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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Destiny. Now here's your host, Cliff Dunning.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, hello, how are you? How are you doing? This

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<v Speaker 2>is Cliff, your host of Destiny, and I do hope

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<v Speaker 2>you're doing well. Today we have a I think an

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<v Speaker 2>important program today. It has to do with vision questing,

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<v Speaker 2>working with trauma, and working with shamanic techniques that release

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<v Speaker 2>trauma in a more natural sense of the term. And

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<v Speaker 2>when I say that, we have had we've had people

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<v Speaker 2>on the program talking about working with psychedelics. That's another

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<v Speaker 2>word for plant medicine. And when we look at the

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<v Speaker 2>indigenous use of plant medicines, and we'll learn more about

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<v Speaker 2>this today, that they were typically not introduced until other

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<v Speaker 2>types of vision quester journeying was completed. And one of

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<v Speaker 2>the areas that I have learned and known about for

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<v Speaker 2>years and participated in is drumming drum circles, because what

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<v Speaker 2>happens when you are in a drum circle or you're

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<v Speaker 2>focusing on your own drumming, you go into an altered state.

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<v Speaker 2>And in those altered states, you can begin working with

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<v Speaker 2>what they call the shadow, bringing out the shadow, working

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<v Speaker 2>with traumatic incidents, working with ancestral trauma, which is a

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<v Speaker 2>big theme right now, and I think, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>a big advocate of psychedelics, although we've had people on

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<v Speaker 2>the program talking about ayahuasca, dmt LSD, even in microdoses,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the favorite focus for a lot of people,

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<v Speaker 2>younger people, I guess, but it's not necessarily the way

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<v Speaker 2>for a lot of people, including myself. And today we're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna hear from two people that I would consider shamans

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<v Speaker 2>in their own right. In fact, one of my guests

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<v Speaker 2>actually has worked with Shamantic tribes or native tribes in

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<v Speaker 2>the United States. And again, they don't really advocate using

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<v Speaker 2>plant medicines until after a period of time. In fact,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes it's a couple of years to do journeying work

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<v Speaker 2>with so you know, it might be the quick need

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<v Speaker 2>for or the need for quick gratification that a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of us in the western side of the world are

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<v Speaker 2>interested in. And I have friends that are using, you know, ayahuasca.

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<v Speaker 2>They talk about their journey. What if I were using

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<v Speaker 2>plant medicines too soon? What if we're advocating the use

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<v Speaker 2>of this rather than doing the homework. And I have

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<v Speaker 2>been wondering about this for a while, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>why we have our guests today to talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>importance of using a system of therapeutic approaches from a

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<v Speaker 2>shamanistic indigenous point of view, and then opening to a

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<v Speaker 2>plant medicine journey using mushroom, psilocybin, ayahuasca or DMT. The

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<v Speaker 2>thought of using ayahuasca is one of that you really

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<v Speaker 2>have to prepare for. And you know, when we have

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<v Speaker 2>Graham Hancock on the program, he's done. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>seventy different journeys with ayahuasca. In some cases he's gone

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<v Speaker 2>all the way down to Peru, and he actually talks

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<v Speaker 2>about a couple of different elders, shamatic elders that he

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<v Speaker 2>is he has used for his journeying. But everybody is different,

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<v Speaker 2>everybody is in a different process. If you are new

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<v Speaker 2>to the consideration of using plant medicines, I think this

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<v Speaker 2>will be a good program for you today because the

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<v Speaker 2>approach is a little bit different. And again, according to

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<v Speaker 2>my guest today, indigenous cultures did not introduce plant medicines

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<v Speaker 2>until a good deal of prep work was done identifying

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<v Speaker 2>the problem areas working with drumming, working with dreaming. We're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna talk about lucid dreaming. We haven't talked a great

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<v Speaker 2>deal recently about lucid dreaming, which is a very, very

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<v Speaker 2>powerful aspect of dreaming. But actually you have to get

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<v Speaker 2>into the repetition of remember your your dreams, having regular

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<v Speaker 2>dreams before you go to bed, closing your eyes, and

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<v Speaker 2>having an intention to have a good, solid dream on

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<v Speaker 2>a topic. I want to dream that defines the relationship

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<v Speaker 2>that I currently have. I want to dream that helps

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<v Speaker 2>me understand my work situation. I want to dream about

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this work that I am doing, and so

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<v Speaker 2>forth and so on. So these dreams are a part

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<v Speaker 2>of our consciousness that we don't really I mean, dream work,

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<v Speaker 2>dream journaling is really sacred. And I'm one of these

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<v Speaker 2>people that go to bed and I'm gone, and I

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<v Speaker 2>probably remember my dream I probably have dreams, but I

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<v Speaker 2>just don't wake up. And so I'm the worst person

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<v Speaker 2>right now to be remembering my dreams, promoting my dreams,

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<v Speaker 2>and intending that have good therapeutic dreams. Now, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>remember ever having a lucid dream. But over the years

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<v Speaker 2>I've I've featured people who are experts on lucid dreaming,

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<v Speaker 2>and from the sound from the sound of it, it's

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<v Speaker 2>just in what I've read, it sounds it's just amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like a form of a different reality. It's so real,

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<v Speaker 2>and there's techniques to understand that you are in a

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<v Speaker 2>lucid state of consciousness and lucid dream. So and so

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<v Speaker 2>I think you're gonna enjoy today's program, you know, because

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<v Speaker 2>it is a prep for the potential of using plant

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<v Speaker 2>medicines or in many many cases, the journey, the healing,

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<v Speaker 2>the vision quest that takes place outside of using plant medicines,

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<v Speaker 2>powerful plant medicines, so that you in some cases don't

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<v Speaker 2>even have to worry about using plant medicines. And as

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<v Speaker 2>you'll hear today, there's a lot of our population that

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't need to use psychedelics and other powerful plant medicines

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<v Speaker 2>to induce other states of consciousness. So today's program is

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<v Speaker 2>navigating liminal realms. And my guests are Norma and Nisha Burton,

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<v Speaker 2>mother and daughter authors. This is a great segue into

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<v Speaker 2>our tours. We have a Guatemala tour coming up. It's

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<v Speaker 2>the Sacred Temples of Guatemala, December first, the twelfth. I'll

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<v Speaker 2>tell you what's beautiful about this tour is that we

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<v Speaker 2>will be working with shaman. We will be working with

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<v Speaker 2>people who are sensitive to energy, and we have hands

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<v Speaker 2>on access to climb some of the largest and most

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<v Speaker 2>important pyramids and temples in all of Central America. This

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<v Speaker 2>is a wonderful tour, not only because it is great

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<v Speaker 2>for enhancing your consciousness and also healing trauma, but we'll

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<v Speaker 2>also have a chance to do sessions together. We'll also

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<v Speaker 2>have a chance to be with people who are sensitive

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<v Speaker 2>to energy, who understand the energy that it's emitting from

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<v Speaker 2>these various temples and pyramids. Again, this is not to

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<v Speaker 2>be missed. We have some special additions for you. The

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<v Speaker 2>price is going to be increasing in August, so if

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<v Speaker 2>you can get on board before the last part of

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<v Speaker 2>the month, and also those who sign up between now

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<v Speaker 2>and the first part of November will receive the full program,

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<v Speaker 2>tapes and audios of the Atlantis Summit that just happened

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<v Speaker 2>last month, and you get a bonus program of Lydia

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<v Speaker 2>Di Leong and Arturo Di Leong, Sacred Geometry, Sacred Building

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<v Speaker 2>Mechanisms and Sacred Energy. Finally, those who sign up before

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<v Speaker 2>the end of the month get an Earth Ancient's T

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<v Speaker 2>shirt complete with the latest logo designs that we have

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<v Speaker 2>been working on. The Sacred Pyramid tour of Guatemala December first,

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<v Speaker 2>the twelfth. For all the details and all the information,

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<v Speaker 2>go to earthacients dot com forward slash tours, look for

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<v Speaker 2>the banner, click it and register. I'm always looking for

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<v Speaker 2>interesting books on not only working with psychedelics, but also

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<v Speaker 2>dealing with trauma and dealing with trauma in a way

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<v Speaker 2>where you can identify it, which I think a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of us have a problem with. I admit to that.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll raise my hands with that. Where is my trauma?

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<v Speaker 2>What is my trauma? But moving beyond that into therapeutic

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<v Speaker 2>approaches that are beneficial and not so much painful, And

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<v Speaker 2>I think sometimes people get into situations where they're having

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<v Speaker 2>some problems. My guests today are a mother and daughter team,

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<v Speaker 2>Norma Burton and Nisha Burton, who've written a book called

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<v Speaker 2>Navigating Liminal Realms, and I have to tell you I

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<v Speaker 2>liked it a lot because we're talking about working with

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<v Speaker 2>psychedelics but also identifying trauma through more traditional means. Norma

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<v Speaker 2>is a counselor with a degree in comparative religion, focusing

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<v Speaker 2>on Buddhism or Buddhist and Shamanic traditions. She specializes in

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<v Speaker 2>trauma healing, shadow work, and dream analysis. A Nisha is

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<v Speaker 2>a skilled dream worker and we're going to talk a

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<v Speaker 2>lot about lucid dreaming today as well. Trained in the

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<v Speaker 2>art of journeying and the deep subconscious from a young age.

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<v Speaker 2>So those are great. So, guys, welcome to Destiny. Great

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<v Speaker 2>to have you on the program, Thanks.

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<v Speaker 3>For having us.

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<v Speaker 1>Excited to be here.

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<v Speaker 2>Norma, I want to talk really with you first. One

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<v Speaker 2>of the things I really like about the book is

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of Indigenous background that you have, and you

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<v Speaker 2>kind of carry that through the book as a foundation

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<v Speaker 2>and little bit about how you have been impressed by

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<v Speaker 2>Indigenous therapeutic approaches, how they as a people, as different

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<v Speaker 2>tribes or whatever go about working with trauma.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, first of all, we all have a deep indigeneity,

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<v Speaker 1>which means connection to the earth in our lineages, right,

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<v Speaker 1>but many of the Western lineages have been so cut

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<v Speaker 1>off from our earth based roots. But it's a creation

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<v Speaker 1>centered spirituality, so that means going to nature, to valuing

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<v Speaker 1>being with plants, animals and other consciousnesses that can help

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<v Speaker 1>us and guide us. And we really think and must

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<v Speaker 1>do many things to be thankful for and help indigenous

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<v Speaker 1>peoples on the Earth who have held these traditions alive

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<v Speaker 1>all through the centuries and have gone through a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of suffering to try to do that. So I grew

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<v Speaker 1>up on a Native American reservation where my grandparents were

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<v Speaker 1>adopted into the tribe, and then that created in me

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<v Speaker 1>a deep desire to study with and be with indigenous

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<v Speaker 1>Native people in many places. So I traveled around the

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<v Speaker 1>United States in Mexico and Central America and South America

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<v Speaker 1>through my twenties and thirties and forties to be immersed

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<v Speaker 1>in these cultures and learned from amazing teachers that had

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<v Speaker 1>not lost touch and were the bearers of this information.

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<v Speaker 1>So in regard to what is unique about it beautiful

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<v Speaker 1>about indigenous teachings, like I've just said, being in touch

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<v Speaker 1>with nature, but then also navigating one's inner cosmos, that

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<v Speaker 1>we have a birthright that we must explore our deep unconscious.

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<v Speaker 1>So the first thing that you do in shamanic or

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<v Speaker 1>a ritual that is it's based on nature like this,

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<v Speaker 1>is you dig into the earth, and it also is

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<v Speaker 1>symbolizing digging into your own deep unconscious. So we go

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<v Speaker 1>down and in first, not up and out. And so

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<v Speaker 1>many of the patriarchal oriented religions, whatever we want to

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<v Speaker 1>say about the disconnect from the earth, they teach you

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<v Speaker 1>to go up and out and to flee from what

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<v Speaker 1>they call hell or the darkness or the body, to

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<v Speaker 1>flee from that as if that is evil. But no,

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<v Speaker 1>indigenous teachings will always tell you to go down and

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<v Speaker 1>in into your body, into the earth, into your deep unconscious.

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<v Speaker 1>So stop talking there for a minute. But that's one

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<v Speaker 1>distinctive part about is.

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<v Speaker 2>There something about the actual act of digging that triggers

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<v Speaker 2>the mind? And I'm thinking they're drumming as as somebody

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<v Speaker 2>is doing this digging, because you're there's a portion of

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<v Speaker 2>your book that's very focused on drumming. But is there

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<v Speaker 2>something happened to the person who is beginning this therapeutic

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<v Speaker 2>journey that they're digging and triggering, like releasing trauma or something.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, in the shamanic drumming, you know, the shaman, the

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<v Speaker 1>leader is drumming just a steady beat, and that is

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<v Speaker 1>actually it's been proven scientifically, and we speak about this

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<v Speaker 1>in the book. That's aligning your brain waves with a

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<v Speaker 1>certain energy that's called the earth energy. So it's bringing

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<v Speaker 1>your brain waves down into concentration that enables you to

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<v Speaker 1>be receptive, to be hearing, the feeling, hearing, sensing in

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<v Speaker 1>all ways, the energies of the earth. And so the

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<v Speaker 1>digging process is the ancient method of getting your brain

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<v Speaker 1>to focus, because our brains are so easily distracted and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, monkey mind led in all directions, and so

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<v Speaker 1>the digging is, in this meditative practice, the way to

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<v Speaker 1>get your mind to focus. But it's very symbolic to

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<v Speaker 1>the right of going down into the earth and getting

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<v Speaker 1>your fingernails dirty and getting down in there, but down

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<v Speaker 1>into your own deeper unconscious too.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Nisha, what do you feel about this native tradition

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<v Speaker 2>that your mom is bringing forward. I mean, obviously you're

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<v Speaker 2>living that and you're around that all the time, but

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<v Speaker 2>as a younger person, how do you adapt that information.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's been so wonderful to grow up in the

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<v Speaker 3>way I have, and I really am grateful to my

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<v Speaker 3>mom for raising me in this very multicultural way. From

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<v Speaker 3>the time I was a child, she was leading tours

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<v Speaker 3>to sacred sites around the world and working with indigenous

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<v Speaker 3>teachers and healers and shawmans, and so I joined her

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<v Speaker 3>on all of those trips and I really got to

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<v Speaker 3>see how various cultures approach reality and the dream time

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<v Speaker 3>and ordinary reality, and how it can be so different

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<v Speaker 3>from our Western world where the two are very cut

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<v Speaker 3>off from one another and waking reality is held as

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<v Speaker 3>the pinnacle of what we should all be focused on,

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<v Speaker 3>and the dream time is diminished or disregarded, And so

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<v Speaker 3>traveling and seeing and being immersed in these other cultures

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<v Speaker 3>where the dream time and waking reality are much more

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<v Speaker 3>integrated helped me in my foundational self to value the

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<v Speaker 3>dream time along with my mom's encouragement. And then on

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<v Speaker 3>my dad's side of the family too, we are Native

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<v Speaker 3>American as well as African Americans, and so the indigenity

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<v Speaker 3>and being raised in that in all ways feels very

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<v Speaker 3>powerful because it is and then kind of being a

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<v Speaker 3>bridge person right living in this Western world too and

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<v Speaker 3>being able to have a foot in both worlds, so

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<v Speaker 3>to speak, and understand that there is a craving right now,

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<v Speaker 3>in this current time in our culture for that reconnection

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<v Speaker 3>with the dream time and for the reconnection with these

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<v Speaker 3>non ordinary states of consciousness, which I think is a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of why people are very excited and seeking out

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<v Speaker 3>psychedelics too, is to be able to experience firsthand what

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<v Speaker 3>it's like to cross over into the dream time while awake. Still,

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<v Speaker 3>so yeah, very grateful for how I was raised and

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<v Speaker 3>that I can have all of these parts in me

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<v Speaker 3>that now are being really like welcomed by the world

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<v Speaker 3>because everybody wants to know about all these things.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love it. Before we started, I mentioned that

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<v Speaker 2>I've after reading the book, I felt that you both

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<v Speaker 2>were what you could considered present day shaman. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't neither one of you've balked at all, because

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<v Speaker 2>you're kind of like, well, maybe that's a definition of

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<v Speaker 2>what we do. Well, when I say that to you, Norma,

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<v Speaker 2>what does that imply? How do you feel about that?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, well, I was saying to you that the word

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<v Speaker 1>shaman has been perhaps appropriated and overused some and so

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<v Speaker 1>now people are tending to shy away from it. But

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<v Speaker 1>when I was younger, I was called together by my

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<v Speaker 1>whole community tribe, the elders, when I was seventeen, and

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<v Speaker 1>they said, we've watched you grow up and we know

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<v Speaker 1>you have a spiritual calling.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmmm.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was seen as having some you know, special

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<v Speaker 1>psychic abilities I guess, and energy of healing, and so

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<v Speaker 1>the only direction I knew to go was toward seminary

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<v Speaker 1>and getting educated to be a minister, right, which I did,

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<v Speaker 1>But all along I knew it wasn't really quite a

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<v Speaker 1>minister in the Christian sense, although I deeply value who

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<v Speaker 1>Christ really was, of course, which I think is one

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<v Speaker 1>of the greatest shamans that's lived.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good term. I never thought about Christ he

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<v Speaker 2>as a shaman.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So that I kept seeking out though, well, what

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<v Speaker 1>are other models in the world for being a spiritual healer?

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<v Speaker 1>And Michael Harner in the late seventies brought back the

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<v Speaker 1>term shaman from the Amazon, but really it originated in Mongolia, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So this word to name a spiritual healer leader in

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<v Speaker 1>the tribe became very resonant with me, and I felt like, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>I think this is what I felt in my soul

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<v Speaker 1>and was called to. So I value what that concept is.

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<v Speaker 3>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's different than a priest too, you know. It's

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<v Speaker 1>a shaman is someone who lives more on the edge

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<v Speaker 1>of town, on the edge of society, and it's not

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<v Speaker 1>there to just uphold the societal norms. But people come

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<v Speaker 1>to you when they're ready to deconstruct how they have

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<v Speaker 1>identified in the world and go into this deep deconstruction

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<v Speaker 1>of self so that they can become more whole and

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<v Speaker 1>more integrated. And that may be challenging to society's constructs.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's a difference between a shaman and a priest.

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<v Speaker 2>Working with indigenous people in some ways getting educated and mentoring.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that you've been in practice for many years, do

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<v Speaker 2>you think that we are missing something in our therapeutic

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<v Speaker 2>approach the general psychological evaluation and therapy. I mean, you

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<v Speaker 2>must be shocked at some of the stuff that is recommended,

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<v Speaker 2>But just quick, can you give us a sense of

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<v Speaker 2>why the path that you've chosen is more comfortable than

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps traditional therapy.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a great question. As I was trying to into

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<v Speaker 1>it and be carefully crafting and being informed by spirit

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<v Speaker 1>about my career path, I made several key choices because

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<v Speaker 1>I saw the psychoelmic world is going in a direction

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<v Speaker 1>of more and more clinical rigidity and uprating the healer

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<v Speaker 1>from the people, putting oneself on a pedestal and being

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<v Speaker 1>not affected by and I always knew that wasn't true.

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<v Speaker 1>I always felt a deep inter beingness and yet you

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<v Speaker 1>know to have good boundaries, but at the same time,

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<v Speaker 1>know that we are not so separate from the ones

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<v Speaker 1>that were healing. So a book then later came out

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<v Speaker 1>that validated it, called Present and there's ay done by

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<v Speaker 1>a psychiatrists in New York that showed that no, the

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<v Speaker 1>therapist is not an unaffected observer, that we are a

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<v Speaker 1>part of the community.

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<v Speaker 3>So I.

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<v Speaker 1>Veered away from being a clinical psychologist and went toward

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<v Speaker 1>pastoral counseling, which you still get a deep training in

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<v Speaker 1>all aspects of abnormal psychology and psychology, but you're moved

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<v Speaker 1>into a communal role. So that's one part of it.

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<v Speaker 1>The communal role where you're in the position of being

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<v Speaker 1>with the people not so separated off. You have to

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<v Speaker 1>learn really good boundaries and confidentiality. But at the same

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<v Speaker 1>time you are an anamkara, a friend to the soul

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<v Speaker 1>of people in the community. That's one thing. A second

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<v Speaker 1>thing that's different is animism. That we are living in

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<v Speaker 1>an animistic world and we are part of it. We

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<v Speaker 1>are animals too, so to speak, you know, we are

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<v Speaker 1>part of the spirituality of the natural environment and that

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<v Speaker 1>can't be cut off. So early on I went towards

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<v Speaker 1>trans personal psychology as it was developed in my youth right,

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<v Speaker 1>that we don't separate ourselves from the spiritual dimensions. That's

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<v Speaker 1>a very important part of counseling. And so we accept

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<v Speaker 1>that we are greater than these bodies that were not

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<v Speaker 1>just limited to ordinary reality. So that's another part of it.

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<v Speaker 1>And then another part of it is that we are

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<v Speaker 1>ritual oriented. So ritual is very important to humans, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>doing things that connect us to the spiritual realm. So

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<v Speaker 1>my counseling process involves various rituals that I've been taught

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<v Speaker 1>by the Weechul and others to bring people into contact. Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not just two humans doing this together. We are

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<v Speaker 1>in connection with things greater than ourselves, with great spirit,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're being met and guided. So those are some

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<v Speaker 1>ways that I think the shamanic type counseling is different.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I was thinking, we just came out of

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<v Speaker 2>this pandemic, and if you guys are doing the therapy

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<v Speaker 2>work on Zoom, they imagine that my imagination was going

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<v Speaker 2>to a drumming circle on Zoom. Did you guys do that?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, that's kind right. I mean, you don't get

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<v Speaker 2>the same effect because the vibration isn't the same because

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<v Speaker 2>you're being passed through the little speakers, but maybe the

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<v Speaker 2>visual of everybody beating their drums still has the same effect.

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<v Speaker 1>I guess definitely do it all on zoom, And yet

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<v Speaker 1>in my counseling process, like I have several weeks and

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<v Speaker 1>sessions that we can do it all on zoom, but

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<v Speaker 1>then I say, now we have to be together in person.

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<v Speaker 1>There's certain junctures in the deep journey to completion process

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<v Speaker 1>where I bring everybody together in person, because you're so

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<v Speaker 1>right that the energetic presence, in vibrational reality of being

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<v Speaker 1>in person is different than being a zoom.

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<v Speaker 2>Fantastic nishe Your book covers the topic of the shadow,

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of people don't understand what the shadow is.

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<v Speaker 2>What is the shadow and why is it so important

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<v Speaker 2>to identify the various aspects.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so it's true that a lot of people talk

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<v Speaker 3>about the shadow nowadays and invoke it and then don't

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<v Speaker 3>necessarily know what to do with it or how to

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<v Speaker 3>handle it. And I again feel really grateful to be

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<v Speaker 3>raised by my mom and her modality of shadow work

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<v Speaker 3>that she teaches, which is called the Journey to Completion,

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<v Speaker 3>because it feels like it is one of the most

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<v Speaker 3>accurate systems out there for identifying the shadow and understanding

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<v Speaker 3>how to work with it and then how to actually

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<v Speaker 3>bring it all the way through to healing so that

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<v Speaker 3>you can get the gift out of it. So I'll

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<v Speaker 3>begin talking about the shadow, and then my mom can

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<v Speaker 3>also talk about it. But the shadow she always talks

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<v Speaker 3>about is when somebody experiences trauma, then there's a split

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<v Speaker 3>that happens, and one part of you goes into the persona,

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<v Speaker 3>which is who you present to the world, and then

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<v Speaker 3>the other part goes down into the shadow, and that's

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<v Speaker 3>the part that you might have had to suppress or

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<v Speaker 3>to silence your voice, to put things down in there.

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<v Speaker 3>And we're always seeking to come back into wholeness. But

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<v Speaker 3>if we're operating from this place of being split, then

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of times we're working with projections and seeing

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<v Speaker 3>the shadow externally. And she has a really amazing way

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<v Speaker 3>of framing the shadow too, that's very unique. Where there's

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<v Speaker 3>inner shadow, which is how you are reacting to situations,

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<v Speaker 3>and there's the outer shadow, which is the people that

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<v Speaker 3>are triggering you or the situations that you're currently seeing

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00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:09.880
<v Speaker 3>appear in your life. These patterns and these people that

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00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:13.720
<v Speaker 3>are personifying these energies that are irritating to you and

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00:28:13.759 --> 00:28:16.200
<v Speaker 3>are triggering to you, but it's because it's part of

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00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:20.680
<v Speaker 3>the shadow pattern that exists together within yourself. So with

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00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.599
<v Speaker 3>her work, what she does is she helps people to

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<v Speaker 3>really name those things, to trace the traumas as they've

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<v Speaker 3>occurred related to a particular shadow pattern, and then to

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<v Speaker 3>do the work of be integrating the shadow. And a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of what I talk about too is with the

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<v Speaker 3>dream time, you will see the shadow appear in the

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<v Speaker 3>form of nightmares, in the form of recurrent dreams. This

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00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:52.039
<v Speaker 3>is your psyche trying to work through these shadow patterns

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<v Speaker 3>and work through these past traumas. But if people don't

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00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:59.359
<v Speaker 3>have the right skills or tools to work through them,

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<v Speaker 3>then a lot of times that can be something that

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00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.480
<v Speaker 3>turns them off from the dream time too, because maybe

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<v Speaker 3>they're having a lot of nightmares and are like, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't want to remember my dreams. I don't want to

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<v Speaker 3>be in touch with my dream time because it's a horrible,

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00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:14.440
<v Speaker 3>scary place, right But really understanding, no, that is your

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00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:18.240
<v Speaker 3>inner world, your psyche letting you know, hey, there's something

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<v Speaker 3>that I want to work through, and I'm going to

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00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.680
<v Speaker 3>present this to you over and over again and in

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<v Speaker 3>stronger ways until you start to listen to it and

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00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:29.480
<v Speaker 3>then seek out and waking reality, the shadow work help,

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<v Speaker 3>and then in the dream time, the lucid dreaming work

419
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:35.799
<v Speaker 3>that you can do with nightmares and the shadow and

420
00:29:35.839 --> 00:29:37.920
<v Speaker 3>the dream time is really powerful. So we can talk

421
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:38.480
<v Speaker 3>more about that.

422
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:40.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I want to talk more about lucid dreaming, which

423
00:29:40.759 --> 00:29:44.319
<v Speaker 2>is kind of your sweet spot. But norma you use

424
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:50.839
<v Speaker 2>a term called psycho navigation as a theme in the

425
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:53.160
<v Speaker 2>therapeutic work that you do. Can you define that a

426
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.160
<v Speaker 2>little bit and how you and this is this theme

427
00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:01.519
<v Speaker 2>runs through the book. How this is the important aspect

428
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:08.680
<v Speaker 2>of identifying problematic trauma and how to resolve it. This

429
00:30:08.799 --> 00:30:10.960
<v Speaker 2>is the beginning of it. And we're going to talk

430
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:13.440
<v Speaker 2>about the three key elements in a minute. But if

431
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:16.279
<v Speaker 2>we could just get the psycho navigation to find I

432
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:18.799
<v Speaker 2>really appreciate that, right.

433
00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:23.200
<v Speaker 1>That's the theme of our book, psycho meaning the psyche,

434
00:30:24.440 --> 00:30:29.119
<v Speaker 1>the conscious and unconscious navigation. Like you're navigating a ship,

435
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, you have to have a map and orient

436
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:36.000
<v Speaker 1>yourself so that you know where you're going and where

437
00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:40.799
<v Speaker 1>you want to get to. So we have the premise

438
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:46.240
<v Speaker 1>in this book that in ancient cultures that are like

439
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:51.279
<v Speaker 1>we've been talking about, shamanic nature based people were taught

440
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:54.559
<v Speaker 1>from the time they were children to learn how to

441
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:59.319
<v Speaker 1>navigate in their own psyche through the dream time. They

442
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:03.680
<v Speaker 1>were taught navigation skills. And this came about all over

443
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:08.119
<v Speaker 1>the world in a similar way of valuing dreams and

444
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:12.839
<v Speaker 1>learning from them, and of going into the altered state

445
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:17.559
<v Speaker 1>by being let in there by a drum. And then

446
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:22.880
<v Speaker 1>in that altered state there are geographies to explore. And

447
00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.480
<v Speaker 1>I've done this work with people all over the world

448
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:29.880
<v Speaker 1>and it's amazing how humans in Japan, South America, Europe

449
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:35.519
<v Speaker 1>all go to similar geographies in the dream time. Now

450
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:40.720
<v Speaker 1>what does that mean? We humans have these places that

451
00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:45.839
<v Speaker 1>actually exist in altered states that we go to. So

452
00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:49.640
<v Speaker 1>I've learned these maps, you know, for over forty years,

453
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:53.039
<v Speaker 1>these maps of the inner terrain, and then I discovered

454
00:31:53.119 --> 00:31:56.799
<v Speaker 1>that just a few years ago that there are shamanic

455
00:31:56.880 --> 00:32:00.160
<v Speaker 1>drums being discovered from ancient times in different cultures like

456
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:04.480
<v Speaker 1>the Sami and Norway all tie way down in Lower Russia,

457
00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:09.240
<v Speaker 1>in all these different places where shamans made the maps

458
00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:12.519
<v Speaker 1>on their drumhead of the places that they were exploring,

459
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:17.599
<v Speaker 1>and they were very similar to the maps that I've

460
00:32:18.519 --> 00:32:22.480
<v Speaker 1>journeyed on myself and watched people exploring. So psycho navigating

461
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:28.160
<v Speaker 1>implies there are maps to follow, there are large general maps,

462
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:31.440
<v Speaker 1>and then you have to discover the map of your

463
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.880
<v Speaker 1>own inner pathways in your psyche. So this is the

464
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.319
<v Speaker 1>work that people are jumping into, kind of into the

465
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:42.000
<v Speaker 1>deep end when they take psychedelics, because you're going to

466
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:47.279
<v Speaker 1>be going into these altered space zones but quite unaware

467
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:50.799
<v Speaker 1>of what the patterns are and how to navigate there.

468
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:53.720
<v Speaker 1>So that's why in our book, we're really trying to

469
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:56.759
<v Speaker 1>let people know, hey, there are precursor methods that you

470
00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:01.079
<v Speaker 1>can develop that you can learn how to gradually, step

471
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:06.680
<v Speaker 1>by step navigate well and purposefully and accurately in your

472
00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:07.559
<v Speaker 1>inner domains.

473
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just want to.

474
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Add something to that too.

475
00:33:10.519 --> 00:33:14.400
<v Speaker 3>In our book, we talk a lot about this concept

476
00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:20.000
<v Speaker 3>of monophasic versus polyphasic awareness, and what those terms mean

477
00:33:20.279 --> 00:33:24.160
<v Speaker 3>is monophasic is when you're aware of one phase of

478
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.400
<v Speaker 3>consciousness of reality, and polyphasic, as you can hear in

479
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.440
<v Speaker 3>the word, means many phases. And so our culture is

480
00:33:30.559 --> 00:33:35.440
<v Speaker 3>very monophasicly oriented, meaning we're aware of waking reality. That's

481
00:33:35.480 --> 00:33:37.680
<v Speaker 3>what we put the importance on like I said earlier,

482
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:41.240
<v Speaker 3>and that's all we regard really and are told to

483
00:33:41.279 --> 00:33:43.519
<v Speaker 3>forget our dream time, forget these other realms that we're

484
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:50.440
<v Speaker 3>venturing into. But polyphasic cultures really appreciate and value all

485
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:52.200
<v Speaker 3>the phases we go through. And why I bring it

486
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:55.000
<v Speaker 3>up in relation to what my mom's talking about is

487
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.960
<v Speaker 3>to be aware of the subtle because I feel like

488
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:01.920
<v Speaker 3>in our culture we get so oriented towards extremes, and

489
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:05.759
<v Speaker 3>so that's why psychedelics too, can be really alluring because

490
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:09.599
<v Speaker 3>there's an extreme experience of an altered state of consciousness.

491
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:13.920
<v Speaker 3>But truly we are constantly being altered, and we drink

492
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.320
<v Speaker 3>caffeine and then we're altered that way, or we have

493
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:19.280
<v Speaker 3>a charged experience with somebody, we're altered that way. In

494
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:22.599
<v Speaker 3>the dream time, we're in another state of consciousness. And

495
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:25.119
<v Speaker 3>so what we're teaching people, as you can hear, is

496
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:30.199
<v Speaker 3>to be very present and aware continuously of what state

497
00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:33.280
<v Speaker 3>of reality they're in and what state of reality their

498
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:36.639
<v Speaker 3>consciousness is in, because when you track that, when you

499
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:39.480
<v Speaker 3>learn the maps of that, then you can live and

500
00:34:39.559 --> 00:34:42.119
<v Speaker 3>dream with more lucidity, which is what we talk about,

501
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:46.079
<v Speaker 3>because you're really taking note of where your consciousness is

502
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:46.840
<v Speaker 3>in every moment.

503
00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:52.599
<v Speaker 2>I like that. We're going to take a short commercial

504
00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:56.960
<v Speaker 2>break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we

505
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:01.000
<v Speaker 2>will return shortly with my guests today, authors Norma and

506
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Nisha Burton, discussing their new book, Navigating Liminal Realms, will

507
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:59.760
<v Speaker 2>be right back. My guests today are Norma and Nisha Burton,

508
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:03.360
<v Speaker 2>a mother and daughter team who've written a new book

509
00:36:03.920 --> 00:36:15.079
<v Speaker 2>on shamanic journeying called Navigating Liminal Realms. The premise of

510
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.440
<v Speaker 2>the book, I feel, is that you need to do

511
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:21.000
<v Speaker 2>the work before you take the psychedelics. And I like

512
00:36:21.079 --> 00:36:24.760
<v Speaker 2>that because I think a nishe you phrase it beautifully.

513
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.800
<v Speaker 2>I think people want to quick fix and they want

514
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.760
<v Speaker 2>to take LSD or ayahuasca because everyone else is doing

515
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:34.960
<v Speaker 2>it and they're missing out on the fact that our

516
00:36:35.320 --> 00:36:40.840
<v Speaker 2>Native elders were doing work and at the very end

517
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.840
<v Speaker 2>of a ceremony or whatever, after perhaps weeks or maybe

518
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:49.159
<v Speaker 2>even months, then a piote experience was delivered. Talk a

519
00:36:49.159 --> 00:36:53.760
<v Speaker 2>little bit about that, Norma, and this is I think

520
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:59.679
<v Speaker 2>the fundamental basis of your book is that drumming dream

521
00:36:59.719 --> 00:37:08.119
<v Speaker 2>work prior to doing the psychedelic journeying is really critical,

522
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:08.559
<v Speaker 2>isn't it.

523
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:12.199
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that is exactly the premise of our book and

524
00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:14.440
<v Speaker 1>why we felt it was crucial timing to get the

525
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:20.199
<v Speaker 1>book out there because there's so much seeking of altered

526
00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:23.719
<v Speaker 1>states through psychedelics going on, like we know, and there's

527
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:27.360
<v Speaker 1>done also a lot of exploitation and danger that is

528
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:32.599
<v Speaker 1>developing right and people are lots of times not having

529
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:38.920
<v Speaker 1>very good experiences because they're not taking it more slowly.

530
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:44.400
<v Speaker 1>So the book shows that there are ways to have

531
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:50.400
<v Speaker 1>amazing altered state experiences naturally without them being induced by

532
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:54.599
<v Speaker 1>any substance. Because that's who we are. We have an

533
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.760
<v Speaker 1>inner cosmos that we are meant to explore. And as

534
00:37:58.840 --> 00:38:04.000
<v Speaker 1>Niche was saying, there are subtle ways that we as

535
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:07.519
<v Speaker 1>humans were taught by our shaman guides from the time

536
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:11.639
<v Speaker 1>that you're a child to be aware of subtleties so

537
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:15.719
<v Speaker 1>that you grow in your ability. It's like growing your neurons,

538
00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.199
<v Speaker 1>you know, growing your brain power to be much more

539
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:24.519
<v Speaker 1>aware of subtleties and energy. It's all about energy right

540
00:38:24.559 --> 00:38:28.599
<v Speaker 1>in our energetic exchange. So when you slow it all

541
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:32.199
<v Speaker 1>down and then teach people to walk this path of

542
00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:38.440
<v Speaker 1>inner awareness with more subtlety. You become more masterful in

543
00:38:38.599 --> 00:38:44.079
<v Speaker 1>ordinary reality dealing with energetic exchanges, as well as more

544
00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:48.159
<v Speaker 1>masterful in the dream time. And so there's the word impeccable.

545
00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:51.960
<v Speaker 1>I use that word a lot that we're heading toward

546
00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:56.239
<v Speaker 1>wanting to be more impeccable with energy, in other words,

547
00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:59.760
<v Speaker 1>doing the right thing in any particular moment with the

548
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:02.280
<v Speaker 1>energies that are present. So you've got to be aware

549
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:04.960
<v Speaker 1>of what the energies are, be aware of your own

550
00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:08.440
<v Speaker 1>energy system and your own abilities and skills so that

551
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:11.039
<v Speaker 1>you do the right thing in the moment. And I

552
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:15.559
<v Speaker 1>think that's what shamans have been trying to train people,

553
00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:19.119
<v Speaker 1>and with the use of psychedelics too, that you then

554
00:39:20.199 --> 00:39:24.000
<v Speaker 1>get big revelations about ways that you haven't been impeccable,

555
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:27.239
<v Speaker 1>or ways that energy has been misused around you and

556
00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:30.519
<v Speaker 1>you've been traumatized by it. You get to be very

557
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:35.840
<v Speaker 1>aware of that in an extreme way on a psychedelic journey. So,

558
00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:42.639
<v Speaker 1>like you're saying, the messages of the psychedelic journey were

559
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:47.840
<v Speaker 1>meant to punctuate a lot of inner work. So when

560
00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:50.519
<v Speaker 1>I worked with the Weichow for many years, for example,

561
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:54.000
<v Speaker 1>we did a lot of slow in our work with

562
00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:56.920
<v Speaker 1>them over a long period of time, and then we

563
00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:01.960
<v Speaker 1>would be given the peyote. It was a huge revelation

564
00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:06.920
<v Speaker 1>that brought together all that we'd been learning about ourselves.

565
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:11.239
<v Speaker 1>And then they would tell us go slowly afterwards, and

566
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:13.800
<v Speaker 1>we weren't allowed to take the peyote again for maybe

567
00:40:13.800 --> 00:40:14.920
<v Speaker 1>two years.

568
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Wow, a lot of.

569
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:20.119
<v Speaker 1>You needed to integrate it and go very slowly in

570
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:24.679
<v Speaker 1>the integration of it. So, yeah, I think indigenous cultures

571
00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:27.679
<v Speaker 1>didn't just use it over and over and over again

572
00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:29.920
<v Speaker 1>in such close repetition, you know.

573
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:35.320
<v Speaker 2>Uh, yeah, I was going to ask you, how quickly

574
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:40.840
<v Speaker 2>did they introduce psychedelics in the indigenous tradition for you?

575
00:40:41.079 --> 00:40:45.440
<v Speaker 2>Was it like after a month, a year, or at

576
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:48.039
<v Speaker 2>the end of a cycle of learning or what.

577
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:51.679
<v Speaker 1>Yes, at the end of a cycle of learning. So

578
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:55.039
<v Speaker 1>for me, it was several years of being with them, and.

579
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:57.199
<v Speaker 2>That seems more natural to me. You know, I think

580
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:02.039
<v Speaker 2>people are jumping into ayahuasca right now, you know, I mean,

581
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:06.199
<v Speaker 2>that's just that's just Western culture. You know. We don't

582
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:08.039
<v Speaker 2>want to sit still and we don't want to do

583
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:08.800
<v Speaker 2>the work.

584
00:41:10.519 --> 00:41:13.840
<v Speaker 3>Well quick fixes. And I feel like that is something

585
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:18.119
<v Speaker 3>that the movement has kind of capitalized on. In some

586
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:21.519
<v Speaker 3>ways where it's like selling the miracle drugs of the

587
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:24.280
<v Speaker 3>next thing. You're going to do one mushroom journey and

588
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:26.679
<v Speaker 3>you're going to be healed from all your depression, and

589
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:29.840
<v Speaker 3>like we're talking about, yes, they can be really powerful

590
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.679
<v Speaker 3>punctuation tools to give you that insight and to create

591
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:37.440
<v Speaker 3>the neuroplasticity. But then it's nice now because more people

592
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 3>are talking about integration, and that's the true change happens,

593
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:46.280
<v Speaker 3>the preparation and the integration. And so really with many

594
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:51.320
<v Speaker 3>plant medicines, the integration is going to be unfolding in you.

595
00:41:51.840 --> 00:41:54.920
<v Speaker 3>For like my mom was saying many years and especially

596
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:58.719
<v Speaker 3>right after going on a plant medicine journey, the dreams

597
00:41:58.760 --> 00:42:02.679
<v Speaker 3>that you're having, the mess that you're receiving, the synchronicities

598
00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:05.880
<v Speaker 3>that you're seeing in your waking reality and your dream time,

599
00:42:06.320 --> 00:42:09.559
<v Speaker 3>all of this is the medicine still speaking to you

600
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:12.119
<v Speaker 3>and still working with you. But then if you rush

601
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.000
<v Speaker 3>to the next journey, if you rush to the next thing,

602
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:17.480
<v Speaker 3>Oh I heard that this, you know, psychedelic is really great.

603
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:20.679
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to do this next weekend, then you're probably

604
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:24.119
<v Speaker 3>missing a lot of the messages, and that change doesn't

605
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.400
<v Speaker 3>have an opportunity to actually take hold because you're just

606
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.119
<v Speaker 3>running to the next thing, the next thing.

607
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:33.639
<v Speaker 2>No, I really like that definition nische, because opening neural

608
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:36.400
<v Speaker 2>pathways is not a small deal. It's a big deal,

609
00:42:37.119 --> 00:42:41.320
<v Speaker 2>and you should let it unfold before taking on another journey.

610
00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:45.639
<v Speaker 2>And as your mom was mentioning, that can take years. Yeah,

611
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:49.039
<v Speaker 2>because these are powerful stimulants to the brain. You know,

612
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:54.320
<v Speaker 2>so perhaps the whole idea of continually microdosiness and such

613
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:57.199
<v Speaker 2>a great idea after all, you know, because you're not

614
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:00.599
<v Speaker 2>allowing the journey to unfold.

615
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:05.039
<v Speaker 1>Well, I'll address the microdosing in a second, but I

616
00:43:05.079 --> 00:43:08.199
<v Speaker 1>just wanted to say to what you're both saying. I

617
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:14.840
<v Speaker 1>talk about unmetabolized shadow unmetabolized you know, so you're bringing

618
00:43:14.920 --> 00:43:18.840
<v Speaker 1>up the shadow material. But then if you just go

619
00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:21.880
<v Speaker 1>right on to the next alter experience and next, you

620
00:43:21.920 --> 00:43:25.679
<v Speaker 1>can see how you're not taking the time to metabolize

621
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:28.719
<v Speaker 1>what's been given to you. So I've counseled a lot

622
00:43:28.760 --> 00:43:32.679
<v Speaker 1>of people that are under a shadow, so to speak.

623
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:37.360
<v Speaker 1>You know that they're more blocked from themselves than they

624
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:41.519
<v Speaker 1>were before because they have so much they haven't metabolized.

625
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.039
<v Speaker 1>And then, you know, I ran a drug and alcohol

626
00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:50.960
<v Speaker 1>Recovery Center, but used altered state induction through the Drumming

627
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:55.119
<v Speaker 1>journey to help people realize that you can still access

628
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:59.280
<v Speaker 1>altered states without drugs and that there's a lot of

629
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:03.679
<v Speaker 1>integration work to be done. So as we're all saying,

630
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:09.639
<v Speaker 1>we're not at all against the amazing and wonderful effects

631
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:13.639
<v Speaker 1>of psychedelics and these plant medicines that have been given

632
00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.800
<v Speaker 1>to us. It's an extremely valuable thing that humans have.

633
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:21.719
<v Speaker 1>But in Western culture we do tend to grasp after,

634
00:44:22.840 --> 00:44:26.559
<v Speaker 1>you know, these quick fixes. And for example, living in

635
00:44:26.639 --> 00:44:30.679
<v Speaker 1>Japan for several years, they were amazed at how someone

636
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:33.960
<v Speaker 1>would come to Japan and study Aikdo for three weeks

637
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:35.840
<v Speaker 1>and then go back to the United States and say

638
00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:37.079
<v Speaker 1>they're an Aikdo teacher.

639
00:44:37.159 --> 00:44:37.400
<v Speaker 2>You know.

640
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.039
<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of similar to that, right, like wanting

641
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 1>to despond to something and not taking the time to

642
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.440
<v Speaker 1>really learn it yourself and in yourself.

643
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:51.199
<v Speaker 2>Let's talk about drumming for a minute. This is another

644
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:57.199
<v Speaker 2>important part of the book once and tell me a

645
00:44:57.199 --> 00:45:00.599
<v Speaker 2>little bit about how you go about working with it.

646
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Does the individual identify a shadow and then use drumming

647
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.719
<v Speaker 2>as a way to release it or identify in a

648
00:45:10.760 --> 00:45:14.519
<v Speaker 2>better manner so that it's more tactile or what. How

649
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:18.400
<v Speaker 2>does the drumming work to integrate the healing.

650
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's perhaps not what people think when they first

651
00:45:23.320 --> 00:45:27.199
<v Speaker 1>hear it, because it's not that you're just sitting there

652
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:30.519
<v Speaker 1>and everyone's drumming, or that you're in a drumming vibe.

653
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:32.320
<v Speaker 1>Although that's a wonderful thing to do.

654
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.599
<v Speaker 2>I've done a few drumming circles. They're kind of cool, you.

655
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Know, very cool because you do go into a wonderful

656
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:43.360
<v Speaker 1>stage being this with each other in the drumming. But no,

657
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:49.039
<v Speaker 1>this is the person receiving the journey lays down and

658
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:54.320
<v Speaker 1>is instructed about a pathway, how to take the pathway

659
00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:59.199
<v Speaker 1>into the deep unconscious, and the guide person is doing

660
00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:02.679
<v Speaker 1>the drumming, and it's a certain style of drumming that

661
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:06.159
<v Speaker 1>has to be at a certain rate that takes the

662
00:46:06.199 --> 00:46:11.559
<v Speaker 1>person's consciousness into this deep zone. So you're instructed in

663
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:13.440
<v Speaker 1>a certain way, which I can just say what that

664
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:17.360
<v Speaker 1>is briefly, you know, but you have to go into

665
00:46:17.440 --> 00:46:21.000
<v Speaker 1>a portal that's actually a place that exists in ordinary

666
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:23.960
<v Speaker 1>reality that you've been, that you're very familiar with, that's

667
00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:27.119
<v Speaker 1>a place in nature that is a portal for you

668
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:31.039
<v Speaker 1>into the underworld, so you don't just pop into altered

669
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:34.519
<v Speaker 1>states from anywhere, which is a big mistake that people make.

670
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:36.800
<v Speaker 1>They don't know where they've gone from and where they're

671
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:41.159
<v Speaker 1>coming back to. So that portal anchor in nature is

672
00:46:41.239 --> 00:46:44.480
<v Speaker 1>really important. And then you're instructed to put your mind

673
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:49.239
<v Speaker 1>to work digging down from there, digging for perhaps a

674
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:52.119
<v Speaker 1>long time before you learn how to get there. But

675
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:56.159
<v Speaker 1>in that digging process, you're learning how to train your mind,

676
00:46:56.480 --> 00:47:02.440
<v Speaker 1>so you're training your mind into cooperating with getting there.

677
00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:06.079
<v Speaker 1>And then you arrive in an underworld place which you're

678
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:10.239
<v Speaker 1>not supposed to go around exploring it by yourself. You

679
00:47:10.400 --> 00:47:12.800
<v Speaker 1>just wait there and the first thing that you do

680
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:15.599
<v Speaker 1>is call out to a being to come and meet you,

681
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:18.679
<v Speaker 1>the power animal, because they are your guide in the

682
00:47:18.760 --> 00:47:22.519
<v Speaker 1>underworld zone. You're not alone there, and you're not supposed

683
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:24.960
<v Speaker 1>to be alone. You're not supposed to go around on

684
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:28.000
<v Speaker 1>your own. You're supposed to learn how to follow after power.

685
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:32.960
<v Speaker 1>The power and that being is real. It's not just

686
00:47:33.000 --> 00:47:38.239
<v Speaker 1>this wou woo you know thing that the modern culture

687
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:40.760
<v Speaker 1>has come up with. Now. It's an ancient truth and

688
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:44.079
<v Speaker 1>cultures all over the world that the animals are there

689
00:47:44.199 --> 00:47:47.920
<v Speaker 1>to guide us. Even Rudolph Steiner said, the animals are

690
00:47:47.920 --> 00:47:50.480
<v Speaker 1>a little lower than the angels, and they're here to

691
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:51.079
<v Speaker 1>help us.

692
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:51.440
<v Speaker 3>Right.

693
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:55.719
<v Speaker 1>So you form this relationship that's a real relationship of

694
00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:58.880
<v Speaker 1>intimacy with this being, and we call it the I

695
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:04.360
<v Speaker 1>Thou relationship ship is Martin Bueber talked about that, I'm

696
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:08.360
<v Speaker 1>with someone in our consciousness and then you explore your

697
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:12.559
<v Speaker 1>inner terrain and there are many places to explore and

698
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:16.199
<v Speaker 1>experiences to have that train you step by step by

699
00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:21.079
<v Speaker 1>step in how to navigate. So I've watched people, you know,

700
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:24.559
<v Speaker 1>thousands of people go on these exact steps, and even

701
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:27.039
<v Speaker 1>if I don't tell them, I don't tell them the

702
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.360
<v Speaker 1>step ahead of time, and spirit guides them to the

703
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:33.159
<v Speaker 1>next step and the next step. So there's like a

704
00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:38.119
<v Speaker 1>whole school system within the deep unconscious and the dream

705
00:48:38.159 --> 00:48:41.400
<v Speaker 1>time that you're taken in to be trained in how

706
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:44.960
<v Speaker 1>to navigate by being guided by the power animal.

707
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I didn't even ask you, guys, do you work

708
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:53.079
<v Speaker 2>together as counselors when you see people or having you

709
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:56.119
<v Speaker 2>like a team approach? How do you guys work?

710
00:48:56.840 --> 00:49:01.039
<v Speaker 3>It's really fun nowadays to be on this ship pathway

711
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:03.840
<v Speaker 3>together you know, I have my whole other career of

712
00:49:03.880 --> 00:49:08.960
<v Speaker 3>being a filmmaker and an emerging technologist, but now being

713
00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:12.199
<v Speaker 3>able to again bring this lineage forth. The way that

714
00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:15.519
<v Speaker 3>we're working together is by co teaching together. And my

715
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.039
<v Speaker 3>mom is a therapist as you're hearing, so she has

716
00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:21.039
<v Speaker 3>her clients too that she works with in the profound

717
00:49:21.039 --> 00:49:24.119
<v Speaker 3>system of the journey to completion. But then together we've

718
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:28.880
<v Speaker 3>been doing more retreats and co teaching what we're and

719
00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:33.960
<v Speaker 3>gather these two modalities of the drumming journeys, the shadow

720
00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.039
<v Speaker 3>work and then the lucid dreaming and dream time work.

721
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:39.280
<v Speaker 3>And it's really beautiful. And as my mom was talking,

722
00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:43.679
<v Speaker 3>I was thinking about how really being raised doing drumming

723
00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:48.239
<v Speaker 3>journeys from a young age to be able to have

724
00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:50.760
<v Speaker 3>to take off in the skill of lucid dreaming very

725
00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:54.519
<v Speaker 3>quickly because I was encouraged in my dream time. I

726
00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:56.760
<v Speaker 3>always shared my dreams with my mom and she would,

727
00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:01.199
<v Speaker 3>you know, beautifully work with them with me. And also,

728
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:04.960
<v Speaker 3>the drumming journey and the state that you're going into

729
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:08.679
<v Speaker 3>is similar to the journey you take if you're taking

730
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:12.800
<v Speaker 3>your waking consciousness and bringing it directly through into a

731
00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.679
<v Speaker 3>lucid dream which is a bit of a more advanced technique,

732
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:18.760
<v Speaker 3>but it's training you in this pathway like you're hearing

733
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:23.159
<v Speaker 3>about of how to maintain lucidity, meaning how to maintain

734
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:27.400
<v Speaker 3>awareness as you enter into the dream time or a

735
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:31.199
<v Speaker 3>non ordinary state of consciousness. And so then once you

736
00:50:31.280 --> 00:50:35.239
<v Speaker 3>start doing the practices of lucid dreaming, which are waking

737
00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:38.280
<v Speaker 3>reality practices, there are things you do while you're awake

738
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:42.639
<v Speaker 3>to constantly be questioning what phase of awareness am I in?

739
00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:46.719
<v Speaker 3>Am I actually awake? Or am I dreaming? And when

740
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:50.360
<v Speaker 3>you do that during the day again, you're creating these

741
00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:54.960
<v Speaker 3>neural pathways that are constantly questioning could I be dreaming?

742
00:50:55.119 --> 00:50:58.119
<v Speaker 3>Which is a big thing that we don't do. It's

743
00:50:58.159 --> 00:51:00.719
<v Speaker 3>like biologically we don't do it because part of our

744
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:04.519
<v Speaker 3>prefrontal cortex is turned off where when we're in rem sleep.

745
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:10.559
<v Speaker 3>And so by being able to question that, what you're

746
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:13.440
<v Speaker 3>doing is you're training your mind to turn that part

747
00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:17.159
<v Speaker 3>of your brain back on while in rem sleep. And

748
00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:20.039
<v Speaker 3>once you do that, that's when you switch into a

749
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:23.000
<v Speaker 3>lucid dream, which is what a lot of scientists recently

750
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:26.320
<v Speaker 3>have studied what's actually happening in your brain when you

751
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:30.920
<v Speaker 3>switch into the lucid state. So by like you're hearing,

752
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:36.079
<v Speaker 3>By constantly questioning and working with these daytime practices, you

753
00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:39.360
<v Speaker 3>are training in the skill of lucidity and to question

754
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:41.920
<v Speaker 3>when you're in a dream, could I be dreaming? And

755
00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.199
<v Speaker 3>when you do that, that's when I call it the

756
00:51:44.280 --> 00:51:46.840
<v Speaker 3>light switch of lucidity flips on and you have that

757
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:51.719
<v Speaker 3>aha moment of realizing I'm dreaming within the dream, which

758
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:54.639
<v Speaker 3>is the definition of a lucid dream, when you realize

759
00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:58.239
<v Speaker 3>beyond doubt that you're dreaming while still immersed in the dream.

760
00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:01.000
<v Speaker 2>I think it was you that mentioned that you had

761
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:06.199
<v Speaker 2>studied the work of Stephen Leberge, who I knew personally

762
00:52:06.239 --> 00:52:09.119
<v Speaker 2>here and is a stanform and I used to be

763
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:11.960
<v Speaker 2>the program director for Whole Life Exponent. He spoke regularly,

764
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:14.920
<v Speaker 2>and when he was talking about lucid dreaming, it was like,

765
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:17.559
<v Speaker 2>I want to do that. I want to do that,

766
00:52:18.199 --> 00:52:23.119
<v Speaker 2>but it takes work. It takes consistent dreaming, and I

767
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:29.159
<v Speaker 2>just don't have consistent dreaming. But it's important to consider

768
00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:32.159
<v Speaker 2>lucid dreaming for real healing, isn't it.

769
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:36.000
<v Speaker 3>It is because you are really able to go into

770
00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:41.079
<v Speaker 3>your unconscious, into your deep inner worlds. And bring this

771
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:44.760
<v Speaker 3>lucidity where then you're able to do things that you

772
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:48.320
<v Speaker 3>couldn't otherwise, because once you have that realization that you're

773
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:51.480
<v Speaker 3>dreaming within the dream, you have this level of agency

774
00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:53.840
<v Speaker 3>that turns on because you're like, oh, this is a dream,

775
00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:57.679
<v Speaker 3>so I could And then having a clear intention of

776
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:00.440
<v Speaker 3>what you want to do once you become lucid, So

777
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:03.679
<v Speaker 3>say you're wanting to do more psychological work within yourself

778
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:07.039
<v Speaker 3>and have a dialogue with your inner child, you can

779
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:09.880
<v Speaker 3>have the intention before you go to sleep. I'd like

780
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:12.519
<v Speaker 3>to become lucid tonight, and when I do, I'd like

781
00:53:12.599 --> 00:53:16.079
<v Speaker 3>to call upon, summon my inner child to talk through

782
00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:19.199
<v Speaker 3>this issue that I'm having, or this trauma that I

783
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:24.239
<v Speaker 3>had in my childhood. And whereas with active imagination or

784
00:53:24.280 --> 00:53:27.679
<v Speaker 3>guided visualization it can be powerful to do something similar,

785
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:31.800
<v Speaker 3>but then to dream, it's as real as waking reality.

786
00:53:32.159 --> 00:53:35.679
<v Speaker 3>It really like your sensorial factors turn fully on. You

787
00:53:35.719 --> 00:53:39.199
<v Speaker 3>feel like you're their taste touch, You can fly through

788
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:41.480
<v Speaker 3>the air and feel the wind rushing through your hair.

789
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:43.400
<v Speaker 3>So as you can imagine, it's not like you're just

790
00:53:43.480 --> 00:53:46.840
<v Speaker 3>imagining that you're talking to your inner child. You're actually there,

791
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:51.119
<v Speaker 3>present with them. And having this dialogue. And that's just

792
00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:53.920
<v Speaker 3>one example of what you can do once you become

793
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:57.840
<v Speaker 3>lucid for your deeper psychological work and spiritual work.

794
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:01.239
<v Speaker 1>You can hear the different state of kind consciousness than

795
00:54:01.400 --> 00:54:05.280
<v Speaker 1>just talk therapy. You're going into the state of consciousness

796
00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:11.440
<v Speaker 1>where things are coming at you. You're interrelating in a

797
00:54:11.480 --> 00:54:16.320
<v Speaker 1>way that's different than just thinking about it. So that's

798
00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:19.119
<v Speaker 1>what we're trying to get across about lucidity and being

799
00:54:19.159 --> 00:54:22.719
<v Speaker 1>in these realms of energy. You're actually in the moment

800
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:24.679
<v Speaker 1>interrelating with it.

801
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:30.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've had people on the program talking about dreaming.

802
00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:33.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm one of these people that just doesn't remember my

803
00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:38.400
<v Speaker 2>dreams simply because probably either too exhausted or I've had

804
00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:44.119
<v Speaker 2>so many scary dreams of my brain shuts down. But

805
00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:49.360
<v Speaker 2>you do present an important aspect of your writing, which

806
00:54:49.400 --> 00:54:52.119
<v Speaker 2>is to bring dreams in as a form of therapy.

807
00:54:53.159 --> 00:54:55.079
<v Speaker 2>And how do how does that work?

808
00:54:55.639 --> 00:54:55.920
<v Speaker 1>Normal?

809
00:54:56.079 --> 00:55:00.519
<v Speaker 2>How does that work where we're I guess we want

810
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:04.920
<v Speaker 2>to intend before we begin, right, intend on having a

811
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:08.920
<v Speaker 2>dream that's healing or brings us information we need and

812
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:09.519
<v Speaker 2>so forth.

813
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:14.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a big part of the therapy work because

814
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:17.559
<v Speaker 1>I have people we do a ritual I went through

815
00:55:17.559 --> 00:55:22.599
<v Speaker 1>with the Wheechole about committing to enter into the dream time.

816
00:55:22.719 --> 00:55:27.039
<v Speaker 1>So that means that you're being willing to begin to

817
00:55:27.119 --> 00:55:30.079
<v Speaker 1>really pay attention to your dreams. And if you don't

818
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:33.719
<v Speaker 1>remember them, there are techniques that we can give you

819
00:55:33.800 --> 00:55:37.039
<v Speaker 1>to help you remember them, because everybody is dreaming. It's

820
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:41.519
<v Speaker 1>been scientifically proven that everybody is dreaming at night, and

821
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:45.079
<v Speaker 1>there are ways to remember your dreams better, like, for example,

822
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:47.199
<v Speaker 1>just lay there when you first wake up and don't

823
00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:50.000
<v Speaker 1>move your head at all, because it's like an etchy sketch.

824
00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:53.119
<v Speaker 1>It erases the dream if you move your head, so

825
00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:56.440
<v Speaker 1>things like that, just you know, be very still when

826
00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:59.119
<v Speaker 1>you first wake up, and then try to record your dreams,

827
00:55:59.159 --> 00:56:02.719
<v Speaker 1>even if it's just one little tiny piece that you remember,

828
00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:05.760
<v Speaker 1>write it down and that shows your dream time that

829
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:09.039
<v Speaker 1>you're willing to receive, and it starts to open up

830
00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:12.960
<v Speaker 1>rather quickly after that. So yes, remembering your dreams is

831
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:15.880
<v Speaker 1>key to it, and we can help you to be

832
00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:19.320
<v Speaker 1>able to do that. And then the dreams start really

833
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:22.400
<v Speaker 1>wanting to communicate information to you. So I call that

834
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:25.599
<v Speaker 1>getting to the point where you're syncing up with your

835
00:56:25.679 --> 00:56:29.960
<v Speaker 1>dream time and ordinary reality. The dreams start presenting you

836
00:56:30.039 --> 00:56:33.679
<v Speaker 1>things that you've got to know about your ordinary reality,

837
00:56:33.800 --> 00:56:37.800
<v Speaker 1>and so we do a whole you know, integration learning

838
00:56:37.880 --> 00:56:44.559
<v Speaker 1>process between the dreams and ordinary reality in therapy. How

839
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:47.519
<v Speaker 1>could we leave out our dreams? You know, it's such

840
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:52.360
<v Speaker 1>a huge part of what we have access to and

841
00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:54.960
<v Speaker 1>our birthright to be able to pay attention to them.

842
00:56:56.599 --> 00:56:58.760
<v Speaker 3>And one thing I want to add to that too

843
00:56:59.159 --> 00:57:02.880
<v Speaker 3>is that as you're working with your dreams, you're learning

844
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:07.039
<v Speaker 3>your personal dream symbolism and your dream signs. And a

845
00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:09.519
<v Speaker 3>lot of times again we can get in our Western

846
00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:13.159
<v Speaker 3>culture the way we're oriented to externalizing authority, and so

847
00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:16.679
<v Speaker 3>we'll look to like dream dictionaries or different people to

848
00:57:16.800 --> 00:57:19.400
<v Speaker 3>interpret our dreams for us, and that could be helpful,

849
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.639
<v Speaker 3>but really the work that we're doing with people is

850
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:26.599
<v Speaker 3>teaching them how to track their dreams, how to learn

851
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:30.199
<v Speaker 3>and map what their dreams are telling them, and then

852
00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:33.679
<v Speaker 3>really being able to interpret them for themselves and look

853
00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:37.519
<v Speaker 3>at their dreams through these different frameworks and modalities so

854
00:57:37.559 --> 00:57:40.960
<v Speaker 3>that then they can make meaning of what the dream

855
00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:44.559
<v Speaker 3>was presenting and what they're dealing with in their waking reality.

856
00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:47.400
<v Speaker 3>And it's really powerful because you can take a dream

857
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:51.039
<v Speaker 3>that seems quite simple on the surface, or like, oh

858
00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:54.719
<v Speaker 3>that was, you know, just a weird, mundane dream, and

859
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:57.159
<v Speaker 3>a lot of people will disregard those dreams, will be like,

860
00:57:57.199 --> 00:57:59.079
<v Speaker 3>I don't even really want to write that down because

861
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:02.079
<v Speaker 3>that was nothing. But then as you start to pull

862
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:04.480
<v Speaker 3>the threads of it and you start to see, oh, well,

863
00:58:04.480 --> 00:58:07.280
<v Speaker 3>in that dream, I was driving my car and it

864
00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:09.760
<v Speaker 3>was kind of out of control, and hey, that's something

865
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:13.440
<v Speaker 3>that actually happens in my dreams often. And what is

866
00:58:13.480 --> 00:58:16.280
<v Speaker 3>happening in my life when I'm driving this car, which

867
00:58:16.360 --> 00:58:20.039
<v Speaker 3>can you know, symbolize your autonomy or your mobility, or

868
00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.599
<v Speaker 3>your your ability to move in the world. And then

869
00:58:22.840 --> 00:58:26.159
<v Speaker 3>it's malfunctioning. Okay, what's that relating to? So you can

870
00:58:26.199 --> 00:58:29.280
<v Speaker 3>see that's just a small taste of how you start

871
00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:32.639
<v Speaker 3>working with the symbolism that your dreams are speaking to

872
00:58:32.679 --> 00:58:35.960
<v Speaker 3>you in and then understanding what they're revealing to you.

873
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:38.360
<v Speaker 3>And one other thing I'll just note too, is that

874
00:58:39.239 --> 00:58:43.360
<v Speaker 3>it's amazing but a lot of times dreams are very precognitive,

875
00:58:43.760 --> 00:58:46.239
<v Speaker 3>and if you don't write them down, you miss that.

876
00:58:46.920 --> 00:58:50.000
<v Speaker 3>But so many times I've had dreams where, again it

877
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:52.440
<v Speaker 3>seemed like a very mundane one and I was like, ugh,

878
00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:54.079
<v Speaker 3>do I even need to write this down? But then

879
00:58:54.119 --> 00:58:56.679
<v Speaker 3>I did, And then the next day, or the next

880
00:58:56.719 --> 00:58:58.920
<v Speaker 3>week or the next month, I was dealing with the

881
00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:02.199
<v Speaker 3>exact issue that was appearing in my dream, or a

882
00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:05.840
<v Speaker 3>symbol from my dream then appeared in ordinary reality in

883
00:59:05.880 --> 00:59:08.280
<v Speaker 3>this way that I could have never expected. So our

884
00:59:08.360 --> 00:59:11.960
<v Speaker 3>dreams are constantly communicating to us and transmitting this deep

885
00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:14.960
<v Speaker 3>amount of knowledge that we don't have access to in

886
00:59:15.000 --> 00:59:16.719
<v Speaker 3>our waking consciousness.

887
00:59:17.159 --> 00:59:20.800
<v Speaker 2>I like that. We're going to take a short commercial

888
00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:25.360
<v Speaker 2>break to allow our sponsors to identify themselves, and we

889
00:59:25.400 --> 00:59:30.880
<v Speaker 2>will return with authors Norma and Nisha Burton discussing their

890
00:59:30.920 --> 00:59:38.360
<v Speaker 2>newly released book Navigating Liminal Realms. Will rejoin you shortly.

891
01:00:21.000 --> 01:00:26.039
<v Speaker 2>Norma and Niche's new book on Navigating Liminal Realms is

892
01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:30.400
<v Speaker 2>an excellent opportunity to work with indigenous shamantic techniques for

893
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:37.320
<v Speaker 2>releasing trauma without using plant medicine. Some people believe that

894
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:41.960
<v Speaker 2>dreams are our higher self or the soul. It's this

895
01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:45.079
<v Speaker 2>only chance or a soul gets a chance to communicate

896
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:46.440
<v Speaker 2>with us. What do you think of that? Is that

897
01:00:46.519 --> 01:00:47.800
<v Speaker 2>something you consider?

898
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Absolutely well, when you think about what is our soul?

899
01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:57.599
<v Speaker 1>You know it's like the wonderful about care of the soul.

900
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:00.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, we need to pay attention to these souls

901
01:01:00.280 --> 01:01:05.239
<v Speaker 1>ish things that it may be uncomfortable, because the soul

902
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:08.760
<v Speaker 1>is drawing us to the depths, you know, to be

903
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:11.920
<v Speaker 1>with the things that are difficult that happen, so that

904
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:16.079
<v Speaker 1>we can really feel into what they're all about, which

905
01:01:16.119 --> 01:01:18.360
<v Speaker 1>is what you can hear and what Niche is saying.

906
01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:21.440
<v Speaker 1>We tend to want to just get away from the

907
01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:25.119
<v Speaker 1>difficult things and have you know, easier time, but the

908
01:01:25.239 --> 01:01:30.519
<v Speaker 1>difficult things are there to help us heal and integrate us.

909
01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:34.559
<v Speaker 1>So Nishe, you were talking about dream signs, you know,

910
01:01:35.559 --> 01:01:41.199
<v Speaker 1>and there's so many tools that we through studying Stephen

911
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:44.760
<v Speaker 1>Leburgh and others and our own dreams, tools that you

912
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:49.440
<v Speaker 1>can grow gradually, step by step in working with your dreams.

913
01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:53.239
<v Speaker 1>And we wrote a previous book that's called Lucid Dreaming

914
01:01:53.320 --> 01:01:58.960
<v Speaker 1>Lucid Living and oh yeah, Yisha created a whole wonderful

915
01:01:59.039 --> 01:02:03.079
<v Speaker 1>oracle deck that it's a book and this oracle deck

916
01:02:03.239 --> 01:02:08.679
<v Speaker 1>of images that are a systematic approach to learning how

917
01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:12.639
<v Speaker 1>to lucid dream. So we just draw people's attention to

918
01:02:12.719 --> 01:02:16.920
<v Speaker 1>that this will manual for how to learn to lucid dream.

919
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:19.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and it's a fun nonlinear way to learn it,

920
01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:22.840
<v Speaker 3>because that's something as I was starting to teach people

921
01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:25.719
<v Speaker 3>about lucid dreaming, they would say, oh, yeah, I got

922
01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:28.320
<v Speaker 3>really into it for a couple of weeks and I

923
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:30.559
<v Speaker 3>read this book, but then I just fell off the

924
01:02:30.599 --> 01:02:33.519
<v Speaker 3>practice of doing what I needed to do to have

925
01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:37.360
<v Speaker 3>regular and sustained lucid dreams. And that can be very

926
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:40.360
<v Speaker 3>common where it's exciting at first, but then life can

927
01:02:40.400 --> 01:02:43.280
<v Speaker 3>take your focus other places. So by being able to

928
01:02:43.360 --> 01:02:46.280
<v Speaker 3>just pull a card each day and have one lesson

929
01:02:46.320 --> 01:02:49.519
<v Speaker 3>delivered to you, it's a really fun nonlinear way to

930
01:02:50.159 --> 01:02:53.880
<v Speaker 3>learn lucid dreaming and to continue your lucid dreaming practice.

931
01:02:54.199 --> 01:02:56.719
<v Speaker 3>And as you can hear, it is a skill like

932
01:02:56.840 --> 01:02:59.679
<v Speaker 3>anything else. Some people also think, oh, I can't lucid

933
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:02.880
<v Speaker 3>dream because I never have before, and some people are

934
01:03:02.920 --> 01:03:05.960
<v Speaker 3>just naturally gifted in it and I'm not. But really,

935
01:03:06.199 --> 01:03:09.480
<v Speaker 3>I believe that anybody can learn to lucid dream if

936
01:03:09.519 --> 01:03:13.639
<v Speaker 3>they take on the daytime practices of questioning if you

937
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:17.239
<v Speaker 3>could be dreaming, and then tracking your dream signs, which

938
01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:22.440
<v Speaker 3>are things that regularly occur or appear in your dreams. Objects,

939
01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:26.599
<v Speaker 3>people experiences like being by a large body of water,

940
01:03:26.880 --> 01:03:29.880
<v Speaker 3>or being in an elevator or traveling on a plane.

941
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:32.119
<v Speaker 3>These are things that are very common that a lot

942
01:03:32.199 --> 01:03:35.679
<v Speaker 3>of people have in their dream time and also experience

943
01:03:35.800 --> 01:03:38.800
<v Speaker 3>an ordinary reality. And then what you do with those

944
01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:42.480
<v Speaker 3>dream signs is anytime you notice one while you're in

945
01:03:42.599 --> 01:03:46.760
<v Speaker 3>waking reality, you ask the question could I be dreaming?

946
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:49.880
<v Speaker 3>And when you do that, you perform This is the

947
01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:53.119
<v Speaker 3>third part, which is a really key element to having

948
01:03:53.239 --> 01:03:56.280
<v Speaker 3>a lucid dream, is you perform what's called a state

949
01:03:56.400 --> 01:03:59.880
<v Speaker 3>check or a reality check, where you do an action

950
01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:02.480
<v Speaker 3>to verify if you could be dreaming or not. So

951
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:04.760
<v Speaker 3>one a lot of people know is looking at your

952
01:04:04.800 --> 01:04:07.559
<v Speaker 3>hands and flipping them back and forth. And if you

953
01:04:07.639 --> 01:04:10.440
<v Speaker 3>do that in waking reality, they'll stay your hands as

954
01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:13.360
<v Speaker 3>you're used to seeing. If do it in a dream,

955
01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:15.880
<v Speaker 3>what will happen is you'll grow an extra finger, or

956
01:04:15.920 --> 01:04:19.000
<v Speaker 3>they'll glow a different color, or they'll change into something

957
01:04:19.079 --> 01:04:22.920
<v Speaker 3>else entirely. And then, because that's so different than waking reality,

958
01:04:23.320 --> 01:04:26.320
<v Speaker 3>you then know, beyond a doubt that you are dreaming,

959
01:04:26.320 --> 01:04:29.599
<v Speaker 3>and that's when you can fully flip into lucidity. So

960
01:04:29.800 --> 01:04:32.400
<v Speaker 3>you hear how there's these fundamental things that you do

961
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:36.880
<v Speaker 3>during the day. You're performing state checks regularly throughout the

962
01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:40.320
<v Speaker 3>day and questioning could I be dreaming? And that's again

963
01:04:40.440 --> 01:04:44.679
<v Speaker 3>training your mind to do that same action in the dream,

964
01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:48.639
<v Speaker 3>because whatever we do while we're awake regularly comes into

965
01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:51.440
<v Speaker 3>our dream time. So that's the pathway that you're creating.

966
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Are you suggesting that where someone is doing a normal

967
01:04:57.199 --> 01:05:00.880
<v Speaker 2>type of dream, that you can click into to lucid

968
01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:04.679
<v Speaker 2>lucidity within the dream exactly?

969
01:05:04.960 --> 01:05:05.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's hard.

970
01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:09.000
<v Speaker 2>You're looking at the hands, and then are you asking

971
01:05:09.239 --> 01:05:12.760
<v Speaker 2>or is the subconscious or the higher self saying, Okay,

972
01:05:12.840 --> 01:05:16.239
<v Speaker 2>she's this far, We're going to click into another realm.

973
01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:19.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, let me give an example of a lucid dream

974
01:05:19.159 --> 01:05:21.480
<v Speaker 3>that I had, because that can sometimes help to ground

975
01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:27.239
<v Speaker 3>the concept. So I one of my dream signs that happens,

976
01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:31.840
<v Speaker 3>It's kind of funny, is that oftentimes in my dreams

977
01:05:32.119 --> 01:05:34.599
<v Speaker 3>I'll be going into a public bathroom and it'll be

978
01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:37.119
<v Speaker 3>really gross, and that to deal with that, I'm like,

979
01:05:37.320 --> 01:05:39.440
<v Speaker 3>I don't like this. So this is something that regularly

980
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:43.199
<v Speaker 3>happens in my dreams, and I go to public restrooms

981
01:05:43.239 --> 01:05:46.119
<v Speaker 3>all the time in waking reality. So that's a really

982
01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:49.400
<v Speaker 3>good dream sign because it's both present often in your

983
01:05:49.480 --> 01:05:53.559
<v Speaker 3>dreams and in waking reality. So I was getting up

984
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:55.920
<v Speaker 3>from bed at night, and I thought I was awake

985
01:05:56.400 --> 01:06:00.400
<v Speaker 3>and walked into the bathroom, and because I had trained myself,

986
01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:03.480
<v Speaker 3>every time I go into a bathroom, I perform a

987
01:06:03.599 --> 01:06:07.119
<v Speaker 3>state check. Even though in this state, I was sure

988
01:06:07.199 --> 01:06:09.440
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't dreaming, I was like, no, I'm just going

989
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:11.119
<v Speaker 3>to the bathroom. This is what I do in the

990
01:06:11.159 --> 01:06:14.440
<v Speaker 3>middle of the night. I stopped and I said, okay,

991
01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:17.079
<v Speaker 3>but could I be dreaming? And I looked around and

992
01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:20.599
<v Speaker 3>it seemed so normal. It seemed just like my regular

993
01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:24.840
<v Speaker 3>waking life bathroom. But because again I've been practicing, okay,

994
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:26.440
<v Speaker 3>but I always do a state check, I always do

995
01:06:26.440 --> 01:06:28.960
<v Speaker 3>a state check, I flipped my hands back and forth,

996
01:06:29.119 --> 01:06:31.920
<v Speaker 3>and sure enough I had an extra finger. And so

997
01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:35.119
<v Speaker 3>then I said, aha, okay, my god, I mean, oh

998
01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:36.719
<v Speaker 3>my god, I can't believe this is a dream, but

999
01:06:36.760 --> 01:06:39.760
<v Speaker 3>it is. And then from there, because I was lucid,

1000
01:06:39.800 --> 01:06:42.159
<v Speaker 3>I was able to then decide, Okay, now I'm going

1001
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:45.360
<v Speaker 3>to fly up out of my bathroom into the cosmos,

1002
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:48.000
<v Speaker 3>and I'm going to go have this experience with my

1003
01:06:48.079 --> 01:06:50.960
<v Speaker 3>higher self and ask them these questions that I had

1004
01:06:51.000 --> 01:06:54.079
<v Speaker 3>intended to ask when I became lucid. So that's an

1005
01:06:54.119 --> 01:06:57.280
<v Speaker 3>example of how when you're constantly doing the state checks

1006
01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:01.119
<v Speaker 3>in waking reality, then even though in a dream it

1007
01:07:01.199 --> 01:07:04.280
<v Speaker 3>might seem like, oh, this isn't a dream, by doing

1008
01:07:04.320 --> 01:07:07.039
<v Speaker 3>that action, you can verify wait a minute, this actually

1009
01:07:07.199 --> 01:07:09.159
<v Speaker 3>is a dream and flip into lucidity.

1010
01:07:10.039 --> 01:07:11.519
<v Speaker 2>Amazing is it's.

1011
01:07:11.320 --> 01:07:13.599
<v Speaker 1>Hard to wake up, you know, like that we're talking

1012
01:07:13.639 --> 01:07:17.920
<v Speaker 1>about waking up and being aware, and so many things

1013
01:07:18.039 --> 01:07:21.679
<v Speaker 1>are happening in our culture to deaden us and to

1014
01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:24.440
<v Speaker 1>keep us from waking up. So it's kind of an

1015
01:07:24.519 --> 01:07:27.920
<v Speaker 1>effort to wake up, and that's what Niche is talking about,

1016
01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:30.920
<v Speaker 1>taking it on as a practice. But we can, and

1017
01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:34.920
<v Speaker 1>we need to write, especially nowadays with all the crises

1018
01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:37.840
<v Speaker 1>that we're facing, we need to wake up so that

1019
01:07:37.880 --> 01:07:43.400
<v Speaker 1>we have as much lucid agency available to us individ

1020
01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:45.880
<v Speaker 1>rellectively fantastic.

1021
01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:49.599
<v Speaker 2>The books called Navigating Liminal Realms. My guests have been

1022
01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:54.199
<v Speaker 2>Norma Initia Burden, who is this book for? Who would

1023
01:07:54.199 --> 01:07:58.800
<v Speaker 2>you suggest We haven't even talked about people who are

1024
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:03.320
<v Speaker 2>in crises, people who have an inkling that they're just

1025
01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:05.440
<v Speaker 2>not feeling right and they don't know what's going on,

1026
01:08:05.519 --> 01:08:08.639
<v Speaker 2>but they're not physically ill. Something else is going on.

1027
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Who is the book for.

1028
01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:14.840
<v Speaker 1>Books for anybody who wants to explore their inner self

1029
01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:18.960
<v Speaker 1>and heal anybody. It's written in an accessible way. I

1030
01:08:19.000 --> 01:08:25.359
<v Speaker 1>think people of any age or level of psychological insight

1031
01:08:25.560 --> 01:08:29.079
<v Speaker 1>can read it and understand it and value it. But

1032
01:08:29.319 --> 01:08:32.439
<v Speaker 1>we also hoped that it would be used by people

1033
01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:37.840
<v Speaker 1>wanting to be psychedelic facilitators or go into a psychedelic experience,

1034
01:08:37.880 --> 01:08:41.920
<v Speaker 1>because it's a good training, a precursor training for people

1035
01:08:42.000 --> 01:08:45.279
<v Speaker 1>who want to experience psychedelics. What do you say about it?

1036
01:08:45.560 --> 01:08:48.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, my mom and

1037
01:08:48.520 --> 01:08:51.319
<v Speaker 3>I are very much in the space of the psychedelic

1038
01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:54.960
<v Speaker 3>renaissance as they're calling it, and so many people recently

1039
01:08:55.000 --> 01:08:57.760
<v Speaker 3>as they've seen this book have talked about how it

1040
01:08:57.840 --> 01:09:00.760
<v Speaker 3>is a missing link of what's out they're in the

1041
01:09:00.840 --> 01:09:05.920
<v Speaker 3>training around how to properly facilitate psychedelics, And really, what

1042
01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:08.520
<v Speaker 3>you need to know first is how to work with

1043
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:12.680
<v Speaker 3>your own self, but your own psyche, your own inner realms,

1044
01:09:12.880 --> 01:09:15.800
<v Speaker 3>before you then assume that you can lead somebody else

1045
01:09:15.880 --> 01:09:19.159
<v Speaker 3>in that experience. So really it is a training ground

1046
01:09:19.159 --> 01:09:21.239
<v Speaker 3>in that way, but also for people who are not

1047
01:09:21.399 --> 01:09:26.439
<v Speaker 3>interested in using psychedelics, it's a pathway to enter altered

1048
01:09:26.479 --> 01:09:29.359
<v Speaker 3>states of consciousness like we've been talking about all along,

1049
01:09:29.600 --> 01:09:33.680
<v Speaker 3>without the use of psychedelics and showing people that you

1050
01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:38.039
<v Speaker 3>have a birthright you have access to these non ordinary

1051
01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:41.600
<v Speaker 3>states of consciousness right within yourself. And I think that's

1052
01:09:41.720 --> 01:09:46.119
<v Speaker 3>really empowering to realize that. And so anybody that's interested

1053
01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:50.640
<v Speaker 3>in wanting to seek this deeper guidance within themselves and

1054
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:55.520
<v Speaker 3>experience what it's like to step beyond this waking, mundane reality,

1055
01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:57.399
<v Speaker 3>really this book is for them too.

1056
01:09:58.640 --> 01:10:01.279
<v Speaker 2>Do you think there are and are an Oregon? And

1057
01:10:01.399 --> 01:10:04.000
<v Speaker 2>I had to mention to our listeners that organ has

1058
01:10:04.079 --> 01:10:08.520
<v Speaker 2>passed laws that allow for therapeutic psychedelics. I forget what

1059
01:10:08.880 --> 01:10:16.319
<v Speaker 2>type of so cybon primarily, right, Yeah, And that's that's

1060
01:10:16.319 --> 01:10:19.279
<v Speaker 2>pretty that's an amazing But are there some people that

1061
01:10:19.359 --> 01:10:23.159
<v Speaker 2>are that don't need to go to the psychedelic realm,

1062
01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:27.720
<v Speaker 2>that can get the basic program without having to do

1063
01:10:27.880 --> 01:10:29.520
<v Speaker 2>the what I call the tripping.

1064
01:10:33.760 --> 01:10:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's what the book is saying, that anybody can

1065
01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:45.359
<v Speaker 1>have very lucid and important experiences without psychedelics. So we're

1066
01:10:45.399 --> 01:10:49.800
<v Speaker 1>trying to promote people getting in touch with capabilities that

1067
01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:54.520
<v Speaker 1>we have in our own psyche and that we're much

1068
01:10:55.079 --> 01:10:58.880
<v Speaker 1>vaster than we realized. You know, we only use such

1069
01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:04.039
<v Speaker 1>a small percentage of our brain capacity. So yes, you

1070
01:11:04.079 --> 01:11:09.600
<v Speaker 1>don't need to take psychedelics, and there are these things

1071
01:11:09.640 --> 01:11:13.039
<v Speaker 1>that we want people to explore within their own capacities.

1072
01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:16.000
<v Speaker 3>And what I'd add to that too is, yeah, many people,

1073
01:11:16.399 --> 01:11:20.239
<v Speaker 3>you know, like psychedelics do provide a very heightened experience,

1074
01:11:20.680 --> 01:11:24.199
<v Speaker 3>But when you do lucid dreaming or the drumming journeys,

1075
01:11:24.399 --> 01:11:27.119
<v Speaker 3>what's beautiful about it is that it's coming in your

1076
01:11:27.159 --> 01:11:32.279
<v Speaker 3>own inner pacing and you are working with your inner

1077
01:11:32.359 --> 01:11:35.560
<v Speaker 3>journey and so a lot of times it can unfold

1078
01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:38.079
<v Speaker 3>in a way that's a lot more comfortable for people

1079
01:11:38.399 --> 01:11:42.479
<v Speaker 3>and really provides this deep level of meaning making that

1080
01:11:42.600 --> 01:11:45.560
<v Speaker 3>I think is what people are also seeking when they

1081
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:48.439
<v Speaker 3>do psychedelics, is they're wanting to make meaning out of

1082
01:11:48.479 --> 01:11:50.960
<v Speaker 3>what is happening in their lives. They're wanting to understand

1083
01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:54.119
<v Speaker 3>why do you have these habitual patterns or ruts that

1084
01:11:54.159 --> 01:11:57.960
<v Speaker 3>they can't get out of. And by accessing these realms

1085
01:11:58.239 --> 01:12:02.399
<v Speaker 3>within yourself and at a pace that's appropriate for how

1086
01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:07.680
<v Speaker 3>you're naturally unfolding. Then you really do have this beautiful

1087
01:12:07.800 --> 01:12:13.039
<v Speaker 3>integration that happens constantly and that unfolds within you. So yeah,

1088
01:12:13.199 --> 01:12:16.800
<v Speaker 3>somebody is not interested in doing psychedelics, but we all,

1089
01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:21.840
<v Speaker 3>like my mom said earlier, want access to non ordinary reality.

1090
01:12:21.920 --> 01:12:24.680
<v Speaker 3>It's a part of who we are as humans. Every

1091
01:12:24.760 --> 01:12:27.640
<v Speaker 3>night we're going to sleep, That's like a essential part

1092
01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:32.399
<v Speaker 3>of being alive, right, what's built into our very code

1093
01:12:32.439 --> 01:12:36.479
<v Speaker 3>of our bodies, and so it's important and being able

1094
01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:40.479
<v Speaker 3>to know how to access those realms of lucidity is

1095
01:12:40.680 --> 01:12:43.319
<v Speaker 3>incredibly valuable. And a lot of times when people start

1096
01:12:43.399 --> 01:12:46.720
<v Speaker 3>lucid dreaming or having drumming journeys orre like, oh, actually

1097
01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:48.880
<v Speaker 3>what I thought I was seeking over here in the

1098
01:12:48.920 --> 01:12:52.760
<v Speaker 3>psychedelics is actually this, This is what I was seeking

1099
01:12:52.840 --> 01:12:54.560
<v Speaker 3>to be experience this.

1100
01:12:54.720 --> 01:12:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I love that. I think a lot of people

1101
01:12:57.560 --> 01:13:00.479
<v Speaker 2>are just disconnected and what you guys are present is

1102
01:13:00.520 --> 01:13:04.000
<v Speaker 2>a way to connect with nature, connect with earth, Gaia,

1103
01:13:04.840 --> 01:13:08.359
<v Speaker 2>and I love what you're presenting, and I think a

1104
01:13:08.439 --> 01:13:12.640
<v Speaker 2>nice way to begin considering the healing work. You know,

1105
01:13:12.880 --> 01:13:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and rather than all these technical terms that psychoanalysis presents

1106
01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>to us, it's like, what the hell's they're talking about

1107
01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:22.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I just want to be healed. You know,

1108
01:13:22.680 --> 01:13:26.119
<v Speaker 2>you're presenting it in a much more palatable way. So hey,

1109
01:13:26.159 --> 01:13:30.439
<v Speaker 2>thank you both for joining me. The book just came out.

1110
01:13:31.439 --> 01:13:32.960
<v Speaker 2>How can people get a hold of you? What's your

1111
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:36.840
<v Speaker 2>website and talk about some of your seminars.

1112
01:13:37.520 --> 01:13:42.000
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, so, we have a whole mystery school launching right

1113
01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:46.640
<v Speaker 3>now around the dream time psycho Navigation, and our website

1114
01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:51.439
<v Speaker 3>is Lucid Dreaming Lucid Living dot com and that has

1115
01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:54.199
<v Speaker 3>everything there. It has links to both of our books

1116
01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:58.640
<v Speaker 3>as well as we're launching several online courses that were

1117
01:13:58.680 --> 01:14:02.800
<v Speaker 3>really excited about around Lucid Dreaming, the drumming journeys and

1118
01:14:02.920 --> 01:14:05.600
<v Speaker 3>the shadow work that my mom does, the journey to Completion.

1119
01:14:06.119 --> 01:14:08.920
<v Speaker 3>And so within this month, the first course is going

1120
01:14:09.000 --> 01:14:11.520
<v Speaker 3>to be launched, and then many more will be rolling

1121
01:14:11.560 --> 01:14:13.560
<v Speaker 3>out over the fall. And there's a space on our

1122
01:14:13.560 --> 01:14:16.000
<v Speaker 3>website to sign up for the newsletter to find out

1123
01:14:16.039 --> 01:14:18.560
<v Speaker 3>when those are live. But we also have a free

1124
01:14:18.600 --> 01:14:22.239
<v Speaker 3>course on the website right now that is about sleep

1125
01:14:22.319 --> 01:14:24.840
<v Speaker 3>hygiene and starting to work with your dreams so you

1126
01:14:24.880 --> 01:14:27.760
<v Speaker 3>can remember your dreams, which is a huge part of

1127
01:14:27.800 --> 01:14:28.159
<v Speaker 3>what a lot.

1128
01:14:28.119 --> 01:14:32.279
<v Speaker 2>Of people say sleep hygiene. Yeah, Yeah, isn't that What

1129
01:14:32.319 --> 01:14:35.359
<v Speaker 2>does that mean? It means you're no alcohol or drugs

1130
01:14:35.399 --> 01:14:36.279
<v Speaker 2>before you go to sleep.

1131
01:14:36.960 --> 01:14:39.520
<v Speaker 3>That's good, that's good sleep hygiene. Yeah, it's all.

1132
01:14:39.399 --> 01:14:41.520
<v Speaker 2>About I don't know. I'm joking, I don't know what

1133
01:14:41.560 --> 01:14:41.760
<v Speaker 2>you were.

1134
01:14:42.039 --> 01:14:45.560
<v Speaker 3>I think that is part of it, being aware of

1135
01:14:46.039 --> 01:14:49.520
<v Speaker 3>what conditions you were entering the dream time in and

1136
01:14:49.560 --> 01:14:52.399
<v Speaker 3>what the space that you're carving out before you go

1137
01:14:52.600 --> 01:14:55.560
<v Speaker 3>to sleep is. And then also there's another part of

1138
01:14:55.600 --> 01:14:58.960
<v Speaker 3>that course that's in the morning, a morning routine that

1139
01:14:59.119 --> 01:15:02.479
<v Speaker 3>helps you to remember and capture your dreams. And that's

1140
01:15:02.560 --> 01:15:05.239
<v Speaker 3>kind of the beginning of all of this stream work

1141
01:15:05.439 --> 01:15:08.239
<v Speaker 3>is those two pieces and working with those so that

1142
01:15:08.319 --> 01:15:11.600
<v Speaker 3>you can start to connect to your dream time. And

1143
01:15:11.640 --> 01:15:15.159
<v Speaker 3>then briefly, we also have an Instagram that's the same thing,

1144
01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:18.600
<v Speaker 3>Lucid Dreaming Lucid Living. That's our handle where we post

1145
01:15:18.640 --> 01:15:21.760
<v Speaker 3>bite sized content around all of these things, and a

1146
01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:25.720
<v Speaker 3>YouTube channel that is the same name, Lucid Dreaming Lucidliving

1147
01:15:25.880 --> 01:15:28.359
<v Speaker 3>dot com. And then for my mom's work, the Journey

1148
01:15:28.439 --> 01:15:31.680
<v Speaker 3>to Completion, her website is Norman Burton dot com. And

1149
01:15:31.720 --> 01:15:35.600
<v Speaker 3>we love hearing from people, hearing questions, things that they're

1150
01:15:35.760 --> 01:15:39.279
<v Speaker 3>running into challenges, So you can contact us just through

1151
01:15:39.319 --> 01:15:42.479
<v Speaker 3>our website and we will love to get back to you.

1152
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:45.119
<v Speaker 2>I'd love to see a dreaming circle where you guys

1153
01:15:45.119 --> 01:15:49.399
<v Speaker 2>were online on zoom and everybody had their drum, you know,

1154
01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:53.159
<v Speaker 2>like one hundred photographs of everybody was a little drums.

1155
01:15:53.199 --> 01:15:53.680
<v Speaker 2>So cool.

1156
01:15:54.079 --> 01:15:57.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we're really building out community right now, which feels

1157
01:15:57.399 --> 01:16:01.199
<v Speaker 3>very exciting and powerful to have this community of dreamers

1158
01:16:01.239 --> 01:16:05.039
<v Speaker 3>of psycho navigators that can talk with one another about

1159
01:16:05.079 --> 01:16:07.680
<v Speaker 3>these things, because I think that's another thing everyone is

1160
01:16:07.720 --> 01:16:09.239
<v Speaker 3>really craving in these times.

1161
01:16:09.479 --> 01:16:12.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think you guys have a compelling message message.

1162
01:16:12.640 --> 01:16:16.439
<v Speaker 2>I really appreciate your work. All right, hey, continue success

1163
01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:17.439
<v Speaker 2>and thanks for joining me.

1164
01:16:18.079 --> 01:16:20.680
<v Speaker 1>They really appreciate your questions. Great to talk with you.

1165
01:16:20.920 --> 01:16:21.880
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much.

1166
01:16:26.960 --> 01:16:31.000
<v Speaker 2>The book contains chapters on a wide variety of the

1167
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:34.600
<v Speaker 2>topics that we presented today, but it also has case

1168
01:16:34.640 --> 01:16:39.199
<v Speaker 2>studies of people who are using these techniques and getting

1169
01:16:39.239 --> 01:16:43.319
<v Speaker 2>profound results. The very last part of the book is

1170
01:16:43.479 --> 01:16:49.640
<v Speaker 2>integrating plant medicine like psilocybin or ayahuasca or you know,

1171
01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:53.000
<v Speaker 2>even cannabis. There's a number of types of cannabis now

1172
01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:58.840
<v Speaker 2>that are very very strong and can duplicate a psychedelic experience.

1173
01:16:59.279 --> 01:17:02.880
<v Speaker 2>But as I've met many times, it's not necessary. And

1174
01:17:02.920 --> 01:17:07.680
<v Speaker 2>this is a great example. This book Navigating Liminal Realms

1175
01:17:07.760 --> 01:17:12.239
<v Speaker 2>is a great example of working in an indigenous fashion.

1176
01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:17.479
<v Speaker 2>And I think that we're forgetting that the indigenous people,

1177
01:17:17.560 --> 01:17:20.920
<v Speaker 2>the people who are listening to Gaya, the planet, the Earth,

1178
01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:27.640
<v Speaker 2>use plant medicines very sparingly, very sparingly. And if you

1179
01:17:27.680 --> 01:17:32.359
<v Speaker 2>actually read the book, normally provides an example of working

1180
01:17:32.439 --> 01:17:37.520
<v Speaker 2>with a shamanic group and after two years then they

1181
01:17:37.560 --> 01:17:42.439
<v Speaker 2>introduced some mushrooms to kind of conclude a stage of growth.

1182
01:17:43.159 --> 01:17:47.279
<v Speaker 2>But it's not used every week every month as a

1183
01:17:47.319 --> 01:17:52.039
<v Speaker 2>form of therapeutic approach. And I think again, and I

1184
01:17:52.079 --> 01:17:56.840
<v Speaker 2>think we're you know, taking it, the use of plant

1185
01:17:56.880 --> 01:17:59.560
<v Speaker 2>medicines out of context and try to speed up the

1186
01:17:59.600 --> 01:18:04.560
<v Speaker 2>results when the body very likely needs to have time

1187
01:18:04.600 --> 01:18:12.479
<v Speaker 2>to adjust to absorb the healing wisdom of the plant medicine.

1188
01:18:12.680 --> 01:18:16.199
<v Speaker 2>And then you process it, you probably go through you

1189
01:18:16.279 --> 01:18:19.520
<v Speaker 2>go through stages of awareness following the use of it.

1190
01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:22.039
<v Speaker 2>So and this is great, This is the kind of

1191
01:18:22.039 --> 01:18:24.560
<v Speaker 2>thing I'm looking for. If you're like me, you're not

1192
01:18:24.640 --> 01:18:28.880
<v Speaker 2>jumping into working with plant medicines, right away, And I've

1193
01:18:28.880 --> 01:18:32.000
<v Speaker 2>mentioned this many times. I don't know if I'll ever

1194
01:18:32.119 --> 01:18:36.239
<v Speaker 2>use ayahuasca. I don't know if I mean, I don't

1195
01:18:36.359 --> 01:18:39.319
<v Speaker 2>have a great appeal. I think for me it's going

1196
01:18:39.399 --> 01:18:43.640
<v Speaker 2>to be more like doing DMT, but microdosing so that

1197
01:18:43.720 --> 01:18:50.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm I'm not traveling in space untethered. Anyhow, I hope

1198
01:18:50.920 --> 01:18:55.520
<v Speaker 2>you enjoyed that. Again. The book is Navigating Liminal Realms,

1199
01:18:55.960 --> 01:19:01.960
<v Speaker 2>Psycho Navigating Skills for Lucid Dreaming, Trance Journey and Altered States.

1200
01:19:01.960 --> 01:19:05.640
<v Speaker 2>And the guests and the authors are Norma and Nisha

1201
01:19:06.560 --> 01:19:12.000
<v Speaker 2>n I s h A. Burton. If you're enjoying Earth

1202
01:19:12.000 --> 01:19:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Ancients Destiny and Earth Ancients Special Edition the Archives, please

1203
01:19:17.000 --> 01:19:20.359
<v Speaker 2>consider it becoming a subscriber For as little as five

1204
01:19:20.399 --> 01:19:22.479
<v Speaker 2>dollars a month, you can support the work we do

1205
01:19:22.560 --> 01:19:26.479
<v Speaker 2>here on these podcasts, and it's really appreciated. To become

1206
01:19:26.520 --> 01:19:31.560
<v Speaker 2>a subscriber. Go to Patreon dot com, forward slash Earth

1207
01:19:31.560 --> 01:19:34.880
<v Speaker 2>Ancients and subscribe. We have a ton of really cool

1208
01:19:34.920 --> 01:19:38.239
<v Speaker 2>gifts for you, including a complete digital library that you

1209
01:19:38.319 --> 01:19:42.319
<v Speaker 2>can look through and download at your leisure. We have

1210
01:19:42.359 --> 01:19:47.000
<v Speaker 2>some unpublished interviews as well as some photo galleries, and

1211
01:19:47.039 --> 01:19:49.520
<v Speaker 2>it's always great to check in with you as a

1212
01:19:49.640 --> 01:19:55.119
<v Speaker 2>subscriber again. To become a subscriber, go to Patreon dot com,

1213
01:19:55.279 --> 01:20:00.359
<v Speaker 2>Forward Slash Earth Ancients. All right, that's it for this program.

1214
01:20:00.359 --> 01:20:03.399
<v Speaker 2>I want to think my guests, Norma A, Nisha Burton

1215
01:20:04.279 --> 01:20:08.079
<v Speaker 2>coming to us from Oregon. As always, the team of

1216
01:20:08.239 --> 01:20:16.399
<v Speaker 2>Guil tour, Mark Foster and Faisal Parvet. You guys rock

1217
01:20:17.720 --> 01:20:19.399
<v Speaker 2>all right, take care of you well and we will

1218
01:20:19.479 --> 01:20:20.600
<v Speaker 2>talk to you next time.