WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:04.040 Oh Hello, it's that sentence that your cat just typed 2 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.080 out that you're decoding for supernatural clues. Ali Ward, here 3 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:11.119 we are, here, we all are before we're dead. If 4 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:14.519 you're listening, you're on this side of the known universe. 5 00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:16.440 But come take a walk with me to the border, 6 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:18.920 where I'll ask a guy who studies the brink of 7 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:22.000 death a bunch of not very smart questions about just 8 00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:24.199 what the fuck is going on here, and somehow perhaps 9 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:25.920 it'll put you in a better mood. He's not just 10 00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:27.679 some guy, though, he's one of the world's experts on this. 11 00:00:27.960 --> 00:00:30.679 He's a scientist and a psychiatrist who's been on the 12 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:34.119 medical faculty at two teaching hospitals, even as the clinical 13 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.320 chief of psychiatry. He's a University of Virginia Professor Emeritus 14 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:43.200 of Psychiatry and Neurobehavioral Sciences, and the American Psychiatry Association 15 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:46.359 gave him their highest honor of being a Distinguished Life Fellow. 16 00:00:46.759 --> 00:00:49.119 His work has spanned over forty five years of research 17 00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:53.799 over one hundred published papers with titles such as Western 18 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:58.399 Scientific Approaches to Near Death Experiences, The Phenomenology of Near 19 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:02.799 Death Experiences, Do any near death experiences? Provide evidence for 20 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:05.920 their survival of human personality after death and the banger 21 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:09.719 dissociation in people who have near death experiences out of 22 00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:12.680 their bodies or out of their minds. Oh, we'll get 23 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.200 to that stuff. So for twenty seven years, this guy 24 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:18.120 served as the editor of the only journal about near 25 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:20.799 death research. He also authored a book about all this, 26 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.480 called After a Doctor Explores what Near death experiences reveal 27 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:29.439 about life and beyond. And there's a new documentary out 28 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:33.079 about near death experiences and he declined to be in 29 00:01:33.159 --> 00:01:36.439 it because it wasn't fact based enough, which tells you something. 30 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:39.200 He's legit, So he's an esteemed physician with a lot 31 00:01:39.239 --> 00:01:41.480 of clout. He is dubious of fum flam, and he's 32 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:43.920 here to tell us what he knows about biding the dust, 33 00:01:44.040 --> 00:01:46.799 what studies or bogus, What commonalities do we share, and 34 00:01:46.879 --> 00:01:48.879 what's it got to do with street drugs. We'll get 35 00:01:48.959 --> 00:01:50.760 right to it, but first, thank you to everyone who 36 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:53.680 submits questions ahead of time at patreon dot com, slash ologies, 37 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:56.000 where you can join for a dollar a month. Thank 38 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:58.760 you to everyone ordering merch for the holidays at ologiesmerch 39 00:01:58.840 --> 00:02:01.560 dot com. Thanks to every leaving reviews. I read them all, 40 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:04.760 including this piping hot one from EDR seventeen twenty, who 41 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:07.200 wrote this podcast is so good. Want to know how good? 42 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:09.439 I wore my AirPods into the shower and had to 43 00:02:09.479 --> 00:02:12.319 get new ones. Totally worth it, Eder seventeen twenty. I 44 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.199 am sorry. Everyone else, please pause us before you go 45 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:17.360 on a water slide. And if you've ever left me 46 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:19.159 a review, I've read it with my own eyes. I've 47 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.960 appreciated it. Edward Collins, it was worth booting up the 48 00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:24.159 iPad to leave it. Thank you. Okay, let's get into it. 49 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.080 Quasi thanatology. This term is an amalgam of Latin and 50 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.120 Greek to mean this study of almost death. And hey, 51 00:02:31.159 --> 00:02:33.439 this field doesn't have the best ology, but we're gonna 52 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.039 take what we can get. Content wise, will be covering 53 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:39.039 rigorous research at the forefront of these happenings. I was 54 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.199 so nervous to talk to this man, and not because 55 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:45.120 we'd be dancing around the topic of our own mortality. 56 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.800 I was more immediately concerned with just wasting his time. 57 00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:52.000 And what if I asked, if ghosts are naked? Also, 58 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.719 would this episode bum me out? HM, you'd be surprised 59 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.240 it doesn't. And there are some of my biggest secrets 60 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.439 I've ever told woven throughout it. So we cover brain 61 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:07.080 activity during death, near death events versus near death experiences, 62 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:12.520 bright lights, tunnel visions, the statistics on near death experiences, neurotransmitters, 63 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:17.000 party drugs, religion versus spirituality, accounts from patients, out of 64 00:03:17.080 --> 00:03:22.680 body experiments, time dilation, the Swiss Alps, deathbed visions, accidental 65 00:03:22.759 --> 00:03:26.479 morgue visits, what matters most in life, and more. And 66 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:28.439 if this sounds like a spook Toober episode, you might 67 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:30.680 be surprised by the end of this. So get cozy, 68 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.599 enjoy the sunshine and breeze or fresh snow or cozy blankets, 69 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:40.400 and less crossover with psychiatrists and quasi thanatologist. Sure, doctor Bruce. 70 00:03:40.199 --> 00:04:00.400 Grayson, I'm just really excited to talk to you. 71 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:02.479 I imagine a lot of people who get to chat 72 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.719 with you are pretty excited about it as well. 73 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:09.120 Thanks. Thanks, I enjoy these. Yeah, okay, I am Bruce Grayson. 74 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:10.960 And pronouns are he him? 75 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:12.280 Yes? Yeah. 76 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.199 So you have been the editor of journals, you have 77 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:19.560 written so many papers on this, you have a book 78 00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:23.560 called after You're known as kind of the expert of 79 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:28.959 near death experiences, which is it seems like a weighty title. 80 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:31.879 Do you tell people what you study when you're at 81 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:34.000 a dinner party or on an airplane or are you 82 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:35.639 just like, I'm a scientist, don't worry about it. 83 00:04:36.279 --> 00:04:38.040 One of them at a dinner party yard, I just 84 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:39.120 tell people I'm a doctor. 85 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:45.079 Yeah. Have you gotten into long conversations before you learned 86 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:45.720 that hack? 87 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.480 Not so much to give more of strange looks? 88 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.759 Oh really? How about in the industry among other doctors? 89 00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:58.399 Other doctors, There's no problem Now. I'm very open with them. 90 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:00.959 I think they need to be educated, so I tell 91 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000 them everything I know about. 92 00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:04.839 Has there been a learning curve over the years as 93 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.040 we've gotten better at imaging and better at brain studies. 94 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:10.040 You've been doing this for so long, have you seen 95 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:14.279 tides kind of shift in terms of how people see 96 00:05:14.279 --> 00:05:15.120 the validity of it. 97 00:05:15.399 --> 00:05:18.360 Yes, we've seen tremendous shifts. When we first started doing 98 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:21.800 this research back in the nineteen seventies nineteen eighties, we 99 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.160 would talk at large medical conferences and there will be 100 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:27.399 a polite silence in the audience. Nobody knew we were 101 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:32.120 talking about. Nobody thought these things really existed. And now 102 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:34.720 when we talk to the same medical audiences. It is 103 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:37.120 rare that doctors don't stand up in the audience and say, 104 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.560 let me tell you about my near death experience. I 105 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.160 think the change is less to the research, unfortunately, than 106 00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:48.680 to the public acceptance of near death experiences. They're in movies, 107 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.439 they're on television shows. Even Homer Simpson has had a 108 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:55.680 near death experience. Now, Homer, why up, you're alive. 109 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:59.040 You're alive, alive, life. 110 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.360 Everyone knows about them. 111 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:02.040 You know. 112 00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:04.600 Do you think that the internet has done anything to 113 00:06:04.680 --> 00:06:06.959 kind of democratize people's voices in that way? Do you 114 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:09.639 think it was harder to get these kind of experiences 115 00:06:09.680 --> 00:06:13.279 in print versus people just one off self publishing on 116 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:14.399 blogs and stuff. 117 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:18.399 I think the Injeneta has done a lot, both positive 118 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:21.480 and negative, But in general, I think it has spread 119 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.240 the word more so that people are less reluctant to 120 00:06:24.279 --> 00:06:26.160 talk about their own near death experiences. 121 00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:28.800 Now, how dead do you have to be for? How 122 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:31.160 long do you have to be You always think a 123 00:06:31.199 --> 00:06:34.560 near death experience you've got to be out for maybe 124 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:38.360 a few minutes. But have you found trends or data? 125 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:42.120 Well, that's a great question. Ali, You know, most of 126 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.319 the research that's been done with near death experiences has 127 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:47.800 been with people who have a cardiac arrest. That is, 128 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:50.959 their hearts have stopped, so we know they have had 129 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:56.480 that occasion. However, before the last twenty thirty years, people 130 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:58.720 were just collecting cases, and most of those were not 131 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.279 people for whom we had physiological measures. For example, the 132 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:06.040 first collection of cases was published in eighteen ninety two 133 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:08.959 by a Swiss geologist in the publish in the year 134 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:12.399 book of the Swiss Alpine Club, and he himself had 135 00:07:12.439 --> 00:07:14.439 had a new death experience when he failed while climbing 136 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.839 in the Alps, and he fell sixty feet and have 137 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:19.839 a very elaborate near death experience, but as far as 138 00:07:19.920 --> 00:07:21.279 we know, his heart never stopped. 139 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:22.160 Oh. 140 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:24.040 He was so impressed by this that he started asking 141 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:27.439 fellow climbers and quickly found thirty other cases and published these. 142 00:07:28.040 --> 00:07:30.160 So you don't have to be that close to death 143 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.600 and you have the same type of experience. 144 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:35.480 For more on this, see the paper the Experience of 145 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:39.680 Dying by Falls written by one Albertthheim, that Swiss geologist 146 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:43.040 who in eighteen seventy two was leading a pack of 147 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:46.480 climbers on the descent when a gust of wind took 148 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.160 his hat, He tried to catch it, and shit sixty 149 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:52.439 six feet down at Craggy Mountain. Spoiler alert. He survived, 150 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.240 which is a whole point of this, And he wrote later, 151 00:07:54.959 --> 00:07:58.399 let us apply ourselves rather to this scientific study of 152 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.199 a horrible event. The subject may thereby lose a portion 153 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.360 of its ghastliness, he writes. Sometimes to be sure, a 154 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:07.560 fall is dreadful for their survivors, but it is something 155 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.199 quite different for the victim itself. So the subjective perceptions 156 00:08:11.199 --> 00:08:14.040 of those who fall to their deaths are the same, 157 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:17.439 whether they fall from the scaffolding of a house or 158 00:08:17.480 --> 00:08:20.000 the face of a cliff. It has been proven that 159 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:23.519 one who's run over by a wagon or crushed by 160 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:27.079 a machine, even the drowning person, looks death in the 161 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.639 face with similar feelings, he writes, And he says it 162 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:33.440 may be briefly characterized in the following way. No grief 163 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:37.080 was felt, nor was there paralyzing fright. There was no anxiety, 164 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.679 no trace of despair, no pain, but rather calm seriousness, 165 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.879 profound acceptance, and sense of surety. No confusion entered it. 166 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:50.879 All time became greatly expanded, he writes. In many cases 167 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.120 there followed a sudden review of the individual's entire past, 168 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:57.559 and finally, the person falling often heard beautiful music, and 169 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.080 he writes of his own experience, as I fell in 170 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:03.960 eighteen seventy two, I merely heard the blows that injured 171 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:06.639 my head and back. I felt no pain. For those 172 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:10.159 who are unconscious, death can involve no more changing. It 173 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:14.120 is absolute rest. He ends, we have reached the conclusion 174 00:09:14.320 --> 00:09:18.480 that death through falling is subjectively a very pleasant death. 175 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:19.399 So yes. 176 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:22.679 Swiss geologist one of the first scientists to turn his 177 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.519 work toward collecting accounts of near death experiences, Albert Heim. 178 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.919 Also his wife Marie, was the first female physician in Switzerland, 179 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.840 and Albert loved Swiss alpine dogs, but they were about 180 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:36.360 to die out, so he haded efforts to bring back 181 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.360 some breeding programs. So next time you see a Bernese 182 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:40.960 mountain dog, say hey, Albert, glad you didn't die on 183 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:42.960 that mountain that day, even if it would have been 184 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:46.240 pretty chill. Your work wasn't yet done here, as evidenced 185 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.279 by this giant, cute dog. But why was it so chill? 186 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:52.159 Do they find that any of it is related to 187 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:56.639 brain chemicals for anxiety? Like just the oh shit, oh shit, 188 00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:00.320 oh shit response, or how do you even how do 189 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:01.559 you even quantify that? 190 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:05.240 Yeah, that's difficult to quantify because there are a lot 191 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:08.240 of chemicals that are released in the brain under stress, 192 00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:11.720 and we unfortunately don't have the ability to measure them 193 00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:15.120 when someone is in that near death situation. Furthermore, they're 194 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:18.559 usually just released for a short period of time, maybe 195 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.679 a second or two, and we don't even know where 196 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:23.080 in their brain to look for it. So it's virtually 197 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:27.080 impossible with our technology today to measure those things. People 198 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:31.679 have tried with non human animals, with sacrificing rats and 199 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:33.480 measuring what's going on in the brains of the time, 200 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.159 but I'm not sure how transferable that information is to 201 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:38.200 human beings. 202 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:42.519 Is there a correlation between this field of study and 203 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:44.360 consciousness in animals? 204 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:47.879 Actually, I've just finished writing a paper about this because 205 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:50.960 it's something that's not been studied to great degree. We 206 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:55.159 have a lot of anecdotes about animals who had a 207 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.759 near death event, for example, being hit by a car 208 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:01.320 or having their heart stop with a severe illness, and 209 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:04.679 then they had a dramatic personality change, much like you 210 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:07.360 see in humans when they have a near death experience. 211 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:10.480 And we also have a lot of accounts of human 212 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:13.879 near death experiences in which people claim that while they 213 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.159 were unconscious, they were greeted by deceased pets. So those 214 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:22.120 are suggestions that some type of consciousness in animals does 215 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.919 survive bodily death, but we don't have any good evidence 216 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:28.879 for that. We don't really have the ability to interview 217 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:30.879 these animals and ask them what they experienced. 218 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:33.159 I mean, unless you get a pet psychic, but I 219 00:11:33.159 --> 00:11:34.799 think those are disy at best. 220 00:11:35.799 --> 00:11:38.519 You have questions, I have the answers. 221 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:42.320 Can you explain to me what is a near death experience? 222 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:44.200 Where does it start and where does it end in 223 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:45.480 terms of the criteria. 224 00:11:46.039 --> 00:11:48.960 Yeah, well, it starts when someone is coming close to death, 225 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:53.240 and usually that's a very terrifying and painful experience. And 226 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:55.759 the first thing that happens is people are overwhelmed by 227 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:59.759 feeling of tremendous peace and well being, which is not 228 00:11:59.799 --> 00:12:02.440 what you would expect when someone is coming close to death. 229 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:06.960 They find that their thinking is faster and clearer than usual, 230 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.799 which again you wouldn't expect when their brains are shutting down. 231 00:12:10.440 --> 00:12:14.360 They have very strong emotions, usually very positive emotions. They 232 00:12:14.399 --> 00:12:18.399 have unusual sensations, like a sense of leaving the physical body. 233 00:12:19.519 --> 00:12:22.000 They have sense of being in some other realm or 234 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.600 dimension where they may encounter entities which they consider either 235 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:30.720 deceased loved ones or deities. They may review their entire 236 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.480 lives and they will say they went through their entire 237 00:12:33.519 --> 00:12:37.600 life not only saw it, but relift it in vivid detail, 238 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:40.600 and that only takes a matter of seconds or so 239 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:43.840 to go through decades of life. And at some point 240 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:47.279 they come to a border or pont of no return, 241 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.279 and then they can't go past that and still return 242 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.320 to life, and they either are sent back against their 243 00:12:52.360 --> 00:12:55.600 will or given a choice, and they choose to come 244 00:12:55.639 --> 00:12:58.080 back for a certain purpose. Of course, the ones that 245 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:00.840 don't choose don't get interviewed by who. 246 00:13:00.679 --> 00:13:05.200 Ghasted me hm right, exactly? Did you have to research 247 00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:09.840 historically what evidence we have for the last several millennia 248 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.759 about near death experiences? Did you have to work with 249 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:13.799 archaeologists at all? 250 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:17.039 Not with archaeologists. But we have lots of accounts from 251 00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:20.960 Greek and Roman historians with accounts of near death experiences 252 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.799 that are very similar to the ones we hear today. Likewise, 253 00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:27.480 we have accounts from cultures all around the world, from 254 00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:31.320 Stone Age cultures around the world, and from Hindu, Buddhist cultures, 255 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:35.080 Muslim cultures, and they have the same types of experiences 256 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:39.320 that we find in Western societies, in US and in 257 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:40.000 Western Europe. 258 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:43.080 So in his reacent book after Bruce explains his own stance, 259 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.279 and he writes, I'm a scientist comfortable dealing with this 260 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.080 world evidence, but I'm out of my element dealing with 261 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:52.600 religious doctrines and have been raised in a scientific household 262 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:55.919 without a strong sense of the divine. I was uncomfortable 263 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:00.720 with the overwhelming numbers of experiencers who described meeting some 264 00:14:00.840 --> 00:14:03.360 kind of godlike being, not just because it was not 265 00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.879 part of my personal background, but also because it seemed 266 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:10.679 like something that couldn't be verified scientifically. So, going way back, 267 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:13.639 this guy, doctor Raymond Moody, who first coined the term 268 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:17.960 near death experiences, found fifteen elements that seemed really consistent 269 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:21.360 across people and patients of all these different religious and 270 00:14:21.399 --> 00:14:24.679 spiritual and cultural backgrounds. And they are feelings of peace, 271 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:29.159 hearing unusual noises, seeing a dark tunnel, being out of 272 00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:33.559 the body, meeting spiritual beings, encountering a bright light, or 273 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:38.399 a being of light, panoramic life review, a realm where 274 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:43.399 all knowledge exists, cities of light, a realm of bewildered spirits, 275 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:48.480 supernatural rescue, a border or a limit, and coming back 276 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:51.120 into the body. So Moody described all these in nineteen 277 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:52.559 seventy five as being like, if you're going to have 278 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:54.840 a near death experience, this is probably gonna happen. And 279 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:57.559 after coming too, he found that a lot of folks 280 00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:01.960 had the same after effects of them being frustrated trying 281 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.960 to relate the experience to other people, but also having 282 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:08.320 this deeper appreciation of life, being less afraid of death, 283 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:11.600 and sometimes freaking people out by things that they shouldn't 284 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:15.000 have seen or remembered. So these kinds of experience have 285 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.240 been consistent over these different cultures and backgrounds and religions 286 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:22.120 and spiritual beliefs. And Bruce says also over time. Oh wow, 287 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:26.440 so for longer than it would take to be a 288 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.559 fleeting trend or something like a social contagion. 289 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:33.120 Right, there's no question that people back in the ancient world, 290 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:36.399 long before we had Christianity, had the same types of 291 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:38.120 new death experiences we have now. 292 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:38.799 Now. 293 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.399 Of course, we didn't have any way of measuring their 294 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.679 physiology back then, but we're still on the ground level 295 00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:45.919 of finding out how to do that now. 296 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:49.360 And I know you wrote a paper near death Experiences 297 00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:53.440 in spirituality and with the topic of religion. Where does 298 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.639 this split between it being a spiritual experience and a 299 00:15:56.720 --> 00:15:59.320 religious experience, because I'm sure some people are like I 300 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:01.639 was in heaven and other people like I don't know, 301 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.440 I saw white light or myself on an operating table. 302 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:09.039 Yeah, that's a good questionality. Most people who have a 303 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:13.039 near death experience say they are tremendously transformed by it, 304 00:16:13.120 --> 00:16:14.960 And the first thing say is that they're no longer 305 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.919 afraid of death, no matter what the near death experience 306 00:16:19.000 --> 00:16:21.200 was composed of. They feel like they're looking forward to 307 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:25.320 death eventually, but that paradostically makes them more willing to 308 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:28.759 engage in life. They feel that there's no reason they 309 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:31.120 shouldn't go ahead and jump in with both feet and 310 00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.720 enjoy all there is to life and take risks because 311 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.320 what's the worst that can happen? You die, and that's good. 312 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:40.519 So they feel much more joyful about life and also 313 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:42.399 less frightened about death. 314 00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:44.240 But don't get too excited about being a corpse. 315 00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:46.799 I was to say that people who have come close 316 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.559 to death but don't have a near death experience also 317 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.960 tend to value life more highly, but they don't have 318 00:16:54.039 --> 00:16:56.480 this decreased fear of death. They tend to fear death more. 319 00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:56.960 So. 320 00:16:57.039 --> 00:16:59.720 If someone has had a near death event like a 321 00:16:59.799 --> 00:17:03.879 motorcycle crash, but not a near death experience where things 322 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:07.880 get all like flunky, then they may still find life precious, 323 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:10.839 but they're not looking forward to death like that. Shit's 324 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.400 still a horrifying proposition for them. So a near death 325 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.240 event and a near death experience might hit a little different. 326 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.240 And just like all cacti are succulents, but not all 327 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:25.000 succulents are cacti, all near death experiences come from a 328 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:28.400 near death event, but not all near death events result 329 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:29.519 in a near death experience. 330 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:30.519 You with me now. 331 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.279 Most near death experiences say they're much more spiritual now 332 00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:35.519 than they were before, and by that they do not 333 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:39.559 mean they're more religious. They say they feel more connected 334 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:43.440 to other people, to the natural world, to the divine, 335 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.839 and this gives them a sense of compassion for other people. 336 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.799 They often come back saying that they experienced in their 337 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:53.640 near death experience that they are the same as every 338 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:57.079 other person, and they're intimately connected with other people. And 339 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.039 if you believe that, then it doesn't make sense to 340 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.640 hurt other people because you're just hurting yourself, or to 341 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:06.839 try to get ahead at someone else's expense. And I've 342 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:10.039 known lots of people who had to change their careers 343 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.559 after a near death experience. People who are in a 344 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.240 violent profession, such as career military officers or police officers 345 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:20.279 who just could not think about hurting someone shooting someone 346 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:22.960 after the NDE. And people who were in cut through 347 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:25.920 businesses who had to leave their jobs, and they usually 348 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:30.720 end up training into something like healthcare or social work 349 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.759 or clergy or teaching something where they're helping other people 350 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.599 rather than hurting them. I've heard these same changes from 351 00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:40.200 people who were atheists before the near death experience, and 352 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:44.200 again they become much more spiritual, but not necessarily more religious. 353 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:47.440 They tend to feel that all our religions are man 354 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:49.839 made approximations of what's really going on. 355 00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:54.359 I feel like some of these changes in perspective, and 356 00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:57.960 even some of the experience of it, sounds a lot 357 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:06.160 like someone I know did mushrooms named me once. Do 358 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:12.000 you find any correlations between psychedelic substances and what people experience. 359 00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.039 I know that they use it too for the termally 360 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:16.200 ill to sort of confront and existential fear. 361 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:21.279 Yes. Yes, there's definitely a lot of similarities between what 362 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:24.640 we have in the new death experience and spiritual experiences 363 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.440 from other causes, and one of those causes is often 364 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:33.079 psychedelic drugs. And people have been reporting these experiences for centuries, 365 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:35.799 of a sense of leaving their bodies and encountering some 366 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:39.640 other realm or dimension and then returning to this quote 367 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.720 normal everyday life with a much more spiritual outlook. It 368 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.960 doesn't happen as reliably with drugs. Drugs often have a 369 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:52.200 lot of negative trips as well, but it does happen now. 370 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.160 Several years ago, I was part of an international group 371 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.720 that compared hundreds of accounts of near death experiences with 372 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.599 thousands of accounts of psychedelic drug trips with different drugs, 373 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.519 and we tried to look at which drugs produced the 374 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.119 experience that was most like a near death experience, and 375 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:15.240 it turned out the number one drugs was ketamine, which 376 00:20:15.279 --> 00:20:20.279 is aesthetic that's used mostly for animals, not for people 377 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.599 very much, because it often produces unpleasant experiences in people. 378 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:27.440 So, according to the paper Essential veterinary use of ketamine, 379 00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:31.160 ketamine is like the MVP of those dark guns used 380 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:35.039 to sedate zoo animals and wildlife, and it's used also 381 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:39.480 as a surgical anesthesia for horses and camels, so, in 382 00:20:39.519 --> 00:20:44.400 addition to cattle and tigers, other species that use ketamine 383 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.920 or ravers calling it special K and sometimes slipping into 384 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:51.480 a mid groove dissociative state known as a K hole. 385 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.079 So ketamine therapy can be an effective option for treatment 386 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:59.480 resistant depression when it's administered in a calm setting by 387 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.519 doctor who read the instructions on the box. But why 388 00:21:03.519 --> 00:21:06.039 would anyone want to take a horse anesthetic on a 389 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:09.079 Saturday night in a loud room that's dark with a 390 00:21:09.079 --> 00:21:13.440 bunch of strangers. Well, according to Bruce's paper Neurochemical Models 391 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.079 of Near Death Experiences, a large scale study based on 392 00:21:16.119 --> 00:21:18.680 the semantic similarity of written reports published in the Journal 393 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:22.359 of Consciousness and Cognition from twenty nineteen, the researchers right 394 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:26.000 that near death experiences often result in a state of 395 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:30.039 consciousness characterized by the perception of leaving the body, feelings 396 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.519 of peace and bliss, and timelessness, a life review, the 397 00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:37.680 sensation of traveling through a tunnel, and an irreversible threshold. 398 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.279 So these researchers looked at fifteen thousand reports linked to 399 00:21:41.319 --> 00:21:44.839 the use of one hundred and sixty five psychoactive substances, 400 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.200 and they found that little drum roll here. 401 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.319