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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.

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Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,

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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my

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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help

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other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book

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on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co

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administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

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Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly.

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Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,

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as well as the social media manager and co administrator

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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner

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in crime, Bill Thomas.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder.

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Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas, and.

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Speaker 3: We're joined today by legendary podcaster and author em William

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Phalps to talk to us about his new podcast series,

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Paper Ghosts and Crossing the Line. Matt, thank you so

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much for joining us today.

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Speaker 5: It's great to be here finally getting on Bill and

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Kristen Schow Mine Over Murder. It's been how long you

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guys been in this.

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Speaker 3: Now four years?

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Speaker 2: Four years, four years, Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Paid four paper ghosts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Paper ghost start around the same time. Yeah, so it's

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great to be on.

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Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed. I don't know how we went four years

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with that asking you to be on the show.

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Speaker 5: I'm offended.

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Speaker 2: Actually, let's get off to a good start. And now

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we live in the same state. We're both in Connecticut

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where I was.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and calf and look, I've known you for twelve

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years now something like that, Yeah, a dozen years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so we may even though we do not video this,

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I would like everyone to know that Matt and Bill

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are dressed exactly the same in wonderful matching plaid shirts,

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and that was totally a coincidence.

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Speaker 2: We're doing the hardy New Englander thing today and it's

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still cold and rainy here in Connecticut.

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Speaker 5: Spring hasn't sprung yet, that's for sure, and I'm ready

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for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. All this promises promises. It's not been

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a horrible winter. But at the same time, it would

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be nice if it started acting like April.

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Speaker 5: How it goes here in New England. All of a

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sudden you wake up and it's seventy degrees out and

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you're on your way I'm looking forward to it, but

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I have a lot of cleanup to do in my

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art after the winter we had.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, instant summer. It'll be April fifteenth and it'll suddenly

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be seventy five degrees and the Red Sox are already struggling,

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and you're off to the races for another spring in

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New England.

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Speaker 3: We are already highly pollinated down here in Virginia. So

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at least you guys are missing that part of it.

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Speaker 2: We are. They're tearing up the road in front of

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my house with incredibly noisy, dusty, dirty equipment the size

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of a two story house, but no no polling yet.

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Speaker 3: We asked Matt to come on to talk to us

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about his new podcasts, but we also wanted to start

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by asking you, Matt, tell us how you originally got

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involved in true crime.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, take us back twenty five years and walk us

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through everything that happened since then.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I'll give you the condensed version of it. I

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get asked that question a lot, and it's funny because

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it's like the day before I got into true crime,

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I didn't know I was getting into true crime. My

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passion in life is writing. I get up in the

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morning to write. That's what I love to do, and

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that makes my soul complete when I'm able to write.

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I was a journalist and had a column about music,

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and I wrote about politics. I wrote about everything anything

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I could write about. And then I met an agent

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and he's listen, if you want to really make money,

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you need to come up with a book subject. You

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need to write a book. I live close to Springfield, Massachusetts,

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and there was a trial going on in Springfield that

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I just found all these people involved in this trial

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very interesting. There was a beautiful young woman, thirty three blonde,

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who was on trial for killing seven people and there

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was whispers that she killed many more. In Northampton, the

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leads Medical Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and so I just

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started following this trial and I just thought it was

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an interesting story about people, victims, the town, the response

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to the crime, and this woman. So I started following it.

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I sold the book about it. I wrote the book,

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and I didn't know really I was writing a true

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crime book, but I was. So that book came out

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and it was very successful. Perfect Poison. The serial killer

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is Kristin Gilbert. Before that, I had met this guy,

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William Acosta, who is a Columbian guy and they call

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him the Equalizer because he worked for the CID, he

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worked for the CIA, he worked for Customs FBI, and

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he was a mole. He did all sorts of investigatory things.

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And I met him. I was going to write about him.

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We became friends, and he taught me how to investigate people. Basically,

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I spent a couple of years with him and he

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taught me my investigative skills. I was getting into the

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crime then I just didn't know it. I didn't look

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at I hope this is not long winded, but we

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look at things today with labels. We have to label everything,

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and for me, I was writing a book about people.

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I was writing a book about victims of a woman

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who had murdered them and their families and what they've

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gone through. So if that's labeled true crime, that's what

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I do. And that's what I ended up doing because

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my publisher wanted more books, so I wanted to write

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more books. That's what I did. And then I just

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TV came from that and I fell into it all

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and just ran with it.

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Speaker 2: What year did your first book come out? Perfect Poison?

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Speaker 5: I think perfect Poison came out in two thousand and two,

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twenty two years ago. I had a contract for a

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book in ninety nine called The Blue Mafia, Racism and

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Corruption Inside the NYPD. I had been working on that

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for many years with William Acosta. He was a detective

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and he had rooted out all this racism and corruption

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and we were doing a book together, and then nine

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to eleven hit and it was like, I was in

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the middle of doing this, and my editors, there's no

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way that we can say and why PD cops are bad?

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Look at the front page of every paper. So I

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abandoned that and then I moved on to the Christen

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Gilbert story Perfect Poison.

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Speaker 3: So Matt as an English teacher, I'm always interested in

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asking other writers to talk a little bit about their

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writing style, their process. Can you tell us just a

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little bit about your process. I'd love to hear.

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Speaker 5: That's a great question. My process is that, for the

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past twenty something years, I get up about four thirty

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five o'clock in the morning and I begin my day writing,

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whether I'm writing a book or a podcast, or a

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TV script or a treatment or whatever I'm doing. And

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when I'm working on a book I write. First of all.

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With the book, they're all nonfiction. So I go out

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and I do all the investigating, I do all the interviews,

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et cetera, et cetera. Same with Paper Ghosts the podcast.

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I go out, I spend a couple of months doing

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all my interviews with people who are going to tell

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this story. And then I come back and then I

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sit down and I get up every morning I start

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to write out everything and go through the interviews. And

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it's the same process for a book. Generally, when I'm

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writing a book, I don't start on page one. It's

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a dark and stormy night. Sometimes I start at the end.

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It all depends on the information and how I need

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to understand it. The process is I work on ten, twelve, fifteen,

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sometimes twenty pages in a day, and the next day

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I edit them, and then I work on the next

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twenty and then I edit those, and it's a process

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that I just keep going over and over, and then

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when I'm done with the manuscript, I probably rewrite a

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book probably twenty times before I'm happy with it. I

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just love that process, I really do. It really makes me.

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I think. One of the things I love most about

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writing is that it takes me. It's almost like I'm

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not in the world, out of the world. The world

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world we live in today is a good world to

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get out of sometimes, and writing does that for me.

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I just I'm in the moment. I'm zeroed in on

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what I'm doing completely. I'm in, as they call the flow.

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There's a book called The Flow. I'm in the flow

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time and space is gone. And I like that. I

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like that world.

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Speaker 2: So when you start early in the morning, Matt, then

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is there a time of day you'll end or do

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you write until you collapsed from exhaustion.

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Speaker 5: That's a good question, Bill. You can be creative for

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probably four or five hours a day tops. So I

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work that creative time and then I take a break

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or whatever, and then I go into editing mode or

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I do TV stuff. I meet I have a lot

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of meetings with producers, etc. Production companies. I work on treatments.

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I'm working on a sizzle reel right now for a

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show that I'm getting ready to pitch. So I switch

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gears from the writer to the TV slash, a podcast producer,

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et cetera. In the afternoon and work stuff out with

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podcasting more than books, especially with paper Ghosts. Paper ghost

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takes me over a year to do, and I have

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about four other people working on it with me. For

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a lot of that time, there's a lot of miscellaneous

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stuff you have to do for a limited series, podcast

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and promotion, et cetera. So yeah, my five hours are writing,

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four hours of writing, and then it's another five, six, seven,

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sometimes eight hours of whatever TV podcasting work.

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Speaker 3: Since you started telling us a little bit about paper ghosts,

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let's carry that through. Tell us a little bit about

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how you got started with paper ghosts and what is

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the main concepts behind paper ghosts.

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Speaker 5: So a paper ghost is a missing person poster on

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a telephone poll. It's a paper ghost because we don't

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know where that person is. So I met a producer

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on Doctor Oz, Lauren Bright Pacio and Doctor Oz and

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Happy Face's daughter, Melissa Moore, she also worked on the show.

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I had this big interview schedule they were going to

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do almost the complete hour on my book that was

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coming out, and the day before the interview, the day before,

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they pulled the plug on it. And it was because

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of Melissa. She's the one responsible for that. So the

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plug got pulled on that. My publisher had even gone

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out I think with an additional five thousand copies of

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the book because of Doctor Oz. Because at the time

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Doctor Oz was four o'clock in the afternoon. It was

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a big show, and at the time you could sell

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books on TV. You can anymore, but at the time

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you could. So I met Lauren, she was a producer

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on that show. She felt really bad for me. She

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was out of her hands. So we became friends, and

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she goes, listen, I know these people at iHeart they're

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starting a podcast division. You'd be perfect, So I want

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to make an introduction. So Lauren introduced me to Will Pearson,

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He's the president at iHeart podcasting division, and I had

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a meeting with them, and Paper ghost was born. I

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certainly had the material, as I do now, I have

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more material than it will ever use in my lifetime.

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And there was no other case that was going to

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be the first season of paper Ghosts than the four

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missing girls from the town that I lived in a

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neighboring town, and all the families I knew very well.

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One of the girls I even had gone to school with.

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And so I had been investigating those cases for twelve

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years and I had a lot of information and so

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there was never going to be any other case but

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that for season one, and so that's how that was born.

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When crossing the Line with em William Phelps just came

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out of that. They wanted me to do a weekly

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and ongoing as your show is, but just came from that.

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And also I have White Eagle. White Eagle is a

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sixth part limited series about the largest cash heist in

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the US at the time, which took place in West Harford,

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Connecticut in nineteen eighty three. Victor Herrena, he spent the

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longest time on the FBI's top ten Most Wanted. Very

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proud of that White Eagle. That's a really great six

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part limited series.

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Speaker 3: We would definitely be remiss if we didn't mention Dark

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Minds because we do have such a strong connection to

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Dark Minds. You guys did decide to cover the Colonial

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Parkway murders, which we're very thankful for. So can you

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tell us a little bit about Dark Minds for anybody

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who may not be familiar with it, And then how

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did Colonial Parkway murders come onto your radar and what

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made you go, you know what, let's do this on

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Dark Minds. It sounds great.

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Speaker 5: Dark Minds, I think was a show before its time

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on Investigation Discovery. The timing was off. We did three seasons.

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I did twenty four episodes of the show. Colonial Parkway

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was one, but pitch that show as as Silence of

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the Lambs meets Catch Me if you Can. That show

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was me out in the field investigating a new unsolved

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serial killer case each week. And it was on, as

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I said, Investigation Discovery, and I had a forensic psychologist,

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John Kelly, and I also had a serial killer, an

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anonymous serial killer on the phone who would give me

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direction his insight a quarterback does at an NFL game

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the next quarterback.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an interesting conceit. I remember enjoying it.

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Speaker 5: And for the three seasons that Dark Minds was on,

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he was anonymous, his voice was disguised, and he had

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a nickname on the show, Raven, which I did not

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give him. The president of ID did. Many people thought

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he was fake. He was a trumped up reality TV

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thing and everything like that. When the show ended, I

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wrote a book, Dangerous Ground my friendship in quotes with

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a serial killer, and the entire time it was Keith

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Jesperson happy face killer. He was Raven. He was the

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guy on the show, and we locked onto the Colonial

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Parkway murders. To be perfectly frank and honest with you,

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because at the time, there were probably thirty or forty

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unsolved serial killer cases in the country that were connected,

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that felt connected, like these are cases that you are connected,

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there's probably a serial killer working here, and Colonial Parkway

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showed up on my radar because I had done research

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on these cases for many years and I knew that

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there was probably a serial killer, might be a serial

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killer working on the Colonial Parkway. I wasn't convinced and

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I still am not convinced today that all these cases

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are connected, the ones we covered on the show. I'm

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just not convinced to that. And yeah, that's how I

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met Bill, That's how I ended up doing the Colonial Parkway.

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It was one of my I think it was one

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of my if I can have a favorite out there

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filming this stuff, it was one of the ones I

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remember most. I remember It's funny. Every once in a

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while it hit me those president's heads in Williams Park, right.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and exactly what you're talking about.

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Speaker 5: What was bizarre about them was it they were the

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weeds were overgrown, it was closed, yep, and it was

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just so eerie. It was park President's Park. It was

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park bizarre and that always pops in my mind every

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once in a while. Well, no, I was there for

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the week filming.

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Speaker 2: Now help us out, and remember we have people listening

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all over the world. I have no idea what the

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two of you were talking about. What is President's Park

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in Williamsburg.

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Speaker 3: President's Park was a very It's an interesting conceit. I

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will give it that. It was this idea that there

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would be a park and in the park there would

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be busts, huge busts of all of the president's head

304
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and shoulders, bus the presidents, and they were all just

305
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set around this beautiful park land area. Yeah. But unfortunately

306
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the President's Park was not as popular as I think

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the planners were hoping it would be. I think they

308
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were picturing it as like a place where people could

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go on field trips and you can learn lots of

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instructive things about the president. But ultimately what happened is

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the park closed and all it was forty three busts

312
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of the president's up to that point. I think Obama

313
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was the last one those crumbling President's heads are sitting

314
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out in a field way out beyond where I live,

315
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and they're just crumbling to dust. I have never understood.

316
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We are all growing up around them.

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Speaker 2: In the same location where they were originally placed.

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Speaker 3: Now they were moved away from the original location, and

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they were just dumped out in this field. And I've

320
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never understood why they couldn't at least decide, okay, let's

321
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take the Abraham Lincoln, hadn't put it the Lincoln Lincoln

322
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sites and things like that. I don't know why JFK's

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head didn't go to the JFK President's Library or something

324
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like that. They're just like crumbling to dust out there

325
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in a field with weeds growing up all around them

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just like they.

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Speaker 2: Are they standing vertically or are they lying on their

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sides like a like junked cars.

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Speaker 3: I haven't been out there. There is one day a

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year or two days a year where you can actually

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apply to go out there to look at it and

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take photos. I haven't gone. Actually have friends who do.

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Speaker 5: When we were filming, they were still in the.

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Speaker 3: Park where they were still in the park, okay.

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Speaker 5: Because we had to walk through the gate to get

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in there, like the turnstile and it was it felt

337
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like when you were there, it felt like Armageddon had

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happened really in this place had been one of the places,

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and because the weeds and everything, it was just very eerie.

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Speaker 3: It was really creepy.

341
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Speaker 2: I've ever been there. This is very and I just recall.

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Speaker 5: That about filming because we did a lot of filming

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just driving up and down the Colonial Parkway, b roll

344
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that sort of thing. Yeah, that's what I remember. I remember,

345
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and I also remember Steve. Steve've helped me out the

346
00:18:02,759 --> 00:18:08,839
detective Steve he's he now on that that trumped up

347
00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:13,079
show that called Justice Ship. Yeah, that that that that

348
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,519
made up whatever. I won't get into that here. I

349
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won't settle that.

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Speaker 2: I think you see, I think he just did. Steve.

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Speaker 5: Steve is a great guy guy. Steve was a great guy.

352
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I remember interviewing him at one of the I think

353
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it was where your sister Bill was where they were found.

354
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Steve and I were right there and that's where I

355
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interviewed him. And just a great guy, just a great guy.

356
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He knew a lot about the case and it was

357
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one of my favorite gigs for that series, Colonial Parkway.

358
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On One of the reasons is because I think it

359
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,279
can be solved. A lot of the cases can be solved.

360
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And a lot of times when I would go to

361
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a city that wasn't the case, I'm like, I'd be

362
00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:56,599
there and I'd be like, Yeah, these cases are not

363
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going to be solved. It this is not happening. When

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I ran into a case, and I might say that

365
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we did what was called at the time the original Nightstalker,

366
00:19:05,279 --> 00:19:08,000
we did that as well, and which became a Golden

367
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,160
State Killer. Yeah, so we A lot of times I

368
00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:13,839
just say, that's just there's not enough information. But with

369
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,920
Colonial Parkway, there is enough information to put that together ourselves.

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00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 2: So we've always been saying that, and of course now

371
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we're seeing significant developments. They've identified one offender. We know

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he's linked to one of the pairs, Robin Edwards and

373
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David Nobling, and the FBI won't admit this publicly, and

374
00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,240
the FBI and the Virginia State Police stumbled all over

375
00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:42,279
themselves January eighth, twenty twenty four announcing the identification of

376
00:19:42,319 --> 00:19:45,839
this suspect, but they failed to mention he's also suspect

377
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,359
number one in the disappearance of Keith coll and Cassandra Haley.

378
00:19:50,079 --> 00:19:54,039
It's just ludicrous that they failed to mention this publicly.

379
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,599
So it's up to the rest of us that know

380
00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,559
the case to call them out on their trans questions.

381
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,119
Cover up whatever you want to be doing.

382
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Speaker 5: The FBI has their own way of doing things. They

383
00:20:05,799 --> 00:20:09,279
just I don't like dealing with FBI because there's just

384
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,480
a lot of there's a lot of silence, there's a

385
00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:16,759
lot of misinformation. They don't tell you anything. You got

386
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,119
free reports from them, and it takes forever. I'd rather

387
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,240
deal with the detective who's been on it for twenty years,

388
00:20:24,279 --> 00:20:27,839
ten years. I have this week coming up. I have

389
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,519
a detective from the LAPD Cold case detective Rachel Evans,

390
00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:36,839
who solved two cases that started before she was even

391
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,599
born sixty years those cases were sitting in the cold

392
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:46,400
case unit the entire time. She comes on board, and

393
00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:51,079
the three men in the cold case unit throw the

394
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,480
case at her and say good luck, and they didn't

395
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,440
even want her there. And what does she do. She

396
00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:58,039
solves them And they could have been solved at any time.

397
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,400
The answers were right there had changed. All she did

398
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,839
was do the work. So my point is, I like

399
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,039
to deal with those types of detectives Laurie Howard. Detective

400
00:21:10,079 --> 00:21:13,519
Laurie Howard, who you've heard throughout season four now of

401
00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:16,240
Paper Ghosts, and you're gonna hear a lot more from

402
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,440
in the final two episodes of The Ozarks. She and

403
00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,559
I became great friends. She's just she is just an

404
00:21:23,599 --> 00:21:25,240
incredible investigator.

405
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Speaker 2: I comes across really well in the podcast series, and

406
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,359
she's really smart. And she's also very grounded. And the

407
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,039
two of you clearly very grounded. You too, clearly developed

408
00:21:36,039 --> 00:21:38,920
a very strong rapport, very grounded.

409
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Speaker 5: And here's a woman who kept Shauna Garber's box of

410
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,599
bones under her desk then took them home. Here's someone

411
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:53,039
who literally extracted Shawna Garber's molars out of the back

412
00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:55,960
of her skull on our kitchen table because the department

413
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,000
didn't have the money to do it, wouldn't give her

414
00:21:58,079 --> 00:22:01,599
the money. Extracted those to get them tested to see

415
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,319
if there was a match anywhere. Here's a woman who

416
00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:07,240
snuck into a hospital in the middle of the night

417
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,599
with Sewa garber skull to take scans of it in

418
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,079
order to send those scans to Canada because she couldn't

419
00:22:15,079 --> 00:22:17,480
cross the border, of course with a box of bones.

420
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,200
So they could get a bust on a lot of

421
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,599
this stuff she did without even getting paid on her

422
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,119
own time. Those are the people I like to deal

423
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,480
with when I'm doing my work, the dedicated people who

424
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,000
care about humanity, who are invested in humanity, and who

425
00:22:33,039 --> 00:22:39,240
are invested in victims' families, getting victims family's answers. That's

426
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:43,400
my goal now, Kristen Bill. My goal now is to

427
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:47,279
gather answers for victim's families who just aren't getting them.

428
00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:50,519
Whether the answer, I don't solve cases. I say it

429
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:53,960
all the time, and whatever I do, I don't solve cases.

430
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,200
I look for information. I dig up information, and I

431
00:22:57,279 --> 00:22:59,480
hand it over to the people who can do something

432
00:22:59,559 --> 00:23:01,640
with it, and I also hand it over to the family.

433
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:02,480
So that's what I do.

434
00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:06,559
Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back

435
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:18,720
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at

436
00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:19,640
mindover Murder.

437
00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:23,519
Speaker 3: I want to make sure we also talk about Crossing

438
00:23:23,599 --> 00:23:28,440
the Line, which is your other podcast among your many projects,

439
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,599
for our listeners who may be unaware. Talk to us

440
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,880
a little bit about crossing the Line and the impetus

441
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,640
for setting up that podcast.

442
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 5: So crossing the Line with Emilliam Phelps is a weekly

443
00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:45,920
show half hour forty five minute episodes where I go

444
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,519
through a case each week, one case per week. Sometimes

445
00:23:50,559 --> 00:23:52,839
I'll do a two to three parter. Are very rare.

446
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,039
It's Paper Ghosts weekly, but it's more personal. I get

447
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,799
personally invested in it, speak my mind in this. Whereas

448
00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:04,200
Paper goes some more of the journalists, I keep the

449
00:24:04,519 --> 00:24:10,079
journalistic this. I don't hold anything back. If something upsets me.

450
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,880
A guy who did sixteen years for a murder when

451
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,240
he was supposed to do forty, they let him out

452
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,039
and he kills five more people. I get upset about that.

453
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,119
I get really enraged by that. That pisses me off

454
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,839
because we had him, we had him, and we let

455
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,240
him go right. And there's a lot of these guys

456
00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:32,400
out there. And I started this. I took a hiatus,

457
00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:36,039
a year hiatus with Crossing the Line because I wanted

458
00:24:36,039 --> 00:24:39,119
to A. I was busy with Paper Ghosts, very busy,

459
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,240
and B I wanted to think about the show a

460
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:45,240
little bit more, rebranded a little bit, and begin it

461
00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:48,880
again anew, which I did seven eight weeks ago. The

462
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,680
first episode in this new incarnation, if you will, of

463
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,880
crossing the Line, it's called The Wife the serial Killer

464
00:24:56,079 --> 00:24:59,599
and all the Money, and it's about the Long Island

465
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:06,079
series killer's wife who was gifted, i'll say, gifted a

466
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,640
seven figures a million dollars from NBC Universal so a

467
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,400
production company could follow her while her husband, the alleged

468
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,400
Long Island's serial killer, Rex Huerman, goes through the process

469
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,200
of trial, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, now I have

470
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,839
a big problem with this bill would have a bigger problem.

471
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,480
He's I'm a victim's family member. Myself, my sister in

472
00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:33,039
law was pregnant and murdered. I don't speak from that here.

473
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,599
I speak as someone who is disgusted by this because

474
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,799
what this does is and look I said in the episode,

475
00:25:41,839 --> 00:25:45,200
I possibly be slitting my own throat to keep it

476
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,480
in the true crime vein for producing TV in the future.

477
00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:50,839
But I don't give a shit. I really don't care,

478
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:59,319
because you can't take a serial killer's wife and give

479
00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:01,839
that person and a million dollars and throw them up

480
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,079
on TV and say we'll tell us about your life,

481
00:26:05,559 --> 00:26:10,519
because what you're doing is you're giving that serial killer

482
00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:15,960
the stage exactly, and you're saying that we're gonna reward

483
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,440
the people in your life because the son of Sam

484
00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:22,599
Law won't allow us to give you any money. So

485
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,839
we're gonna reward that family members, and we're gonna we're

486
00:26:27,839 --> 00:26:30,200
gonna put them on TV so they can just tell

487
00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:34,279
us they lived with a monster and they didn't know it. Okay,

488
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,759
And my whole thing in this episode is this, they

489
00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:40,400
didn't hand over a million dollars for nothing. I think

490
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,279
the line I used in the show is they didn't

491
00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:44,799
hand her a million dollars to talk about gardening with

492
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,440
him and going out to outback with him. She had

493
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,640
to bring something to the table. I've produced TV, bill

494
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,920
has been involved. You have to bring something to the

495
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,440
table before you get money. Okay, you can't just say

496
00:26:58,799 --> 00:27:01,960
I'm the wife of the serial killer. That doesn't That's

497
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,720
not how that works. So not only not it taints

498
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,960
all the information she might have she might give to

499
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,519
the FBI whatever. So this is so many things wrong

500
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:13,319
with this. Right, no victims family members will appear on

501
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,880
that show. I guarantee it. They're pissed, and they should.

502
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: Be, Yeah, they should be outraged. The whole thing is

503
00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:23,680
so sleazy, And I don't have any personal agenda with

504
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,319
ASA ellerop is her name, and on some level you

505
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,079
could make a case that she is a victim. But

506
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:32,480
does she and I.

507
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 5: Do in the episode, I absolutely do.

508
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: But she doesn't deserve a million dollars. And what they're

509
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,240
paying for is access, and it's I think it's disgusting

510
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,039
what they be.

511
00:27:43,519 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 5: But here's the thing. When that case broke, the media,

512
00:27:46,759 --> 00:27:53,039
of course descends upon a Massapequa park and these people

513
00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:55,599
are living on the porch, basically cooking on the porch

514
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,680
because their house has been torn apart, the yard's been

515
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,880
torn apart, and they're shunning the media. She is yelling,

516
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,759
screaming f bombs at the media. Stay away from me,

517
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,000
Stay away, Stay away. Fast forward six months, million dollars

518
00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:11,279
now come on bull Access. And I think someone pointed

519
00:28:11,279 --> 00:28:13,319
out to me that in one of the reviews of

520
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:17,079
that episode, someone attacked me by saying, how dare you

521
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,400
go after her? She has cancer and she lost everything.

522
00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:24,400
She needs this money. Look, I'm sorry, she has cancer.

523
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,920
Sorry she lost everything. Doesn't change anything for me, doesn't

524
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,119
change my opinion one bit about this is bad for

525
00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:35,480
true crime as a genre, it's bad for victims, it's

526
00:28:35,599 --> 00:28:40,359
bad for future TV programs in the genre. So is

527
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,279
at the bar. Now that's the bar that's set. Now

528
00:28:43,319 --> 00:28:46,039
we have to get as a producer myself, I have

529
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,519
to get a serial killer's family members now to talk

530
00:28:49,759 --> 00:28:53,119
or so. As you can see, I'm heated up again

531
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,640
all over about this. Now it's it's got myself worked

532
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:57,079
up again.

533
00:28:57,279 --> 00:29:01,079
Speaker 2: It's it is disgusting and all. So they've set the

534
00:29:01,119 --> 00:29:04,759
bar with this ridiculous figure that they're going to pay

535
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,680
her a million dollars to have access to her story.

536
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:10,799
And as you said, people don't want to just hear

537
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,480
about the fact that she might be an avid gardener.

538
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:15,480
And as far as I know, you made that up,

539
00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:18,440
it doesn't matter. Yeah, but they that's not what they

540
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:19,640
really want to hear about.

541
00:29:20,119 --> 00:29:23,039
Speaker 5: No, hell no, hell no. And I'll say this, I

542
00:29:23,079 --> 00:29:24,960
didn't get it in the show because it happened after

543
00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:28,799
I recorded. Recently, she's come out within the past couple

544
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:30,960
of weeks and said this, I want to wait till

545
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,960
all the facts are out before I make a judgment

546
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,119
against them.

547
00:29:34,559 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 3: Oh I saw that quote.

548
00:29:35,759 --> 00:29:41,359
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, so now the tune is different. Why because

549
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,200
she's going on TV with the story it has to

550
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,440
be so yeah, so crossing the line answer your question.

551
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: Kristen, you mean that wasn't the answer.

552
00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:57,359
Speaker 5: Again, I go through a case and I do talk

553
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,920
about the case from a start to finish, and sometimes

554
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,839
I have guests. This week, I have a detective, and

555
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,720
then I at the end, when we get to the

556
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,839
trial part of it all, or the justice part of

557
00:30:07,839 --> 00:30:09,519
it all, that's when I start to start to I

558
00:30:09,559 --> 00:30:13,119
call people out. Look, I'm calling people out for who

559
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,039
they are. If you're a scumbag, I'm going to call

560
00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:16,920
you a scumbag on the show. But if you're a

561
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,640
piece of shit, I'm going to call you that. If

562
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,880
you if you stalk little boys and you've you've already

563
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,160
molested two and spent time in jail and you almost

564
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,200
killed one and they let you out again, I'm going

565
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,960
to attack the judge. I'm going to attack the parole board.

566
00:30:32,079 --> 00:30:33,480
That's what I'm going to do on that show.

567
00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: So you find yourself you're able to remain dispassionate and

568
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,960
keep your remove and emotions in check.

569
00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

570
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,759
Speaker 2: Now, the origin of the name of the show. You

571
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,480
talked about paper Ghosts, which is a very interesting title.

572
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,759
Where does the name crossing the Line come from?

573
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 5: It's the best titles I think have a double meaning.

574
00:30:58,759 --> 00:31:02,000
So crossing the line is crossing the crime scene line,

575
00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:05,200
you're crossing it into You're going into that Terrea. The

576
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:07,519
other thing is, I'm going to cross the line and

577
00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:09,400
I'm going to call you a ship bag. If you're

578
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,839
a ship bag, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna call

579
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,039
out a judge. I'm going to name that judge. I'm

580
00:31:15,079 --> 00:31:17,279
going to call out a parole board. I'm going to

581
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,599
name those people on the parole board if they let

582
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,799
a guy out after twenty years when he sentenced to

583
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,119
forty and he kills two more people. I did an

584
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,079
episode where I grew up in verning, Connecticut and as

585
00:31:29,119 --> 00:31:31,960
a middle schooler eighth grade, I had a girlfriend we

586
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,799
weren't dating at the time, who was on my bus.

587
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,599
She didn't get on the bus. One morning, kid at

588
00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:40,000
the bus stop gets on the bus. No one liked

589
00:31:40,039 --> 00:31:43,000
this kid. There was something weird about him. Long story short,

590
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,680
he strangled her in the woods behind the bus stop.

591
00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,319
That oh my, oh, my god. I was thinking about

592
00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:51,680
this and talking to somebody, and I've just been around

593
00:31:51,759 --> 00:31:54,039
murder all my life, murder surround.

594
00:31:54,359 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thirteen, fourteen years old at this, Yeah.

595
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,079
Speaker 3: My god, so what happened to that kid?

596
00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:06,799
Speaker 5: Hold on, they arrest him. He gets twenty five years

597
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,160
because he was seventeen at the time. He gets twenty

598
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,759
five years. He's out. In seventeen, he goes down to

599
00:32:12,839 --> 00:32:16,160
North Carolina, moves down there. He beats his girlfriend the

600
00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:19,559
death down there with one of the spindles from the

601
00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:24,319
baby crib in front of the baby, beats her to death.

602
00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:27,960
He gets like thirty eight years for that. And the

603
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:32,039
day my show aired. The day it aired, pro board

604
00:32:32,119 --> 00:32:37,599
let him out. He's out again. He killed two women brutally,

605
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,440
and that mother is out walking the street right now.

606
00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:42,279
Speaker 2: Wow.

607
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:46,359
Speaker 5: So I crossed the line when I start to call

608
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,200
out these parole boards and judges and say, look, man,

609
00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:53,200
we're not asking you to reinvent law. We're not asking

610
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,400
you to go to the Supreme Court and argue something.

611
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,640
We're just saying no, say no.

612
00:32:58,559 --> 00:33:02,359
Speaker 2: And enforce the law that we asked you to enforce.

613
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 5: That's it, that's all you got to do. All you

614
00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:09,160
got to do is say you killed two women. We're

615
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:09,839
not letting you out.

616
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no rehab for that guy. That guy can't

617
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,920
be put back that on the street. No.

618
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,839
Speaker 5: So this is the thesis of the title, if you will, yeah, yeah,

619
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:24,799
And those stories need to be told. They need to

620
00:33:24,799 --> 00:33:28,039
be told. I did a two parter called Bumble Death

621
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,440
and Bumble is a is a dating app. If you

622
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,480
don't know bill dating app'.

623
00:33:33,359 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: Met my partner seventeen years ago on a dating app.

624
00:33:37,599 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 5: Okay, so Bumble is a dating app. Then, and so

625
00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:45,039
this woman in Bridgeport, Connecticut, a black woman meets a

626
00:33:45,119 --> 00:33:48,559
guy and they correspond for a couple of weeks, and

627
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,319
long story short, he comes over for a date. She

628
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:52,160
winds up dead.

629
00:33:52,599 --> 00:33:54,519
Speaker 2: I remember reading about this story.

630
00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, she winds up dead at the same time, the

631
00:33:57,759 --> 00:34:01,000
same night, maybe two miles away, other black women goes

632
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:06,559
on a date. She winds up dead. The Bridgeport police,

633
00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:09,039
who I am not going to say investigated because they

634
00:34:09,039 --> 00:34:11,440
didn't do any investigation. And I'm not saying these people

635
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,639
were murdered, but there are really strange circumstances around these debts.

636
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,559
Speaker 2: And you have two women dying roughly.

637
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 5: Two black women dying within two miles of each other.

638
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,519
Speaker 2: It's very strange. Yeah.

639
00:34:26,599 --> 00:34:29,639
Speaker 5: The Bridgeport police, the detectives who look at both cases,

640
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,199
don't even tell the families. The families have no idea

641
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,880
their people have died. Days go by, they have to

642
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,639
investigate themselves, and actually they don't find out until they

643
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:47,320
call the Medical Examiner's office in Farmington, Connecticut and say,

644
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:51,639
is my daughter there? This is her name? Yeah, we

645
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:55,679
got her. The police never told them, never made contact

646
00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,000
with the families. There is just so much racism involvend

647
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:03,559
than this, and there's so much not These people don't matter.

648
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, the lack of piring is evident, right, the lack.

649
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 5: Of humanity and the lack people today place so little

650
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,000
value on human life. It's just astonishing to me. It's

651
00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:19,559
remarkable to me, and some of those people, unfortunately are

652
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:23,559
in law enforcement and judges and etc. That enrages me.

653
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:25,320
And I'm going to report on it when I can.

654
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,639
Speaker 3: Matt, you were referenced already that your sister in law

655
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,639
was murdered. You did just mention. Of course, it feels

656
00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:35,320
like you've been around crime your whole entire life. How

657
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,679
much of an impact do you think your sister in

658
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,480
law's murder had on your future in the business? Does

659
00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:45,400
that inform the way that you do things? Now? How

660
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:46,679
impactful would you say it is?

661
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 5: That's a good question. It wasn't the impetus for me

662
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,519
to get into this. That wasn't the thing. However, it

663
00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:57,840
did allow me to walk into Bill Thomas's house twelve

664
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,519
years ago with my Dark Minds crew and sit in

665
00:36:00,559 --> 00:36:03,079
front of Bill and have a common bond that I

666
00:36:03,119 --> 00:36:07,400
could relate to him in a way that other people can't.

667
00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:09,840
I know what it's like to lose a family member.

668
00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:13,199
It gave me that kind of common bond that I

669
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,519
could bring to my work, definitely, because I've seen what

670
00:36:16,559 --> 00:36:19,199
it's done to my family. So it helped me in

671
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,320
that respect for sure.

672
00:36:21,039 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: The most striking thing about working on Dark Minds with

673
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,719
you was how much furniture the crew moved around.

674
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 5: They removed furniture around Reward, North America.

675
00:36:33,079 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: Trust me, they wanted certain angles and they wanted certain

676
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,519
light and they ended up like moving every stick of furniture.

677
00:36:41,119 --> 00:36:43,559
Speaker 5: In I remember that took a while.

678
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, take a while, which gave us plenty of

679
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,480
time to talk and get to know each other even

680
00:36:48,519 --> 00:36:50,079
before the cameras were going.

681
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,199
Speaker 5: So yeah, it's definitely helped me in that respect. Sure.

682
00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:55,639
Speaker 3: And was her murder ever solved?

683
00:36:56,599 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 5: The call last summer that is basically solved, but there's

684
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,840
problems with the evidence and stuff. So they're hoping they

685
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,840
can get these two people who did it. They're still around.

686
00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:13,880
They're optimistic that they can develop the evidence more. Unfortunately,

687
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,400
some of the evidence was contaminated at the crime scene.

688
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:21,480
It happens. There's no corruption, there's no nefarious activity. Stuff

689
00:37:21,519 --> 00:37:25,039
happens at crime scenes. Stuff gets contaminated. So that's what happened.

690
00:37:25,079 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things I've said to the investigators

691
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,960
in the Colonial Parkway murders, my sister's case, is that

692
00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:34,719
I remind the investigators from time to time that family

693
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,880
members are looking for answers. We all understand that we

694
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:43,159
may not get the perfect answer, which is so and

695
00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:46,599
so has been identified as the offender. They're going to

696
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:48,719
be indicted, They're going to be tried, they're going to

697
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,559
be convicted. There's going to be appeals, but ultimately this

698
00:37:51,599 --> 00:37:54,320
person is going to be punished. When you're into a

699
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,800
case for as long as we are, and now I'm

700
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,440
thinking about your sister in law's case that stretches back

701
00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:04,039
a number of yours. Now, you're looking for answers more

702
00:38:04,119 --> 00:38:07,280
than anything else. You understand that it might not be

703
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:10,599
a perfect situation. And this is one of the things

704
00:38:10,639 --> 00:38:14,280
I'm trying to remind our investigators in the Colonial Parkway

705
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:18,280
case is that we're looking for answers. The offender that's

706
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,920
been identified just recently in the Colonial Parkway murders died

707
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,719
in twenty seventeen. He's never going to be tried, he's

708
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,280
never going to be convicted. But actually having those answers

709
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,000
is incredibly helpful. Do you feel the same way. Would

710
00:38:32,039 --> 00:38:35,119
it be of some comfort to you to know who

711
00:38:35,159 --> 00:38:37,800
the offenders are or in this case, the offenders are

712
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:38,440
still around.

713
00:38:39,519 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know who they are. It would be more

714
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,400
comforting to my niece and nephews who lost their mother

715
00:38:45,519 --> 00:38:48,800
and then my brother subsequently died like six years after

716
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,239
her at forty seven. So it would be comforting to

717
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,719
them to just be able to say, Okay, I'm done

718
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,239
with this, now this is done, Now they have the

719
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,679
people whatever. And I meet up with this paper ghosts

720
00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:02,039
a lot, And I say this in a lot of

721
00:39:02,079 --> 00:39:05,360
the seasons that families just want to be heard. They

722
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,519
want to be heard, they want to know that they're

723
00:39:07,559 --> 00:39:12,079
being heard. And there's great police all over this country

724
00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:15,360
who do that job very well. We mentioned Laurie Howard,

725
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,800
we mentioned I mentioned Rachel Evans from the LAPD Detective

726
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,599
Rachel Evans. So I've met scores of detectives and police

727
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:27,920
who do that very well because they know it's one

728
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,719
of the most important parts of their job is to

729
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,880
make sure that the family is being heard.

730
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,519
Speaker 3: So, Matt, what's next for you? In terms of projects?

731
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:41,199
It looks like you always have a little something percolating

732
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,639
in the background. Can you tell us any of what

733
00:39:43,679 --> 00:39:45,639
you're currently working on or are we going to keep

734
00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:46,679
that on the dal for now?

735
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 5: No, I'm working on I have a book project. I

736
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,000
think I haven't written a book in about three years,

737
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,280
and that was the first time in maybe twenty two

738
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,039
years I hadn't worked stopped working on books. So I'm

739
00:39:58,039 --> 00:40:00,440
getting Jones in to work on a book that is

740
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,440
definitely coming. Crossing the Line is going to continue now

741
00:40:03,559 --> 00:40:05,239
for I think the next year. I'm going to do

742
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:08,119
week to week for the next year, I hope to do.

743
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,000
There's more paper Ghosts will be coming. And I'm working

744
00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:14,960
on a project that has nothing to do with crime

745
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:18,119
and actually has to do with comedy. It's a television project,

746
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:21,599
which is I like the idea of that. Every once

747
00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:23,519
in a while, I pop in a different type of

748
00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:26,639
genre with TV when I pitch TV and I'm hoping

749
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:29,480
that goes somewhere. Actually, I'm going to be filming a

750
00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:34,000
Hulu series this month, a three part Hulu series. Yeah,

751
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:34,639
that's right.

752
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 2: On true crime, comedy or an intersection of the two.

753
00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:43,199
Speaker 5: Gardening gardening A gardening show. No, this is true crime.

754
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:44,679
Build a Hulu thing is true crime.

755
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are enough gardening shows.

756
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 5: Although I do I do garden. I do garden, and

757
00:40:52,159 --> 00:40:55,440
no one could do a better gardening show than Monty

758
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:01,320
Gardener's Gardener's World on BBC fifty eight seasoning that show.

759
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,119
Speaker 2: You'd have to pay me money to watch a gardening show.

760
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:04,639
I'm sorry.

761
00:41:04,639 --> 00:41:07,639
Speaker 5: I love it. After doing true crime all day, put

762
00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:09,000
on a garden and show at night.

763
00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:12,079
Speaker 2: That just brings you right back down on earth. I

764
00:41:12,119 --> 00:41:16,000
want to watch the take apart and fix vintage cards.

765
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, there you go, that's your gardening.

766
00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 3: I was going to say my last question for you,

767
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,480
Matt is how do you step away from true crime

768
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,800
at the end of the day, because like us, you're

769
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,559
immersed in it. If you don't turn on a gardening

770
00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:34,119
show at the end of the day, do you watch

771
00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:36,639
stand up? What do you do to keep yourself from

772
00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:40,440
becoming so mired down in the darkness that is prevalent

773
00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:41,679
in this in the genre.

774
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,079
Speaker 5: The thing I love second beyond writing is reading. So

775
00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:48,280
I read a lot of literature. I read a lot

776
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,159
of literary stuff. I read a lot about religious history.

777
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,559
I just I read about I read a lot of

778
00:41:54,599 --> 00:41:58,239
writer biographies. Actually, I just read a great biography, Larry

779
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,719
mcmurtury biography, and that just takes me out of the world.

780
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,159
Speaker 3: I like that answer. I would love to see your

781
00:42:05,199 --> 00:42:06,960
library at some point or another.

782
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 2: Said the English teacher of me. You can come up

783
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,079
and stay at the Maple House and then we can

784
00:42:12,119 --> 00:42:13,280
go visit with Matt.

785
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 5: Do you have there you go? Yeah, you come down

786
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,000
the Coventry farming community. You see the horses and carls.

787
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:23,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, and don't forget Matt, you have friends here in Norfolk, Connecticut,

788
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:25,400
so you can always come over for a visit.

789
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,559
Speaker 5: Yeah. I have a friend who has family out in Salisbury.

790
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:31,559
Is that's out there.

791
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 2: Right, yes? Yeah, next door.

792
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,039
Speaker 5: Yeah, a good friend of mine. He's a writer as well.

793
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:38,719
He has family out there. He goes out there a lot.

794
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,559
My kids live out in New Hartford.

795
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,199
Speaker 2: Torrington, that area that's over our way.

796
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, you got the Root eight serial killer out that way.

797
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,199
The case has been going on for forty years. Yeah, yeah,

798
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,000
body bodies all over the place.

799
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 2: Fascinating story. And a friend of mine had written a

800
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,920
very good book about that case as well.

801
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,079
Speaker 5: Oh no kidding, since a partnership coming on one. Yeah,

802
00:43:01,119 --> 00:43:02,519
that's an interesting case.

803
00:43:04,079 --> 00:43:06,599
Speaker 3: The books are too many and too numerous to list,

804
00:43:06,639 --> 00:43:09,760
but the podcasts are Paper Ghosts and Crossing the Line.

805
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,760
Matt Phelps, thank you so much for joining us today

806
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,360
on Mind of Murder. We appreciate you taking the time

807
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:15,000
to talk to us.

808
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 5: This was great. Thanks thanks for having me. I really

809
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:18,519
appreciate it.

810
00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 2: Look for m William Phelps wherever books are sold, television

811
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,320
series are produced, or podcasts are listened to.

812
00:43:29,079 --> 00:43:29,639
Speaker 5: There you go.

813
00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:32,159
Speaker 3: That is going to do it for this episode of

814
00:43:32,199 --> 00:43:35,920
Mind of Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll

815
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:36,840
see you next time.

816
00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and

817
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:51,760
Another Dog Productions.

818
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,599
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.

819
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

820
00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:01,119
Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin mcleoud.

821
00:44:01,639 --> 00:44:05,519
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with CRAL Space Media.

822
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,639
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.

823
00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway

824
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:14,159
murders on Facebook.

825
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at

826
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,639
Bill Thomas. Five six.

827
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder