,

870
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:49.719
<v Speaker 10>the driver's name is Joshua. What is a Joshua Graham Packer?

871
00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:54.199
<v Speaker 10>And as you mentioned a second ago, his beginnings were

872
00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:59.039
<v Speaker 10>extremely inauspicious, to say the least. His parents met in

873
00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:02.679
<v Speaker 10>a psyche patric hospital when they were teenagers. They both

874
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.360
<v Speaker 10>grew up in the Cincinnati, Ohio area, and both of

875
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:09.039
<v Speaker 10>his parents were committed for one reason or another to

876
00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:14.280
<v Speaker 10>a Cincinnati psychiatric hospital. His mother was fifteen at the time,

877
00:54:14.440 --> 00:54:17.159
<v Speaker 10>his father was seventeen, and they were both locked up

878
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:21.719
<v Speaker 10>for I think I think his father was in for

879
00:54:21.880 --> 00:54:25.559
<v Speaker 10>schizophrenia treatment. His mother was in because she just couldn't

880
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:30.480
<v Speaker 10>get along at home with her father and stepmother. So eventually,

881
00:54:30.519 --> 00:54:32.960
<v Speaker 10>after a long series of events that I leigh out

882
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:37.239
<v Speaker 10>in very meticulous detail in the book, his mother and

883
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:39.440
<v Speaker 10>father decided to get married. His mother was in a

884
00:54:39.559 --> 00:54:43.719
<v Speaker 10>very abusive situation prior to that, his father and I

885
00:54:43.760 --> 00:54:46.760
<v Speaker 10>suppose needed someone to help give his life some ballast,

886
00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:50.679
<v Speaker 10>and so, in an attempt to provide some stability for

887
00:54:50.719 --> 00:54:55.079
<v Speaker 10>each other, his mother, Terry Williamson, and Josh Packer's father,

888
00:54:55.239 --> 00:54:59.360
<v Speaker 10>Randy Packer, decided to get married. Terry Williamson married Randy

889
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:05.920
<v Speaker 10>Packer two days after her seventeenth birthday, and as she

890
00:55:06.039 --> 00:55:09.239
<v Speaker 10>explained to me during our many, many many hours of interviews,

891
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:12.480
<v Speaker 10>she was actually married with bruises on her wrist. She

892
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:17.960
<v Speaker 10>told me that Randy Packer was very abusive to her. So, anyway,

893
00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:21.159
<v Speaker 10>to make a long story short, eventually the Packers decide

894
00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:25.159
<v Speaker 10>to leave Cincinnati. Both of them had many bad memories there.

895
00:55:25.239 --> 00:55:28.199
<v Speaker 10>By this time, they have a baby, Josh's older sister, Shauna,

896
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:31.280
<v Speaker 10>and they decide, like so many people before them, to

897
00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:34.199
<v Speaker 10>seek their manifest destiny out here on the West coast.

898
00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:38.199
<v Speaker 10>So they pack up their aging car, they bundle up

899
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:40.559
<v Speaker 10>their baby, They get on the freeway and they start

900
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:44.639
<v Speaker 10>making their way west, and about three weeks later, they

901
00:55:45.480 --> 00:55:49.519
<v Speaker 10>end up in Ventura, completely random. They had no intention

902
00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:52.000
<v Speaker 10>of ever visiting Ventura. They didn't know anything about the place,

903
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:55.360
<v Speaker 10>but that's where their car broke down. So they were

904
00:55:55.400 --> 00:55:59.159
<v Speaker 10>taken into a homeless shelter along with their daughter Shauna,

905
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.920
<v Speaker 10>and from there they began to build a live for

906
00:56:03.360 --> 00:56:08.320
<v Speaker 10>a life for themselves in the city of Ventura, and

907
00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 10>that was pretty much. That was where Josh Packer was

908
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:15.960
<v Speaker 10>born on September in September of two thousand and September

909
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:20.320
<v Speaker 10>of nineteen eighty nine, and that was ultimately where he

910
00:56:20.440 --> 00:56:22.920
<v Speaker 10>was identified as a suspect in the Santa Barbara County

911
00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:24.519
<v Speaker 10>robbery twenty years later.

912
00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:31.480
<v Speaker 8>Now, part of his life is characterized by what happens

913
00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:33.920
<v Speaker 8>with his mother, and his mother is a crack addict

914
00:56:33.920 --> 00:56:39.159
<v Speaker 8>and methamphetamine addict and can't take care of him. At

915
00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:46.960
<v Speaker 8>different times, she foolishly meets people like Robert Miller who

916
00:56:48.239 --> 00:56:53.760
<v Speaker 8>claimed to want to mentor Josh. Again, we can't go

917
00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:56.840
<v Speaker 8>into all of it, but suffice to say that there

918
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:02.079
<v Speaker 8>are major incidents that I don't care. I'm very skeptical,

919
00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:07.119
<v Speaker 8>skeptical when I hear some of the reported abuse from

920
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:10.599
<v Speaker 8>some of these people at trial. But in this particular case,

921
00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:13.920
<v Speaker 8>based on your research, these are some incidents that you

922
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:17.639
<v Speaker 8>can't put aside and not factor in to the bigger picture.

923
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:21.880
<v Speaker 8>So tell us some of the major incidents that must

924
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:25.719
<v Speaker 8>have had something to do with shaping this guy's psyche.

925
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:28.559
<v Speaker 10>I couldn't agree with you more, Dan. When I hear

926
00:57:28.840 --> 00:57:32.159
<v Speaker 10>so many of these psychopaths in court attempting to excuse

927
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:38.119
<v Speaker 10>their homicidal behavior through childhood sob stories, I'm always repulsed

928
00:57:38.119 --> 00:57:40.280
<v Speaker 10>by it. But as you pointed out a second ago,

929
00:57:40.760 --> 00:57:44.320
<v Speaker 10>in this case, these events are well documented and they

930
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:48.360
<v Speaker 10>really do suggest that Josh Packer was on a one

931
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:54.199
<v Speaker 10>way track to oblivion from a very young age. When

932
00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:58.400
<v Speaker 10>Josh was still just a toddler, his parents broke up.

933
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:01.000
<v Speaker 10>By the time Josh was five years old, his parents

934
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:04.840
<v Speaker 10>had completely divorced, his father had abandoned the family in Ventura,

935
00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:09.039
<v Speaker 10>and Randy Packer had moved back to the Cincinnati Cincinnati area.

936
00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:13.199
<v Speaker 10>At the same time, his mother is becoming deeply involved

937
00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:17.599
<v Speaker 10>in the local drug culture of Ventura. She, as you

938
00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:20.239
<v Speaker 10>pointed out a second ago, she got hooked on meth amphetamine.

939
00:58:20.960 --> 00:58:23.679
<v Speaker 10>She was absent for much of Josh's young life. So

940
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:26.639
<v Speaker 10>Josh was growing up around very disreputable characters in the

941
00:58:26.679 --> 00:58:32.280
<v Speaker 10>Ventura area, And in the course of growing up around

942
00:58:32.440 --> 00:58:37.960
<v Speaker 10>drugs and crime and criminals and degenerates in the seedier

943
00:58:38.039 --> 00:58:42.280
<v Speaker 10>areas of Ventura, Josh Packer came into contact with hardcore

944
00:58:42.360 --> 00:58:45.360
<v Speaker 10>sex offenders, and just to give your listeners a thumbnail

945
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.760
<v Speaker 10>sketch of some of some of the things he experienced

946
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:51.239
<v Speaker 10>as a young child. I remember when I was talking

947
00:58:51.239 --> 00:58:53.920
<v Speaker 10>to Terry one night, one of the more chilling incidents

948
00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:56.840
<v Speaker 10>she described to me was the first time she tried

949
00:58:57.360 --> 00:59:01.440
<v Speaker 10>crystal meth. At the time, she, Shauna and Josh were

950
00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:06.679
<v Speaker 10>living with this hardcore drug addict criminal at a small

951
00:59:06.679 --> 00:59:10.719
<v Speaker 10>motel in Ventura. Cherry said that as soon as the

952
00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:13.559
<v Speaker 10>crystal meth, which was injected into her arm, as soon

953
00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:15.360
<v Speaker 10>as it hit her system, she said she felt her

954
00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:19.679
<v Speaker 10>brain just explode with this electric current like she'd never

955
00:59:19.760 --> 00:59:23.719
<v Speaker 10>experienced before. And she said that she basically locked the

956
00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:26.159
<v Speaker 10>kids in the little kitchenette they had in this hotel room,

957
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:28.920
<v Speaker 10>and then she in this degenerate with whom she was

958
00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:32.320
<v Speaker 10>living at the time, just using her own words, quote unquote,

959
00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:37.039
<v Speaker 10>just had sex for days. And of course at the time,

960
00:59:37.159 --> 00:59:39.440
<v Speaker 10>Josh and Shauna are about six or seven years old.

961
00:59:39.519 --> 00:59:43.679
<v Speaker 10>They get hungry, so these small children have to climb

962
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:45.840
<v Speaker 10>out the window of the motel and go to an

963
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:50.280
<v Speaker 10>old woman's home who's in the neighborhood, and the old

964
00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:52.679
<v Speaker 10>woman would feed the children she would play with them,

965
00:59:52.719 --> 00:59:57.119
<v Speaker 10>she'd look after them. But her son, this old woman

966
00:59:57.159 --> 01:00:00.840
<v Speaker 10>whom Josh and SHAWNA. Packer would see out in order

967
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:04.639
<v Speaker 10>to have their basic needs met, she was being looked

968
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:07.239
<v Speaker 10>after by her her son, who was in his sixties

969
01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:09.760
<v Speaker 10>at the time. Well, as it turns out, he ended

970
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:13.920
<v Speaker 10>up sexually assaulting Josh Packer when he was about six

971
01:00:14.000 --> 01:00:18.039
<v Speaker 10>years old, six or seven years old, and obviously that

972
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:20.519
<v Speaker 10>set Josh on a very bad course. Now added to this,

973
01:00:21.199 --> 01:00:24.079
<v Speaker 10>Terry becomes absent. Not long after it, Josh is sent

974
01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:28.199
<v Speaker 10>to live with one of Terry's former husbands, who assumes

975
01:00:28.199 --> 01:00:31.800
<v Speaker 10>custody of Josh and Shauna. I lay out in the

976
01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:34.119
<v Speaker 10>book exactly what occurred with him, which was no picnic

977
01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:36.719
<v Speaker 10>for Josh, a lot more abuse, a lot more exposure

978
01:00:36.760 --> 01:00:44.679
<v Speaker 10>to criminals, disfiguring injuries that he suffered in the quote

979
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:49.719
<v Speaker 10>unquote care of this this former husband of Terry's, and

980
01:00:50.199 --> 01:00:53.280
<v Speaker 10>finally Terry does get off drugs. Terry told me that

981
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:57.599
<v Speaker 10>she used drugs consistently for about three years. She was

982
01:00:57.679 --> 01:01:00.400
<v Speaker 10>largely absent from Josh's life during that period of time,

983
01:01:01.039 --> 01:01:03.679
<v Speaker 10>But finally, in nineteen ninety eight, Terry is able to

984
01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:06.760
<v Speaker 10>pull her life together, Terry saw someone murdered right in

985
01:01:06.840 --> 01:01:09.199
<v Speaker 10>front of her. Terry's explanation of that to me was

986
01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:12.119
<v Speaker 10>absolutely chilling, but she said that it did compel her

987
01:01:12.159 --> 01:01:14.280
<v Speaker 10>to get off drugs. So Terry gets off drugs. In

988
01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:18.760
<v Speaker 10>nineteen ninety eight, she goes back to her children in Ventura,

989
01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:22.480
<v Speaker 10>and not long after she moves back in with her

990
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:27.159
<v Speaker 10>children and her former husband, Josh is attacked in his

991
01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:31.039
<v Speaker 10>bedroom by a wanted sex offender, which is just another

992
01:01:31.159 --> 01:01:33.679
<v Speaker 10>surreal aside. Here is a child who has already been

993
01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:38.239
<v Speaker 10>sexually molested on multiple occasions, he suffered disfiguring injuries on

994
01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:42.320
<v Speaker 10>multiple occasions, and then he's attacked in his own bed

995
01:01:42.639 --> 01:01:44.519
<v Speaker 10>at the age of I think it was ten or

996
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:47.480
<v Speaker 10>eleven years old at the time. The suspect in that

997
01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:49.679
<v Speaker 10>case was finally caught after he tried to break into

998
01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:52.559
<v Speaker 10>another home on a different ninth but the damage had

999
01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:55.199
<v Speaker 10>been done. And one of the things I was able

1000
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:57.559
<v Speaker 10>to get access to in this case, which was enormously

1001
01:01:57.639 --> 01:02:01.880
<v Speaker 10>helpful in terms of compiling a comprehensive portrait of Josh Packer,

1002
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:04.239
<v Speaker 10>was I was able to get access to his full

1003
01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:08.360
<v Speaker 10>permanent record from the Ventura Unified School District and it's

1004
01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:11.480
<v Speaker 10>so obvious. I mean, Josh's school record is almost a

1005
01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:14.440
<v Speaker 10>perfect mirror of the traumas he was experiencing at home.

1006
01:02:14.519 --> 01:02:20.039
<v Speaker 10>During childhood, there were no severe behavioral issues, even during

1007
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:25.079
<v Speaker 10>the time when you know, Terry was still marginally involved

1008
01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:29.039
<v Speaker 10>with her son's life. But after Josh was attacked in

1009
01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:35.119
<v Speaker 10>that bedroom, he began to exhibit really, really violent a

1010
01:02:35.239 --> 01:02:38.119
<v Speaker 10>tendencies at school. When he was in fifth grade, he

1011
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:41.880
<v Speaker 10>was suspended for stabbing another child in the neck with

1012
01:02:41.920 --> 01:02:46.199
<v Speaker 10>a pencil. Throughout middle school, Josh had a lot of problems,

1013
01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:50.719
<v Speaker 10>and those problems actually ended up persisting into high school. Now,

1014
01:02:50.760 --> 01:02:53.480
<v Speaker 10>you mentioned the character whom I identify in the book

1015
01:02:53.480 --> 01:02:55.519
<v Speaker 10>as Robert Miller. That's not the man's real name, but

1016
01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:57.559
<v Speaker 10>that is the name I used for him in the book.

1017
01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:02.199
<v Speaker 10>Robert Miller was a youth worker in Ventura. He worked

1018
01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:05.920
<v Speaker 10>with the Boys and Girls Club of Ventura. So after

1019
01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:09.559
<v Speaker 10>Terry re entered Josh's life in nineteen ninety eight, Josh

1020
01:03:09.599 --> 01:03:12.800
<v Speaker 10>started spending time at the Ventura Boys and Girls Club. Well,

1021
01:03:12.840 --> 01:03:16.280
<v Speaker 10>this man, Robert Miller, approaches Terry and he says, listen,

1022
01:03:17.000 --> 01:03:18.960
<v Speaker 10>you know, I've been getting to know Josh throughout the

1023
01:03:19.000 --> 01:03:20.880
<v Speaker 10>time you know, he's been here at the Boys and

1024
01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:24.760
<v Speaker 10>Girls Club. It would really be my honor to serve

1025
01:03:25.000 --> 01:03:29.079
<v Speaker 10>as Josh's mentor. Now Here's Terry at the time, she's

1026
01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:32.679
<v Speaker 10>trying to recover from her narcotics addiction. She's trying to

1027
01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:35.840
<v Speaker 10>surmout at least in some way, you know, the terrible

1028
01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:38.480
<v Speaker 10>decisions she'd been making for several years up to that point.

1029
01:03:38.719 --> 01:03:41.960
<v Speaker 10>She has no education, she's on welfare, she's living in

1030
01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:46.480
<v Speaker 10>a very unstable situation. She has these two young children. Terry,

1031
01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:50.039
<v Speaker 10>in her own words, as she explained to me, said

1032
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:54.559
<v Speaker 10>that Miller's offer of assistance seemed like an absolute godsend.

1033
01:03:54.639 --> 01:03:57.199
<v Speaker 10>You know, here was an upstanding member of the community,

1034
01:03:57.199 --> 01:04:00.360
<v Speaker 10>a college graduate. She was blown away by his offer

1035
01:04:00.360 --> 01:04:04.440
<v Speaker 10>of assistance. And in fact, during his middle school and

1036
01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:08.480
<v Speaker 10>early high school years, Josh went and lived with Miller

1037
01:04:08.519 --> 01:04:10.159
<v Speaker 10>for a while, and as I explained in the book,

1038
01:04:10.719 --> 01:04:14.039
<v Speaker 10>there is extremely compelling evidence that Miller was less than

1039
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:18.159
<v Speaker 10>a shall we say, less than savory, less than positive

1040
01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:20.880
<v Speaker 10>influence on Josh's life.

1041
01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:25.119
<v Speaker 8>You also talk about an injury, a head injury, and

1042
01:04:25.159 --> 01:04:28.800
<v Speaker 8>again we talk about some things that might contribute to

1043
01:04:28.840 --> 01:04:31.400
<v Speaker 8>someone's behavior. Tell us a little bit about this head injury.

1044
01:04:32.920 --> 01:04:35.639
<v Speaker 10>So, when Josh was about eight years old, he was

1045
01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:41.599
<v Speaker 10>living with Terry's former husband in a converted garage in Ventura,

1046
01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:45.039
<v Speaker 10>and this converted garage had a wooden loft that was

1047
01:04:45.079 --> 01:04:50.519
<v Speaker 10>elevated about twenty feet above a hard concrete floor. So

1048
01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:53.639
<v Speaker 10>one night Josh, as Josh is sleeping on the floor

1049
01:04:53.719 --> 01:04:57.360
<v Speaker 10>of this elevated loft. Again, Terry is off using drugs,

1050
01:04:57.440 --> 01:05:01.239
<v Speaker 10>running with this wild criminal crowd. Her former husband is

1051
01:05:02.079 --> 01:05:06.559
<v Speaker 10>looking out for Josh's best Supposedly, as Josh is pausing

1052
01:05:06.599 --> 01:05:08.880
<v Speaker 10>and turning up there, he rolls to the edge of

1053
01:05:08.920 --> 01:05:12.559
<v Speaker 10>this loft and then tumbles more than twenty feet to

1054
01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:15.760
<v Speaker 10>the floor below. When he lands on the floor, he

1055
01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:20.360
<v Speaker 10>ends up cracking his skull open, and so the stepfather

1056
01:05:20.679 --> 01:05:23.559
<v Speaker 10>immediately bundles Josh up and rushes him to the emergency

1057
01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:29.679
<v Speaker 10>room at Venturre County Medical Center. Well, Josh actually experienced

1058
01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:32.400
<v Speaker 10>not only a fractured skull, but a very very severe

1059
01:05:32.440 --> 01:05:38.760
<v Speaker 10>concussion during the fall, and his stepfather was encouraged to

1060
01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:41.400
<v Speaker 10>bring Josh back for after care. Now, according to Terry,

1061
01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:44.519
<v Speaker 10>that after care never occurred. Josh has never given any

1062
01:05:44.519 --> 01:05:47.480
<v Speaker 10>further treatment after that one examination at the medical Center,

1063
01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:51.440
<v Speaker 10>And that is a very compelling detail of this story.

1064
01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:55.800
<v Speaker 10>I mean, we never know exactly why criminals commit offense

1065
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:58.960
<v Speaker 10>as they do. I think we can probably agree that

1066
01:05:59.079 --> 01:06:02.639
<v Speaker 10>crimes happen for for a large number of reasons. But

1067
01:06:03.159 --> 01:06:05.360
<v Speaker 10>you know, some of the research that's been done by

1068
01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:09.039
<v Speaker 10>people like Jonathan Pinkas wrote the book Base Instincts, an

1069
01:06:09.039 --> 01:06:12.960
<v Speaker 10>absolutely fabulous read. John Pincus is the head of neurology

1070
01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:16.159
<v Speaker 10>at the VA Hospital in Washington, d C. He's a

1071
01:06:16.159 --> 01:06:22.079
<v Speaker 10>professor of neurology at Georgetown University Med School. Pincus's research suggests,

1072
01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:25.159
<v Speaker 10>and know uncertain terms, that there is a causal link

1073
01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:29.559
<v Speaker 10>between childhood head injuries and violent behavior later in life.

1074
01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:32.039
<v Speaker 10>So in the course of reading about Josh Packer, it's

1075
01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:34.719
<v Speaker 10>worth keeping in mind that he did experience an extremely

1076
01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:39.880
<v Speaker 10>serious head injury after falling from that that converted garage loft.

1077
01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:44.800
<v Speaker 8>And as you explained too, I do believe that there's

1078
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:49.880
<v Speaker 8>such a thing as a confluence of influences. So many

1079
01:06:49.960 --> 01:06:54.199
<v Speaker 8>things in conjunction, and who knows how much they factor,

1080
01:06:54.280 --> 01:07:00.760
<v Speaker 8>but in this deadly combination, we'll say, you do have

1081
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:05.119
<v Speaker 8>some incredible stories about how Josh seems to have it

1082
01:07:05.159 --> 01:07:13.840
<v Speaker 8>all together despite this incredibly dysfunctional life. But then he's

1083
01:07:13.880 --> 01:07:17.079
<v Speaker 8>a football player, he excels in athletics. There are some

1084
01:07:17.199 --> 01:07:19.760
<v Speaker 8>attributes that he has that are to his benefit. But

1085
01:07:19.800 --> 01:07:22.920
<v Speaker 8>then everything falls apart and you talk about a girlfriend

1086
01:07:23.039 --> 01:07:27.000
<v Speaker 8>named Jennifer and when he tries to break off this relationship,

1087
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:29.679
<v Speaker 8>where she tries to break off the relationship, and his

1088
01:07:30.039 --> 01:07:33.079
<v Speaker 8>experimentation with fentanyl. So tell us a little bit about

1089
01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:38.559
<v Speaker 8>this story, and because it's very demonstrative of many things.

1090
01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:43.039
<v Speaker 10>It definitely is so. As I mentioned a moment ago,

1091
01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:46.280
<v Speaker 10>Josh had extreme behavioral problems all the way through middle school.

1092
01:07:46.360 --> 01:07:51.000
<v Speaker 10>Finally he ends up in a Ventura High school, and

1093
01:07:51.199 --> 01:07:54.599
<v Speaker 10>he's not an outstanding student. Josh Josh Packer is not

1094
01:07:54.679 --> 01:07:58.800
<v Speaker 10>an unintelligent person. Based on everything I've seen. He possesses

1095
01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:02.079
<v Speaker 10>at least average slightly above average intelligence at the very least.

1096
01:08:03.599 --> 01:08:05.519
<v Speaker 10>But when he goes to vent A High school, he's

1097
01:08:05.559 --> 01:08:07.760
<v Speaker 10>not much of a He's not much of an academic.

1098
01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:12.119
<v Speaker 10>He's interested in athletics, and that's fortunate for him because

1099
01:08:12.199 --> 01:08:15.199
<v Speaker 10>he is an outstanding athlete. Everyone with whom I spoke

1100
01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:18.840
<v Speaker 10>described Josh as perhaps one of the best athletes they've

1101
01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:23.119
<v Speaker 10>ever had in that area. He was a terrific varsity wrestler.

1102
01:08:23.159 --> 01:08:25.960
<v Speaker 10>He made the varsity wrestling team his freshman year. He

1103
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:30.000
<v Speaker 10>also made the varsity football team his freshman year. And

1104
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:33.119
<v Speaker 10>I have to say that, in looking at his life

1105
01:08:33.199 --> 01:08:38.079
<v Speaker 10>in total, Josh Packer's ability to overcome his childhood traumas

1106
01:08:38.079 --> 01:08:41.359
<v Speaker 10>in high school was very very impressive, and to his credit,

1107
01:08:41.439 --> 01:08:44.600
<v Speaker 10>he did take what appeared to be very substantive steps

1108
01:08:44.600 --> 01:08:47.039
<v Speaker 10>to try and come to terms of some of his demons.

1109
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:50.520
<v Speaker 10>For example, during high school, Josh became involved in this

1110
01:08:51.640 --> 01:08:56.760
<v Speaker 10>Christian youth group called Young Life, and it appears that

1111
01:08:56.800 --> 01:08:59.479
<v Speaker 10>he flourished in that group. He never had any behavioral problems,

1112
01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:04.199
<v Speaker 10>He never had any violent outbursts. He really tended to

1113
01:09:04.239 --> 01:09:06.920
<v Speaker 10>study scripture very heavily, and then of course when he

1114
01:09:06.960 --> 01:09:09.720
<v Speaker 10>would go to school, he would you know, be involved

1115
01:09:10.079 --> 01:09:13.600
<v Speaker 10>with the football team, the wrestling team, his classes. He

1116
01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:16.319
<v Speaker 10>was never an extraordinary student, but he did do well

1117
01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:18.119
<v Speaker 10>enough to get by in his classes and maintain his

1118
01:09:18.159 --> 01:09:23.520
<v Speaker 10>eligibility for athletics. Well, like you said, that all came

1119
01:09:24.479 --> 01:09:28.479
<v Speaker 10>to a very tragic end during Josh's senior year of

1120
01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:33.159
<v Speaker 10>high school. Like most students, Josh was during his senior year,

1121
01:09:33.199 --> 01:09:36.600
<v Speaker 10>he was looking toward college. He wanted to try and

1122
01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:39.560
<v Speaker 10>get an athletics scholarship to attend college to try and

1123
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:44.600
<v Speaker 10>apparently better his life. But Josh made a very very

1124
01:09:44.640 --> 01:09:50.039
<v Speaker 10>bad decision during his senior year. So during his senior year,

1125
01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:53.079
<v Speaker 10>Josh is working as a TA for one of the

1126
01:09:53.359 --> 01:09:56.800
<v Speaker 10>one of the coaches at the school, and on the

1127
01:09:56.840 --> 01:10:00.359
<v Speaker 10>way to his TA assignment, his teacher's assistant I'm at

1128
01:10:00.399 --> 01:10:03.439
<v Speaker 10>that day, Josh is approached in the hallways of Ventura

1129
01:10:03.560 --> 01:10:08.000
<v Speaker 10>High School by one of his friends and the friend says, hey, listen,

1130
01:10:08.039 --> 01:10:10.079
<v Speaker 10>you know I have this new drug. You want to

1131
01:10:10.079 --> 01:10:13.319
<v Speaker 10>give it a shot or something to that effect. And

1132
01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:16.319
<v Speaker 10>Josh asks what it is and the friend explains it's

1133
01:10:16.359 --> 01:10:20.840
<v Speaker 10>a time release narcotics patch that's given to cancer patients

1134
01:10:20.840 --> 01:10:22.720
<v Speaker 10>to help control their pain. Well, as it turns out,

1135
01:10:22.720 --> 01:10:25.760
<v Speaker 10>it was a drug called fentanyl. And for those who

1136
01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:29.359
<v Speaker 10>don't know, finanela is about one hundred times more potent

1137
01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:34.800
<v Speaker 10>than heroin. It's sort of a pharmaceutical grade synthetic opiate

1138
01:10:34.880 --> 01:10:38.359
<v Speaker 10>that's used to treat severe pain and cancer patients. Well,

1139
01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:42.640
<v Speaker 10>when Josh has offered this drug fintonyl, he thinks nothing

1140
01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:44.680
<v Speaker 10>of it. I mean, there's a little bit of evidence

1141
01:10:44.680 --> 01:10:47.359
<v Speaker 10>to suggest that Josh might have been experimenting with drugs

1142
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:51.600
<v Speaker 10>prior to that. But anyway, he takes the spin mil

1143
01:10:51.640 --> 01:10:53.479
<v Speaker 10>patch from his friend, He pops it in his mouth,

1144
01:10:53.680 --> 01:10:56.600
<v Speaker 10>he chews it up, he sucks down the medication, spits

1145
01:10:56.600 --> 01:10:59.039
<v Speaker 10>out the patch, and then walks to his TA assignment. Well,

1146
01:11:00.039 --> 01:11:02.000
<v Speaker 10>when he gets to that TA assignment, he can barely

1147
01:11:02.079 --> 01:11:06.039
<v Speaker 10>stand up. Time has slowed down, the walls are blurring,

1148
01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:09.439
<v Speaker 10>the room is dissolving around him. So Josh asks his teacher, listen,

1149
01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:11.439
<v Speaker 10>can I go to the back of the room and

1150
01:11:11.520 --> 01:11:13.159
<v Speaker 10>just put my head down for a couple of minutes.

1151
01:11:13.439 --> 01:11:16.479
<v Speaker 10>I'm not really feeling very well. So the teacher, you know, obviously,

1152
01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:19.680
<v Speaker 10>who's preoccupied with teaching the class and doing other things, says, yeah,

1153
01:11:19.720 --> 01:11:23.560
<v Speaker 10>no problem, So Josh. Josh staggers to the back of

1154
01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:27.039
<v Speaker 10>the room, takes a seat, puts his head down, and

1155
01:11:27.560 --> 01:11:31.159
<v Speaker 10>several minutes later, the teacher goes to check on Josh. Well,

1156
01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:34.279
<v Speaker 10>as I explained in the book, Josh has stopped breathing.

1157
01:11:34.600 --> 01:11:38.239
<v Speaker 10>He's overdosed on fentanyl in the classroom at Ventura High

1158
01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:42.439
<v Speaker 10>and paramedics are called. They rush him to the hospital.

1159
01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:46.159
<v Speaker 10>Josh is a young, strong, healthy athlete, so he's able

1160
01:11:46.159 --> 01:11:50.039
<v Speaker 10>to make a full recovery in terms of his physical health. Unfortunately,

1161
01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:53.640
<v Speaker 10>in terms of his status at Ventura High School, Josh's

1162
01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:57.199
<v Speaker 10>days were done. He was immediately ousted from the football team,

1163
01:11:57.720 --> 01:11:59.720
<v Speaker 10>and I think as the school gave more and more

1164
01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:04.479
<v Speaker 10>thought to the agnominous circumstances of Josh's overdose, he was

1165
01:12:04.520 --> 01:12:07.119
<v Speaker 10>asked to leave school, and he was asked to finish

1166
01:12:07.119 --> 01:12:10.600
<v Speaker 10>his high school graduation credits to local adult learning center.

1167
01:12:11.119 --> 01:12:14.479
<v Speaker 10>So here in one fell swoop, Josh has lost the

1168
01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:16.319
<v Speaker 10>social network that he was part of. He was a

1169
01:12:16.439 --> 01:12:18.520
<v Speaker 10>very popular student according to what I've been told at

1170
01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:21.760
<v Speaker 10>Dura High School, he was known to have a volatile personality,

1171
01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:24.600
<v Speaker 10>but again that was sort of aligned with his public

1172
01:12:24.680 --> 01:12:28.479
<v Speaker 10>persona as an athlete and as a sort of jock.

1173
01:12:30.439 --> 01:12:33.520
<v Speaker 10>And Josh has also lost his eligibility for getting a

1174
01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:36.239
<v Speaker 10>college scholarship. Josh's grades aren't good enough to get an

1175
01:12:36.279 --> 01:12:39.000
<v Speaker 10>academic scholarship to college. Now he's been kicked off the team,

1176
01:12:39.239 --> 01:12:41.199
<v Speaker 10>he's been asked to leave school, He's in an adult

1177
01:12:41.279 --> 01:12:47.720
<v Speaker 10>learning center, and Josh's Josh's horizons have just narrowed significantly.

1178
01:12:50.359 --> 01:12:57.079
<v Speaker 8>What's his relationship with Jennifer characterized, especially when she rebuffs him.

1179
01:12:57.880 --> 01:13:00.640
<v Speaker 10>Right so around this same time, I do use a

1180
01:13:00.640 --> 01:13:04.079
<v Speaker 10>pseudonym for the girl in the book. Josh has has

1181
01:13:04.279 --> 01:13:07.399
<v Speaker 10>a main squeeze and she is the daughter of a

1182
01:13:07.800 --> 01:13:12.399
<v Speaker 10>local law enforcement sergeant, a very good guy from everything

1183
01:13:12.439 --> 01:13:15.359
<v Speaker 10>I've been able to gather, and that, in fact, is

1184
01:13:15.399 --> 01:13:17.399
<v Speaker 10>the reason I changed the name of the book, was

1185
01:13:17.439 --> 01:13:23.159
<v Speaker 10>to help protect him. She is an extremely attractive girl,

1186
01:13:23.960 --> 01:13:27.760
<v Speaker 10>very very good looking, and apparently Josh is hit over

1187
01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:32.119
<v Speaker 10>heels about her. They dated for several years. She's two

1188
01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:36.840
<v Speaker 10>years older than he was than he is, and she

1189
01:13:36.960 --> 01:13:40.239
<v Speaker 10>lives in a really affluent section on the east side

1190
01:13:40.239 --> 01:13:44.760
<v Speaker 10>of Ventura. When I first visited that neighborhood just to

1191
01:13:44.840 --> 01:13:47.359
<v Speaker 10>check out where she lived, I noticed that, you know,

1192
01:13:47.399 --> 01:13:49.520
<v Speaker 10>not only was her house one of the nicest, nicest

1193
01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:52.520
<v Speaker 10>on the street, her her lawn was by far the

1194
01:13:52.760 --> 01:13:54.479
<v Speaker 10>greenest in the neighborhood, and I thought that that was

1195
01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:57.399
<v Speaker 10>sort of a perfect metaphor for how he must have

1196
01:13:57.479 --> 01:14:00.319
<v Speaker 10>viewed her. You know, she stood out even from all

1197
01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:03.560
<v Speaker 10>of the splendor around her. Apparently she really stood out

1198
01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:08.119
<v Speaker 10>to Josh. So anyway, after they begin dating, Josh immediately

1199
01:14:08.159 --> 01:14:11.039
<v Speaker 10>becomes very protective. Every time another guy will come up

1200
01:14:11.079 --> 01:14:18.199
<v Speaker 10>and talk to this girl, Josh will attack him, often physically. Also,

1201
01:14:18.319 --> 01:14:21.880
<v Speaker 10>around the same time, this girl's parents begin to notice

1202
01:14:21.960 --> 01:14:25.520
<v Speaker 10>that Josh is sitting outside their home or just down

1203
01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:28.720
<v Speaker 10>the street from their home in his car, watching their house,

1204
01:14:28.800 --> 01:14:30.840
<v Speaker 10>or he appears to be watching their house. He just

1205
01:14:30.880 --> 01:14:34.720
<v Speaker 10>sits there for hours on end and stairs and apparently

1206
01:14:35.640 --> 01:14:38.640
<v Speaker 10>the parents didn't quite know how to broach that subject

1207
01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:42.359
<v Speaker 10>with Josh. They from everything I've been told, they didn't

1208
01:14:42.399 --> 01:14:46.000
<v Speaker 10>have any major problems with him. But finally, at the

1209
01:14:46.079 --> 01:14:49.680
<v Speaker 10>end of the day, this girl decides that she and

1210
01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:53.359
<v Speaker 10>Josh need a little time apart. And according to what's

1211
01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:58.840
<v Speaker 10>on the permanent record here, when that happened, Josh threatened suicide.

1212
01:14:58.880 --> 01:15:01.600
<v Speaker 10>He threatened to kill himself, threatened to overdose on tills,

1213
01:15:02.199 --> 01:15:04.760
<v Speaker 10>and the girl was taken aback. She didn't know quite

1214
01:15:04.760 --> 01:15:06.319
<v Speaker 10>what to do. She was like a lot of women

1215
01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:08.600
<v Speaker 10>are when they're trapped in situations like that where their

1216
01:15:08.880 --> 01:15:12.039
<v Speaker 10>significant other is threatening to harm himself, yet she wants

1217
01:15:12.079 --> 01:15:15.079
<v Speaker 10>to break off the relationship because he's becoming overly possessive.

1218
01:15:17.199 --> 01:15:19.159
<v Speaker 10>She didn't know quite how to handle it, so they

1219
01:15:19.159 --> 01:15:21.680
<v Speaker 10>did break off their relationship. They did start to distance

1220
01:15:21.720 --> 01:15:24.960
<v Speaker 10>themselves distance, take a little bit of space from each other,

1221
01:15:25.359 --> 01:15:29.640
<v Speaker 10>but they did remain in slight contact with one another.

1222
01:15:30.399 --> 01:15:33.319
<v Speaker 8>One of the most interesting thing is that she gave

1223
01:15:33.399 --> 01:15:40.840
<v Speaker 8>him two and very important parting gifts. Tell us what

1224
01:15:41.039 --> 01:15:47.119
<v Speaker 8>those two very important and cherished parting gifts were to him.

1225
01:15:47.359 --> 01:15:51.399
<v Speaker 10>So after high school, Josh takes a job at a

1226
01:15:51.439 --> 01:15:54.920
<v Speaker 10>business called Baxter Pharmaceuticals. He's working as a security guard,

1227
01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:58.760
<v Speaker 10>and with his college dreams crushed, Josh is thinking about

1228
01:15:59.239 --> 01:16:02.239
<v Speaker 10>potentially inner the Marine Corps. He's expressed an interest in

1229
01:16:02.279 --> 01:16:05.039
<v Speaker 10>the military. Well, after he and this girl had broken

1230
01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:07.279
<v Speaker 10>up in high school, she decided to stay in Ventura

1231
01:16:07.359 --> 01:16:09.760
<v Speaker 10>after graduating fro High School as well, so they start

1232
01:16:09.800 --> 01:16:13.399
<v Speaker 10>to revive their relationship. Well, eventually they move into an

1233
01:16:13.439 --> 01:16:18.640
<v Speaker 10>apartment with Josh's old quote unquote mentor from the Boys

1234
01:16:18.680 --> 01:16:22.640
<v Speaker 10>and Girls Club of Ventura, Robert Miller. So here is

1235
01:16:22.680 --> 01:16:25.960
<v Speaker 10>this forty something year old man living in an apartment

1236
01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:28.760
<v Speaker 10>with you know, two kids, one of whom is nineteen

1237
01:16:28.840 --> 01:16:31.199
<v Speaker 10>years old Josh, and then his girlfriend is twenty one

1238
01:16:31.239 --> 01:16:35.920
<v Speaker 10>years old. I'm sure it probably sounded like a good

1239
01:16:36.000 --> 01:16:37.880
<v Speaker 10>idea at the time for these three people to live

1240
01:16:37.920 --> 01:16:41.840
<v Speaker 10>together in a two bedroom apartment in Ventura and split costs.

1241
01:16:41.880 --> 01:16:43.760
<v Speaker 10>But you know, I think, as most of us have

1242
01:16:43.840 --> 01:16:46.640
<v Speaker 10>realized over the years, roommate situations don't always work out

1243
01:16:46.680 --> 01:16:49.760
<v Speaker 10>as we would envision them. And so after about six

1244
01:16:49.800 --> 01:16:52.720
<v Speaker 10>weeks of living together, the girlfriend is to me to bail.

1245
01:16:54.520 --> 01:16:56.840
<v Speaker 10>They moved into the apartment together over there on the

1246
01:16:56.880 --> 01:17:00.520
<v Speaker 10>east side of Ventura in mid March of two thousand

1247
01:17:00.520 --> 01:17:02.800
<v Speaker 10>and nine. By April of two thousand and nine, the

1248
01:17:02.800 --> 01:17:06.000
<v Speaker 10>girlfriend is ready to take off, but in an attempt

1249
01:17:06.039 --> 01:17:10.680
<v Speaker 10>to calm some of Josh's agres surrounding her decision to leave,

1250
01:17:11.119 --> 01:17:14.680
<v Speaker 10>she decides to buy him two parting gifts. One was

1251
01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:19.920
<v Speaker 10>a motorcycle, the other was a black motorcycle helmet. And

1252
01:17:20.439 --> 01:17:25.000
<v Speaker 10>according to all of the witness statements that I was

1253
01:17:25.039 --> 01:17:28.640
<v Speaker 10>given access to in the course of my research, Josh

1254
01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:31.640
<v Speaker 10>was extremely disturbed by this girl's decision to leave him.

1255
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:36.000
<v Speaker 10>He wanted them to remain together. He had very intense

1256
01:17:36.039 --> 01:17:39.239
<v Speaker 10>feelings for her. They'd been through a lot of things together,

1257
01:17:40.039 --> 01:17:44.640
<v Speaker 10>and she was frightened according to other statements I've been given. Now,

1258
01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:46.880
<v Speaker 10>these were statements that were given directly to law enforcement,

1259
01:17:46.960 --> 01:17:48.640
<v Speaker 10>and I read them in the course of reports, so

1260
01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:50.880
<v Speaker 10>I tend to think that they're very, very accurate. But

1261
01:17:50.960 --> 01:17:54.960
<v Speaker 10>before she left him, she gave him this motorcycle and

1262
01:17:55.000 --> 01:17:58.079
<v Speaker 10>this helmet. And in the weeks after she left, Josh's

1263
01:17:58.119 --> 01:18:01.159
<v Speaker 10>situation really started to go down. She left in April

1264
01:18:01.199 --> 01:18:04.640
<v Speaker 10>two thousand and nine. By the end of a in

1265
01:18:04.720 --> 01:18:07.680
<v Speaker 10>late April two thousand and nine, Josh was implicated. He

1266
01:18:07.760 --> 01:18:11.119
<v Speaker 10>was positively idd as the suspect and of interest street robbery.

1267
01:18:11.800 --> 01:18:14.039
<v Speaker 10>And and then of course.

1268
01:18:15.279 --> 01:18:21.840
<v Speaker 8>After that, tell us how fast forward to how we

1269
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:26.000
<v Speaker 8>talked about the original DNA sample. There was the DNA

1270
01:18:26.079 --> 01:18:28.399
<v Speaker 8>sample under the fingernails, and we talked about on the

1271
01:18:28.600 --> 01:18:32.119
<v Speaker 8>on the hand towel, and was blood droplets, and there

1272
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:34.760
<v Speaker 8>was a and you talk about very very much, and

1273
01:18:34.800 --> 01:18:37.560
<v Speaker 8>we'll talk we'll touch on this too, about a very

1274
01:18:37.600 --> 01:18:40.159
<v Speaker 8>important part of your book is talking about DNA and

1275
01:18:40.239 --> 01:18:44.880
<v Speaker 8>DNA legislation potentially, and then the science of DNA and

1276
01:18:44.920 --> 01:18:49.640
<v Speaker 8>its advances. So tell us about how he is finally

1277
01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:53.520
<v Speaker 8>linked through DNA, and tell us the process and the

1278
01:18:53.520 --> 01:18:57.479
<v Speaker 8>turn of events that happened that finally get him to

1279
01:18:57.560 --> 01:19:01.640
<v Speaker 8>be the suspect, and tell us about the whole process.

1280
01:19:02.840 --> 01:19:06.359
<v Speaker 10>So I mentioned earlier about the two Ventura Patrol officers

1281
01:19:06.359 --> 01:19:09.920
<v Speaker 10>who pulled over the speeding trail blazer on September thirtieth,

1282
01:19:09.960 --> 01:19:12.640
<v Speaker 10>two thousand and nine, they saw that Josh Packer was

1283
01:19:12.680 --> 01:19:15.199
<v Speaker 10>the driver. They thought that he matched the suspect description

1284
01:19:15.319 --> 01:19:18.279
<v Speaker 10>from the Santa Barbara gas station robbery. They knew that

1285
01:19:18.319 --> 01:19:20.520
<v Speaker 10>his vehicle matched the description of the vehicle scene at

1286
01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:23.039
<v Speaker 10>the crime at the robbery scene, so they turned his

1287
01:19:23.119 --> 01:19:27.000
<v Speaker 10>name over to to Santa Barbara County robbery detectives. Well,

1288
01:19:27.039 --> 01:19:30.479
<v Speaker 10>those detectives began looking at a couple of very compelling clues.

1289
01:19:30.960 --> 01:19:33.399
<v Speaker 10>I mentioned earlier that in the course of the Santa

1290
01:19:33.439 --> 01:19:39.319
<v Speaker 10>Barbara robbery, the robber stole both the gas station attendants wallet,

1291
01:19:39.520 --> 01:19:41.359
<v Speaker 10>and I may or may not have mentioned that he

1292
01:19:41.439 --> 01:19:45.600
<v Speaker 10>stole the gas station attendant's cell phone as well. In

1293
01:19:45.680 --> 01:19:49.640
<v Speaker 10>the hours after the gas station robbery, the robber called

1294
01:19:49.800 --> 01:19:53.479
<v Speaker 10>one of the one of the gas station attendant's friends

1295
01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:56.359
<v Speaker 10>and threatened him about contact police. Well, to make a

1296
01:19:56.399 --> 01:20:01.560
<v Speaker 10>long story short, after, the Ventura Patrol officers forwarded Josh

1297
01:20:01.560 --> 01:20:05.000
<v Speaker 10>Packer's name to the Santa Barbara County detectives. The detectives

1298
01:20:05.039 --> 01:20:09.680
<v Speaker 10>in Santa Barbara County started looking at phone number where

1299
01:20:09.720 --> 01:20:12.039
<v Speaker 10>the phone calls had originated that had gone to the

1300
01:20:12.039 --> 01:20:17.319
<v Speaker 10>gas station attendant's friend, while those phone calls originated in

1301
01:20:17.399 --> 01:20:21.800
<v Speaker 10>Josh Packer's neighborhood in Ventura. So here Josh Packer matches

1302
01:20:21.840 --> 01:20:26.399
<v Speaker 10>the physical description of the physical description of the Santa

1303
01:20:26.399 --> 01:20:29.359
<v Speaker 10>Barbara County robbert. He drives the exact same type of vehicle,

1304
01:20:29.920 --> 01:20:34.000
<v Speaker 10>and now the victim's phone has been used in Josh

1305
01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:37.520
<v Speaker 10>Packer's neighborhoods. So the list of suspects is narrowing in

1306
01:20:37.520 --> 01:20:40.600
<v Speaker 10>that Santa Barbara case, and detectives are looking at Josh

1307
01:20:40.600 --> 01:20:42.880
<v Speaker 10>Moore and more carefully. Well, as they're looking at Josh

1308
01:20:42.960 --> 01:20:45.159
<v Speaker 10>Moore carefully, a couple of other very compelling pieces of

1309
01:20:45.199 --> 01:20:48.399
<v Speaker 10>evidence come to light. It turns out that Josh was

1310
01:20:48.439 --> 01:20:50.800
<v Speaker 10>in a habit in September of two thousand and nine

1311
01:20:50.920 --> 01:20:53.960
<v Speaker 10>of going to the Chumash Casino, which is a huge

1312
01:20:54.119 --> 01:20:58.119
<v Speaker 10>Native American casino in Santa Barbara County. Josh liked to

1313
01:20:58.159 --> 01:21:03.600
<v Speaker 10>gamble up there. Defectives in Santa Barbara started looking at

1314
01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:08.560
<v Speaker 10>Josh's gaming activity at the Chewmash Casino around the time

1315
01:21:08.560 --> 01:21:10.800
<v Speaker 10>of the gas station robbery, and what they ultimately found

1316
01:21:10.840 --> 01:21:14.680
<v Speaker 10>was that Josh lost two hundred and sixty eight dollars

1317
01:21:14.760 --> 01:21:16.760
<v Speaker 10>I believe on the night of the gas station robbery.

1318
01:21:17.279 --> 01:21:20.119
<v Speaker 10>The detectives were also able to pull surveillance footage from

1319
01:21:20.159 --> 01:21:22.359
<v Speaker 10>September twenty third, two thousand and nine, which was the

1320
01:21:22.439 --> 01:21:24.840
<v Speaker 10>night of the gas station robbery, and they were able

1321
01:21:24.840 --> 01:21:27.760
<v Speaker 10>to tell that Josh Packers trailblazer didn't have any license

1322
01:21:27.800 --> 01:21:31.239
<v Speaker 10>plates on it that night. Finally, the detectives were able

1323
01:21:31.279 --> 01:21:34.319
<v Speaker 10>to trace Josh's personal cell phone to within just a

1324
01:21:34.359 --> 01:21:38.039
<v Speaker 10>couple of blocks of that State Street gas station in

1325
01:21:38.039 --> 01:21:41.560
<v Speaker 10>Santa Barbara around the time of the robbery. And so

1326
01:21:41.920 --> 01:21:46.119
<v Speaker 10>with all of that circumstantial evidence in place, detectives were

1327
01:21:46.199 --> 01:21:51.039
<v Speaker 10>finally able in early twenty ten and January twenty ten

1328
01:21:51.520 --> 01:21:56.640
<v Speaker 10>to arrest Josh for the Santa Barbara County gas station robbery.

1329
01:21:56.680 --> 01:21:59.119
<v Speaker 10>So they went down to Ventura. They went to Terry

1330
01:21:59.119 --> 01:22:02.479
<v Speaker 10>Williamson's Hall, which at the time was on Ocean Avenue

1331
01:22:02.479 --> 01:22:07.199
<v Speaker 10>in Ventura. They arrested Josh and they transported him up

1332
01:22:07.279 --> 01:22:09.359
<v Speaker 10>the coast to Santa Barbara County and booked him into

1333
01:22:09.399 --> 01:22:11.760
<v Speaker 10>the county jail. And I should point out that at

1334
01:22:11.760 --> 01:22:15.920
<v Speaker 10>the time California, a new California law had just gone

1335
01:22:15.920 --> 01:22:18.800
<v Speaker 10>into effect in January of two thousand and nine. That

1336
01:22:19.039 --> 01:22:24.319
<v Speaker 10>mandated the extraction and cataloging of all felony arrestees in

1337
01:22:24.399 --> 01:22:28.039
<v Speaker 10>our state. So the net effect of that was when

1338
01:22:28.199 --> 01:22:31.279
<v Speaker 10>Josh was arrested for the Santa Barbara County robbery and

1339
01:22:31.439 --> 01:22:33.680
<v Speaker 10>dripped to the Santa Barbara County Jail to be booked,

1340
01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:36.760
<v Speaker 10>he had his mugshot taken, he had his fingerprints taken,

1341
01:22:37.119 --> 01:22:40.479
<v Speaker 10>he had all of his vital information recorded, and most importantly,

1342
01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:43.000
<v Speaker 10>he had a buckle swab, which is like a large

1343
01:22:43.079 --> 01:22:46.239
<v Speaker 10>Q tip taken from his mouth. So the law enforcement

1344
01:22:46.239 --> 01:22:48.920
<v Speaker 10>officer would just stick this Q tip inside Josh's mouth,

1345
01:22:49.800 --> 01:22:53.920
<v Speaker 10>scrape some cheek cells, and then the officer throws it

1346
01:22:53.960 --> 01:22:56.760
<v Speaker 10>into a bag. That bag is sent to the California

1347
01:22:56.760 --> 01:23:00.439
<v Speaker 10>Department of Justice in Richmond, and then Josh's full DNA

1348
01:23:00.520 --> 01:23:03.600
<v Speaker 10>profile was developed, it was amplified, it was developed, and

1349
01:23:03.640 --> 01:23:08.199
<v Speaker 10>it was entered into the system. And three months later,

1350
01:23:08.880 --> 01:23:13.279
<v Speaker 10>as Josh is a waiting trial on his Santa Barbara

1351
01:23:13.359 --> 01:23:16.439
<v Speaker 10>County robbery charge, that's when the hit is made in

1352
01:23:16.520 --> 01:23:20.560
<v Speaker 10>CODIS and that is when Josh is finally linked to

1353
01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.880
<v Speaker 10>the Faria homicide which had happened in May of two

1354
01:23:23.880 --> 01:23:25.359
<v Speaker 10>thousand and nine.

1355
01:23:27.359 --> 01:23:31.279
<v Speaker 8>Now from there, again, we've only about nine minutes, so

1356
01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:34.079
<v Speaker 8>we won't be able to go into the rest of

1357
01:23:34.119 --> 01:23:38.560
<v Speaker 8>this incredible story, which because that concerns the trial. But

1358
01:23:38.800 --> 01:23:41.880
<v Speaker 8>suffice to say that this is a death penalty case potentially,

1359
01:23:42.640 --> 01:23:45.960
<v Speaker 8>and he has lawyers that are basically their role is

1360
01:23:46.000 --> 01:23:50.159
<v Speaker 8>to save his life. Part of that is obviously to

1361
01:23:50.199 --> 01:23:54.640
<v Speaker 8>be able to have mitigating factors that would prevent somebody

1362
01:23:54.840 --> 01:23:59.159
<v Speaker 8>from being put to death. We talked a lot about,

1363
01:24:00.079 --> 01:24:03.479
<v Speaker 8>you know, about him being a victim in his early

1364
01:24:03.520 --> 01:24:08.479
<v Speaker 8>life and not contributing to this homicidal rage. But with

1365
01:24:08.640 --> 01:24:11.920
<v Speaker 8>this non death penalty and with them, with this fight

1366
01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:14.720
<v Speaker 8>to not have the death penalty, there is a reason

1367
01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:18.520
<v Speaker 8>to not have a trial. And tell us about the

1368
01:24:18.520 --> 01:24:21.880
<v Speaker 8>fight of his attorneys to not have a death penalty

1369
01:24:21.880 --> 01:24:23.600
<v Speaker 8>and what is the alternative if they don't have a

1370
01:24:23.640 --> 01:24:27.279
<v Speaker 8>death penalty, and tell us a little bit about that

1371
01:24:27.319 --> 01:24:29.000
<v Speaker 8>fight by his lawyers.

1372
01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:32.479
<v Speaker 10>Sure well, the Ventura County District Attorney's office. As soon

1373
01:24:32.520 --> 01:24:35.319
<v Speaker 10>as Josh Packer was identified as the suspect in the

1374
01:24:35.319 --> 01:24:38.359
<v Speaker 10>Fariah homicide, he was arrested and taken into custody and

1375
01:24:38.359 --> 01:24:41.159
<v Speaker 10>his case was forward to the Ventura County DA's office

1376
01:24:41.520 --> 01:24:44.520
<v Speaker 10>because of the sensational, gruesome nature of the case, because

1377
01:24:44.560 --> 01:24:48.920
<v Speaker 10>the Faria homicide had struck such fear in the community,

1378
01:24:49.039 --> 01:24:52.439
<v Speaker 10>the DA's office was steadfast and pursuing the death penalty

1379
01:24:52.479 --> 01:24:55.920
<v Speaker 10>against Josh Packer. Now, of course, the DA's office had

1380
01:24:56.000 --> 01:24:58.439
<v Speaker 10>him dead to rights. I was able to meet with

1381
01:24:58.560 --> 01:25:02.520
<v Speaker 10>the Chief Deputy Prosecutor of Ventura County, Mike Frawley, who

1382
01:25:02.520 --> 01:25:04.720
<v Speaker 10>handled the case. I was actually able to meet with

1383
01:25:04.800 --> 01:25:09.880
<v Speaker 10>him just after packer sentencing. But you know, he was

1384
01:25:10.239 --> 01:25:12.039
<v Speaker 10>He was of the belief that there was only one

1385
01:25:12.079 --> 01:25:15.560
<v Speaker 10>appropriate sanction for this horrible murder that Josh had committed.

1386
01:25:15.880 --> 01:25:19.119
<v Speaker 10>Josh's defense attorneys, I think, although I was not able

1387
01:25:19.159 --> 01:25:20.920
<v Speaker 10>to interview them in the course of preparing the book,

1388
01:25:21.960 --> 01:25:25.520
<v Speaker 10>I think they recognized very reasonably that the state had

1389
01:25:25.600 --> 01:25:29.119
<v Speaker 10>Josh dead to right. Josh's DNA was all over the

1390
01:25:29.159 --> 01:25:33.920
<v Speaker 10>crime scene, Josh, you know was There were there were

1391
01:25:33.960 --> 01:25:38.640
<v Speaker 10>a million inculpatory pieces of evidence that linked Josh in

1392
01:25:38.680 --> 01:25:40.359
<v Speaker 10>no uncertain terms to the crime scene, and I want

1393
01:25:40.399 --> 01:25:43.439
<v Speaker 10>to enumerate those. Now, leave those for your readers read

1394
01:25:43.840 --> 01:25:47.239
<v Speaker 10>your listeners to read on their own. But suffice it

1395
01:25:47.279 --> 01:25:51.880
<v Speaker 10>to say that Josh's defense team recognized that he would

1396
01:25:51.920 --> 01:25:55.359
<v Speaker 10>be convicted if he went to trial, and that he

1397
01:25:55.399 --> 01:25:57.760
<v Speaker 10>would be given the death penally if he were convicted.

1398
01:25:58.319 --> 01:26:04.159
<v Speaker 10>So eventually they were able to appeal a motion they

1399
01:26:04.159 --> 01:26:06.239
<v Speaker 10>had filed to have Mike Frawley removed from the case.

1400
01:26:06.720 --> 01:26:09.079
<v Speaker 10>That the appeal of that motion went all the way

1401
01:26:09.079 --> 01:26:12.000
<v Speaker 10>to the California Supreme Court, and finally, at the end

1402
01:26:12.079 --> 01:26:14.920
<v Speaker 10>of the day, when both sides were getting ready to

1403
01:26:15.000 --> 01:26:18.039
<v Speaker 10>have an evidentiary hearing on Mike Frawley's fitness to serve

1404
01:26:18.199 --> 01:26:23.079
<v Speaker 10>as the prosecutor in the case, the District Attorney's office

1405
01:26:23.439 --> 01:26:26.720
<v Speaker 10>agreed to a plea bargain and that plea bargain allowed

1406
01:26:26.800 --> 01:26:29.840
<v Speaker 10>Josh to avoid the death penalty and receive a sentence

1407
01:26:29.880 --> 01:26:33.039
<v Speaker 10>of life without parole for the Housted murders. And so

1408
01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:35.479
<v Speaker 10>that's where Josh is now. He was originally sent to

1409
01:26:35.520 --> 01:26:39.760
<v Speaker 10>Alasco State Prisons reception Area and now he is at

1410
01:26:39.800 --> 01:26:42.119
<v Speaker 10>the California Medical Center in Stockton.

1411
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:46.199
<v Speaker 8>Now, you talk about reaching out to him for an

1412
01:26:46.199 --> 01:26:51.399
<v Speaker 8>interview and not getting a response, but the interview, the

1413
01:26:51.479 --> 01:26:53.800
<v Speaker 8>key interview that you did get was with Terry Williams

1414
01:26:53.840 --> 01:26:58.600
<v Speaker 8>and his mother tell our audience what she had to

1415
01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:02.439
<v Speaker 8>say about her couple of the and overall just her

1416
01:27:03.319 --> 01:27:07.880
<v Speaker 8>take on this incredible case that her son and ultimately

1417
01:27:07.960 --> 01:27:08.880
<v Speaker 8>she was involved with.

1418
01:27:11.000 --> 01:27:13.520
<v Speaker 10>I am a major fan of true crime, and I

1419
01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:16.960
<v Speaker 10>would say if there's one aspect of Black Knight, Gold

1420
01:27:17.039 --> 01:27:19.560
<v Speaker 10>Coast that distinguishes it from virtually any other work of

1421
01:27:19.560 --> 01:27:22.680
<v Speaker 10>true crime I've ever read, it's the perspective I'm able

1422
01:27:22.720 --> 01:27:26.479
<v Speaker 10>to give readers on how the a Thinders family feels

1423
01:27:26.680 --> 01:27:30.960
<v Speaker 10>after their relative has been taken into custody for a

1424
01:27:31.039 --> 01:27:34.479
<v Speaker 10>high profile and notorious violent crime. I think we're in

1425
01:27:34.479 --> 01:27:37.119
<v Speaker 10>the habit as we should be of identifying with the

1426
01:27:37.199 --> 01:27:43.439
<v Speaker 10>victims' families the victims themselves, and that should be done. However,

1427
01:27:44.039 --> 01:27:48.239
<v Speaker 10>I contacted Josh for an interview after he was sent

1428
01:27:48.279 --> 01:27:51.000
<v Speaker 10>to Waco State Prison. He never got back to me.

1429
01:27:51.039 --> 01:27:53.319
<v Speaker 10>As I came to find out later, he was really traumatized.

1430
01:27:53.359 --> 01:27:55.359
<v Speaker 10>He's been struggling with a lot of mental health issues

1431
01:27:55.439 --> 01:27:59.279
<v Speaker 10>since since he was arrested for the Faria murders. But

1432
01:27:59.319 --> 01:28:01.680
<v Speaker 10>I was able to make contact and actually strike up

1433
01:28:01.680 --> 01:28:04.840
<v Speaker 10>a friendship of sorts with his mother, whom I actually

1434
01:28:04.880 --> 01:28:06.840
<v Speaker 10>came to admire in kind of a strange way. Like

1435
01:28:06.880 --> 01:28:10.439
<v Speaker 10>I pointed out, earlier. She by her own admission, made

1436
01:28:10.439 --> 01:28:13.800
<v Speaker 10>a million and one mistakes when Josh was growing up.

1437
01:28:14.279 --> 01:28:17.000
<v Speaker 10>She abandoned them. She allowed him to be abused, she

1438
01:28:17.319 --> 01:28:22.279
<v Speaker 10>provided unsavory individuals access to him, and so forth. But

1439
01:28:22.399 --> 01:28:27.239
<v Speaker 10>she's really done an amazing job of pulling her life together. So,

1440
01:28:27.479 --> 01:28:30.119
<v Speaker 10>in the course of interviewing her for what must have

1441
01:28:30.199 --> 01:28:32.479
<v Speaker 10>been dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens

1442
01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:37.359
<v Speaker 10>of hours, it was interesting to see what her perspective

1443
01:28:37.520 --> 01:28:42.279
<v Speaker 10>was on having her son arrested, jailed, facing a possible

1444
01:28:42.319 --> 01:28:45.840
<v Speaker 10>death sentence for these crimes, and how tragic it was

1445
01:28:45.880 --> 01:28:48.159
<v Speaker 10>that because Josh was eighteen at the time he was

1446
01:28:48.239 --> 01:28:52.239
<v Speaker 10>arrested for the free and murders, his mother was not

1447
01:28:52.359 --> 01:28:55.000
<v Speaker 10>able to ask his attorneys for any information about the case.

1448
01:28:55.079 --> 01:28:57.399
<v Speaker 10>She was not able to ask Josh Forerney information about

1449
01:28:57.399 --> 01:29:01.359
<v Speaker 10>the case because Josh was being held at Ventura County Jail.

1450
01:29:01.760 --> 01:29:06.079
<v Speaker 10>He was in solitary confinement. Obviously terry over the phones

1451
01:29:06.119 --> 01:29:08.159
<v Speaker 10>between the plexiglass and the jail. She didn't want to

1452
01:29:08.159 --> 01:29:11.319
<v Speaker 10>ask her son any information about his case. So she

1453
01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:15.439
<v Speaker 10>really had absolutely no insight into these crimes whatsoever. All

1454
01:29:15.439 --> 01:29:17.479
<v Speaker 10>she knew is that her son was facing a death penalty,

1455
01:29:18.079 --> 01:29:21.079
<v Speaker 10>the death penalty, there was extremely compelling evidence against him,

1456
01:29:21.640 --> 01:29:24.119
<v Speaker 10>and that's where I entered the picture. When I started

1457
01:29:24.119 --> 01:29:26.000
<v Speaker 10>interviewing her, I let her know that in the course

1458
01:29:26.039 --> 01:29:28.800
<v Speaker 10>of my research, I had obtained access to a huge

1459
01:29:28.800 --> 01:29:33.000
<v Speaker 10>amount of information on the case reports, police reports, crime

1460
01:29:33.039 --> 01:29:37.760
<v Speaker 10>scene photos, everything pretty much, and so I forwarded those

1461
01:29:38.520 --> 01:29:42.039
<v Speaker 10>and really talking those through with her and getting her

1462
01:29:42.039 --> 01:29:44.680
<v Speaker 10>reaction to those and to her son's predicament in general,

1463
01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:47.119
<v Speaker 10>without a doubt, one of the most memorable experiences of

1464
01:29:47.159 --> 01:29:49.920
<v Speaker 10>my life, and that's what I try to bring to

1465
01:29:50.000 --> 01:29:54.680
<v Speaker 10>life for readers in Black Knight, Gold Coast.

1466
01:29:56.039 --> 01:29:59.399
<v Speaker 8>I wanted to say too that what we haven't spoken about,

1467
01:30:00.199 --> 01:30:05.239
<v Speaker 8>and we can talk about this briefly, is that they

1468
01:30:05.279 --> 01:30:11.239
<v Speaker 8>avoided a death penalty trial, and they also avoided having

1469
01:30:12.319 --> 01:30:17.079
<v Speaker 8>a nine year old, still a child, having to testify

1470
01:30:17.119 --> 01:30:23.159
<v Speaker 8>at court being further traumatized. But what did happen with

1471
01:30:24.239 --> 01:30:25.960
<v Speaker 8>and what is the state as far as you know,

1472
01:30:26.039 --> 01:30:28.119
<v Speaker 8>of the nine year old and the eleven year old

1473
01:30:28.159 --> 01:30:32.840
<v Speaker 8>that will be ever fairly scarred for life from what

1474
01:30:32.880 --> 01:30:36.760
<v Speaker 8>they saw and what they experienced. We haven't spoken about

1475
01:30:36.800 --> 01:30:40.159
<v Speaker 8>their welfare. What has happened to the two children?

1476
01:30:41.760 --> 01:30:43.960
<v Speaker 10>I don't know specifics. I should be honest about that

1477
01:30:44.079 --> 01:30:46.159
<v Speaker 10>right after bat. But what I can say is this.

1478
01:30:46.520 --> 01:30:50.159
<v Speaker 10>The run up to Josh Packer's trial lasted for several years.

1479
01:30:50.159 --> 01:30:52.840
<v Speaker 10>The murders happened in two thousand and nine, he was

1480
01:30:52.920 --> 01:30:55.359
<v Speaker 10>arrested in the spring of two thousand and ten. He

1481
01:30:55.439 --> 01:30:59.159
<v Speaker 10>finally pled guilty in December twenty fourteen, and he was

1482
01:30:59.199 --> 01:31:01.880
<v Speaker 10>actually sentenced all almost exactly a year ago. You sentenced

1483
01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:07.479
<v Speaker 10>to life without parole on February sixth, twenty fifteen. In

1484
01:31:07.560 --> 01:31:11.439
<v Speaker 10>the years since the murders, Isabella and Brocky have grown

1485
01:31:11.560 --> 01:31:15.159
<v Speaker 10>into teenagers. I know that they were. The last I heard,

1486
01:31:15.159 --> 01:31:17.520
<v Speaker 10>they were living with family members in the More Park area,

1487
01:31:18.119 --> 01:31:21.359
<v Speaker 10>and I can only hope and I can only pray

1488
01:31:21.439 --> 01:31:26.840
<v Speaker 10>that they are living slightly well adjusted lives. I think

1489
01:31:26.840 --> 01:31:30.640
<v Speaker 10>the fact that they had such loving, conscientious, stable family

1490
01:31:30.680 --> 01:31:35.199
<v Speaker 10>members probably gave them a very good shot at leading

1491
01:31:36.520 --> 01:31:40.319
<v Speaker 10>normal lives after this horrible tragedy they experienced as children.

1492
01:31:40.479 --> 01:31:47.079
<v Speaker 8>You talked about one word, trying to encompass all the

1493
01:31:47.159 --> 01:31:50.479
<v Speaker 8>experience that you had in researching this book, and I've

1494
01:31:50.520 --> 01:31:52.640
<v Speaker 8>spoken to other true crime authors. It takes a toll

1495
01:31:53.119 --> 01:31:55.199
<v Speaker 8>to get this close to the flame, to get this

1496
01:31:55.279 --> 01:31:58.840
<v Speaker 8>close to people and then have to report on such

1497
01:31:58.840 --> 01:32:02.840
<v Speaker 8>a tragedy. What was that one word that you did

1498
01:32:02.960 --> 01:32:06.000
<v Speaker 8>use and explain what you mean by that one word

1499
01:32:06.399 --> 01:32:09.479
<v Speaker 8>sort of encompassing your experience.

1500
01:32:10.960 --> 01:32:13.960
<v Speaker 10>Sure, I tried to find a word that sort of

1501
01:32:14.079 --> 01:32:18.520
<v Speaker 10>summed up the really toxic breadth of the Pharia case,

1502
01:32:18.600 --> 01:32:21.760
<v Speaker 10>and the word I finally settled on was paradox. The

1503
01:32:21.800 --> 01:32:24.920
<v Speaker 10>reason I settled on paradox is the whole case really

1504
01:32:24.920 --> 01:32:29.000
<v Speaker 10>in so many ways as a contradiction. Brock and Divina

1505
01:32:29.079 --> 01:32:32.159
<v Speaker 10>houstaid were very affluent people. They were people living the

1506
01:32:32.199 --> 01:32:34.920
<v Speaker 10>American dream. They were people who had it all. And

1507
01:32:34.960 --> 01:32:37.479
<v Speaker 10>I think because they were so safe and they were

1508
01:32:37.520 --> 01:32:40.720
<v Speaker 10>so secure, and they were so comfortable in their daily lives,

1509
01:32:41.199 --> 01:32:43.840
<v Speaker 10>that contributed to them to letting their guard down for

1510
01:32:44.000 --> 01:32:46.239
<v Speaker 10>just a moment. And when they let their guard down,

1511
01:32:46.399 --> 01:32:51.239
<v Speaker 10>of course, that's when Josh Packer struck, and that's when

1512
01:32:51.239 --> 01:32:53.920
<v Speaker 10>he claimed their lives and forever altered their lives and

1513
01:32:53.920 --> 01:32:56.119
<v Speaker 10>the lives of their children. So in that sense, the

1514
01:32:56.199 --> 01:33:00.319
<v Speaker 10>fact that comfort and safety actually contributed to a relaxing

1515
01:33:00.760 --> 01:33:05.800
<v Speaker 10>of safety conscientiousness, that is a tremendous paradox. It's also

1516
01:33:05.840 --> 01:33:10.600
<v Speaker 10>a real paradox in my mind that you know, California

1517
01:33:10.720 --> 01:33:13.920
<v Speaker 10>taxpayers are now saddled with keeping Josh Packer in prison

1518
01:33:13.960 --> 01:33:16.800
<v Speaker 10>for the rest of his life. It's not as expensive

1519
01:33:16.840 --> 01:33:19.479
<v Speaker 10>to keep an inmate in regular prison as it is

1520
01:33:19.520 --> 01:33:21.920
<v Speaker 10>to execute a prisoner and send him through his entire

1521
01:33:21.920 --> 01:33:25.399
<v Speaker 10>appellate process, but it's still very expensive. And it's really

1522
01:33:25.960 --> 01:33:29.680
<v Speaker 10>paradoxical to me at least that California taxpayers will spend

1523
01:33:29.960 --> 01:33:32.680
<v Speaker 10>sixty seventy eighty thousand dollars a year to keep Josh

1524
01:33:32.680 --> 01:33:36.079
<v Speaker 10>Packer in state prison. Yet when he was a child,

1525
01:33:36.760 --> 01:33:40.880
<v Speaker 10>there wasn't one dime invested in finding out what his

1526
01:33:40.920 --> 01:33:44.039
<v Speaker 10>mental health issues were helping him overcome what we can

1527
01:33:44.079 --> 01:33:49.600
<v Speaker 10>only assume was malignant trauma of being molested and abused

1528
01:33:49.640 --> 01:33:52.960
<v Speaker 10>on so many occasions, of the head injuries, of the neglect,

1529
01:33:53.000 --> 01:33:57.159
<v Speaker 10>of the abandoned, and so forth. In Josh's entire school record,

1530
01:33:57.159 --> 01:33:59.520
<v Speaker 10>there's not one indication that he was ever given any

1531
01:33:59.600 --> 01:34:03.960
<v Speaker 10>sort of substantive psychological counseling. So I find it paradoxical

1532
01:34:04.000 --> 01:34:05.680
<v Speaker 10>that will spend all this money on him now that

1533
01:34:05.720 --> 01:34:08.399
<v Speaker 10>he's an adult who's committed heinous murders. But we as

1534
01:34:08.399 --> 01:34:11.600
<v Speaker 10>a society wouldn't spend anything on this kid when he

1535
01:34:11.680 --> 01:34:15.199
<v Speaker 10>was so young. And I think ultimately the greatest paradox

1536
01:34:15.239 --> 01:34:21.319
<v Speaker 10>of the Ventura tragedy is that this is a case

1537
01:34:21.359 --> 01:34:24.159
<v Speaker 10>that has devastated so many families. This is a case

1538
01:34:24.159 --> 01:34:28.640
<v Speaker 10>that devastated the Deboney family, the Houstead family, Josh's family.

1539
01:34:29.600 --> 01:34:32.800
<v Speaker 10>But at the same time, this case points out why

1540
01:34:33.079 --> 01:34:36.399
<v Speaker 10>arrest d DNA collection is so important. There is not

1541
01:34:36.479 --> 01:34:38.920
<v Speaker 10>a doubt in my mind that if Josh Backer had

1542
01:34:38.920 --> 01:34:40.520
<v Speaker 10>been left on the streets, if he had never been

1543
01:34:40.560 --> 01:34:42.800
<v Speaker 10>identified as a suspect in this case, he would have

1544
01:34:42.800 --> 01:34:45.960
<v Speaker 10>claimed other lives. It might not have been two years

1545
01:34:45.960 --> 01:34:47.600
<v Speaker 10>from now, it might not have been three years from now,

1546
01:34:47.640 --> 01:34:51.239
<v Speaker 10>but it would have happened again. And by collecting his

1547
01:34:51.399 --> 01:34:54.880
<v Speaker 10>DNA at the time of his arrest on that Santa

1548
01:34:54.880 --> 01:34:57.640
<v Speaker 10>Barbara robbery case, we were able to prevent that from happening.

1549
01:34:57.680 --> 01:35:01.199
<v Speaker 10>So the paradox there is a case that he has

1550
01:35:01.239 --> 01:35:05.119
<v Speaker 10>been so deeply traumatizing to so many families, can actually

1551
01:35:05.279 --> 01:35:10.000
<v Speaker 10>spare more families pain by putting reasonable DNA arrest d

1552
01:35:10.159 --> 01:35:14.760
<v Speaker 10>DNA collection laws on the books. That's not an uncontroversial position.

1553
01:35:14.840 --> 01:35:17.279
<v Speaker 10>I have come under some fire for taking that position,

1554
01:35:17.359 --> 01:35:20.359
<v Speaker 10>but based on the vitality of my research, based on

1555
01:35:20.399 --> 01:35:22.239
<v Speaker 10>all the work I did on this book, I have

1556
01:35:22.319 --> 01:35:26.239
<v Speaker 10>to say that it is it's bordering on negligence for

1557
01:35:26.359 --> 01:35:29.199
<v Speaker 10>any law enforcement jurisdiction in the United States, Canada, or

1558
01:35:29.199 --> 01:35:33.960
<v Speaker 10>any other country that has a modern law enforcement apparatus

1559
01:35:34.039 --> 01:35:37.920
<v Speaker 10>not to take arrest d DNA at the time of booking.

1560
01:35:40.159 --> 01:35:43.840
<v Speaker 8>Yes, and you cite another really dramatic example with the

1561
01:35:43.880 --> 01:35:48.359
<v Speaker 8>Green River killer that you show that if DNA testing

1562
01:35:48.439 --> 01:35:54.159
<v Speaker 8>were mandatory, as you suggest, that maybe sixty women could

1563
01:35:54.199 --> 01:35:58.279
<v Speaker 8>have been spared. I did take a lie detector test.

1564
01:35:58.319 --> 01:36:01.239
<v Speaker 8>He was cleared as a suspect. You do put a

1565
01:36:01.239 --> 01:36:07.600
<v Speaker 8>big practical what if and to demonstrate again what could

1566
01:36:07.640 --> 01:36:08.079
<v Speaker 8>have been.

1567
01:36:09.600 --> 01:36:11.720
<v Speaker 10>I think I think your your listeners should keep in

1568
01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:17.600
<v Speaker 10>mind too, that two weeks after Josh Packer pled guilty

1569
01:36:17.640 --> 01:36:21.159
<v Speaker 10>to the Faria murders, the First Appellate District of the

1570
01:36:21.199 --> 01:36:24.199
<v Speaker 10>California Court of Appeals ruled on a case called People

1571
01:36:24.279 --> 01:36:27.840
<v Speaker 10>Versus Buza, And in that case, this man, this convicted

1572
01:36:27.960 --> 01:36:32.800
<v Speaker 10>arsonist named Mark Buza, had challenged the statute that actually

1573
01:36:32.840 --> 01:36:37.960
<v Speaker 10>allowed law enforcement agencies to collect arrestee from felony from

1574
01:36:38.000 --> 01:36:43.600
<v Speaker 10>felony arrestees collect DNA from felony arrestees. So the bottom

1575
01:36:43.640 --> 01:36:47.760
<v Speaker 10>line there is, if Josh Packer was arrested in California

1576
01:36:47.880 --> 01:36:52.680
<v Speaker 10>today for the Santa Barbara robbery, his DNA would not

1577
01:36:52.760 --> 01:36:55.159
<v Speaker 10>be collected, it would not be sent to CODIS, and

1578
01:36:55.199 --> 01:36:57.880
<v Speaker 10>it would not be linked to the Faria murders. He'd

1579
01:36:57.920 --> 01:37:00.680
<v Speaker 10>still be out walking the streets. That idea is something

1580
01:37:00.720 --> 01:37:03.319
<v Speaker 10>that should resonate very strongly with all of us.

1581
01:37:04.119 --> 01:37:06.239
<v Speaker 8>Absolutely, I think it's a very very important part of

1582
01:37:06.279 --> 01:37:09.039
<v Speaker 8>your book. You make a great argument for this, and

1583
01:37:09.119 --> 01:37:11.920
<v Speaker 8>I think it's an important component of your book, and

1584
01:37:11.960 --> 01:37:14.840
<v Speaker 8>I'm glad that we could speak about it because I

1585
01:37:14.880 --> 01:37:20.039
<v Speaker 8>think it's very very important being DNA has been a

1586
01:37:20.079 --> 01:37:24.279
<v Speaker 8>fantastic boom for law enforcement like no other, and especially

1587
01:37:24.319 --> 01:37:28.359
<v Speaker 8>in light of all the discreditation of things that we

1588
01:37:28.439 --> 01:37:34.199
<v Speaker 8>thought were really consistent and worthwhile at court and trial.

1589
01:37:34.359 --> 01:37:40.800
<v Speaker 8>So DNA has very little controversy except in the area

1590
01:37:40.840 --> 01:37:43.239
<v Speaker 8>that you're bringing up in this book in terms of

1591
01:37:43.279 --> 01:37:47.399
<v Speaker 8>when it can be collected and why and what is

1592
01:37:47.399 --> 01:37:49.720
<v Speaker 8>the trade off in terms of people's privacy. But you

1593
01:37:49.800 --> 01:37:53.880
<v Speaker 8>stay to make a great argument for the necessity and

1594
01:37:55.039 --> 01:37:58.199
<v Speaker 8>the importance of DNA collection. So I want to congratulate

1595
01:37:58.199 --> 01:38:00.000
<v Speaker 8>you on that. I want to thank you very much

1596
01:38:00.079 --> 01:38:02.560
<v Speaker 8>much for coming on and talking about Black Night Gold Coast.

1597
01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:05.239
<v Speaker 8>For those that may want to contact you or keep

1598
01:38:05.239 --> 01:38:10.000
<v Speaker 8>in touch, do have a website? Facebook? How can people

1599
01:38:10.159 --> 01:38:12.880
<v Speaker 8>contact you so desired?

1600
01:38:13.880 --> 01:38:16.319
<v Speaker 10>I don't have a website or Facebook, but if people

1601
01:38:16.359 --> 01:38:19.399
<v Speaker 10>want to contact me they can they can send me

1602
01:38:19.560 --> 01:38:22.680
<v Speaker 10>an email. My email address is Gray G R A

1603
01:38:23.039 --> 01:38:28.119
<v Speaker 10>Y dot Colint C A L E N t at

1604
01:38:28.319 --> 01:38:32.479
<v Speaker 10>gmail dot com. And also, if anyone's interested in seeing

1605
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:35.880
<v Speaker 10>actual video footage of Josh Packer in the Ventura County jail,

1606
01:38:36.159 --> 01:38:39.239
<v Speaker 10>you can also check out my YouTube page I have

1607
01:38:39.439 --> 01:38:41.960
<v Speaker 10>I believe I sent you the link, Dan, I have

1608
01:38:42.079 --> 01:38:47.359
<v Speaker 10>video footage of Josh Packer brawling with eight deputies during

1609
01:38:47.479 --> 01:38:50.520
<v Speaker 10>his confinement in the Ventura County jail. So all you

1610
01:38:50.520 --> 01:38:53.039
<v Speaker 10>should do is go to YouTube and you can either

1611
01:38:53.159 --> 01:38:55.840
<v Speaker 10>enter my name or you can enter inmate brawls with

1612
01:38:55.920 --> 01:38:58.640
<v Speaker 10>deputies or fights with deputies or something to that effect,

1613
01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:00.399
<v Speaker 10>and that video should I'm up.

1614
01:39:01.640 --> 01:39:04.439
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, it's very interesting. Again, thank you very much for

1615
01:39:04.520 --> 01:39:07.960
<v Speaker 8>coming on talking about Black Knight Gold Coast. A fascinating story.

1616
01:39:08.279 --> 01:39:10.439
<v Speaker 8>Thank you very much. Great George, have a great night.

1617
01:39:10.479 --> 01:39:12.119
<v Speaker 10>Thank you so much, thank you so much for having

1618
01:39:12.199 --> 01:39:25.840
<v Speaker 10>me have a great night you too. Good Night, good night.
