WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:07.960 Oh is, folks, it's showtime. 2 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.279 People say good money to see this movie. When they 3 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:12.160 go out to a theater. 4 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:16.160 They want cold sodas, pop popcorn and no monsters in 5 00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:17.199 the projection booth. 6 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.199 Everyone pretend podcasting isn't boring. 7 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:46.759 Done at as John Peacock released only fret miss Temula, 8 00:00:47.399 --> 00:01:43.120 I wanted existing stimagine Satya mile i'steen uncle. I can't 9 00:01:43.159 --> 00:01:57.200 do that, mis twell as you missed tell. 10 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:17.080 Mm hmm, since we have told ok, I am any person, 11 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:27.560 the provis or, the Felix Mattil ditch from Mary us 12 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:29.800 pease are carbon ne persy. 13 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:43.159 We don't set your the child any have an appearance 14 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:43.639 a cry. 15 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:51.280 Man then Pigar eclesist world only dements radigogy I did 16 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:52.280 bless Pascal. 17 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:59.960 H m hmm. 18 00:03:39.639 --> 00:03:41.840 Welcome to the projection Booth. I'm your host, Mike White, 19 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:43.800 Jenny once again as MS. Sam Degan. 20 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:44.520 Hello. 21 00:03:45.759 --> 00:03:48.159 Also back in the booth is mister Andrew Leevold. 22 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:51.199 I'm really happy to be here, thank you. 23 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:56.080 We conclude our house August with a look at Jean 24 00:03:56.159 --> 00:04:01.080 Pierre Melville's Army of Shadows, ostensibly a about the French 25 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:05.000 resistance in World War Two. The film stars Lino Ventura 26 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:09.439 as Philippe Xerbier, one of four main resistance fighters we 27 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:13.479 meet as we travel through the underworld, striking out at 28 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.199 the German occupiers and those loyal to the Vshi government. 29 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:20.279 We will be spoiling the film and World War Two 30 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:22.279 as we go along. So if you don't want anything ruined, 31 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:24.480 and if you don't like it when Nazis are called 32 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:27.600 bad people, then this podcast isn't for you. This may 33 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:30.079 be one of those though, where it's better to hear 34 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.319 the podcast before actually watching the film. It might help. So, Sam, 35 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:37.120 when was the first time you saw Army of Shadows? 36 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:38.160 And what did you think? 37 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:41.279 I want to say this was the film that really 38 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:45.600 got me into Melville, So probably fifteen twenty years ago 39 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:49.319 at this point, and I mean, I just instantly fell 40 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:52.600 in love with it. It was so much darker than 41 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:55.079 I think I was expecting, or than I think I 42 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:57.879 was used to because a lot of World War Two 43 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:02.600 films do kind of feel like propaganda, and there's some 44 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:05.160 of that going on here, which I'm sure we'll talk about, 45 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:07.000 but it's just so grim. 46 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:09.279 Andrew, how about yourself? 47 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:12.680 Pretty much the same as Sam, I think fifteen or 48 00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:17.439 twenty years ago, during the early phase of the Melville obsession. 49 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:21.560 I can't remember what order I saw the three films, 50 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:24.920 you know, like Army of Shadows and the two Elaine 51 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:29.160 Delan films on either side. But for me, the film 52 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:33.199 definitely solidified the fact that I was a now a 53 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:37.160 committed Melville file and there was certainly no going back. 54 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:39.360 There was certainly no resistance from my part. 55 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:42.800 This was a new one for me. Of all the 56 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.000 Melvilles that I've seen, I have not seen Army of Shadows, 57 00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:49.000 so I don't know what it was. I've watched it 58 00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:51.120 a few times now, but the very first time I 59 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:53.680 watched it, I just said, I don't think I'm going 60 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:56.199 to understand too much of this film. I'm just going 61 00:05:56.240 --> 00:05:58.600 to let it wash over me and then I'll think 62 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.639 about it later, maybe about it, and then I'll come 63 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:03.279 back to it. But I'm just going to enjoy this 64 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:07.079 experience of being in this world. I mean enjoy quote 65 00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:12.360 unquote because it's so dire and it's that world, I mean, 66 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.720 the physical world of it. I think we said this 67 00:06:15.839 --> 00:06:21.199 before we even started recording, just that muted tone that 68 00:06:21.319 --> 00:06:23.399 he's going for. I mean we saw that a little 69 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:26.959 bit in the circle rouge and then we're for sure 70 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.399 going to see that in Unfleek, and it's just, Yeah, 71 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:34.199 the look of this movie is just so gorgeous. 72 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:39.160 Between like how beautiful it looks and how beautiful the 73 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.480 performances are, I feel like there is kind of this 74 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:47.319 dissonance where you enjoy it and like you said, you 75 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:49.879 kind of let the world of the film wash over you. 76 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:54.319 But at the same time, it's it's such an unpleasant 77 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:58.079 experience because it just like every scene is grim. 78 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:01.079 The silence is in the film, you know, there's so 79 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:04.519 much more deafening than dialogue and so much more oppressive 80 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:12.279 than words that you do get the most uncomfortable breaks 81 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:16.839 in dialogue where you know something terrible is bound to 82 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:19.920 happen and your your mind is just kind of like 83 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:23.360 filling in the blanks, and then what happens is just 84 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:25.800 so much more grim. So that's fun. 85 00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:28.800 This whole movie seems to rely on that as far 86 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:31.720 as the we're going to show you some things, we're 87 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:33.639 not going to show you other things. There are so 88 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:38.399 many times where, like even one of the major sequences 89 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.040 of the film is when they're trying to break somebody 90 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:43.160 out of a hospital or get somebody out of a 91 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:48.160 hospital and they are all in German uniforms, and at 92 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.959 one point, this guy I think the Bison comes in 93 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:55.000 where the buffalo depends on which subtitles you read. He 94 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:59.360 comes in and Simon Signori is there and as Matilda, 95 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:02.639 and she's like, where'd you get the uniforms? Say that's better. 96 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:05.879 I don't tell you, okay, I mean that whole how 97 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.000 did you get the uniforms? Could have been an adventure 98 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:12.639 unto itself, or there's one character where you see him 99 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.120 he's like, oh, yeah, I think I'd be interested in 100 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:19.240 this whole resistance thing, and then two scenes later it's oh, 101 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:21.639 this guy's been on tons of missions. He's good to go, 102 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.800 and we don't see any of those missions in between. 103 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:27.600 And also Stani, I think it's one of those rare 104 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.199 films that if you played it backwards it would still 105 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:32.320 have an unhappy ending. 106 00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:35.240 Well, I guess the ending would be Germans marching out 107 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:40.960 of Paris because of that amazing opening shot of the 108 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:45.840 Germans marching into Oh my gosh, right by the Umpty 109 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.759 ly say the Arcta trionf having that in the background, 110 00:08:49.840 --> 00:08:52.480 and then to have that in the background to your 111 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:56.559 point of the very final shot the Arcta trielphis in there. 112 00:08:57.200 --> 00:08:59.919 I know it's a beautiful book ending of the film, 113 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:05.000 but you can see it through the windshields of their citrone, 114 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:08.279 we assume, and it's sort of like framed within this 115 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.399 almost like this kind of oh, what are the vehicles 116 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:14.639 that you use in funerals? 117 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:15.879 A hearse? 118 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:20.879 Hearse? That car is almost like a hearse because you've 119 00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:24.720 just found out that all four people in that car 120 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:27.480 are more or less being driven to their deaths. 121 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.200 It's one of those films that would maybe be a 122 00:09:32.360 --> 00:09:36.840 good introduction to the actual historical events, like if you're 123 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.559 watching it as a younger person and maybe you don't 124 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:42.840 know as much about the French occupation, because I think 125 00:09:42.919 --> 00:09:49.200 he is able to use his genius as a director 126 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:55.799 who constructs really intricate, well made thrillers into this world 127 00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:59.840 that feels so personal and that it's like, it's fun 128 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:04.039 to think about something like this World War two resistance 129 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:08.200 kind of historical film being so deeply personal for a director, 130 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.279 but like it clearly is so personal, and both from 131 00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:17.320 the adaptation of the book to just the different scenes, 132 00:10:17.559 --> 00:10:20.120 it's like you get the sense that he lived it 133 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:24.240 in a way that I think the majority of World 134 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:27.600 War Two films or war films period don't have this 135 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:28.960 kind of quality to them. 136 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:33.360 Yeah, but he's also reconstructed his memories of World War Two, 137 00:10:34.279 --> 00:10:39.080 and he's put them through a kind of film nerds siev, 138 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.120 you know, so that it's all become kind of mashed 139 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.799 up into a big pink paste, and then he's rearranged 140 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:53.360 it according to pulp fiction or genre cinema principles and 141 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:59.440 quite clearly cinematic ideas that would have been prevalent in 142 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:01.639 the thirty and forties when he was a young man 143 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:05.240 that he is now kind of reconstructing as a as 144 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:06.960 an elder of French cinema. 145 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:10.879 Which is crazy to think that when this came out 146 00:11:11.120 --> 00:11:14.720 in France, now we think about it as such a classic, 147 00:11:15.320 --> 00:11:19.080 but when it came out people hated it, partly because 148 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:23.080 the younger generation, who would all become part of the 149 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:27.000 French New Wave, really pointed out that this was like 150 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:31.000 an older model of filmmaking and therefore not in vogue 151 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:35.600 and not worthy of attention. And that combined with the 152 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.279 fact that he it's such a strange film because it's 153 00:11:39.320 --> 00:11:44.600 like he paints the resistance fighters individually as fundamentally heroic, 154 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.279 and so the issue of releasing a film in the 155 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:51.879 late sixties that glorified the resistance and made it seem 156 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:56.279 like the majority of French citizens supported the resistance, which 157 00:11:56.399 --> 00:11:59.639 was not at all true. It's like a film that 158 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:04.279 came at the wrong time and didn't get appreciated basically 159 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:09.120 for decades. But it's even with those elements. I don't 160 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:13.399 get how any of those kyaucinema writers could have watched 161 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.799 this and thought it was a bad film, like just 162 00:12:15.879 --> 00:12:17.000 an insane tea. 163 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:19.480 I suspect that they didn't even bother to watch it. 164 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:24.159 I think they just saw the subject matter French resistance 165 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.639 during World War Two and wrote it off after May 166 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:33.720 sixty eight as old fashioned, as reactionary. And so he 167 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:41.559 became redundant almost as a filmmaker overnight because his concern 168 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:47.120 was with you the nineteen forties, and therefore it just 169 00:12:47.240 --> 00:12:48.679 wasn't cool anymore. 170 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.840 Yeah, but it makes you want to like bend them 171 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:56.399 over your knee and give them, give them a spanking. 172 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:00.320 They didn't see the film because the film is anything 173 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:01.320 but reactionary. 174 00:13:02.039 --> 00:13:05.000 They just wanted to tear down the old you know. Yeah, 175 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:08.240 And then with like you said with May sixty eight 176 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:12.399 and then the glorification of Degaull and this, you know, 177 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:15.000 the big moment where Degaul gives one of the characters 178 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:18.799 a ribbon. All right, this is great, but by that point, yeah, 179 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:21.840 completely out of fashion, Like, don't glorify to Gaul at 180 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:23.559 that point that had. 181 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:26.919 Been going on for a while. But if you actually 182 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.240 watched this in the late sixties, which you know, I 183 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.720 was not alive for that. But I feel like you 184 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.759 can also, even though this was not intentional on Melville's part, 185 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:40.879 I think you can still draw parallels between this film 186 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:44.039 and something like the Algerian War and this sense of 187 00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:50.039 needing to resist despite the inevitability of things like torture 188 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.440 and death and possible defeed, and this idea of there 189 00:13:54.559 --> 00:14:02.279 being this overwhelming enemy that you don't necessarily know that 190 00:14:02.480 --> 00:14:06.600 you can overcome, but you're fighting anyway. So I yeah, 191 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:08.559 I don't know. I think Andrew must be right. And 192 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:13.600 they probably didn't see it or went into it determined 193 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:14.080 to hate it. 194 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.320 Yeah, and tear him down. I believe. The other criticism 195 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:21.840 leveled at the film at the time was that he 196 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:26.879 was trying to make resistance fighters seem like gangsters, and 197 00:14:27.000 --> 00:14:30.759 they were like the characters that would appear in some 198 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:35.759 of his earlier policia films. And I mean that's a 199 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:41.000 really facile kind of argument as well, because these stories 200 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.840 exist outside of their generic structures. I mean, you've got 201 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:50.039 here resistance fighters that are kind of like gangster figures 202 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.840 in other Melville films. You've got the Gestapo who may 203 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:58.279 as well be the cops or lef Flick, you know 204 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:02.600 what I mean. And really, those those genres are just 205 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:07.879 vehicles for Melville to tell his stories, to tell the 206 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.799 those elements of tales that he himself fetishizes, which is, 207 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:22.440 you know, stories of loyalty, deceit, betrayal and other big 208 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:27.360 picture terms like that. And you can only really get 209 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:32.840 that level of intensity within a genre such as, you know, 210 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:38.600 a film about the French resistance or about the criminal underworld. 211 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:44.240 So really it was just it was convenient that he 212 00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:47.480 was able to draw on his own past, his own 213 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.399 sets of personal fetishes, to be able to tell a 214 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.639 story of the resistance using these kind of underworld figures. 215 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:00.679 But I do think it's appropriate because one of the 216 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:03.919 criticisms at the time, and I think even into the 217 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:08.279 seventies was the way that this as I think, I said, 218 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.120 the way that this makes it seem like most French 219 00:16:11.240 --> 00:16:15.600 citizens were sympathetic to the resistance and participated in it, 220 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.039 even in some kind of soft way, which as we know, 221 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.559 is absolutely not true. But I don't know. I just 222 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:29.159 I think this idea that painting resistance fighters as criminals 223 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:33.519 and as gangsters, I think it's true to life, because 224 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:39.440 occupations forced people into criminal activity. Like once you have 225 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:45.279 something like a military occupying force, a colonial occupying force 226 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.879 that creates a whole set of laws about what citizens 227 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.000 can and cannot do, you drive people to crime and violence. 228 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.919 And with the case of the French resistance, I think 229 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:59.320 the people who actually got involved, I mean, as the 230 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.679 film point out, you have once you sign up for 231 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.400 something like that, I think they had a six month 232 00:17:06.920 --> 00:17:10.720 life expectancy, so you're basically signing yourself up for a 233 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:14.000 death sentence, and that takes a particular type of person. 234 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:18.000 And it's also, as the film I think really points out, 235 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.359 the people who excel the most in the resistance and 236 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.920 were able to do the most effective work were people 237 00:17:24.960 --> 00:17:28.799 who didn't have qualms about violence, who were able to 238 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:33.480 murder people, or maybe they had military experience from the 239 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:37.000 First World War that gave them that particular skill set. 240 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:40.720 But you also have people who were actually engaged in 241 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:45.160 criminal activity signing up. So it's like that kind of 242 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:49.200 criticism that you know, he's taking these sort of revered 243 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.000 figures of the war and turning them into gangsters. It's 244 00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:55.160 like they were gangsters. They're blowing up cars and trains 245 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.039 and doing whatever they had to do. 246 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:02.279 They described the Felix as a terrorist when they tried 247 00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:04.839 to pick him up from the hospital, and all right, yeah, 248 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.079 I guess that would be how they'd be painted as 249 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:11.319 not resistance fighters but terrorists by the system. 250 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.400 But also I think it's important to point out not 251 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.240 just by the Nazi occupying force, but also by a 252 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:23.079 lot of the French population who were comfortable. It's like, 253 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:28.359 as long as you weren't Jewish or Communist or overtly outspoken, 254 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:32.000 the Nazis treated the French very differently from any other 255 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.319 country they occupied, and I think that kind of explains 256 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:40.160 why so many average French citizens were quick to turn 257 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:43.160 a blind eye, because for the most part they were comfortable, 258 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:46.559 which I think he does sort of get at a 259 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:47.640 little bit with the film. 260 00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.440 Oh, I would also explain why Marine Lepine had such 261 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:57.680 a massive swing towards her basically National Front party in 262 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:01.480 the recent French elections, because once you go outside of 263 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.880 the cities in France and you go into rural France, 264 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:13.559 they're deeply conservative, deeply racist, deeply fearful of communism and 265 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:20.119 other races. And so I think that decent percentage of 266 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.039 the population would have seen the Nazis as a kind 267 00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:28.000 of cleansing agent of all of these decadent and disreputable 268 00:19:28.279 --> 00:19:32.799 influences on France back in the thirties and forties. 269 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.920 Well, and also a cleansing influence that would remove quote 270 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:42.680 unquote foreigners from the country. And yeah, it's I think 271 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.759 there are definitely some parallels to Marine La penn But 272 00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:50.160 it's also kind of heartbreaking when you think about someone 273 00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:53.119 like Melville, who would have been seen as an outsider 274 00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:57.359 because he was Jewish, and the fact that so many 275 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:02.200 French Jews whose families had lived there for centuries, like 276 00:20:02.319 --> 00:20:07.039 they were French people, they weren't outsiders. But that conservative contingent, 277 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:12.160 I think is just determined to have that kind of 278 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:15.519 make France great great again mentality. 279 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:20.759 Well, it's interesting because you're talking about the how people 280 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:23.200 are playing along with these guys. And really, when I 281 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.839 think about it, there's two regular citizens that they bump 282 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.480 into that to your point, they help out. I mean, 283 00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:34.880 Serge Reggiani shows up. I mean that whole scene at 284 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:38.880 the barber shop I think is fantastic, the whole is 285 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.119 he going to turn me in? Is he not going to? 286 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.160 He's got that kind of vchy poster on the wall, 287 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:46.799 and you know, but then he ends up giving him 288 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:49.839 the coat. And then that woman at the train station 289 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:54.000 when she's going along with a Gen Francois, and then 290 00:20:54.119 --> 00:20:57.920 the cops. The cops at the train station, I think 291 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:00.559 they're looking for stuff they can steal out of these 292 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.240 suitcases more than anything, and what the radios just don't 293 00:21:04.279 --> 00:21:07.400 really interest them. And then there's the cops that are 294 00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:12.000 in the van with JBA at the beginning and what 295 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:15.240 they were talking about how great that prison camp is 296 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:19.039 because they built it for the Germans or no that, yeah, 297 00:21:19.119 --> 00:21:21.359 they built it for the Germans, so it's going to 298 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:24.160 be really comfy and everything. And he says something about 299 00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:27.240 like we built it during the Phony War. Is that 300 00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:28.799 a World War One reference? 301 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:34.319 I think it's a reference to the years before world 302 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:36.160 War Two actually kicked. 303 00:21:35.960 --> 00:21:41.440 Off before the Vishi government took over and said, you know, welcome. 304 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:46.680 There's this period in the very beginning of World War 305 00:21:46.759 --> 00:21:52.200 Two where the Nazis invade Austria and then they invade 306 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:57.839 Czechoslovakia and that I think that's the period where World 307 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.400 War Two had actually begun but it didn't impact France 308 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:06.519 at all yet, but they set everything up assuming that 309 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:10.519 battle would break out. And because like for anyone who 310 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.160 doesn't know this history, I think it's confusing because it's 311 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.880 easy to assume that everyone was immediately against Hitler, which is, 312 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:24.000 you know, not true. Unfortunately, like you said, we will 313 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:29.119 be spoiling World War Two in this episode. But the 314 00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:31.480 fact that the French government kind of went back and 315 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:34.000 forth like yes, we have to defend our borders, but 316 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:36.640 also they're not really going to attack us. How bad 317 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:39.359 can it be? And so I think that period in 318 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.759 nineteen thirty nine is the is what's referred to as 319 00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:46.519 the phony War. Do you think that you need an 320 00:22:46.599 --> 00:22:50.680 understanding of World War Two in France to really get 321 00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:54.440 this film, because I don't entirely. I think the way 322 00:22:54.519 --> 00:22:57.319 that he structures it, like Andrew has been pointing out 323 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.759 like it's a gangster movie. It's like he does so 324 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:03.240 much work building this world that I think you can 325 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:07.359 go into the film knowing French people versus Nazis and 326 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:10.319 you don't need to know too many other details. 327 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.839 Well, it was for a French audience in nineteen sixty nine, 328 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:16.400 you know, and most of the people who would have 329 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.039 been watching the film would have lived through it, so 330 00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:24.160 they don't need context. I mean, you know, Usp Sucker 331 00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.680 is now more than fifty years after the release of 332 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:29.759 the film, and I mean this film came out before 333 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:33.200 even I was born. I'm feeling pretty damn old right now. 334 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:37.039 The fact that there was a collaborative government, you know, 335 00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:41.119 the Vichy puppet government in France at the time. If 336 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.319 you don't know that that was going on, this film 337 00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:46.039 might be a little confusing. It's like, who are the 338 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:49.880 bad guys here? You know, I thought the French were 339 00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:54.720 with us man, but no. It's the great stain on 340 00:23:55.400 --> 00:24:00.400 the French soul that a great percentage and probably more, 341 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.960 as Melville would have pointed out, more people siding with 342 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:09.839 the Germans than with the resistance. You know, that's the great, 343 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:13.480 the great shame of the country that so many of 344 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:17.759 the population went, you know, who cares about the Jews. 345 00:24:18.440 --> 00:24:23.799 In the three decades following World War Two, no one 346 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:28.720 talked about that. There's this immediate glorification of the resistance 347 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:33.839 that happens basically in nineteen forty five on where there 348 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:37.400 is this kind of myth that the government and French 349 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.720 culture and French citizens build around this idea that everyone 350 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:44.519 participated in the resistance. You know, the whole country was 351 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.119 against the Nazis the whole time. 352 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.079 Oh yeah, if you were in the Viishi government, you 353 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:51.759 had a gun pointed directly at your forehead, was the idea? 354 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.319 Oh yes, So much so that the stuff has become 355 00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:59.039 tropes for movies. I mean, as they're introducing La Masque 356 00:24:59.079 --> 00:25:02.160 and Le Bisson, I'm thinking of you know, let chocolate 357 00:25:02.319 --> 00:25:07.000 Moose from Top Secret, you know, just like resistance films 358 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:09.920 became a subgenre of movie. 359 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.599 So I think there's a real lost opportunity here. I 360 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.039 reckon Phelipe Jerbier, he should have had a cool nickname 361 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:21.160 like Legerbille. That would have been really boss. 362 00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:24.000 That would have been much more like heist movie appropriate. 363 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:29.279 But this comes at an interesting time because, as I 364 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:35.160 said earlier, it like French resistance movies became, like you said, 365 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:41.359 such a mainstream, popular subgenre, but they feel like these 366 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:47.799 really kind of stripped down adventure films that are propaganda 367 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:50.119 for how great French people are. So it's like, you 368 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:53.119 have this movie come out in the late sixties that 369 00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.160 it doesn't say anything bad about the resistance fighters other 370 00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:00.960 than the moral lengths they're willing to go to. But 371 00:26:01.119 --> 00:26:03.680 then right after this you have The Sorrow and the 372 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.039 Pity come out, the great Off Fuels film, and The 373 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:11.200 Sorrow and the Pity is basically like fuck everyone France 374 00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:16.279 did not did not support the resistance, and it's just 375 00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:19.400 like interesting to see them come back to back and 376 00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:22.920 the scandals that they both caused in very different ways. 377 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:27.759 But people don't like being reminded that their shills for Nazis. 378 00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:30.000 I can't understand why. 379 00:26:31.039 --> 00:26:33.200 Well, maybe don't side with them in the first place. 380 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:38.279 Maybe maybe I mean the whole idea of this being 381 00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:42.559 a gangster film, Ian I consider, yes, this does feel 382 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:44.240 like a gangster film. I know a lot of people 383 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:46.440 rail against that, like no, no, no, it's not a 384 00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:48.880 gangster film, but yeah, it totally feels like it. And 385 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:52.359 there are so many moments where it's a heist. But 386 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.519 Melville handles heists and gangster films like no one else. 387 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:01.440 So the idea of building tension. There's the whole thing 388 00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:05.480 of you know, helping Serbia escape, you know, that's an 389 00:27:05.559 --> 00:27:08.680 amazing scene, and it's basically a heist. Or trying to 390 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.200 get Felix out of the hospital. That's basically a heist 391 00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:15.160 when you think about it. Even going back to the 392 00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.319 scene in the I guess the Nazis took over these 393 00:27:18.440 --> 00:27:21.880 grand hotels, right, and so the scene in the hotel 394 00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.720 with the two men with Serbia and the other guy 395 00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:27.799 that he gets sat down next to, the tension in 396 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:32.559 that scene before they escape is just incredible. The editing 397 00:27:32.759 --> 00:27:36.240 is great, just looking at these guys faces and just 398 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.799 wondering when is this going to happen, and then when 399 00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:44.440 it does, it just is crazy. And then I also, 400 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.039 speaking of things that are left off screen, you don't 401 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:50.160