Speaker 1: We're outside the travel Agency, a cannabis store that's got
Speaker 1: everyone buzz them.
Speaker 2: I walked it.
Speaker 3: I felt like I was in the elite of the skies,
Speaker 3: like I'm about to get elevated and lifted in the
Speaker 3: best way. Got the important essential things. I need sleep,
Speaker 3: So tinctures styles to relax my body, right the best
Speaker 3: New York Flowers.
Speaker 1: Come down to the travel Agency and see for yourself.
Speaker 1: Freeze only by adults age twenty one an older. Keep
Speaker 1: out of reach of children and pets. In case of
Speaker 1: accellent ingestion or over consumption, contact the National Poison Control Center.
Speaker 1: Consumer Responsibly.
Speaker 4: Okay, Round two. Name something that's not boring laundry, a
Speaker 4: book club, computer solitaire.
Speaker 5: Huh oh, Sorry, we were looking for Chumbu Casino Jump.
Speaker 5: That's right, Chumbuck Casino dot com as over one hundred
Speaker 5: casino style games joined today and play for free for
Speaker 5: your chance to redeem some serious prizes.
Speaker 4: Chump Chumbucasino dot com plusters the conditions of the blue
Speaker 4: website retails.
Speaker 2: Lap Tabian.
Speaker 6: You are now listening to true murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them.
Speaker 7: Gasey Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 6: Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good Evening. This episode of True Murder is brought to
Speaker 7: you by Audible, the world's leading name in digital audiobooks.
Speaker 7: On at nineteen eighty nine, in a lonely place off
Speaker 7: Florida's Interstate ninety five, fifty one year old Richard Mallory
Speaker 7: shuddered under the impact of four twenty two caliber slugs
Speaker 7: being pumped into him by a naked, hard faced, blonde hooker.
Speaker 7: While he suffered a slow, agonizing death, she stripped him
Speaker 7: of his valuables and drove his Cadillac back to the
Speaker 7: motel where her lesbian lover was waiting. In nineteen ninety
Speaker 7: her killing spree kicked into high gear, with three men
Speaker 7: slain in as many weeks. Of the six of her
Speaker 7: seven male victims whose bodies were found somewhere nude, all
Speaker 7: had been shot dead and robbed. In January nineteen ninety one,
Speaker 7: pawnshop records led to the rest of Aileen Carol Warnos,
Speaker 7: thirty five, a KA Lee. An abusive, alcoholic man hater
Speaker 7: with a murderous hair trigger temper. Wernos began prostituting herself
Speaker 7: at age twelve for cigarettes and beer. At fifteen, she
Speaker 7: bore an illegitimate child. At sixteen, she took to the
Speaker 7: highways as a hitchhiking hooker. In nineteen eighty six, with
Speaker 7: a lengthy rap sheet and prison term under her belt,
Speaker 7: she entered into a relationship with Tyra Moore twenty four.
Speaker 7: Tired of turning twenty dollars tricks, Warno's decided to rob
Speaker 7: her customers of everything they had, including their lives. Her
Speaker 7: rest in trial prompted a worldwide media frenzy. Ultimately, Warnos
Speaker 7: received six separate death sentences. Here is the definitive account
Speaker 7: of a killer who confounded the profiling experts, forever changing
Speaker 7: their concepts of the crimes of which a woman is capable.
Speaker 7: The book that we're featuring this evening is Lethal Intent,
Speaker 7: with my special guest, journalist and author Sue Russell. Welcome
Speaker 7: back to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 7: greeing this interview.
Speaker 2: Sue Russell, Hi, Dan, nice to speak to you again.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 7: Yes, it's been a long time. It's been a long time.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, and congratulations on the new updated
Speaker 7: version of your book now available in ebook, published on demand,
Speaker 7: audio book and a new updated version, So congratulations on
Speaker 7: the release of that.
Speaker 2: Yes, thanks, it was nice to have a chance to
Speaker 2: take another look at it and do a sort of
Speaker 2: update of the last decade because the last edition that
Speaker 2: I wrote came out just before her execution, so that
Speaker 2: wasn't in lethal intention till now, and the sort of
Speaker 2: legal dramas leading up to it weren't in the book either,
Speaker 2: and of course nor was the sort of legacy since
Speaker 2: her execution, So it was nice to have the opportunity
Speaker 2: to do an update, that's for sure.
Speaker 7: Yes, it's a was a ever evolving story, right and
Speaker 7: still to this day, a legacy lives on. So it's
Speaker 7: an incredible story that has has a life of its own,
Speaker 7: and thanks to now's get right into this for our
Speaker 7: international audience that isn't so familiar with the Aileen Warnos
Speaker 7: case and this story, let's go back to and really
Speaker 7: paint a portrait of who Aileen Warnos, because if anyone knows,
Speaker 7: based on the research that you've done over all these
Speaker 7: years and living with this story. Certainly you know who
Speaker 7: Aileen Warnos really was and where she really came from,
Speaker 7: So tell us starting with her father is very interesting
Speaker 7: the again the genetic background of this person and where
Speaker 7: he is and yees. So anyways, let's talk about Leo
Speaker 7: Pittman and let's let's go back to her father.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, well, Leo Pittman is Eileen's birth father, but
Speaker 2: she never met him. His parents, Diane Warnos and Leo Pittman,
Speaker 2: were separated before Eileen's birth, and in fact, Diane left
Speaker 2: Eileen and her brother Keith eighteen years age difference between
Speaker 2: them with the grandparents twice during the first two years
Speaker 2: of Eileen's life. So there was that abandonment thing going on.
Speaker 2: But meanwhile, Leo had a bit of a criminal bench,
Speaker 2: shall we say, and he really came undone as he
Speaker 2: should have done, of course, when he abducted a seven
Speaker 2: year old girl from outside of school, took her in
Speaker 2: his car, took her across state lines, raped her, drove
Speaker 2: her back, and left her outside the school. Sort of
Speaker 2: strange bit of courtesy there mixed in with a completely
Speaker 2: heinous crime. Very odd, but anyway, we're glad the little
Speaker 2: girl was taken back to the school, but she was
Speaker 2: and when she had to testify against her attacker, and
Speaker 2: when she saw him, she broke out him Weltz all
Speaker 2: over her skin. You know, it was just a very
Speaker 2: visceral reaction. So Leo Pittman was put away now like Eileen,
Speaker 2: who of course they didn't know each other, but he
Speaker 2: also committed a capital crime, because kidnapping and rape across
Speaker 2: state lines was a capital crime, probably still is. And
Speaker 2: so quite independently, these two people who never met committed
Speaker 2: capital offenses. I think that's pretty interesting, don't you, Dan, Yes.
Speaker 7: And then the other similarity, and that is a striking
Speaker 7: one and probably a telling one, is that Leo was
Speaker 7: also abandoned by his parents and raised by his grandparents
Speaker 7: as well.
Speaker 2: Yes, he had a rough he had a rough background.
Speaker 2: And you know, then just to return to Leah Pittman,
Speaker 2: I mean, ultimately he posed as pretended to be mentally
Speaker 2: ill at one point and got in a mental hospital.
Speaker 2: Then I think was back in prison. I do have
Speaker 2: the FBI records somewhere, and you know, and ultimately he
Speaker 2: killed himself in prison. So there came a point when
Speaker 2: even if Eileen had wanted to look him up, she
Speaker 2: couldn't have done because he took his own life. So
Speaker 2: that was, you know, a rocky start to any child's life.
Speaker 2: All that going on in the background, even though she
Speaker 2: may not have been aware of it, the waves in families,
Speaker 2: the emotional turmoil, the discord, and in the case of
Speaker 2: the grandparents that she was living with with her brother Keith,
Speaker 2: a lot of abuse there too, in terms of the
Speaker 2: grandfather would take her leather belt to Eileen, and there
Speaker 2: was a lot of verbal abuse, and both grandparents had
Speaker 2: alcohol issues, so it was, you know, it was not
Speaker 2: a happy home. But it was an odd home because
Speaker 2: the grandparents had two other children. Diane Warnoffs had siblings, Laurie,
Speaker 2: who be with my wife and mother and I met
Speaker 2: her when I was writing the book, and Barry brother
Speaker 2: who also got married, et cetera and had kids. But
Speaker 2: you know, the Laurie and Barry, well, Barry had kind
Speaker 2: of left home, but Laurie was still in the home
Speaker 2: when Eileen and Keith were brought into the home. So
Speaker 2: it was one of those odd family arrangements where they
Speaker 2: were known as the grandparents. Wouldn't sort of call them
Speaker 2: their children, but they were really their grandparents and Laurie
Speaker 2: called them her siblings, but she was really their aunt.
Speaker 2: If we can follow that, you're a better man than
Speaker 2: I am. It's a bit convoluted, isn't it. Sorry, I
Speaker 2: hope you can keep up with that. Yeah, so it
Speaker 2: was a dysfunctional household to say them. And you know,
Speaker 2: there's no question Dan that she was abused. For any
Speaker 2: child I think to be selling sex and charging for
Speaker 2: sex and charging a packet of cigarettes or thirty five
Speaker 2: cents for a sexual act at age eleven, you know,
Speaker 2: we can assume that there was sexual abuse in there somewhere.
Speaker 2: It's hard to know who was the perpetrator with Eileen
Speaker 2: because her stories changed on everything, just literally back and forth,
Speaker 2: back and forth. So at the end of the day,
Speaker 2: I can't tell you definitively you know who did abuse her,
Speaker 2: but there's no doubt in my mind that she was abused.
Speaker 7: Now, the interesting thing is that you talk about, you know,
Speaker 7: selling sex at a very very young age, but we're
Speaker 7: not talking about any kind of big aspirations like you
Speaker 7: say for a packet of cigarettes. And what I thought
Speaker 7: was just sad was the the nickname that you had
Speaker 7: or a cigarette pig. So you can see that this
Speaker 7: was all about, yes, you know, a desperate attempt to
Speaker 7: get some kind of attention. So she certainly wasn't the
Speaker 7: most popular girl. In fact, she was the one was
Speaker 7: left out of a lot of things. You tell a
Speaker 7: story about how at an early age she managed to
Speaker 7: arrange a party at the home and then the people
Speaker 7: came over to the party, but then kicked her out
Speaker 7: and let her stay in the backyard.
Speaker 2: So I know, I.
Speaker 7: Want bad stories like that, a lot.
Speaker 2: Of sad stories like that. And yes, to think the
Speaker 2: other kids, you know who, even those who were having
Speaker 2: sex with her called her cigarette pig, you know, and
Speaker 2: they wouldn't admit to one another that they were having
Speaker 2: sex with her, So it was yes, they wanted the sex,
Speaker 2: but they were ashamed to say they were having sex
Speaker 2: with her. And basically she was denigrated in every way,
Speaker 2: so very very sad, and she was very isolated. And
Speaker 2: she had this explosive temper which we've talked about before, Dan,
Speaker 2: which really hampered her ability to fit into life as
Speaker 2: other people do you know, she would just blow up
Speaker 2: out of nowhere, and others were afraid of her. They
Speaker 2: didn't want to be around her, they didn't want to
Speaker 2: be near her, and you never knew when she was
Speaker 2: going to fly off the handle about something. And one
Speaker 2: time there was a babysitting incident where she approached her
Speaker 2: sister Laurie, who was doing the babysitting, and held a
Speaker 2: kitchen knife to her throat. You know, this kind of
Speaker 2: thing meant that, of course people stayed away from her.
Speaker 2: They were afraid of what would happen if they got
Speaker 2: too involved with her. And you know, yes, she was scary,
Speaker 2: I think to even her own sister slash aunt.
Speaker 7: Now, her family life was horrible and living in the
Speaker 7: neighborhood wasn't much better in terms of getting any kind
Speaker 7: of respect. And I think, which is of course is
Speaker 7: obvious and very important to anyone, but especially alien Warno's
Speaker 7: attention and love and which she wasn't getting from her home.
Speaker 7: Had never met her father, so it was lacking in
Speaker 7: her family unit. What I thought was very interesting too,
Speaker 7: is part of the characteristic was that how promiscuous she
Speaker 7: really was at a young age. Again, you did the research,
Speaker 7: and so there was an account of a friend, the
Speaker 7: neighborhood friend, actually witnessing her having sex with her brother.
Speaker 7: So she had sex. She was very promiscuous and that
Speaker 7: will lead to you know, her decisions later in life
Speaker 7: as she gets a little bit older, she kind of
Speaker 7: turns around this sort of to at least it's to
Speaker 7: a certain degree. Anyway, the idea that you know, she
Speaker 7: is very promiscuous, very interested in sex, and is constantly
Speaker 7: negotiate at an early age, and I thought she was
Speaker 7: as interested.
Speaker 2: Don't you think she was as interested in the money
Speaker 2: as she was in the sex, Dan, I do, really.
Speaker 2: I think it was kind of currency for her. It
Speaker 2: was something she could offer that would either get her,
Speaker 2: she thought, companionships friendship, or be you know, buying beer,
Speaker 2: which was her other way to get the companionship and friendship.
Speaker 2: I don't know how much of it, especially you know
Speaker 2: at age eleven, twelve thirty, was for the sex for
Speaker 2: sex sake. I don't know how much of it was
Speaker 2: her actual sexual appetite. I honestly don't know, but I
Speaker 2: know that you know, she was desperate to be accepted,
Speaker 2: and you know, as you know, her peer pressure, et cetera,
Speaker 2: she was particularly vulnerable I think, to that kind of
Speaker 2: thing happening, and because she'd had some exposure to it
Speaker 2: in another environment, which as I've admitted to you, I
Speaker 2: simply do not know. I mean, at different times she
Speaker 2: cited and they the hood man and Elvis look alike,
Speaker 2: a truck driver who stopped over her grandfather, one of
Speaker 2: the neighborhood boys, and then she would go back and
Speaker 2: you know, she named her rapist as all these different
Speaker 2: people and kept changing her story. So I can't tell
Speaker 2: you who did it, but we know somebody did so
Speaker 2: by then, you know, she'd lost her virginity, and I
Speaker 2: think it was it was, you know, a way to
Speaker 2: engage with people in a way. To me, that was
Speaker 2: the feeling I was left with that as much as
Speaker 2: a sex drive, it had as much to do with
Speaker 2: this wish for money, which carried on through the rest
Speaker 2: of her life, because she saw it as a way
Speaker 2: of buying friends, you know, as you mentioned that very poignant.
Speaker 2: You know, she threw a party and then she was
Speaker 2: booted out of it herself, but she saw money as
Speaker 2: a way to try to improve her life. I think
Speaker 2: that makes sense.
Speaker 7: Well what I mean, I think I misspoke with the
Speaker 7: promiscuous promiscuity. It's really something like you said, that she
Speaker 7: had to offer. She really didn't have much to offer.
Speaker 7: Desperate to have a friend, to have a confidant, to
Speaker 7: have family and familydso.
Speaker 2: And actually she was desperate to have a boyfriend. I
Speaker 2: mean Mark Fern, one of the men I interviewed. You know,
Speaker 2: she was very very keen to have him as her boyfriend,
Speaker 2: you know, that kind of thing. And of course she
Speaker 2: never did have him as her boyfriend, and never did
Speaker 2: have any of those other boys as her boyfriend. And
Speaker 2: other local girls had boyfriends, so she was left out
Speaker 2: of that as well. If you look at it, I
Speaker 2: sort of liken it to a stack of dominoes, you know,
Speaker 2: you line them up and eventually there's so many of
Speaker 2: them that they just start tipping. And all these strikes
Speaker 2: against her. You know, she had a hearing problem and
Speaker 2: that was never really addressed. Her grandmother didn't take her
Speaker 2: to the doctor. And I don't know how much she
Speaker 2: struggled in school, but there's every reason to think she did.
Speaker 2: A teacher wrote in one school report, this child needs help. Now.
Speaker 2: That was ignored, but someone noticed that something was wrong.
Speaker 2: You know, there were just all these sort of opportunities
Speaker 2: that were missed, I suppose, and in a very dysfunctional family.
Speaker 2: And then of course when her brother Keith died of
Speaker 2: cancer at age twenty one. That was a terrible blow
Speaker 2: to her. Her grandmother died alcoholism, we think, but certainly
Speaker 2: she was, you know, a sort of closet alcoholic, it
Speaker 2: turned out, you know, certainly drinking heavily. But I think
Speaker 2: many around her have used the term alcoholic. And then
Speaker 2: the grandfather, you know, who took his own life ultimately,
Speaker 2: so you know, there's suicide around her, there's alcoholism. There's
Speaker 2: just nothing that is sort of life affirming. Really, let's take.
Speaker 7: It back just a little bit too. I think again,
Speaker 7: another really crucial time in her life. Not that all
Speaker 7: of these events don't have this definite negative impact, but
Speaker 7: as we mentioned in the introduction, that she had a
Speaker 7: child that I think fifteen years of age. Tell us what,
Speaker 7: you know, some back in the good old days, people
Speaker 7: didn't react so well, and maybe they don't react so
Speaker 7: well today. But what was the their you know, Laurie,
Speaker 7: and what was the grandparent's reaction to tell us about that?
Speaker 2: He was furious, and he was absolutely livid. She hid
Speaker 2: it quite well for quite a long time. Her sister
Speaker 2: recognized it first, and then you know, there was a
Speaker 2: confession to the grandmother. But Lowry was absolutely furious and
Speaker 2: she was packed off to an onword mother's home and
Speaker 2: she gave birth to the baby. And as for the
Speaker 2: grandfather's instructions, I understand that she was never allowed to
Speaker 2: hold the baby. It was taken away immediately. He was
Speaker 2: taken away. It was a boy and put out for adoption,
Speaker 2: and somewhere he's out there wondering, you know, probably completely
Speaker 2: unaware that his mother is Eileen Warnos. You know his
Speaker 2: birth mother is Eileen Warnos, because all those records are sealed.
Speaker 2: But Eileen then went home again and she everything escalated
Speaker 2: with the grandfather and he threw her out, and you know,
Speaker 2: she's pretty soon afterwards she was living in the woods.
Speaker 2: And that was the period in her life when her
Speaker 2: friend Dawn Bopkins, who came back into her life during
Speaker 2: the death row years, was a good friend to her
Speaker 2: and her only real close friend. I think so. But
Speaker 2: you know, she would sleep in cars, in people's driveways,
Speaker 2: in trailers, in people campus in people's driveways with permission,
Speaker 2: you know, or in the woods. And god, if you've
Speaker 2: been Commichigan in the winter where you're Canadian, you should know,
Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about some pretty miserable freezing conditions there.
Speaker 2: I don't know how she got through it all, and
Speaker 2: certain people did try to help her, but but you
Speaker 2: know what a life really yeah, and some of the.
Speaker 7: So sorry, so some of the people that she was
Speaker 7: According to Don Blakins, what were the kind of people
Speaker 7: and the kind of things that she was gravitating towards
Speaker 7: at that time when she was still young, still a teenager,
Speaker 7: living in the woods, living up from her wits, basically
Speaker 7: from the you know, the goodness of some people are
Speaker 7: giving her a shower, getting understanding her situation and feeling
Speaker 7: sorry for her. What did this grab it? What did
Speaker 7: she move towards in this time?
Speaker 2: Well? I think, you know, she was then irretrievably on
Speaker 2: the path to a life of prostitution. You know, she
Speaker 2: wasn't She didn't have the schooling, she didn't have the qualifications,
Speaker 2: she didn't have the grooming, she didn't have the social
Speaker 2: skills because of her other anger issues, et cetera to
Speaker 2: really enter the workforce. Didn't really have much of a chance,
Speaker 2: did she so a prostitution. I think maybe she could
Speaker 2: have got a job in a McDonald's or a Pizza
Speaker 2: Heart or something, you know, where she didn't need to
Speaker 2: be able to, you know, have a college degree or
Speaker 2: any of the other kind of loftier qualifications. She could
Speaker 2: have perhaps got that kind of job, But I personally
Speaker 2: feel she wouldn't have lasted very long because I can't
Speaker 2: see her dealing with the customers, you know, I think
Speaker 2: she'd have been throwing something at some boy pretty quickly.
Speaker 2: So what do we go back to? You know, what
Speaker 2: she started out with. She could always make a buck
Speaker 2: with the prostitution. It came at a high price. I'm
Speaker 2: sure she was raped multiple times. I don't, as you know,
Speaker 2: believe it was by those men on those days when she.
Speaker 4: Okay Brown two, name something that's not boring, laundry, a
Speaker 4: book club, computer solitaire. Huh oh, Sorry, we were looking
Speaker 4: for chumba casino to chum. That's right, chumbucasino dot com
Speaker 4: as over one hundred casino style games joined today and
Speaker 4: play for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.
Speaker 4: Chump chumbacasino dot com plusters the condition of the plus
Speaker 4: website retails.
Speaker 8: Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an
Speaker 8: extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to
Speaker 8: make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,
Speaker 8: counting her steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That
Speaker 8: is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino.
Speaker 8: Chumpbuck Casino is all your favorite social casino style games
Speaker 8: you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.
Speaker 8: That's your bright new day lot, actually a lot, So
Speaker 8: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 8: Casino dot com.
Speaker 4: Nob necessary Dad wherever. By last terms, conditions eating pless.
Speaker 2: She robbed them and set out to rob them and
Speaker 2: ultimately murdered them. But I do believe she was rped
Speaker 2: multiple times, as many prostitutes are, and I think when
Speaker 2: she was young, this was probably a pretty productive financially
Speaker 2: for her. But by the time we get to the
Speaker 2: year of the murders, she was, you know, mid thirties,
Speaker 2: and that's getting older for a prostitute, I think, And
Speaker 2: you know, she'd led a hard life and it showed
Speaker 2: and it was getting harder for her. But in those
Speaker 2: early days, I think that that's probably what she fell
Speaker 2: back on. I don't know what else she could have done. Really.
Speaker 2: There was some talk of her going for a job
Speaker 2: interview or two. I tried to follow up with a
Speaker 2: company where she supposedly interviewed for a job, but they
Speaker 2: didn't have any records. It was too long ago, et cetera.
Speaker 2: I never actually came up with any job she'd actually
Speaker 2: ever held other than the prostitution and interviewing men who
Speaker 2: she'd been with, et cetera. So as far as I know,
Speaker 2: that was pretty much Yet. Now, Dawn always has said
Speaker 2: I didn't interview Dawn personally. But Dawn always has said
Speaker 2: that she didn't know Eileen was a prostitute when she
Speaker 2: was in school and was turning up with this money.
Speaker 2: She just knew she would disappear for a while and
Speaker 2: come back with money, and then they'd go buy beer
Speaker 2: or whatever. So she was secretive about it too, you know,
Speaker 2: so there was probably some shame around it. I'm sure.
Speaker 7: Now she is this again. We'll have to categorize this
Speaker 7: the way it characterizes us, the way it really is.
Speaker 7: She's a very small time prostitute. She's not what you
Speaker 7: might classify as a sex trade worker or an escort.
Speaker 7: And some of this is also characterized by other things
Speaker 7: that she racks up. This well, it's not it's petty crime.
Speaker 7: But a list of crimes over the years. We're talking
Speaker 7: about a young woman going into prostitution and then when
Speaker 7: the trouble hits or when the murder starts, she's in
Speaker 7: her mid thirties, like you say, so in this time
Speaker 7: she acquires this record, but it's it's categorized by her
Speaker 7: using aliases. So tell us a little bit about some
Speaker 7: of the things that she encounters police with, and tell
Speaker 7: us a little about all these aliases that she uses.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, she stole her sister's ID. She stole an
Speaker 2: ID from someone called Susan Blakhovic, and she stole an
Speaker 2: ID from Tyreea's friend, Tyra's friend, Cammy Green, with whom
Speaker 2: they stayed when the two women first met. She took
Speaker 2: her ID and she would use their names, you know,
Speaker 2: all over the place, and this of course confused the
Speaker 2: issue for everybody. Initially, she would stay with people and
Speaker 2: she would steal from them. She stayed with Christian and
Speaker 2: church people. Several times they gave her a place to stay,
Speaker 2: and after she'd gone, things would be missing, you know,
Speaker 2: she'd taken them. But her encounters with the law tended
Speaker 2: to be I mean, other than a bit of sort
Speaker 2: of shoplifting as a teenager were pretty mine or often
Speaker 2: traffic related, having a fight on a bus with a driver,
Speaker 2: this kind of thing. The biggest incident and the one
Speaker 2: that put her behind bars for three and a half years,
Speaker 2: was when she and her then boyfriend had a fight
Speaker 2: and she thought they were going to break up, and
Speaker 2: she got up in the morning and she took a
Speaker 2: gun and she went off in her bikini in a
Speaker 2: you know, bone shaker car, and she bought a bunch
Speaker 2: of beer and got very drunk, and she went in
Speaker 2: and held up a little mini milet so armed robbery.
Speaker 2: You know, that's a serious crime. And the woman behind
Speaker 2: the counter was scared to death. And you can't blame
Speaker 2: her because somebody drunk waving a gun at you is
Speaker 2: you know, scary in many ways, let's face it. So
Speaker 2: that was her bigger fence, and that was where she
Speaker 2: got her real record. There was an incident somewhere along
Speaker 2: the way where she shot herself in the stomach, you know,
Speaker 2: suicide attempt of some kind. But she wasn't a big
Speaker 2: time criminal or anything. But she had a capacity for
Speaker 2: being right full of righteous indignation. You know, if the
Speaker 2: police stopped her for something, and she would give them
Speaker 2: false idea and everything else, but she'd be livid with
Speaker 2: them for having the goal to question her, etc. So
Speaker 2: she had you know, it was very interesting in a
Speaker 2: way that she didn't have a feeling of oh my god,
Speaker 2: you know I've got the wrong I've got somebody else's idea.
Speaker 2: They're going to catch me. No, no, there was none
Speaker 2: of that. It was I'm going to you know, get
Speaker 2: them fired from their jobs, and quite a bit of grandiosity,
Speaker 2: if you will, about her powers and potential impact on
Speaker 2: events that of course, was completely out of line with reality.
Speaker 7: So now she has a a marriage. So tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit about this short lived marriage.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the short lived marriage, and it was very
Speaker 2: short lived, was to a way older man. Gosh, I'm
Speaker 2: trying to remember now. Was he sixty seven or seventy six?
Speaker 2: I can't remember, but she was sixty seven. She Teith
Speaker 2: had died, and she was at a very vulnerable point.
Speaker 2: And he had some money, that's for sure, and you know,
Speaker 2: they did some nice outings and things, but it went
Speaker 2: sour rapidly. And her sister Laurie has said since that
Speaker 2: she's ashamed to say that when she was interviewed by
Speaker 2: the police, and they said, you know, Eileen said that
Speaker 2: Lewis Fell her husband beat her with a cane, but
Speaker 2: Louis Fell said that Eileen beat him with a cane.
Speaker 2: Laurie had said, you know that Eileen was telling the truth,
Speaker 2: but years later she admitted that, you know, she's ashamed
Speaker 2: to say that she liked She was just too embarrassed
Speaker 2: to admit that her sister had beaten an elderly man
Speaker 2: with a cane. But in fact it was Eileen who
Speaker 2: beat Lewis Fell with a cane. And you know, we're
Speaker 2: talking a few months here. That was it. They were apart,
Speaker 2: and it was just an odd, short lived event, probably
Speaker 2: not terribly meaningful in the overall scheme of things.
Speaker 7: Now, what I thought was important, too, is when you
Speaker 7: talked about when she thought that her boyfriend was going
Speaker 7: to leave, or that they were going to break up,
Speaker 7: it almost was like a violent trigger. She's already certainly
Speaker 7: a violent, prone to violent person anyway, But I think
Speaker 7: this will be important as we explain things later on
Speaker 7: in events with Tyrant as well.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, the idea.
Speaker 7: That if there's a threat of someone leaving, that that
Speaker 7: was very Again the fear of abandonment was very a
Speaker 7: strong issue with Ye.
Speaker 2: Both prosecution and defense psychologist. Psychiatric experts agreed that she
Speaker 2: had a borderline personality disorder. She was not mentally ill,
Speaker 2: she had a personality disorder, and they're notoriously difficult to correct,
Speaker 2: and borderline's biggest issue is fear of abandonment. And yes,
Speaker 2: so when that boyfriend who I did interview, by the way,
Speaker 2: he was a nice guy, he was very fun and
Speaker 2: he actually went and visited her in prison for quite
Speaker 2: a time. You know, he was a good guy in
Speaker 2: many ways. But yes, the thought of losing him. And
Speaker 2: this is why I've always debated the fact that you know,
Speaker 2: she was a lesbian. Dan and I think we talked
Speaker 2: about this before, because I met quite a number of
Speaker 2: men she'd had sex with of her own volition, with
Speaker 2: no money involved, and she liked being involved with men.
Speaker 2: I think that later the two women she got involved with,
Speaker 2: it was an emotional bond as much as a sexual bond.
Speaker 2: I think she did like sex with men. And I
Speaker 2: don't even know that i'd call her a man. Hated
Speaker 2: her myself. I've always said she sort of was an
Speaker 2: equal opportunity hater. She and others in the other characters
Speaker 2: would agree with that that she hated the world. She
Speaker 2: thought the world was out to get her, and she
Speaker 2: hated everybody at times, just those few trusted people. So yes,
Speaker 2: when she thought he was going to dump her, she
Speaker 2: freaked out, and of course ultimately destructed, you know, the
Speaker 2: relationship destructed. That doesn't sound right, destroyed the relationship herself
Speaker 2: by ending up in you know, So that drove the
Speaker 2: wedge between them. I don't know if they would have
Speaker 2: broken up or not. But she was difficult to be with.
Speaker 2: That man told me very difficult to be with, very volatile,
Speaker 2: mercurial mood swings, drama, etc. So I don't know how
Speaker 2: long it would have lasted. But he was quite loyal
Speaker 2: to her in many ways, and he did go visit her,
Speaker 2: and she looked forward to his visits. But meanwhile, she
Speaker 2: was writing letters to men through the personals and she'd
Speaker 2: lined up a couple of penpal guys that one of
Speaker 2: whom she went to when she was released from prison
Speaker 2: and stayed with for a while in another state. So
Speaker 2: she was an interesting character in many ways.
Speaker 7: So now tell us about the faithful meeting of Tyra
Speaker 7: Moore and tell us a little bit before we get
Speaker 7: to that meeting. I guess is who is Tyra Moore?
Speaker 7: Tell us a little bit about the background of her.
Speaker 2: Right well, tire more. She was a maid, I guess
Speaker 2: it would be that would be the term, a rather
Speaker 2: nice hotel in Daytona beach area. And you know, she
Speaker 2: did the laundry, she looked after the rooms. She she
Speaker 2: went to work, She held down a job. She liked
Speaker 2: to party, she liked to drink. She was a fun
Speaker 2: loving girl, and she she is fun. You know, she's
Speaker 2: an outgoing personality. She'd had an accident of some sort
Speaker 2: knocked her teeth out, and she got some insurance money
Speaker 2: for this, and she had the choice between having her
Speaker 2: teeth fixed or getting a ticket and moving to Florida.
Speaker 2: And she'd chosen to move from her home in Ohio
Speaker 2: to Florida. And she never did get those teeth fixed. So,
Speaker 2: but she had a very good friend in Cammy Green.
Speaker 2: She had another very good friend in Sandy Russell, who
Speaker 2: featured quite prominently in the book because they spent quite
Speaker 2: a lot of time around her, and certainly around Tyrea.
Speaker 2: And Tyrea, you know, was a loyal friend. She loved
Speaker 2: the children. She loved Cammy's children, they were happy having
Speaker 2: her live with them, etc. So she seemed quite sort
Speaker 2: of stable person until Eileen came into her life. But
Speaker 2: she certainly did like to drink and there was that
Speaker 2: side of her too, So when the two of them
Speaker 2: got together, it was a recipe for well, it didn't
Speaker 2: enhance Tyrea's career, let's put it that way, you know.
Speaker 2: But she was a feisty gowl and they were no
Speaker 2: question that she was as strong as Eileen, and that
Speaker 2: they used to wrestle apparently, and you know, they gave
Speaker 2: each gave as good as they got. And Tira had
Speaker 2: a fight with one of the managers at the hotel
Speaker 2: one time. But basically was looked back on as a
Speaker 2: good worker by people and a nice, nice young woman.
Speaker 2: So that was a backdrop to Tyra and a family
Speaker 2: of siblings up in Ohio who seemed quite close as
Speaker 2: best I could tell.
Speaker 7: So when she met Eileen, Eileen basically Eileen told her
Speaker 7: what about her career or would she herself?
Speaker 2: Yeah, she told her that she was involved in a
Speaker 2: carpet cleaning steam cleaning business and she would go off
Speaker 2: apparently to work purportedly to this job to work with
Speaker 2: this service, this carpet cleaning service, and then she would
Speaker 2: go out on the highways. But you know, it became
Speaker 2: evident very quickly that something else was afoot, and Tira
Speaker 2: was an old fool. I mean, she knew, she knew,
Speaker 2: she knew. But there was this little bit of what
Speaker 2: should we say, a little bit of role playing early on,
Speaker 2: where that was how she presented herself as someone with
Speaker 2: a job. And she did have a relationship. Her only
Speaker 2: other relationship that I know of with another woman preceded Tyrie,
Speaker 2: and it was somebody who did have such a business.
Speaker 2: I don't believe she was involved in it. I don't
Speaker 2: believe at that time she was doing anything with that business.
Speaker 2: Maybe it was a story that felt natural to her
Speaker 2: because she had lived with someone working in that field.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so Tyree, she didn't want her hooking, she
Speaker 2: didn't want her going out, you know, and being in danger.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, she liked the spoils of
Speaker 2: her going out and coming back with the money. So
Speaker 2: it was one of those situations where somebody had to
Speaker 2: keep bringing the money in and Tira that she did
Speaker 2: have this job, and then she lost that job. But
Speaker 2: they moved around a lot, and they stayed in mobile homes.
Speaker 2: They lived a bit in the woods briefly themselves. They
Speaker 2: had you know, a room in a house. They motel rooms.
Speaker 2: They stayed with one of Tyree, yeah, which tyrants coworkers
Speaker 2: briefly for a while, who couldn't wait to get rid
Speaker 2: of them. And I said, you know, you're not coming
Speaker 2: back if you bring her with you, meaning Eileen, because
Speaker 2: there was so much sort of spy and screaming and
Speaker 2: shouting and she just couldn't take it. So I think
Speaker 2: her life got steadily more chaotic, let's put it that way.
Speaker 2: And the drinking. They would drink a case of beer
Speaker 2: together in an evening, so you know, that's not really
Speaker 2: conducive to holding down a job either. But Tyria did
Speaker 2: have jobs for periods of time. She did. But you know,
Speaker 2: they were both They liked to drink, and they liked
Speaker 2: to go to bars, and they like to shoot guns
Speaker 2: in the woods and really pretty much do what they wanted,
Speaker 2: you know, not disciplined, not disciplined life in any fashion.
Speaker 7: So at some point Aileen is basically the sole supporter.
Speaker 7: And when they do get their money, like you say,
Speaker 7: it's like a windfall, and so they go and they party,
Speaker 7: they drink a lot of beat, so a lot of
Speaker 7: money is going towards that and each place that they
Speaker 7: get to stay, which are mostly friends of Tyrea, they
Speaker 7: really do want to get rid of Aileen because of
Speaker 7: her odd, disrespectful, violent behavior. So but even though, like
Speaker 7: you depict in the book, and like you have mentioned
Speaker 7: through this whole interview, there really wasn't this again, in
Speaker 7: some people's mind, are stereotypical man and woman in this relationship,
Speaker 7: they were very much They were very much, very similar
Speaker 7: in a lot of ways, these two people, Tyria and Yeah,
Speaker 7: and certainly one wasn't a submissive personality. But in terms
Speaker 7: of Aileen, Eileen she saw this as at least in
Speaker 7: one aspect, that she wanted to be a supporter of her,
Speaker 7: her woman, her her significant partner, and provide for her,
Speaker 7: didn't she She did?
Speaker 2: And how much it with that and how much of
Speaker 2: it again was the fear of abandonment if she didn't
Speaker 2: come through with rent money or motel bill money or something.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but yeah, No, she definitely took on
Speaker 2: that role at various times. And I think that she
Speaker 2: knew that if she had no money, Tira was not
Speaker 2: going to stick around. I mean, I don't think that
Speaker 2: she would have stuck around if they'd have to live
Speaker 2: in the woods for any length of time. For example,
Speaker 2: even though there was a sort of laziness to the
Speaker 2: lifestyle and you know, very laid back compared to anyone
Speaker 2: who's ever held down a nine to five job and
Speaker 2: very unstructured lifestyle, I don't think that Tyria would have
Speaker 2: stuck around for that. I think the money was a
Speaker 2: critical element. And for Eileen, yes, she did want to
Speaker 2: look after her, I think, but she also did not
Speaker 2: want to lose her personally. I think not wanting to
Speaker 2: lose it was probably as strong as wanting to look
Speaker 2: after her. Or maybe they were just inextricably woven together.
Speaker 7: Now there are some I hate to skip along, but
Speaker 7: there are some incidents with Tyria's friends that are very
Speaker 7: very crucial till later on where Eileen, in her sort
Speaker 7: of crazy states, says some really again statements that will
Speaker 7: haunt her later. Please describe one of these events where
Speaker 7: she's talking about the Bonnie and Clyde idea that she's
Speaker 7: going to be famous and some want to be involved.
Speaker 2: When they were staying with Cammy Green. Cammy told me
Speaker 2: that one afternoon, Eileen said, you know, come join us,
Speaker 2: come join us, want in on this. We're going to
Speaker 2: be like Bonnie and Clyde. We're going to do something
Speaker 2: that no woman's ever done before. We're going to make
Speaker 2: a lot of money. And Camie said, is it legal?
Speaker 2: You know, what is it? What is this plan? And
Speaker 2: she was very wary because she was wary of Eileen period.
Speaker 2: And yes, she did have this desire for fame. She
Speaker 2: had a desire for some kind of gangster status if
Speaker 2: you will. Maybe gangster's not the right word, but Bonnie
Speaker 2: and Clyde, yes. And you know, there's also that incident
Speaker 2: where she approached a guy she wanted a book written
Speaker 2: about her, but this is pre the murders, prior to
Speaker 2: the murders, and told him, you know, I'm going to
Speaker 2: tell you some stuff that nobody knows about. And so
Speaker 2: I always say the murders we know of, because we
Speaker 2: really don't know that Richard Mallory was her first victim.
Speaker 2: She may have seen something and not participated in it
Speaker 2: in another era in her life when she was hanging
Speaker 2: out with some bikers or whatever. I don't know, but
Speaker 2: She definitely wanted fame, celebrity, and she knew the name
Speaker 2: of a couple of crime writers and she wanted them
Speaker 2: to write about her. All of this pre the murders,
Speaker 2: so you know what they were going to write. I'm
Speaker 2: not exactly sure, but her plan was always to be
Speaker 2: a hero to women, a Bonnie and Clyde type.
Speaker 8: You know, Lucky Land casino, asking people, what's the weirdest
Speaker 8: place you've gotten lucky?
Speaker 2: Lucky?
Speaker 8: In line of the Delhi, I guess ah, in my
Speaker 8: dentist's office more than once.
Speaker 4: Actually do I have to say?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 4: You do in the car before my kids pta meeting? Really? Yes,
Speaker 4: excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? I
Speaker 4: never win? And tell well, there you have it.
Speaker 8: You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky Landsloughts dot
Speaker 8: com play for free right now?
Speaker 4: Are you feeling lucky? No, we're just necessary void my
Speaker 4: long eighteen plus terms and conditions of placy.
Speaker 1: Whats every details?
Speaker 4: Judy was boring?
Speaker 2: Hello?
Speaker 9: Then Judy discovered Jumpercasino dot com.
Speaker 2: It's my little escape.
Speaker 4: Now Judy is the life of the party.
Speaker 2: Oh baby, mama is bringing home the bacon whoa.
Speaker 4: Take it easy, Judy. The chump of life is for everybody.
Speaker 9: So go to chumpacasino dot com and play over one
Speaker 9: hundred casino style games. Join today and play for free
Speaker 9: for your chance to redeem some serious prices. Jump chump
Speaker 9: a casino dot com. No, we're just necessary weight.
Speaker 4: We're promitted by my eighteen plus terms and condition to play.
Speaker 3: What's every details?
Speaker 2: Hero in the ways that such characters become sort of
Speaker 2: heroic in it.
Speaker 7: Funny way Hollywood Hollywood win.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, in a Hollywood way. And I am I'm trying.
Speaker 2: I'm losing the word, but you know, not not fantastic,
Speaker 2: but fair, not fairytale, that's not the word, but in
Speaker 2: a yeah, exactly, And those characters appeal to her. Bonnie
Speaker 2: and Clyde was something that came up time and again
Speaker 2: that she had these visions of ending up like Bonnie
Speaker 2: and Clyde. Now, of course we know what happened to
Speaker 2: Bonnie and Clyde, and I have a feeling that was
Speaker 2: not what she, you know, had in mind for her future,
Speaker 2: but the same of them, the celebrity of the notoriety exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Now there's a point when Aleen starts you know, comes
Speaker 7: back to the hotel motel with a vehicle. And so
Speaker 7: the big question for a lot of people, and we
Speaker 7: won't get into this right at this moment, but with
Speaker 7: Tyria is how much did she know? We talked about
Speaker 7: how much did she know initially about what Alien did,
Speaker 7: and when she brings a car a car back, she
Speaker 7: gives some excuse like and Tyria knew that she didn't
Speaker 7: have friends that would just give her a vehicle to use,
Speaker 7: rent or otherwise. And that were other things that were
Speaker 7: there as well that Alien sold or used or at
Speaker 7: least that Tyria was aware of.
Speaker 2: And gave to Tyree. Unlike you know, the movies have
Speaker 2: portrayed the Tyria character as sort of this innocent Yes,
Speaker 2: she had the dead men's possessions, some of them, some
Speaker 2: were pawns, some were put in a little warehouse what
Speaker 2: do you call the storage unit that they rented. But yeah,
Speaker 2: she knew, she knew. I mean, when the police picked
Speaker 2: Tyria up, she had several items that belonged to victims
Speaker 2: in her possession. But that first time she came home,
Speaker 2: she said, ty I killed a man today. And ty
Speaker 2: was sort of disbelieving first, you know, but she did
Speaker 2: see the car outside, and she did see the goods
Speaker 2: that came in the house. And years later, or at
Speaker 2: least after the trial, she did admit to me, Taria,
Speaker 2: that I said, well, what were you thinking? You know,
Speaker 2: what was going through your mind? And she said, and
Speaker 2: it was really kind of stunning in a way to me.
Speaker 2: She said, well, I knew she was angry, and I
Speaker 2: knew she was angry at men, and I thought she'd
Speaker 2: got it out of her system. She did ultimately believe
Speaker 2: that she'd killed this man, and of course, you know,
Speaker 2: obviously she had killed a man that day that night,
Speaker 2: but she thought she'd got it out of her system,
Speaker 2: and she I think felt some regret as she should
Speaker 2: have done that. When the cars kept coming and news
Speaker 2: stories accelerated, and in one case they had a car
Speaker 2: for over a month, you know, she could have perhaps
Speaker 2: saved some lives if she'd opened her eyes a bit
Speaker 2: more and actually taken action, but she didn't. And you know,
Speaker 2: when we got to the end of the killing spree,
Speaker 2: right before the arrests, Tyria went up to her family
Speaker 2: in Ohio for Thanksgiving, and there was always this business
Speaker 2: of oh, I couldn't leave Aileen because I was afraid
Speaker 2: of her, But in reality, she didn't have to come
Speaker 2: back after Thanksgiving and she came back and there was
Speaker 2: another murder. So I don't buy that personally, that she
Speaker 2: was so afraid. That would have been her perfect opportunity
Speaker 2: to make the break, wouldn't it.
Speaker 7: Certainly? And I don't think the police believed that story either,
Speaker 7: but of course that's why they, you know, they forced
Speaker 7: her to wear a wire. So we're jumping together a
Speaker 7: little bit now, Yes, the what are the Well, let's
Speaker 7: start with Richard Mallory because because you describe it in
Speaker 7: great detail, and later she again has a defense in
Speaker 7: court that later we find out through your great book
Speaker 7: that there's a confession and it's and it's very very
Speaker 7: comforting to the families because it is a heinous allegation
Speaker 7: to deal with along with that their loved one was killed.
Speaker 7: So tell us about Richard Mallory and the again, what
Speaker 7: was maybe the first murder?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Richard Mallory he liked prostitutes, he liked sex,
Speaker 2: he liked pawn he liked you know, nightclubs. He was
Speaker 2: heading up to Daytona, I think for the weekend, and
Speaker 2: he'd already had a couple of women earlier that night
Speaker 2: at one of his haunts, and he started driving and
Speaker 2: he gave her a ride, and it was late and
Speaker 2: they bought some booze and they pulled into the woods,
Speaker 2: and according to Eileen, they sat talking for like five hours,
Speaker 2: drinking and talking. And then this is where it gets murky,
Speaker 2: because Eileen, initially, when she was arrested, said that she
Speaker 2: shot him because she thought he was going to rape her.
Speaker 2: She thought he wasn't going to pay her. He had
Speaker 2: given her the money he was going to but she
Speaker 2: thought he would take it back. Variations on that scene
Speaker 2: nothing at all like these stories. She came out with
Speaker 2: it a trial a year later, where he'd brutalized her,
Speaker 2: tied her to the steering wheel, she'd fought him off,
Speaker 2: killed him in an attempt to save her own life
Speaker 2: during a violent rate. Nothing like that now here, Dan.
Speaker 2: We have to look at the facts, and we have
Speaker 2: to look at the evidence. Richard Mallory was fully clothed,
Speaker 2: he was in the driver's seat the first bullet entered
Speaker 2: his I'm trying to think which side now, because I'm
Speaker 2: from England drive on the different side, and I'm not
Speaker 2: sure which side you drive on but okay, she was
Speaker 2: in the passenger seat, leaning across that chair seat, and
Speaker 2: the first bullet went into his arm and threw on
Speaker 2: into his chest. He jumped out of the car and
Speaker 2: tried to escape, obviously, and she ran around the front
Speaker 2: of the car and fired three more bullets into him.
Speaker 2: And it was, according to the medical examiner, a slow,
Speaker 2: agonizing death. So, you know, we're dealing with a man
Speaker 2: here who is fully closed and behind the behind the
Speaker 2: behind the wheel in his own car when he was killed,
Speaker 2: which is not the same as in the middle of
Speaker 2: her you know, her being tied to the steering wheel
Speaker 2: and him anally raping her and things that she later
Speaker 2: claimed at the trial. She also claimed, you know, she
Speaker 2: was bloodied and beaten and battered, but Tyra said there
Speaker 2: was not a mark on her that night, nor did
Speaker 2: she complain about having been attacked. So then we look
Speaker 2: at what she did next. If it was the first
Speaker 2: time she'd killed somebody, or even if it wasn't, she
Speaker 2: you know, you'd think she'd be so freaked out she
Speaker 2: would run, But no, she not only did she try
Speaker 2: to cover the body with bits of old carpet and twigs,
Speaker 2: but she turned inside out his pockets and she took
Speaker 2: his money, and then she made off with his car
Speaker 2: and his goods, and she buried some of his possessions
Speaker 2: in one spot, some in another, and you know, made
Speaker 2: a real attempt to cover up the evidence, as it were.
Speaker 2: So there's a big, big chasm here really between what
Speaker 2: has been popularized as what Eileen did and what you
Speaker 2: know has been put in movie. The facts don't bear
Speaker 2: that out. That's not how the bullets went in, not
Speaker 2: the scenario, you know. And if you've just been brutalized
Speaker 2: in such a fashion, I don't think you're going to
Speaker 2: lean down and you know, this dying man turn his
Speaker 2: pockets inside out and take his money and everything. You're
Speaker 2: just going to high tail it out of it. I
Speaker 2: would have thought, you know, But it was just such
Speaker 2: a vastly different account. So this is where it gets
Speaker 2: a bit tricky, because yes, the two of them were
Speaker 2: going to have sex, that was the original intention. But
Speaker 2: she enjoyed talking. He enjoyed talking to her, and he said, oh,
Speaker 2: you should be a psychologist or counselor you know, you're
Speaker 2: really a good listener. You're good at this. They had
Speaker 2: a nice time together, hanging out for hours and then suddenly.
Speaker 2: Now I've since talked for the new edition of Lethal Intent,
Speaker 2: I've since talked to a forensic psychiatrist and others who said,
Speaker 2: you know, what she thought was happening may have had
Speaker 2: nothing to do with what was actually happening between her
Speaker 2: and this man. It may have been something completely inside
Speaker 2: her own head, you know, more like a PTSD type experience.
Speaker 2: But in any event, you know, there was no brutal
Speaker 2: rape with that man that day. Yes, there was sex
Speaker 2: with the two victims who were found nude, no question,
Speaker 2: But there were other victims who were not found nude,
Speaker 2: and who I do believe there was a good chance
Speaker 2: gave her a lift. She was in shorts and a
Speaker 2: T shirt, hitch hiking on the freeway. She had a
Speaker 2: photograph of a family children that she would show them
Speaker 2: and say, look, these are my kids. They're in a motel.
Speaker 2: They're waiting for me to come back. They're hungry. Can
Speaker 2: you give me a ride? Now there are men who
Speaker 2: would say yes to that. And the thing is that
Speaker 2: we have seven dead men, six actually, because Peter Seines
Speaker 2: has never been found to this day, his body. She
Speaker 2: can't remember where she left it. But you know, where
Speaker 2: not only are they murder victims, but they are also
Speaker 2: labeled as rapists. And this was tremendously painful for the families,
Speaker 2: as you can imagine. So and with no evidence, by
Speaker 2: the way, to support that. I mean, we're talking about
Speaker 2: a woman who traveled with a bottle of wind decks,
Speaker 2: with her gun in her kill bag, and who said
Speaker 2: a killing day is much like any other day, and
Speaker 2: she cleaned down fingerprints. She was very methodical about it.
Speaker 2: She wanted to know how the police caught her. She
Speaker 2: thought she'd been very careful. So, you know, to see,
Speaker 2: these families have the double whammy of having their loved
Speaker 2: ones murdered without evidence. I'm not saying that none of
Speaker 2: them raped. He I can't know, Dan, but I do
Speaker 2: know we can't prove it and we don't know for sure,
Speaker 2: and there was no evidence of that. And some of
Speaker 2: them were shot in the back, the back of the head.
Speaker 2: You know, there was just nothing really supported any of that.
Speaker 2: So when she finally turned around before her execution, well
Speaker 2: you know, in that last year or two and said
Speaker 2: there was no self defense. You know, I didn't kill
Speaker 2: in self defense. The families did take some comfort in that.
Speaker 2: At least those who were still alive. As you can imagine,
Speaker 2: there was some comfort in that was a little too late,
Speaker 2: but not too late. It gave some comfort.
Speaker 7: How much of an important issue and when did this
Speaker 7: actually come up, because I don't remember it from the
Speaker 7: first edition, was that Richard Mallory, ironic twist, had a
Speaker 7: criminal record. And I hate to bring up anything that
Speaker 7: cast dispersions on this man that's deceased, but how futant
Speaker 7: to the defense is that he did have a criminal
Speaker 7: record for breaking enter an attempt to rape, well with
Speaker 7: intense to rape when he was younger.
Speaker 2: You actually said it correctly, Dan, which mostly almost overwhelmingly,
Speaker 2: it's not reported that way. He didn't rape anyone. It
Speaker 2: was an attempted rape. That is not to say that
Speaker 2: he wasn't intent upon raping someone. He was. He'd been
Speaker 2: watching this woman as he'd made his deliveries. She would
Speaker 2: be lying on the couch and he could see us
Speaker 2: through the window. And one day he went into the
Speaker 2: house and he went up to the bathroom and she
Speaker 2: was in the shower and she screamed, and I think
Speaker 2: he screamed too, and ran out. So that was the encounter,
Speaker 2: and he was sent to an institution. He was just
Speaker 2: shy of going into the army. He was nineteen years old,
Speaker 2: and he was institutionalized rather than incarcerated. I think you
Speaker 2: would say for four years or so. And of course, okay,
Speaker 2: so he's nineteen, so say mid twenties. So by the
Speaker 2: time we get to the murders, we've got twenty five
Speaker 2: years of no incidents, no records, no arrests, no nothing.
Speaker 2: So as far as the judge was concerned, it was
Speaker 2: all just too distant in time. Yes, it was an
Speaker 2: ironic twist. But I did talk to hookers who were
Speaker 2: with Richard Mallory, who knew Richard Mallory, and who said
Speaker 2: he'd never been violent, he had some problems. He was
Speaker 2: about to go into the army, and you know, maybe
Speaker 2: he had some kind of sexual addiction thing going on.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. He was an acne
Speaker 2: ridden youth at the time, and it's hard to know.
Speaker 2: But yes, he did indeed break into this woman's home.
Speaker 2: I don't know if the door was locked, but let's
Speaker 2: say that it was. He broke in, and he did
Speaker 2: go upstairs, and his intent was to have sex with her.
Speaker 2: So there's no denying that, but the only thing you
Speaker 2: can say is that, well, what can you say, Dan,
Speaker 2: I don't know really, but that's I mean. I did
Speaker 2: get the records of the time he served and where
Speaker 2: he served it, and there was one incident while he
Speaker 2: was in there where I think he raised his hand
Speaker 2: to one of the prison guards, a female, something that
Speaker 2: got him a bit of extra time. But anyway, legally speaking,
Speaker 2: it was just too distant in time to be considered
Speaker 2: as a mitigating factorer. You know that the defense, the
Speaker 2: defense that you know, could used to say anything. I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: as Dan knows, I'm suffering a bit under a cold here,
Speaker 2: so I'm trying to think clearly, no and everything.
Speaker 7: Is why I just made that point was the how
Speaker 7: much defense could use that to their advantage, even though
Speaker 7: again the judge had the good sense to say and
Speaker 7: and even I would say, okay, that it makes no
Speaker 7: sense given the evidence of absolutely no self defense and
Speaker 7: no evidence of any attempted rape or rape with Aileen,
Speaker 7: and given her given her confession, and given her confession,
Speaker 7: and so really there we have to say that. You know,
Speaker 7: I didn't bring it up to cloud the issue at all.
Speaker 2: It's just a question. He's not like all the other men.
Speaker 2: You know, he was a He did go to the
Speaker 2: topless bars, and he did go hang out in that
Speaker 2: side of town. I mean, that was his lifestyle. But
Speaker 2: I didn't find any other evidence of any violence against
Speaker 2: women or you know, hear any complaints of violenced against women,
Speaker 2: or find any complaints of violenced against women. Now, what
Speaker 2: happened was that some of this was known about the
Speaker 2: fact that he had something in his past. But because
Speaker 2: back then between the states, it was not all computerized
Speaker 2: and interconnected as things are much more today, the defense
Speaker 2: didn't have the full file I don't believe at the
Speaker 2: time of the trial, and that was why Dateline was
Speaker 2: able to come out later and say, guess what this
Speaker 2: guy had? You know this in his past. Something was known.
Speaker 2: I guess he told his girlfriend Jackie, who took the
Speaker 2: stand at one point and as she I can't remember
Speaker 2: now if it was in front of the jury or not,
Speaker 2: but it did come up that he had something in
Speaker 2: his background, but the full details of it emerged after
Speaker 2: the trial.
Speaker 7: Right, So now we we have some time if you
Speaker 7: can still accommodate our audience, because we're nowhere near getting
Speaker 7: to some of the story. We won't go through all
Speaker 7: of it. We got to leave something for the people
Speaker 7: to enjoy in the reading. But there are so many
Speaker 7: There is such a cast of characters once the trial occurs,
Speaker 7: and then afterwards, we've got we've got defense lawyers, We've
Speaker 7: got born again Christians adopting alien Warnos, Arlene Prell. We
Speaker 7: have an actress who wants to make a movie and
Speaker 7: ends up involved. So it was a real super media circus.
Speaker 7: So tell us a little bit about the trial and
Speaker 7: the media and the world's attention on this what they
Speaker 7: really deemed her the America's first serial killer. Tell us
Speaker 7: about the media circus.
Speaker 2: Well, her trial was that in a small courtroom in DeLand, Florida.
Speaker 2: And I was there every day, and there were local
Speaker 2: news people, and there were the visiting producers from Dateline,
Speaker 2: et cetera. Who would you know, come in for a
Speaker 2: day or two. Documentarian would come in for a day
Speaker 2: or two. But really the reporters were Florida people, and
Speaker 2: I know because I sat with them every day. And
Speaker 2: it wasn't as much of a media circus in that
Speaker 2: little town as you would have imagined. Somehow, it really
Speaker 2: or maybe as I've seen in other cases, let's put
Speaker 2: it that way. I mean, it was, it was a
Speaker 2: big case. But I think the whole thing of first
Speaker 2: female serial killer, I mean, yes, there've been women who've
Speaker 2: killed multiple times. I think the whole label thing, you know,
Speaker 2: really sprang from the fact that she killed in male fashion,
Speaker 2: I killing strangers in different locations with a cooling off
Speaker 2: period in between, which at the time was the FBI's
Speaker 2: part of the FBI's definition of a serial killer. And women,
Speaker 2: as you know, don't tend to kill that way. They
Speaker 2: tend to kill people in their care. They tend to
Speaker 2: kill husbands for insurance money, to poison them, and there's
Speaker 2: all kinds of other ways that they kill. But to
Speaker 2: kill three people on different occasions in different locations, it
Speaker 2: was kind of a shock at the time. And that
Speaker 2: was really why the case sort of captured the imagination
Speaker 2: of so many and including myself, I must add, because
Speaker 2: that was why I was so fascinated to learn what
Speaker 2: made Eileen tick, and that was why I decided to
Speaker 2: cover the trial and write a book. And that was
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one, I'll.
Speaker 4: Tell you one.
Speaker 7: And so this is, of course the death penalty in
Speaker 7: Florida is a little quicker. But tell us about the
Speaker 7: fight for the state to execute her and Eileen fight
Speaker 7: to be executed.
Speaker 2: Yes, well, you know, they went through all the regular appeals,
Speaker 2: but Eileen had said very early on that she wanted
Speaker 2: her execution carried out. She was shocked to be convicted.
Speaker 2: She didn't make enter a plea. She pled no contest
Speaker 2: to murders two, three, four, and by then she'd kind
Speaker 2: of given up. She wasn't fighting it. She wanted to
Speaker 2: be executed, and she kept that thread going through very
Speaker 2: much through the ten years. However, when all the appeals,
Speaker 2: you know, the appeals that are automatic of course, whether
Speaker 2: she wanted them or not, took place. And then when
Speaker 2: it came time where she'd run out of those options,
Speaker 2: it became an issue of do you really want it
Speaker 2: carried out, Eileen, you know, because it's one thing to
Speaker 2: say it, but you have to waive your rights to
Speaker 2: further appeals. At a certain point, you can't kind of
Speaker 2: keep changing your mind. And so she did ask us
Speaker 2: some extra time, she wanted to think about it further.
Speaker 2: But then she came back and yes, she did want
Speaker 2: She'd made up her mind. She wanted to go be
Speaker 2: with God, and that was her decision. Now, volunteers for
Speaker 2: execution are very rare. I've forgotten the number of volunteers
Speaker 2: in the last twenty years in the US, but very
Speaker 2: small number. And I talked to someone who'd done a
Speaker 2: study of people who volunteer, and one common thread with
Speaker 2: them was often a Christian person in their lives, or
Speaker 2: an influence in their lives where they had in their
Speaker 2: minds through their own belief or believes that became sort
Speaker 2: of instilled over time through other people influencing them that
Speaker 2: they were going to go be with God. Now, for Eileen,
Speaker 2: she had to tell the truth and had to get
Speaker 2: right with God before she could take that step that
Speaker 2: was in her mind necessary to get into heaven, which
Speaker 2: of course is where she wanted to be. So, you know,
Speaker 2: there are those volunteers, and then there are some who
Speaker 2: volunteer because they are suicidal, and there are some who
Speaker 2: say that they are mentally ill, and some who say
Speaker 2: they're not mentally ill and basically try to gain the system,
Speaker 2: as it were. If they've made up their minds they
Speaker 2: want to have their execution carried out, they've got to
Speaker 2: fight against all the Bianca jaggers of this world and
Speaker 2: the anti death penalty protesters who come out in force.
Speaker 2: And Ileen was very annoyed when those people rose up
Speaker 2: and said, you can't execute this woman. She's mentally ill.
Speaker 2: She was furious. She wasn't mentally ill. You know, she
Speaker 2: never thought of herself as mentally ill. You could guarantee
Speaker 2: to anger her if you called her mentally ill or
Speaker 2: mad or crazy. Those words would drive her crazy.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 2: So she didn't want them interfering. She didn't want the
Speaker 2: lawyer that the court pointed to her during that phase,
Speaker 2: and she continued having problems with the jail. They appointed
Speaker 2: a lawyer to represent her in her claims that her
Speaker 2: food was being tampered with, et cetera, et cetera. But again,
Speaker 2: you know, as one of the experts pointed out to me,
Speaker 2: you know, if you talk to a banker and he
Speaker 2: says someone spat in his food in the canteen, you
Speaker 2: know you have to sort of think, Okay, is this
Speaker 2: guy paranoid or is he sane, etc. But when it's
Speaker 2: in prison, people do spit in food, and they do
Speaker 2: much worse, as he said, so it's you know, it's
Speaker 2: not a sign of any insanity to make such claims.
Speaker 2: So she did make those claims, and so there was
Speaker 2: a separate issue going on with her complaints about various
Speaker 2: warders who she felt added in for her, and that
Speaker 2: they were going to rape her before she was executed,
Speaker 2: and other things. She also believed, as did Dawn, who
Speaker 2: was her close confidante during those years before the execution,
Speaker 2: that the police had not arrested her as early as
Speaker 2: they could, That they knew who she was long before,
Speaker 2: but they didn't her because they wanted to wait because
Speaker 2: the more people she killed, the more money they would
Speaker 2: get from selling their story, which of course is ludicrous
Speaker 2: because Dan, if you know anything about the way the
Speaker 2: police operate, as you do, and I do you know,
Speaker 2: we're talking I think five counties here, to have a
Speaker 2: conspiracy between the police in five counties that they were
Speaker 2: going to not arrest a known serial killer. I mean
Speaker 2: all of the cops wanted to find and wanted to
Speaker 2: arrest her. So it's a ludicrous claim, but she did,
Speaker 2: you know. That was one of her ongoing issues, was
Speaker 2: she killed as many people as she did because they
Speaker 2: didn't want to stop her because it would have made
Speaker 2: more money for them, made a better movie, made a
Speaker 2: better whatever, you know, So she did have some she
Speaker 2: did have some distorted thinking, there's no question about it. Insane, no,
Speaker 2: but distorted thinking, yes for sure. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 7: She has quite a few traits of the psychopathic personality
Speaker 7: pathology as well. And you know, in terms of well,
Speaker 7: we know those symptoms are characteristiccess. How much was Arlene
Speaker 7: Prail an influence in having Eileen come to God and
Speaker 7: make this very very important confession, which was very important
Speaker 7: for the sake of what was the truth in this story?
Speaker 7: But also, like you said, you mentioned in the book,
Speaker 7: and this is very strong reaction I had when the
Speaker 7: families got that little semblance of not closure, but little
Speaker 7: semblance of peace in that she had confessants that it
Speaker 7: was not self defense and that their loved ones were
Speaker 7: not rapists, right.
Speaker 2: Right, And as I know put in the book, she
Speaker 2: killed and you mentioned she killed three men in as
Speaker 2: many weeks at one point when she thought Ty was
Speaker 2: going to leave her because her sister was visiting, and
Speaker 2: you know, there's no doubt in my mind that this
Speaker 2: was the precipitating factor when she would decide, Okay, I've
Speaker 2: got to go off and I need the money, and
Speaker 2: I'm not going to she said herself, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to I wasn't going to leave any witnesses, you know.
Speaker 2: So she wanted the money. She identified the fact they'd
Speaker 2: got money, and she killed them. And that was you know,
Speaker 2: she was a robber who killed So.
Speaker 7: What was the question, Well, I was talking about the
Speaker 7: role of Arlene Prale and that, yes, she was a
Speaker 7: boy against person had adopted her. Yeah, and that was
Speaker 7: you know, I thought that she was a very very
Speaker 7: important figure in the inevitable, well not inevitable, the end
Speaker 7: outcome of what happened in terms of those confessions. And
Speaker 7: I thought that, and I thought that we've passed over
Speaker 7: this aspect that the police had forced. Well, Tyria didn't
Speaker 7: have much of a choice, but she was wired and
Speaker 7: basically confessions from Eileen, and Eileen knew that she was
Speaker 7: being recorded, and so tell us, I mean not to
Speaker 7: say there's any there's too many redeeming aspects of Eileen
Speaker 7: Werno's but what does she do, what does she attempt
Speaker 7: to do for Tyrea?
Speaker 2: Well, Tyrea says, I'm not going down for crimes that
Speaker 2: you committed and that I had nothing to do with.
Speaker 2: And Eileen said, I'm not going to let that happen
Speaker 2: to you, which is why she is such a such
Speaker 2: a fascinating character. She did confess to get Tyree off
Speaker 2: the hook to make it plain that only one person
Speaker 2: had committed these crimes, and the police knew this in
Speaker 2: at least several instances because Tyrea had alibis. You know,
Speaker 2: she was working, I think with one, she was out
Speaker 2: of state in another. Whatever, she had alibis for several
Speaker 2: and they really didn't think she was along on the murders,
Speaker 2: but certainly they were able to use that to their advantage.
Speaker 2: And just to address the Christian thing, Aileen had always
Speaker 2: had this streak in her she'd you know, of reading
Speaker 2: the Bible. I think I mentioned she stayed with some
Speaker 2: Christian people a couple of times, and one place where
Speaker 2: they put a roof over her head and then she
Speaker 2: walked out and took belongings from them, et cetera. But
Speaker 2: she she came to religion back and forth. So I
Speaker 2: think Arlene probably was a catalyst and it was what
Speaker 2: Aileen needed at that time, but she wasn't the She
Speaker 2: didn't take her from being you know, an eight is
Speaker 2: to a Christian. For example, there was always that fight
Speaker 2: to Eileen that was interested in religion and God and
Speaker 2: believed I think so, but of course Arlene really strengthened that.
Speaker 2: And one of the messages she hammered home was you
Speaker 2: have to tell the truth.
Speaker 9: You have to.
Speaker 2: Confess to what you actually did and get right with God,
Speaker 2: and then you know He'll be ready for you and
Speaker 2: you'll go where you want to go.
Speaker 7: What I thought was very interesting too. And I just
Speaker 7: read this in your updated version, and those lucky enough
Speaker 7: to get this new version will read this little gem
Speaker 7: as well as that. It's not well known at all.
Speaker 7: Of course, probably only in your book is this revealed
Speaker 7: that Tyreea and Eileen were in contact after the death
Speaker 7: pannel In while she was incarcerated, and even that Eileen
Speaker 7: had given her a thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: And I thought, yes, that's pretty interesting, wasn't it. See
Speaker 2: I've always said that money was important to Eileen, and
Speaker 2: there's another example of it. And when the television shows
Speaker 2: paid ten thousand dollars or whatever, she would say, who's
Speaker 2: going to get how much money? There was a little
Speaker 2: bit of a power trip that went with that. You know,
Speaker 2: she allocated and more money went to Dawn Botkins say
Speaker 2: than to Arlin Praley, who had traveled back and forth,
Speaker 2: back and forth, who had taken I know, having taken
Speaker 2: collect calls from death row that they're darned expensive and
Speaker 2: they can only call collect. You know, she'd spent a
Speaker 2: lot of money and she got twenty five hundred dollars
Speaker 2: out of one payment and I think Dawn was supposed
Speaker 2: to get four or whatever. But yes, that was interesting
Speaker 2: to find out. And the fact that the filmmaker Jacqueline
Speaker 2: Jeru told me that she had set up this po
Speaker 2: box for them to write to one another. I was
Speaker 2: pretty surprised, I have to say, you know, that took
Speaker 2: me aback and that was when I was writing the update,
Speaker 2: just you know, the end of last year. So yes,
Speaker 2: what a turn up for the book. They I would
Speaker 2: like to know what else was said between them, And
Speaker 2: it's very interesting that Eileen would send her money, but
Speaker 2: that came out of a letter between Eileen and Dawn.
Speaker 2: I think if I remember correctly that bit of information
Speaker 2: about the thousand.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, we'll be lieve for the readers of this
Speaker 7: of Lethal Intent will be the conversation some of the
Speaker 7: again that the Donna, her childhood friend Donna is Yes,
Speaker 7: She's is the person that was with Eileen the evening
Speaker 7: before her execution. That's correct, all the people to speak
Speaker 7: with her, and so we'll leave it for the reader
Speaker 7: to discover what you have found speaking with Dawn about
Speaker 7: that evening and what transports.
Speaker 2: I did not speak to Dawn, but she was she
Speaker 2: talked to the press after the execution. Yeah, but I
Speaker 2: did speak to Troy Burris's sister right the day before
Speaker 2: the execution, and after she witnessed it, she came out
Speaker 2: and she we spoke on the phone that afternoon, so
Speaker 2: you know, I had an inside story from that point
Speaker 2: of view. But I didn't speak to Dawn. Just to
Speaker 2: have to set the record straight on that. Yes, yes,
Speaker 2: I hope the reader enjoys it.
Speaker 7: Amazing again that the twist and turns in this. I
Speaker 7: know that's a cliche that twists and turns, but I
Speaker 7: mean this is a story that just kept growing and
Speaker 7: growing and just an amazing again depiction of this person,
Speaker 7: this very very complicated person. And you end up in
Speaker 7: the end almost feeling sorry for her to a certain degree. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and yet like many people, they say, yes, well, you know,
Speaker 7: we felt for her. She certainly was an abused person
Speaker 7: certainly had a rough life. However, she really did deserve
Speaker 7: what she got.
Speaker 2: You know, she was a victim, but she was a victimizer.
Speaker 2: And it was very emotionally draining and confusing writing the book,
Speaker 2: I have to say, you know, because of the mixed
Speaker 2: emotions that came up with obviously tremendous empathy for everything
Speaker 2: she went through as a kid. It was heartbreaking all
Speaker 2: of that, and heartbreaking to do the interviews and to
Speaker 2: write about it and to make the discoveries. But then,
Speaker 2: you know, it was also heartbreaking to get to know
Speaker 2: those families and get to know what they went through
Speaker 2: and what happened to those loved ones, and what kind
Speaker 2: of men some of them were, you know. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it was an interesting journey, and you're right, you know,
Speaker 2: she did have those sociopathic traits in her and stealing
Speaker 2: with nothing and using somebody else's identification was nothing, and
Speaker 2: taking some things from people who were good enough to
Speaker 2: give her a place to stay with nothing. And yet
Speaker 2: when the chips were down, she stepped up and told
Speaker 2: the police so that Ty wouldn't be in trouble. I
Speaker 2: did it, I did it alone. I killed these men,
Speaker 2: And so it's you know, it's an unusual story in
Speaker 2: that regard, isn't it, Because usually, you know, people if
Speaker 2: they're sociopathic or worse psychopathic, you know, they go all
Speaker 2: the way with that. But Eileen sort of had these
Speaker 2: acts that would just throw you off course, just when
Speaker 2: you were thinking she was one thing, she would do
Speaker 2: something that showed a different side of her.
Speaker 7: Well, she certainly deserves the attention that she has received
Speaker 7: all these years, the attention that she so desperately craved.
Speaker 7: In the end, she did achieve it, like you say,
Speaker 7: she sort of enjoyed it, it seemed, and some of
Speaker 7: the people in the book would say that that she
Speaker 7: probably would do it all over again for that little
Speaker 7: bit of attention that she did get and she reveled
Speaker 7: in and again, in her misguided world, she thought at
Speaker 7: one time that she would be considered a hero for
Speaker 7: what she did. Again, very very misguided person, yes, But
Speaker 7: certainly she has caught the attention of people throughout the world.
Speaker 7: And this is why this story is still enduring. And
Speaker 7: of course it helps with such a great book like
Speaker 7: Lethal Intent to really really talk about and really explore
Speaker 7: like I said, we had just an hour, an hour
Speaker 7: really just touches on the entire story, especially because you've
Speaker 7: covered the victims' families because it was such a uh
Speaker 7: it's it's such a heartbreaking story from their aspect and
Speaker 7: their positions, and so you have access all that information.
Speaker 2: And you know what we didn't talk about, Dan, which
Speaker 2: is that I just signed a contract with Audible, and
Speaker 2: all right, I didn't want you to.
Speaker 7: Know that are excited. We're excited. Well, I'm excited to
Speaker 7: have Audible, as you know, sponsoring the program as well,
Speaker 7: because you know, with the advent of published on demand,
Speaker 7: which again not that long ago, was not a possibility,
Speaker 7: So people throughout the world have access to the book
Speaker 7: where certainly it wasn't shipped everywhere in the world with
Speaker 7: the conventional postal service. So that's on demand now ebooks
Speaker 7: and if somebody is really you know, has a spur
Speaker 7: of the moment idea, well there it's available to them immediately.
Speaker 7: Now Audible paves the way with downloadable audiobooks, and so
Speaker 7: congratulations on this book being available for everyone, even the experience.
Speaker 7: And I don't know if people have experienced audiobooks, but
Speaker 7: I have in the past, and now I just think
Speaker 7: it's great that you can get them downloadable even more affordable,
Speaker 7: and Audible has like one hundred and fifty thousand titles,
Speaker 7: so it's just amazing. So congratulations not having lethal intent.
Speaker 2: Yes, and I don't know when it'll be quite a waste.
Speaker 2: I have a feeling it can take someone a long
Speaker 2: time to read that book into a microphone, but I
Speaker 2: am very excited about it.
Speaker 7: Yes, Well, they really have some impressive narrators as well,
Speaker 7: so I'm very excited to, you know, listen to the
Speaker 7: audiobook version myself, because it really does bring another dimension
Speaker 7: to I mean, you're not reading it a book, you're
Speaker 7: reading it paperback. You're reading it. But it's for those
Speaker 7: people that you know. I have a big fan named Louise,
Speaker 7: and she drives truck and she listens to my programs
Speaker 7: on mobile devices and wiles away the time. And a
Speaker 7: lot of people are actually accessing this through their iPhones
Speaker 7: and other androids. So it's great for those people that
Speaker 7: are tied up but really want to maximize their entertainment
Speaker 7: time and listen to a great book like ethal Intent
Speaker 7: so on audiobooks so and.
Speaker 2: Vision problems of course, it's perfect too. And I have
Speaker 2: someone close to me who has a vision problem and
Speaker 2: couldn't read the book. So from that point of view,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm excited about that too, that it will
Speaker 2: be available for someone.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, I think that's that was the first
Speaker 7: intent of the audiobook. I think initially that was one
Speaker 7: of their big markets was that, and then I surprisingly
Speaker 7: a lot of people just seem to want to enjoy it,
Speaker 7: you know. But you know, if you start sending audiobooks
Speaker 7: via the postal service, I used to see you know,
Speaker 7: one hundred hundred and fifty dollars box sets of audiobooks,
Speaker 7: so it becomes a little bit prohibitive when it gets
Speaker 7: you know, that costly. What I want to say about
Speaker 7: Audible too, is that for people that don't know ab
Speaker 7: Audible is the biggest provider of radio and television programs
Speaker 7: and also audio versions of magazines and newspapers. So really
Speaker 7: they are you know, I didn't know that until I
Speaker 7: just looked at it myself, and again it's it's right.
Speaker 7: Another I think I think Audible is going to be
Speaker 7: able to provide people, I think, an experience that they're
Speaker 7: they're just not accustomed to. And I just wanted to
Speaker 7: mention too, that they have a thirty day free trial
Speaker 7: right now, and you can get the audiobook that you
Speaker 7: desire just by signing up for that thirty day trial.
Speaker 7: So that's my big plug for Audible, and I'm glad
Speaker 7: we could work that into the conversation with Eal Intent
Speaker 7: being finally offered as an audiobook with Audible.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, thanks do.
Speaker 7: I want to thank you very much for this interview
Speaker 7: and and thank you coming back on. You were one
Speaker 7: of the first authors that were gracious enough to come
Speaker 7: on to my little radio program. And now this radio
Speaker 7: program has got millions of listeners and diehard dedicated fans.
Speaker 7: When I put up a posting about Lethal Intent, it
Speaker 7: was all kinds of people were looking forward to it.
Speaker 7: A lot of people said they were in, you know,
Speaker 7: just withdrawal from not listening to program. And so I
Speaker 7: want to thank you for ushering in the new year,
Speaker 7: the fifth year of True Murder, with coming on and
Speaker 7: talking about your great book, Lethal Intent.
Speaker 2: So thank you very much and congratulations to you five years.
Speaker 2: That's great, Dan, well done.
Speaker 7: Well it's authors like yourself.
Speaker 2: Mhm. Thanks well anyway, thank you any time. Okay, my dear, thank.
Speaker 7: You, Okay, thank you, have a greeting. Thank you very
Speaker 7: much to
Speaker 2: Take care and bye