1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,760 Speaker 1: I want to go to the biblical text and I 2 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,919 want to show in some ways the role of this 3 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,639 aspect of creation, what we could call the role of 4 00:00:06,679 --> 00:00:11,279 the earth in the creation narrative. It's difficult to talk 5 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,080 about this, and the reason why it's difficult to talk 6 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:21,359 about is because negativity or absence or void is that 7 00:00:21,399 --> 00:00:25,399 which should not be talked about. When we talk about 8 00:00:25,519 --> 00:00:31,399 the void, when we talk about the emptiness, we run 9 00:00:31,839 --> 00:00:39,280 into danger of moving into performative contradiction. And so please 10 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,719 take everything I say with a kind of quiet silence, 11 00:00:43,719 --> 00:00:48,640 with a kind of waiting to know that we never 12 00:00:48,719 --> 00:00:51,320 really talk about the void, and it's very dangerous to 13 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,359 do so. But sometimes we have to turn around it. 14 00:00:54,439 --> 00:00:58,479 Sometimes we have to, let's say, hint at it in ways. 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,799 And so this is probably the time where I'm going 16 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:16,040 to talk about it the most clearly. This is Jonathan Pegel, 17 00:01:16,719 --> 00:01:30,079 Welcome to the symbolic world. So when God created the 18 00:01:30,159 --> 00:01:34,680 Earth and the heavens, it is described, of course that 19 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,640 the earth was empty and void, and that the spirit 20 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,599 of God, which is equivalent to heaven, was above the 21 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,599 surface of the deep. So we have these three images 22 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,400 emptiness and void of deep. This is of course related 23 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:58,400 to chaos ultimately, and usually, you know, I like to 24 00:01:58,439 --> 00:02:01,400 talk about symbolism, and I like to talk about how 25 00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:04,400 things come together and how things, you know, join together 26 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,439 towards unity. But it is always important to remember this 27 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:15,560 other aspect, this aspect of the earth. And recently, interestingly enough, 28 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:21,319 my daughter, who I love very much, has been, let's say, 29 00:02:21,319 --> 00:02:25,240 preoccupied by this question and therefore has been reading a 30 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,919 lot of modern authors that emphasize the negativity of being, 31 00:02:31,879 --> 00:02:36,599 the absence, alterity, difference. Of course, so many of the 32 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,159 postmodern writers, whether it's de Luce or Derrida, whether it's 33 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:47,560 earlier writers like Jeff Battai or you know, Emmanuel Emmanuel Levinas, 34 00:02:47,599 --> 00:02:55,719 so many of the the influential kind of contemporary philosophers 35 00:02:55,840 --> 00:03:00,120 have tried to deal with the question of negativity. You 36 00:03:00,159 --> 00:03:02,240 could say, you know, I'm using a term, but the 37 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,840 questions of you know, the other aspects of being that 38 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:10,199 we often don't talk about, whether it is in terms 39 00:03:10,199 --> 00:03:15,400 of emphasizing difference, whether it is in terms of emphasizing negativity, 40 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:22,520 emphasizing outside all of these kinds of questions. So I 41 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,039 thought it might be a good idea to look at this, 42 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,080 you know, hopefully to engage in a conversation with my 43 00:03:28,439 --> 00:03:32,199 own daughter, but also with all of those that have 44 00:03:32,439 --> 00:03:38,000 a nagging sense that this is an important question. And 45 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,879 it is an important question, and especially important because there 46 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,439 is a kind of political divide that is related to this. 47 00:03:47,719 --> 00:03:49,599 It is of course related to the end of the 48 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,919 World War two consensus as well, because one of the 49 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:57,240 things that happened after World War Two is that the 50 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,800 authors that we considered we consider avante guard even the 51 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,639 ones that were there before World War Two, basically got 52 00:04:05,639 --> 00:04:08,919 consolidated into a, let's say, a group or a movement 53 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,120 that we could call progressivism or the avant garde. And 54 00:04:13,159 --> 00:04:18,040 it's very easy to understand that these authors, they tend 55 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:24,000 to emphasize disruption over continuity, they tend to emphasize difference 56 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,360 over sameness. And this for very important reasons, which is 57 00:04:28,879 --> 00:04:33,839 because of the way the war ended, because the Axis 58 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,600 and what it tried to bring about was defeated by 59 00:04:38,639 --> 00:04:42,680 the Allies. It is completely normal that these authors that 60 00:04:43,199 --> 00:04:47,959 in some ways were emphasizing the question of disruption, whether 61 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,160 it is in terms of revolution, that is, even in 62 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,920 terms of Marxist or neo Marxist terms, whether it is 63 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:59,199 more esthetically, whathether it is more about difference and alterity 64 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,000 in all that would not necessarily have identified themselves as 65 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,959 as Marxists. But there is a kind of flavor, right, 66 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,439 There's a kind of smell in many of these thinkers 67 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:15,079 that help us see that they are related to this 68 00:05:15,439 --> 00:05:20,600 need to understand difference, discontinuity and negativity. And so what 69 00:05:20,639 --> 00:05:23,279 I'd like to do is I want to go to 70 00:05:23,319 --> 00:05:25,240 the Biblical text and I want to show in some 71 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,319 ways the role of this aspect of creation, what we 72 00:05:28,319 --> 00:05:31,920 could call the role of the earth in the creation narrative. 73 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,600 It's difficult to talk about this, and the reason why 74 00:05:35,639 --> 00:05:41,680 it's difficult to talk about is because negativity or absence 75 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,560 or void is that which should not be talked about. 76 00:05:46,759 --> 00:05:49,759 When we talk about the void, when we talk about 77 00:05:50,319 --> 00:05:59,240 the emptiness, we run into danger of moving into performative contradiction. 78 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,000 And so please take everything I say with a kind 79 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:10,079 of quiet silence, with a kind of waiting to know 80 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,040 that we never really talk about the void, and it's 81 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,639 very dangerous to do so. But sometimes we have to 82 00:06:16,199 --> 00:06:19,879 turn around it. Sometimes we have to, let's say, hint 83 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,560 at it in ways. And so this is probably the 84 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,160 time where I'm going to talk about it the most clearly, 85 00:06:26,079 --> 00:06:30,519 and hopefully this will serve the good ultimately and not 86 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:35,600 simply mistake the void for the good. Let's say it 87 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:40,040 that way. And so it says in the beginning God 88 00:06:40,079 --> 00:06:42,959 created heaven and earth again, and the earth was empty 89 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,680 and void. And a good way to think about this 90 00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:49,199 is to really understand this as the primordial opposite. It 91 00:06:49,319 --> 00:06:52,519 is the same as in every single culture, the yin 92 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,800 the yang that is represented as heaven and earth as 93 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,160 masculine feminine, whether it is you know, in the the 94 00:07:00,439 --> 00:07:04,519 Greek Theogony, whether it is Uranos and Guaya, the Father 95 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:09,519 God and the Mother Earth. All of these are versions 96 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:14,079 of the same. So it really is a universal image. 97 00:07:14,079 --> 00:07:17,480 It is not one which is defined only by the 98 00:07:17,519 --> 00:07:20,920 Bible or by Christianity, but it is something that exists 99 00:07:20,959 --> 00:07:25,600 in all cultures. But to understand this separation of heaven 100 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:30,000 and earth is really the most primordial separation, and a 101 00:07:30,079 --> 00:07:32,560 way to talk about it so that it maybe is 102 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,319 leaves the mythological realm at the outset is a way 103 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,720 I like to talk about it as that and not that, 104 00:07:41,759 --> 00:07:43,879 you know, it's a very simple way to talk about it, 105 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,959 one which people might say is too simple, But hopefully 106 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,680 as we talk about, as we kind of explore, you'll 107 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,879 start to understand the relationship between that and not that. 108 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,959 Speaker 2: Greeting's friends, cosmographers, fellow symbolists, this is Joshua from Eighth 109 00:08:00,079 --> 00:08:03,079 Day Books, inviting you to join me and studying a 110 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:08,199 remarkable cosmic coincidence. Why is it that writers, philosophers, and 111 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:12,279 prophets from many times in places have all told us 112 00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:17,079 that contemplating the night sky makes our own souls similarly 113 00:08:17,199 --> 00:08:21,800 more beautiful and more ordered. Hebrew and Hindu, Greek and Chinese. 114 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,160 They've all told us that looking up is the same 115 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,600 as looking in, and that we are as much citizens 116 00:08:29,639 --> 00:08:34,240 of the sky as we are of earth. In February, 117 00:08:34,279 --> 00:08:38,200 we will be looking at Pythagorea and folk tales, biblical wisdom, literature, 118 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,759 and contemporary novelists to ask these questions. It'll be a 119 00:08:42,879 --> 00:08:47,519 challenging course, but not technical. I teach medieval philosophy and 120 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,240 Renaissance literature, and I'm condensing a year's worth of information 121 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,639 into a few wonderfilled hours. Please join me for some Plato, 122 00:08:55,759 --> 00:08:59,639 some poetry, and some practical skygazing, all to help us 123 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,080 pursue the art of imitating Heaven see you very soon. 124 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:18,279 Speaker 1: And so in the Bible, this separation between heaven and earth, 125 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:23,759 you could call it, you know, identity and difference. You know, 126 00:09:23,879 --> 00:09:26,559 that is also a good way of understanding that and 127 00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:32,080 not that and this not that is absolutely necessary for 128 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,279 the existence of the world, because what the earth produces 129 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:43,480 is variability, right, variability is difference. And so even when 130 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:49,080 God is creating the world, he is constantly engaging difference 131 00:09:49,159 --> 00:09:53,399 and variability and not that into the equation. You have 132 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,480 to understand creation as a kind of dance between that 133 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,799 and not that, between identity and difference. And every time 134 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,240 that God, you know, separates and every time that God 135 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,799 kind of calls for variation in the creation narrative, you 136 00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:13,480 have to understand it as this dance. Now, of course, 137 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,240 you know, in the Bible and in Christianity, we really 138 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,000 understand it as a complimentary, complementary relationship. That is, in fact, 139 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,039 both of them are needed for the existence of the world. 140 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:29,440 And of course, then not that has a particular characteristic 141 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,960 and we'll see why. In some ways it is always hushed, right, 142 00:10:34,039 --> 00:10:36,879 it is always kind. It is not that which is 143 00:10:36,919 --> 00:10:40,919 put forward because by its very nature it is emptiness 144 00:10:40,919 --> 00:10:46,480 and void, and therefore it is always let's say, implied, 145 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:51,960 and it's always underneath reality. And that's why you'll rarely 146 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,919 find even theologians that will talk about it, you know, 147 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,120 especially the ancient fathers. And so people will say, well, 148 00:10:58,159 --> 00:11:00,679 why Jonathan are you talking about it? Well, the reason 149 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,679 why I'm talking about it is because for the last 150 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:06,759 one hundred years at least and more in some regards, 151 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:13,080 people have been obsessed with understanding the problem of the negative, right, 152 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:19,200 the problem of the emptiness and the problem of the void. Now, 153 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,360 in order to kind of start to understand, you have 154 00:11:21,399 --> 00:11:24,440 to see in the scripture what happens. And so when 155 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:29,799 God is creating the world, there are two examples where 156 00:11:29,799 --> 00:11:32,360 you see this very beautifully. You know, God says to 157 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:38,879 the earth, he says, let the earth produce vegetation, vegetation 158 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,639 with seed inside it. And so it's really interesting because 159 00:11:42,639 --> 00:11:46,919 we often think of God as creating things directly, but 160 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,000 in this case, God is not creating things directly. God 161 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,519 is giving a major category, you know, which is vegetation, 162 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,840 and then he he asks the earth to produce variability 163 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,679 on that category. So he's asking the earth to produce 164 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:05,639 difference he says, produce all kinds of vegetation. I'm not 165 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:08,360 going to even tell you how many, how many varieties, 166 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,159 what exactly it is you do. I want you to 167 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:17,320 create variation, to generate variation on a unity, which is vegetation. 168 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:20,720 But what's important is, of course, I'm also going to 169 00:12:20,759 --> 00:12:25,039 put heaven inside of that variation, which is that each 170 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,320 identity that will come out will have a seed in it, 171 00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:33,200 So produce vegetation with seed inside. That of course, is 172 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:37,159 saying that this relationship between heaven and earth, between the 173 00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:40,120 one and difference, you could say the one and the 174 00:12:40,159 --> 00:12:42,879 many as well the many, in the sense of how 175 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:48,960 it is not completely the one. You'll start to see, 176 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,120 you know, how it is a fractal relationship. And you 177 00:12:53,159 --> 00:12:55,600 see that right at the outset. Because when God creates 178 00:12:55,639 --> 00:12:59,039 heaven and Earth, the first thing he does is he 179 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:04,639 separates the earth. He puts a second heaven inside the waters. 180 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,960 He said, let though there be waters above and waters below, 181 00:13:08,399 --> 00:13:12,720 and then we will there will be a firmament beneath 182 00:13:12,799 --> 00:13:15,799 between the waters. And so what that means is that 183 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,559 everything that we encounter, everything that exists in the world, 184 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,440 is earth. Right. It is an aspect of Earth. It 185 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,759 is an aspect of a variation, it's an aspect of difference, 186 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:30,919 it is an aspect of change. It has all of 187 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:35,240 this inside of it, because it is all in the earth, right. 188 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:37,519 And I think it was Saint Augustine who hinted that 189 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,360 when you look around and even if you look at 190 00:13:39,399 --> 00:13:41,279 the stars and you look at the sun, what you're 191 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,840 seeing is all the earth. You know, because Heaven has 192 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:51,120 pure actuality is not available to us. Of course, it's 193 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,720 also true that the earth has kind of pure chaos 194 00:13:53,840 --> 00:14:00,000 or pure potentiality, is also not completely not completely available 195 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,320 to us. But at least in the story of the creation, 196 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:08,320 God is bringing Heaven into Earth and creating a version 197 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,639 of Heaven inside the earth or at the firmament that's 198 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,759 inside the waters, and then everything that will be created 199 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:18,200 inside will also be, you know, an aspect of that variability. 200 00:14:20,559 --> 00:14:23,600 And so you can see that this is extremely important 201 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:30,120 in understanding how things function now to really understand the 202 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,039 the aspect of the the negativity, right, or the aspect 203 00:14:34,159 --> 00:14:37,080 of of heaven. And one of the things that that 204 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,039 that I talk about, but I know my brother always 205 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,080 talks about it as well, is to kind of understand 206 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:48,240 the earth aspect as a question right, or as a 207 00:14:49,399 --> 00:14:53,519 how about this? Right? So imagine God says let the earth, 208 00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:57,320 let the earth produce vegetation. And now the earth what 209 00:14:57,399 --> 00:14:59,679 it does is it proposes, and it says, well, how 210 00:14:59,679 --> 00:15:03,440 about this? What about this? Does this fit? Is this 211 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:07,039 part of what you're saying? And it's constantly asking questions 212 00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:12,320 of the identity, it's always asking questions of heaven and saying, 213 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,759 you know, how does how does your identity adjust to this? 214 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,120 How does your identity fit in this context in this time? 215 00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:25,000 You know? How does justice apply to this particular context 216 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,960 where someone has just done something and has been put 217 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,480 in jail? How does justice apply to this particular situation? 218 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,320 In a war where two people are fighting, And so 219 00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:39,279 the earth or the particular or the difference, you know, 220 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,559 or the negativity can be understood as not that, but 221 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,919 understood as not that which is asking the question is it? That? 222 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,240 Is it? This? Is it? Is it? What is it? Right? 223 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:55,960 And this question can be understood at many levels. It 224 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,799 can understood, of course, you know, as the identity itself, 225 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:01,240 like what is this? And it could also be understood 226 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,200 is how does this identity apply to this particular situation? 227 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,759 And now of course, you know some of the truth Fathers, 228 00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:13,919 they in some ways deal with this, not exactly in 229 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,279 the same way that I'm trying to help you understand. 230 00:16:16,279 --> 00:16:18,960 But let's say Sam Maximus, he talks about what he 231 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,960 calls logos and tropos, which is the idea that all 232 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:26,159 beings have a logos. They have they have an identity 233 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,200 which binds them together in a in one. But then 234 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,799 they have a tropos, which is that the way in 235 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:36,120 which that identity is then adjusted or applied in different 236 00:16:36,159 --> 00:16:41,240 context is the tropos. Now, of course Sam Maximus does 237 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,200 it deal with the question of of of negativity per se. 238 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,000 He only he sees it more from the pop from 239 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:51,120 the let's say, from the perspective of positivity, for the 240 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,200 from the perspective of how different identities in their kind 241 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,559 of in the kind of fullness of creation, how different 242 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,679 identities can manifest multiplicity and variation on the theme. But 243 00:17:02,759 --> 00:17:06,359 you can also, like I'm trying to do now, understand 244 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,079 it from the point of view of the negative, from 245 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,960 the point of view of the space. Of course, one 246 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,920 of the ancient, ancient understandings of this relationship is one 247 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,359 of the is that I've already hinted to you already, 248 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,319 which is the relationship between the man and the woman, 249 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,400 that is the relationship between male and female in their 250 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,920 specific role. You know, in terms of sexual reproduction. You 251 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,559 can understand that the way that it's understood by the 252 00:17:35,599 --> 00:17:40,200 ancients is that the man is the head, and the 253 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,920 man provides the seed, and then the mother or the 254 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,279 woman will have the womb. That is, it is an 255 00:17:49,319 --> 00:17:52,400 opening of an empty space. Right, it is a place 256 00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:57,480 in which the seed will come, and then from the 257 00:17:57,559 --> 00:18:02,200 earth will gather body from potential reality and will become 258 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,240 a child. And so the child is you know, a 259 00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:11,200 representation of the father, but is also not the father, right, 260 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,720 is also not that. And then the brothers and sisters 261 00:18:15,759 --> 00:18:18,480 are all part of the same family, but they are 262 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:21,039 also not each other. They are different from each other. 263 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,240 And so what the earth is always producing with the 264 00:18:24,279 --> 00:18:28,119 womb is producing is variability. And of course his veriability 265 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,240 is fractal, like we've always said. So of course the 266 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:34,160 child itself, but then every single aspect of the person 267 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,359 will have its own very particular instantiation, which will both 268 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:44,640 make it the same and always different as something else. 269 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,119 And you know, in the story, for example, of the Theogony, 270 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:53,119 the had theogony. You can see how this can of 271 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,880 course go awry. It's a very powerful image where in fact, 272 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,480 the Father is having relationships with the mother. You know, 273 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:03,960 the heaven is having relationships with the Mother and is 274 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,359 producing variations on heaven. In the earth is producing things 275 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,599 that have filiation to heaven. But there are some aspects 276 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,079 that the earth produces which are understood as being not 277 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,640 connected or that they are monsters, right, they are excessive variation. 278 00:19:23,599 --> 00:19:26,279 And so you know, these are the giants, the early 279 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,839 giants that had you know, ten thousand arms in ten 280 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,799 thousand heads, like these crazy descriptions of these insane giants. 281 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,599 And of course the Father then is judging, and the 282 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,119 Father will say no to that aspect of the world. 283 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,079 And in that particular case, you can see it from 284 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,160 the point of view the Father of course as saying, well, 285 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,640 you know, we don't want these giants in the world. 286 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,799 But you can also understand it from the point of 287 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,400 view of the mother that is producing this variation and 288 00:19:56,559 --> 00:19:59,240 sees it from the point of view of variation, and therefore, 289 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,880 in this particular case, you know, is more interested in 290 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:08,680 the variation than in the filiation, and therefore sees the 291 00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:15,000 judgment of the God as an affront to variation. So, 292 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,480 you know, you can kind of almost understand all of 293 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:22,200 postmodern theory as this type of reaction when in some 294 00:20:22,279 --> 00:20:26,400 ways there is a sense that there's something unjust about 295 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:30,559 the capacity for heaven, the capacity for logos, the capacity 296 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:34,400 for identity to exclude in the capacity for identity to 297 00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:39,359 judge the beings. And so it is possible to kind 298 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,880 of see this, this this gap now of course, in 299 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,279 the in the Christian perspective, you know, in the in 300 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:53,880 the in the perspective of scripture, when the earth, you 301 00:20:53,920 --> 00:21:02,440 could say, when the Earth reacts in that way, one 302 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,400 of the things it's doing is not being itself right. 303 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,960 And this is of course the revolutionary gesture. That is 304 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:19,000 when emptiness tries to act as being. This is when 305 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,680 there is sin. This is when things go awry. Now, 306 00:21:24,519 --> 00:21:26,559 it's a little hard to understand it at the outset 307 00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:28,839 when you think of heaven and earth, But when we're 308 00:21:28,839 --> 00:21:30,839 going to get to the other opposites, you're going to 309 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,200 see how this makes sense. 310 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:34,039 Speaker 2: Now. 311 00:21:34,039 --> 00:21:37,119 Speaker 1: Of course, in the Bible, God separates man and woman, 312 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,200 separates the male and the female as an image of 313 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,880 heaven and earth as an image of the continuation of 314 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,160 what God was doing in creation. And now again this 315 00:21:49,279 --> 00:21:53,079 is what you know. The man will provide seed and 316 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:57,319 the woman will provide body, and therefore heaven and earth 317 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,400 will continue. And like I said, it's really understood as 318 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,720 complementary in some ways. You both need each other. You know, 319 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:06,599 you can't. You cannot have earth without heaven, and you 320 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,599 cannot have heaven without earth. So it's seen as something 321 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,960 that is quite positive. But then there's another opposite that 322 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:17,480 appears in the story because it's all very fractal, which 323 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:20,920 is the tree of good and evil. And this is 324 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,240 where this is hopefully going to be more easy to 325 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,640 kind of understand why it is that we need we 326 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,279 need both aspects of the world. Now, I'm going to 327 00:22:32,319 --> 00:22:37,160 take my brother's translation of it, where Mateur says, you know, 328 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,720 the tree of good and bad. I really like that 329 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,079 way of talking about it. And the reason why I 330 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,839 like it is because it makes us calm. We can 331 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,480 interpret what it is that's going on in the story 332 00:22:49,519 --> 00:22:53,599 without becoming too emotional, without you know, without it immediately 333 00:22:53,599 --> 00:22:57,079 becoming a kind of moral judgment or whatever. Because the 334 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,480 question is if you think about it in terms of 335 00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:01,240 the tree of gold, good and bad. The question is 336 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,960 why did God put a tree of the knowledge of 337 00:23:06,039 --> 00:23:10,160 good and bad in the world. You know, this is 338 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,119 something that a lot of atheists or more agnostic people ask. 339 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,880 It's like, well, if evil didn't exist in the world 340 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,920 before the fall, then why is there a tree of 341 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,240 the knowledge of good and evil? You know, where does 342 00:23:21,279 --> 00:23:24,599 that come from? Where does evil come from? What is evil? 343 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:30,480 How is it that there's evil in the world. But 344 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:34,279 understanding the tree of the knowledge of good and evil 345 00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:40,200 as a fractal representation, as a lower, more particular representation 346 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,079 of the first separation, which is the separation of heaven 347 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:50,880 and earth, might help you understand that. And so when 348 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,519 you think of good and bad, you have to realize 349 00:23:54,559 --> 00:23:59,000 that good and bad is absolutely necessary for the existence 350 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:04,359 of things, just like that and not that is necessary 351 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,240 for the existence of things. So is good and bad, 352 00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:10,839 and they are in some ways a mirror of each other. 353 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,279 That is that and not that heaven and earth and 354 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,480 good and bad are related to each other. Let's see 355 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:26,960 how so everything that exists exists because it is united 356 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:33,359 around a good right. And so a pencil has a purpose. 357 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:38,240 There's a reason for the pencil to exist and its elements, 358 00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:41,160 both its elements in terms of its you know, kind 359 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,079 of structural constituents and its actual materiality. Right, the things 360 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:50,480 that it's made of is united around its purpose. Now, 361 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,559 in order for the pencil to exist, there has to 362 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,519 be bad, because bad if you remember what if you 363 00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:01,960 remember what I said at the outset is related to 364 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:08,799 not that. It's related to difference. Everything that exists is 365 00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:15,039 a not that for everything else that is. A pencil 366 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:23,079 makes a bad spoon, a pencil makes a bad rabbit. Right, 367 00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:29,319 So there's actually around this being. There is a near 368 00:25:29,559 --> 00:25:36,839 indefinite void which defines it. There is a near definite emptiness, 369 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:43,079 which is, you know, showing the limit of what the 370 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:50,240 pencil is by asking secretly does this make a good spoon? 371 00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:54,000 Does this make a good rabbit? Obviously it doesn't ask 372 00:25:54,039 --> 00:25:57,359 it explicitly, you know, because it is indefinite. There's an 373 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,240 indefinite amount of things that this is bad for and 374 00:26:02,279 --> 00:26:07,960 therefore bad. It could should be understood as the difference 375 00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:12,960 between beings. It's a buffer that exists around beings and 376 00:26:13,039 --> 00:26:16,920 between beings, and it's very necessary for that to exist. 377 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,160 And so the idea of good and bad is absolutely necessary. 378 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:25,880 For you to exist now, you know, saying it from 379 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,960 the Syrian when he talks about this, you know, when 380 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,200 he talks about the tree of the knowledge of good 381 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,000 and evil. He says that Adam and Eve were meant 382 00:26:35,079 --> 00:26:38,440 to at some point be given the fruit of the 383 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,039 knowledge of good and evil, and that it would come 384 00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:44,400 to know the knowledge of good and evil. And the 385 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,279 way he says it, he says that they would know. 386 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,079 It's as if they would know about sickness from the 387 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,839 point of view of health. Right, think about it in 388 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,000 the term that I'm saying, which is that when you're 389 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:02,079 using a pencil, you know what a bad pencil would 390 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,960 be because you know what you're trying to do with 391 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,119 a pencil. You implicitly know that if this isn't well sharpened, 392 00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:13,839 that it's that if it's too small, or that if 393 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,039 it would be made out of you know, out of jello. 394 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,400 I always use jello as an example. If it was 395 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,720 made out of jello, or out of all kinds of things, 396 00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:24,480 out of snow or out of whatever, then it would 397 00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:28,400 make a bad pencil. There's an indefinite amount of badness 398 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,039 which surrounds it. So when I'm using the pencil, when 399 00:27:31,039 --> 00:27:34,160 I'm doing something according to its purpose. I can have 400 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,759 the knowledge of good and evil from the point of 401 00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:40,559 view of the good. But the idea that san Efrem 402 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,279 shows is that because we ate of the fruit of 403 00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:45,839 the knowledge of good and evil, it's as if now 404 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,799 we know health from the point of view of sickness. 405 00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:52,920 That is, now we have this problem, which is that 406 00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:57,839 you know, I'm fine myself with a bad pencil, and 407 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,759 I know it's a bad pencil because when I try 408 00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:02,480 to use it, it doesn't work well, and there's a 409 00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:06,119 frustration in the gap where I can experience the gap 410 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,240 between the state of the world, that is the broken 411 00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:13,759 pencil or the the you know, the pencil that's not 412 00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:16,440 made from the right stuff and what I know I'm 413 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:21,240 trying to accomplish by using this pencil. So, of course, 414 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,440 you know, in the case of the fall of Adam 415 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,680 and Eve, it's not necessarily related to pencils. It's related 416 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,680 to the moral capacity of the human So in the 417 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,359 state of the fall, what happens is that I see 418 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,960 the things that I wish I was doing. I see 419 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,160 the state that I wish I had, but I feel 420 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,000 the gap between the state that I'm in and the 421 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:47,279 state that I'm trying to accomplish. And that is when 422 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:50,519 we start to experience two things. One is death and 423 00:28:50,559 --> 00:28:55,319 the other can be evil. How what is death and 424 00:28:55,359 --> 00:28:59,359 how is death related to that? Well, death is experiencing 425 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:03,640 the bad. Death is being in a state of badness. 426 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,079 It's being in a state of the gap. Right, And 427 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,440 so when I'm in that gap, I feel that things 428 00:29:12,519 --> 00:29:16,559 aren't connected to each other, that things are dissolving, that 429 00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:20,000 they're moving back to dust, as God said about us. 430 00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:22,720 But you can imagine that all of the things, your actions, 431 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,839 they are not completely united towards true purposes. You can 432 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,079 feel the distance between where you are in terms of 433 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:36,000 a kind of fragmentation in yourself and where you should 434 00:29:36,079 --> 00:29:39,480 be in terms of morality. But you can understand that 435 00:29:39,519 --> 00:29:43,640 it applies to all kind of levels of being. So 436 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,519 that is one thing that we experience. Now there's another 437 00:29:47,559 --> 00:29:50,960 aspect that we experience, which is sin. What is sin 438 00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:57,440 in this context? Sin is the attempt to twist the world, 439 00:29:58,319 --> 00:30:02,440 to pretend that bad is good, to kind of twist 440 00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:08,519 reality towards something, uh and try to hold it that 441 00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:11,720 way even though it is not what it's trying to do. 442 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,039 How how does that work? You can understand it in 443 00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:20,279 all kinds of ways, you know, which is that you know, 444 00:30:20,799 --> 00:30:23,039 addiction is a good way of understanding it, which is 445 00:30:23,079 --> 00:30:27,279 that when someone becomes an addict to a substance, what 446 00:30:27,319 --> 00:30:30,559 they're trying to do is they're trying to fill a 447 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,119 need that they have, which is a very very high need, 448 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,000 you know, maybe the need for spiritual for accomplishment, the 449 00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:40,839 need for relationship, the need to be connected with others, 450 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:43,920 to be in a relationship of love, you know, with 451 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,680 with with the people around us. And then they try 452 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,920 to take something that's not meant for that, and they 453 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,599 try to make those two things fit. And so what 454 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,960 they what they're doing is they're twisting reality, right, They're 455 00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:05,319 they're twisting the world in a mistaken belief that if 456 00:31:05,359 --> 00:31:08,759 you push the evil strong enough that it will somehow 457 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,960 accomplish what it is that you desired. And of course 458 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:17,799 that never works, you know. And so a good way 459 00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:20,880 of understanding sin and evil too is that it is 460 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,119 in some ways a declaration of not that. Now, think 461 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,359 of Adam and Eve when they fell in the garden. 462 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,880 This is exactly what happened. The first thing that they 463 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,720 did is that they tried to hide themselves. They tried 464 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,319 to emphasize them, not that. They tried to cover and 465 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,799 protect themselves from each other, protect themselves from God. And 466 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:43,680 then they started to blame each other and to blame 467 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,599 you know, to blame the serpent, to blame Eve. And 468 00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:51,680 what that does is that of course emphasizes the not that. 469 00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:56,960 It emphasizes it as my identity. And so now my identity, 470 00:31:57,039 --> 00:32:00,920 because my identity is supposed to be that which binds 471 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,240 you know, my identity is supposed to be that which 472 00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:06,319 binds me to you in love, and that which binds 473 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,680 us together in love towards God. But when I protect 474 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,400 myself and I cut myself off from others, then that 475 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,400 becomes an image of pride, and an image an image 476 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,599 of sin, and an image of not that. And so 477 00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:25,480 so much of sinning is, you could say, none that, 478 00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:30,279 trying to be that. It is in some ways difference, 479 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:38,799 trying to make itself into identity. And so think about 480 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,000 a lot of the sins that are called upon in 481 00:32:41,119 --> 00:32:45,200 the in the uh, in the the ten Commandments. So 482 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,599 lying making a false testimony, you know, I am twisting 483 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,480 reality in order to make a situation serve my purposes. 484 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,960 And I am treating others, you know, as these tools 485 00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:02,880 that I can manipulate in order to reach my goal. 486 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,960 And so I'm isolating myself from the people I like 487 00:33:06,079 --> 00:33:09,359 to because I'm misrepresenting reality, and I'm doing it for 488 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,519 a purpose of making myself stronger, making myself more protected. 489 00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:16,119 You know, think about all the other ways. Stealing obviously 490 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,160 is an easier one, you know, wanting the things from 491 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,599 your neighbor, you know, being coveting things that others people have. 492 00:33:24,279 --> 00:33:26,920 You know, this idea that in some ways you are again. 493 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,039 You know, you and I are not together, and now 494 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,799 I want to take your thing and bring it to 495 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,240 me because you have nothing to do with me, and 496 00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:41,240 I'm completely separating myself from you and treating myself as God. Ultimately, 497 00:33:41,319 --> 00:33:44,000 most of the sins are when we try to treat 498 00:33:44,039 --> 00:33:47,039 ourselves and try to act as if we are the 499 00:33:47,079 --> 00:33:50,039 fullness of unity, when of course that is that is 500 00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:54,480 not the case. And so you can really kind of 501 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:57,759 understand that the tree of the knowledge of good and 502 00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:02,680 bad is actually completely a natural aspect of reality, that 503 00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:07,720 you need this capacity to differentiate good and bad in 504 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:11,199 order to do anything. Everything you do, you're always to 505 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,559 some extent, you know, dealing with this problem. Every time 506 00:34:14,599 --> 00:34:18,960 you you know, every time you you know, you use anything, 507 00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:22,719 every time you eat a fruit, you're judging. You know, 508 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,559 the difference between a good apple and a rotten apple, 509 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,719 and so you'll read for the good apple. All of 510 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,840 this is completely necessary. And you know the difference between 511 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,800 a good an apple and a doorknob, and you know 512 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,960 that a doorknob makes a bad apple, and that is 513 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,039 completely fine. And the difference aspect of it is completely 514 00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:45,000 necessary for the world to exist. And the problem with 515 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:52,039 the difference is when difference tries to you make too 516 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:56,199 much noise, and when difference tries to call to itself 517 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,079 as a kind of as if it was being itself. 518 00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:04,440 And so this is the question we need to ask 519 00:35:04,639 --> 00:35:11,079 about some of the kind of postmodern thinking and some 520 00:35:11,119 --> 00:35:13,800 of the even some of the modern thinking. You know, 521 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,920 a good example, and this is gonna be a it's 522 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,719 gonna be a harsh one, but I think it's probably 523 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:23,480 important to to kind of understand that is the way 524 00:35:23,519 --> 00:35:25,440 in which in the modern world, as soon as the 525 00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:30,480 Enlightenment and the kind of secular mind started to develop itself, 526 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:36,039 we immediately had two deformations of the sexual union and 527 00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:38,039 of course, you know, we really have to understand that 528 00:35:38,079 --> 00:35:41,119 the sexual union is at the outset. If you think 529 00:35:41,159 --> 00:35:44,280 of the joining of heaven and earth, and in Scripture 530 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,679 and how it the entire world is resolved between, you know, 531 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,880 the the the bride, the heavenly bride and the heavenly 532 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,400 groom joining together and forming a new heaven and a 533 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,840 new Earth. You know, all of that that is manifested 534 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,599 in revelation. That it's not weird that right at the 535 00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:02,280 outset of the modern age there would be these two 536 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,719 sexual deviances. And of course one was born in Marquis 537 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,519 de Sad, which we call Sadism, and one was born 538 00:36:10,559 --> 00:36:15,159 in Sassam Mazuk, which we call Masochism. And in these 539 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,679 two tendencies, and there's a reason why a lot of 540 00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:22,719 the postmodern authors are interested in this question. That's why 541 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,840 you know, Battai or Delous or even people like Deda 542 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,760 are trying to to some incentive, trying to interpret these 543 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,320 phenomena because they understand that they're related in a deep 544 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,519 way to our modern situation, and that there is a 545 00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:45,960 a kind of desire to look at the questions of 546 00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:49,079 you like a kind of excess of one side an 547 00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:52,480 excess of power and authority and an excess of you 548 00:36:52,519 --> 00:36:56,920 could say, submission. So if you look at masochism, so 549 00:36:57,079 --> 00:36:59,519 a good example would be what is the difference between 550 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:04,320 as a kist and a martyr. You know, the martyr 551 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,440 understands that there is and Christianity in general. If you 552 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,679 look at the crucifixion, the crucifixion, In the crucifixion, there 553 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,480 is this this beautiful sense in which God is also 554 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,440 trying to kind of empty himself and is trying to 555 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,159 you know, uh, engage with the void in this loving manner. 556 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,840 And when we look at Christ die on the cross, 557 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,840 you know, experience that negativity, right, experience in some ways 558 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,280 that to be completely passive in terms of how others 559 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,719 are acting upon him and become ultimately the passivity you 560 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,280 could say, almost of the earth. Of course, he's also 561 00:37:45,639 --> 00:37:47,559 he's also becoming heavy and at the same time, the 562 00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:50,000 crucifixion is difficult to talk about, but if you look 563 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,239 at at the martyr, you know, the martyr kind of 564 00:37:53,360 --> 00:38:01,000 understands the power of the power of negative, the power 565 00:38:01,119 --> 00:38:05,199 of opening the space for transformation, of becoming in some 566 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,719 ways a victim so that the world is transformed, becoming 567 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,239 that which is acted upon in order to change the 568 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:18,159 space to ask the question, is this just? Is this right? 569 00:38:18,679 --> 00:38:22,280 See in my body, whether or not what is happening 570 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,280 now is actually a scandal, And let that interaction, let 571 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,480 me become a place on which the unjust will act, 572 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,800 become a question that will expose the sin right, that 573 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:46,199 will expose the excesses of action. Now, the martyr in theory, 574 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,480 in the Christian tradition, is not supposed to provoke his 575 00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:54,920 own martyrdom. It's not supposed to go out in order 576 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:58,719 to be martyred, but is supposed to when it happens 577 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,360 to him, to go forth and to understand this, this 578 00:39:04,119 --> 00:39:06,320 story that he's engaging in, and what he is going 579 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:06,800 to become. 580 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: Now. 581 00:39:07,519 --> 00:39:16,400 Speaker 1: The masachist is very different. The masochist finds pleasure, egotistic pleasure, 582 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,039 you could say, in suffering. When Christ is on the cross. 583 00:39:20,079 --> 00:39:22,920 He's not finding pleasure on the cross. When Christ is 584 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,000 on the cross, he is suffering and dying. When the 585 00:39:26,039 --> 00:39:30,239 martyr is suffering and dying, it is not the pain, 586 00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:34,039 It is not the pain that is giving that person 587 00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:40,719 a kind of bodily perverse pleasure, but is rather, you know, 588 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,960 the capacity to imitate Christ and to see God's glory 589 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,719 come down, you know, and liberate them, free them from 590 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,440 the from the torture. So you can see in the difference, 591 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,440 you can see masochism as a kind of perversion of 592 00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:04,639 the tie of negativity that the Christian cosmology understands, right, 593 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:12,440 the kind of questions that Christianity is asking. And of course, 594 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,400 ultimately this relates to the Mother of God. And this 595 00:40:18,519 --> 00:40:21,840 is again these things are hard to talk about, but 596 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,559 I think it's probably important to talk about it. There's 597 00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:29,679 of course the deep analogy between the Mother of God, 598 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,480 between Mary and the earth. You know. The word Mary 599 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,960 seems to derive from the term bitter, which is related 600 00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:42,960 to the bitter waters, you know, which is related to 601 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,760 this idea of a kind of pure earth. And this 602 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,679 is of course the same with virginity, you know. Female 603 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:57,280 virginity is also a form of negativity that sounds weird 604 00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,920 when I say it. Negativity in the sense that it 605 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,639 is a pure space, right, It is an undefined It 606 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:09,559 is a kind of question that is unanswered. Right, it 607 00:41:09,639 --> 00:41:12,239 is a living prayer, if you want to think about 608 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,599 it that way, which is why there is of course 609 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:18,599 air relationship between the Mother of God and this opening 610 00:41:18,679 --> 00:41:21,599 up right, and this prayer, you know, and the chalice 611 00:41:21,639 --> 00:41:26,119 as this opening up towards Heaven and the purity of 612 00:41:26,679 --> 00:41:34,400 the untouched negativity, you could say. And that is also 613 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,639 one of the reasons why we always say, for example, 614 00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:40,840 that the Virgin is a secret of the church. You know, 615 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:45,920 the void is something which has to remain a secret. 616 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,239 It has to remain a secret because when it starts 617 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:56,800 to speak on its own, it is necessarily sinful, because 618 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:02,199 that is not its nature. The nature of the earth 619 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:08,239 and the nature of negativity is to be secret is 620 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,360 to be a sigh, you know, is to be a 621 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:19,519 you know, it is to be a yearning, right, a 622 00:42:19,679 --> 00:42:24,440 kind of a secret yearning is maybe even that's the 623 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,320 best way of understanding in its depth. And so it 624 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,199 is very important, like I said, in the in the 625 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,519 structure of the story. But you can see understand why 626 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,280 why it is that the story looks the way it does, 627 00:42:43,639 --> 00:42:47,440 you know, why is it that Eve is the one 628 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,000 that eats the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? 629 00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:56,800 From the point of view you could say of a 630 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:02,679 kind of revolution of earth where the earth or difference 631 00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:09,320 or not that tries to take that for itself and 632 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,719 what that does. And it's also understandable why the Mother 633 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:20,519 of God then restores that by becoming the pure virgin 634 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:28,440 and being a mother without without being defined, being a 635 00:43:28,519 --> 00:43:32,920 mother without being defined by any kind of particularity. So 636 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,199 these are very deep symbols. It's hard to you can't 637 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,480 completely come to the end of them, and that please 638 00:43:38,519 --> 00:43:44,079 forgive me, because I'm just turning around this mystery hopefully 639 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,400 enough that you will be able to kind of grasp 640 00:43:46,519 --> 00:43:48,960 some of it and have a sense of some of it. 641 00:43:51,119 --> 00:43:53,960 But it's important to understand that, you know, since World 642 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,199 War Two especially, there has been a kind of obsession 643 00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:02,880 with not that that there has been an obsession with 644 00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:07,239 understanding God as alterity for example. You know, you see 645 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,280 that in Emmanuel Livinas, and you see that in other 646 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,280 contemporary philosophers, where they want to understand God as the 647 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:20,679 Holy Other. You probably heard that term before. And in 648 00:44:20,679 --> 00:44:24,280 some ways you could say that this is a reaction. 649 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:30,519 You know, it is in some ways a in some 650 00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:34,320 ways a kind of reaction to a kind of Hegelian synthesis, 651 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,360 where a reaction to this idea that that we can 652 00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:41,440 bring the escaton, that we can bring you know, the 653 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:46,159 fullness of everything into the world, through through the state, 654 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,679 through you know, a kind of through progress or whatever 655 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,679 way of understanding it. It's kind of understanding. And that 656 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,880 had that led to to the war, to the access 657 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,559 into all of these all of these ways of thinking, 658 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,320 it is almost it is very normal that after that 659 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,119 there would be a kind of reaction to emphasize, you 660 00:45:08,119 --> 00:45:13,400 could say, the negativity and to emphasize difference, and to 661 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:19,199 emphasize not that. But of course that is not how 662 00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:23,599 it functions. Right. The world is a dance. The world 663 00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:26,119 is a dance between that and not that. The world 664 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:30,840 is a dance between identity and difference, and we have 665 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:37,599 to maintain that dance. You know, in the past generations, 666 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,840 since World War Two, we have gone so far in 667 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:47,199 emphasizing the not that and difference and strangeness. You know 668 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,320 that the world is becoming very fragile, and things are 669 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,519 returning to dust, and there is a kind of chaos 670 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:01,320 of uncertainty and the chaos of lack of direction, and 671 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:05,159 a chaos of lack of unity, which will ultimately lead 672 00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,840 to a reaction of Heaven, not of God necessarily, but 673 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,360 just a natural reaction of that, right, a natural reaction 674 00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:17,920 of identity, and so hopefully you can see that we 675 00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:23,119 have to be able to regain the dance. And you know, 676 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,559 I really hope that all of you can see that 677 00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:30,360 I'm that I myself am trying to do that. That 678 00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:33,480 there's a reason why I wrote a story about Saint Christopher, 679 00:46:33,639 --> 00:46:37,920 the dog headed monster Saint. There's a reason also why 680 00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:40,800 I am, you know, a Christian who goes to church 681 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:44,639 and participates in those types of identities. Is that I 682 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,559 want to help people find the nice swing, like the 683 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,119 gentle swing, not the radical one, you know, and a 684 00:46:52,159 --> 00:46:57,760 gentle swing, which is actually a form of courting, you know, 685 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,840 a courting that between heaven and earth, between our different 686 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,800 identities and their variation. And you know, and I say 687 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:11,719 this recently, I put out a video that interpreted the 688 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:16,400 parable of the banquet, and of course, you know, it's 689 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:21,239 not surprising that immediately after that certain people call me, 690 00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:25,000 well in say it straight out, but you know, hinted 691 00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:27,519 that I might be some kind of a fascist or 692 00:47:27,559 --> 00:47:30,639 some kind of a you know, supremacist, or some kind 693 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:35,280 of an identitarian. And you know the answer is I 694 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,400 want to dance, you know, I want to dance, and 695 00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,239 I want the dance to happen at the family level, 696 00:47:40,559 --> 00:47:43,000 you know, at the national level, at your tribal level, 697 00:47:43,119 --> 00:47:45,880 at the church level. I want to see that dance 698 00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,840 where there is an understanding of who we are and 699 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:53,639 there's an understanding of difference and we can participate in 700 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,719 how those two come together and create the beautiful world 701 00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,519 that we live in. And we must not forget that 702 00:48:01,599 --> 00:48:04,079 it is that it is a beautiful world, even though 703 00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,920 sometimes it feels like everything is going crazy and falling apart. 704 00:48:08,639 --> 00:48:11,599 So this is a little just a little video to 705 00:48:12,199 --> 00:48:15,199 help you think about the negative aspect of the world 706 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,599 and the not that aspect of the war world and 707 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:23,760 understand that. Also understand that every time that you die, 708 00:48:24,639 --> 00:48:27,320 every time that you sin, and every time that you 709 00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,559 kind of fall into death, it is always a question, 710 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,079 you know, and you know Saint Paul says that you know, 711 00:48:34,119 --> 00:48:37,320 sin is not that the law brings about sin. Sin 712 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,239 is not good. But when you do sin and you 713 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,559 kind of fall into a little moment of death and 714 00:48:42,599 --> 00:48:44,559 you kind of experience a little bit of not that, 715 00:48:46,159 --> 00:48:49,880 it is an opportunity to ask the question, and it 716 00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,719 is an opportunity to see the gap between where you 717 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,960 are and where you can go and it can become 718 00:48:56,119 --> 00:49:01,280 a springboard for transformation. So this is of course why 719 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,400 Christianity understands the need for not not necessarily sin, but 720 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,559 in general of pain and of suffering, that that we 721 00:49:08,639 --> 00:49:11,800 in some ways have to experience suffering to some extent, 722 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,079 because it reminds us that, you know, we're looking towards 723 00:49:17,119 --> 00:49:19,679 in a direction, and it reminds us of the gap 724 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:22,000 between where we are and when we're where we hope 725 00:49:22,039 --> 00:49:25,800 it should be, and we should when it happens to us, 726 00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,199 whether it's through our own sins where we fall and 727 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,760 we have to repent, or whether it's true through the 728 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,079 natural evils, the natural bads that happen to us, you know, 729 00:49:34,119 --> 00:49:37,239 a tree falling on your house, or or a sickness 730 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,840 that you get that in some ways that this is 731 00:49:42,159 --> 00:49:44,559 this is this is part of reality, and it is 732 00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:52,559 can become a kind of question. And ultimately, this is 733 00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:55,559 the more secret or difficult part, is that is that 734 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,000 all of that can be kind of transformed into a 735 00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:03,280 kind of glory. You know, you have to remember that 736 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,760 although in the Bible it says that the man is 737 00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,360 the head of the household in Proverbs, it's also says 738 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,880 that woman is the crown of her husband and is 739 00:50:14,519 --> 00:50:19,639 his glory. And therefore there is an aspect of the 740 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,760 negativity or the negative, or the space or the opening 741 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,639 that is also one which is above us, and that 742 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:32,519 is represented of course in the apothetic tradition. And then 743 00:50:32,599 --> 00:50:37,519 the idea that God is always not that you know. 744 00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:44,760 So hopefully these small meditations will help you, and please 745 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,639 take them all as analogies, as circles going around a 746 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,719 very very difficult subject and one which we probably shouldn't 747 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,760 be talking about, but that I find myself pulled into 748 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,760 talking about more and more. So thanks everybody, I for 749 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,719 you'reens If you enjoy what we're doing, don't forget. You 750 00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:04,719 can go to the Symbolic world dot com. You can 751 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,960 sign up, you can participate in our little community there. 752 00:51:08,679 --> 00:51:10,880 You can even support us financially if that's something you're 753 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:14,280 interested in and you know we're just doing what we 754 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,159 can do. So thanks everyone, and I'll talk to you 755 00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:19,880 very soon. Bye bye. If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, 756 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,639 please go to the Symbolic world dot com website and 757 00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,079 see how you can support what we're doing. There are 758 00:51:25,159 --> 00:51:28,519 multiple subscriber tiers with perks. There are apparel and books 759 00:51:28,519 --> 00:51:31,119 to purchase. So go to the Symbolic World dot com 760 00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:32,760 and thank you for your support.