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In case of 12 00:00:22.039 --> 00:00:25.399 accellent ingestion or over consumption, contact the National Poison Control Center. 13 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:27.239 Consumer Responsibly. 14 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:34.920 Okay, Round two. 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True Murder with 29 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:38.079 your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 30 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:52.719 Good Evening. This episode of True Murder is brought to 31 00:01:52.760 --> 00:01:57.640 you by Audible, the world's leading name in digital audiobooks. 32 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.959 On at nineteen eighty nine, in a lonely place off 33 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:07.879 Florida's Interstate ninety five, fifty one year old Richard Mallory 34 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:11.560 shuddered under the impact of four twenty two caliber slugs 35 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:15.199 being pumped into him by a naked, hard faced, blonde hooker. 36 00:02:16.199 --> 00:02:19.680 While he suffered a slow, agonizing death, she stripped him 37 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:21.960 of his valuables and drove his Cadillac back to the 38 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:26.719 motel where her lesbian lover was waiting. In nineteen ninety 39 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:29.960 her killing spree kicked into high gear, with three men 40 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:32.960 slain in as many weeks. Of the six of her 41 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:36.360 seven male victims whose bodies were found somewhere nude, all 42 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:41.240 had been shot dead and robbed. In January nineteen ninety one, 43 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:45.000 pawnshop records led to the rest of Aileen Carol Warnos, 44 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:49.840 thirty five, a KA Lee. An abusive, alcoholic man hater 45 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:54.719 with a murderous hair trigger temper. Wernos began prostituting herself 46 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:57.960 at age twelve for cigarettes and beer. At fifteen, she 47 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:00.960 bore an illegitimate child. At sixteen, she took to the 48 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.599 highways as a hitchhiking hooker. In nineteen eighty six, with 49 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:07.240 a lengthy rap sheet and prison term under her belt, 50 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.639 she entered into a relationship with Tyra Moore twenty four. 51 00:03:11.319 --> 00:03:14.879 Tired of turning twenty dollars tricks, Warno's decided to rob 52 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:19.159 her customers of everything they had, including their lives. Her 53 00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:23.479 rest in trial prompted a worldwide media frenzy. Ultimately, Warnos 54 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:27.719 received six separate death sentences. Here is the definitive account 55 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:31.680 of a killer who confounded the profiling experts, forever changing 56 00:03:31.719 --> 00:03:35.240 their concepts of the crimes of which a woman is capable. 57 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:38.520 The book that we're featuring this evening is Lethal Intent, 58 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.919 with my special guest, journalist and author Sue Russell. Welcome 59 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:44.680 back to the program, and thank you very much for 60 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:45.599 greeing this interview. 61 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:50.280 Sue Russell, Hi, Dan, nice to speak to you again. 62 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:51.199 Thank you. 63 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:53.960 Yes, it's been a long time. It's been a long time. 64 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:58.199 Thank you very much, and congratulations on the new updated 65 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:02.120 version of your book now available in ebook, published on demand, 66 00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:06.400 audio book and a new updated version, So congratulations on 67 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:07.520 the release of that. 68 00:04:08.319 --> 00:04:10.680 Yes, thanks, it was nice to have a chance to 69 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:13.960 take another look at it and do a sort of 70 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:20.480 update of the last decade because the last edition that 71 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.800 I wrote came out just before her execution, so that 72 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:27.720 wasn't in lethal intention till now, and the sort of 73 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:30.959 legal dramas leading up to it weren't in the book either, 74 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.519 and of course nor was the sort of legacy since 75 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:38.279 her execution, So it was nice to have the opportunity 76 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:40.040 to do an update, that's for sure. 77 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.680 Yes, it's a was a ever evolving story, right and 78 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:50.480 still to this day, a legacy lives on. So it's 79 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:54.160 an incredible story that has has a life of its own, 80 00:04:54.959 --> 00:05:01.839 and thanks to now's get right into this for our 81 00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:07.360 international audience that isn't so familiar with the Aileen Warnos 82 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:12.959 case and this story, let's go back to and really 83 00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:17.759 paint a portrait of who Aileen Warnos, because if anyone knows, 84 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:22.199 based on the research that you've done over all these 85 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:26.759 years and living with this story. Certainly you know who 86 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:30.160 Aileen Warnos really was and where she really came from, 87 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:35.680 So tell us starting with her father is very interesting 88 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:40.759 the again the genetic background of this person and where 89 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:44.720 he is and yees. So anyways, let's talk about Leo 90 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.240 Pittman and let's let's go back to her father. 91 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:52.959 Absolutely, yes, well, Leo Pittman is Eileen's birth father, but 92 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:59.959 she never met him. His parents, Diane Warnos and Leo Pittman, 93 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:06.759 were separated before Eileen's birth, and in fact, Diane left 94 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:12.120 Eileen and her brother Keith eighteen years age difference between 95 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:16.199 them with the grandparents twice during the first two years 96 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:19.600 of Eileen's life. So there was that abandonment thing going on. 97 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:24.319 But meanwhile, Leo had a bit of a criminal bench, 98 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:29.759 shall we say, and he really came undone as he 99 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:33.160 should have done, of course, when he abducted a seven 100 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:36.399 year old girl from outside of school, took her in 101 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:41.160 his car, took her across state lines, raped her, drove 102 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:44.720 her back, and left her outside the school. Sort of 103 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:48.040 strange bit of courtesy there mixed in with a completely 104 00:06:48.120 --> 00:06:51.879 heinous crime. Very odd, but anyway, we're glad the little 105 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:54.399 girl was taken back to the school, but she was 106 00:06:54.680 --> 00:06:59.800 and when she had to testify against her attacker, and 107 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:04.360 when she saw him, she broke out him Weltz all 108 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.040 over her skin. You know, it was just a very 109 00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:11.839 visceral reaction. So Leo Pittman was put away now like Eileen, 110 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:16.439 who of course they didn't know each other, but he 111 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:20.560 also committed a capital crime, because kidnapping and rape across 112 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:25.319 state lines was a capital crime, probably still is. And 113 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:31.040 so quite independently, these two people who never met committed 114 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:35.879 capital offenses. I think that's pretty interesting, don't you, Dan, Yes. 115 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:39.120 And then the other similarity, and that is a striking 116 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:42.079 one and probably a telling one, is that Leo was 117 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.360 also abandoned by his parents and raised by his grandparents 118 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:45.839 as well. 119 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:49.480 Yes, he had a rough he had a rough background. 120 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:52.199 And you know, then just to return to Leah Pittman, 121 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.800 I mean, ultimately he posed as pretended to be mentally 122 00:07:56.800 --> 00:07:59.720 ill at one point and got in a mental hospital. 123 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:01.800 Then I think was back in prison. I do have 124 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:07.079 the FBI records somewhere, and you know, and ultimately he 125 00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:10.399 killed himself in prison. So there came a point when 126 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:12.879 even if Eileen had wanted to look him up, she 127 00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.680 couldn't have done because he took his own life. So 128 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.199 that was, you know, a rocky start to any child's life. 129 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:22.519 All that going on in the background, even though she 130 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:27.160 may not have been aware of it, the waves in families, 131 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:33.519 the emotional turmoil, the discord, and in the case of 132 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:36.960 the grandparents that she was living with with her brother Keith, 133 00:08:38.519 --> 00:08:43.480 a lot of abuse there too, in terms of the 134 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:48.840 grandfather would take her leather belt to Eileen, and there 135 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:53.120 was a lot of verbal abuse, and both grandparents had 136 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:57.480 alcohol issues, so it was, you know, it was not 137 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.000 a happy home. But it was an odd home because 138 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:08.480 the grandparents had two other children. Diane Warnoffs had siblings, Laurie, 139 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:11.399 who be with my wife and mother and I met 140 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:14.080 her when I was writing the book, and Barry brother 141 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:17.559 who also got married, et cetera and had kids. But 142 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:24.799 you know, the Laurie and Barry, well, Barry had kind 143 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.039 of left home, but Laurie was still in the home 144 00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:30.080 when Eileen and Keith were brought into the home. So 145 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.639 it was one of those odd family arrangements where they 146 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:38.080 were known as the grandparents. Wouldn't sort of call them 147 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:42.639 their children, but they were really their grandparents and Laurie 148 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:46.200 called them her siblings, but she was really their aunt. 149 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:48.360 If we can follow that, you're a better man than 150 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:51.799 I am. It's a bit convoluted, isn't it. Sorry, I 151 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:56.519 hope you can keep up with that. Yeah, so it 152 00:09:56.679 --> 00:10:02.039 was a dysfunctional household to say them. And you know, 153 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:05.840 there's no question Dan that she was abused. For any 154 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.000 child I think to be selling sex and charging for 155 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:13.799 sex and charging a packet of cigarettes or thirty five 156 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.399 cents for a sexual act at age eleven, you know, 157 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:23.759 we can assume that there was sexual abuse in there somewhere. 158 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:27.480 It's hard to know who was the perpetrator with Eileen 159 00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:31.600 because her stories changed on everything, just literally back and forth, 160 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:33.799 back and forth. So at the end of the day, 161 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:38.080 I can't tell you definitively you know who did abuse her, 162 00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:41.120 but there's no doubt in my mind that she was abused. 163 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:47.200 Now, the interesting thing is that you talk about, you know, 164 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:50.000 selling sex at a very very young age, but we're 165 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:53.960 not talking about any kind of big aspirations like you 166 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:56.279 say for a packet of cigarettes. And what I thought 167 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:00.000 was just sad was the the nickname that you had 168 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:03.440 or a cigarette pig. So you can see that this 169 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.159 was all about, yes, you know, a desperate attempt to 170 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.200 get some kind of attention. So she certainly wasn't the 171 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:12.919 most popular girl. In fact, she was the one was 172 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:15.679 left out of a lot of things. You tell a 173 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.759 story about how at an early age she managed to 174 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:21.360 arrange a party at the home and then the people 175 00:11:21.679 --> 00:11:23.360 came over to the party, but then kicked her out 176 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:24.720 and let her stay in the backyard. 177 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:27.440 So I know, I. 178 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:29.960 Want bad stories like that, a lot. 179 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.840 Of sad stories like that. And yes, to think the 180 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.440 other kids, you know who, even those who were having 181 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:38.879 sex with her called her cigarette pig, you know, and 182 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.399 they wouldn't admit to one another that they were having 183 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:44.440 sex with her, So it was yes, they wanted the sex, 184 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:46.919 but they were ashamed to say they were having sex 185 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:52.919 with her. And basically she was denigrated in every way, 186 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:58.600 so very very sad, and she was very isolated. And 187 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.759 she had this explosive temper which we've talked about before, Dan, 188 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:08.279 which really hampered her ability to fit into life as 189 00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:12.200 other people do you know, she would just blow up 190 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:16.799 out of nowhere, and others were afraid of her. They 191 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:19.120 didn't want to be around her, they didn't want to 192 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.519 be near her, and you never knew when she was 193 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:25.360 going to fly off the handle about something. And one 194 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:29.159 time there was a babysitting incident where she approached her 195 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.639 sister Laurie, who was doing the babysitting, and held a 196 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.159 kitchen knife to her throat. You know, this kind of 197 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:40.159 thing meant that, of course people stayed away from her. 198 00:12:40.919 --> 00:12:43.840 They were afraid of what would happen if they got 199 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:48.000 too involved with her. And you know, yes, she was scary, 200 00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:53.120 I think to even her own sister slash aunt. 201 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:57.360 Now, her family life was horrible and living in the 202 00:12:57.399 --> 00:13:00.879 neighborhood wasn't much better in terms of getting any kind 203 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:04.200 of respect. And I think, which is of course is 204 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:07.519 obvious and very important to anyone, but especially alien Warno's 205 00:13:07.559 --> 00:13:11.879 attention and love and which she wasn't getting from her home. 206 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:14.720 Had never met her father, so it was lacking in 207 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.399 her family unit. What I thought was very interesting too, 208 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:22.279 is part of the characteristic was that how promiscuous she 209 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:26.600 really was at a young age. Again, you did the research, 210 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.960 and so there was an account of a friend, the 211 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:34.279 neighborhood friend, actually witnessing her having sex with her brother. 212 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:38.840 So she had sex. She was very promiscuous and that 213 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:43.600 will lead to you know, her decisions later in life 214 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:45.639 as she gets a little bit older, she kind of 215 00:13:45.639 --> 00:13:49.320 turns around this sort of to at least it's to 216 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:53.759 a certain degree. Anyway, the idea that you know, she 217 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:59.399 is very promiscuous, very interested in sex, and is constantly 218 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:03.279 negotiate at an early age, and I thought she was 219 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:04.200 as interested. 220 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.720 Don't you think she was as interested in the money 221 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:10.200 as she was in the sex, Dan, I do, really. 222 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.440 I think it was kind of currency for her. It 223 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:15.799 was something she could offer that would either get her, 224 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:21.200 she thought, companionships friendship, or be you know, buying beer, 225 00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:24.600 which was her other way to get the companionship and friendship. 226 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:27.919 I don't know how much of it, especially you know 227 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.679 at age eleven, twelve thirty, was for the sex for 228 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.919 sex sake. I don't know how much of it was 229 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:38.200 her actual sexual appetite. I honestly don't know, but I 230 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:42.080 know that you know, she was desperate to be accepted, 231 00:14:42.279 --> 00:14:46.919 and you know, as you know, her peer pressure, et cetera, 232 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:50.240 she was particularly vulnerable I think, to that kind of 233 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.279 thing happening, and because she'd had some exposure to it 234 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:56.200 in another environment, which as I've admitted to you, I 235 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.679 simply do not know. I mean, at different times she 236 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:02.320 cited and they the hood man and Elvis look alike, 237 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:06.799 a truck driver who stopped over her grandfather, one of 238 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.720 the neighborhood boys, and then she would go back and 239 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:13.879 you know, she named her rapist as all these different 240 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.919 people and kept changing her story. So I can't tell 241 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.159 you who did it, but we know somebody did so 242 00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.399 by then, you know, she'd lost her virginity, and I 243 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:27.559 think it was it was, you know, a way to 244 00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.600 engage with people in a way. To me, that was 245 00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:34.000 the feeling I was left with that as much as 246 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.240 a sex drive, it had as much to do with 247 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:40.720 this wish for money, which carried on through the rest 248 00:15:40.720 --> 00:15:42.600 of her life, because she saw it as a way 249 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.799 of buying friends, you know, as you mentioned that very poignant. 250 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:49.639 You know, she threw a party and then she was 251 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:55.440 booted out of it herself, but she saw money as 252 00:15:55.919 --> 00:15:58.600 a way to try to improve her life. I think 253 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:00.799 that makes sense. 254 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.559 Well what I mean, I think I misspoke with the 255 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:09.360 promiscuous promiscuity. It's really something like you said, that she 256 00:16:09.480 --> 00:16:11.879 had to offer. She really didn't have much to offer. 257 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.879 Desperate to have a friend, to have a confidant, to 258 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:18.519 have family and familydso. 259 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.879 And actually she was desperate to have a boyfriend. I 260 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:25.480 mean Mark Fern, one of the men I interviewed. You know, 261 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:30.039 she was very very keen to have him as her boyfriend, 262 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:32.240 you know, that kind of thing. And of course she 263 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:35.480 never did have him as her boyfriend, and never did 264 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.919 have any of those other boys as her boyfriend. And 265 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:43.039 other local girls had boyfriends, so she was left out 266 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:47.639 of that as well. If you look at it, I 267 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.600 sort of liken it to a stack of dominoes, you know, 268 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:54.200 you line them up and eventually there's so many of 269 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:57.799 them that they just start tipping. And all these strikes 270 00:16:57.879 --> 00:17:00.840 against her. You know, she had a hearing problem and 271 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.639 that was never really addressed. Her grandmother didn't take her 272 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.720 to the doctor. And I don't know how much she 273 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.240 struggled in school, but there's every reason to think she did. 274 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:15.240 A teacher wrote in one school report, this child needs help. Now. 275 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:21.920 That was ignored, but someone noticed that something was wrong. 276 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.039 You know, there were just all these sort of opportunities 277 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:30.920 that were missed, I suppose, and in a very dysfunctional family. 278 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:33.119 And then of course when her brother Keith died of 279 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:36.319 cancer at age twenty one. That was a terrible blow 280 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:42.200 to her. Her grandmother died alcoholism, we think, but certainly 281 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.799 she was, you know, a sort of closet alcoholic, it 282 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:51.039 turned out, you know, certainly drinking heavily. But I think 283 00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.119 many around her have used the term alcoholic. And then 284 00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:58.279 the grandfather, you know, who took his own life ultimately, 285 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.960 so you know, there's suicide around her, there's alcoholism. There's 286 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:10.279 just nothing that is sort of life affirming. Really, let's take. 287 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.720 It back just a little bit too. I think again, 288 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:15.480 another really crucial time in her life. Not that all 289 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:18.920 of these events don't have this definite negative impact, but 290 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:22.079 as we mentioned in the introduction, that she had a 291 00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:25.960 child that I think fifteen years of age. Tell us what, 292 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.319 you know, some back in the good old days, people 293 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:32.559 didn't react so well, and maybe they don't react so 294 00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:35.759 well today. But what was the their you know, Laurie, 295 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:41.000 and what was the grandparent's reaction to tell us about that? 296 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:45.680 He was furious, and he was absolutely livid. She hid 297 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.599 it quite well for quite a long time. Her sister 298 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:52.319 recognized it first, and then you know, there was a 299 00:18:52.359 --> 00:18:56.759 confession to the grandmother. But Lowry was absolutely furious and 300 00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:59.480 she was packed off to an onword mother's home and 301 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:02.440 she gave birth to the baby. And as for the 302 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:06.480 grandfather's instructions, I understand that she was never allowed to 303 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:10.039 hold the baby. It was taken away immediately. He was 304 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:14.839 taken away. It was a boy and put out for adoption, 305 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:20.319 and somewhere he's out there wondering, you know, probably completely 306 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.319 unaware that his mother is Eileen Warnos. You know his 307 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.480 birth mother is Eileen Warnos, because all those records are sealed. 308 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:33.640 But Eileen then went home again and she everything escalated 309 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.759 with the grandfather and he threw her out, and you know, 310 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.559 she's pretty soon afterwards she was living in the woods. 311 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.960 And that was the period in her life when her 312 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:47.039 friend Dawn Bopkins, who came back into her life during 313 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:52.200 the death row years, was a good friend to her 314 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:57.640 and her only real close friend. I think so. But 315 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:01.400 you know, she would sleep in cars, in people's driveways, 316 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:06.000 in trailers, in people campus in people's driveways with permission, 317 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:10.160 you know, or in the woods. And god, if you've 318 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.200 been Commichigan in the winter where you're Canadian, you should know, 319 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:18.960 you know, we're talking about some pretty miserable freezing conditions there. 320 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.519 I don't know how she got through it all, and 321 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:25.440 certain people did try to help her, but but you 322 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:30.319 know what a life really yeah, and some of the. 323 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:35.039 So sorry, so some of the people that she was 324 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:39.480 According to Don Blakins, what were the kind of people 325 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.240 and the kind of things that she was gravitating towards 326 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.200 at that time when she was still young, still a teenager, 327 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:50.039 living in the woods, living up from her wits, basically 328 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:53.640 from the you know, the goodness of some people are 329 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:57.519 giving her a shower, getting understanding her situation and feeling 330 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:01.680 sorry for her. What did this grab it? What did 331 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:03.680 she move towards in this time? 332 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:09.079 Well? I think, you know, she was then irretrievably on 333 00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:13.119 the path to a life of prostitution. You know, she 334 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:18.000 wasn't She didn't have the schooling, she didn't have the qualifications, 335 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:22.240 she didn't have the grooming, she didn't have the social 336 00:21:22.359 --> 00:21:26.559 skills because of her other anger issues, et cetera to 337 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.240 really enter the workforce. Didn't really have much of a chance, 338 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:35.079 did she so a prostitution. I think maybe she could 339 00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:37.920 have got a job in a McDonald's or a Pizza 340 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.839 Heart or something, you know, where she didn't need to 341 00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:45.759 be able to, you know, have a college degree or 342 00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.480 any of the other kind of loftier qualifications. She could 343 00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:53.279 have perhaps got that kind of job, But I personally 344 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.680 feel she wouldn't have lasted very long because I can't 345 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.400 see her dealing with the customers, you know, I think 346 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:01.039 she'd have been throwing something at some boy pretty quickly. 347 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.920 So what do we go back to? You know, what 348 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:08.000 she started out with. She could always make a buck 349 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:11.359 with the prostitution. It came at a high price. I'm 350 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.200 sure she was raped multiple times. I don't, as you know, 351 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.319 believe it was by those men on those days when she. 352 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:24.920 Okay Brown two, name something that's not boring, laundry, a 353 00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:31.039 book club, computer solitaire. Huh oh, Sorry, we were looking 354 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:36.440 for chumba casino to chum. 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But I do believe she was rped 372 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.279 multiple times, as many prostitutes are, and I think when 373 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:36.640 she was young, this was probably a pretty productive financially 374 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:40.359 for her. But by the time we get to the 375 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:44.240 year of the murders, she was, you know, mid thirties, 376 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:51.440 and that's getting older for a prostitute, I think, And 377 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.880 you know, she'd led a hard life and it showed 378 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:58.440 and it was getting harder for her. But in those 379 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:04.799 early days, I think that that's probably what she fell 380 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:09.039 back on. I don't know what else she could have done. Really. 381 00:24:09.160 --> 00:24:11.000 There was some talk of her going for a job 382 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.759 interview or two. I tried to follow up with a 383 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:17.240 company where she supposedly interviewed for a job, but they 384 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:20.160 didn't have any records. It was too long ago, et cetera. 385 00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:24.000 I never actually came up with any job she'd actually 386 00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:29.440 ever held other than the prostitution and interviewing men who 387 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:33.279 she'd been with, et cetera. So as far as I know, 388 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:38.480 that was pretty much Yet. Now, Dawn always has said 389 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.880 I didn't interview Dawn personally. But Dawn always has said 390 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.920 that she didn't know Eileen was a prostitute when she 391 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:50.119 was in school and was turning up with this money. 392 00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:52.200 She just knew she would disappear for a while and 393 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:54.559 come back with money, and then they'd go buy beer 394 00:24:54.680 --> 00:24:58.839 or whatever. So she was secretive about it too, you know, 395 00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:05.279 so there was probably some shame around it. I'm sure. 396 00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.759 Now she is this again. We'll have to categorize this 397 00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:14.079 the way it characterizes us, the way it really is. 398 00:25:14.119 --> 00:25:19.279 She's a very small time prostitute. She's not what you 399 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:21.519 might classify as a sex trade worker or an escort. 400 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:25.519 And some of this is also characterized by other things 401 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:32.160