Speaker 1: You see something's going to happen.
Speaker 2: What what's going to happen?
Speaker 1: I think? What a.
Speaker 3: Help.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, we're back at
Speaker 2: you with part two of the West Indian Magic. We
Speaker 2: got the same crew that we had earlier in part one.
Speaker 2: We got Lisa the cult reject mad scientist. What's up Lisa?
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 4: I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. It's definitely an interesting topic and again
Speaker 2: not one that I know much about. So uh, was
Speaker 2: there anything that you would like to replug? Got anything?
Speaker 3: So sure?
Speaker 4: Check us out at a cult Research Institute dot org.
Speaker 4: Got many many great country readers. They contribute literary work
Speaker 4: to that website. Checks out there a cool research institute
Speaker 4: dot org.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. And we got
Speaker 2: Jin the Ninja with us again. Jin, what is up
Speaker 2: my man? Please let everybody know what your deal is
Speaker 2: for people who may don't know who you are here.
Speaker 3: Sure, thank you so much, Nick, thank you, Lisa, and
Speaker 3: thank you. I'msaidarian. I highly recommend people to check out
Speaker 3: part one from the part from the from the bit
Speaker 3: I was able to hear of it, it was actually
Speaker 3: a really good episode. So thank you Nick for hosting
Speaker 3: my crazy ideas and you can check me out at
Speaker 3: Threshold Saints on x and also my personal account at
Speaker 3: wukongrie Born to be Uko and g Reborn and Instagram
Speaker 3: at Threshold Saints and the link Trio Vima show nott
Speaker 3: sas that I always is so so check me out
Speaker 3: there and thank you guys so much.
Speaker 2: Awesome, and yes, thank you very much Jin for joining us,
Speaker 2: and thank you very much for the topic. And finally
Speaker 2: to the guest Absidarian, welcome sir. Thank you very much
Speaker 2: again for joining us. I always appreciate your input and
Speaker 2: your stuff that you bring to the show. Please let
Speaker 2: everybody know what you deal is and where they can
Speaker 2: find you.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, and thanks again everyone for having
Speaker 1: me back on. It's a pleasure. So you could find
Speaker 1: me on linked link tree at Absodarian. I do a
Speaker 1: lot of esoteric research. I'm most active on Facebook, Patreon,
Speaker 1: and gab, but I'm also on ig and a little
Speaker 1: bit of Twitter. Yeah, we got a lot to cover today.
Speaker 1: We just we'll talk more about Trinidad, some of the
Speaker 1: traditions going on in Trinidad and being that it's West
Speaker 1: Indian magic. So I wanted to talk about a little
Speaker 1: bit of some of the other islands, what they're involved with,
Speaker 1: some of the correspondents and you know, look at some
Speaker 1: things happening today with some of these esoteric traditions and
Speaker 1: look at some not too well known connections with West
Speaker 1: Indian in the Western magic tradition.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know where you where you want to start,
Speaker 2: but I mean, I guess right now.
Speaker 1: Sure, so last time I really didn't get to talk
Speaker 1: about the Colleague tradition, but the Colleague tradition is really
Speaker 1: popular in the West Indies, especially Trinidad, Guyana and the
Speaker 1: guy and Is in general like Sirnam. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: have you know, in my in my family there's Poujai's
Speaker 1: and people relatives that are into following Collie Collige worship.
Speaker 1: And you know, my my dad has told me so
Speaker 1: many interesting stories about you know, Collige, which is such
Speaker 1: a uh you know, misunderstood daid goddess and there's not
Speaker 1: much known about her, just you know from writing. She's
Speaker 1: one of the Maha videos videos, which is the ten
Speaker 1: goddesses in the Tantric tradition. She's you know, she's usually
Speaker 1: the primary she starts at number one, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the other forms of the Maha videos are also aspects
Speaker 1: of Kali or Durga that some of the darker aspects.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I'll share one story my dad told me.
Speaker 1: My dad's my dad's uncle was a pujari for you know,
Speaker 1: it was a colleague devotee sada as best as I
Speaker 1: understand sada. Again, for the listeners who miss part one,
Speaker 1: Sada worship, there's there's two types of worship in the
Speaker 1: in the tradition, it's you know, white magic or black magic.
Speaker 1: But the white magic tradition is sada, which means, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, no blood. So it's you know, you're not
Speaker 1: offering any any life or anything like that. That is
Speaker 1: not as popular as the the Black Contra section as far,
Speaker 1: which does. Yeah, so the Black Contra is much more
Speaker 1: popular because people, you know, people want to get rich,
Speaker 1: they want to be you know, they want to be powerful.
Speaker 2: Said that again, they want.
Speaker 1: To they want they want to cross the abyss and
Speaker 1: they want that edge. So yeah, the Black Contra is
Speaker 1: really really popular. And I just want to just jump
Speaker 1: to the States and in New York there's a big
Speaker 1: West Indian community and some of the businesses, you know,
Speaker 1: they're owned by Trinidadian or Guyanese people, and you know
Speaker 1: they're they're super successful. And you know, if you go
Speaker 1: in the store, it's like usually a rot shop. Rot
Speaker 1: shop is like, uh, you know, a restaurant that serves
Speaker 1: really good West Indian food. So you'll see a picture
Speaker 1: of the Davy, you know, the goddess. And this is
Speaker 1: a common theme. So a lot of the roaty shops
Speaker 1: and and the most successful business owners, by the way,
Speaker 1: they participate in callie worship and they do offerings. I've
Speaker 1: had a cousin who worked in a roaty shop and
Speaker 1: she said, you know, for some reason, every year, some
Speaker 1: worker gets hurt or injured, right, and she's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I know the owner he's into like black magic and stuff,
Speaker 1: so maybe there's something related there that you know, he's
Speaker 1: he's offering some some you know, someone gets cut or
Speaker 1: some some some blood or injury every year. And that's
Speaker 1: that's really popular. But back to Trinidad, that's that's also
Speaker 1: very popular. And back to the story with my dad's uncle.
Speaker 1: So my dad's uncle was a pujari with with he
Speaker 1: had his own collie temple and everything. And my dad's
Speaker 1: cousin was a female. She she committed suicide over a boy. Right,
Speaker 1: They just didn't work out. The parents weren't okay with
Speaker 1: the relationship. And in Trinida Ad, a common thing back
Speaker 1: in the day was if you're going to commit suicide,
Speaker 1: it was with gramozoon. So you're drinking. I forgot what
Speaker 1: it is, but basically gets poison. Right. So, my dad's
Speaker 1: cousin committed suicide, and you know, my uncle, my dad's
Speaker 1: uncle is distraught and he's he's he's at the he
Speaker 1: and my dad went to console him and he was
Speaker 1: just there, you know, in the temple by himself. He
Speaker 1: was very sad and distraught obviously, and he says, you know,
Speaker 1: he said it was he looked at the watch. He's like,
Speaker 1: all right. He said to my dad, Hey, just just
Speaker 1: wait right here. I'll I'll be right back. I just
Speaker 1: have to go make a offering and speak to Colligue.
Speaker 1: So my dad's just mining his business in the in
Speaker 1: the yard, and no one else is in the in
Speaker 1: the in the estate or the temple, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden he sees his uncle just fly back like
Speaker 1: twenty thirty feet in the air like something knocked them,
Speaker 1: knocked them back like twenty thirty feet and my dad
Speaker 1: runs over. He's checking on my dad's uncle and he
Speaker 1: just looks like wow, he looks confused because he just
Speaker 1: got hit with something. And my dad noticed like a
Speaker 1: big red mark on his forehead and he goes, what happened,
Speaker 1: what's going on? He was like, if I tell you this,
Speaker 1: you can't tell anyone. You know, this is between me
Speaker 1: and you. So my dad's uncle goes, you know, he
Speaker 1: was praying to the davy CALLI please please bring my
Speaker 1: daughter back, Please bring my daughter back, and then he
Speaker 1: just heard a voice that said I give life, not
Speaker 1: so you can take life. And then he just got
Speaker 1: kicked in his head and he just flew back twenty
Speaker 1: thirty feet and he was just in a daze and dazzled.
Speaker 1: So this is just one of one of the Collie
Speaker 1: stories from Trinidad, and there's a few that's not something
Speaker 1: to be messed around with or taken lightly. So I
Speaker 1: thought that was a really interesting story that my dad
Speaker 1: told me. And another very popular temple in the South
Speaker 1: or Collie Temple, big following and whatnot, the hed Poojari.
Speaker 1: One day he just he just committed suicide. He would
Speaker 1: have withoud a shotgun. And he was very beloved in
Speaker 1: the village and everything, and he was doing sada as
Speaker 1: best as everyone knew. He wasn't he wasn't into like
Speaker 1: the black margic part. And it always, it always confused
Speaker 1: me a little bit. I was like, wait a minute,
Speaker 1: this gentleman was not doing any black magic or anything
Speaker 1: as best as I'm aware of, right, and what what
Speaker 1: what made him commit suicide? So this this so that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was just some some colligue stories from Trinidad, which
Speaker 1: is a very powerful goddess and uh, definitely not something
Speaker 1: to be you know, play around with lightly. And I
Speaker 1: just want to draw parallels in the Western tradition. I was,
Speaker 1: I was following the teachings of this really high rank
Speaker 1: in kabbalis. He was he was a Jewish mystic. And
Speaker 1: then he shared with me that one of one of
Speaker 1: the highest uh you know, the highest what is it?
Speaker 1: What would he say? Uh? One of the arcanum arcnorums
Speaker 1: in his tradition was about related to Kali and it
Speaker 1: was Collie's mantra is her true mantra, tantra and yantra.
Speaker 1: So for the for for the view for the listeners,
Speaker 1: Mantra is sound and uh tantra is the practice, and
Speaker 1: yantra is the geometry, the mandalas and everything. So it's
Speaker 1: it's the practice from the sound and and and the
Speaker 1: the image, the correct you know, all that correct stuff.
Speaker 1: And that really took me back. I was like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, this guy's really high ranking Kabbalis and they
Speaker 1: practiced tantra. And then I went down a rabbit hole
Speaker 1: in India, the Jewish influence in India. I had no
Speaker 1: idea how many different times there were Jewish migrations to India,
Speaker 1: as early as the times of Solomon. Right, So there's
Speaker 1: at least six or seven groups just for the viewers,
Speaker 1: just for the listeners, Please excuse me, I don't have
Speaker 1: my full notes here, so I'm just winging most of
Speaker 1: this from memory. But there's six or seven groups in
Speaker 1: India that are there. And I always found that interest
Speaker 1: and because you know, throughout history the Jews have been
Speaker 1: kicked out of over one hundred and nine countries over
Speaker 1: a thousand times, and I always found it interested. They
Speaker 1: were never kicked out of India, right, so they had
Speaker 1: a firm foundation there. And then there's so many similarities
Speaker 1: between some of the groups, Like like the Sikhs, if
Speaker 1: you if you know who the Sikhs are with the Turbans,
Speaker 1: very very similar tribes because both of them are very
Speaker 1: you know, they're very loyal to their tribes. You know,
Speaker 1: Sikhs and Jews don't usually marry, marry outside or intermingle much.
Speaker 1: They're good with business, they grow their hair, and there's
Speaker 1: just so many similarities I picked up on right down
Speaker 1: to you know, with the Old Testament you have you know,
Speaker 1: Abraham and Sarah, and in the in the in the
Speaker 1: in the Eastern tradition, with Hinduism you have Brumha and
Speaker 1: set Us with the right. So that's like there's just
Speaker 1: so many parallels with some of the words. One of
Speaker 1: one of one word is pardisi, which is paradise. And
Speaker 1: I don't have the the Hebrew U name for it,
Speaker 1: but it's it's an acronym, you know, in in uh In,
Speaker 1: in Kabbala, each of a letter stands for another word.
Speaker 1: And you got to excuse me again, I don't have
Speaker 1: my full notes, but that's one of the most interesting
Speaker 1: uh rabbit holes I went down with some of the
Speaker 1: the letter mysticism and then and.
Speaker 2: Do you think that is I'm glad you're bringing that up,
Speaker 2: just real quick. And I hate that that doesn't that
Speaker 2: even like it really feels like that really even screws
Speaker 2: up your mat and and all that stuff. More is
Speaker 2: that like now if you want to say, hey, olive,
Speaker 2: but now you've got to add all those you're actually
Speaker 2: using other letters to explain one letter, mm hmm, and
Speaker 2: then you can start mind.
Speaker 1: That I don't have my notes right now, but I
Speaker 1: went down that rabbit hole and uh, there's a there's
Speaker 1: a very interesting and precise signs to it that that
Speaker 1: I picked up on. And side note, I'm not happy
Speaker 1: with how Gomatra is used nowadays. I think it's just
Speaker 1: what I call confirmation bias. You'll have conspiracy theorists especially,
Speaker 1: they'll they'll find, you know, they'll they'll find a code
Speaker 1: number forty seven and then they'll use the Enokian Gomatria
Speaker 1: or some gomatri that has nothing to do with the
Speaker 1: original word or the language. I always found interesting that
Speaker 1: it's just confirmation biased. They'll just plug it into whatever
Speaker 1: Gomatri system that you know, adheres to the numeric correspondence
Speaker 1: that they're trying to go after.
Speaker 2: There's a problem with some sites. It's like you could
Speaker 2: have like you probably literally have like twelve ciphers you're
Speaker 2: running it through, and it's like at that point, are
Speaker 2: you gonna find what you're looking for? Anyway? Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 2: I understand what you're getting it. I do think, you know,
Speaker 2: even myself when it comes to Jamatria, I've in some
Speaker 2: ways I've kind of calmed down using it in some
Speaker 2: ways and look at it differently. Like even myself, I
Speaker 2: really don't kind of really put too much push on
Speaker 2: it or I think it's that important unless it's, like
Speaker 2: you see it fitting in with like everything else to
Speaker 2: where it makes complete. So you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 2: Almost where I'm using it again like polymants would, it's
Speaker 2: one part of everything else, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed. So we talked a little bit about the
Speaker 1: colleague traditionary.
Speaker 3: Sorry, okay, So I just want to shout out a
Speaker 3: show that Nick and I did a million years ago.
Speaker 3: We did the Tantra and Kabbala series. So we compared
Speaker 3: the ten mahavijas exactly like what you're talking about to
Speaker 3: the ten set on the tree and I gave like
Speaker 3: my reasoning of why they they would go there, and
Speaker 3: I used mostly the sepharatic, the eporatic, excuse me, astrology
Speaker 3: to argue why that I thought that would be the place,
Speaker 3: why that would be the case? Excuse me, and so
Speaker 3: I to But I totally agree with you. I think
Speaker 3: that colleagues are very dangerous. Got us. It's very powerful.
Speaker 3: It's a instruction of time. I said that she was
Speaker 3: like I likened her to maybe the seventh density, if
Speaker 3: you want to call it that a banah, and how
Speaker 3: she is like the you know, she stands upon the
Speaker 3: corpse of time. She is like the destruction of all things.
Speaker 3: But it's also the densifying of all things because gravity
Speaker 3: sort of brings you into formation. So everything. It's like
Speaker 3: the same as Krishna worship. Like Krishna and Kali you
Speaker 3: have that kind of like very close relationship, especially in Bengal.
Speaker 3: So I'm really glad that you brought up like the
Speaker 3: diaspora Jews in India because like the Koshin Jews were
Speaker 3: around the call it like the cal Katta Temple, they
Speaker 3: were around all this stuff. So in the tenth and
Speaker 3: eleventh century when the you know, the totala Tantra was
Speaker 3: being written when all this stuff was like happening. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there were there were groups you did know, traditional Jewish
Speaker 3: kabbala that were there. So it makes sense. And I've
Speaker 3: positive that even though the ordering in the totala Tantra
Speaker 3: is different than the than the tree, it's not that
Speaker 3: they are. It's not that the suffer are in different places.
Speaker 3: It's that the light travels through in a specific way.
Speaker 3: And so that's how they've mapped it out, just as
Speaker 3: like there's a lightning path and a serpent path and
Speaker 3: there's the different ways to cross the tree using those formulas.
Speaker 3: So I think that it perfectly comes together. It's like
Speaker 3: there's already Tndra is a synthesis. And something that Nick
Speaker 3: said was I was like, yeah, Nick, that's Tandra. That's
Speaker 3: like what it is. It's like putting it all kind
Speaker 3: of together and like seeing it as a greater whole.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, I agree with that. And Callie is
Speaker 3: very popular among all of them, and so it's really
Speaker 3: interesting because in Indonesia that there is no Collie. She
Speaker 3: is just Dirga, but she looks like Collie. So she
Speaker 3: will be black and she will be ferocious, and she
Speaker 3: will have the lolling tongue.
Speaker 2: Oh okay there, Yeah, I assume there was a difference
Speaker 2: or something was differently was going on, But I know
Speaker 2: what you're talking about, and they do very look look
Speaker 2: exactly the same.
Speaker 3: So there's the thing is like it it all depends
Speaker 3: on like the story the text. So if you're like
Speaker 3: the Indonesians never receive the Collie Tom, so everything that
Speaker 3: they had received was pre those tontures being written, so
Speaker 3: their practices are caught in a different time. You could say,
Speaker 3: just like Trinidad has like they preference colleague, but in Buddhism,
Speaker 3: we preference a different one, a different Maha vidja or
Speaker 3: a different wisdom goddess. So everybody has kind of like
Speaker 3: their framework that they use, and they're kind of like
Speaker 3: beginning ending terminus. That's sort of how I've been thinking about.
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe that's a little too you know,
Speaker 3: speculative magical theory, but I think that there is something
Speaker 3: that different places when they receive the text, if they
Speaker 3: continue to practice it in the same way, it's interesting
Speaker 3: to look at how it changes exactly how we're talking
Speaker 3: about from island to island, from place to place, because
Speaker 3: you would think of India as being the like origination,
Speaker 3: which it is. But then in India they did not
Speaker 3: maintain the Samparadais, like the contric Sampuradis are very there's
Speaker 3: very few of them left in India. There are contract temples,
Speaker 3: but there's very few contract stampurdaise like schools that practice,
Speaker 3: like a mystery school that practice. So I just think
Speaker 3: it's interesting how they have preserved this stream of it,
Speaker 3: maybe better than in India. And then they've also preferenced
Speaker 3: like a particular goddess. I don't know, just some observations, great,
Speaker 3: great feedback.
Speaker 1: I just want to touch on you mentioned Buddhism. Yes,
Speaker 1: so Buddhism they follow Tara the Green Tower, and in
Speaker 1: India the ten Mahavidias. Tara is the second Mahavidia, which
Speaker 1: is another expansion of Kali. And yes, Durga is related
Speaker 1: to Kali. Colli's the black aspect of Durga. So the
Speaker 1: black mother the un that's a very ancient archetype a
Speaker 1: black mother, right, the black Madonna. And I just want
Speaker 1: to recommend a really good book if you're interested in this.
Speaker 1: It's David Kingsley Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine, the
Speaker 1: ten Mahavidias. And you know, when I was younger learning
Speaker 1: about esoteric Hinduism, I was. I was really blown away
Speaker 1: by David Kingsley's work. I got to give him a
Speaker 1: lot of credit. He really does justice to you know
Speaker 1: that that tradition. And of course you guys probably know
Speaker 1: Mike McGee the magician. Uh, he has the Shiva Shakti
Speaker 1: website also, and he he bought a lot of the
Speaker 1: the tntra to the West with his translations, his original
Speaker 1: translations from a lot of the tontras. So Mike McGhee
Speaker 1: his his website I think is Shivashakti dot org or
Speaker 1: Siva Shukde something like that. But I'll bring it up later.
Speaker 1: And David Kingsley, great author, Jin mentioned the tree and
Speaker 1: I definitely want to circle back to what I was
Speaker 1: saying with paradise, and you guys will love this this
Speaker 1: esoteric breakdown. The word paradise is related to the Hebrew
Speaker 1: word pardise, which is also in Sanskrit and in these
Speaker 1: par desi, which means orchid or garden. It is also
Speaker 1: not to rikhan or an acronym for peshet ramez deche sod.
Speaker 1: These are Hebrew terms for peshet. These are the Hebrew
Speaker 1: terms for each of the letters. Now right, Peschet is
Speaker 1: the literal meaning passed on by religious tradition. Ramez is
Speaker 1: the second letter allegorical meaning, The third letter duche hamolytical meaning,
Speaker 1: which is the applic application of the general principles of
Speaker 1: rhetoric to the specific art of public speaking. And the
Speaker 1: fourth is Sod, which is the mystery or the secret meanings.
Speaker 1: So there's four layers, and you know, when you use
Speaker 1: the kabalistic key, you could you could break down language
Speaker 1: and a lot of different correspondence with this. Uh, when
Speaker 1: we talk about the four kabbaalistic worlds, they really they
Speaker 1: relate to these meanings. Although some fates do not utilize
Speaker 1: the sod or esoteric hidden meaning, most still use the
Speaker 1: first three. If one grasp the first three, it is
Speaker 1: much easier to stare them towards sod, the mystery. So
Speaker 1: I thought that was a great connection there. Okay, so
Speaker 1: we talked about Collie.
Speaker 2: Yeh think you just want to interrupt the real quick? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I know we covered it in I think our ciphers
Speaker 2: and scripts and jamatria, but notre Racana is like a
Speaker 2: former Jamatri, right, I think you said, like, yeah, a
Speaker 2: single letter like stands for something.
Speaker 1: Really interesting science.
Speaker 5: Okay before we do Oh sorry Lisa, no please do
Speaker 5: oh Okay, So I just want to say before we
Speaker 5: get off, Collie, I just want to say they be
Speaker 5: chwo things quick things.
Speaker 3: Is that? Yeah? Green Tara definitely I said that she
Speaker 3: was just sad. So you have like that sort of
Speaker 3: like infinite green blue green ray of mercy, like infinite
Speaker 3: in the world in potential. But you know there are
Speaker 3: all the Maha Vida goddesses in their own way actually
Speaker 3: appear in contrac Buddhism as well. So all of those
Speaker 3: they just appear as Daikini's because they came originally from
Speaker 3: that Choseth Yogini sixty four set, which was not really Hindu,
Speaker 3: it wasn't Paranic, and it wasn't Buddhist. It was just tontric.
Speaker 3: So you had all the different practitioners around. So Chinamasaka
Speaker 3: is actually a Buddhist goddess rather than a Indian contric goddess.
Speaker 3: So I just want to point that out. But absolutely
Speaker 3: I totally agree with that. If you are a Khalikolis,
Speaker 3: meaning that your preference is Khali as the prime mover,
Speaker 3: So the number one exactly like Abstarian said, then you
Speaker 3: are going to view the tree as an emanation out
Speaker 3: of her, which also makes sense in a Christian way
Speaker 3: if you want to think of it like you're coming
Speaker 3: through the three like through Bnah. So you're just saying
Speaker 3: that time is the first or the destruction of time
Speaker 3: is the prime mover in the world perfectly. I think
Speaker 3: anyone who has familiarity with the Coblosi tree could say
Speaker 3: that that's a possibility. So yeah, I think that's really interesting.
Speaker 1: Great, Fore youback, did you want to say something, Lisa?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to say sorry Nick everything Jin said,
Speaker 4: and then Nick said something. I was like, oh wait,
Speaker 4: because you know you brought up that we did an
Speaker 4: episode on Jamatria and how like it's utilized by the
Speaker 4: different tenants like Greek, Greek and then Spanish and then
Speaker 4: Jewish and you have all these emanations coming out from it.
Speaker 4: But and correct me if I'm wrong, and I apologize
Speaker 4: if this is wrong. But is it a lot of
Speaker 4: some of the Gematric practices used to formulate magic squares or.
Speaker 3: Is that in.
Speaker 2: The magic squares would be going by the value of
Speaker 2: the letters would be going by how it is.
Speaker 4: And okay, and then you had said something about shaping
Speaker 4: and see.
Speaker 2: It's just real quick. You can use path that ran
Speaker 2: in two as well. But I mean most people I
Speaker 2: know attribute Hebrew to there.
Speaker 3: Is a there is, sorry Lisa sorta, Nick, there is
Speaker 3: a tontric thing I'm starting mentioned at Yantra building, So
Speaker 3: that does use the Pythagorean like that. It's a triangle system, right,
Speaker 3: it's a system of sixty four triangles, but it's really
Speaker 3: five down and four up. I think that's right. It
Speaker 3: might be the other way, but it's one of those ways.
Speaker 3: And so if you construct it, you use the letters.
Speaker 3: So you place a bija a seed syllable just like
Speaker 3: a Hebrew letter. You would place them in the specific
Speaker 3: triangles and then it would be a range according to
Speaker 3: like a moon a lunar calendar. So the way that
Speaker 3: you would order them going clockwise or counterclockwise, it would depend.
Speaker 3: It could shift depending on like what niche, a goddess
Speaker 3: you were worshiping, or whatever whatever important fostival there was.
Speaker 4: And it's it's something that's used in Sufiism, isn't it?
Speaker 4: Or am I incorrect?
Speaker 3: No, you're totally right. And I've been reading a little
Speaker 3: bit about this al I think they call it el
Speaker 3: Kabani kabbala or something. It's it's it's a very popular
Speaker 3: form of kabala for the Golden Dawn, is how I understand,
Speaker 3: And so they it's but it's it's Islamic. It's not Jewish.
Speaker 3: I mean, obviously yes, Jewish ris but yeah, you're totally right.
Speaker 3: They have Islamic letter mysticism, which most normative Muslims actually
Speaker 3: do know, seem to know a little bit about, or
Speaker 3: at least understand that it exists.
Speaker 4: Absidarian's point is that you look at all these different religions,
Speaker 4: regardless of what they are, their mystic arm or the
Speaker 4: part of that religion or the mystic one, are still
Speaker 4: using deematria, are still using these methods to form or
Speaker 4: to help guide them in their mystic journey. And so
Speaker 4: when people and to your point exactly, people are using
Speaker 4: jamatria and almost bastardizing the entire process when it's actually
Speaker 4: a very I guess methodological type of a way to
Speaker 4: formulate things. I don't know, maybe not, but so no.
Speaker 3: That's a really good point, Lisa, because I think when
Speaker 3: you know when you and do the shows on the
Speaker 3: medieval like, uh, who's the one that Nick gloves on
Speaker 3: the grim wires? But the Michael Myers, So he's talking
Speaker 3: a lot about cipher's. Nick always talks about Michael Myers, right,
Speaker 3: so that he's talking about ciphers all the time. And
Speaker 3: I think that that's what we've seen in modern occultism,
Speaker 3: is that they've increased sort of the use of the ciphers.
Speaker 3: So we're much more familiar with the ciphers they would
Speaker 3: use in like Crowley, like we can we can see
Speaker 3: there's a little spycraft at play. We may not understand it,
Speaker 3: but we know it's there. So I think it's become
Speaker 3: muddy because of how out in the culture it has become,
Speaker 3: and also our level of awareness, right, Like we're never
Speaker 3: able to speak like this at any other time in
Speaker 3: history than right now. So you know, like how you
Speaker 3: were saying before, it's like the show that the dialogue
Speaker 3: that we have as multiple people, we we kind of
Speaker 3: create a polymath in a way for at least an
Speaker 3: hour and a half.
Speaker 1: Right, so try you know, yeah, great points. I just
Speaker 1: wanted to build on on what some of your comments
Speaker 1: with the the Yantra. So I want to talk about
Speaker 1: the Shri Yantra, which is like the one of the
Speaker 1: top juntras and in in Tantra. The Shri Yantra is
Speaker 1: core response to one of the Maha videos, not Kali,
Speaker 1: but even more hidden aspect that not too many people
Speaker 1: aware of. And some say this is even higher, which
Speaker 1: is Tripura Sundari, which is like the she's a sixteen
Speaker 1: year old davy. One of her epithets is Sodashi, which
Speaker 1: means the sixteenth, so it's a hidden sixteenth syllable. There's
Speaker 1: a fifteenth syllable mantra and she brings out the full
Speaker 1: mantra if you're initiated by mounted air, so it turns
Speaker 1: the fifteen seed mantra into sixteen. And I always found
Speaker 1: it interest in, you know what, as a corresponds to
Speaker 1: letters in my esoteric research, I've found in numerous sources
Speaker 1: from Papus to Saint Martin, they also claim that the
Speaker 1: original alphabet had sixteen letters. So I always thought that
Speaker 1: was a really interesting correspondence. And I even drew the sriantra.
Speaker 1: So I was years ago. I was just fastened or Navatri,
Speaker 1: which is the nine nights for the davy. So you
Speaker 1: do fasten and you worship. And during that time, I
Speaker 1: was really into geometry. And let me tell you, when
Speaker 1: you draw geometry, that thing comes to life. It's similar
Speaker 1: they say, you know, if you have a tarot deck,
Speaker 1: it's even more powerful. If you draw your own tarot
Speaker 1: deck while fastened, you're gonna draw way better cards and
Speaker 1: it's gonna even better correspondence. So a lot of magicians
Speaker 1: part of their training or initiation is you gotta draw
Speaker 1: your own deck. Right. So I remember, when I was
Speaker 1: learning a lot about this, I came across this interesting quote.
Speaker 1: It was Shiva is Shiva without shakti. Shiva means corpse,
Speaker 1: So Shiva is Shiva without shuks shakti. So that means,
Speaker 1: you know, the popular icon of Kali standing on Shiva
Speaker 1: with her tongue out. So there's just so much rich
Speaker 1: symbolism right there. And I just had a thought, well, well,
Speaker 1: while doing this podcast, how you know, I'm sure there's
Speaker 1: a there's a connection between the ten Maha videos and
Speaker 1: we can map that on the tree with the ten sephara.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I just thought of this right now, but
Speaker 1: I'm pretty much sure there's a correspondence there right with
Speaker 1: the tree.
Speaker 2: Makes sense to me.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, well as I argue that there there is,
Speaker 3: I mean, you don't have to follow my way, but
Speaker 3: I agree. I think that there's a one to one
Speaker 3: relationship between the shakti's and like maybe a shakendah layer.
Speaker 3: Maybe you could say it's like the seventh density of
Speaker 3: the sufferra. Yeah, absolutely, Like as I said, a Collie
Speaker 3: and Banah. It makes a lot of sense to me
Speaker 3: in a tontric way. She's raising the time king. She's
Speaker 3: raising Mahakala back into life from his corpse, just like
Speaker 3: the example you gave, Like shere Shiva without Shakti is Shava, right,
Speaker 3: So she's raising his corpse from Shiva into Mahakala into time,
Speaker 3: bringing time into the Leila. That makes a lot of
Speaker 3: sense to me. I don't know, just just riffing, I
Speaker 3: guess certainly.
Speaker 2: So do you think that's a lot like Isis and Osavius?
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, can I speak on that because I did
Speaker 1: some research between India and Egypt. You know, both of
Speaker 1: them really revere the lotus one. Osiris is really a
Speaker 1: Shiva figure, right, So I have this I did this
Speaker 1: meme where isis is in Egypt, she found all the
Speaker 1: pieces of Osiris except one and then the next frame
Speaker 1: is meanwhile in India and you have the lingam. So yes,
Speaker 1: the the symbolism between the fourteenth part of that's missing
Speaker 1: of Osiris. I I correlate that to Shiva's lingam with
Speaker 1: the phallic symbol the creative essence. And in uh in Hinduism,
Speaker 1: esoteric Hinduism, the titties are the moon cycles. The fourteen
Speaker 1: is uh that that relates to that the titis which
Speaker 1: is the you know, one of the phases of the moon.
Speaker 1: So one hundred's there's a correspondence I see in Egypt
Speaker 1: and uh in in India. And if you look at
Speaker 1: Rudolf Steiner's cosmology, he says that the post Atlantis civilizations,
Speaker 1: the first epoch was in India and the second was
Speaker 1: in Egypt. So and I always felt that was true
Speaker 1: with with my uh you know, my research and everything.
Speaker 1: But the first epoch in India we have zero written records,
Speaker 1: zero anything we have now it's those are like the
Speaker 1: third epoch with with the Vedas that came much later.
Speaker 1: So before there there was no written records and things
Speaker 1: like that. You just have to go into clairvoyance the
Speaker 1: Kashak records happened to the ether to really find that correspondence.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I do see a very interesting correspondence between
Speaker 1: Osiris and Shiva, very similar symbolism and correspondence. So I'm
Speaker 1: glad you bought that up.
Speaker 3: Also, also Isis and Tara. So Isis doesn't really relate
Speaker 3: to Kali. But if you relate Isis to Tara or
Speaker 3: Uma Tara, meaning that she can it can cover the
Speaker 3: identity of her in the Vitas, the Piranhas, and the tontras.
Speaker 3: And then I think that she corresponds to an Isis figure,
Speaker 3: just as Durga can populate the tree using the nov Durga. Right,
Speaker 3: Like there are different expressions of the goddess depending on
Speaker 3: where you're You're saying is the first one. So if
Speaker 3: I think it makes more sense in the comparative comparative
Speaker 3: like theology, I guess is to look at Isis and
Speaker 3: Uma Tara rather than Ice and Callie. So I think
Speaker 3: that's where like that perspective, like where you prefer Tara
Speaker 3: as the prime how maybe how close were you to
Speaker 3: the original story or how close were you to the
Speaker 3: Egyptian story? And then different people preference different versions, right.
Speaker 4: Indeed, ahead, can I mention something and please correct me
Speaker 4: if I'm wrong, because I am. I'm going to riff
Speaker 4: like like Jinja said, So the lotus is extremely popular
Speaker 4: in I'm going to go with Egyptian. And you all
Speaker 4: just said O cyrus and isis and so you have
Speaker 4: the what is it duality? I guess you could say,
Speaker 4: so to speak or whatever the opposed the opposites, right,
Speaker 4: And when you look at most of the what's what's
Speaker 4: put on walls and what's depicted on the walls in Egypt,
Speaker 4: you constantly see the lotus or the water lily. You know,
Speaker 4: I know they're two totally different species, but bear with me, uh,
Speaker 4: and please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the
Speaker 4: lotus and the water lily are protodymus in that one
Speaker 4: day they will be well. They first develop as female,
Speaker 4: and when a pollinator lands on them, they will close
Speaker 4: the flower, go all the way into the water, and
Speaker 4: come back up as a male. And then the pollinator
Speaker 4: will walk around the flower, pollinating the rest of the
Speaker 4: area of the flower, and then it will close again,
Speaker 4: come back down and then come back up as a female.
Speaker 4: And then you know, the whole pollination begins and what
Speaker 4: have you. Isn't that Trojan or am I miss?
Speaker 3: No? That's no, that's one hundred percent correct. That's why
Speaker 3: when you see them in Asia, the lotuses will always
Speaker 3: grow in a colony, like when you see them in
Speaker 3: the late like any pictures from Vietnam or India, those
Speaker 3: grow in a colony because it's really like only a
Speaker 3: few plants together, right, It might be multiple expressions, but
Speaker 3: it's really only maybe two or three plants in total.
Speaker 3: So it's always like a colony like that. And so yeah,
Speaker 3: you're totally right. And I think that there's even in
Speaker 3: something interesting that you're saying with her Meth there's a
Speaker 3: hermetic sort of element of like transitioning between genders, right,
Speaker 3: And so that's also interesting to what Absidarian was saying
Speaker 3: about tripperro Sundery, because when I did those episodes with Nick,
Speaker 3: which is that's a long series they I talked a
Speaker 3: lot about tripro Sindery, how she is like in Buddhism
Speaker 3: she is kind of very very important Dakini goddess, and
Speaker 3: that she is also the expression of the word, so
Speaker 3: she is the third cause, like if you're using the
Speaker 3: to reference with Absidarian said the Todala TNTRA list, Colley's
Speaker 3: number one, Tara's number two, number three is Tripperro Sindery,
Speaker 3: So she is the third cause. But there's also another
Speaker 3: way to read that. So time as you know, Lisa,
Speaker 3: as I've said, even between us before, one can never
Speaker 3: be one is not a prime number, so one can
Speaker 3: never really be first cause. So the second cause really
Speaker 3: is where you start. It's perception. But then what is
Speaker 3: perception without like a container? So what is the container?
Speaker 3: Is the word? So you could say that in shri Vijia,
Speaker 3: that different school than Callikola, so they prefer trip or
Speaker 3: Sundry as their sort of like main goddess, and they
Speaker 3: would say that actually Collie is an expression of her,
Speaker 3: just as a colleae Cola would say that she is
Speaker 3: an expression of colleague. But she has more of a
Speaker 3: wide range appeals. She's not a dark she's like, she's
Speaker 3: very she's a vibrant. She's much more vibrant, So it's
Speaker 3: it's a different I would say, it's a different polarity almost,
Speaker 3: it's like a different energy, but it's also talking about
Speaker 3: the same energy. So I think that's she her symbol
Speaker 3: is the lotus, and the lotus really is the sixty
Speaker 3: four triangles. And so we all notice that most Buddhists,
Speaker 3: most Indian especially shockeda goddess cosmology iconography, they will always
Speaker 3: show a lotus. So some on the pictures with Nick
Speaker 3: that I showed with some of them had eleven pedals,
Speaker 3: some of them had nine pedals, some of them had
Speaker 3: one hundred and eight pedals. So it really depends on
Speaker 3: your system, what the text is saying, and then the
Speaker 3: artists artists preference. But I think to go with your
Speaker 3: point about the lotuses, it's kind of like that with language,
Speaker 3: like about jamatria. It's like there are multiple expressions of
Speaker 3: the same system and then maybe over time the system
Speaker 3: degrades because everybody has sort of forgotten how to interpret
Speaker 3: it in the original way. And I think that's also
Speaker 3: like what the part as is.
Speaker 1: Like.
Speaker 3: The parta system is like the pomegranates, right, the garden
Speaker 3: of pomegranates or the orchard of pomegrants, both, that's what
Speaker 3: it is. It's like, do there are the seeds corrupted?
Speaker 3: Are the beijas purified? That's what Buddhist sunskret is for.
Speaker 3: So when we do like the Hovid, like we don't
Speaker 3: call them the Mahavij's, but when we do those kind
Speaker 3: of more left handed rituals for those tikinis or whatever
Speaker 3: or goddesses, it's to purify the bijas. So it's just
Speaker 3: to pure ritually purify them and make them like pristine again,
Speaker 3: like the primordial. So that's the difference really between like
Speaker 3: Buddhism and Hinduism. But there's something really interesting there. I think,
Speaker 3: like just like how we're looking at different systems changing,
Speaker 3: evolving and also localizing, because I think that's a big
Speaker 3: part of Jamatria and I think it's a lot a
Speaker 3: lot of West Indian magic as well. It's like how
Speaker 3: it's localized to the conditions of different streams of influence.
Speaker 2: Which is why there's differences between different islands.
Speaker 1: Anything else, Yeah, sure, So, yeah, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about the lotus symbolism a little bit that Lisa mentioned. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I took a great trip to uh each
Speaker 1: of years ago. I did a Nile cruise and you
Speaker 1: would stop off and all Cairo asked, you know, asked
Speaker 1: all the different places. I was just blown away by
Speaker 1: the you know, I went into great Pyramid, really amazing energy.
Speaker 1: But yet the Lotus I noticed there were two flowers
Speaker 1: that I noticed in a lot of the art and
Speaker 1: and the symbolism. It was actually the lotus and the papyrus.
Speaker 1: I saw a lot and the papyrus. I learned that
Speaker 1: it represented Lower Egypt, which was the north, and the
Speaker 1: lotus was Upper Egypt, which was the you know, the
Speaker 1: south of Egypt. And you know the the lotus, if
Speaker 1: you know, if you know anything about the Egyptians, they
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time preparing for the afterlife, right,
Speaker 1: so the Lotus had to do with like rebirth and eternity, resurrection,
Speaker 1: renewal of life. So I always thought that was really interested.
Speaker 1: And then I always wanted to do a study between
Speaker 1: the Egyptian Book the Dead and the Tibetan Book of
Speaker 1: the Dead. Any has anyone read any of those two.
Speaker 3: Egypt Egyptian. Yeah, I've read, I've read the Tibetan. I
Speaker 3: will say this for the Tibetan is that it's an
Speaker 3: incomplete version of our Barbo books. So yeah, there are
Speaker 3: parts of it that are real, there are parts of
Speaker 3: it that were invented for that seventies, you know, New
Speaker 3: Age audience. I guess you could say, but there's really
Speaker 3: there's real stuff, Like there's they talk about like the
Speaker 3: different tikinis. You'll see the forty nine Nights of the
Speaker 3: Soul traveling through the Smoky Realm. Yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 3: it's very interesting. It's definitely influenced, like Tontra has definitely
Speaker 3: influenced modern magic. I mean we see it. We interviewed
Speaker 3: the guy from Temple of Set the other day and
Speaker 3: he that's a big part of Temple of Set, right,
Speaker 3: Like they they really love that Evela, the Bairava Tantras,
Speaker 3: the Collie Contras. They're really interested in them. Not that
Speaker 3: they're necessarily doing exactly what those say, they're interested in
Speaker 3: the ideas. So I think that the like contra is
Speaker 3: really interesting to look at in the West Indian context
Speaker 3: because it didn't it sort of stayed the same, whereas
Speaker 3: Tontra sort of it evolved into something else. In the
Speaker 3: other parts of the world, there's kind of much more
Speaker 3: of the tradition of like, oh, it's like you worship
Speaker 3: this to get rich fast. That's not really what Tontra's for,
Speaker 3: but that's kind of like the that's more maybe a
Speaker 3: village more village person's perspective, like they're going to worship
Speaker 3: the harder deity.
Speaker 2: Sorry you're talking. I will say that from my experience
Speaker 2: in like I guess the magical community or ceremonial magician
Speaker 2: community doesn't really matter kind of I guess, like what
Speaker 2: order or what kind of stuff you'd be into. Tontra
Speaker 2: seems to be like just like a tool that any magician,
Speaker 2: no matter what they're practicing, may decided to use one
Speaker 2: day in their magical thing. It doesn't actually from just
Speaker 2: my experience, so it doesn't matter like what kind of
Speaker 2: stuff you're into. It just seems to be something like meditation,
Speaker 2: same thing, you know what I'm saying, or if you're
Speaker 2: into certain breathing techniques. It's just like almost like a
Speaker 2: common thing that has just used no matter what you're into.
Speaker 3: Well you know that it was terror first. Yeah, no,
Speaker 3: you're you're absolutely true. Y're that's absolutely correct. Like the
Speaker 3: first guy who wrote the first nentre in English, hor
Speaker 3: translated the first Tontra was Sir John A. Woodruff. He
Speaker 3: was third. He was the governor of Calcutta for thirty
Speaker 3: nine years. Interesting number, and he his wife was also
Speaker 3: a colleague Contraca of the highest ninth ninth Marga. So
Speaker 3: she had gone all the way. He had gone all
Speaker 3: the way. He was a member of the Golden Dawn.
Speaker 3: He was also a member of like the Calcutta's Masonic
Speaker 3: like whatever thing. They had a huge Masonic temple. So
Speaker 3: he was obviously crossing systems like way back in like
Speaker 3: whatever eighteen o five. Yeah, exactly, because they can see
Speaker 3: that if there's something there, something powerful like thread right
Speaker 3: and and like the universal archetypes, so it makes sense
Speaker 3: like drawing on the threads that we've been drawing on,
Speaker 3: like the Maha vijays. Yes, there's an absolute relationship to
Speaker 3: the Keybrew tree, absolutely, like no question about it. Now,
Speaker 3: whether you want to use mine attributions or you know,
Speaker 3: there's other people who've done it. They just put Collie
Speaker 3: at Cather, which changes the whole nature of the tree, right.
Speaker 3: I didn't do that because that's not I didn't think
Speaker 3: that was cracked. So I did my own thing, like ahways.
Speaker 2: Interesting Absodarian m Is there anything else that you wanted
Speaker 2: to touch on? Uh?
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me see we were since we were speaking
Speaker 1: about Tonch I just wanted to circle back on that
Speaker 1: that website that you guys should definitely check out if
Speaker 1: you if you want to see some really cool information
Speaker 1: on this subject is Mike McGee's site. He's passed away,
Speaker 1: but it's Shiva Shakti dot com. So basically Shiva Shakti
Speaker 1: dot com. It's it's a great reference. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: I just want to to touch on the some of
Speaker 1: the origins. Has to do it for my research. Kashmir sham.
Speaker 1: So this is around eight p fifty CE and uh,
Speaker 1: let me see what was the name of the of
Speaker 1: the founder? Oh man, it's a go rock. It's a
Speaker 1: go rock something. It's slipping me right now. But does
Speaker 1: anyone know any anything about never even that stream?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I do know about it, but I pause
Speaker 3: a little earlier. I think this Buddhism has a different
Speaker 3: ignorants its own history. Right, So we say that TNTRA
Speaker 3: came from us, which is obviously all magicians do this, right,
Speaker 3: They always claim the origin of things. So but I
Speaker 3: know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: It.
Speaker 3: You know, it really arose in Kashmir among the na
Speaker 3: the naf yogis, so Matsandra Knov being number one, then
Speaker 3: Gornov being number two. So that's really where the appearance
Speaker 3: of these kind of nondual bi rava tantra is like
Speaker 3: a god of day and night. That's one way to
Speaker 3: think about it. Or time, you could say time and
Speaker 3: waking time and sleeping time or dreaming time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, good connection, definitely. Yeah, you hit the nail on
Speaker 1: the head with the goak and the not tradition. That
Speaker 1: that was the word I was looking for as well,
Speaker 1: A very very interesting stream if you look at the
Speaker 1: history there. All right, So we talked about the colleague tradition,
Speaker 1: and I think it's only fair we talk about some
Speaker 1: of the other islands and and you know some of
Speaker 1: the similarities in the correspondence, so you know the so
Speaker 1: we talked about in part one Obia which is Obia
Speaker 1: and Shango is more more for Trinidad. So Obia is
Speaker 1: basically non centralized, right, there's not really not a central
Speaker 1: canon and uh, Shango is very similar. I don't know
Speaker 1: much about it, but it's a very similar local practice.
Speaker 1: And uh, I'll share a quick story Obia story on
Speaker 1: from my family. I had an uncle on my dad's side.
Speaker 1: He was born with a spiritual gift, you know, and
Speaker 1: with sight and uh you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: different competing traditions in Trinidad and the West Indies in general,
Speaker 1: from you know, Obia Shango uh Tantra. And he was
Speaker 1: a teenager when he started getting his gift of vision
Speaker 1: and and and and you know uh and the gift
Speaker 1: of tongue, and he couldn't handle it. He would trip
Speaker 1: off every noight and he'd have like episodes, and the family,
Speaker 1: you know, they would go to they went everywhere for help.
Speaker 1: They went to the imams which Islam, they went to
Speaker 1: like Christian priests, they went to Hindu pundits. And we
Speaker 1: found that there were people trying to steal his gift,
Speaker 1: which is a very common practice you know in the village,
Speaker 1: as if someone knows you have a spiritual gift, they
Speaker 1: would either try to you know, bring you down or
Speaker 1: you know, take your gift. Right, So this was this
Speaker 1: was what was happening with my uncle. There different people
Speaker 1: were just trying to take his gift. There's a Obi,
Speaker 1: a man living across the street that would always you know,
Speaker 1: do black magic and mess with them. And this Obi
Speaker 1: a man actually killed my grandfather with alcohol. He he
Speaker 1: came out of the hospital and you know, with some
Speaker 1: ulcers and stuff in his stomach and he couldn't drink,
Speaker 1: and the obiaman across the street was like, hey, let's
Speaker 1: have a drink for old times sake, YadA, YadA, YadA,
Speaker 1: And we found out that, you know, he was just
Speaker 1: really just trying to do black magic on the family
Speaker 1: and everything. So, uh, after my dad he was like, man,
Speaker 1: we're taking my uncle everywhere around. He's not getting help. Uh,
Speaker 1: let me go to Guyana because Guyana at the time
Speaker 1: was known for the for the buck people. These these
Speaker 1: are like the bush people, the bush like they were indigenous.
Speaker 1: They're you know, they know the land. They're really powerful magicians.
Speaker 1: And at the time, you know, my dad he told
Speaker 1: this great story. He was just you know, he's in
Speaker 1: the forest. He had to go with the canoe for
Speaker 1: like miles and miles and then he met with this
Speaker 1: female shaman just in in the in the Amazon rainforest,
Speaker 1: right and uh and she just smiles when she sees
Speaker 1: my dad. It's like I've been expecting you. So my
Speaker 1: dad tells him, tells her the situation. You know, everybody's
Speaker 1: trying to my uncle's gift. What can we do. We
Speaker 1: went some we've tried to get help from somewhere. So
Speaker 1: many places. He keeps tripping off, he's having like psychotic
Speaker 1: episodes and he's getting violent, and uh, He's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well there's you know, the obium on is really sending
Speaker 1: a lot of send sending a lot of magic his way.
Speaker 1: Before I do this, I could reverse it, but you
Speaker 1: sure you want to you know, you shure you want
Speaker 1: to reverse it and everything. This is very powerful work
Speaker 1: and I'm not sure what will happen. And he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I forgot what she did. She did something, She
Speaker 1: did some some prayers and then she threw some nails
Speaker 1: in air. And you know at that time, you know,
Speaker 1: there's no cell phones or anything like that, right, and
Speaker 1: then she threw the nails in the air. She did
Speaker 1: her work or whatever, and then they left and my
Speaker 1: dad went to uh back to Trinidad, and he went
Speaker 1: to his house and there was a funeral across the street.
Speaker 1: While he was there. He was like, oh, the Obie
Speaker 1: man passed away while you were in Guyana. And they
Speaker 1: did the time correspondence, like my dad was with the
Speaker 1: with the with the bush Lady, the buck lady. She
Speaker 1: was with them around nine o'clock when he when she
Speaker 1: threw the nails in the air. My cousins and my
Speaker 1: aunts and uncle there there was like, oh, we heard
Speaker 1: a big scream from across the street around nine o'clock. Right,
Speaker 1: So this guy passed away and then a few months
Speaker 1: later his house burned down and whatnot. And then my
Speaker 1: my uncle calmed down. He was like normal with the parentheses,
Speaker 1: you know, he still had his vision and whatever. But
Speaker 1: my dad a couple of months later he went back
Speaker 1: to Guyana because he would go to Guyana, he had
Speaker 1: family over there, and he just went to the lady
Speaker 1: to thank her and she passed away. Because it was
Speaker 1: just such powerful. You know, when you kick back magic
Speaker 1: sometimes it goes back to you. And this but my
Speaker 1: dad's a better storyteller. I don't have the notes, but man,
Speaker 1: what a story he told me with this whole ordeal,
Speaker 1: with with this happening. And real quick, while we're on
Speaker 1: the subject of Guyana, I had an uncle who also
Speaker 1: very spiritual gifted, and his in laws were in Guyana
Speaker 1: and they invited him to Guyana. And they were Collie devotees, right,
Speaker 1: but they were they were doing the black magic Collie
Speaker 1: and they would they were keeping them up every night.
Speaker 1: They were just keeping them up. He just wasn't able
Speaker 1: to go to sleep, and you know, to try to
Speaker 1: go to sleep ute and then they would take them
Speaker 1: to these Collie pooges and offerings and whatnot. And after
Speaker 1: a while he realized something's wrong. So I'm not sleeping,
Speaker 1: I'm on edge. Let me get out of here. And
Speaker 1: then when he went back to Trinidad, he was on
Speaker 1: the Christian side, so the priest came, you know, they
Speaker 1: did exorcism on him, and my cousins were on the
Speaker 1: road and they were like they were just seeing like
Speaker 1: spirits coming out of my uncle, like and they counted
Speaker 1: like twenty one, like you know, you've seen shadows, You've
Speaker 1: seen like light bulbs, and yeah, I just wanted to
Speaker 1: tell another Colligue story on, you know, on the darker side,
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of black magic, and Guyana is
Speaker 1: known for the Collie magic and it's really powerful what
Speaker 1: they do, but they do a lot on the on
Speaker 1: the black magic side. So I thought that was a
Speaker 1: very interesting connection there.
Speaker 3: But let's touch on Sorry I didn't know, but I
Speaker 3: want to touch on our Lady of Saparia. I'm not
Speaker 3: sure if you're familiar with that story, but I think
Speaker 3: it's a very illustrative and really important and interesting shrine.
Speaker 3: So it is one of the only black madonnas of
Speaker 3: the Americas. Trinidad. It's at a small church called Our
Speaker 3: Lady of Saparia, but she has another name, SAPARi Ma.
Speaker 3: So she is also considered an emanation of Collie, but
Speaker 3: she's also considered an emanation of guan Yin, and she's
Speaker 3: also considered a more comesticist figure among some of the
Speaker 3: Obeya people or the Shango people who also visit the shrine.
Speaker 3: So you have Catholics, ostensibly Taoist ethnic Chinese people, you
Speaker 3: have Obeya people, and you have Hindus, all worshiping the
Speaker 3: same figure. And they all have slightly different names, but
Speaker 3: interrelated names. And it is supposedly the Sight of Miracles,
Speaker 3: and it is the statue is supposedly self arising, as
Speaker 3: they found it miraculously in a cave and a mountain,
Speaker 3: is how I believe it's I remember, or it came
Speaker 3: from the ocean. I can't remember the exact story, but
Speaker 3: it's one of the two. So I think she's really interesting,
Speaker 3: and she is very dark skinned. Among the marys so
Speaker 3: and like visibly ethnic, but not it's not black. It's
Speaker 3: it's kind of like a black Madonna thing. So I
Speaker 3: don't know, it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely interesting connection with with the Black Madonna. So
Speaker 1: I think it's only fair we touch base with with
Speaker 1: some of the other islands I'm not too familiar with with,
Speaker 1: like Voodoo, are you guys, Do you guys know much
Speaker 1: anything that you guys want to share about Voodoo before
Speaker 1: I just give some information.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll do a little thing about voodoo. I think
Speaker 3: it's I think there's a well, we've talked about it
Speaker 3: a little bit with JJ and Nick and on some
Speaker 3: of the other shows, and that's certainly the show on
Speaker 3: the Lawrence Company. But I think voodoo people tend to
Speaker 3: think that it's all over the islands, whereas Voodoo is
Speaker 3: much more localized. Like, yes, there's influences obviously Puerto Rico,
Speaker 3: the men can Republic all that, but I think that
Speaker 3: it's much more focused on Haiti and then obviously cute
Speaker 3: Miami and New York because of the diaspora. So but
Speaker 3: I think voodoo is interesting. I think that what you
Speaker 3: said about the Shanngo, they remind me a lot of Zoroastrianism,
Speaker 3: so I've always found that very interesting. They focus on
Speaker 3: the seven main or Risha's the seven sort of like
Speaker 3: rays of the One God. Something interesting about that. And
Speaker 3: then but then to tie it into voodoo, well, Voodoo
Speaker 3: is obviously slightly different than Santoria because it comes from
Speaker 3: two different places in Africa. Voodoo has more of a
Speaker 3: Dahomeian origin, and they say that Sanuria has more of
Speaker 3: a Yorubin origin. But I think that you can make
Speaker 3: a case also that it's a lot more intermixed, and
Speaker 3: a lot more indigenous, and a lot more European. It's
Speaker 3: sort of all three things at the same time. That's
Speaker 3: my opinion. So voodoo is no real difference than maybe
Speaker 3: like seventeenth century masonry with like some hellfire rights. They
Speaker 3: just you know, it just looks a little different, but
Speaker 3: it's there. I think there's something that is understandable and
Speaker 3: very I think it influenced a lot of people, as
Speaker 3: I've referenced on the show, like before, like the Haitian
Speaker 3: the Gnostic Haitian Gnostic Handbook by Michael Burtio that was
Speaker 3: one of my first like left handed grimars I ever read.
Speaker 3: And he he I don't know if he's really into
Speaker 3: voodoo or what the whole weird Covin was doing, but
Speaker 3: he's definitely drawing ideas. So I think that there are
Speaker 3: some like really interesting ideas with the sigils. I know
Speaker 3: you brought that up up, Starr, and so yeah, I'll
Speaker 3: let you go.
Speaker 1: Sorry, No, I don't be sorry. I was great, great
Speaker 1: feedback that you shared, a great breakdown and introduction. I
Speaker 1: just and I'll build upon that. There's the visual symbols
Speaker 1: of voodoo. I hope I'm pronouncing is a vivi or VeVe,
Speaker 1: the the visual symbols, and just to to expand upon
Speaker 1: what you're saying with the European influence, I found this,
Speaker 1: this this nugget really interesting. I was researching Martinize de Pascuale,
Speaker 1: who is an early Martinist, and uh, he started Lewis
Speaker 1: Cohen's which was the Order of Knight Masons, the elect
Speaker 1: priests of the universe. So they were known for doing
Speaker 1: a lot of ritual work, a lot like daily hours
Speaker 1: and hours of ritual work, really heavy stuff. And Martiniz
Speaker 1: de Pasqually he died. I think he died in Hispaniola,
Speaker 1: an island between Cuban and Puerto Rico, the Greater Antilles
Speaker 1: of the Caribbean. I'm not sure, but somewhere somewhere around there.
Speaker 1: I always found it interest in that, you know, he
Speaker 1: passed away over there, and after that, the Lewis Cohen
Speaker 1: tradition just fell apart, and you know, they didn't have
Speaker 1: all the information, they weren't initiated into the high rights.
Speaker 1: Fast forward to the present time, there was a little
Speaker 1: rebirth with this movement with the OMS. It was a
Speaker 1: Martinist group, and there was this really interesting blog called
Speaker 1: the Three Luminaries. It was one of the one of
Speaker 1: the writers was Paul Edward Rana. Very interesting character. I've
Speaker 1: seen his interviews, and really upstanding gentleman he had. He
Speaker 1: was really really brilliant mind, he was dedicated, he was
Speaker 1: well loved. And he passed away in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: It was a suicide, self inflicted gunshot. Won't they say
Speaker 1: it was an accident. You know, he's just playing around.
Speaker 1: I don't know the details, but I bring that up
Speaker 1: because he towards the end he went full Christian and
Speaker 1: he left the OMS and the Martinist teachings and all
Speaker 1: occult work, all that ritual work aside, and on the
Speaker 1: Three Luminaries, he talked about his journey and that you know,
Speaker 1: he researched, you know, the symbolism and he found that,
Speaker 1: you know, he was not a fan of Martinise the
Speaker 1: Pasquali at the end, and he compared some of the
Speaker 1: higher teachings that they had, you know, evidence of, like
Speaker 1: the vevet, the visual symbols of voodoo. So I thought
Speaker 1: that was a really interesting connection between you know, you know,
Speaker 1: European tradition in the West Indian tradition, how much influenced
Speaker 1: the islands had on Europe at the time, the seventeen hundreds,
Speaker 1: And yeah, this is just that was a very interesting
Speaker 1: rabbit hole going down. Does anyone know anything about any
Speaker 1: of little subjects that they want to?
Speaker 2: I mean, I've heard of Martinism before, but I had
Speaker 2: no idea that any of that was. I didn't know
Speaker 2: anybody who was in it, but I have heard of them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this makes a lot of This makes a lot
Speaker 3: of sense to me. Sorry, nick uh This makes a
Speaker 3: lot of sense to me because of what we've been
Speaker 3: talking about with Heidi. But then also because if you
Speaker 3: look at the composition Anglophone islands are usually Anglican or
Speaker 3: like British colonial islands, right, so they would have the
Speaker 3: influence of the both the low and high Anglicanism. So
Speaker 3: that would obviously affect the framework of the quote unquote
Speaker 3: folk magic in it. So like Haiti, it's French Catholic ostensibly,
Speaker 3: so you would use that Rosicrucian framework and or that
Speaker 3: French blue pillar whatever that is. JJ's not here, I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: so but that blue pillar masonry, whatever the French people
Speaker 3: were doing, that's what they would use. So you can
Speaker 3: tell there's like slight variations. And I don't know enough.
Speaker 3: Excuse me, I don't know enough about the Martinists to
Speaker 3: make like a even a couplistic judgment on like what
Speaker 3: they were doing or what they were thinking about. But
Speaker 3: just from what I understand, it seems to be a
Speaker 3: lot more pervasive than I think a lot of people
Speaker 3: talk about, and that it seems to be like an
Speaker 3: undercurrent within especially because we all speak English as our
Speaker 3: primary language, but in Anglophone occultism. That knowing that very
Speaker 3: few people do discuss Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a great great Bill Dodge and so yeah, I
Speaker 1: thought that was a very interesting connection. And just you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know much about the voodoo tradition, but it
Speaker 1: seems there's like a little resurgence of it because some
Speaker 1: parts of where I'm at, you know, near the water,
Speaker 1: I'll be driving by around you know, around the full
Speaker 1: moon or the new moon, I'm seeing you know, people
Speaker 1: in white in the water. You know, I don't know
Speaker 1: what they're doing, but yeah, they've actually found chickens and stuff,
Speaker 1: so I do know to do it. But yeah, there
Speaker 1: seems to be a little resurgent, the resurgence of that,
Speaker 1: especially like you said, Miami is a big hub Los
Speaker 1: Angeles and New York. But what I learned also, there's
Speaker 1: just so much ceremonial magic being done in the United
Speaker 1: States and it's related to voodoo.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I could talk.
Speaker 1: It was very interesting.
Speaker 2: A lot of root work and a lot of incense,
Speaker 2: not even so much that like tinctures or you know,
Speaker 2: taking herbs and sticking them into like oils or whatever.
Speaker 2: Basically root work kind of still the same thing that's
Speaker 2: used a lot. Like I've even said myself, depending on
Speaker 2: like you know, because I was big into like you know,
Speaker 2: I guess I was into herbs and oil. There was
Speaker 2: times where I would actually take voodoo, I guess recipes
Speaker 2: and incorporate that into my ceremonial magic, my rituals, even
Speaker 2: though I'm not necessarily practicing voodoo, if there was a
Speaker 2: way that I could look at it and align it
Speaker 2: with what I was aiming for, Like you know, if
Speaker 2: I was using a certain sphere on the tree, if
Speaker 2: I could figure out maybe if that kind of I
Speaker 2: might be using that same type of thing with these
Speaker 2: you know, herbs and oils, I would incorporate maybe, like
Speaker 2: you know, something from voodoo, like a voodoo recipe in
Speaker 2: a sense for a spell. And I know a lot
Speaker 2: of people that did that. There was I forgot the
Speaker 2: name of it, but there was even like some book
Speaker 2: that had like voodoo stuff like that, and it was
Speaker 2: kind of like real easy to read, that was like
Speaker 2: rather well known that went around the magical community. People
Speaker 2: would use the spells and stuff. But like again, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess you if you're a thlemic magician, you're gonna
Speaker 2: look at different practices and I'll try to figure out
Speaker 2: a way to I guess align it kabbalistically to use
Speaker 2: it yourself. So but I did that with voodoo at times.
Speaker 2: Long story short and I know plenty of people who
Speaker 2: have And another thing, you know, I did want to
Speaker 2: bring up. Maybe we can end with this question, hopefully.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of a deep question, but maybe
Speaker 2: we can, you know, summarize it rather quick. Who do
Speaker 2: and voodoo? I don't know if we do we I
Speaker 2: don't know if we kind of went on about this
Speaker 2: in the first one, but like, what would be the
Speaker 2: difference to you, Absidiarian, because in my opinion, I have
Speaker 2: heard that there's differences in it, and that I do
Speaker 2: think that the kind of is as well. I do
Speaker 2: think that one of them might actually hear more to
Speaker 2: a pantheon than the other one. What do you think, Absidarian?
Speaker 1: A very good question, if you don't mind me putting
Speaker 1: on the spot that no, that's fine. I'm not too
Speaker 1: familiar with Hulu, but I could still speak on it.
Speaker 1: I know voodoo the practice is you know, centered around
Speaker 1: you know, the West African tradition. But from what I understand,
Speaker 1: who Doo is just decentralized. It has no organized priesthood
Speaker 1: or structure, and it's like somewhat like a missmash of
Speaker 1: different practices. But unfortunately, I really don't know much about it.
Speaker 2: Gotcha.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Actually that's one thing it was. I was correct on
Speaker 2: the Vodo book. But there's one thing that I will
Speaker 2: say is that most of the stuff actually that I
Speaker 2: did use probably would have fell into whodoo tell you
Speaker 2: the truth? Uh? But jin you got any you got
Speaker 2: any ideas on that?
Speaker 3: Sure, I'll try and keep it concise, boss uh Uh?
Speaker 3: Who Do is basically American South. Yes, there is an
Speaker 3: overlapping influence but with voodoo. But voodoo is much more,
Speaker 3: as I said, localized to Haiti, and who Do also
Speaker 3: utilizes the Protestant exactly what we're talking about, like it
Speaker 3: utilizes that Protestant idea. In fact, the movie there's a
Speaker 3: movie Skeleton Key. I think they remade it. I've never
Speaker 3: seen the remake, but there's an original, and I think
Speaker 3: it's a It might actually be like a triplet like
Speaker 3: remade three times. But anyways, there's one from the early
Speaker 3: two thousands. It has a lot of real who Do
Speaker 3: in it. If you're interested in how that works, I
Speaker 3: suggest you go watch that movie. There is E've been
Speaker 3: a Saint Expedite statue in that film that's very prominent.
Speaker 3: Saint Expedite's very important even among Protestant who do practitioners,
Speaker 3: so because he can represent a crossroads man in some
Speaker 3: ways of thinking. So that's that, And so who do
Speaker 3: utilizes basically everything. The people who were running what they
Speaker 3: would call pharmacies in the nineteen forties were all Jewish,
Speaker 3: so then they started incorporating not just root work, but
Speaker 3: they started incorporating like psalms, kabbala, the Anarriva books, all
Speaker 3: of that. Taro like it just is that's it sort
Speaker 3: of was the genesis of what root work has become now.
Speaker 3: So that's that was That's kind of like Obeyah, it's
Speaker 3: kind of like Jamaican kind of magic, Like there is
Speaker 3: a Congolese element. There's an element of like working with
Speaker 3: the dead, spirits of the dead, controlling ghosts, maybe not
Speaker 3: to the same ritual degree. I know, you guys did
Speaker 3: the show on Adelfo Stanzo I want to call him, yes, okay, yes,
Speaker 3: So that so that there's an element of what as
Speaker 3: him as like whatever I know he was like a
Speaker 3: Satanist or whatever, but like the whatever Polaro he said
Speaker 3: he was doing, there's an element of that that is
Speaker 3: somewhat similar to what they are doing in Obea sometimes
Speaker 3: and who do sometimes, but maybe not to the advanced,
Speaker 3: like I don't think that they've maintained the tradition. It's
Speaker 3: not like some pristine African idea. So it's like a
Speaker 3: little degrade, it's a little more black magic. It's a
Speaker 3: little folk magic y that's not matter, that's not not
Speaker 3: any in judgment. So then voodoo is just adheres to
Speaker 3: the strict Maybe the cosmology is stricter. So there's one
Speaker 3: God though it is monotheistic, but he's unseen unheard. I
Speaker 3: think that's a big part of it, and he can
Speaker 3: only really be expressed in the trinitarian idea, so like
Speaker 3: the triangle with eye. And then then his main emanation
Speaker 3: on earth is don Balah. So if you've seen Chucky,
Speaker 3: you've heard that Dambala does not do that. In fact,
Speaker 3: he does not grant gross magical powers. It's for healing
Speaker 3: and great works I guess in the world like very powerful.
Speaker 3: So in different houses syncretize saints differently. So I know
Speaker 3: this has been a lot people get very bothered by
Speaker 3: the syncretism. But the syncretism to me actually follows quite
Speaker 3: a logical pattern for the most part, Like why you
Speaker 3: would align certain saints with certain spirits, and it's not
Speaker 3: really a mask or a cover I think it actually
Speaker 3: relates a lot more to the co holistic ideas or
Speaker 3: to the yeah, metaphysics of the actual spirit rather than
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a cover up. I think it's
Speaker 3: just using something. Yeah, you're exactly hermatic principles.
Speaker 2: Yeah you're pulling, You're pulling different ideas to represent the
Speaker 2: same thing. You know, one thing I was thinking that
Speaker 2: I did even want to add to maybe in a
Speaker 2: way that I should have said before, with the hoodoo
Speaker 2: and vudu, I think more or less like the way
Speaker 2: I looked at it is that let's say I was
Speaker 2: like I used like, you know, some root resimee, and
Speaker 2: I was putting you know, herbs and oils and all
Speaker 2: this stuff in there for some purpose. You know, I
Speaker 2: would voodoo. I'd be using it specifically let's say, Papa Legua,
Speaker 2: But now I'm going to use it for like Elo
Speaker 2: Him's mouth. So now it's like, you know, now it's
Speaker 2: like probably hudoo because it's that being specific to a pantheon,
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. But you're still trying to
Speaker 2: use that idea. You think like that could even be
Speaker 2: like another way to maybe explain the differences. It's more
Speaker 2: of like maybe like the magical practice and an actual
Speaker 2: set to those gods. I don't know.
Speaker 3: No, I agree with that, and I attributed l ab
Speaker 3: to him, So that's really funny that you say that. NH,
Speaker 3: but no, I agree.
Speaker 2: All right, Uh, I think we'll wrap it up here.
Speaker 2: I think we got a lot in and plus a
Speaker 2: man's gotta go. It's got important places to be. So
Speaker 2: thank you for Absidarian for even squeezing in the time.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Real quick, jin, do you want to
Speaker 2: plug your show real fast before we wrap this up again?
Speaker 3: Sure? Thank you guys, Nick, Lisa, Absidarian, amazing, really cool
Speaker 3: show as always follow me at with congri born my
Speaker 3: link Trees in the bottom threshold Saints Drizzle from Grand
Speaker 3: Theft Radio just dropped and that's it and we have
Speaker 3: more lots more coming.
Speaker 2: Up, lots. Thank you very much. You always appreciate you
Speaker 2: joining us. Lisa, Thank you very much again. I really
Speaker 2: appreciate you joining us tonight. Goodness, yes, yes, and Absdiari
Speaker 2: please let all the listeners know where they can find
Speaker 2: your work.
Speaker 1: Yes, thank you. I got a minute or two real quick.
Speaker 1: But I'm glad you mentioned Papa Legba because I did
Speaker 1: want to speak about him because it's a really interesting
Speaker 1: theme to me. Well, first off, for the listeners, in Voodoo,
Speaker 1: the loas are the major divine beings, intermediaries between man
Speaker 1: and you know, the all the realm. So Papa Legba
Speaker 1: is the loa associated with the crossroads. He serves as
Speaker 1: an intermediary between man and the spirit world. So this
Speaker 1: is the reminds me of Hermes right, and also in Obia,
Speaker 1: the obia man, the medicine man is you know, a
Speaker 1: bridge between the spiritual and physical realms. And in Hinduism
Speaker 1: you have Gannesh, which is the mercury archetype, and in
Speaker 1: Hindu rituals it's usually you start with with Ganesh to
Speaker 1: open things up. So I think that's a really good
Speaker 1: connection there, and you know deals with hermetic principles, so
Speaker 1: really interesting themes how to bridge the physical and spiritual.
Speaker 1: So I'll leave it at that. Thank you everyone for
Speaker 1: having me on again. You can find me on link
Speaker 1: tree at Absidarian Peace Liesome.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Absidaria. To just to even add
Speaker 2: to that, the way you explained Papa Legba, I even
Speaker 2: chose Elohim's mouth because he falls on a hode, which
Speaker 2: would be where Mercury and Hermes and Toath and the
Speaker 2: messages of the gods would fall, so there was even
Speaker 2: a correlation there. Thank you very much. I appreciate it again. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you want to check out gin stuff, you want
Speaker 2: to check out Absidarian stuff, and you want to check
Speaker 2: out Cult Research Institute dot org, the links are at
Speaker 2: the bottom. Thank you well again and until the next one,
Speaker 2: everybody be well. Later