Speaker 1: Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning.
Speaker 2: Well, hello, how are you? How are you doing? This
Speaker 2: is Cliff, your host of Destiny, and I do hope
Speaker 2: you're doing well. Today we have a I think an
Speaker 2: important program today. It has to do with vision questing,
Speaker 2: working with trauma, and working with shamanic techniques that release
Speaker 2: trauma in a more natural sense of the term. And
Speaker 2: when I say that, we have had we've had people
Speaker 2: on the program talking about working with psychedelics. That's another
Speaker 2: word for plant medicine. And when we look at the
Speaker 2: indigenous use of plant medicines, and we'll learn more about
Speaker 2: this today, that they were typically not introduced until other
Speaker 2: types of vision quester journeying was completed. And one of
Speaker 2: the areas that I have learned and known about for
Speaker 2: years and participated in is drumming drum circles, because what
Speaker 2: happens when you are in a drum circle or you're
Speaker 2: focusing on your own drumming, you go into an altered state.
Speaker 2: And in those altered states, you can begin working with
Speaker 2: what they call the shadow, bringing out the shadow, working
Speaker 2: with traumatic incidents, working with ancestral trauma, which is a
Speaker 2: big theme right now, and I think, and I'm not
Speaker 2: a big advocate of psychedelics, although we've had people on
Speaker 2: the program talking about ayahuasca, dmt LSD, even in microdoses,
Speaker 2: which is the favorite focus for a lot of people,
Speaker 2: younger people, I guess, but it's not necessarily the way
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, including myself. And today we're
Speaker 2: gonna hear from two people that I would consider shamans
Speaker 2: in their own right. In fact, one of my guests
Speaker 2: actually has worked with Shamantic tribes or native tribes in
Speaker 2: the United States. And again, they don't really advocate using
Speaker 2: plant medicines until after a period of time. In fact,
Speaker 2: sometimes it's a couple of years to do journeying work
Speaker 2: with so you know, it might be the quick need
Speaker 2: for or the need for quick gratification that a lot
Speaker 2: of us in the western side of the world are
Speaker 2: interested in. And I have friends that are using, you know, ayahuasca.
Speaker 2: They talk about their journey. What if I were using
Speaker 2: plant medicines too soon? What if we're advocating the use
Speaker 2: of this rather than doing the homework. And I have
Speaker 2: been wondering about this for a while, and this is
Speaker 2: why we have our guests today to talk about the
Speaker 2: importance of using a system of therapeutic approaches from a
Speaker 2: shamanistic indigenous point of view, and then opening to a
Speaker 2: plant medicine journey using mushroom, psilocybin, ayahuasca or DMT. The
Speaker 2: thought of using ayahuasca is one of that you really
Speaker 2: have to prepare for. And you know, when we have
Speaker 2: Graham Hancock on the program, he's done. I think it's
Speaker 2: seventy different journeys with ayahuasca. In some cases he's gone
Speaker 2: all the way down to Peru, and he actually talks
Speaker 2: about a couple of different elders, shamatic elders that he
Speaker 2: is he has used for his journeying. But everybody is different,
Speaker 2: everybody is in a different process. If you are new
Speaker 2: to the consideration of using plant medicines, I think this
Speaker 2: will be a good program for you today because the
Speaker 2: approach is a little bit different. And again, according to
Speaker 2: my guest today, indigenous cultures did not introduce plant medicines
Speaker 2: until a good deal of prep work was done identifying
Speaker 2: the problem areas working with drumming, working with dreaming. We're
Speaker 2: gonna talk about lucid dreaming. We haven't talked a great
Speaker 2: deal recently about lucid dreaming, which is a very, very
Speaker 2: powerful aspect of dreaming. But actually you have to get
Speaker 2: into the repetition of remember your your dreams, having regular
Speaker 2: dreams before you go to bed, closing your eyes, and
Speaker 2: having an intention to have a good, solid dream on
Speaker 2: a topic. I want to dream that defines the relationship
Speaker 2: that I currently have. I want to dream that helps
Speaker 2: me understand my work situation. I want to dream about
Speaker 2: you know, this work that I am doing, and so
Speaker 2: forth and so on. So these dreams are a part
Speaker 2: of our consciousness that we don't really I mean, dream work,
Speaker 2: dream journaling is really sacred. And I'm one of these
Speaker 2: people that go to bed and I'm gone, and I
Speaker 2: probably remember my dream I probably have dreams, but I
Speaker 2: just don't wake up. And so I'm the worst person
Speaker 2: right now to be remembering my dreams, promoting my dreams,
Speaker 2: and intending that have good therapeutic dreams. Now, I don't
Speaker 2: remember ever having a lucid dream. But over the years
Speaker 2: I've I've featured people who are experts on lucid dreaming,
Speaker 2: and from the sound from the sound of it, it's
Speaker 2: just in what I've read, it sounds it's just amazing.
Speaker 2: It's like a form of a different reality. It's so real,
Speaker 2: and there's techniques to understand that you are in a
Speaker 2: lucid state of consciousness and lucid dream. So and so
Speaker 2: I think you're gonna enjoy today's program, you know, because
Speaker 2: it is a prep for the potential of using plant
Speaker 2: medicines or in many many cases, the journey, the healing,
Speaker 2: the vision quest that takes place outside of using plant medicines,
Speaker 2: powerful plant medicines, so that you in some cases don't
Speaker 2: even have to worry about using plant medicines. And as
Speaker 2: you'll hear today, there's a lot of our population that
Speaker 2: doesn't need to use psychedelics and other powerful plant medicines
Speaker 2: to induce other states of consciousness. So today's program is
Speaker 2: navigating liminal realms. And my guests are Norma and Nisha Burton,
Speaker 2: mother and daughter authors. This is a great segue into
Speaker 2: our tours. We have a Guatemala tour coming up. It's
Speaker 2: the Sacred Temples of Guatemala, December first, the twelfth. I'll
Speaker 2: tell you what's beautiful about this tour is that we
Speaker 2: will be working with shaman. We will be working with
Speaker 2: people who are sensitive to energy, and we have hands
Speaker 2: on access to climb some of the largest and most
Speaker 2: important pyramids and temples in all of Central America. This
Speaker 2: is a wonderful tour, not only because it is great
Speaker 2: for enhancing your consciousness and also healing trauma, but we'll
Speaker 2: also have a chance to do sessions together. We'll also
Speaker 2: have a chance to be with people who are sensitive
Speaker 2: to energy, who understand the energy that it's emitting from
Speaker 2: these various temples and pyramids. Again, this is not to
Speaker 2: be missed. We have some special additions for you. The
Speaker 2: price is going to be increasing in August, so if
Speaker 2: you can get on board before the last part of
Speaker 2: the month, and also those who sign up between now
Speaker 2: and the first part of November will receive the full program,
Speaker 2: tapes and audios of the Atlantis Summit that just happened
Speaker 2: last month, and you get a bonus program of Lydia
Speaker 2: Di Leong and Arturo Di Leong, Sacred Geometry, Sacred Building
Speaker 2: Mechanisms and Sacred Energy. Finally, those who sign up before
Speaker 2: the end of the month get an Earth Ancient's T
Speaker 2: shirt complete with the latest logo designs that we have
Speaker 2: been working on. The Sacred Pyramid tour of Guatemala December first,
Speaker 2: the twelfth. For all the details and all the information,
Speaker 2: go to earthacients dot com forward slash tours, look for
Speaker 2: the banner, click it and register. I'm always looking for
Speaker 2: interesting books on not only working with psychedelics, but also
Speaker 2: dealing with trauma and dealing with trauma in a way
Speaker 2: where you can identify it, which I think a lot
Speaker 2: of us have a problem with. I admit to that.
Speaker 2: I'll raise my hands with that. Where is my trauma?
Speaker 2: What is my trauma? But moving beyond that into therapeutic
Speaker 2: approaches that are beneficial and not so much painful, And
Speaker 2: I think sometimes people get into situations where they're having
Speaker 2: some problems. My guests today are a mother and daughter team,
Speaker 2: Norma Burton and Nisha Burton, who've written a book called
Speaker 2: Navigating Liminal Realms, and I have to tell you I
Speaker 2: liked it a lot because we're talking about working with
Speaker 2: psychedelics but also identifying trauma through more traditional means. Norma
Speaker 2: is a counselor with a degree in comparative religion, focusing
Speaker 2: on Buddhism or Buddhist and Shamanic traditions. She specializes in
Speaker 2: trauma healing, shadow work, and dream analysis. A Nisha is
Speaker 2: a skilled dream worker and we're going to talk a
Speaker 2: lot about lucid dreaming today as well. Trained in the
Speaker 2: art of journeying and the deep subconscious from a young age.
Speaker 2: So those are great. So, guys, welcome to Destiny. Great
Speaker 2: to have you on the program, Thanks.
Speaker 3: For having us.
Speaker 1: Excited to be here.
Speaker 2: Norma, I want to talk really with you first. One
Speaker 2: of the things I really like about the book is
Speaker 2: the kind of Indigenous background that you have, and you
Speaker 2: kind of carry that through the book as a foundation
Speaker 2: and little bit about how you have been impressed by
Speaker 2: Indigenous therapeutic approaches, how they as a people, as different
Speaker 2: tribes or whatever go about working with trauma.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, we all have a deep indigeneity,
Speaker 1: which means connection to the earth in our lineages, right,
Speaker 1: but many of the Western lineages have been so cut
Speaker 1: off from our earth based roots. But it's a creation
Speaker 1: centered spirituality, so that means going to nature, to valuing
Speaker 1: being with plants, animals and other consciousnesses that can help
Speaker 1: us and guide us. And we really think and must
Speaker 1: do many things to be thankful for and help indigenous
Speaker 1: peoples on the Earth who have held these traditions alive
Speaker 1: all through the centuries and have gone through a lot
Speaker 1: of suffering to try to do that. So I grew
Speaker 1: up on a Native American reservation where my grandparents were
Speaker 1: adopted into the tribe, and then that created in me
Speaker 1: a deep desire to study with and be with indigenous
Speaker 1: Native people in many places. So I traveled around the
Speaker 1: United States in Mexico and Central America and South America
Speaker 1: through my twenties and thirties and forties to be immersed
Speaker 1: in these cultures and learned from amazing teachers that had
Speaker 1: not lost touch and were the bearers of this information.
Speaker 1: So in regard to what is unique about it beautiful
Speaker 1: about indigenous teachings, like I've just said, being in touch
Speaker 1: with nature, but then also navigating one's inner cosmos, that
Speaker 1: we have a birthright that we must explore our deep unconscious.
Speaker 1: So the first thing that you do in shamanic or
Speaker 1: a ritual that is it's based on nature like this,
Speaker 1: is you dig into the earth, and it also is
Speaker 1: symbolizing digging into your own deep unconscious. So we go
Speaker 1: down and in first, not up and out. And so
Speaker 1: many of the patriarchal oriented religions, whatever we want to
Speaker 1: say about the disconnect from the earth, they teach you
Speaker 1: to go up and out and to flee from what
Speaker 1: they call hell or the darkness or the body, to
Speaker 1: flee from that as if that is evil. But no,
Speaker 1: indigenous teachings will always tell you to go down and
Speaker 1: in into your body, into the earth, into your deep unconscious.
Speaker 1: So stop talking there for a minute. But that's one
Speaker 1: distinctive part about is.
Speaker 2: There something about the actual act of digging that triggers
Speaker 2: the mind? And I'm thinking they're drumming as as somebody
Speaker 2: is doing this digging, because you're there's a portion of
Speaker 2: your book that's very focused on drumming. But is there
Speaker 2: something happened to the person who is beginning this therapeutic
Speaker 2: journey that they're digging and triggering, like releasing trauma or something.
Speaker 1: Yes, in the shamanic drumming, you know, the shaman, the
Speaker 1: leader is drumming just a steady beat, and that is
Speaker 1: actually it's been proven scientifically, and we speak about this
Speaker 1: in the book. That's aligning your brain waves with a
Speaker 1: certain energy that's called the earth energy. So it's bringing
Speaker 1: your brain waves down into concentration that enables you to
Speaker 1: be receptive, to be hearing, the feeling, hearing, sensing in
Speaker 1: all ways, the energies of the earth. And so the
Speaker 1: digging process is the ancient method of getting your brain
Speaker 1: to focus, because our brains are so easily distracted and
Speaker 1: you know, monkey mind led in all directions, and so
Speaker 1: the digging is, in this meditative practice, the way to
Speaker 1: get your mind to focus. But it's very symbolic to
Speaker 1: the right of going down into the earth and getting
Speaker 1: your fingernails dirty and getting down in there, but down
Speaker 1: into your own deeper unconscious too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Nisha, what do you feel about this native tradition
Speaker 2: that your mom is bringing forward. I mean, obviously you're
Speaker 2: living that and you're around that all the time, but
Speaker 2: as a younger person, how do you adapt that information.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been so wonderful to grow up in the
Speaker 3: way I have, and I really am grateful to my
Speaker 3: mom for raising me in this very multicultural way. From
Speaker 3: the time I was a child, she was leading tours
Speaker 3: to sacred sites around the world and working with indigenous
Speaker 3: teachers and healers and shawmans, and so I joined her
Speaker 3: on all of those trips and I really got to
Speaker 3: see how various cultures approach reality and the dream time
Speaker 3: and ordinary reality, and how it can be so different
Speaker 3: from our Western world where the two are very cut
Speaker 3: off from one another and waking reality is held as
Speaker 3: the pinnacle of what we should all be focused on,
Speaker 3: and the dream time is diminished or disregarded, And so
Speaker 3: traveling and seeing and being immersed in these other cultures
Speaker 3: where the dream time and waking reality are much more
Speaker 3: integrated helped me in my foundational self to value the
Speaker 3: dream time along with my mom's encouragement. And then on
Speaker 3: my dad's side of the family too, we are Native
Speaker 3: American as well as African Americans, and so the indigenity
Speaker 3: and being raised in that in all ways feels very
Speaker 3: powerful because it is and then kind of being a
Speaker 3: bridge person right living in this Western world too and
Speaker 3: being able to have a foot in both worlds, so
Speaker 3: to speak, and understand that there is a craving right now,
Speaker 3: in this current time in our culture for that reconnection
Speaker 3: with the dream time and for the reconnection with these
Speaker 3: non ordinary states of consciousness, which I think is a
Speaker 3: lot of why people are very excited and seeking out
Speaker 3: psychedelics too, is to be able to experience firsthand what
Speaker 3: it's like to cross over into the dream time while awake. Still,
Speaker 3: so yeah, very grateful for how I was raised and
Speaker 3: that I can have all of these parts in me
Speaker 3: that now are being really like welcomed by the world
Speaker 3: because everybody wants to know about all these things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it. Before we started, I mentioned that
Speaker 2: I've after reading the book, I felt that you both
Speaker 2: were what you could considered present day shaman. And you know,
Speaker 2: I don't neither one of you've balked at all, because
Speaker 2: you're kind of like, well, maybe that's a definition of
Speaker 2: what we do. Well, when I say that to you, Norma,
Speaker 2: what does that imply? How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I was saying to you that the word
Speaker 1: shaman has been perhaps appropriated and overused some and so
Speaker 1: now people are tending to shy away from it. But
Speaker 1: when I was younger, I was called together by my
Speaker 1: whole community tribe, the elders, when I was seventeen, and
Speaker 1: they said, we've watched you grow up and we know
Speaker 1: you have a spiritual calling.
Speaker 2: Hmmm.
Speaker 1: So I was seen as having some you know, special
Speaker 1: psychic abilities I guess, and energy of healing, and so
Speaker 1: the only direction I knew to go was toward seminary
Speaker 1: and getting educated to be a minister, right, which I did,
Speaker 1: But all along I knew it wasn't really quite a
Speaker 1: minister in the Christian sense, although I deeply value who
Speaker 1: Christ really was, of course, which I think is one
Speaker 1: of the greatest shamans that's lived.
Speaker 2: That's a good term. I never thought about Christ he
Speaker 2: as a shaman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that I kept seeking out though, well, what
Speaker 1: are other models in the world for being a spiritual healer?
Speaker 1: And Michael Harner in the late seventies brought back the
Speaker 1: term shaman from the Amazon, but really it originated in Mongolia, right,
Speaker 1: So this word to name a spiritual healer leader in
Speaker 1: the tribe became very resonant with me, and I felt like, wow,
Speaker 1: I think this is what I felt in my soul
Speaker 1: and was called to. So I value what that concept is.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: And it's different than a priest too, you know. It's
Speaker 1: a shaman is someone who lives more on the edge
Speaker 1: of town, on the edge of society, and it's not
Speaker 1: there to just uphold the societal norms. But people come
Speaker 1: to you when they're ready to deconstruct how they have
Speaker 1: identified in the world and go into this deep deconstruction
Speaker 1: of self so that they can become more whole and
Speaker 1: more integrated. And that may be challenging to society's constructs.
Speaker 1: So that's a difference between a shaman and a priest.
Speaker 2: Working with indigenous people in some ways getting educated and mentoring.
Speaker 2: Now that you've been in practice for many years, do
Speaker 2: you think that we are missing something in our therapeutic
Speaker 2: approach the general psychological evaluation and therapy. I mean, you
Speaker 2: must be shocked at some of the stuff that is recommended,
Speaker 2: But just quick, can you give us a sense of
Speaker 2: why the path that you've chosen is more comfortable than
Speaker 2: perhaps traditional therapy.
Speaker 1: That's a great question. As I was trying to into
Speaker 1: it and be carefully crafting and being informed by spirit
Speaker 1: about my career path, I made several key choices because
Speaker 1: I saw the psychoelmic world is going in a direction
Speaker 1: of more and more clinical rigidity and uprating the healer
Speaker 1: from the people, putting oneself on a pedestal and being
Speaker 1: not affected by and I always knew that wasn't true.
Speaker 1: I always felt a deep inter beingness and yet you
Speaker 1: know to have good boundaries, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: know that we are not so separate from the ones
Speaker 1: that were healing. So a book then later came out
Speaker 1: that validated it, called Present and there's ay done by
Speaker 1: a psychiatrists in New York that showed that no, the
Speaker 1: therapist is not an unaffected observer, that we are a
Speaker 1: part of the community.
Speaker 3: So I.
Speaker 1: Veered away from being a clinical psychologist and went toward
Speaker 1: pastoral counseling, which you still get a deep training in
Speaker 1: all aspects of abnormal psychology and psychology, but you're moved
Speaker 1: into a communal role. So that's one part of it.
Speaker 1: The communal role where you're in the position of being
Speaker 1: with the people not so separated off. You have to
Speaker 1: learn really good boundaries and confidentiality. But at the same
Speaker 1: time you are an anamkara, a friend to the soul
Speaker 1: of people in the community. That's one thing. A second
Speaker 1: thing that's different is animism. That we are living in
Speaker 1: an animistic world and we are part of it. We
Speaker 1: are animals too, so to speak, you know, we are
Speaker 1: part of the spirituality of the natural environment and that
Speaker 1: can't be cut off. So early on I went towards
Speaker 1: trans personal psychology as it was developed in my youth right,
Speaker 1: that we don't separate ourselves from the spiritual dimensions. That's
Speaker 1: a very important part of counseling. And so we accept
Speaker 1: that we are greater than these bodies that were not
Speaker 1: just limited to ordinary reality. So that's another part of it.
Speaker 1: And then another part of it is that we are
Speaker 1: ritual oriented. So ritual is very important to humans, you know,
Speaker 1: doing things that connect us to the spiritual realm. So
Speaker 1: my counseling process involves various rituals that I've been taught
Speaker 1: by the Weechul and others to bring people into contact. Hey,
Speaker 1: we're not just two humans doing this together. We are
Speaker 1: in connection with things greater than ourselves, with great spirit,
Speaker 1: and we're being met and guided. So those are some
Speaker 1: ways that I think the shamanic type counseling is different.
Speaker 2: You know, I was thinking, we just came out of
Speaker 2: this pandemic, and if you guys are doing the therapy
Speaker 2: work on Zoom, they imagine that my imagination was going
Speaker 2: to a drumming circle on Zoom. Did you guys do that?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's kind right. I mean, you don't get
Speaker 2: the same effect because the vibration isn't the same because
Speaker 2: you're being passed through the little speakers, but maybe the
Speaker 2: visual of everybody beating their drums still has the same effect.
Speaker 1: I guess definitely do it all on zoom, And yet
Speaker 1: in my counseling process, like I have several weeks and
Speaker 1: sessions that we can do it all on zoom, but
Speaker 1: then I say, now we have to be together in person.
Speaker 1: There's certain junctures in the deep journey to completion process
Speaker 1: where I bring everybody together in person, because you're so
Speaker 1: right that the energetic presence, in vibrational reality of being
Speaker 1: in person is different than being a zoom.
Speaker 2: Fantastic nishe Your book covers the topic of the shadow,
Speaker 2: and a lot of people don't understand what the shadow is.
Speaker 2: What is the shadow and why is it so important
Speaker 2: to identify the various aspects.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's true that a lot of people talk
Speaker 3: about the shadow nowadays and invoke it and then don't
Speaker 3: necessarily know what to do with it or how to
Speaker 3: handle it. And I again feel really grateful to be
Speaker 3: raised by my mom and her modality of shadow work
Speaker 3: that she teaches, which is called the Journey to Completion,
Speaker 3: because it feels like it is one of the most
Speaker 3: accurate systems out there for identifying the shadow and understanding
Speaker 3: how to work with it and then how to actually
Speaker 3: bring it all the way through to healing so that
Speaker 3: you can get the gift out of it. So I'll
Speaker 3: begin talking about the shadow, and then my mom can
Speaker 3: also talk about it. But the shadow she always talks
Speaker 3: about is when somebody experiences trauma, then there's a split
Speaker 3: that happens, and one part of you goes into the persona,
Speaker 3: which is who you present to the world, and then
Speaker 3: the other part goes down into the shadow, and that's
Speaker 3: the part that you might have had to suppress or
Speaker 3: to silence your voice, to put things down in there.
Speaker 3: And we're always seeking to come back into wholeness. But
Speaker 3: if we're operating from this place of being split, then
Speaker 3: a lot of times we're working with projections and seeing
Speaker 3: the shadow externally. And she has a really amazing way
Speaker 3: of framing the shadow too, that's very unique. Where there's
Speaker 3: inner shadow, which is how you are reacting to situations,
Speaker 3: and there's the outer shadow, which is the people that
Speaker 3: are triggering you or the situations that you're currently seeing
Speaker 3: appear in your life. These patterns and these people that
Speaker 3: are personifying these energies that are irritating to you and
Speaker 3: are triggering to you, but it's because it's part of
Speaker 3: the shadow pattern that exists together within yourself. So with
Speaker 3: her work, what she does is she helps people to
Speaker 3: really name those things, to trace the traumas as they've
Speaker 3: occurred related to a particular shadow pattern, and then to
Speaker 3: do the work of be integrating the shadow. And a
Speaker 3: lot of what I talk about too is with the
Speaker 3: dream time, you will see the shadow appear in the
Speaker 3: form of nightmares, in the form of recurrent dreams. This
Speaker 3: is your psyche trying to work through these shadow patterns
Speaker 3: and work through these past traumas. But if people don't
Speaker 3: have the right skills or tools to work through them,
Speaker 3: then a lot of times that can be something that
Speaker 3: turns them off from the dream time too, because maybe
Speaker 3: they're having a lot of nightmares and are like, I
Speaker 3: don't want to remember my dreams. I don't want to
Speaker 3: be in touch with my dream time because it's a horrible,
Speaker 3: scary place, right But really understanding, no, that is your
Speaker 3: inner world, your psyche letting you know, hey, there's something
Speaker 3: that I want to work through, and I'm going to
Speaker 3: present this to you over and over again and in
Speaker 3: stronger ways until you start to listen to it and
Speaker 3: then seek out and waking reality, the shadow work help,
Speaker 3: and then in the dream time, the lucid dreaming work
Speaker 3: that you can do with nightmares and the shadow and
Speaker 3: the dream time is really powerful. So we can talk
Speaker 3: more about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk more about lucid dreaming, which
Speaker 2: is kind of your sweet spot. But norma you use
Speaker 2: a term called psycho navigation as a theme in the
Speaker 2: therapeutic work that you do. Can you define that a
Speaker 2: little bit and how you and this is this theme
Speaker 2: runs through the book. How this is the important aspect
Speaker 2: of identifying problematic trauma and how to resolve it. This
Speaker 2: is the beginning of it. And we're going to talk
Speaker 2: about the three key elements in a minute. But if
Speaker 2: we could just get the psycho navigation to find I
Speaker 2: really appreciate that, right.
Speaker 1: That's the theme of our book, psycho meaning the psyche,
Speaker 1: the conscious and unconscious navigation. Like you're navigating a ship,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to have a map and orient
Speaker 1: yourself so that you know where you're going and where
Speaker 1: you want to get to. So we have the premise
Speaker 1: in this book that in ancient cultures that are like
Speaker 1: we've been talking about, shamanic nature based people were taught
Speaker 1: from the time they were children to learn how to
Speaker 1: navigate in their own psyche through the dream time. They
Speaker 1: were taught navigation skills. And this came about all over
Speaker 1: the world in a similar way of valuing dreams and
Speaker 1: learning from them, and of going into the altered state
Speaker 1: by being let in there by a drum. And then
Speaker 1: in that altered state there are geographies to explore. And
Speaker 1: I've done this work with people all over the world
Speaker 1: and it's amazing how humans in Japan, South America, Europe
Speaker 1: all go to similar geographies in the dream time. Now
Speaker 1: what does that mean? We humans have these places that
Speaker 1: actually exist in altered states that we go to. So
Speaker 1: I've learned these maps, you know, for over forty years,
Speaker 1: these maps of the inner terrain, and then I discovered
Speaker 1: that just a few years ago that there are shamanic
Speaker 1: drums being discovered from ancient times in different cultures like
Speaker 1: the Sami and Norway all tie way down in Lower Russia,
Speaker 1: in all these different places where shamans made the maps
Speaker 1: on their drumhead of the places that they were exploring,
Speaker 1: and they were very similar to the maps that I've
Speaker 1: journeyed on myself and watched people exploring. So psycho navigating
Speaker 1: implies there are maps to follow, there are large general maps,
Speaker 1: and then you have to discover the map of your
Speaker 1: own inner pathways in your psyche. So this is the
Speaker 1: work that people are jumping into, kind of into the
Speaker 1: deep end when they take psychedelics, because you're going to
Speaker 1: be going into these altered space zones but quite unaware
Speaker 1: of what the patterns are and how to navigate there.
Speaker 1: So that's why in our book, we're really trying to
Speaker 1: let people know, hey, there are precursor methods that you
Speaker 1: can develop that you can learn how to gradually, step
Speaker 1: by step navigate well and purposefully and accurately in your
Speaker 1: inner domains.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just want to.
Speaker 1: Add something to that too.
Speaker 3: In our book, we talk a lot about this concept
Speaker 3: of monophasic versus polyphasic awareness, and what those terms mean
Speaker 3: is monophasic is when you're aware of one phase of
Speaker 3: consciousness of reality, and polyphasic, as you can hear in
Speaker 3: the word, means many phases. And so our culture is
Speaker 3: very monophasicly oriented, meaning we're aware of waking reality. That's
Speaker 3: what we put the importance on like I said earlier,
Speaker 3: and that's all we regard really and are told to
Speaker 3: forget our dream time, forget these other realms that we're
Speaker 3: venturing into. But polyphasic cultures really appreciate and value all
Speaker 3: the phases we go through. And why I bring it
Speaker 3: up in relation to what my mom's talking about is
Speaker 3: to be aware of the subtle because I feel like
Speaker 3: in our culture we get so oriented towards extremes, and
Speaker 3: so that's why psychedelics too, can be really alluring because
Speaker 3: there's an extreme experience of an altered state of consciousness.
Speaker 3: But truly we are constantly being altered, and we drink
Speaker 3: caffeine and then we're altered that way, or we have
Speaker 3: a charged experience with somebody, we're altered that way. In
Speaker 3: the dream time, we're in another state of consciousness. And
Speaker 3: so what we're teaching people, as you can hear, is
Speaker 3: to be very present and aware continuously of what state
Speaker 3: of reality they're in and what state of reality their
Speaker 3: consciousness is in, because when you track that, when you
Speaker 3: learn the maps of that, then you can live and
Speaker 3: dream with more lucidity, which is what we talk about,
Speaker 3: because you're really taking note of where your consciousness is
Speaker 3: in every moment.
Speaker 2: I like that. We're going to take a short commercial
Speaker 2: break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we
Speaker 2: will return shortly with my guests today, authors Norma and
Speaker 2: Nisha Burton, discussing their new book, Navigating Liminal Realms, will
Speaker 2: be right back. My guests today are Norma and Nisha Burton,
Speaker 2: a mother and daughter team who've written a new book
Speaker 2: on shamanic journeying called Navigating Liminal Realms. The premise of
Speaker 2: the book, I feel, is that you need to do
Speaker 2: the work before you take the psychedelics. And I like
Speaker 2: that because I think a nishe you phrase it beautifully.
Speaker 2: I think people want to quick fix and they want
Speaker 2: to take LSD or ayahuasca because everyone else is doing
Speaker 2: it and they're missing out on the fact that our
Speaker 2: Native elders were doing work and at the very end
Speaker 2: of a ceremony or whatever, after perhaps weeks or maybe
Speaker 2: even months, then a piote experience was delivered. Talk a
Speaker 2: little bit about that, Norma, and this is I think
Speaker 2: the fundamental basis of your book is that drumming dream
Speaker 2: work prior to doing the psychedelic journeying is really critical,
Speaker 2: isn't it.
Speaker 1: Yes, that is exactly the premise of our book and
Speaker 1: why we felt it was crucial timing to get the
Speaker 1: book out there because there's so much seeking of altered
Speaker 1: states through psychedelics going on, like we know, and there's
Speaker 1: done also a lot of exploitation and danger that is
Speaker 1: developing right and people are lots of times not having
Speaker 1: very good experiences because they're not taking it more slowly.
Speaker 1: So the book shows that there are ways to have
Speaker 1: amazing altered state experiences naturally without them being induced by
Speaker 1: any substance. Because that's who we are. We have an
Speaker 1: inner cosmos that we are meant to explore. And as
Speaker 1: Niche was saying, there are subtle ways that we as
Speaker 1: humans were taught by our shaman guides from the time
Speaker 1: that you're a child to be aware of subtleties so
Speaker 1: that you grow in your ability. It's like growing your neurons,
Speaker 1: you know, growing your brain power to be much more
Speaker 1: aware of subtleties and energy. It's all about energy right
Speaker 1: in our energetic exchange. So when you slow it all
Speaker 1: down and then teach people to walk this path of
Speaker 1: inner awareness with more subtlety. You become more masterful in
Speaker 1: ordinary reality dealing with energetic exchanges, as well as more
Speaker 1: masterful in the dream time. And so there's the word impeccable.
Speaker 1: I use that word a lot that we're heading toward
Speaker 1: wanting to be more impeccable with energy, in other words,
Speaker 1: doing the right thing in any particular moment with the
Speaker 1: energies that are present. So you've got to be aware
Speaker 1: of what the energies are, be aware of your own
Speaker 1: energy system and your own abilities and skills so that
Speaker 1: you do the right thing in the moment. And I
Speaker 1: think that's what shamans have been trying to train people,
Speaker 1: and with the use of psychedelics too, that you then
Speaker 1: get big revelations about ways that you haven't been impeccable,
Speaker 1: or ways that energy has been misused around you and
Speaker 1: you've been traumatized by it. You get to be very
Speaker 1: aware of that in an extreme way on a psychedelic journey. So,
Speaker 1: like you're saying, the messages of the psychedelic journey were
Speaker 1: meant to punctuate a lot of inner work. So when
Speaker 1: I worked with the Weichow for many years, for example,
Speaker 1: we did a lot of slow in our work with
Speaker 1: them over a long period of time, and then we
Speaker 1: would be given the peyote. It was a huge revelation
Speaker 1: that brought together all that we'd been learning about ourselves.
Speaker 1: And then they would tell us go slowly afterwards, and
Speaker 1: we weren't allowed to take the peyote again for maybe
Speaker 1: two years.
Speaker 2: Wow, a lot of.
Speaker 1: You needed to integrate it and go very slowly in
Speaker 1: the integration of it. So, yeah, I think indigenous cultures
Speaker 1: didn't just use it over and over and over again
Speaker 1: in such close repetition, you know.
Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, I was going to ask you, how quickly
Speaker 2: did they introduce psychedelics in the indigenous tradition for you?
Speaker 2: Was it like after a month, a year, or at
Speaker 2: the end of a cycle of learning or what.
Speaker 1: Yes, at the end of a cycle of learning. So
Speaker 1: for me, it was several years of being with them, and.
Speaker 2: That seems more natural to me. You know, I think
Speaker 2: people are jumping into ayahuasca right now, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: that's just that's just Western culture. You know. We don't
Speaker 2: want to sit still and we don't want to do
Speaker 2: the work.
Speaker 3: Well quick fixes. And I feel like that is something
Speaker 3: that the movement has kind of capitalized on. In some
Speaker 3: ways where it's like selling the miracle drugs of the
Speaker 3: next thing. You're going to do one mushroom journey and
Speaker 3: you're going to be healed from all your depression, and
Speaker 3: like we're talking about, yes, they can be really powerful
Speaker 3: punctuation tools to give you that insight and to create
Speaker 3: the neuroplasticity. But then it's nice now because more people
Speaker 3: are talking about integration, and that's the true change happens,
Speaker 3: the preparation and the integration. And so really with many
Speaker 3: plant medicines, the integration is going to be unfolding in you.
Speaker 3: For like my mom was saying many years and especially
Speaker 3: right after going on a plant medicine journey, the dreams
Speaker 3: that you're having, the mess that you're receiving, the synchronicities
Speaker 3: that you're seeing in your waking reality and your dream time,
Speaker 3: all of this is the medicine still speaking to you
Speaker 3: and still working with you. But then if you rush
Speaker 3: to the next journey, if you rush to the next thing,
Speaker 3: Oh I heard that this, you know, psychedelic is really great.
Speaker 3: I'm going to do this next weekend, then you're probably
Speaker 3: missing a lot of the messages, and that change doesn't
Speaker 3: have an opportunity to actually take hold because you're just
Speaker 3: running to the next thing, the next thing.
Speaker 2: No, I really like that definition nische, because opening neural
Speaker 2: pathways is not a small deal. It's a big deal,
Speaker 2: and you should let it unfold before taking on another journey.
Speaker 2: And as your mom was mentioning, that can take years. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because these are powerful stimulants to the brain. You know,
Speaker 2: so perhaps the whole idea of continually microdosiness and such
Speaker 2: a great idea after all, you know, because you're not
Speaker 2: allowing the journey to unfold.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll address the microdosing in a second, but I
Speaker 1: just wanted to say to what you're both saying. I
Speaker 1: talk about unmetabolized shadow unmetabolized you know, so you're bringing
Speaker 1: up the shadow material. But then if you just go
Speaker 1: right on to the next alter experience and next, you
Speaker 1: can see how you're not taking the time to metabolize
Speaker 1: what's been given to you. So I've counseled a lot
Speaker 1: of people that are under a shadow, so to speak.
Speaker 1: You know that they're more blocked from themselves than they
Speaker 1: were before because they have so much they haven't metabolized.
Speaker 1: And then, you know, I ran a drug and alcohol
Speaker 1: Recovery Center, but used altered state induction through the Drumming
Speaker 1: journey to help people realize that you can still access
Speaker 1: altered states without drugs and that there's a lot of
Speaker 1: integration work to be done. So as we're all saying,
Speaker 1: we're not at all against the amazing and wonderful effects
Speaker 1: of psychedelics and these plant medicines that have been given
Speaker 1: to us. It's an extremely valuable thing that humans have.
Speaker 1: But in Western culture we do tend to grasp after,
Speaker 1: you know, these quick fixes. And for example, living in
Speaker 1: Japan for several years, they were amazed at how someone
Speaker 1: would come to Japan and study Aikdo for three weeks
Speaker 1: and then go back to the United States and say
Speaker 1: they're an Aikdo teacher.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of similar to that, right, like wanting
Speaker 1: to despond to something and not taking the time to
Speaker 1: really learn it yourself and in yourself.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about drumming for a minute. This is another
Speaker 2: important part of the book once and tell me a
Speaker 2: little bit about how you go about working with it.
Speaker 2: Does the individual identify a shadow and then use drumming
Speaker 2: as a way to release it or identify in a
Speaker 2: better manner so that it's more tactile or what. How
Speaker 2: does the drumming work to integrate the healing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's perhaps not what people think when they first
Speaker 1: hear it, because it's not that you're just sitting there
Speaker 1: and everyone's drumming, or that you're in a drumming vibe.
Speaker 1: Although that's a wonderful thing to do.
Speaker 2: I've done a few drumming circles. They're kind of cool, you.
Speaker 1: Know, very cool because you do go into a wonderful
Speaker 1: stage being this with each other in the drumming. But no,
Speaker 1: this is the person receiving the journey lays down and
Speaker 1: is instructed about a pathway, how to take the pathway
Speaker 1: into the deep unconscious, and the guide person is doing
Speaker 1: the drumming, and it's a certain style of drumming that
Speaker 1: has to be at a certain rate that takes the
Speaker 1: person's consciousness into this deep zone. So you're instructed in
Speaker 1: a certain way, which I can just say what that
Speaker 1: is briefly, you know, but you have to go into
Speaker 1: a portal that's actually a place that exists in ordinary
Speaker 1: reality that you've been, that you're very familiar with, that's
Speaker 1: a place in nature that is a portal for you
Speaker 1: into the underworld, so you don't just pop into altered
Speaker 1: states from anywhere, which is a big mistake that people make.
Speaker 1: They don't know where they've gone from and where they're
Speaker 1: coming back to. So that portal anchor in nature is
Speaker 1: really important. And then you're instructed to put your mind
Speaker 1: to work digging down from there, digging for perhaps a
Speaker 1: long time before you learn how to get there. But
Speaker 1: in that digging process, you're learning how to train your mind,
Speaker 1: so you're training your mind into cooperating with getting there.
Speaker 1: And then you arrive in an underworld place which you're
Speaker 1: not supposed to go around exploring it by yourself. You
Speaker 1: just wait there and the first thing that you do
Speaker 1: is call out to a being to come and meet you,
Speaker 1: the power animal, because they are your guide in the
Speaker 1: underworld zone. You're not alone there, and you're not supposed
Speaker 1: to be alone. You're not supposed to go around on
Speaker 1: your own. You're supposed to learn how to follow after power.
Speaker 1: The power and that being is real. It's not just
Speaker 1: this wou woo you know thing that the modern culture
Speaker 1: has come up with. Now. It's an ancient truth and
Speaker 1: cultures all over the world that the animals are there
Speaker 1: to guide us. Even Rudolph Steiner said, the animals are
Speaker 1: a little lower than the angels, and they're here to
Speaker 1: help us.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So you form this relationship that's a real relationship of
Speaker 1: intimacy with this being, and we call it the I
Speaker 1: Thou relationship ship is Martin Bueber talked about that, I'm
Speaker 1: with someone in our consciousness and then you explore your
Speaker 1: inner terrain and there are many places to explore and
Speaker 1: experiences to have that train you step by step by
Speaker 1: step in how to navigate. So I've watched people, you know,
Speaker 1: thousands of people go on these exact steps, and even
Speaker 1: if I don't tell them, I don't tell them the
Speaker 1: step ahead of time, and spirit guides them to the
Speaker 1: next step and the next step. So there's like a
Speaker 1: whole school system within the deep unconscious and the dream
Speaker 1: time that you're taken in to be trained in how
Speaker 1: to navigate by being guided by the power animal.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I didn't even ask you, guys, do you work
Speaker 2: together as counselors when you see people or having you
Speaker 2: like a team approach? How do you guys work?
Speaker 3: It's really fun nowadays to be on this ship pathway
Speaker 3: together you know, I have my whole other career of
Speaker 3: being a filmmaker and an emerging technologist, but now being
Speaker 3: able to again bring this lineage forth. The way that
Speaker 3: we're working together is by co teaching together. And my
Speaker 3: mom is a therapist as you're hearing, so she has
Speaker 3: her clients too that she works with in the profound
Speaker 3: system of the journey to completion. But then together we've
Speaker 3: been doing more retreats and co teaching what we're and
Speaker 3: gather these two modalities of the drumming journeys, the shadow
Speaker 3: work and then the lucid dreaming and dream time work.
Speaker 3: And it's really beautiful. And as my mom was talking,
Speaker 3: I was thinking about how really being raised doing drumming
Speaker 3: journeys from a young age to be able to have
Speaker 3: to take off in the skill of lucid dreaming very
Speaker 3: quickly because I was encouraged in my dream time. I
Speaker 3: always shared my dreams with my mom and she would,
Speaker 3: you know, beautifully work with them with me. And also,
Speaker 3: the drumming journey and the state that you're going into
Speaker 3: is similar to the journey you take if you're taking
Speaker 3: your waking consciousness and bringing it directly through into a
Speaker 3: lucid dream which is a bit of a more advanced technique,
Speaker 3: but it's training you in this pathway like you're hearing
Speaker 3: about of how to maintain lucidity, meaning how to maintain
Speaker 3: awareness as you enter into the dream time or a
Speaker 3: non ordinary state of consciousness. And so then once you
Speaker 3: start doing the practices of lucid dreaming, which are waking
Speaker 3: reality practices, there are things you do while you're awake
Speaker 3: to constantly be questioning what phase of awareness am I in?
Speaker 3: Am I actually awake? Or am I dreaming? And when
Speaker 3: you do that during the day again, you're creating these
Speaker 3: neural pathways that are constantly questioning could I be dreaming?
Speaker 3: Which is a big thing that we don't do. It's
Speaker 3: like biologically we don't do it because part of our
Speaker 3: prefrontal cortex is turned off where when we're in rem sleep.
Speaker 3: And so by being able to question that, what you're
Speaker 3: doing is you're training your mind to turn that part
Speaker 3: of your brain back on while in rem sleep. And
Speaker 3: once you do that, that's when you switch into a
Speaker 3: lucid dream, which is what a lot of scientists recently
Speaker 3: have studied what's actually happening in your brain when you
Speaker 3: switch into the lucid state. So by like you're hearing,
Speaker 3: By constantly questioning and working with these daytime practices, you
Speaker 3: are training in the skill of lucidity and to question
Speaker 3: when you're in a dream, could I be dreaming? And
Speaker 3: when you do that, that's when I call it the
Speaker 3: light switch of lucidity flips on and you have that
Speaker 3: aha moment of realizing I'm dreaming within the dream, which
Speaker 3: is the definition of a lucid dream, when you realize
Speaker 3: beyond doubt that you're dreaming while still immersed in the dream.
Speaker 2: I think it was you that mentioned that you had
Speaker 2: studied the work of Stephen Leberge, who I knew personally
Speaker 2: here and is a stanform and I used to be
Speaker 2: the program director for Whole Life Exponent. He spoke regularly,
Speaker 2: and when he was talking about lucid dreaming, it was like,
Speaker 2: I want to do that. I want to do that,
Speaker 2: but it takes work. It takes consistent dreaming, and I
Speaker 2: just don't have consistent dreaming. But it's important to consider
Speaker 2: lucid dreaming for real healing, isn't it.
Speaker 3: It is because you are really able to go into
Speaker 3: your unconscious, into your deep inner worlds. And bring this
Speaker 3: lucidity where then you're able to do things that you
Speaker 3: couldn't otherwise, because once you have that realization that you're
Speaker 3: dreaming within the dream, you have this level of agency
Speaker 3: that turns on because you're like, oh, this is a dream,
Speaker 3: so I could And then having a clear intention of
Speaker 3: what you want to do once you become lucid, So
Speaker 3: say you're wanting to do more psychological work within yourself
Speaker 3: and have a dialogue with your inner child, you can
Speaker 3: have the intention before you go to sleep. I'd like
Speaker 3: to become lucid tonight, and when I do, I'd like
Speaker 3: to call upon, summon my inner child to talk through
Speaker 3: this issue that I'm having, or this trauma that I
Speaker 3: had in my childhood. And whereas with active imagination or
Speaker 3: guided visualization it can be powerful to do something similar,
Speaker 3: but then to dream, it's as real as waking reality.
Speaker 3: It really like your sensorial factors turn fully on. You
Speaker 3: feel like you're their taste touch, You can fly through
Speaker 3: the air and feel the wind rushing through your hair.
Speaker 3: So as you can imagine, it's not like you're just
Speaker 3: imagining that you're talking to your inner child. You're actually there,
Speaker 3: present with them. And having this dialogue. And that's just
Speaker 3: one example of what you can do once you become
Speaker 3: lucid for your deeper psychological work and spiritual work.
Speaker 1: You can hear the different state of kind consciousness than
Speaker 1: just talk therapy. You're going into the state of consciousness
Speaker 1: where things are coming at you. You're interrelating in a
Speaker 1: way that's different than just thinking about it. So that's
Speaker 1: what we're trying to get across about lucidity and being
Speaker 1: in these realms of energy. You're actually in the moment
Speaker 1: interrelating with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had people on the program talking about dreaming.
Speaker 2: I'm one of these people that just doesn't remember my
Speaker 2: dreams simply because probably either too exhausted or I've had
Speaker 2: so many scary dreams of my brain shuts down. But
Speaker 2: you do present an important aspect of your writing, which
Speaker 2: is to bring dreams in as a form of therapy.
Speaker 2: And how do how does that work?
Speaker 1: Normal?
Speaker 2: How does that work where we're I guess we want
Speaker 2: to intend before we begin, right, intend on having a
Speaker 2: dream that's healing or brings us information we need and
Speaker 2: so forth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a big part of the therapy work because
Speaker 1: I have people we do a ritual I went through
Speaker 1: with the Wheechole about committing to enter into the dream time.
Speaker 1: So that means that you're being willing to begin to
Speaker 1: really pay attention to your dreams. And if you don't
Speaker 1: remember them, there are techniques that we can give you
Speaker 1: to help you remember them, because everybody is dreaming. It's
Speaker 1: been scientifically proven that everybody is dreaming at night, and
Speaker 1: there are ways to remember your dreams better, like, for example,
Speaker 1: just lay there when you first wake up and don't
Speaker 1: move your head at all, because it's like an etchy sketch.
Speaker 1: It erases the dream if you move your head, so
Speaker 1: things like that, just you know, be very still when
Speaker 1: you first wake up, and then try to record your dreams,
Speaker 1: even if it's just one little tiny piece that you remember,
Speaker 1: write it down and that shows your dream time that
Speaker 1: you're willing to receive, and it starts to open up
Speaker 1: rather quickly after that. So yes, remembering your dreams is
Speaker 1: key to it, and we can help you to be
Speaker 1: able to do that. And then the dreams start really
Speaker 1: wanting to communicate information to you. So I call that
Speaker 1: getting to the point where you're syncing up with your
Speaker 1: dream time and ordinary reality. The dreams start presenting you
Speaker 1: things that you've got to know about your ordinary reality,
Speaker 1: and so we do a whole you know, integration learning
Speaker 1: process between the dreams and ordinary reality in therapy. How
Speaker 1: could we leave out our dreams? You know, it's such
Speaker 1: a huge part of what we have access to and
Speaker 1: our birthright to be able to pay attention to them.
Speaker 3: And one thing I want to add to that too
Speaker 3: is that as you're working with your dreams, you're learning
Speaker 3: your personal dream symbolism and your dream signs. And a
Speaker 3: lot of times again we can get in our Western
Speaker 3: culture the way we're oriented to externalizing authority, and so
Speaker 3: we'll look to like dream dictionaries or different people to
Speaker 3: interpret our dreams for us, and that could be helpful,
Speaker 3: but really the work that we're doing with people is
Speaker 3: teaching them how to track their dreams, how to learn
Speaker 3: and map what their dreams are telling them, and then
Speaker 3: really being able to interpret them for themselves and look
Speaker 3: at their dreams through these different frameworks and modalities so
Speaker 3: that then they can make meaning of what the dream
Speaker 3: was presenting and what they're dealing with in their waking reality.
Speaker 3: And it's really powerful because you can take a dream
Speaker 3: that seems quite simple on the surface, or like, oh
Speaker 3: that was, you know, just a weird, mundane dream, and
Speaker 3: a lot of people will disregard those dreams, will be like,
Speaker 3: I don't even really want to write that down because
Speaker 3: that was nothing. But then as you start to pull
Speaker 3: the threads of it and you start to see, oh, well,
Speaker 3: in that dream, I was driving my car and it
Speaker 3: was kind of out of control, and hey, that's something
Speaker 3: that actually happens in my dreams often. And what is
Speaker 3: happening in my life when I'm driving this car, which
Speaker 3: can you know, symbolize your autonomy or your mobility, or
Speaker 3: your your ability to move in the world. And then
Speaker 3: it's malfunctioning. Okay, what's that relating to? So you can
Speaker 3: see that's just a small taste of how you start
Speaker 3: working with the symbolism that your dreams are speaking to
Speaker 3: you in and then understanding what they're revealing to you.
Speaker 3: And one other thing I'll just note too, is that
Speaker 3: it's amazing but a lot of times dreams are very precognitive,
Speaker 3: and if you don't write them down, you miss that.
Speaker 3: But so many times I've had dreams where, again it
Speaker 3: seemed like a very mundane one and I was like, ugh,
Speaker 3: do I even need to write this down? But then
Speaker 3: I did, And then the next day, or the next
Speaker 3: week or the next month, I was dealing with the
Speaker 3: exact issue that was appearing in my dream, or a
Speaker 3: symbol from my dream then appeared in ordinary reality in
Speaker 3: this way that I could have never expected. So our
Speaker 3: dreams are constantly communicating to us and transmitting this deep
Speaker 3: amount of knowledge that we don't have access to in
Speaker 3: our waking consciousness.
Speaker 2: I like that. We're going to take a short commercial
Speaker 2: break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we
Speaker 2: will return with authors Norma and Nisha Burton discussing their
Speaker 2: newly released book Navigating Liminal Realms. Will rejoin you shortly.
Speaker 2: Norma and Niche's new book on Navigating Liminal Realms is
Speaker 2: an excellent opportunity to work with indigenous shamantic techniques for
Speaker 2: releasing trauma without using plant medicine. Some people believe that
Speaker 2: dreams are our higher self or the soul. It's this
Speaker 2: only chance or a soul gets a chance to communicate
Speaker 2: with us. What do you think of that? Is that
Speaker 2: something you consider?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely well, when you think about what is our soul?
Speaker 1: You know it's like the wonderful about care of the soul.
Speaker 1: You know, we need to pay attention to these souls
Speaker 1: ish things that it may be uncomfortable, because the soul
Speaker 1: is drawing us to the depths, you know, to be
Speaker 1: with the things that are difficult that happen, so that
Speaker 1: we can really feel into what they're all about, which
Speaker 1: is what you can hear and what Niche is saying.
Speaker 1: We tend to want to just get away from the
Speaker 1: difficult things and have you know, easier time, but the
Speaker 1: difficult things are there to help us heal and integrate us.
Speaker 1: So Nishe, you were talking about dream signs, you know,
Speaker 1: and there's so many tools that we through studying Stephen
Speaker 1: Leburgh and others and our own dreams, tools that you
Speaker 1: can grow gradually, step by step in working with your dreams.
Speaker 1: And we wrote a previous book that's called Lucid Dreaming
Speaker 1: Lucid Living and oh yeah, Yisha created a whole wonderful
Speaker 1: oracle deck that it's a book and this oracle deck
Speaker 1: of images that are a systematic approach to learning how
Speaker 1: to lucid dream. So we just draw people's attention to
Speaker 1: that this will manual for how to learn to lucid dream.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's a fun nonlinear way to learn it,
Speaker 3: because that's something as I was starting to teach people
Speaker 3: about lucid dreaming, they would say, oh, yeah, I got
Speaker 3: really into it for a couple of weeks and I
Speaker 3: read this book, but then I just fell off the
Speaker 3: practice of doing what I needed to do to have
Speaker 3: regular and sustained lucid dreams. And that can be very
Speaker 3: common where it's exciting at first, but then life can
Speaker 3: take your focus other places. So by being able to
Speaker 3: just pull a card each day and have one lesson
Speaker 3: delivered to you, it's a really fun nonlinear way to
Speaker 3: learn lucid dreaming and to continue your lucid dreaming practice.
Speaker 3: And as you can hear, it is a skill like
Speaker 3: anything else. Some people also think, oh, I can't lucid
Speaker 3: dream because I never have before, and some people are
Speaker 3: just naturally gifted in it and I'm not. But really,
Speaker 3: I believe that anybody can learn to lucid dream if
Speaker 3: they take on the daytime practices of questioning if you
Speaker 3: could be dreaming, and then tracking your dream signs, which
Speaker 3: are things that regularly occur or appear in your dreams. Objects,
Speaker 3: people experiences like being by a large body of water,
Speaker 3: or being in an elevator or traveling on a plane.
Speaker 3: These are things that are very common that a lot
Speaker 3: of people have in their dream time and also experience
Speaker 3: an ordinary reality. And then what you do with those
Speaker 3: dream signs is anytime you notice one while you're in
Speaker 3: waking reality, you ask the question could I be dreaming?
Speaker 3: And when you do that, you perform This is the
Speaker 3: third part, which is a really key element to having
Speaker 3: a lucid dream, is you perform what's called a state
Speaker 3: check or a reality check, where you do an action
Speaker 3: to verify if you could be dreaming or not. So
Speaker 3: one a lot of people know is looking at your
Speaker 3: hands and flipping them back and forth. And if you
Speaker 3: do that in waking reality, they'll stay your hands as
Speaker 3: you're used to seeing. If do it in a dream,
Speaker 3: what will happen is you'll grow an extra finger, or
Speaker 3: they'll glow a different color, or they'll change into something
Speaker 3: else entirely. And then, because that's so different than waking reality,
Speaker 3: you then know, beyond a doubt that you are dreaming,
Speaker 3: and that's when you can fully flip into lucidity. So
Speaker 3: you hear how there's these fundamental things that you do
Speaker 3: during the day. You're performing state checks regularly throughout the
Speaker 3: day and questioning could I be dreaming? And that's again
Speaker 3: training your mind to do that same action in the dream,
Speaker 3: because whatever we do while we're awake regularly comes into
Speaker 3: our dream time. So that's the pathway that you're creating.
Speaker 2: Are you suggesting that where someone is doing a normal
Speaker 2: type of dream, that you can click into to lucid
Speaker 2: lucidity within the dream exactly?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's hard.
Speaker 2: You're looking at the hands, and then are you asking
Speaker 2: or is the subconscious or the higher self saying, Okay,
Speaker 2: she's this far, We're going to click into another realm.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let me give an example of a lucid dream
Speaker 3: that I had, because that can sometimes help to ground
Speaker 3: the concept. So I one of my dream signs that happens,
Speaker 3: It's kind of funny, is that oftentimes in my dreams
Speaker 3: I'll be going into a public bathroom and it'll be
Speaker 3: really gross, and that to deal with that, I'm like,
Speaker 3: I don't like this. So this is something that regularly
Speaker 3: happens in my dreams, and I go to public restrooms
Speaker 3: all the time in waking reality. So that's a really
Speaker 3: good dream sign because it's both present often in your
Speaker 3: dreams and in waking reality. So I was getting up
Speaker 3: from bed at night, and I thought I was awake
Speaker 3: and walked into the bathroom, and because I had trained myself,
Speaker 3: every time I go into a bathroom, I perform a
Speaker 3: state check. Even though in this state, I was sure
Speaker 3: I wasn't dreaming, I was like, no, I'm just going
Speaker 3: to the bathroom. This is what I do in the
Speaker 3: middle of the night. I stopped and I said, okay,
Speaker 3: but could I be dreaming? And I looked around and
Speaker 3: it seemed so normal. It seemed just like my regular
Speaker 3: waking life bathroom. But because again I've been practicing, okay,
Speaker 3: but I always do a state check, I always do
Speaker 3: a state check, I flipped my hands back and forth,
Speaker 3: and sure enough I had an extra finger. And so
Speaker 3: then I said, aha, okay, my god, I mean, oh
Speaker 3: my god, I can't believe this is a dream, but
Speaker 3: it is. And then from there, because I was lucid,
Speaker 3: I was able to then decide, Okay, now I'm going
Speaker 3: to fly up out of my bathroom into the cosmos,
Speaker 3: and I'm going to go have this experience with my
Speaker 3: higher self and ask them these questions that I had
Speaker 3: intended to ask when I became lucid. So that's an
Speaker 3: example of how when you're constantly doing the state checks
Speaker 3: in waking reality, then even though in a dream it
Speaker 3: might seem like, oh, this isn't a dream, by doing
Speaker 3: that action, you can verify wait a minute, this actually
Speaker 3: is a dream and flip into lucidity.
Speaker 2: Amazing is it's.
Speaker 1: Hard to wake up, you know, like that we're talking
Speaker 1: about waking up and being aware, and so many things
Speaker 1: are happening in our culture to deaden us and to
Speaker 1: keep us from waking up. So it's kind of an
Speaker 1: effort to wake up, and that's what Niche is talking about,
Speaker 1: taking it on as a practice. But we can, and
Speaker 1: we need to write, especially nowadays with all the crises
Speaker 1: that we're facing, we need to wake up so that
Speaker 1: we have as much lucid agency available to us individ
Speaker 1: rellectively fantastic.
Speaker 2: The books called Navigating Liminal Realms. My guests have been
Speaker 2: Norma Initia Burden, who is this book for? Who would
Speaker 2: you suggest We haven't even talked about people who are
Speaker 2: in crises, people who have an inkling that they're just
Speaker 2: not feeling right and they don't know what's going on,
Speaker 2: but they're not physically ill. Something else is going on.
Speaker 2: Who is the book for.
Speaker 1: Books for anybody who wants to explore their inner self
Speaker 1: and heal anybody. It's written in an accessible way. I
Speaker 1: think people of any age or level of psychological insight
Speaker 1: can read it and understand it and value it. But
Speaker 1: we also hoped that it would be used by people
Speaker 1: wanting to be psychedelic facilitators or go into a psychedelic experience,
Speaker 1: because it's a good training, a precursor training for people
Speaker 1: who want to experience psychedelics. What do you say about it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, my mom and
Speaker 3: I are very much in the space of the psychedelic
Speaker 3: renaissance as they're calling it, and so many people recently
Speaker 3: as they've seen this book have talked about how it
Speaker 3: is a missing link of what's out they're in the
Speaker 3: training around how to properly facilitate psychedelics, And really, what
Speaker 3: you need to know first is how to work with
Speaker 3: your own self, but your own psyche, your own inner realms,
Speaker 3: before you then assume that you can lead somebody else
Speaker 3: in that experience. So really it is a training ground
Speaker 3: in that way, but also for people who are not
Speaker 3: interested in using psychedelics, it's a pathway to enter altered
Speaker 3: states of consciousness like we've been talking about all along,
Speaker 3: without the use of psychedelics and showing people that you
Speaker 3: have a birthright you have access to these non ordinary
Speaker 3: states of consciousness right within yourself. And I think that's
Speaker 3: really empowering to realize that. And so anybody that's interested
Speaker 3: in wanting to seek this deeper guidance within themselves and
Speaker 3: experience what it's like to step beyond this waking, mundane reality,
Speaker 3: really this book is for them too.
Speaker 2: Do you think there are and are an Oregon? And
Speaker 2: I had to mention to our listeners that organ has
Speaker 2: passed laws that allow for therapeutic psychedelics. I forget what
Speaker 2: type of so cybon primarily, right, Yeah, And that's that's
Speaker 2: pretty that's an amazing But are there some people that
Speaker 2: are that don't need to go to the psychedelic realm,
Speaker 2: that can get the basic program without having to do
Speaker 2: the what I call the tripping.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what the book is saying, that anybody can
Speaker 1: have very lucid and important experiences without psychedelics. So we're
Speaker 1: trying to promote people getting in touch with capabilities that
Speaker 1: we have in our own psyche and that we're much
Speaker 1: vaster than we realized. You know, we only use such
Speaker 1: a small percentage of our brain capacity. So yes, you
Speaker 1: don't need to take psychedelics, and there are these things
Speaker 1: that we want people to explore within their own capacities.
Speaker 3: And what I'd add to that too is, yeah, many people,
Speaker 3: you know, like psychedelics do provide a very heightened experience,
Speaker 3: But when you do lucid dreaming or the drumming journeys,
Speaker 3: what's beautiful about it is that it's coming in your
Speaker 3: own inner pacing and you are working with your inner
Speaker 3: journey and so a lot of times it can unfold
Speaker 3: in a way that's a lot more comfortable for people
Speaker 3: and really provides this deep level of meaning making that
Speaker 3: I think is what people are also seeking when they
Speaker 3: do psychedelics, is they're wanting to make meaning out of
Speaker 3: what is happening in their lives. They're wanting to understand
Speaker 3: why do you have these habitual patterns or ruts that
Speaker 3: they can't get out of. And by accessing these realms
Speaker 3: within yourself and at a pace that's appropriate for how
Speaker 3: you're naturally unfolding. Then you really do have this beautiful
Speaker 3: integration that happens constantly and that unfolds within you. So yeah,
Speaker 3: somebody is not interested in doing psychedelics, but we all,
Speaker 3: like my mom said earlier, want access to non ordinary reality.
Speaker 3: It's a part of who we are as humans. Every
Speaker 3: night we're going to sleep, That's like a essential part
Speaker 3: of being alive, right, what's built into our very code
Speaker 3: of our bodies, and so it's important and being able
Speaker 3: to know how to access those realms of lucidity is
Speaker 3: incredibly valuable. And a lot of times when people start
Speaker 3: lucid dreaming or having drumming journeys orre like, oh, actually
Speaker 3: what I thought I was seeking over here in the
Speaker 3: psychedelics is actually this, This is what I was seeking
Speaker 3: to be experience this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: are just disconnected and what you guys are present is
Speaker 2: a way to connect with nature, connect with earth, Gaia,
Speaker 2: and I love what you're presenting, and I think a
Speaker 2: nice way to begin considering the healing work. You know,
Speaker 2: and rather than all these technical terms that psychoanalysis presents
Speaker 2: to us, it's like, what the hell's they're talking about
Speaker 2: I mean, I just want to be healed. You know,
Speaker 2: you're presenting it in a much more palatable way. So hey,
Speaker 2: thank you both for joining me. The book just came out.
Speaker 2: How can people get a hold of you? What's your
Speaker 2: website and talk about some of your seminars.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, so, we have a whole mystery school launching right
Speaker 3: now around the dream time psycho Navigation, and our website
Speaker 3: is Lucid Dreaming Lucid Living dot com and that has
Speaker 3: everything there. It has links to both of our books
Speaker 3: as well as we're launching several online courses that were
Speaker 3: really excited about around Lucid Dreaming, the drumming journeys and
Speaker 3: the shadow work that my mom does, the journey to Completion.
Speaker 3: And so within this month, the first course is going
Speaker 3: to be launched, and then many more will be rolling
Speaker 3: out over the fall. And there's a space on our
Speaker 3: website to sign up for the newsletter to find out
Speaker 3: when those are live. But we also have a free
Speaker 3: course on the website right now that is about sleep
Speaker 3: hygiene and starting to work with your dreams so you
Speaker 3: can remember your dreams, which is a huge part of
Speaker 3: what a lot.
Speaker 2: Of people say sleep hygiene. Yeah, Yeah, isn't that What
Speaker 2: does that mean? It means you're no alcohol or drugs
Speaker 2: before you go to sleep.
Speaker 3: That's good, that's good sleep hygiene. Yeah, it's all.
Speaker 2: About I don't know. I'm joking, I don't know what
Speaker 2: you were.
Speaker 3: I think that is part of it, being aware of
Speaker 3: what conditions you were entering the dream time in and
Speaker 3: what the space that you're carving out before you go
Speaker 3: to sleep is. And then also there's another part of
Speaker 3: that course that's in the morning, a morning routine that
Speaker 3: helps you to remember and capture your dreams. And that's
Speaker 3: kind of the beginning of all of this stream work
Speaker 3: is those two pieces and working with those so that
Speaker 3: you can start to connect to your dream time. And
Speaker 3: then briefly, we also have an Instagram that's the same thing,
Speaker 3: Lucid Dreaming Lucid Living. That's our handle where we post
Speaker 3: bite sized content around all of these things, and a
Speaker 3: YouTube channel that is the same name, Lucid Dreaming Lucidliving
Speaker 3: dot com. And then for my mom's work, the Journey
Speaker 3: to Completion, her website is Norman Burton dot com. And
Speaker 3: we love hearing from people, hearing questions, things that they're
Speaker 3: running into challenges, So you can contact us just through
Speaker 3: our website and we will love to get back to you.
Speaker 2: I'd love to see a dreaming circle where you guys
Speaker 2: were online on zoom and everybody had their drum, you know,
Speaker 2: like one hundred photographs of everybody was a little drums.
Speaker 2: So cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're really building out community right now, which feels
Speaker 3: very exciting and powerful to have this community of dreamers
Speaker 3: of psycho navigators that can talk with one another about
Speaker 3: these things, because I think that's another thing everyone is
Speaker 3: really craving in these times.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you guys have a compelling message message.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate your work. All right, hey, continue success
Speaker 2: and thanks for joining me.
Speaker 1: They really appreciate your questions. Great to talk with you.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: The book contains chapters on a wide variety of the
Speaker 2: topics that we presented today, but it also has case
Speaker 2: studies of people who are using these techniques and getting
Speaker 2: profound results. The very last part of the book is
Speaker 2: integrating plant medicine like psilocybin or ayahuasca or you know,
Speaker 2: even cannabis. There's a number of types of cannabis now
Speaker 2: that are very very strong and can duplicate a psychedelic experience.
Speaker 2: But as I've met many times, it's not necessary. And
Speaker 2: this is a great example. This book Navigating Liminal Realms
Speaker 2: is a great example of working in an indigenous fashion.
Speaker 2: And I think that we're forgetting that the indigenous people,
Speaker 2: the people who are listening to Gaya, the planet, the Earth,
Speaker 2: use plant medicines very sparingly, very sparingly. And if you
Speaker 2: actually read the book, normally provides an example of working
Speaker 2: with a shamanic group and after two years then they
Speaker 2: introduced some mushrooms to kind of conclude a stage of growth.
Speaker 2: But it's not used every week every month as a
Speaker 2: form of therapeutic approach. And I think again, and I
Speaker 2: think we're you know, taking it, the use of plant
Speaker 2: medicines out of context and try to speed up the
Speaker 2: results when the body very likely needs to have time
Speaker 2: to adjust to absorb the healing wisdom of the plant medicine.
Speaker 2: And then you process it, you probably go through you
Speaker 2: go through stages of awareness following the use of it.
Speaker 2: So and this is great, This is the kind of
Speaker 2: thing I'm looking for. If you're like me, you're not
Speaker 2: jumping into working with plant medicines, right away, And I've
Speaker 2: mentioned this many times. I don't know if I'll ever
Speaker 2: use ayahuasca. I don't know if I mean, I don't
Speaker 2: have a great appeal. I think for me it's going
Speaker 2: to be more like doing DMT, but microdosing so that
Speaker 2: I'm I'm not traveling in space untethered. Anyhow, I hope
Speaker 2: you enjoyed that. Again. The book is Navigating Liminal Realms,
Speaker 2: Psycho Navigating Skills for Lucid Dreaming, Trance Journey and Altered States.
Speaker 2: And the guests and the authors are Norma and Nisha
Speaker 2: n I s h A. Burton. If you're enjoying Earth
Speaker 2: Ancients Destiny and Earth Ancients Special Edition the Archives, please
Speaker 2: consider it becoming a subscriber For as little as five
Speaker 2: dollars a month, you can support the work we do
Speaker 2: here on these podcasts, and it's really appreciated. To become
Speaker 2: a subscriber. Go to Patreon dot com, forward slash Earth
Speaker 2: Ancients and subscribe. We have a ton of really cool
Speaker 2: gifts for you, including a complete digital library that you
Speaker 2: can look through and download at your leisure. We have
Speaker 2: some unpublished interviews as well as some photo galleries, and
Speaker 2: it's always great to check in with you as a
Speaker 2: subscriber again. To become a subscriber, go to Patreon dot com,
Speaker 2: Forward Slash Earth Ancients. All right, that's it for this program.
Speaker 2: I want to think my guests, Norma A, Nisha Burton
Speaker 2: coming to us from Oregon. As always, the team of
Speaker 2: Guil tour, Mark Foster and Faisal Parvet. You guys rock
Speaker 2: all right, take care of you well and we will
Speaker 2: talk to you next time.