1 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: Hello, everybody, this is just Reach's Adventure and Devil. Will 2 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,800 you already laughing at me? You can't put me on 3 00:00:20,839 --> 00:00:23,480 the spot? Do the intro? Now they're laughing at me? 4 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:27,160 All right, Well, I'm Jillian Rowe and with me this 5 00:00:27,239 --> 00:00:30,760 week is Will Button and Jonathan Hall Highouse. 6 00:00:32,039 --> 00:00:34,679 Speaker 2: And technically I'm laughing with you, not at you, because 7 00:00:34,679 --> 00:00:35,439 you were laughing too. 8 00:00:37,719 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: It's okay. I only felt a little bit put on 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:40,359 the spot. 10 00:00:40,399 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 3: I'll forgive you some day to be fair. 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: I did say okay, let's go and then hit record. 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: I'll stand with Billian that she was put on the spot, 13 00:00:48,719 --> 00:00:51,560 but I fully support putting Billian on the spot. So, yeah, 14 00:00:54,759 --> 00:00:56,119 what are we talking about today, guys? 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,799 Speaker 1: All right, we're going to talk about c i CD tools. 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,000 What do you use, what do you hate? Why did 17 00:01:01,039 --> 00:01:03,000 you use it? Do you get a choice? Does your 18 00:01:03,079 --> 00:01:04,799 job just like dictate it for you? Or do you 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,120 have like some kind of some kind of input into 20 00:01:07,159 --> 00:01:09,680 this decision? Why would you make your decisions? Who wants 21 00:01:09,719 --> 00:01:11,640 to hit us up first? And I think you suggested 22 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:13,680 the topics, so she gets put you on the spot. 23 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,079 Speaker 3: Now, okay, yeah, so it's a big topic. So the 24 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:19,599 reason I thought of it is earlier this week was 25 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,439 last week on LinkedIn, one of my contacts asked the 26 00:01:23,519 --> 00:01:26,280 public which CICD tool would you like me to use? 27 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,120 In a demo about how to get started with CICD, 28 00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:32,200 which led into a bigger conversation of which ones are people? 29 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,640 And she did a poll which gave four options, and 30 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,359 none of the four options were things I'd even used before, 31 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,840 and I've used probably a dozen of them. So that 32 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,680 just goes to show that there's a huge selection of 33 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,519 tools to pick from. And I don't know how she 34 00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:49,480 chose her for but I think it was Jenkins and 35 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,120 whatever AWS provides, and maybe Azure DevOps and I don't 36 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,439 know what else. You know, it's a good conversation to have. 37 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,480 I think, how do you choose one of these tools 38 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,280 to use? Because there's so many and they all do 39 00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:03,879 roughly the same thing. They all automate the running of tasks, 40 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,840 which can be running tests, building software, tagging releases, ordering 41 00:02:08,879 --> 00:02:11,120 pizza perhaps whatever they whatever they do, they can they 42 00:02:11,159 --> 00:02:13,879 can automate these things. So yeah, I don't know how 43 00:02:13,879 --> 00:02:16,680 we want to tackle this. I mean, if somebody asked 44 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,240 me quickly, Jonathan, what CSD S will do you prefer. 45 00:02:19,319 --> 00:02:20,639 I have a quick answer to that, and that is 46 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,560 get laud ci. But that's not a very useful answer 47 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,960 without a lot of context, because that's not the answer 48 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:27,879 I would get to everybody. And if ask me what 49 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,319 should they do, that's a different question than what do 50 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,319 I prefer? So, yeah, I don't know how we want 51 00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:33,080 to tackle this today. 52 00:02:33,439 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: I think that I think there's like two different ways 53 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,800 to answer this. You know, there's I'm starting out choosing 54 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,879 a CICD tool, and we have a CICD tool in 55 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,120 place and we want to replace it. And for that 56 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:55,039 latter question, my go to response is always don't. I mean, 57 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:57,919 they all have things that they're good at and bad at, 58 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,919 and the cost of transitioning from one to the other. 59 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,280 There's just not enough value in it because you might 60 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,960 solve one specific problem, but you're introducing other problems that 61 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:11,719 you don't know you have problems with. 62 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: Yet I tend to agree it's. 63 00:03:13,439 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: Always a trade off. Yeah, everything like that is a 64 00:03:16,159 --> 00:03:16,639 trade off. 65 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: The best CICD is the one that you already have installed. 66 00:03:20,879 --> 00:03:24,039 Speaker 3: Usually. Yeah, So there are times when it's appropriate to change, 67 00:03:24,039 --> 00:03:27,280 but not for that reason, like if you're changing from 68 00:03:27,319 --> 00:03:29,520 at lastly and to GitHub for example, you maybe need 69 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,439 to change from Bamboo to get hub actions at the 70 00:03:31,439 --> 00:03:33,879 same time, but not because you want to change your 71 00:03:33,879 --> 00:03:37,360 CSD tool, just because you're changing everything else simultaneously, for sure, 72 00:03:37,439 --> 00:03:40,240 So I would almost I mean, there have been times 73 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,800 when I migrated off of a CSP tool, but there 74 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,879 were cases where it was not being used properly or 75 00:03:44,919 --> 00:03:47,919 being used very little, so that there was very little 76 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,800 invested and it wasn't doing much for us. So you know, 77 00:03:51,039 --> 00:03:53,080 it was basically a proof of concept that we decided 78 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,199 not to continue with, if you want to make up 79 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,000 that way. So that's a different scenario than I think 80 00:03:57,039 --> 00:03:59,199 what you're talking about. If you have a CICD configured 81 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,680 and already doing some thing valuable, I think really hard 82 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:06,840 before changing, really really hard. When you when you're done 83 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:09,000 thinking hard, go think hard again. 84 00:04:10,599 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: I think there are some good stories behind these opinions. 85 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,079 You guys have a like emotional trauma to share around 86 00:04:16,319 --> 00:04:18,959 switching up c I S peoples and then realizing it 87 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,199 was it was a terrible, terrible mistake. Or clearly you 88 00:04:22,199 --> 00:04:24,319 guys have never made such a mistake like that, right. 89 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,439 Speaker 3: No, No, I thought really hard and decided not to 90 00:04:26,519 --> 00:04:27,000 do it. 91 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: I've I think my experience forming that opinion has been 92 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:37,519 from not from switching, but from having exposure to several 93 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,160 different ones, Like I've used git Lab, I've used Jenkins, 94 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,199 I've used Circle CI, Travis CI and all of them. Like, 95 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:49,800 I can't see the value. There's a fe use cases 96 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,720 for it, but I can't see on the surface the 97 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,879 value in switching from one to the other because I've 98 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,480 I've used a lot of them, and each has their 99 00:04:58,519 --> 00:05:03,160 own strengths and weaknesses, but enough to justify rebuilding all 100 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,920 that stuff, especially if you have like a lot have 101 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,800 it doing a lot. You know, if you have a 102 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,439 lot of different pipelines, that's going to be some pain. 103 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,600 And at the at the end, you know, what did 104 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:16,959 you really gain? What value did the customers who are 105 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,920 buying or using your product to get from you switching 106 00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:21,240 the CICD solution. 107 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,519 Speaker 3: I want to add to that. And there might be 108 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,480 times when it's appropriate to change, if you're using an 109 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,079 anti antiquated tool, for example, or it's just too slow 110 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,439 or it doesn't integrate with things you're needing to do. 111 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,680 But if you go that route, don't change everything at once, 112 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,600 just implement the new things you need. I know that 113 00:05:38,639 --> 00:05:40,959 there's the engineer and every one of us hates this 114 00:05:41,079 --> 00:05:44,439 idea of maintaining two systems, but it's worth it versus 115 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,439 trying to do turn to ram everything of the new 116 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,199 system and breaking stuff along the way, just to admit 117 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,720 you're going to maintain two systems, one for the new 118 00:05:52,759 --> 00:05:55,680 stuff that immigrates with the Raspberry pies or whatever weird 119 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,759 thing you're trying to do, and the old one that 120 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:58,879 manages the old stuff. 121 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: Cool. Well, what about somebody who's switching to or not 122 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:06,920 switching but starting clean slink projects CICD tool. What are 123 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:08,920 kind of the scenarios where we would choose one or 124 00:06:08,959 --> 00:06:11,000 the other. I have one right off the bat. If 125 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,720 you have data or some kind of data or software 126 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:16,560 that have to be private. There are scenarios where you 127 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,920 can use the open ones like GitHub, GitHub, circle, all 128 00:06:19,959 --> 00:06:22,279 that kind of thing. Most of them now, I think, 129 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,920 do allow for at least some actions or like CICD 130 00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:28,279 minutes or I forget exactly how it's metered. I think 131 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,199 on GitHub it's tide of the number of actions or 132 00:06:30,199 --> 00:06:33,720 the number of minutes. I forget how much for private repositories, 133 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,279 but it's often quite limited. Unless you're on a public repository, 134 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,560 so that could be a reason to change. You're like, Okay, 135 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,639 we have this heavy duty workload. It has to be 136 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,920 private for some reason, so either we need to take 137 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:46,839 get hub a bunch of money, or we need to 138 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,639 move it onto something in house like Jenkins or get 139 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,680 lab that's managed internally. But really that's it. That's the 140 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,600 only differentiation that I make because all my stuff is 141 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,560 in make files anyways. So I can be on GitHub, 142 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,199 I can be on Jenkins, be anywhere because it's called 143 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:03,680 colin make, you know, like make tests or whatever. Then 144 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:04,160 there we are. 145 00:07:04,439 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 3: So my simple answer is use whatever's easiest to get 146 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,759 started with. And if you're using GitHub, that probably means 147 00:07:10,759 --> 00:07:12,759 to get hub actions. Pre using git lab it probably 148 00:07:12,759 --> 00:07:15,959 means to get lab CI. If you're using Bitbucket, it 149 00:07:15,959 --> 00:07:19,160 probably means Bamboo. If you're I don't know when it 150 00:07:19,199 --> 00:07:21,439 would ever mean Jenkins. I can't think of a reason 151 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,839 to start using Jenkins unless you're already using it. So 152 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,560 do you? Uh, Maybe you just want to become a 153 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:32,600 Maybe you like pain and like to learn old systems 154 00:07:32,639 --> 00:07:35,079 because it feels fun, like, you know, get a Commodore 155 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,360 sixty four at the same time, why don't you. 156 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: You can on a Commodore sixty four? 157 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,879 Speaker 3: Can you? I'm sure you can't, but it sounds like 158 00:07:43,879 --> 00:07:45,759 a good project. I think I might have to learn 159 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:51,480 Jenkins and Commodore sixty fours now. So that's my short answer. However, 160 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,560 So that's what that usually means. If somebody takes that 161 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,639 at face value, that probably means using get hub actions 162 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,160 because it's it's easy. Most people use get hub their 163 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,120 coporate actions. However, I think get how Actions is actually 164 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,240 a really bad tool. It feels like a version zero 165 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:09,360 point six of get lad ci, you know, it feels 166 00:08:09,399 --> 00:08:11,199 like it has a lot of rough edges. Still, it's 167 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:14,720 not really intuitive to use yet. The one killer feature 168 00:08:14,759 --> 00:08:17,800 it has over get lad Ci is is this sort 169 00:08:17,839 --> 00:08:21,120 of pre bundled ability to just PLoP in other people's code, 170 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,160 what do they call it their marketplace. You can just 171 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,639 you know, choose an action from some random person off 172 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:29,079 the street and start running it. It also strikes me 173 00:08:29,079 --> 00:08:33,960 as really dangerous. It's like it's like n PM for 174 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,000 for get houb actions and who wants that? Really? Right? 175 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: I just picked up the Helm release from GitHub Actions. 176 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:45,080 There's I don't know what the doctor doctor builds push 177 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,120 like that's the that's all I'm doing. 178 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:53,519 Speaker 3: So if you don't care about security. 179 00:08:53,279 --> 00:08:55,919 Speaker 1: Well see no, if you care about security, I still 180 00:08:55,919 --> 00:08:57,919 think you should be hosting it in house. That's I 181 00:08:57,919 --> 00:08:58,639 think that's well. 182 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:01,519 Speaker 3: There's different aspects of security though, I mean, yeah, I 183 00:09:02,039 --> 00:09:04,000 mean it depends how much you care about security, right, 184 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,840 But I mean if you don't care about security and 185 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:08,559 you want easy then maybe get have actions is fine 186 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,639 if you don't have to edit them yourself. If you 187 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,720 need to edit them yourself, then the learning curve goes 188 00:09:12,799 --> 00:09:15,679 up really quickly compared to just picking something from the 189 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:21,039 at least and Yammel and and more than that. I mean, 190 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,399 JavaScript isn't the hard part. It's it's the format and 191 00:09:24,639 --> 00:09:26,600 the way the different actions interact with each other and 192 00:09:26,639 --> 00:09:30,159 trying to tie puzz them together. So if you need 193 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,799 something more more customized, I think get lab CI is 194 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,840 far easier to use and get actions for simple things, 195 00:09:36,879 --> 00:09:38,320 either any of them will work. I mean, if you're 196 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,039 just writing a cell script, you can do that anywhere now. 197 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:42,759 But if you need something more complicated, I feel like 198 00:09:42,799 --> 00:09:45,360 get lab is easier. That part of that's probably because 199 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,799 I've been using it. Longer, so I have the mental 200 00:09:47,799 --> 00:09:49,879 model better in my head. But I've heard many other 201 00:09:49,879 --> 00:09:51,440 people say the same that they feel like get lab 202 00:09:51,759 --> 00:09:54,720 CI is more mature product and get have actions that 203 00:09:54,759 --> 00:09:55,840 probably won't be true forever. 204 00:09:55,919 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: I explicated, like you have to build for a bunch 205 00:09:58,039 --> 00:10:00,639 of different hardware, so you have like really complic matrix 206 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,519 builds because I'm just running make tests like the time, 207 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:05,600 like make tests the doctor build and that's. 208 00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:07,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, if that's all you're doing, you're you're pretty good 209 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,879 to go. If you're trying to deploy to Kubernetes at 210 00:10:09,879 --> 00:10:12,000 the same time, you know, if if you want to 211 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,320 automate your deployments to Kubernetes or to Heroku or to whatever, 212 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,840 then to Firebase, then you have other things that need 213 00:10:19,879 --> 00:10:22,399 to be done. You need to integrate your your authentication 214 00:10:22,519 --> 00:10:24,399 with those things. So you know, there's a certain number 215 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,399 of complex steps that need to happen. If you start 216 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,440 to do interstep dependencies, things get complicated very quickly. In 217 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,360 other words, say you have five repositories and they each 218 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,480 film an artifact, and then whatever one of those is updated, 219 00:10:37,639 --> 00:10:40,360 you rebuild a master artifact that takes you know, those 220 00:10:40,399 --> 00:10:42,639 libraries and compiles of together the single thing and then 221 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,519 deploys it. So things like that they can start to 222 00:10:44,519 --> 00:10:47,240 get complicated quickly. And no doubt you can do any 223 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:48,919 of these things with any of the tools. It's a 224 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,240 question of how difficult. And this is why, going back 225 00:10:52,279 --> 00:10:55,279 to Will's earning point, if you already have this working, 226 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,000 for God's sake, don't redo it. 227 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:03,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about these like really specialized CICD tools 228 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,080 that I'm starting to see pop up. So we were 229 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,399 talking a bit before the show, as we do before 230 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:10,639 we press record, about this tool that I'm using called Spacelift, 231 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,759 which is I think it's kind of supposed to be 232 00:11:12,799 --> 00:11:16,200 like terraform Cloud, except hopefully hopefully less expensive for me 233 00:11:16,279 --> 00:11:18,519 and my wallet. But no, no, I'm kidding, Like it 234 00:11:18,519 --> 00:11:20,320 looks good, but it has these sort of like managed 235 00:11:20,399 --> 00:11:23,679 terraform environments, and it's very specifically for people doing terraforms 236 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,240 with care about security and policies and maybe building different 237 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,159 terraform modules and also protecting your like your stacks as well, 238 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,840 so you can insert these policies to you know, say 239 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,399 don't kill it if this happens, or kill it if 240 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,120 this happens. Like these kind of things that are very 241 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,519 specific to deploying infrastructure, and I think now GitHub has 242 00:11:42,519 --> 00:11:45,720 one maybe for JavaScript or for CI like you know, 243 00:11:45,799 --> 00:11:47,519 like I don't, I don't know, but I do feel 244 00:11:47,519 --> 00:11:49,000 like it's kind of a trend to see these more 245 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,720 very specialized CICD services pop up for particular frameworks and 246 00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:56,039 code tools and things. Are you guys seeing that too? 247 00:11:56,519 --> 00:11:59,159 Speaker 2: I haven't, but I'm the work I'm I've been on 248 00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:03,840 stainly has been pretty generic work, you know, not anything 249 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,879 specific that sounds like it's pretty pretty siloed to address 250 00:12:07,879 --> 00:12:10,600 a specific use case. And I can imagine if you're 251 00:12:10,639 --> 00:12:13,440 in that use case, you're feeling that pain. But if 252 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,200 you're not in that use case, then you probably don't 253 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,120 know that it exists. 254 00:12:17,639 --> 00:12:21,399 Speaker 3: So I have not used any specific tools like that, 255 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,840 but I've definitely used things that are intended to plug 256 00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:29,559 into an existing CICD tool or pipeline for specific needs, 257 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,360 you know, simple things. Sonarchy was an example, or depending 258 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,279 on the Textec you're using, you might have specific linters 259 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,960 for your for your language or your tool set. You know. 260 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,159 We had a guest on if you want to go 261 00:12:40,399 --> 00:12:43,559 talking about doing this sort of analysis for Kubernet's manifests 262 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,320 and you know, so that would be a tool that 263 00:12:45,399 --> 00:12:48,440 you could plug into any CICD pipeline, whether it's get 264 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,840 hub or get lab or genkins or whatever. So I've 265 00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:52,480 used a lot of those, and you know, so you 266 00:12:52,519 --> 00:12:55,120 sort of build up your pipeline with all these different tools. 267 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,600 Some of those sometimes are are more sasas than like 268 00:12:59,799 --> 00:13:02,600 a tool one that I've used is called coke co 269 00:13:03,039 --> 00:13:05,360 or other co covered tools. Cover alls is not the 270 00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:08,480 one where they just do like reporting of your test 271 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,639 coverage stats, but they usually have a thin hook into 272 00:13:12,639 --> 00:13:16,559 your CICD tool that reports the stats with a mainline 273 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,120 tool or over a STAPI or something like that, and 274 00:13:19,159 --> 00:13:21,559 then you log into their web interface to see all 275 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,559 the fancy reporting you do. So that's kind of a 276 00:13:23,639 --> 00:13:26,440 hybrid solution there. You know, it's a stable one tool, 277 00:13:26,519 --> 00:13:28,960 but it hasn't hooked into your existing thing. I think 278 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,559 what you're talking about is more of a holistic thing 279 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:34,080 for a specific use case. So I'm not mistaken, And 280 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,360 it sounds like it more maybe applies more to like 281 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,679 a low code or no code type of product, or 282 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,200 maybe not product, but like problem solving. I don't know how, 283 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,200 I don't know if I understand exactly what you're saying. 284 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: What I'm seeing is a lot of enterprise companies that 285 00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:52,960 are having trouble hiring people or maybe just don't want 286 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,120 to hire, you know, like as many people as they need, 287 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,480 and are starting to outsource to these different agencies and 288 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:01,600 different services. So instead of hiring their own Terrorform expert, 289 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:04,559 they're going a Terraform cloud and signing up for whatever 290 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,200 the highest SLA plan is and getting some kind of 291 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,320 support through that. So I'm not even sure that it's 292 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,360 so much the software as it is about to support, 293 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,120 to be honest, you know, like when I'm actually looking 294 00:14:14,159 --> 00:14:16,000 at it, I'm like, ah, which way is that? So 295 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,399 I don't know. I don't know because I'm still pretty 296 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:20,080 new to these kind of things myself. I am checking 297 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,639 out Spacelift for some of my like for some of 298 00:14:22,679 --> 00:14:24,559 my stacks and things, and it does look like it 299 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,399 will be good, especially after I had a very expensive 300 00:14:27,399 --> 00:14:30,919 AWS bill a couple months ago last month that wasn't 301 00:14:30,919 --> 00:14:32,799 even a couple months ago. I've just got like, you know, 302 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,960 I'm still upset about that. So that's kind of what 303 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,080 made me start. That's what made start looking at this 304 00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:39,879 kind of thing, was that I had this really expensive AWS bill, 305 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,200 and I was like, oh, maybe I should make sure 306 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,759 my stacks are actually getting destroyed when I think they 307 00:14:44,799 --> 00:14:47,440 should be getting destroyed. And since I just had a 308 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,120 two thousand dollars AWS bill, maybe it would be worth 309 00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:51,919 me throughout a couple hundred bucks a months at it, 310 00:14:51,919 --> 00:14:54,440 because that's I mean two thousand that's ten months of 311 00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:57,679 spacelift while I'm looking at it. So I don't know, 312 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,039 I'm still figuring these things out too, Okay, anybody thought 313 00:15:01,039 --> 00:15:04,840 I had any answers? Answer is no, I don't. I'll 314 00:15:04,919 --> 00:15:06,440 just figuring along. 315 00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 3: I'm curious to hear what's CICD tools each of us 316 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,639 have used, and maybe just brief impressions, you know, if 317 00:15:12,639 --> 00:15:14,559 you liked incoins or not likedcons and why you know, 318 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:15,480 in a sentence or. 319 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: Two, I love and hate Jenkins. You know, Yeah, I've 320 00:15:19,399 --> 00:15:21,840 used it quite a bit. And the thing I love 321 00:15:21,879 --> 00:15:24,600 about it is you can do absolutely anything with it. 322 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,440 And the thing I hate about it is you can 323 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:31,120 do just absolutely anything with it. So I like, yah, yeah, yeah, 324 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,519 I had a scenario. I know this is longer than 325 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:36,879 my two sentences, but I'm gonna do it anyway. That 326 00:15:37,679 --> 00:15:40,240 a few years back, I was working with a company, 327 00:15:40,399 --> 00:15:43,440 and I think this ties into your statement about which 328 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,600 c ICD you know do the simple one. We had 329 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:50,759 one We were moving this application from Heroku to AWS 330 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:55,320 and Heroku has their own pipeline tool that works really, 331 00:15:55,399 --> 00:15:59,000 really slick, and I wanted to in moving to ABS, 332 00:15:59,039 --> 00:16:01,759 I wanted to make sure that we didn't lose any features, 333 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:06,000 and so we went with Jenkins. And the scenario was, 334 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,879 you know, you would write your code, you would push 335 00:16:08,919 --> 00:16:12,120 it up, you would run the tests, all pretty straightforward stuff. 336 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,559 But then when you opened up a poor request, we 337 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,720 would create a poll request environment, so we would spin 338 00:16:18,799 --> 00:16:24,559 up the Docker containers, provision the databases, create the load balancers, 339 00:16:24,639 --> 00:16:27,960 create the route fifty three DNS entries, all of that 340 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,440 stuff so that anyone who was reviewing your code had 341 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,679 a working environment to see what the actual end product 342 00:16:35,759 --> 00:16:39,000 looked like. And then when that poor request was either 343 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:42,039 merged or closed, it tore down that environment, and that 344 00:16:42,159 --> 00:16:45,200 kicked off the build process to build the Docker images, 345 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:50,679 pushed those up into the ABS Docker registry, deployed to 346 00:16:50,759 --> 00:16:54,360 the staging environment, and all of that kind of stuff. 347 00:16:54,399 --> 00:16:56,480 So it was pretty There was a lot of moving 348 00:16:56,559 --> 00:17:00,679 pieces and nothing really had the ability to do that 349 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,559 without writing your own Python accessing the photo three library. 350 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,880 And so that's where Jenkins came in handy, because you 351 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,799 could just give it this application or this code that 352 00:17:13,039 --> 00:17:15,880 accessed Boto three and it would do it, and then 353 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,960 you could secure that with im permission, so that Jenkins 354 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,839 only had access to what it needed to, which was 355 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,160 still a lot, because it had access to S three 356 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:28,160 and rds and firegate and Route fifty three and the 357 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:29,799 load balancers and all that kind of stuff. 358 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: That is cool, though Human in the loop, well, I 359 00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:34,480 like it, yeah, And. 360 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,160 Speaker 2: The part that I hate about that is when you 361 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,039 get to that level of Jenkins, you know, you write 362 00:17:39,039 --> 00:17:42,240 your Boto three stuff, and then you have a Jenkins 363 00:17:42,319 --> 00:17:46,079 DSL that knows how to call and access that, and 364 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,039 when there's an error in it, you get a Java 365 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,079 stack stack trace, so a Java stack trace that refers 366 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,960 to a DSL that refers to a Python Vota three library, 367 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,440 so that any error messages you got were just adsbsolutely 368 00:18:00,519 --> 00:18:02,200 worthless fascinating. 369 00:18:02,519 --> 00:18:04,559 Speaker 3: Have you used any others or is that really the 370 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:05,880 main one you used? 371 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 2: Will That's the only one I've really gone deep with. 372 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,200 I've used a Circle, CI and Travis and get lab, 373 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,960 but all for just really a high level basic CiCe stuff, 374 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:17,400 nothing that extensive. 375 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: My first introduction to CSD was a Travis. I was 376 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,680 working at a company several years ago where we actually 377 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,359 hosted our own on prem Travis Travis Enterprise. That was 378 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,319 the first time I used CI, and I really, I 379 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,000 really liked it. I later came to prefer the get 380 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:36,359 lab model, which maybe Travis has changed since then, but 381 00:18:36,759 --> 00:18:39,559 get lab has the concept of pipelines and Travis didn't 382 00:18:39,559 --> 00:18:42,160 really have that concept. So I prefer the pipeline approach. 383 00:18:42,559 --> 00:18:44,359 In fact, if somebody was an asked me, how would 384 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,279 you choose a good CI tool, I would say that 385 00:18:46,319 --> 00:18:48,079 could be the first thing. Look, so does it have 386 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,359 pipeline support because it doesn't have to. I don't know 387 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,480 if Jenkins does. I don't know if he uses that model. 388 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:55,839 Okay it does. Yeah, well that that model is available. 389 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,599 Like you just log into Jenkins and point and click 390 00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:02,039 your way tout success. You don't get the pipeline model, 391 00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:04,880 but there is if you write your own pipelines, and 392 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,000 that's what we did there. There was a we created 393 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,319 a Jenkins library that executed the pipeline and then each 394 00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:14,720 development team had a YAML file in their repo where 395 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,400 they could specify how many running containers they wanted, the 396 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,559 memory and CPU allocated to each doctor container, and for 397 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,880 auto scaling, could specify your metrics of whether you scaled 398 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,200 on memory, CPU, or latency and what that value was. 399 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,079 I've also used Circle a little bit on one of 400 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:34,960 the open first projects I help with, so I don't 401 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,920 have extensive experience. My main experience with Circle is that 402 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,599 I find the dashboard confusing, but that's probably just because 403 00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:44,039 I haven't used it enough. I've also used Codeeship at 404 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:45,759 a company several years ago. I didn't really like that 405 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:48,039 one very much. We actually migrated from Codehip to Travis. 406 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:53,200 We broke all the rules that we'll talk about it. Wait. 407 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,799 Actually at that company, at that company we had we 408 00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:57,839 were using like three different SI tools, like each team 409 00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:00,440 would pick their own, and so it was more of 410 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,480 a consolidation thing than it was a real migration. And 411 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:05,599 it wasn't doing anything complicated. It was doing what what 412 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,160 Dillian talked about, basically, make test and make build, and 413 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,680 that's kind of all it did. So I also used, 414 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,519 of course get hub actions and get lab. I talked 415 00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:15,359 about both of those. There's probably few others I've dabbled with, 416 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,119 but those are the ones I had the most experienced 417 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,119 with and and the main reason I like get lab 418 00:20:20,759 --> 00:20:23,559 is because, well two reasons really. The first is I 419 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,839 like the pipeline model, and second is I like to 420 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,519 get lab interface in general. I feel like it's a 421 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,160 more complete solution in gethub, although GitHub is catching up 422 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,559 since la Kasoft's acquisition, they've been adding a lot of 423 00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:37,200 new features. But yeah, so that's that's my experience. 424 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 1: I think. Yeah, I've used all the kind of all 425 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,160 the big names. I've used drinkings when I've used something 426 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,759 in house. Travis, I think Travis was the first one 427 00:20:44,759 --> 00:20:46,720 that I used for like a big open source project 428 00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:49,720 because we were using Travis and that's it was there 429 00:20:49,759 --> 00:20:51,279 and we're I think it was it was probably one 430 00:20:51,279 --> 00:20:52,880 of the first, like I mean, I kind of think 431 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,839 it was one of the first like publicly available ones 432 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,519 right that was free, that was available for open source projects. 433 00:20:57,559 --> 00:20:59,359 So we were on that, and then I think we 434 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,640 switched to Start because the Circle guys were throwing some 435 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,799 cash at open source projects, and you know open source projects, 436 00:21:05,839 --> 00:21:07,839 we always need the cash. So we're there. And then 437 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,279 actually I've been kind of, i suppose breaking all the 438 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:12,759 rules by kind of rolling a lot of my own 439 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:15,000 solutions lately, which is that I do a lot of this. 440 00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:16,880 I do a lot of like human in the loop 441 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,079 and things that specifically need a really specific, almost editorial 442 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,319 workflow where there has to be at some point a 443 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,759 person who approves something, and they can't like they're scientists usually, 444 00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:29,880 so they can't you can't give them like a stack trace, 445 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,119 all right, Like that's not okay, we can't give normal 446 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,000 people stack traces, all right, Like we're we're not doing 447 00:21:35,039 --> 00:21:37,880 that over here. So you know, the one thing that 448 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:40,119 I've really been liking lately is to use I'll actually 449 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,440 use airflow Patchy Airflow, which is it's a workflow orchestration engine, 450 00:21:44,599 --> 00:21:48,039 so it's I mean, it's there. It builds basically data pipelines. 451 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:51,519 But then because it's built on Python and flask, which 452 00:21:51,599 --> 00:21:54,039 is a like a web framework that I'm familiar with, 453 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,559 it's really easy to build like plug ins and additional 454 00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:59,440 interfaces and things like this. So let's say I have, like, 455 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,799 you know, one of these pipelines that's generating tools, and 456 00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:03,880 then one of those tools and then another tool will 457 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,640 generate some kind of QC metrics on this pool. At 458 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,359 some point a person has to make a decision on this, 459 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,759 and sometimes it's a part of the data engineering workflow, 460 00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:16,160 and sometimes it's a part of a software workflow that is, 461 00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:19,359 you know, still informed by a data engineering workflow because 462 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,079 the software has to produce correct data. So it's all 463 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,039 kind of there's a lot of gray area between the 464 00:22:24,079 --> 00:22:27,119 data engineering and the softlow the software engineering, is what 465 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,599 I'm saying. So I've really been liking that lately because yeah, 466 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,039 because again I can give like people who need actual 467 00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:36,599 like web interfaces, I can give them pretty easily web interfases. 468 00:22:36,839 --> 00:22:39,200 But at the same time, it's all just really integrated 469 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,039 into the workflow, and I can automate as much as 470 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,960 can be automated. So normally it will look like, you know, 471 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,400 we have like three steps, and then there will be 472 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,640 some point where human has to approve something. The human 473 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,000 will get like a yes no kind of form, and 474 00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:55,359 then that feeds back to airflow and we'll either pick 475 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,640 off the rest of the workflow or cancel it, depending 476 00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,720 on how that how that ends up going. If I'm 477 00:22:59,759 --> 00:23:01,640 not doing anything that's complicated, though, I tend to just 478 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,680 use githab actions because it usually is just like Make builds, 479 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:05,240 Make tests. 480 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 3: And the problem with the problem with starting with whatever 481 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,559 it's easy because it's not complicated, is six months later 482 00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:18,319 it's complicated, and then you're married to that tool. But 483 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,200 that's the problem with like make files versus basscripts versus 484 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,119 Pearl or Python or something like that, like, oh, it's 485 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,000 just simple, I'll just use Make tests, and then six 486 00:23:26,039 --> 00:23:28,640 months later you have the six thousand line make file 487 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,480 and nobody can understand it. And I should have done 488 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:31,240 this in Python. 489 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm quite ready to give up my 490 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,039 Make files, Jonathan. 491 00:23:35,039 --> 00:23:39,079 Speaker 3: I don't think that's I like me, although I like Make, 492 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,640 but I have done some really nasty make stuff before, 493 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,119 stuff I would these days never do again. I think, 494 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,200 I mean, I have no problem. Yeah, I'm pretty sure 495 00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:48,160 Make is touring complete and it should not be. 496 00:23:53,799 --> 00:23:55,519 Speaker 1: Files from like cold Dead Hands. 497 00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 3: No. 498 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,519 Speaker 2: No, I think there's a really good lesson hidden in there. Though. 499 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,519 One of the keys I think to making successful pipelines 500 00:24:04,039 --> 00:24:08,079 is to wrap all of your individual steps up into 501 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,480 a smaller command and then just have the pipeline call 502 00:24:11,599 --> 00:24:13,839 that command. So when you look at the pipeline, it's 503 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,440 like it does these five things, and now those five 504 00:24:17,559 --> 00:24:20,640 things might represent a bunch of other smaller tasks, but 505 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,519 I think that's still more easily understood by someone coming 506 00:24:25,559 --> 00:24:28,960 in to work on it. Then if you have a 507 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,480 CICD pipeline that has six hundred individual steps in. 508 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: It, well, that's what I like about air flows that 509 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,880 right out the gate you get a picture of the 510 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,519 directed a syclick graph, so you know step one, step 511 00:24:42,559 --> 00:24:45,240 two depends upon step one, which if that's successful, it 512 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:47,319 goes here. If it's not successful, it goes here. Like 513 00:24:47,319 --> 00:24:48,960 it gives you a picture of that right in the 514 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,960 dashboard so you can see it, and then you can 515 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,480 actually click on each individual part and it like colors 516 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,240 it based on whether or not it was successful and 517 00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:56,680 this kind of stuff. So I just find it much 518 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,559 more intuitive for like a person to deal with rather 519 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,640 than a any of the other CICD work cloths. I mean, 520 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,160 I'll use them because they're there and they're free, but like, 521 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,680 if I'm going to build anything complicated, most of the 522 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,480 time these days, I just go build with an airpluck. 523 00:25:09,799 --> 00:25:12,079 Speaker 2: I think get lab does a fairly good job that 524 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,079 of visualizing the pipeline and the you know how how 525 00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:18,279 to build or how the pipeline is going to run, 526 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,400 which steps are dependent and which one failed? 527 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:24,039 Speaker 1: Oh my goal trial. Okay, I don't actually think your 528 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:26,079 lab is probably one of the ones I haven't only used. 529 00:25:26,279 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 3: One thing I really like about get lab is that 530 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,359 it so easy to start your own runners. I run 531 00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:33,319 some private projects that aren't eligible for their free, open 532 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,759 source unlimited minutes or whatever, and so every month I 533 00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:38,799 get this thing. If you here, I don't know how 534 00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:41,799 many minutes or four hundred minutes or whatever, upgrade now 535 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,160 for like twelve dollars or whatever it is. I'm like, no, 536 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,039 I just I have a Hetzner dot d account for 537 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:49,400 I think three dollars a month, and if run a 538 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,640 get lab runnerund there and I connect to that, and 539 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,400 so for three bucks a month, I have unlimited minutes. 540 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,000 It's super easy to do that. I haven't logged into 541 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,160 that server for probably two years's probably been hacked by now, 542 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:05,640 I don't know it's mining block chain. I think get 543 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,559 hub Actions is going to be adding support for the 544 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,880 maybe they have already added the ability to run your 545 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,440 own runners too, but I mean that's also really nice 546 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,400 if you have special hardware you need to be using, 547 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,960 if you need a GPU to run your tests or something, 548 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,480 or you want to run on an ARM system or 549 00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:22,519 Raspberry Pie or something like that, that's something that that's 550 00:26:22,519 --> 00:26:24,160 the reason we didn't discuss at the beginning. If you 551 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,200 have special needs like that, you're going to be limited 552 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,240 in which CIC tools you can use. Like try to 553 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:32,559 see I believe offers Linux and MAAC. Maybe they do 554 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,680 Windows now I'm not sure. But if you need to 555 00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,400 run your code against Windows on Windows servers or a 556 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,759 Raspberry Pie or whatever you're gonna have, you're gonna be 557 00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:42,319 limited and the choices you have. So that's one nice 558 00:26:42,319 --> 00:26:43,759 thing about being able to run your own runners that 559 00:26:43,839 --> 00:26:45,799 get love gives you, and I think ge hub actions 560 00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:48,720 either does or soon will. You can set up your 561 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,279 own runners to access your hardware encryption devices, or your 562 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,039 MPEG encoders or whatever random kind of custom stuff you 563 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,240 might need, So that that's something to think about too. 564 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, specifically, if you're building iOS apps, I've dealt with 565 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,519 that quite a bit, and that's a huge pain because 566 00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:10,480 it's got to be done on a Mac. So you're 567 00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:13,839 either using a Mac that you have physical access to 568 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,079 as a runner, or there are some third party services 569 00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:22,440 that will integrate with your CICD and do the build 570 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:24,559 for you, but all the ones I'm aware of are 571 00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:26,319 are relatively expensive. 572 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:27,039 Speaker 3: Yeah. 573 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:29,279 Speaker 1: I got into like three D modeling a little bit 574 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,920 is my quarantine hobby, and that immediately made me think, like, 575 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,039 how do video games like when people make video games, right, 576 00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:38,119 because they're the point is is that you're supposed to 577 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,319 be able to release them on like all the platforms 578 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,720 now right, Like you see a video game, it's not 579 00:27:42,799 --> 00:27:45,440 just like on PlayStation or Nintendo or whatever. It's it's 580 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,000 on like everything. It's on. It's for games, it's for 581 00:27:48,039 --> 00:27:50,240 the switch, it's for all of them. So I always 582 00:27:50,279 --> 00:27:52,160 kind of wonder, like, well, how do they do their testing? 583 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,279 I kind of find a whole lot on it. It 584 00:27:54,319 --> 00:27:56,319 seems like every it's still like a very closely guarded, 585 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,319 secreted video games. I did see a little bit that 586 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,240 like Unity uses AWS because AWS have actual Mac like instances, 587 00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:05,200 Like you can run Windows instances and you can run 588 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,079 Mac instances. But for the rest of them, I don't know, 589 00:28:07,519 --> 00:28:10,160 just build and hope it runs and people can install it. 590 00:28:10,319 --> 00:28:13,319 Speaker 2: If you listen to the comments from the gamers. Then, yeah, 591 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720 that's the exact strategy. Build it and let your customers 592 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:17,640 figure it out. 593 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: Yes, your customers need the acceptance testing. That's my business 594 00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:24,519 model too. You know what. 595 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,279 Speaker 2: I haven't done. That's a really good point. I haven't 596 00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:31,519 done any work in the game industry. But yeah, there's 597 00:28:31,599 --> 00:28:35,160 a lot of compiling for different platforms that happens there. 598 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,960 And I don't know what to compile time or to 599 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,200 build time for your average game is. 600 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. Let's get pretty involved, Like I feel like, 601 00:28:43,359 --> 00:28:45,839 just like so really small scenes and like small little 602 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,079 games and unreal and that's it's backed by C plus plus, 603 00:28:49,079 --> 00:28:51,160 so you actually have to go through and compile everything, 604 00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:53,839 and even for just like a you know, something really small, 605 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:54,680 it can take a while. 606 00:28:55,039 --> 00:28:59,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, any game you download these days is it seems 607 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,759 like it's a minimum of five gigs. A lot of 608 00:29:01,839 --> 00:29:04,160 that's video assets, I would assume, So I don't know 609 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,920 if those are involved in the compiling process or if 610 00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:10,759 you can compile your video assets once and then just 611 00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:13,279 compile the run time for each specific platform. I don't 612 00:29:13,279 --> 00:29:14,119 know how that works. 613 00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 3: Next week on adventures and game development. 614 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 2: Right, let's see who we know that works in that 615 00:29:20,319 --> 00:29:21,640 industry that we can get on the show. 616 00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:24,079 Speaker 1: No, there was a couple of plug ins and like 617 00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:27,359 they weren't they weren't very well developed for different platforms, 618 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,960 and I know, like an f C plus plus that 619 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,559 I was like, huh, maybe this should be my new calling. 620 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,759 Just go and then fix all the platforms and set 621 00:29:33,839 --> 00:29:37,079 up the CICD and make plugins that actually compile to 622 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,400 the different the different platforms and sell them on the marketplace. 623 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,519 And what am I doing all this data science stuff for? Anyways? 624 00:29:43,559 --> 00:29:45,160 And then I figured out, you know, very quickly, that 625 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,920 it wasn't that simple hopes and dreams, most as most 626 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:51,720 things tend to be, It was not that simple. Yeah, 627 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,319 I think if you have like specific HERD, if you 628 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:57,640 have specific hardware or specific security considerations, you should really 629 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,920 like look into your choice and not be nearly as 630 00:30:00,079 --> 00:30:02,759 asual is I tend to be with like, well this 631 00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:04,799 one looks good today. You know, it's not the action 632 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,799 that I need this morning, So we'll use that, you know, 633 00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:11,279 maybe actually go through and do your research and think 634 00:30:11,319 --> 00:30:13,759 about it a little bit and see which one kind 635 00:30:13,759 --> 00:30:15,640 of or if any of them support the different platforms 636 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:16,160 that you need. 637 00:30:16,279 --> 00:30:18,039 Speaker 2: Unless you have a coupon because we know if you 638 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:20,279 have a coupone, you're using it. 639 00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: Oh so you know that's one thing with thought. I 640 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,559 signed up for the free prile of Spacelift and they 641 00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:28,880 immediately like they contacted me on like day, They got 642 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,839 me in a Slack connect group with them. They will 643 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,799 like call us if you're not call us, but you know, 644 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,680 like message us if we need anything. And I was like, oh, well, 645 00:30:35,759 --> 00:30:39,759 this is almost as good as a coupon. So do 646 00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:42,279 we have any like good projects for people starting off 647 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:44,200 and see ICD? I think you were talking about that 648 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,279 a little bit early, Terronic. 649 00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm actually gonna do a course probably starting on 650 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,400 April about this. I'm going to walk people through, so 651 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,160 stay tuned. I'll give them more details as it approaches. 652 00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:00,960 But the concept for my course is I intend to 653 00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:05,519 walk people through publishing an app. Maybe it maybe you 654 00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:07,599 build a PHP app or or something, or if you 655 00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:09,200 haven't built one, we get to see this work press 656 00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:14,240 or react some react to do NBC or something like that. Yeah. Yes, 657 00:31:14,279 --> 00:31:16,440 to take a simple app that uses the database and 658 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,119 deploy it to Kubernetes using CICD with the sort of 659 00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:23,799 review environment that will talk about, so you can every 660 00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:26,680 time you create a ProQuest, it'll pop up this temporary 661 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:28,640 environment you can play around with, do your testing on, 662 00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:30,680 and then when you merge it will teare it down 663 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,920 to it away. So I think that's that's a really 664 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,759 good way to start. Pick a simple app if you've 665 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:37,599 written one. If you haven't written one, you can just download, 666 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,319 like I said, to do NBC or something like that, 667 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,480 some sort of test app or work press or whatever, PHP, 668 00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:45,680 my ad Man, anything like that, anything that's an app 669 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,519 that at a web or basis of a place to start, 670 00:31:47,559 --> 00:31:51,160 and just deploy it somewhere and deploy automatically. I don't 671 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,839 mean like type cupit, cuddle whatever, you'll do that in 672 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,480 the process, but get it automated so that when whenever 673 00:31:57,559 --> 00:32:00,559 you commit, you run your tests, and when you hit 674 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,240 merge at automatical ploys. Which tool you use is less 675 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,680 important than just getting that process done. So I'll probably 676 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,039 do the course of get lab to CEI, but I'm 677 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,440 going to try to keep it as generic as possible 678 00:32:09,519 --> 00:32:12,799 and simple Bash commands so that anybody who doesn't want 679 00:32:12,799 --> 00:32:15,400 to use a good lab can apply the same knowledge 680 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,279 to GitHub actions or to genkins or whatever other tool 681 00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:18,640 they want. 682 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree that's. Yeah, the act of taking 683 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,519 something from code to deployed is a huge learning experience 684 00:32:26,519 --> 00:32:30,839 for somebody interested in getting getting into DevOps. And another 685 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,119 key point that you mentioned there is if you don't 686 00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:34,839 know how to write code, or if you haven't built 687 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,240 an application, that's not a blocker because in the software 688 00:32:39,279 --> 00:32:41,680 engineering world, like one of the most common things for 689 00:32:41,799 --> 00:32:44,319 learning a new language is to create a to do apps. 690 00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:46,359 So if you go to GitHub and search for to 691 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,319 do apps, you're going to find thousands of them that 692 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,599 you can download that meet those criteria of having a 693 00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:57,640 web user interface and a database back end and just 694 00:32:57,759 --> 00:32:58,920 use that exactly. 695 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. I would also add try to get at least 696 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,240 familiar with the idea of matrix builds, which is where 697 00:33:04,599 --> 00:33:06,759 you want to kind of build things with different options, 698 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:08,359 even if it's kind of you know, you're sort of 699 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,440 artificially putting it in there. So an example of that 700 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,880 would be you take your you take your to do 701 00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:16,759 app and you install it sent hosts, Ubuntu an Alpine, 702 00:33:17,039 --> 00:33:19,839 and you do that through doctor containers or however you're 703 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,559 going to do that. But that would be three variants 704 00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:23,920 of the same package. And I'm sure that you know 705 00:33:24,039 --> 00:33:26,119 like things will come off along the way there and 706 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,839 then you'll kind of you'll kind of learn about that 707 00:33:27,839 --> 00:33:28,720 process as well. 708 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:31,079 Speaker 3: That's a really good thing. If you're building a shared 709 00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:33,599 library and you don't know who's going to be using it, 710 00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:35,599 you know you want to make sure it works on Mac, 711 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,880 Windows and Linux, for example, and you want to make 712 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,640 sure it works on three different versions of Linux, then 713 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,880 that's exactly the time when those matrixes are matrices are 714 00:33:46,319 --> 00:33:46,799 are called for. 715 00:33:47,839 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: Oh well, does anybody else have anything to add or 716 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,079 should we just go to picks? 717 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: Just do some pics every week? 718 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,559 Speaker 1: One of us, all right, Donald, who wants to go 719 00:33:57,599 --> 00:33:59,519 for astronomers? Not me? 720 00:33:59,640 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 3: I'm not. 721 00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:04,279 Speaker 2: I've got I'm ready this week. So I'll stall for 722 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:07,039 time and share way more details about my picks than 723 00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:09,159 what I should to give Jonathan an extra few minutes. 724 00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:12,559 So I've got two picks this week. First one is 725 00:34:12,599 --> 00:34:16,320 a movie called The Blacksmith and the Devil. It's on Netflix, 726 00:34:17,039 --> 00:34:21,519 and its super cool movie about a surprise no school 727 00:34:21,519 --> 00:34:25,000 over alert here. It's about a blacksmith and he captures 728 00:34:25,039 --> 00:34:29,000 this demon that he thinks is responsible for all the 729 00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:31,239 trauma and turmoil in his life. And he's got this 730 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,400 demon captured and he tortures him. But then there's this 731 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,239 really cool plot twist at the end that has you going, oh, dude, 732 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,320 right on, let's go. And so I won't tell you 733 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,000 any more than that to keep from ruining the suspense. 734 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:47,440 But it's a really cool movie. The Blacksmith and the 735 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,679 Devil really well done. Only on Netflix as far as 736 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,920 I know, but I only watch about maybe two or 737 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,079 three movies a year, and this was one of them. 738 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,559 So it was it was cool. It was a good 739 00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:03,159 couple of are spent. The other thing for my pick 740 00:35:03,559 --> 00:35:08,840 this week is these eye drops called Acuity. So like 741 00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:11,280 as the as the old man in the group, I 742 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,639 feel obligated to tell you all that as you get older, 743 00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:19,239 your eyesight's going to go bad and you need like 744 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:22,800 a close yeah, Like you need a close circle of 745 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,239 friends who will call you out so when you're heading 746 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,599 into the store with your sunglasses on top of your 747 00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:33,199 head and your eyeglasses on your face, that they stop 748 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,440 you and go, no, no, no, we don't do that 749 00:35:35,519 --> 00:35:37,960 around here. So you need that group of friends in 750 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,559 your life. But otherwise you can get these eye drops 751 00:35:40,599 --> 00:35:43,480 that just came out in fall of twenty twenty one. 752 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,159 If you're like me, whenever you got old and your 753 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,559 eye your eye drop, eyesight for reading went to hell. 754 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:53,599 These eye drops are specifically made for that. So you 755 00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:56,039 put these eye drops in and then for like the 756 00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:59,440 next four hours, my vision is like it was ten 757 00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:04,679 years ago. And so it beats wearing glasses, or more importantly, 758 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,400 it beats trying to figure out where I left my glasses. 759 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:09,719 So those are my two picks for the week. Do 760 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,320 you ever wonder where you left the eye drops so far? No, 761 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,159 I've been using the eye drops for about a week now, 762 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,079 so we'll see what the long term impact of that is. 763 00:36:19,119 --> 00:36:22,239 But right now, I just keep them in the bathroom 764 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,000 and whenever I get up and get ready for work, 765 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,320 I'll drop them in, and then around lunchtime I'll go 766 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,159 and put the next set in because they only last 767 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:31,239 for about four hours. 768 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,559 Speaker 3: I haven't pick ready, now go for it. So I 769 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,880 just finished reading a book. It's an old book, but 770 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,679 it's a classic book. It's a good book. It's been 771 00:36:39,679 --> 00:36:41,800 made into two movies. That's how old it is. It's 772 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,880 been around long enough to make two movies out of it. 773 00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:46,039 That's all quiet on the Western Front and It's a 774 00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:49,960 fictionalized story of a German soldier during World War One, 775 00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:53,000 and it really just tells the story of more the 776 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:56,119 feeling of combat in World War One and the trenches 777 00:36:56,559 --> 00:36:59,519 more than like a military story like this. There's no 778 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:02,559 story conquest or whatever. It's here's what it was like 779 00:37:02,639 --> 00:37:05,920 to live in the trenches and deal with death and 780 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,960 with the fear of death and not enough food and 781 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,440 that sort of stuff. So it's a really good book. Obviously, 782 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,639 it's I mean, probably everybody's heard of it. You don't 783 00:37:13,639 --> 00:37:16,440 want to read or listen to the book. Wat's the movie. 784 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:18,960 There was one that came out in the twenties, I 785 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,760 think black and white, and then it was remade again 786 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,760 in the nineteen seventies. So I me recommended nice cool. 787 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to pick The Wheel of Time. It 788 00:37:27,159 --> 00:37:29,599 is one of my favorite book series. I reread it 789 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:31,960 every couple of years, and I wanted rereading it again 790 00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:34,960 because I tried to watch the Amazon series of The 791 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,159 Wheel of Time and I couldn't quite get through that. 792 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:40,320 But I just decided to go back to the source 793 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,920 material and go back to the books reread those. It 794 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,159 really is like one of my favorite series. There's a 795 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:47,320 couple there in the middle that you could probably skip 796 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,519 and like, you know, you would be fine in terms 797 00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:52,519 of plotline and things happening and all that kind of stuff. 798 00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:54,320 Just get the cliff notes. But I don't know, they're 799 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,599 really great. They're one of my favorite series. Go for It. 800 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,079 So there's that, and then I think on tech pics, 801 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:03,159 I've been playing with this program called Hissora, which is 802 00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,119 like as it's one of these web frameworks, you like 803 00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:07,840 throw it on top of the database and then it 804 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,320 just kind of spins up all your APIs. But one 805 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,599 kind of thing is that it has subscriptions and real 806 00:38:12,679 --> 00:38:15,400 time events, and another nice thing is you can also 807 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,920 pull in like additional APIs, so if you have if 808 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,199 you have like a series of micro services, you could 809 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:22,840 use to have to kind of tie them all together 810 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,199 and then it could handle, you know, throwing your authentication 811 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,760 tokens and stuff like that around. So I've just been 812 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,559 playing a little bit with that. It's been fun. So's 813 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,800 it's a good program. I recommend it. Go see it. 814 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,880 I think it's got lots of stars on GitHub. And yeah, 815 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,480 that's it for me. All right, guys, Well that's a wrap. 816 00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:40,519 Thanks and talk to you next week, all right, See 817 00:38:40,519 --> 00:38:41,639 you guys,