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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekingona Show

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and returning and it's a quick return. Hey Wendyle, how

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are you doing.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm doing good. Glad to be back. Pete, thanks

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for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for coming back on. Uh, this is

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the one I'm really looking forward to. Started looking into

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Friedrich List about a year ago, but I haven't really

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had a chance to go too deep. And I know

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that the first time that we ever talked, you seem

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to have and a really good working knowledge of the

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work and the life of Friedrich Lists. So let me

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just let's just jump right in. I'll we'll start with this.

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Friedrich List was German. He was an economist. How would

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you describe his theory of the economy?

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Speaker 2: Well, List is a really interesting early example of you know,

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while in German, he was also American citizen and really

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his work stemmed from his time here in America and

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his perhaps founding contributions to the so called American school

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of economics. So I guess just to give the background

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on List, and the biography of List is remarkable and

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really quite telling as to the founding differences between the

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orthodox economists of the time and this emerging generation of

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protectionists or you know, nationally oriented economists who had a

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lot of skin in the game, right. These weren't economists

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hunched over in the ivory tower with a candle and

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the quill pen coming up with theoretical figures about the

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price of corn in Austria or something like that. List

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was very energetic, and you know, he had his humble

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origins as a professor of economics during the end of

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the Continental system. At the time, Germany had been conquered

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by Napoleon and was being released in the mid eighteen hundreds,

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and this was coterminous with the United States war against

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England as well. That's who Napoleon was, you know, his

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chief antagonist was England. And List, like the American system

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thinkers or American School thinkers who he would encounter in

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the next decade, began to kind of envisage a maintenance of,

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in his case, Napoleon's Continental system embargoing against British trade,

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and had these ideas of maintaining napoleon system, which while

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had been meant to embargo British trade with the continent

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of Europe controlled by Napoleon, it had created a system

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of manufacturers on the European continent itself, being bereft of

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trade with the world's workshop England at the time. And so,

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you know, initially as a professor of economics, he was

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concerned with at the time that you know, Napoleonic forces

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withdrew from continental Europe, that he would try and usher

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in a domestic economic framework which would later be called

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the Zolverine. About twenty five years later his dream came

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true and what is now Germany and what was then

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a bunch of mediatized palatinates. Napoleon had drastically reduced the

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number of principalities within German Germany itself, and so they

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all had different customs in terms of internal trade, they

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all had different costs of doing trade with one another,

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different essentially internal taxes. And so Liszt was advocating for

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a system of free trade in a domestic market, only

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envisaging that this would buy in together the German people

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and their industries and prevent what was beginning to turn

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up at the time, this wave of British manufactured goods

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from wiping out all the progress they had made in

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creating a productive economy for themselves. Of course, under the

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dual issue of being conquered by Napoleon and the embargo

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he had emplaced on continental Europe against British goods as

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his chief weapon against British trade power. So that's kind

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of the start of list. And at the same time,

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across the Atlantic you have thinkers like Matthew Carey also

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rediscovering founding ideas of American economy that had been put

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to rest to the point that it weakened America to

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be reinvaded by the British during I guess that theater

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of war. Britain, of course at war across the entire

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Atlantic in the mid eighteen hundred, I guess the eighteen

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teens kind of an awkward way of saying it, And

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the same thing was happening after the Treaty of Ghent.

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America hadn't just been under an embargo and reinvaded by

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the Brits during the course of the War of eighteen twelve.

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In the run up to the involvement in the war,

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they had a series of embargos before we were at

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war with Britain as well. We nearly went to war

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with both Britain and France during that time, and so

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the United States was cutting itself off as a country

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with no industry, very small native industry that had not

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grown yet in the wake of independence, cutting itself off

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from the two major global manufacturers, and found itself in

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a similar position being cut off from trade with Britain

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and to a lesser extent, France. Meant that the United

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States enjoyed this unforeseen increase in agricultural production, land price lowered. Obviously,

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they had to substitute for manufactured goods, substitute for the

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import of these by domestic manufacturer. The Treaty of Ghent

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kicks in again. The wave of British exports rolls in,

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and this is a kind of favored method of the

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British Empire at the time, and still a favored method

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of major manufacturing countries today. Incomes the wave of imported goods,

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gradually destroying all this new American production. So I guess

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that's probably the best place to start with List is

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as a professor, he becomes interested in governance, and this

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is the same unifying aspect of many protectionists. Unlike academic

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theorist economists, they are primarily drawn into ideas of econometrics

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political economy establishing facts rather than theory what you call

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inductivism versus deductivism by the need to try and engage

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in good governance if no one else will. Becomes a

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bit of a rabble rouser. Not only is he advocating

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for a customs union between dozens, at that point of essentially,

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you know what are analogous to the modern German states saying,

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dissolve your tariffs, you know, create a common domestic market,

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an internal free market. He's observing what the source of

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England's global economic power is the protection of their home industries.

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Essentially free trade within England, proper but aggressive protection of

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its ability to import raw goods from the entire world,

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which it keeps from manufacturing anything by dumping. Then the

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value added exported goods on them at prices low enough

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to keep them from ever having to manufacture anything on

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their own. So List is advocating for this domestic customs union,

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and he gets into trouble, you know, as one does

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when they begin to I guess, with a mind geared

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toward efficiency improvement, enter the halls of government, issues dozens

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of new rules that he would like to see the

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Parliament abide by. It ends up getting him I think

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convicted something like a two year sentence, and he goes

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on the lamb and this becomes a theme throughout List's

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life for the next something like near thirty years until

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he dies. He's just in constant motion between Europe and

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the United States, and he becomes, you know, he attempts

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to become a farmer. At some points, he becomes one

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of the earliest railroad men in the United States, and

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in Germany he's a coal miner. He does all of

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these things. So you know, there's a great modern biography

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of Lists by Jugen Vendler that's W E N D

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L E R. And if anyone's interested, I'm kind of

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front running the Wildlife of Friedrich List because it in

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and of itself would would take hours to relate. So,

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you know, needless to say, he was very active. He

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wasn't just someone who laid down a founding theory of

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protectionist economy or economics. He was very transatlantic, and he's

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almost like the Forest Gump of early nineteenth century political economy.

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So I guess I'll start there, you know, and this

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is eventually how he ends up in the United States.

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But I'll come up for air here and let you.

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Speaker 1: Respond well, I think when anyone who knows anything about him,

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even a very vague understanding of his economics, tariffs on

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imported goods are what anyone who might know who he

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is will talk about. Can you can you defend the terroriffs?

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Defend tariffs from a List's standpoint.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, List, I guess at the root of it, most

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important concept of List in terms of wealth was that

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wealth is a matter of national productivity and not the

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hoarded material wealth of individuals within the state itself. It's

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what a nation can produce. So I think there are

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obvious ties to someone who wanted to create a unified

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Germans German customs Union to bring the people the kind

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of disparate German people together. List is still seen as

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a founding father of federal Germany. List, you know, was

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held in the greatest esteem by founders of modern Germany

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in its various phases like Bismarck, and was a I guess,

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a prominent fixture of the economic theories of nineteen thirties Germany,

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which itself was extremely nationalist. So you know, that's something

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that he would go on to share with his American

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counterparts and probably pick up in America. He before coming

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to America only had this kind of concept of a

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domestic free trade union. But in the United States itself

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he enters into the tariff debate. Comes to the United

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States in I think eighteen twenty six as a guest

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of Lafayette, the great French revolutionary, and Lafayette has met

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List and his bizarre itinerant flight from justice in Europe

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and invited him to the United States, where Lists immediately

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is met with the I believe it's Richard Rush, who

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was leaving his position as consul to England and was

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Secretary of the Treasury. So due to Lafayette's stature, this

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is the fiftieth anniversary of Lafayette's heroism in the War

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of Independence. They say at times List in Lafayette are

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traveling in carriages surrounded by as many as two thousand

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men in per aids. He's meeting with all the heads

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of state of the United States. He's you know, becomes

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known to all the presidents. But he's dropped then into

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this emerging tariff debate that within a year will be

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known as the Tariff of Abominations. And so the United

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States is split along sectional lines of basically, you know,

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in the South, they preferred to continue the status quo

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trade arrangements with England where they would provide raw goods

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to England and England would provide industry. And in the

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North there's a much more anglophobic sentiment and independence segment

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sentiment of creating your own goods and limiting England's continued

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engagement and interaction with American commerce and governance. And so,

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you know, list understands in this circle in Pennsylvania headed

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by Matthew Carey, known as the Pennsylvania School of Protectionists,

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that to ensure national sovereignty and strength, you have to

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build up the so called infant industries. So in the

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case that you don't have the ability to produce finished

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goods out of resources yourself, you have to somehow create that.

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And while the tariff enforces that, and the tariff has

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to be set high enough to reduce, you know, the

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ability of a state with massive subsidies to insert their

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products no matter essentially what your tariff is, and terriffs

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can essentially become bands at some point, right you're levying

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increased taxes on the value of imported goods that sometimes

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can increase over the value of the finished good itself

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in the first place. Like right now, President Biden has

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one hundred percent tariff on incoming Chinese electric vehicles, which

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is clearly meant to prevent Chinese electric vehicles from entering

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in the United States and potentially wiping out, you know,

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a key component of American manufacturing. So this is basic protectionism.

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You have to protect your infant industries. You have to

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get to the point that you have national industry so

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you can join the world of advanced economies. And in

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list time he says, there's just one. It's England. He

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has the you know, And this is probably his most

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important contribution to the corpus of protectionist ideas is he

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is the first to codify protectionism. So while dealing with

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the Pennsylvania schoolers, although not caucusing with them politically, he

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asides with their opponents, the Democrats, you know, to the

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point that his friendship with Andrew Jackson and Martin van

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Buren results in their appointment of him as their consul

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to Germany, which is an entirely different saga and comedy

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of errors and lists unfortunate life in Europe, I guess

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in his final decade, but you know, it's this concept

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that bringing people together who have not learned to think continentally.

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The United States is thirteen relatively disparate states at that point.

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There's an early admonition in seventeen ninety one through Hamilton,

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First Secretary of the Treasuries report on Manufacturers, that you

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have to engage in a series of behaviors to draw

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people together. You know, he says, you have to learn

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how to think continentally. We're no longer at thirteen confederated states.

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We are now a single union of states. And Liszt

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is attempting to solve the same problem with these German palatinates.

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But of course now he's living in the US, and

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he becomes kind of a representative of German Americans and

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kind of contributes materially to delivering their block vote to

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the Democratic Party. So, you know, this idea that there

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are phases through which any society or civilization has to

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pass to become a world leading economy kind of provides

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a roadmap for later on and after List's life. He

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only really spreads these ideas to France and back to

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Germany in his own lifetime, but List becomes the kind

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of founding father of many nationalist economic movements deep into

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the twentieth century, and you're still seeing his imprint now,

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particularly in China. So you know the necessity of moving

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out of being just simply an agrarian state. This is

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the first phase where you can only engage in farming.

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Your human capital is essentially manual labor. That's all people

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can do. You don't have institutions, you don't have means

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of elevating human capital like university systems. You don't have infrastructure,

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and you don't have anything to do with that stuff anyway.

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You don't have a means of exporting anything other than

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raw materials that's exported for you by foreigners, and you

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have to go through that phase of subjecting yourself to

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exporting your natural resources to be returned to you as

245
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finished goods is the kind of first stage of ennoblement.

246
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And while England's the only country capable of doing that

247
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in the time of lists writing, he says, you have

248
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to go through this period because you can gradually indigenize

249
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the things that they are bringing back to you. He

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mentions that, you know, the United States used to just

251
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send England wol and receive back Linen's you know, or

252
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receive back like completed textile goods, and then the United

253
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States became such a textile power that it threatened England's

254
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ability to produce these things. And you know, he doesn't

255
00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:58,880
really give mention to it, but he was familiar with

256
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the work of Hamilton's concept of bounties, which today you

257
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would hear called intellectual property theft. So that's kind of

258
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the first step. You are examining and kind of reverse

259
00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:15,319
engineering in some way and creating an internal demand to

260
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replicate goods that you are importing. You're trying to substitute

261
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those imports. And then you move to the second phase,

262
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which is a combination of agrarian society, farming, exporting raw

263
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materials still but beginning to in ways where it makes

264
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the most sense enable the production of finished goods from

265
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resources that you control. And eventually, in the final phase,

266
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you move into being a commerce oriented state. You're doing

267
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all the other processes. You're providing your own food, you

268
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are creating not only just finished goods out of your

269
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own resources for your domestic market, but you're even importing

270
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other nations raw materials who are below you. Right, they're

271
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still in that first phase, in the agrarian phase, and

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you are producing those for export, has finished goods with

273
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extremely high added value, and you are now engaging in

274
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primarily commerce. And list believed eventually with the exception of

275
00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:20,759
the tropical states, which you know, leads to claims of

276
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racism and imperialism from kind of recent revisionists from a

277
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free trade pro liberationist perspective, like Mark William Palin that

278
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:40,039
every nation, once it's achieved this final state, this third phase,

279
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,759
then free trade is possible at an international level, and

280
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not just within domestic markets or between master producer nations

281
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and nations learning how to escape the agrarian muck. So

282
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to him, at tariff is a kind of step, it's

283
00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,640
an intermediary step. Obviously, we haven't a gaped the national

284
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utility of tariffs on a global level at this point,

285
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so he didn't put a timer on it. He didn't say,

286
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you know, by twenty three hundred, the needs for tariffs

287
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and protection will no longer be in place. But I

288
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,039
guess one of the detractions from a list from an

289
00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:21,720
American perspective is, you know, he's distinctly liberal, he's not

290
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particularly nationalistic. He took pains to kind of delineate between

291
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having excessive national pride or you know what the appropriate

292
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level of national pride was versus exceptionalism. And while a

293
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,480
very early thinker and the first to codify again, the

294
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first to codify the Pennsylvania school of protectionism that he

295
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found himself in, you know, he was roundly denigrated by

296
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the follow on scholars who were his contemporaries, like Matthew

297
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,279
Carey's son, Henry Carey in particular Erasmus Peshine Smith, the

298
00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,480
contemporary of Carrey's who was a particularly advanced protection thinker.

299
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,839
And the irony was, you know, in the United States,

300
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,680
our academic institutions were always kind of hewing towards the

301
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:16,880
status quo of British free trade, British concepts of economics,

302
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,960
and so it's Lists ideas that actually take root in

303
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,400
the academy. And that's in Germany, and this is where

304
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,599
Americans have to go and learn about political economy from

305
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,480
a Listian perspective, you know, in the eighteen seventies, and

306
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,119
bring it back to the United States during a period

307
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where the Democratic parties on the rise again after the

308
00:21:35,839 --> 00:21:40,839
Civil War, and there's an entirely new form of progressive

309
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,440
free trade led by the Cobdenists that's creeping in a

310
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,319
transatlantic sense that it's still Cobdenism is kind of still

311
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:56,000
what we'd associate with liberal internationalist free trade. So yeah,

312
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,359
I don't know. That's a pretty convoluted answer about the

313
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,519
necessity of terrorists. But essentially, to join the world of

314
00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:05,519
powerful nations to secure your own national sovereignty, you can't

315
00:22:05,559 --> 00:22:10,480
rely on the import of goods and services that that

316
00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:13,039
more powerful nation will hold over you. All Right, we'll

317
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:15,640
hold as a cudgel against you to compel you to

318
00:22:15,759 --> 00:22:18,400
engage in behavior that they find convenient.

319
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,079
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask this. You just basically went through

320
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:29,200
his stages of economic development. It was something that he

321
00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:31,240
was also a big proponent of, and you talked to

322
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,680
you mentioned it very very briefly as railroads. Can you

323
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:40,839
talk about how what his vision for the railroads were

324
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,440
when it came to the nation and the economy.

325
00:22:44,599 --> 00:22:48,839
Speaker 2: Mobility was key in uh List's theory of kind of

326
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:55,319
economic change and nobleman and that economies of time and space,

327
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,480
as he called them, meant a lot more than just

328
00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:01,799
the transfer of goods, but also the transfer of people.

329
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,079
I talked about human capital, the cultural improvements that Lists

330
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,799
saw as the domain of you know, you know, I

331
00:23:09,839 --> 00:23:12,319
guess neglected to mention that the tariff, of course provides

332
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,240
income for government. So through the application of these moneies

333
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:23,640
collected essentially from foreign governments or foreign you know, mercantilists

334
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,759
that want access to your domestic market for a high

335
00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:29,079
enough price, you're taking that money and you're investing it

336
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,160
into the development of human capital, so the training and

337
00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:39,319
education of the populace. You're also creating infrastructure what was

338
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:44,240
known as internal improvements, so you're building out, basically the

339
00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:52,000
arteries of national economy. The primary importance of the free

340
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,720
trade within protectionism is purely domestic, so you have to

341
00:23:55,759 --> 00:23:59,640
find a way of connecting your disparate palatinates in Germany

342
00:23:59,759 --> 00:24:04,640
and your American states. You guys are probably familiar with,

343
00:24:05,039 --> 00:24:06,920
you know, if you've taken a road trip, all the

344
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,039
different industries and resources that are found in the United States, Well,

345
00:24:10,039 --> 00:24:12,200
they have to be connected somehow, and early on those

346
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,799
were canals and railroads. So list becomes the first, I believe,

347
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:22,079
one of the earliest, if not the first, railroad, you know,

348
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,480
visionaries in the United States. It takes some time, I

349
00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:27,200
believe eighteen thirty three until he can get a locomotive going.

350
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,920
But it's not just the movement of goods. Protectionists also

351
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:38,119
think of humans as capital. Capital beyond the Adam Smith,

352
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,000
Malthus and Daniel Ricardo concept of something you can exchange

353
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,920
for goods and services, whether it's gold or you know,

354
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,799
other resources. People are also a resource. Wealth is also

355
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:56,119
held you know, from familiar with the night soilers or

356
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,839
the work of justice libig like within the soil the earth.

357
00:25:01,079 --> 00:25:05,440
So you're not just transferring goods. You can move people around.

358
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,279
You know, you can move them quickly across vast distances.

359
00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:13,559
And a key component of the Pennsylvania school in which

360
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:20,200
List found himself in Sconsin was the kind of abolition

361
00:25:20,279 --> 00:25:23,839
of class warfare what Henry Carey, his contemporary son of

362
00:25:23,839 --> 00:25:27,720
Matthew Carey, would call the harmony of interests. You know

363
00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:29,920
that you can have a harmony of interest between labor

364
00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:32,920
and capital. You can have a harmony of interest between

365
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,519
the rural farmer and the urban industrialist. But they have

366
00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:41,920
to be connected together through a system of internal infrastructure,

367
00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:46,279
and they have to have equal access to cultural improvements. Again,

368
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,799
like land grant universities beginning to supplant the Ivy leagues,

369
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,880
which as I mentioned had always remained kind of loyalist

370
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,759
in a certain sense. Michael Hudson has some interesting examples

371
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:04,279
of that throughout his book America's Protections takeoff about the

372
00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:10,960
difficulties that American nationalists had in clawing back the Academy,

373
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,160
and they always failed. And that's probably no surprise to

374
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,480
the audience when you look at the elite American Academy. Now,

375
00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:19,960
they were always a status quo academy and they never

376
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,200
really had anything to do with a national project here

377
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:29,519
in the United States. So, you know, interconnecting people, interconnecting

378
00:26:29,559 --> 00:26:35,400
their goods. Hudson gives examples of the reduction of feed

379
00:26:35,519 --> 00:26:38,559
costs in the Hudson Valley for milk cows. Once you

380
00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:43,279
could build erie canal, you can move goods and services

381
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:47,039
that otherwise don't have a comparative advantage because they can't

382
00:26:47,039 --> 00:26:50,319
reach each other. Now you can move those, you know,

383
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:56,079
and interconnect your domestic your domestic free trade economy. But

384
00:26:56,319 --> 00:27:01,599
also there were security imperatives in Europe, the rails, you know,

385
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,519
this was part of the kind of European orientation that

386
00:27:05,599 --> 00:27:07,759
List had toward a lot of his ideas was you

387
00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:10,720
need to be able to move troops around rapidly, and

388
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,880
the Napoleonic Wars it certainly taught them the value of that.

389
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,920
So you know, I guess that's kind of the rail

390
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,720
thing in a nutshell. But also it represented this massive

391
00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:23,920
expansion of technology that was underway, coal and steam power,

392
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,920
and you know, it represented fundamentally the massive leverage of

393
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,839
a human worker through technology. So you know, it's about continuing.

394
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,519
It's been called by Hudson technological optimism. Some of your

395
00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:44,240
audience and you yourself, Pete, may have seen that be

396
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,759
kind of clumsily wetted to Riccardian economic ideology by the

397
00:27:48,799 --> 00:27:52,839
venture capitalist Marc Andrees and a recent manifesto which I

398
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,440
find quite curious given that its origins are in critiques

399
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:04,680
of Ricardian economics, but the fact that technology can radically

400
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,279
alter a state's position against other states. But everything is

401
00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:13,440
part of this broader whole. It's you know, it's not

402
00:28:13,759 --> 00:28:17,839
just about building infrastructure, it's not just about building cultural institutions.

403
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,000
It's not just about protecting the people and the resources

404
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,480
from foreign predation. It's a broader system of human being.

405
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:34,079
And later thinkers within protectionism who followed list quite shortly,

406
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:38,839
like Erasmus P. Schein Smith, Henry Carey, Simon Patten. They

407
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,920
begin to just associate it with compt concept of sociology,

408
00:28:43,319 --> 00:28:46,839
that this is just part of the human experience, This

409
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,720
is part of man and nature, and it's not actually economics.

410
00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:55,480
So you know, I think the quote from a List

411
00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:59,279
about the real is like the world is in motion, right,

412
00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:02,599
the world's in So he was. He was very much

413
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,279
a mover as well. As I mentioned his travels and

414
00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:08,759
kind of constant itinerants across the world.

415
00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:18,359
Speaker 1: It said that he inspired Kings, John maynerd Kings. How

416
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,640
do you think he inspired Kenes when he he wasn't

417
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:24,279
a communist?

418
00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the Keynesian aspect is probably that you know,

419
00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:36,319
Knes believed in subsidies, and you know, you even see

420
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:40,240
this within protectionism itself. It's a massive spectrum of ideas

421
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,200
where List represents a kind of more liberal position. List,

422
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:50,119
for example, wouldn't protect agrarian output. Figures like Kerry believed

423
00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:54,640
you had to protect everything. Figures like Simon Patton had

424
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,720
theories of regulatory control and kind of behavior adjustment for

425
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,279
literally everything. Right, we can change the tastes of people

426
00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:07,759
if they want to continue eating important food, right, We'll

427
00:30:07,759 --> 00:30:10,519
figure out how to substitute where to grow a banana

428
00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:13,279
in the United States instead of bring bananas in from

429
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:17,440
a foreign country. You know, it's so there's this vast spectrum,

430
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,400
but you know it's there is obvious overlap with other

431
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:26,599
forms of economic ideas. And what's the infamous line about

432
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,839
canes right? Bury about subsidies? Right, just bury jars of

433
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,599
money and the most capable will dig them up. So,

434
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,279
I you know, if that's the alignment, I guess I

435
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:40,480
would reject that. In that the protectionist concept of subsidies

436
00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,720
you usually gets derided as cronyism, but at the same time,

437
00:30:46,279 --> 00:30:49,400
it's an acknowledgment of inequalities that you say you had

438
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,839
one hundred million dollars in teriff revenue to give out.

439
00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:53,480
If you gave it to a million people one hundred

440
00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:55,839
dollars each, nothing happens. But if you give it to

441
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,160
a guy who's champion at the bit set up the

442
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,079
first railway and the United States and he knows how

443
00:31:01,119 --> 00:31:03,359
to do it, you may get a rail man at

444
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,599
the deal. You know, whether or not that's cronyism is

445
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,039
usually a kind of point of political debate. But yeah,

446
00:31:11,039 --> 00:31:13,559
I don't know. I don't see a lot of crossover

447
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:19,759
other than vague, like you know that there's a kind

448
00:31:19,839 --> 00:31:25,119
of private and public responsibility that both Kanesians and protectionists

449
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,599
delineate in the economy. But yeah, I don't know. I

450
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,680
don't really see a ton of crossover with the Kynesians

451
00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:36,839
other than, like I said, kind of government directed finance

452
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,279
and industry to a degree. But you know, when you

453
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:43,359
read about List, there are some thinkers who will bring

454
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,440
up like the Juchey regime in North Korea. They'll bring

455
00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:49,839
up Autarctic regimes and say, well, hey, you know they're

456
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,720
marshaling their native resources and engaging in value add manufacturing

457
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,160
in their own country. Maybe they got that from List.

458
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:57,519
And it's a bit of a stretch.

459
00:31:58,839 --> 00:32:01,759
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about what you already mentioned that

460
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,680
a little bit him getting in trouble with the law.

461
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:11,039
What was what exactly was he doing to piss off

462
00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:12,119
the people in charge?

463
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,759
Speaker 2: Well, you know, if you I believe it was forty

464
00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:23,519
two prescriptions for changing kind of the parliamentary rules within Wurtenberg,

465
00:32:23,559 --> 00:32:27,839
where he was from. And also, like I mentioned, just

466
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,559
drawing together all of these disparate states in a common

467
00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:36,519
customs union. This is a time where the aristocracy is

468
00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:41,640
trying to re establish itself with some form of Germanic

469
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,359
independence after you know, at that point fifteen years of

470
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:53,960
Napoleonic rule, so that was unpopular. Ironically, it's an idea

471
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,799
before its time. He's forced to flee in the late

472
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:02,519
eighteen teens, in returns in the eighteen thirties, and even

473
00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:06,279
the King of Wurtemberg welcomes him back. It feels bad.

474
00:33:06,559 --> 00:33:09,240
He feels bad that List was treated the way he was.

475
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,799
So I think it's important to note that when you

476
00:33:14,319 --> 00:33:16,640
in this time that he is away, America becomes an

477
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:22,279
economic superpower, and List is really the first major codifier

478
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,920
of these new ideas at the behest of Ingersoll, who

479
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:32,279
runs the Pennsylvania Society, and America goes from in eighteen

480
00:33:32,319 --> 00:33:35,039
twenty seven when he writes that to having a handful

481
00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:40,119
of native industries to by the eighteen forties, it's a

482
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:45,960
serious global competitor in areas like textiles. Iron it has

483
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,000
a functioning railway system. The canal systems have been built out.

484
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:53,160
It is kind of the talk of the world. The economy,

485
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,960
the doctrine of high wages exists. Americans are attracting massive

486
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,839
numbers of Europeans who want to come work in either

487
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,079
work in You know, there's a kind of bifurcation, and

488
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,880
it appeals to two types of people can either come

489
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,360
and work in these new American factories, or you can

490
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,199
strike out on the frontier and homestead. Of course, these

491
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:19,719
are major political issues as well, and by eighteen forty eight,

492
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,800
when Germany undergoes its own liberal revolutionary attempt by a

493
00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:30,559
strange mixture of Liberals and Marxists that fails, it's perhaps

494
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,480
a decade of the Zolverin in the German customs Union

495
00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:38,039
that helps bind it together and as a federal power

496
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,639
resist what otherwise could have been salami sliced and piecemeal

497
00:34:42,679 --> 00:34:47,360
by this revolutionary movement. So you could say it's an

498
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,960
idea before it's time. But you know, in many cases,

499
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,079
when you read about the real politics of the nineteenth century,

500
00:34:57,199 --> 00:35:01,960
it's even zanier than political interaction is now. And you know,

501
00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:03,920
I was reading about the bank war the other day

502
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,079
between Jackson and Biddle, and it really has nothing to

503
00:35:07,119 --> 00:35:10,880
do with Jackson's views on banking, or even that he

504
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,440
necessarily had any that were dogmatic, but really just a

505
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:18,480
power struggle with someone who was asserting his influence without

506
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,639
being elected president. So there's a lot of rubbing the

507
00:35:22,679 --> 00:35:28,280
wrong way and things like that. So yeah, a List

508
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:35,360
would variably return to Germany serve some portion of his sentence.

509
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,079
And I mean, he was just all over Europe in

510
00:35:39,079 --> 00:35:43,039
the United States from basically the time of his conviction

511
00:35:43,199 --> 00:35:49,519
until he committed suicide following his failed attempt at reaching

512
00:35:49,599 --> 00:35:52,840
some kind of trade agreement between Germany and England when

513
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,760
he met with the Cobb dunits. So it's pretty hard

514
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:03,000
to qualify, you know, what exactly lists personal issues were

515
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:07,760
when his modern biographer is doing so from a kind

516
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,079
of perspective of a fest scrift right that this is

517
00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:16,360
like a celebration of lists prominence as an early German thinker.

518
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,920
The forward to that Vendler book is written by a

519
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,159
recent president of Germany and the introduction is written by

520
00:36:23,159 --> 00:36:28,800
the mayor of List's hometown. So yeah, I don't know that,

521
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:32,440
I don't know that there is anything more to it

522
00:36:32,519 --> 00:36:36,519
than rabble rousing and kind of I don't know.

523
00:36:36,599 --> 00:36:42,199
Speaker 1: Post crisis, do you think that he one of the

524
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,639
reasons you could call him or one of the reasons

525
00:36:46,639 --> 00:36:52,360
he was so popular and was because he foresaw exactly

526
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,760
what was happening with the technological what the industrial revolution,

527
00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:03,199
and that he was able to, you know, basically craft

528
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,559
a kind of economic theory or economic approach around it.

529
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it gave a lot of inspiration to nationalist thinkers.

530
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,239
So List, and it's not just List, it's the German

531
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:23,559
historical school of economics that follows List and takes their

532
00:37:23,599 --> 00:37:26,599
cues from him. You know, anyone that's read the report

533
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:31,559
or the National System of Political Economy Lists magnum Opus,

534
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,079
you'll know that the whole first third is just it's history, right,

535
00:37:35,159 --> 00:37:40,039
It's a historiography of various nations and their evolution toward

536
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:42,840
whatever trade system they find themselves in now and system

537
00:37:43,039 --> 00:37:46,559
of economy to find themselves in now. So you know,

538
00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:49,519
List is very much oriented not on theory, not in

539
00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:53,880
this idea that theory comes first and you're restrained by theory,

540
00:37:54,119 --> 00:37:58,800
which is the hallmark of the deductive theorists of you know,

541
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,639
Adam Smith, Malthus and Ricardo, the orthodox of English economic

542
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,280
literature and teaching at the time. But instead that you

543
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,000
start from observation and you end in theory, which is

544
00:38:11,039 --> 00:38:14,519
actually the structure of the book. So you start with observation,

545
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:21,880
and for nationalists, we're seeing this kind of growing sentiment

546
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:26,000
that starts with the receiving of Napoleonic power from continental

547
00:38:26,039 --> 00:38:29,320
Europe that, as I mentioned, it mediatized in Germany and

548
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,920
then places like Italy. It brought I think for the

549
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,800
necessity of an invading conqueror to maintain a political control

550
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,840
over these places. It brought these groups closer together. There's

551
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:45,840
a notion of economic competition. There's Salon culture throughout Europe

552
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:51,000
that's tracked by some of the other chroniclers of Lists.

553
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:56,400
I guess the penetration of his ideas into countries like Japan, China, Italy,

554
00:38:56,559 --> 00:39:00,519
Russia all during the nineteenth century, and they're literally reading

555
00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:03,519
a codified version of what they are seeing in the

556
00:39:03,639 --> 00:39:07,760
United States having accomplished, and so they're thinking, like, Okay,

557
00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:10,760
I need to start to examine. I need to start

558
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,400
to have my universities have people who examine some of

559
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,559
these important goods. I need to maybe bounty the copying

560
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,159
of this technology, like the United States to textile mills

561
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,719
early on. I need to somehow implant industry. Need to

562
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:29,239
have other scholars who are kind of yoped to state

563
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,840
incomes that are providing for their education to go and

564
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,039
examine whether or not we have resources and what they

565
00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:39,599
can be turned into. And so this is all kind

566
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:43,119
of inherent and lists work, and it's celebrated as a

567
00:39:43,159 --> 00:39:48,119
means of providing the fulcrumb that these early kind of

568
00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:52,280
national experiments can use to first bind the populace together

569
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:59,280
in a common domestic market while protecting as they industrialize,

570
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,440
that common domestic market from being invaded again or reinvaded

571
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,719
by cheap imports. And once you have, once you're producing things,

572
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,719
you have this very compact what Kerry called the harmony

573
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,199
of interest, right, you have a very compact domestic market

574
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:20,760
where you are feeding say suburban farm is feeding a

575
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,719
growing or exurban farm would be feeding a growing industrial

576
00:40:26,079 --> 00:40:29,079
kind of conturbation. Like as a city grew around a factory,

577
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,519
and if you place that factory near the resource that

578
00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:35,920
it's adding value to, then you know, you might have

579
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,840
an iron mind grow into a small city. The iron

580
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,280
minds being fed by a farm. The literal waste from

581
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,599
the iron mind workers is being sent to the farm

582
00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:50,079
to fertilize it, to reconstitute the food that's now going

583
00:40:51,079 --> 00:40:54,000
you know, into the mouths of the iron miners, and

584
00:40:54,599 --> 00:40:59,960
those iron miners are producing nails, and those nails are

585
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:01,840
used to build right the rest of the things. You

586
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,920
get the idea so that you're not supporting any kind

587
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,079
of international trade by winning off workers from your economy

588
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:13,960
to go and I don't know, work on merchant marine ships.

589
00:41:15,079 --> 00:41:18,000
You're not sending your resources overseas. You're not feeding a

590
00:41:18,039 --> 00:41:20,199
foreign country. You're not relying on a foreign country to

591
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,119
feed you in cases where you have to import food.

592
00:41:23,159 --> 00:41:28,840
So it does create a very compact, insular nugget from which,

593
00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:31,480
you know, a seed from which this kind of national

594
00:41:31,559 --> 00:41:36,000
feeling can grow. I believe in the forward of Imperium

595
00:41:36,039 --> 00:41:41,559
Press is publication of National system by List Francis O'beerni

596
00:41:41,639 --> 00:41:42,880
I believe his name is. I don't know if I'm

597
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,760
pronouncing that correctly. He brings in James Gregor's I believe

598
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,559
it's called like reactive nationalism right where Gregor talks about

599
00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:54,159
the utility of List in the mid nineteenth century as

600
00:41:54,519 --> 00:41:59,519
all these various European nations begin to try the country thing, right,

601
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,400
So that's kind of lists utility there. As I mentioned,

602
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:10,199
List is not the most complete nationalist thinker or protectionist

603
00:42:10,199 --> 00:42:14,079
thinker from the American school. I think in large part

604
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,840
lists prominences owed to the fact that he was able

605
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,079
to leave America and write his ideas down in France,

606
00:42:21,119 --> 00:42:24,360
where they took root in the eighteen thirties. Again, the

607
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,159
Forest Gump like quality of List in meeting Adolph Tears

608
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,400
as a historian at the time who then becomes Prime

609
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,320
Minister of France is quite propitious. And from there, you know,

610
00:42:34,599 --> 00:42:38,559
he's got a safe haven to write his book National System.

611
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,159
It's not even translated into English and available in the

612
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:45,880
United States for another decade or so, but that takes

613
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:51,639
root in Germany and it's spread as it's translated throughout

614
00:42:51,679 --> 00:42:54,840
the continent into Eurasia, and as I mentioned, back to

615
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,000
the United States, not just through the means of the book,

616
00:42:57,079 --> 00:42:59,880
but by the German historical school that crops up in

617
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:04,679
German universities, the patronage of Bismarck to Lists ideas, and

618
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,440
the rising popularity of figures like Henry Carey in the

619
00:43:09,519 --> 00:43:15,239
United States who has some traction within Bismarcky and circles.

620
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:21,239
So there's this exchange of ideas that were only possible

621
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,360
even though they come from America if they set root

622
00:43:24,559 --> 00:43:27,800
in foreign countries. It reminds me of the kind of

623
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:33,000
modern listing and concepts that helped Japan be built into

624
00:43:33,039 --> 00:43:38,559
a economic superpower following the war. You know, you hear

625
00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:42,440
a lot about Japanese management techniques, but if you dig

626
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:45,320
into the origins of those management techniques, in many cases

627
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:49,599
they were American management techniques that had no purchase inside

628
00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:53,440
the United States. So I suppose you'd call it kind

629
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,039
of like ideological boomerang effect. And you know, list is

630
00:43:58,079 --> 00:44:01,119
important because he was able to to I guess, have

631
00:44:01,199 --> 00:44:05,519
these ideas spread in ways that the American Academy had

632
00:44:05,559 --> 00:44:09,320
no interest in spreading the ideas of their ideological opponents,

633
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,199
the protectionists in the United States, I guess variously the Federalists,

634
00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:19,840
the Republicans, the Whigs, the Anti Masons, and then the

635
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,920
modern Republican Party. They had a fairly short run. They

636
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,679
were never interested in dominating the Academy or making inroads

637
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,800
there beyond the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania,

638
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,360
which becomes mostly short up as a protectionist institution by

639
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,320
again the boomerang that comes back from the German historical school.

640
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,079
So they're interested in governance. They have a great deal

641
00:44:43,079 --> 00:44:47,440
of success in spreading their versions of protectionism, which again

642
00:44:47,559 --> 00:44:49,639
come from the same They're rooted on the same tree.

643
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,039
That lists is, there's a very few degrees of separation

644
00:44:53,679 --> 00:44:56,920
between them, but they mostly do that as an artifact

645
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:01,840
the state power when they become a dominant Union party

646
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,360
following the Civil War. Throughout the Civil War, when the

647
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:08,320
Democrats are basically abolished from the field until eighteen seventy seven,

648
00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:14,400
so you know, they used an entirely different method state craft,

649
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,760
in particular Erasmus P. Shin Smith going and kind of

650
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,880
undoing a lot of British work in Japan in the

651
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,159
eighteen seventies as the number three yeor number four man

652
00:45:25,199 --> 00:45:29,000
in the State Department. The strong ties that Seward and

653
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,199
Hamilton Fish, Secretary of State, Fish have with Alexander the

654
00:45:32,199 --> 00:45:36,760
Second of Russia that result in the sale of Alaska

655
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,760
to the United States, that result in Alexander the Second

656
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:44,000
being the only national leader to support the Union in

657
00:45:44,039 --> 00:45:47,719
the Civil War, sending fleets to San Francisco and New York.

658
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:52,840
So you know, it's there were other means of spreading

659
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:58,599
these ideas, but I think the destruction of the Americans,

660
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:05,519
of the American school proper by the Great Reproachment, the

661
00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:09,679
transplantation of Cobdenism in a transatlantic sense from Britain to

662
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,679
the United States in that period, and it really led

663
00:46:12,679 --> 00:46:15,960
to this just complete burial of protectionist thinking in the

664
00:46:16,039 --> 00:46:20,239
United States until Donald Trump revived it. Also a Wharton

665
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,320
Man right, and Trump comes out of nowhere even as

666
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,239
early as twenty fourteen, digging up strange quotes about learning

667
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:31,320
to think continentally, getting mocked by the media for calling

668
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,079
himself tariff Man on stage until someone pulls out that,

669
00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:38,400
you know, McKinley. President McKinley, the Apostle of protection used

670
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,280
that as a campaign slogan some you know, one hundred

671
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,920
and twenty years before. So for some reason the spark

672
00:46:46,079 --> 00:46:48,559
was kept lit long enough in the United States to

673
00:46:48,599 --> 00:46:51,199
be revived. And you'll find through a survey of the

674
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,960
literature that it did kind of transfer through the old

675
00:46:56,039 --> 00:46:59,559
right to a degree. There were a handful of American

676
00:46:59,599 --> 00:47:04,440
system American school protectionists in the paleo conservative camp, which

677
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,239
is of course quite a jumble if anybody's ever looked.

678
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:12,880
But yeah, I think List's popularity and his durability came

679
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,760
from being the kind of I guess like the the

680
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:24,159
ideological leader of what supports nationalism, the econometrics that bind

681
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,800
a polity together everywhere but the United States. His ideas

682
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,840
were formative here, but they were I guess, done several

683
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:39,400
times better by his followers like Henry Carey, Erasmus P.

684
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:44,679
Shein Smith, David Hall, Rice Samuel, or Simon Patton. There

685
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,400
are quite a few of them that were, you know,

686
00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:49,639
much more advanced thinkers and much more granular. And they

687
00:47:49,639 --> 00:47:53,519
had their specific critiques of List as well, but they

688
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:56,679
didn't with the exception in some cases of Kerrie managed

689
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,800
to break out of the American paradigm. And what's funny

690
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,920
about List, as this kind of father of global protectionism is,

691
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,760
you know, he was critiqued by his American counterparts is

692
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,840
not being universal enough. He was not the kind of

693
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:19,000
the great generalizer of protectionism. You know. As part of

694
00:48:19,519 --> 00:48:25,679
his historical analysis and his inductivism was saying that there

695
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,840
is no universal principle of economics, unlike what Smith or

696
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:35,840
Ricardo would have their readers believe that nations are highly specific.

697
00:48:36,039 --> 00:48:38,280
The types of people they have within them are radically

698
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,000
different from one nation to the next, The resources that

699
00:48:41,079 --> 00:48:44,760
contain are radically different. There's a context here, you know,

700
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,920
and this is kind of the root of historicism is

701
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,599
that it is contextualized. So that's a kind of rich irony.

702
00:48:52,679 --> 00:48:54,840
But you can see how that message in a way

703
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,000
leads to a universality and that there's something unique about

704
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,320
you as an Italian, right, There's something you need about

705
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,880
you use a Japanese and there's something unique about the

706
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,400
resources you command as a leader of this country. And

707
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,039
that means, you know, you will be able to develop

708
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:14,639
a very unique set of industries and either trade for

709
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,239
the rest or as an emerging kind of revisionism of

710
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,280
list that I mentioned from Mark William Palin is implying

711
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:28,119
lately engage in colonialism. I mentioned that list, you know,

712
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,000
had he recognized the three stages, and that if you're

713
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:35,239
at the third stage, as England was, you were going

714
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,440
around with your big navy and your merchant marine fleet

715
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,559
and your prominence as the workshop of the world, and

716
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,079
it was in your interest to try and import everybody

717
00:49:45,079 --> 00:49:48,400
else's raw materials and give them back much more expensive

718
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,000
value added manufactured goods, prevent them from ever having an

719
00:49:52,039 --> 00:49:56,760
industrial base, keep them captive control even the amount of

720
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,599
food they can eat. Simon Patten, who I mentioned. He

721
00:49:59,639 --> 00:50:04,159
brought up that monocropping, you know, really reduced a nation's

722
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,440
ability to have hardened itself in a sovereigntist fashion against

723
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:12,000
this kind of foreign predation. So you know where we

724
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:16,599
see countries even in Western Africa now that just produce chocolate, right,

725
00:50:17,079 --> 00:50:19,039
I can't remember which one it is, the Ivory Coast

726
00:50:19,119 --> 00:50:21,559
or something where you can watch videos of guys going

727
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:24,000
around with buckets and sticks and they're just shaking cocoa

728
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,920
beans out of trees. There's no industry there. You know,

729
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:30,440
the most advanced form of transportation is a mopet, and

730
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:35,880
yet you're buying chocolate. Chocolate is this global staple at

731
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:40,039
this point, but not a chocolate bar is produced where

732
00:50:40,079 --> 00:50:44,360
the beans are grown. So list foresaw that. He said,

733
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,199
you know there's places where it's just not probably going

734
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:53,000
to be possible. And if that's true, then you know,

735
00:50:53,079 --> 00:50:57,000
and you need to garner the foreign resources of other

736
00:50:57,039 --> 00:51:02,519
countries to make articles for export for your export economy.

737
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:05,280
I mentioned Chinese electric vehicles. A lot of those resources

738
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:08,039
don't come from China. They come from other countries. They

739
00:51:08,079 --> 00:51:13,000
are then refined into and that value added into a

740
00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:16,880
complete product. That's the exported but more advanced forms of

741
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:21,599
protectionist theory, and I see economists like Charles Benoi from

742
00:51:21,639 --> 00:51:24,800
the Coalition for Prosperous America, which is the leading and

743
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:30,079
perhaps only protectionist lobby in the United States, say, you know,

744
00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:34,920
why would you export any of your energy? Why would

745
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,400
you export oil at all? Right? Why you know these

746
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:41,199
are limited, finite resources within your own national boundaries. Why

747
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:43,880
would you even export food? Why would you allow the

748
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,440
Chinese to buy Smithfield and not only export, not only

749
00:51:48,519 --> 00:51:53,599
own the largest American port producer, but also purchase like

750
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:57,079
two thirds of America soybeans to feed their own pigs.

751
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,800
Why would you take nutrients out of your own soil?

752
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:02,760
Why would you take or out of your soil to

753
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,000
export it? So in a very i guess, almost autistically

754
00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:11,719
granular system of protection, you're seeking the maximum advantage on

755
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:15,920
a global scale by only refining for export things that

756
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,840
you're getting from lesser countries, and that way you're not

757
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:23,920
actually reducing or removing natural resources from your domestic market

758
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:30,480
or economy. And you know this leads to accusations of imperialism.

759
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:37,280
You know, Palin has multiple examples of nations in a

760
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,280
kind of circumstantial sense like Japan who get on board

761
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,480
with American school ideas and then immediately roll up on

762
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:50,800
their lesser developed neighbors. So that is, I guess, a

763
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,639
kind of emerging theory. And I'll note that Palin is

764
00:52:53,679 --> 00:52:56,519
attempting to do this, and you're going to roll your

765
00:52:56,519 --> 00:53:03,320
eyes at this peek to develop a kind of ultraliberal

766
00:53:03,599 --> 00:53:07,719
third worldist free trade movement. Right, it's kind of a

767
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,400
very new thing. Like think about wokeism and free trade together.

768
00:53:13,199 --> 00:53:17,280
So that's where these critiques of list are coming from,

769
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,360
these emerging critiques. Somebody put me onto that recently. They said,

770
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,719
he got to check out this group of globalist like

771
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,119
like woke college students or whatever around Palan. They're all

772
00:53:28,159 --> 00:53:31,800
into free trade, you know, rather than free trade being

773
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,039
this kind of bugbear. I'm sure you remember the wto

774
00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:40,800
riots kind of traditional left orthodoxy that emerges from Marxist

775
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,719
critiques of free trade that used to predominate. And this

776
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:47,760
is the kind of new idea. Fix A is boiling Palan,

777
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,639
boils everything down to Cobdenism versus Listians. And while he

778
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:57,559
acknowledges some of the other contributors to protectionist theory, they

779
00:53:57,559 --> 00:54:00,719
are all kind of condensed into list, you know, through

780
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:02,360
the name list in itself.

781
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:08,119
Speaker 1: Well, I assume that the fact that so much of

782
00:54:08,159 --> 00:54:15,079
our manufacturing, American manufacturing is overseas to even institute a

783
00:54:15,159 --> 00:54:18,480
proper Listian kind of approach to our economy. Now, say

784
00:54:18,519 --> 00:54:21,599
we had someone come into power who this is what

785
00:54:21,639 --> 00:54:26,559
they wanted to do. To see it succeed the way

786
00:54:26,599 --> 00:54:33,039
it should, we'd probably need to build a whole much

787
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:38,960
more manufacturing factories and everything. Can you see it being

788
00:54:39,639 --> 00:54:42,920
done with the level of manufacturing we're at right now

789
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:43,199
as a.

790
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 2: Nation, Well, it is being done through the kind of

791
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:53,000
extension into the Biden administration of Trump's trade policies and

792
00:54:53,039 --> 00:54:56,480
then also the ira and the Chips Act, these massive

793
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:01,639
subsidies from the Biden administration toward securing a new high

794
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:09,199
end manufacturing sector for semiconductors, green technology, electric vehicles, and

795
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:13,960
the irony there is we've turned from the source of

796
00:55:14,039 --> 00:55:17,920
these ideas. You know, I mentioned the kind of Chinese

797
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,440
predilection for using nineteenth century American political economy to build

798
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:26,920
its export based economy, to establish its tariffs, establish a

799
00:55:27,159 --> 00:55:31,760
strong domestic market infrastructure. They do this through bountying technologies.

800
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,639
You know, in almost every case, if it's their high

801
00:55:34,639 --> 00:55:38,800
speed rail network that was done by having the China

802
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,079
the Japanese come in and build out high speed rail

803
00:55:41,119 --> 00:55:45,840
networks to a limited degree reverse engineer. Those don't need

804
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,440
to buy Japanese trains or rail anymore. You're building it yourself, right,

805
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,519
and now you can export that like they're planning on

806
00:55:51,599 --> 00:55:57,920
doing to places like Vietnam. So China's using what Hudson,

807
00:55:58,039 --> 00:56:02,079
you know, titled his text them his protectionists takeoff. China

808
00:56:02,199 --> 00:56:06,079
is using these techniques Hudson at the beginning of that book,

809
00:56:06,159 --> 00:56:09,519
he's I don't know, I don't want to say clueless,

810
00:56:09,559 --> 00:56:12,840
but Hudson, you know, a typical academic. He talks about like,

811
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:14,880
you know, it's funny. There's no real market for these

812
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,599
concepts in the United States, but they sure do love

813
00:56:17,679 --> 00:56:19,639
me in China. They bring me over there all the time.

814
00:56:20,159 --> 00:56:24,199
So United States is in this hilarious position where and

815
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,800
maybe protectionists can take advantage of this or will just

816
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:32,519
naturally benefit from it that China, as a competitor to

817
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:35,840
the United States, is now creating the rules much like

818
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:39,079
England did for someone like Friedrich List two hundred years ago,

819
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:44,400
and the sad irony I suppose, depending on how you

820
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,639
feel about it, is that reindustrialization in America is being

821
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:55,599
driven by nations that we industrialized, because in the mid

822
00:56:55,679 --> 00:56:59,480
twentieth century, this was our export. As we switched to

823
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,119
a global free trade economy, as we gradually abolished tariffs

824
00:57:04,119 --> 00:57:08,639
and de industrialized, that future investment was going to places

825
00:57:08,679 --> 00:57:12,000
like Japan to prevent it from falling into communist hands.

826
00:57:12,039 --> 00:57:15,440
Japan at a very active communist party. The United States

827
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:20,559
needed to not only maintain Japan militarily, which created great

828
00:57:20,599 --> 00:57:23,440
savings for the nation of Japan. It didn't really have

829
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,719
a military until recently. The United States was securing it.

830
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:31,000
The United States was ensuring that communists couldn't take over

831
00:57:31,159 --> 00:57:36,079
Japan through its patronage or vassalization of the one party system,

832
00:57:36,199 --> 00:57:39,159
the LDP, the nineteen fifty five system as they call

833
00:57:39,159 --> 00:57:44,360
it there. And you know, Japan built this highly protected

834
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:48,760
economy that used central banking to deflate its currency to

835
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:53,039
drive exports. Now we hear those lines from Robert Leitheiser,

836
00:57:53,119 --> 00:57:55,760
who was Trump's United States Trade representative, Right, we need

837
00:57:55,800 --> 00:58:00,199
to deflate our currency to drive exports. You know, we

838
00:58:00,239 --> 00:58:05,519
need to engage in punitive tariffs to achieve this middle ground,

839
00:58:05,559 --> 00:58:08,719
which is closer to list I would say a fair trade,

840
00:58:08,719 --> 00:58:11,719
as Peter Navarro and Leithheiser call it, where you only

841
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:16,559
use a tariff to abolish a foreign tariff, which does nothing,

842
00:58:16,599 --> 00:58:21,480
of course, to replace the income tax, which everybody in

843
00:58:21,519 --> 00:58:25,519
the GOP believe's theft. Right, this post nineteen thirteen system

844
00:58:25,599 --> 00:58:29,280
that pivoted from the collection of duties from foreign manufacturers

845
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,679
who wanted access toward domestic market to instead picking the

846
00:58:32,719 --> 00:58:37,440
pocket of American workers. So, you know, these are half majors,

847
00:58:37,519 --> 00:58:40,679
and they're really just meant to compete with a country

848
00:58:40,719 --> 00:58:44,800
that's using what it learned from America's shift out of

849
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:50,360
an agrarian society that was disconnected into the kind of

850
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,480
envy of the manufacturing world. And so where are these

851
00:58:53,599 --> 00:58:56,840
industries coming back to the United States from? Well, Europe?

852
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:59,719
You know, I watched a documentary the other day from

853
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:04,599
the fire Financial Times about the countries building plants in

854
00:59:04,599 --> 00:59:07,039
the United States as a result of IRA and Chips

855
00:59:07,079 --> 00:59:11,480
Act subsidies. They're coming from Denmark. We rebuilt Denmark with

856
00:59:11,519 --> 00:59:14,199
the Marshall Plan to prevent it from going communist in

857
00:59:14,239 --> 00:59:17,519
the post war era. That's boomerang back. You may remember

858
00:59:17,599 --> 00:59:22,800
fifteen years ago when Fiat bought Chrysler and the irony

859
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,320
there is. One of the hallmark proposals or projects of

860
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:30,400
the Marshall Plan was sending automotive manufacturing equipment to Yanni

861
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:35,159
Agnelli of Fiat in in the nineteen fifties. We built

862
00:59:35,159 --> 00:59:38,400
the Italian auto industry in large part to provide high

863
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,239
wages to prevent it from going communist, you know, when

864
00:59:41,239 --> 00:59:45,480
the CIA wasn't preventing the Italian communists from winning elections outright,

865
00:59:46,199 --> 00:59:50,559
So that's a boomerang that came back. We industrialized Italy,

866
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:55,760
we export protectionism, We show them how to do these things.

867
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:03,480
We build from rupple new entirely new economies. And because

868
01:00:03,679 --> 01:00:07,719
we have forsaken our own industrial investment to do that,

869
01:00:08,599 --> 01:00:12,000
because we send the money to build the transistorization or

870
01:00:12,039 --> 01:00:17,280
solid state manufacturing economy in Japan, American financial capital buys

871
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,320
low and builds an entire industrial sector and it doesn't

872
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,119
happen here, and it moves on when it has to

873
01:00:25,159 --> 01:00:30,519
come back for security reasons or energy reasons. You're seeing

874
01:00:30,719 --> 01:00:36,760
German companies now well not reshoring, but offshoring their industry,

875
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,880
their new build industry to the United States, Biden has

876
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:44,480
refused to export liquid natural gas. This is kind of

877
01:00:44,519 --> 01:00:51,880
seen as a campaign a campaign gift to the I

878
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:54,159
guess the Greens in the United States, right, he's trying

879
01:00:54,199 --> 01:00:57,320
to maybe buy off environmentalists, But what he's also doing

880
01:00:57,440 --> 01:01:01,519
is massively raising energy prices in Germany. Energy prices in

881
01:01:01,559 --> 01:01:06,320
the United States are very low. Germany is being told to,

882
01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:11,559
you know, withdraw foreign direct investment and economic interdependence from

883
01:01:11,599 --> 01:01:15,360
the Chinese as a security issue, so that cheap labor

884
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:20,760
from China. Germany's last offshoring target is now offshore to

885
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,119
the United States. But of course we built the West

886
01:01:23,119 --> 01:01:28,920
German economy. They're a vassalized state. Germany has probably more

887
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:33,519
American military power within its borders than German military power

888
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:37,800
because we secured them. So we spent all this money,

889
01:01:38,239 --> 01:01:44,239
We spent all this money building these protectionist states, and

890
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,360
now I guess the bills come to and they're reshowing

891
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:51,920
to the US. Even Trump has floated, you know, while

892
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,199
he wants a massive tariff on Chinese electric vehicles to

893
01:01:55,199 --> 01:01:58,440
prevent their importation here, he would be okay if they

894
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:03,480
built plants here. So that's the kind of bitter sweet

895
01:02:04,159 --> 01:02:07,800
aspect of these restoring policies. Plus, as a lot of

896
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:12,480
you guys know, these are high tech manufacturing jobs. They

897
01:02:12,679 --> 01:02:15,599
are there's a high degree of automation inherent to them.

898
01:02:16,119 --> 01:02:19,320
So these new factories aren't taking in you know, one

899
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:23,800
hundred thousand Phonetians in Arizona are not going to the

900
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:29,320
Taiwanese semiconductor manufacturing plant and you know, looking through loops

901
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,800
and you know, like a jeweler and carving a semiconductor

902
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:34,719
out of a piece of silicon. That's how it works.

903
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:39,079
With each iterative new build of a factory, they're using

904
01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:42,320
fewer and fewer people to do this. But also the

905
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:47,360
United States has visa carve outs just for high tech

906
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:53,159
or highly educated foreign foreign workers. So in many cases

907
01:02:53,199 --> 01:02:56,800
each jobs are not going to even go to Americans.

908
01:02:57,679 --> 01:03:01,559
So I don't like a black here, But there is

909
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:06,960
a boomerang effect where in a way, it vindicates List

910
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,360
and it vindicates the other protectionist thinkers that this is

911
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,559
a way of securing a foreign nation against you know,

912
01:03:14,719 --> 01:03:18,719
securing a nation against foreign intrusion. And maybe the best

913
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:23,480
way to prevent Japan from going communist was to use

914
01:03:23,559 --> 01:03:29,000
protectionist principles to secure it. Japan then became the industrializer

915
01:03:29,159 --> 01:03:32,400
of the so called Asian Tigers starting in the nineteen seventies,

916
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:36,920
once Japan began to try and escape right the economic

917
01:03:37,159 --> 01:03:40,480
choke hold and vassalization of the United States. You may

918
01:03:40,519 --> 01:03:44,119
remember the last decade and the bursting of the Japanese

919
01:03:44,119 --> 01:03:48,280
banks in the nineteen eighties and the inevitable transfer then

920
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:55,639
of Japanese industry or industrial development into China. But you

921
01:03:55,639 --> 01:04:00,159
know that I think speaks to the shrewdness of a

922
01:04:00,239 --> 01:04:04,800
fully financialized or what List would call the third tier

923
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:07,159
of the third phase, you know, the third part of

924
01:04:07,199 --> 01:04:12,719
the third phase, a commerce nation. So you know, when

925
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,960
List talks about technology, he's not just talking about gadgets

926
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:22,000
and gizmos. He's also talking about advancement and the most advanced.

927
01:04:22,599 --> 01:04:24,840
Like I said, the third point and the third most

928
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:31,039
tier or phase of economic advancement is commerce and financial

929
01:04:31,079 --> 01:04:35,400
technology now predominates. And he points out, you know, what's

930
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:41,039
good for individuals. You know, it's a major Listing kind

931
01:04:41,039 --> 01:04:46,159
of knock against Adam Smith is what's he called cosmopolitanism.

932
01:04:46,239 --> 01:04:49,559
You know, you can't just think about individual benefit from

933
01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:52,920
economy or econometrics and economic policy. You have to think

934
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,559
about national benefit and he says, yeah, to a degree,

935
01:04:56,599 --> 01:05:02,639
we have to understand that technological subsidies may benefit fewer

936
01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:07,559
people inside the nation itself, kind of pointing their presaging

937
01:05:07,599 --> 01:05:13,760
the Cronius argument. But America's financial elite made a lot

938
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:18,480
of money off global labor arbitrage, finding cheap labor, gaining

939
01:05:18,599 --> 01:05:22,320
cheap subsidies from countries like China, or cheap energy subsidies.

940
01:05:22,519 --> 01:05:27,840
But China built a competitive hedgemon. Right, China is looking

941
01:05:28,039 --> 01:05:31,760
like the US is pacing competitor now, and it seems

942
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,159
like the United States government has coerciing, especially the venture

943
01:05:35,199 --> 01:05:39,519
capitalists who built China's dual use meaning military and civilian

944
01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:43,079
industrial base. There was a scandal about McKenzie and company

945
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,320
basically delivering to the Chinese fifteen years ago the roadmap

946
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:51,280
that they've used to develop a competitive economy. There's been

947
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:55,440
a lot of strange stories about venture capitalists like Sequoia

948
01:05:55,599 --> 01:05:59,239
having to destroy their Chinese arm and now they're fully

949
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:02,079
on board their way in the US flag. They're investing

950
01:06:02,119 --> 01:06:06,920
heavily in defense technology that's meant to contain China's rise.

951
01:06:07,679 --> 01:06:10,920
They're using the same talking points you hear from Chinese

952
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:14,679
economists about the use of so called government growth funds

953
01:06:14,679 --> 01:06:19,159
in China or hear private public partnerships. So yeah, there's

954
01:06:19,599 --> 01:06:24,480
protectionisms back in a weird distorted way, but it doesn't

955
01:06:24,519 --> 01:06:29,760
really have anything to do with nationalism or America as

956
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:37,000
you know, again a common domestic market. Yet so it's

957
01:06:37,159 --> 01:06:40,880
very perverse and strange. I don't know, I don't really

958
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:45,239
know how to qualify beyond those means. I mean, I

959
01:06:45,239 --> 01:06:48,400
guess that's like the kind of the tomorrow of these

960
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,159
Listian ideas.

961
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 1: Well. I really appreciate everything. Thank you. That's a lot

962
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:56,880
of information, and I think this is one of those

963
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:00,480
episodes that some people might even want to listen to twice,

964
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,119
because I know I'm going to go back and listen

965
01:07:03,159 --> 01:07:05,480
to it over again. I look forward to editing it

966
01:07:05,519 --> 01:07:08,480
so I can listen to it again. Tell people how

967
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:09,400
they can find your work.

968
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 2: I'm on Twitter at Cozy tv, Wendell all one Word,

969
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:18,679
and I stream Fridays and hopefully a lot more coming

970
01:07:18,719 --> 01:07:24,679
this fall than just Fridays on Cozy dot tv slash Wendell.

971
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:27,960
Speaker 1: I will, as I did last time, include your links

972
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,639
in the show notes, and I really do appreciate it.

973
01:07:30,679 --> 01:07:35,760
Thank you. I appreciate the wisdom that you bring and

974
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:39,000
the I think the way you presented, I think you're

975
01:07:39,039 --> 01:07:42,440
one of the best presenters of information you know that

976
01:07:42,519 --> 01:07:45,639
we have. So thank you very much. Hey, thanks for

977
01:07:45,679 --> 01:07:49,159
having me on h I'll see you next time, all right,

978
01:07:49,239 --> 01:07:49,639
take care,