WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:02.439
<v Speaker 1>Hello, it is Ryan, and we could all use an

2
00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:04.759
<v Speaker 1>extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to

3
00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.679
<v Speaker 1>make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,

4
00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:10.400
<v Speaker 1>counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That

5
00:00:10.519 --> 00:00:12.919
<v Speaker 1>is why I'm such a big fan of Chumba Casino.

6
00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:16.399
<v Speaker 1>Chumpbuck Casino has all your favorite social casino style games

7
00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:20.559
<v Speaker 1>you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.

8
00:00:20.719 --> 00:00:23.079
<v Speaker 1>That's your brighten your day low actually a lot, so

9
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.519
<v Speaker 1>sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck

10
00:00:26.559 --> 00:00:27.399
<v Speaker 1>Casino dot com.

11
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.399
<v Speaker 2>Nope, necessary daidherehabit I lost terms conditions eighteen plus.

12
00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.560
<v Speaker 3>With the Lucky land Slots, you can get lucky just

13
00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:34.560
<v Speaker 3>about anywhere.

14
00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:38.240
<v Speaker 4>It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the

15
00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:40.200
<v Speaker 4>weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a

16
00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:43.479
<v Speaker 4>while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's

17
00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:46.159
<v Speaker 4>just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest

18
00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:48.200
<v Speaker 4>you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and

19
00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:49.320
<v Speaker 4>start getting lucky.

20
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.000
<v Speaker 3>Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you

21
00:00:53.119 --> 00:00:56.759
<v Speaker 3>feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by Law

22
00:00:56.880 --> 00:01:00.479
<v Speaker 3>eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website Ford Tasks.

23
00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:04.560
<v Speaker 1>Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use an

24
00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:06.840
<v Speaker 1>extra bright spot in our day, couldn't we just to

25
00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:09.760
<v Speaker 1>make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,

26
00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:12.480
<v Speaker 1>counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That

27
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:15.040
<v Speaker 1>is why I'm such a big fan of Chumpa Casino.

28
00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Chumpback Casino has all your favorite social casino style games

29
00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:22.640
<v Speaker 1>you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.

30
00:01:22.799 --> 00:01:25.200
<v Speaker 1>That's your brighten your day, Lowe actually a lot so

31
00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.599
<v Speaker 1>sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck

32
00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Casino dot com.

33
00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:31.719
<v Speaker 2>No proscess, every day ripod where everybody lost in terms

34
00:01:31.719 --> 00:01:32.920
<v Speaker 2>of conditions eating plus.

35
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:37.560
<v Speaker 5>Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck. I'm

36
00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:40.599
<v Speaker 5>gonna make him an offer he can't refuse. Were family

37
00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:45.040
<v Speaker 5>canoli's and spins mean everything. Now you want to get

38
00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:49.200
<v Speaker 5>mixed up in the family business, Introducing The Godfather at

39
00:01:49.280 --> 00:01:53.280
<v Speaker 5>Chumpacasino dot com. Test your luck in the shadowy world

40
00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:54.640
<v Speaker 5>at the Godfather slot.

41
00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.640
<v Speaker 4>Someday I will call upon you to do a service

42
00:01:57.680 --> 00:01:57.920
<v Speaker 4>for me.

43
00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:00.799
<v Speaker 5>Play the Godfather now at chumpuckeno dot com.

44
00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.120
<v Speaker 3>Welcome to the family vdW group. Now perds necessary if

45
00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:06.560
<v Speaker 3>we were premitted by loss he terms and conditions eighteen plus eighty.

46
00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:19.240
<v Speaker 6>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

47
00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:22.360
<v Speaker 6>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

48
00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:29.719
<v Speaker 6>written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every

49
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:33.439
<v Speaker 6>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

50
00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:38.080
<v Speaker 6>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,

51
00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:41.520
<v Speaker 6>journalist and author Dan Zupanski.

52
00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:51.159
<v Speaker 4>Good Evening.

53
00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.039
<v Speaker 2>In the late summer of nineteen sixty nine, the nation

54
00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.159
<v Speaker 2>was transfixed by a series of gruesome murders in the

55
00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:03.039
<v Speaker 2>hills of Los Angeles. Newspapers and television programs detailed the

56
00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:06.520
<v Speaker 2>brutal slayings of a beautiful actress twenty six years old

57
00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.919
<v Speaker 2>and eight months pregnant with her first child, as well

58
00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:12.960
<v Speaker 2>as a hair stylist, an heiress, a business man, and

59
00:03:13.039 --> 00:03:16.159
<v Speaker 2>other victims. The city of angels was plunged into a

60
00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:19.039
<v Speaker 2>nightmare of fear and dread. In the weeks and months

61
00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:22.479
<v Speaker 2>that followed, law enforcement faced intense pressure to solve crimes

62
00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:26.319
<v Speaker 2>it seemed to have no connection. Finally, after months of

63
00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:30.319
<v Speaker 2>dead ends, false leads, and near misses, Charles Manson and

64
00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:34.039
<v Speaker 2>members of his family were arrested. The bewildering trials that

65
00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:38.560
<v Speaker 2>followed once again captured the nation and forever secured Manson

66
00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:43.000
<v Speaker 2>as a byword for the evil that men do. Drawing

67
00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:47.800
<v Speaker 2>upon deep archival research and exclusive personal interviews, including unique

68
00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:53.560
<v Speaker 2>access to manson family parole hearings, former federal prosecutor in

69
00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:57.280
<v Speaker 2>Fox News legal analyst Lis Wheel has written a propulsive,

70
00:03:57.400 --> 00:04:01.240
<v Speaker 2>page turning historical thriller of the rhymes and manhunt that

71
00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.719
<v Speaker 2>mesmerized the nation, and in the process she reveals how

72
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:08.199
<v Speaker 2>the social and political context that gave rise to Manson

73
00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:11.520
<v Speaker 2>is eerily similar to our own. The book that we're

74
00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:14.919
<v Speaker 2>featuring this evening is Hunting Charles Manson, The Quest for

75
00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:17.959
<v Speaker 2>Justice in the Days of Helter Skelter, with my special

76
00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:22.759
<v Speaker 2>guest Liz Wheel and Kitlyn Rother. Welcome to the program,

77
00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:25.199
<v Speaker 2>and thank you very much for greeting this interview. Liz

78
00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:26.959
<v Speaker 2>Wheel and Kitlyn Rother.

79
00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.920
<v Speaker 7>Id Am just wanted to let you know that Lese

80
00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:36.480
<v Speaker 7>had a personal emergency and she may or may not

81
00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:38.680
<v Speaker 7>be able to join us part way through if you

82
00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:41.519
<v Speaker 7>allow that during this kind of broadcast.

83
00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:46.720
<v Speaker 2>Sure sure if she she just calls in, we'll cotect

84
00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:50.199
<v Speaker 2>her immediately. So welcome to the program the book, so

85
00:04:50.680 --> 00:04:57.199
<v Speaker 2>we're good with me talking absolutely, absolutely, And as fans

86
00:04:57.199 --> 00:05:00.399
<v Speaker 2>of the program, we'll know you've been on many times

87
00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:03.680
<v Speaker 2>with your books, so we're not new to the book.

88
00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:05.759
<v Speaker 8>Now. Is it eleven, it's twelve.

89
00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.959
<v Speaker 2>It's quite a few times, it's quite a few times.

90
00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:10.319
<v Speaker 2>All of your books, I would believe we've covered. I

91
00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.560
<v Speaker 2>would believe. So, yeah, and here we are with number twelve,

92
00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:19.199
<v Speaker 2>so it must be yes, amazing, Thank you, thank you

93
00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:22.480
<v Speaker 2>for coming on. And let's let's get right to this.

94
00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:27.680
<v Speaker 2>For all the books that have written about Manson and

95
00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:33.879
<v Speaker 2>Diane Lake published one last year, what was the purpose.

96
00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:34.759
<v Speaker 6>For writing this book?

97
00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:40.600
<v Speaker 2>What did you hope to give the fans, for the people,

98
00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:43.839
<v Speaker 2>what was what was left to say? What was the purpose?

99
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:48.160
<v Speaker 7>Well, that's the challenge. This is what this is the

100
00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:51.319
<v Speaker 7>biggest case ever really when you look at murder cases,

101
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.639
<v Speaker 7>it's the most notorious. Like you said, he becomes Charles

102
00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:59.759
<v Speaker 7>Manson became the icon for evil. So we wanted to

103
00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:02.560
<v Speaker 7>advanced the story though as much as we could, because

104
00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:06.160
<v Speaker 7>you know, the book that everybody says is you know,

105
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:10.879
<v Speaker 7>sort of the authoritative version Helter Skelter that was published

106
00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:15.120
<v Speaker 7>in nineteen seventy four. So there's been many, many years

107
00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:19.600
<v Speaker 7>since then that you know, much new information has come out,

108
00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:24.319
<v Speaker 7>and so Lisa and I wanted to advance this story

109
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:27.639
<v Speaker 7>as much as we could and use new information to

110
00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.920
<v Speaker 7>not only go over what people thought they knew from before,

111
00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:36.160
<v Speaker 7>but to also introduce new evidence. When I say new evidence,

112
00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:41.759
<v Speaker 7>I mean a new a fresh look at new information

113
00:06:42.759 --> 00:06:46.360
<v Speaker 7>that would go back and give a fresh perspective and

114
00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:49.480
<v Speaker 7>a new perspective on many of the details that had

115
00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:53.000
<v Speaker 7>come out previously. And so that's why those parole hearings

116
00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:58.600
<v Speaker 7>were very important, because these family members who you know

117
00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:00.720
<v Speaker 7>are still in prison and are trying to get out

118
00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.360
<v Speaker 7>of prison. They have become more and more forthcoming about

119
00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:10.639
<v Speaker 7>details that they were previously you know, unwilling or you know,

120
00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:13.959
<v Speaker 7>I don't know if they were willing at the time,

121
00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:15.879
<v Speaker 7>and Manson said, no, you can't, but I think you know,

122
00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:17.959
<v Speaker 7>at the time they were brainwashed and they were under

123
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:21.560
<v Speaker 7>his control still, and during the trials they did not testify.

124
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:27.319
<v Speaker 7>So not only were they under his influence, they didn't

125
00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:29.519
<v Speaker 7>really get a chance to say anything. And so you know,

126
00:07:29.560 --> 00:07:34.720
<v Speaker 7>there are some people today who still claim that you know,

127
00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:36.839
<v Speaker 7>that they want to get out and you know, Manson

128
00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:39.079
<v Speaker 7>didn't kill anyone, and they're just saying these things that

129
00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:39.439
<v Speaker 7>they can.

130
00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:40.120
<v Speaker 8>Get out of prison.

131
00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.920
<v Speaker 7>But there are details that they've said that really add

132
00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:48.519
<v Speaker 7>a much clearer picture, a more comprehensive picture of what

133
00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:50.720
<v Speaker 7>was really going on in the dynamic in that family.

134
00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:52.639
<v Speaker 7>And that's what we presented in this book.

135
00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:00.360
<v Speaker 2>Now, especially intriguing is you say these the new parole hearings,

136
00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:04.879
<v Speaker 2>the subsequent parrole hearings after Helter Skelter was obviously published,

137
00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.560
<v Speaker 2>and that's what people know of. You offer even more

138
00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:14.399
<v Speaker 2>intimate details of the actual murders themselves, and not only

139
00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:17.079
<v Speaker 2>the ones that were covered in Helter Skelter, but over

140
00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:19.920
<v Speaker 2>and beyond. And I say that for the audience that

141
00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:22.800
<v Speaker 2>even if you thought the details were chilling before, even

142
00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:27.319
<v Speaker 2>more chilling, even more detailed based on the information that

143
00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.639
<v Speaker 2>you've done in this book, but especially from those parole hearings,

144
00:08:30.759 --> 00:08:33.240
<v Speaker 2>am I correct from that information?

145
00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:35.480
<v Speaker 7>What I guess what I'm saying is there are things

146
00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:39.720
<v Speaker 7>that did not come out of the mouths of these women,

147
00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.480
<v Speaker 7>for example, until like a couple of years ago. So

148
00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:51.039
<v Speaker 7>for example, Patricia Krimlincole in her twenty and sixteen parole

149
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:57.320
<v Speaker 7>hearing for the first time, made an intimate partner battery claim. Now,

150
00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:00.600
<v Speaker 7>you know, you hear a lot about Oman and you know,

151
00:09:00.679 --> 00:09:02.320
<v Speaker 7>had sex with these women and there was a lot

152
00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:05.159
<v Speaker 7>of LSD and you know they were just you know,

153
00:09:05.320 --> 00:09:08.480
<v Speaker 7>it was the sixties and you know, free love and

154
00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.519
<v Speaker 7>all that. Well, no, not just that he be you know,

155
00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:15.799
<v Speaker 7>he controlled them by fear and intimidation and violence. So

156
00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:19.960
<v Speaker 7>she came out and told stories about how, you know,

157
00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.639
<v Speaker 7>he and I don't remember if this all came out

158
00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:24.639
<v Speaker 7>in twenty sixteen, but I'm just saying that was when

159
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.279
<v Speaker 7>that official claim was made, which was given a name,

160
00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:31.759
<v Speaker 7>and that defense wasn't even a defense at the time

161
00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.720
<v Speaker 7>that these trials happened. It came out years later. You know,

162
00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:40.000
<v Speaker 7>the spousal battery kind of you know defense where you know,

163
00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:42.200
<v Speaker 7>he beat me and so I was just protecting myself

164
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.679
<v Speaker 7>that kind of thing. She feared for her life and

165
00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.399
<v Speaker 7>she feared you know, repercussions if she didn't do what

166
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:50.559
<v Speaker 7>he said. And so that was her claim, and so

167
00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:54.600
<v Speaker 7>the the Parole Board actually took it under advisement. They

168
00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:57.519
<v Speaker 7>went back and they did some investigation for a few months.

169
00:09:57.559 --> 00:09:59.279
<v Speaker 7>They came back and they said, yes, we find that

170
00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:01.200
<v Speaker 7>this is true, but you know, you still can't get

171
00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.879
<v Speaker 7>out of prison, and it's still not of you know,

172
00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:04.399
<v Speaker 7>enough of.

173
00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:06.399
<v Speaker 8>A reason for us to let you out.

174
00:10:06.799 --> 00:10:09.960
<v Speaker 7>So my point is there's new information that has actually

175
00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:12.639
<v Speaker 7>come out only in the last you know, few years,

176
00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.360
<v Speaker 7>even about what actually happened back then, so you didn't

177
00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.200
<v Speaker 7>have a complete picture. We feel like we've filled in

178
00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.080
<v Speaker 7>a lot of those holes to be more comprehensive so

179
00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.840
<v Speaker 7>that you have a better understanding of why did those

180
00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:28.159
<v Speaker 7>women stay why not only why did they kill for him?

181
00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.240
<v Speaker 7>Why did they stay in that group? You know, what

182
00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:34.279
<v Speaker 7>power did he have over them? And how did he operate?

183
00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:41.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as it explains exactly how it was done, how

184
00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:46.000
<v Speaker 2>they first were lured or influenced, and the kinds of people.

185
00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.039
<v Speaker 2>He was a experienced con man, many years in prison,

186
00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:53.759
<v Speaker 2>and so he knew who was vulnerable, who he knew

187
00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:55.440
<v Speaker 2>who to pick on, didn't he right?

188
00:10:55.639 --> 00:10:57.039
<v Speaker 7>And not just women but men too.

189
00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Now, also, some of the highlights of this book

190
00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:05.720
<v Speaker 2>too are when I say highlights, but I mean the

191
00:11:05.759 --> 00:11:08.480
<v Speaker 2>whole book is a highlight. But some of the things

192
00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:12.120
<v Speaker 2>that you welcome that won't be found anywhere else is

193
00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:16.000
<v Speaker 2>that exclusive interviews with Jason Freeman, the son of Manson's

194
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:22.919
<v Speaker 2>first born Charles Mills Manson aka j White for people, right,

195
00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:27.200
<v Speaker 2>So and this his first wife is Rosalie Willis. What

196
00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:31.559
<v Speaker 2>kind of information and what kind of surprises and what

197
00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:35.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of information did you elicit from Jason Freeman and

198
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:36.440
<v Speaker 2>those interviews.

199
00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:39.840
<v Speaker 7>Well, when we were doing this research, one of the

200
00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:45.440
<v Speaker 7>areas I personally found really intriguing and at least it too,

201
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:48.320
<v Speaker 7>was what happened. Now? You know, we hear a lot

202
00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:51.559
<v Speaker 7>about his quote unquote family. Well, those are not his

203
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.960
<v Speaker 7>blood relatives. Those are people he troubled, souls he picked

204
00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:57.159
<v Speaker 7>up along the way. What about his real family? What

205
00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:00.840
<v Speaker 7>about the people who you know, were his people he

206
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:04.679
<v Speaker 7>married and the people the sons that he had turned off.

207
00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:05.519
<v Speaker 7>He had three sons.

208
00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:07.120
<v Speaker 8>He had.

209
00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:12.519
<v Speaker 7>Charles Manson Junior, who who he mentioned as Jay White,

210
00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:17.320
<v Speaker 7>who went on to have Jason Freeman with a woman

211
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:21.559
<v Speaker 7>who he was not married to, and actually initially tried

212
00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:23.919
<v Speaker 7>to claim that it wasn't his son and fought not

213
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:26.039
<v Speaker 7>to have to pay any kind of child support, and

214
00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:28.440
<v Speaker 7>she took him to court and there was a ruling.

215
00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.519
<v Speaker 7>And I have the court documents which basically show that

216
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:40.080
<v Speaker 7>this woman Sean Freeman Matt Charles Manson Jr. Who was

217
00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:42.600
<v Speaker 7>going by Jay White at the time in a small

218
00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:49.399
<v Speaker 7>town in Ohio, and he complained that his mother, you know,

219
00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.519
<v Speaker 7>had a boyfriend and I think maybe she was on

220
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:55.200
<v Speaker 7>her second husband by then, or a third husband. I mean,

221
00:12:55.879 --> 00:13:01.600
<v Speaker 7>because there was a White was his stepfather, and that's

222
00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:03.519
<v Speaker 7>why he has that last name. So she had moved

223
00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:06.360
<v Speaker 7>on already and moved on to someone else. And apparently,

224
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:10.279
<v Speaker 7>you know, he claimed that this stepfather or boyfriend beat him,

225
00:13:10.440 --> 00:13:12.399
<v Speaker 7>and you know, he was living on the streets, and

226
00:13:12.559 --> 00:13:15.159
<v Speaker 7>so he moved in with Sean, and then Sean was

227
00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.639
<v Speaker 7>already pregnant with somebody else's baby, but he hung in

228
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:24.240
<v Speaker 7>there and they they got pregnant too, and so then

229
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.720
<v Speaker 7>things kind of fell apart because he had some drug

230
00:13:27.799 --> 00:13:30.240
<v Speaker 7>and alcohol issues and he was still very young. But

231
00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:32.639
<v Speaker 7>the biggest problem that he was dealing with in the

232
00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:37.360
<v Speaker 7>seventies in the early seventies was that Charles Manson was

233
00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:39.919
<v Speaker 7>on trial and his picture was everywhere and they apparently

234
00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:42.879
<v Speaker 7>looked alike, and so everywhere he went. He went to

235
00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:45.320
<v Speaker 7>go get a job, actually, and he had a couple

236
00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.639
<v Speaker 7>of different Social Security cards and he had to keep

237
00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:51.960
<v Speaker 7>the one that had his real birth name on it,

238
00:13:52.039 --> 00:13:53.960
<v Speaker 7>and he had to use that one, so people actually

239
00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:57.600
<v Speaker 7>found out who he was, and so they just kept

240
00:13:57.639 --> 00:13:59.360
<v Speaker 7>beating him up. So he'd go to a bar and

241
00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:02.320
<v Speaker 7>he'd just get beaten up. There's a story in the

242
00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:06.279
<v Speaker 7>book where the bartender basically breaks a bottle over his

243
00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:10.840
<v Speaker 7>head and it's bleeding. You know, I mean, people they

244
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.600
<v Speaker 7>just they beat him up because he had the same name.

245
00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:18.279
<v Speaker 7>So he was very troubled also because he was trying

246
00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:21.960
<v Speaker 7>to reach out to Charles Manson and there was no response.

247
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.120
<v Speaker 7>So for many years he was tortured by that. And

248
00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:29.279
<v Speaker 7>he told Jason about that, and you know, after initially

249
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.279
<v Speaker 7>saying that it wasn't his kid, he still wanted to

250
00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:33.919
<v Speaker 7>see him and still wanted to talk to him. But

251
00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:36.960
<v Speaker 7>Sean tried to kind of keep them apart because she

252
00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:39.399
<v Speaker 7>didn't think it was good to hear for her son

253
00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:44.720
<v Speaker 7>to hear all about his father's obsession with, you know,

254
00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:47.159
<v Speaker 7>wanting to meet his father who was this notorious murderer.

255
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.279
<v Speaker 7>So maybe there's a lot of stories about that in

256
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:53.360
<v Speaker 7>the book, which I thought was pretty interesting. And what's

257
00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.679
<v Speaker 7>more interesting now, you know, we kept updating the book

258
00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.039
<v Speaker 7>as much as we could until the very last minute

259
00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:03.519
<v Speaker 7>while the battle over his Charles ham Manson's remains. What's

260
00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:06.600
<v Speaker 7>going on followed that every step of the way, but

261
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:09.080
<v Speaker 7>we had to ultimately there had to be a point

262
00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:11.000
<v Speaker 7>where we had to print the copies of the book.

263
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.679
<v Speaker 7>So I can't delay how many times that part was

264
00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:19.039
<v Speaker 7>rewritten because things kept changing. But Jason did actually turn

265
00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.799
<v Speaker 7>out to be a pretty newsworthy figure. So he was

266
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:27.720
<v Speaker 7>the one person that I managed to find and did

267
00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:31.039
<v Speaker 7>speak with him numerous times, and as I said, I

268
00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:32.799
<v Speaker 7>wanted to make sure he was who he said he was,

269
00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.600
<v Speaker 7>so I had him send me those documents from the

270
00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:41.159
<v Speaker 7>court showing his father's name on the court records, and

271
00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:47.679
<v Speaker 7>also ultimately his father ultimately committed suicide, and so, you know,

272
00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:50.320
<v Speaker 7>I just thought that that was important to show. These

273
00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:53.840
<v Speaker 7>are the ramifications not only of not only did Manson

274
00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.440
<v Speaker 7>have victims within his own family, these women who have

275
00:15:57.600 --> 00:15:59.919
<v Speaker 7>been in prison ever since then, he made kill other

276
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.440
<v Speaker 7>people by brainwashing them and convincing them to do it,

277
00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:06.159
<v Speaker 7>and it actually convinced them that it was their own idea,

278
00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.639
<v Speaker 7>and that was what they said for many years, that

279
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.679
<v Speaker 7>this this. You know, he had no responsibility for it

280
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.240
<v Speaker 7>because he wasn't there. He physically wasn't there, so he

281
00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.919
<v Speaker 7>had them believing that they did all this on their own.

282
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:23.799
<v Speaker 7>He wasn't there. They wanted to please him, and so

283
00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:27.720
<v Speaker 7>they all became his victims as well in a sense.

284
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.320
<v Speaker 7>I mean, I'm not taking sides with or expressing sympathy,

285
00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:33.399
<v Speaker 7>but I'm just saying this is how a cult works,

286
00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:35.879
<v Speaker 7>and that's essentially what the Manson family was was a cult.

287
00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:39.120
<v Speaker 7>So not only do you have those people in his wake,

288
00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:42.320
<v Speaker 7>you have the victims who were stabbed and mutilated and

289
00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.519
<v Speaker 7>shot by the family members, and then you also have

290
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:49.279
<v Speaker 7>his own blood family members, one of whom obviously committed

291
00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:53.679
<v Speaker 7>suicide because of all of this fallout, you know, genetically

292
00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:59.320
<v Speaker 7>and socially, culturally, you know it. It's sad all the

293
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:01.919
<v Speaker 7>way around. And I thought that was important to include

294
00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:04.319
<v Speaker 7>in the book, and I wish that I had been

295
00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:08.920
<v Speaker 7>able to track down Michael Brunner. He actually contacted me

296
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:14.000
<v Speaker 7>pretty recently on Facebook, because that's actually how I managed

297
00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:16.400
<v Speaker 7>to do some of my research, was to contact people

298
00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.039
<v Speaker 7>through to some of these secret groups on Facebook, and

299
00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:22.920
<v Speaker 7>you know, they all know, these people know each other,

300
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:24.240
<v Speaker 7>and there's still a lot of people who are still

301
00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:27.400
<v Speaker 7>very obsessed with this case. And anyway, he emailed me

302
00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:31.559
<v Speaker 7>and I just said, wow, I wish I had been

303
00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:34.599
<v Speaker 7>able to locate you earlier so that we could have

304
00:17:34.759 --> 00:17:36.680
<v Speaker 7>interviewed you for the book. And he said, well, that

305
00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.359
<v Speaker 7>was on purpose. So you know, he kind of lost

306
00:17:40.440 --> 00:17:43.680
<v Speaker 7>out of this last round in the estate battle, but

307
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:47.400
<v Speaker 7>he wanted to make sure that, you know, his father's

308
00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:52.359
<v Speaker 7>remains were not just scattered around for money, and that's

309
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.359
<v Speaker 7>essentially what's happening now, which you know, that's the way

310
00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:58.119
<v Speaker 7>after what happened in the book. But turned out that

311
00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.319
<v Speaker 7>Jason Freeman really was a very timely and topical story

312
00:18:01.400 --> 00:18:03.440
<v Speaker 7>all on his own. But you know, when I interviewed

313
00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:05.599
<v Speaker 7>him at the time, none of this had happened yet.

314
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:10.480
<v Speaker 7>So we managed to get good information from him before

315
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.000
<v Speaker 7>the spotlight got on him and before there was any

316
00:18:14.079 --> 00:18:16.759
<v Speaker 7>documentary you know, following him around and all that. So

317
00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:21.200
<v Speaker 7>I'm proud to say that that chapter happened before all

318
00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:21.920
<v Speaker 7>this other stuff.

319
00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.480
<v Speaker 2>So long answer to you, we have we have to

320
00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:31.000
<v Speaker 2>mention so just for those that Michael is the son

321
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:31.680
<v Speaker 2>of Mary.

322
00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:35.279
<v Speaker 7>Burner, all right, Yeah, Mary is the very first family

323
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:39.480
<v Speaker 7>member technically, the very first family member that Charles Manson

324
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.200
<v Speaker 7>met at Berkeley right after he was released from federal

325
00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:47.000
<v Speaker 7>prison in nineteen sixty seven. He met her apparently on

326
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.359
<v Speaker 7>the Berkeley campus where she was a librarian, and they

327
00:18:49.480 --> 00:18:54.759
<v Speaker 7>started living together. And Lynette from who everyone knows is Squeaky,

328
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:58.160
<v Speaker 7>she joined them pretty shortly thereafter, so she was number two.

329
00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.640
<v Speaker 7>And Mary quit her job to go on the road

330
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:10.440
<v Speaker 7>with Charlie and Lynette and got pregnant, and so Michael Brunner,

331
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.160
<v Speaker 7>who basically, you know, in Manson's view, the children did

332
00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:16.640
<v Speaker 7>not really belong to any one person. They were kind

333
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:20.039
<v Speaker 7>of it was a communal living situation, and it was

334
00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:24.880
<v Speaker 7>going to be a group kind of upbringing. So his

335
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.279
<v Speaker 7>name has changed a number of times. But ultimately, after

336
00:19:27.319 --> 00:19:30.200
<v Speaker 7>all this happened and his mother had to testify for

337
00:19:30.279 --> 00:19:33.599
<v Speaker 7>the prosecution to get immunity and what have you, and

338
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.400
<v Speaker 7>she lost basically control over her own child because the

339
00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:41.000
<v Speaker 7>child was taken from her and given to her parents.

340
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:44.720
<v Speaker 7>So he was brought up actually by his grandparents thinking

341
00:19:44.799 --> 00:19:46.680
<v Speaker 7>that they were his parents and that Mary was his

342
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:50.160
<v Speaker 7>sister for quite some time. And he knows the truth now,

343
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:53.440
<v Speaker 7>and he seems like a really nice guy actually, you know,

344
00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.400
<v Speaker 7>just from the emails. He seemed really to have the

345
00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.839
<v Speaker 7>right intentions, and you know, doesn't really seem to have

346
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.039
<v Speaker 7>a stomach for everything that's been going on with the

347
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.400
<v Speaker 7>you know, filling the ashes and what have you. It's

348
00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:09.559
<v Speaker 7>just kind of unfortunate.

349
00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:18.799
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. You also provide a more comprehensive understanding of

350
00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.799
<v Speaker 2>how the family's activities progressed how they began. You talk

351
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.720
<v Speaker 2>about the drug burns. I've read a little bit of this,

352
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:30.599
<v Speaker 2>but again this is more detailed. Again, more comprehensive. The

353
00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.039
<v Speaker 2>drug burns and the nighttime creepy crawlers when in preparation.

354
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:40.079
<v Speaker 2>This is a form of training of sorts, more detailed.

355
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:44.079
<v Speaker 7>People might know drug burns were training. I think the

356
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:48.200
<v Speaker 7>creepy crawley things probably were, But the training was more

357
00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:53.599
<v Speaker 7>at spawn ranch. So he had you know, these sessions,

358
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:58.079
<v Speaker 7>he had them working on, you know, building them up

359
00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:00.920
<v Speaker 7>and trying to get the fear out of them and

360
00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:03.079
<v Speaker 7>you know, showing.

361
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.599
<v Speaker 8>He had text teach a class on how to.

362
00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:09.240
<v Speaker 7>Stab somebody and do the most damage to human tissue

363
00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:12.480
<v Speaker 7>and and that sort of thing. So the training was

364
00:21:12.680 --> 00:21:16.079
<v Speaker 7>like trying to get rid of fear and to teach

365
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:21.440
<v Speaker 7>them that, you know, some really twisted ideas about you know,

366
00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:26.799
<v Speaker 7>fear and awareness and you know that you're actually helping

367
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:30.759
<v Speaker 7>somebody reach a I don't really understand it, to be honest,

368
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:34.119
<v Speaker 7>I somebody might differ with my interpretation because I I,

369
00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.599
<v Speaker 7>I honestly don't really understand this. But there was this

370
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:39.960
<v Speaker 7>whole crazy idea about fear and awareness and love and

371
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:43.240
<v Speaker 7>you know it it was it was very odd and

372
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:46.319
<v Speaker 7>that they were not real people that that that when

373
00:21:46.359 --> 00:21:50.759
<v Speaker 7>they were actually stabbing these people text Watson later told

374
00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:53.480
<v Speaker 7>the psychiatrists I was able to get a hold of

375
00:21:53.559 --> 00:22:00.400
<v Speaker 7>his uh psychiatric records that he he said, you know,

376
00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:04.720
<v Speaker 7>I didn't feel like they were real. I heard Charlie's

377
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.079
<v Speaker 7>voice in my head telling me what to do, and

378
00:22:07.839 --> 00:22:10.160
<v Speaker 7>you know, everybody was running around and to me, it

379
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:12.559
<v Speaker 7>sort of sounded like a cartoon in his head because

380
00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:16.559
<v Speaker 7>he's on hallucinogens, and he's been on hallucinogens for quite

381
00:22:16.599 --> 00:22:21.119
<v Speaker 7>some time, and so they basically found that he had

382
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:25.240
<v Speaker 7>organic brain damage and so he was out there, you know,

383
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.039
<v Speaker 7>stabbing and shooting everybody, and he said he was basically

384
00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.440
<v Speaker 7>making happy noises and grinting, and it just the whole

385
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:33.519
<v Speaker 7>thing was just surreal.

386
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:36.359
<v Speaker 8>The way with the horrible it was. It was very

387
00:22:36.440 --> 00:22:38.799
<v Speaker 8>difficult to have to dive.

388
00:22:38.680 --> 00:22:44.720
<v Speaker 7>Into this very violent mindset to get those scenes written.

389
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:49.400
<v Speaker 7>It was just well, really not pleasant to I don't

390
00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:54.519
<v Speaker 7>usually get involved with writing books that are this violent,

391
00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:58.279
<v Speaker 7>but that's we couldn't really, we couldn't avoid that in

392
00:22:58.400 --> 00:23:00.759
<v Speaker 7>this case, or it would not be telling the truth,

393
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:01.119
<v Speaker 7>you know.

394
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And it's it's it exposes the mindset which is

395
00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:11.960
<v Speaker 2>so important to not to understand this because it's beyond comprehension, right,

396
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:15.720
<v Speaker 2>don't understand what they were told. And like you talk

397
00:23:15.759 --> 00:23:19.640
<v Speaker 2>about this fear thing, fear will make us love more

398
00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:24.880
<v Speaker 2>and then with more fear more love. It's nonsensical. Nonsensical really, it.

399
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:27.559
<v Speaker 7>Really makes sense, you know. I mean, but but the

400
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.559
<v Speaker 7>thing was, you know, he gave him so much LSD

401
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.160
<v Speaker 7>and he told him this stuff, and they thought he

402
00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:35.240
<v Speaker 7>was some you know, mystic. You know, he was Jesus

403
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:37.759
<v Speaker 7>Christ and he was preaching and they were just going

404
00:23:37.839 --> 00:23:39.559
<v Speaker 7>to listen and they were going to do what he said.

405
00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:45.039
<v Speaker 7>And they want, you know, they wanted to shock the.

406
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:49.240
<v Speaker 2>World and they did, but very much like a cult,

407
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.200
<v Speaker 2>they had some of the girls not as compliant. And

408
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:57.319
<v Speaker 2>then so when this he when Charlie picked out the

409
00:23:57.480 --> 00:23:59.640
<v Speaker 2>people to do these murders. He picked out the people

410
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:02.480
<v Speaker 2>that were are not going to as you write, not

411
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:04.920
<v Speaker 2>going to disobey in any way. They were going to

412
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:06.920
<v Speaker 2>follow orders implicitly.

413
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:09.680
<v Speaker 7>But that's what he thought, I guess at the time

414
00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:13.680
<v Speaker 7>when he picked him. Yeah, but I mean Linda Kasabian

415
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:21.240
<v Speaker 7>did not follow all the directions, obviously, and she she left,

416
00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:24.720
<v Speaker 7>She left the scene, and she was outside just screaming stop,

417
00:24:24.880 --> 00:24:28.279
<v Speaker 7>you know, don't do that. And basically Susan Atkins is like,

418
00:24:28.319 --> 00:24:31.279
<v Speaker 7>it's too late, you know, and texts. Watson ignored her,

419
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:35.359
<v Speaker 7>and the next night Charlie told her to go kill

420
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:39.359
<v Speaker 7>some other person and someone she used to be involved with,

421
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:41.519
<v Speaker 7>I guess, and told her told her to go to

422
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.559
<v Speaker 7>this apartment and go kill this guy. And she purposely,

423
00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:49.839
<v Speaker 7>you know, pretended that it was the wrong apartment and

424
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.359
<v Speaker 7>the middle of the night and said, oh, no, it's

425
00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:56.599
<v Speaker 7>the wrong apartment. So I mean it, you know, they

426
00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:00.880
<v Speaker 7>some of them she said she couldn't do it, yeah,

427
00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:07.119
<v Speaker 7>and the other ones could so and Patricia Crenwinkle I read,

428
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.440
<v Speaker 7>I believe it was one of her transcripts from the

429
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.400
<v Speaker 7>Pearl Hearing. It might have been someplace else or an

430
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.440
<v Speaker 7>interview with her that she actually did go to the

431
00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:20.640
<v Speaker 7>guest house and there was you know, the caretaker was

432
00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:25.440
<v Speaker 7>in there, and she chose not to pursue that. She

433
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.240
<v Speaker 7>said she just was so tired by that point, she

434
00:25:28.359 --> 00:25:31.519
<v Speaker 7>didn't have anything left in her and said because she'd

435
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:40.519
<v Speaker 7>already stabbed Abby Abigail Folger, yeah, on the grass and

436
00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:42.720
<v Speaker 7>so and it had helped, you know, with all the

437
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:46.480
<v Speaker 7>other ones inside. So she was spent. And so that's

438
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:51.279
<v Speaker 7>the reason that William Garrison was still alive. He died recently,

439
00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:55.880
<v Speaker 7>but his life was spared because she just couldn't do anymore. So,

440
00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:01.599
<v Speaker 7>you know it, it's a very grizzly story.

441
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you have included a lot again, more details you'd

442
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.480
<v Speaker 2>be able to provide about murders that happened before and

443
00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:14.000
<v Speaker 2>after and we know of the you there has been

444
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:17.960
<v Speaker 2>talk at the trial you say there was nine victims

445
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:21.480
<v Speaker 2>potential other victims identified, but you said that even Bulagosi

446
00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:23.200
<v Speaker 2>at that time said there could have been up to

447
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 2>thirty five. And in this book you provide some other

448
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:32.440
<v Speaker 2>details about those other victims and their potential at least

449
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:35.440
<v Speaker 2>not up to thirty five, but other victims, other than

450
00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:38.240
<v Speaker 2>the nine that were registered or the quarterback.

451
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:40.839
<v Speaker 7>Right, we didn't have really the space in the book

452
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.680
<v Speaker 7>to go into as much of this as you know,

453
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:47.599
<v Speaker 7>I think we would have liked, but you know, because

454
00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:49.960
<v Speaker 7>it's not proven, because it never came out in court,

455
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:52.200
<v Speaker 7>and you know, it's a little problematic. But up and

456
00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:56.200
<v Speaker 7>down California, you know, the police in many places we're

457
00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:59.039
<v Speaker 7>trying to see if they had unsolved cases that were

458
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:02.359
<v Speaker 7>linked to the these family members. So you know, I

459
00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:04.400
<v Speaker 7>there's a there's a spot in the book where I

460
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:07.480
<v Speaker 7>kind of list some generically in a sentence or two.

461
00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:12.519
<v Speaker 7>There were and I don't remember, to be honest at

462
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:14.480
<v Speaker 7>this point without looking at the book, if even if

463
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.039
<v Speaker 7>they even ended up in that sentence, But I can

464
00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:21.160
<v Speaker 7>tell you what from my memory. There were two scientology

465
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 7>students in LA who were found. And the reason that

466
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:30.599
<v Speaker 7>a lot of these that they did name and the

467
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:33.480
<v Speaker 7>police did talk about and there was news coverage of

468
00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.359
<v Speaker 7>some of these, the reason they thought these were linked

469
00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:39.680
<v Speaker 7>was because they were stabbed so many times and that

470
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:44.519
<v Speaker 7>that was pretty usual and that's not you know, that's

471
00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:47.480
<v Speaker 7>not a common way to kill somebody. And this is

472
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:49.359
<v Speaker 7>at right around the same time, in the same general

473
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:56.160
<v Speaker 7>geographical area. But there was there was a those two

474
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:59.759
<v Speaker 7>students there were stabbed. God, I can't even remember some

475
00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:02.960
<v Speaker 7>like fifty times or something crazy like that. There was

476
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:08.920
<v Speaker 7>a I just did an interview with a documentary last

477
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:13.720
<v Speaker 7>week about the Marina Hobbe murder, which was in December,

478
00:28:14.279 --> 00:28:22.279
<v Speaker 7>late December of sixty eight, and she was seventeen and

479
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:27.440
<v Speaker 7>her body was found off Mulholland Drive against stabbed. And

480
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:33.200
<v Speaker 7>then there was Jane of number fifty nine, whose body

481
00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:39.720
<v Speaker 7>was found also off Molan Mulholland Drive, and that was

482
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:44.279
<v Speaker 7>in the following November and they didn't know who she

483
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:49.880
<v Speaker 7>was for forty six years. So yeah, that she was

484
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:55.480
<v Speaker 7>just pretty recently identified as ret Jervitsen and she was

485
00:28:55.599 --> 00:29:00.519
<v Speaker 7>dabbed one hundred and fifty seven times. So it's crazy,

486
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:04.920
<v Speaker 7>you know. But see, the thing is to me, you know,

487
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.519
<v Speaker 7>I didn't fight to put more than that into the

488
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:15.440
<v Speaker 7>book because sorry, I need some water, because they seem

489
00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:19.319
<v Speaker 7>tangential to me. I can't say for sure either way

490
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.400
<v Speaker 7>that they were Manson family victims or not. Yes, they

491
00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:25.039
<v Speaker 7>were in the same general area, Yes they were in

492
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:28.160
<v Speaker 7>the same timeframe. But Riete Jervidsen the time of that murder.

493
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:32.440
<v Speaker 7>Manson and the family members who did the other killings

494
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:36.279
<v Speaker 7>were all in jail, right, So I don't know about

495
00:29:36.319 --> 00:29:39.759
<v Speaker 7>text Watson when he was let go. Honestly, they were

496
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:46.160
<v Speaker 7>arrested in October, but if if anything, you know, he

497
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:49.880
<v Speaker 7>was probably in Texas by that point. So Bruce Davis

498
00:29:50.039 --> 00:29:52.440
<v Speaker 7>was still wandering around. And so you know, there are

499
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:54.519
<v Speaker 7>people who are still trying to put these you know,

500
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:57.559
<v Speaker 7>links together and say that these are related. But you know,

501
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.880
<v Speaker 7>part of the reason that they're doing that is because

502
00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:06.400
<v Speaker 7>Manson bragged to one of the ranch hands that there

503
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:10.240
<v Speaker 7>were as many as you know, thirty five victims. Susan

504
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:14.400
<v Speaker 7>Atkins and Leslie Van Houghton both mentioned the number of

505
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:18.279
<v Speaker 7>eleven murders. Now we still only know of nine for sure, right,

506
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.960
<v Speaker 7>so that's even two more. Then there's a guy out

507
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:24.880
<v Speaker 7>in the desert. His name is Paul Dosti. He's a

508
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.480
<v Speaker 7>retired Argist police sergeant who has made it his life's

509
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.519
<v Speaker 7>work essentially to use his cadaver dog, who has since

510
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:37.799
<v Speaker 7>passed away. His name was Buster, went out into the desert.

511
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:43.400
<v Speaker 7>And this is a dog trained to find not the recently.

512
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:44.920
<v Speaker 8>Dead, but the old dead.

513
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:50.359
<v Speaker 7>And they can smell these chemicals and these results were

514
00:30:51.480 --> 00:30:58.480
<v Speaker 7>confirmed actually by scientific devices developed by these these people

515
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:02.480
<v Speaker 7>and there this is all in the book too, who

516
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:05.079
<v Speaker 7>went out there and basically they were able to detect

517
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:11.680
<v Speaker 7>chemicals that are found in the earth from human decomposition.

518
00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:18.079
<v Speaker 7>So you know, obviously they've decompensated. It's been fifty years,

519
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:20.559
<v Speaker 7>but they are these these things are still in there.

520
00:31:20.599 --> 00:31:25.759
<v Speaker 7>And the dog alerted at five different places. This is

521
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:28.400
<v Speaker 7>where they were camping out and when they were finally

522
00:31:28.519 --> 00:31:33.200
<v Speaker 7>arrested near Barker and Myers Ranches in Dath Valley. And

523
00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:37.799
<v Speaker 7>so they're you know, Paul Dosti's pretty sure, and so

524
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:43.640
<v Speaker 7>it's his partner, our pad boss, that there are five

525
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:44.400
<v Speaker 7>bodies out there.

526
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:46.799
<v Speaker 8>These there are stories.

527
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.799
<v Speaker 7>About you know, young kids who were kind of hanging

528
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:57.200
<v Speaker 7>around the family and disappeared very oddly, suspiciously, didn't come back.

529
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:01.200
<v Speaker 7>So they're thinking that maybe two of them or two

530
00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:03.160
<v Speaker 7>of those, and who knows who the other three are.

531
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.319
<v Speaker 7>And then you know, and then there are others that

532
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:10.480
<v Speaker 7>are we've mentioned in the book as well that could

533
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:12.279
<v Speaker 7>be linked, may may or may not be, but there,

534
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:14.200
<v Speaker 7>you know, that's a number that's been out there, thirty

535
00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:17.039
<v Speaker 7>five and we don't know who the rest are, honestly,

536
00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:20.759
<v Speaker 7>so who knows? And Manson went to his grave basically

537
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.720
<v Speaker 7>denying killing anyone, so we may never know.

538
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:31.480
<v Speaker 2>You include the details about Gary Henman, a mussession friend,

539
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:35.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's important because it just shows the barbarity of

540
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.640
<v Speaker 2>this family to turn on somebody that they knew. And

541
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:42.720
<v Speaker 2>even through it is it's he almost thinks it's a

542
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:44.960
<v Speaker 2>joke or he's trying to talk these people into that

543
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 2>it's ridiculous what they're doing. But this is really chilling

544
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:54.680
<v Speaker 2>information about the murder of Gary Henman mm hms and

545
00:32:54.799 --> 00:33:02.200
<v Speaker 2>also Bernard Crowe too as well. Right, these are details

546
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:08.920
<v Speaker 2>that yeah, go ahead, Now these details didn't help where

547
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:11.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how is it a result that you've got

548
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:14.599
<v Speaker 2>Where did you get those results of those from the

549
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:19.559
<v Speaker 2>parole hearings or how did that research get you that information?

550
00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.920
<v Speaker 7>Well, what we did with this research is, you know,

551
00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:27.960
<v Speaker 7>we approached it like cold case investigators, and basically what

552
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:33.079
<v Speaker 7>was important was to try to say something different if

553
00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:35.359
<v Speaker 7>we could. You know, everyone's like, well, why Man's and

554
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.279
<v Speaker 7>why you know there's fifty books out there already, and

555
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.720
<v Speaker 7>I'm like, well, okay, normally when I do a book,

556
00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:44.039
<v Speaker 7>they're pretty new, and there may be one other book

557
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:46.400
<v Speaker 7>out there. You know, there's been a lot of news articles.

558
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:48.920
<v Speaker 7>So this really was a huge challenge to try to

559
00:33:49.000 --> 00:33:51.960
<v Speaker 7>do something different. So, you know, we purposely did not

560
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:55.079
<v Speaker 7>read Helter Skilter, so I don't want to be like

561
00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:00.039
<v Speaker 7>accidentally copying somebody else's stuff. So we just basically, I

562
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:03.039
<v Speaker 7>had to get all of the original source materials, so

563
00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:05.880
<v Speaker 7>so we could you know, look at it and review

564
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.280
<v Speaker 7>it and come up with our own conclusions and that way,

565
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:13.960
<v Speaker 7>you know, And I didn't didn't interview. We didn't interview

566
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:16.880
<v Speaker 7>Vincent Bugliosi because he was dead. And that's the other

567
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.760
<v Speaker 7>thing with the challenge of this the research in this case,

568
00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:25.639
<v Speaker 7>you know, we didn't have access, but it's it's kind

569
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:29.599
<v Speaker 7>of a miracle that have this much detail, to be honest,

570
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:34.119
<v Speaker 7>But I've had a lot of practice, and this was

571
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:38.480
<v Speaker 7>even a brand new approach because it was so difficult.

572
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:44.119
<v Speaker 7>The LAPD and the La County Sheriff's Department would not cooperate.

573
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:47.039
<v Speaker 7>I initially thought they were the Sheriff's department was going

574
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:49.920
<v Speaker 7>to let us look at They said they had thirty

575
00:34:50.039 --> 00:34:53.639
<v Speaker 7>boxes of you know, photos and reports and stuff that

576
00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:56.440
<v Speaker 7>I could come in with my coffee machine and start

577
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:59.079
<v Speaker 7>to work and then next thing you know, I'm county

578
00:34:59.159 --> 00:35:02.480
<v Speaker 7>council put the kebash on that, and I'm getting, you know,

579
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:05.320
<v Speaker 7>a call from a lieutenant saying no, sorry, no.

580
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.840
<v Speaker 8>I'm like, oh really, Oh I thought we were.

581
00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:10.440
<v Speaker 7>Gonna come, and it's like no, no.

582
00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:12.760
<v Speaker 8>So you know, that's a mystery to me.

583
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:16.079
<v Speaker 7>Why we're doing a historical book and we're trying to

584
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.199
<v Speaker 7>be accurate and thorough. Why can't we look at stuff

585
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.760
<v Speaker 7>that's sitting there. You know, I haven't had that problem

586
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.559
<v Speaker 7>with other cases I've written about. You know, I've got

587
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:29.719
<v Speaker 7>to judge, prosecutor whatever I need. You know, they'll talk

588
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:33.400
<v Speaker 7>to me. But in this case, people were either dead

589
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.960
<v Speaker 7>or they said no. So it was very, very difficult.

590
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:40.679
<v Speaker 7>So what ended up finally happening is I managed to

591
00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:44.320
<v Speaker 7>meet somebody one of these, like I said, these Facebook groups,

592
00:35:44.360 --> 00:35:46.599
<v Speaker 7>who said, hey, you know, you should try the DA's office.

593
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:50.360
<v Speaker 7>I never have gotten information from a DA's office unless

594
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 7>it was an ongoing trial or something. And then you know,

595
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.079
<v Speaker 7>they've got a case going and they want to help

596
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.599
<v Speaker 7>the media an author, you know that's they will, but

597
00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:02.679
<v Speaker 7>not after thet I've never really other than interviews. I've

598
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.599
<v Speaker 7>never thought to go to get documents or whatever, but

599
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.920
<v Speaker 7>in this case that's what that was. They were the

600
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:12.280
<v Speaker 7>keeper of the documents. So what I ended up getting

601
00:36:12.519 --> 00:36:17.440
<v Speaker 7>was some some discs of information, and they were basically

602
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:23.559
<v Speaker 7>all the exhibits in pictures which were not reproducible. They

603
00:36:23.599 --> 00:36:26.440
<v Speaker 7>were pretty bad. They were mostly xerox copies of photos

604
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.400
<v Speaker 7>and that sort of thing, but a lot of the stuff.

605
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:34.719
<v Speaker 7>And then there was like partial transcripts, partial grand jury transcripts,

606
00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:38.360
<v Speaker 7>partial trial transcripts. And the main problem is they were

607
00:36:38.360 --> 00:36:41.360
<v Speaker 7>all watermarked, which meant if you printed them out you

608
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:43.559
<v Speaker 7>would have big gaps on your paper, so we couldn't

609
00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:49.679
<v Speaker 7>use a copy of you know, regular printer. And they

610
00:36:49.719 --> 00:36:54.480
<v Speaker 7>weren't searchable either, so basically I couldn't do a keyword search,

611
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:58.079
<v Speaker 7>and they were not organized or indexed, and so there

612
00:36:58.159 --> 00:37:01.280
<v Speaker 7>was a massive number, you know, just I don't know

613
00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.800
<v Speaker 7>how many thousands and thousands and thousands of pages of

614
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.480
<v Speaker 7>trial transcripts, but a lot of them were missing. So honestly,

615
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.400
<v Speaker 7>this was the biggest challenge to try to make sense

616
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:16.679
<v Speaker 7>of all this and under deadline. But the Gary Hinman stuff,

617
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:22.800
<v Speaker 7>there was a lot of detail. Actually Mary Brunner testified

618
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:27.800
<v Speaker 7>to the grand jury, and she testified. I think she

619
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.639
<v Speaker 7>testified to the grand jury. I might be remembering that wrong,

620
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:32.559
<v Speaker 7>and I'm pretty sure, yeah, she was at the grand jury.

621
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:36.000
<v Speaker 7>And then she also gave interviews which were included I know,

622
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.320
<v Speaker 7>I'm sorry. The two detectives that interviewed her, they testified

623
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:41.800
<v Speaker 7>before the gran jury, and that's why I got a

624
00:37:41.840 --> 00:37:43.800
<v Speaker 7>lot of a lot of that. And then she also

625
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:50.719
<v Speaker 7>had an interview with what's his name, the original prosecutor

626
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.960
<v Speaker 7>who was taken off the case, Aaron. I can't remember

627
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:59.559
<v Speaker 7>his name anyway. There were so that on those various

628
00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:02.760
<v Speaker 7>discs from the DA's office, there were little treasure troves

629
00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:08.119
<v Speaker 7>of pretty detailed information, which then you know, we're able

630
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:12.199
<v Speaker 7>to craft into a scene which is pretty detailed and

631
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:15.400
<v Speaker 7>so and that way. You know, I didn't read anybody

632
00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:18.119
<v Speaker 7>else's book to say, you know that read that that's

633
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:20.079
<v Speaker 7>going to be very similar to so and so's book,

634
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.880
<v Speaker 7>because I don't I don't know how other people work,

635
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:26.360
<v Speaker 7>but that's you know, you take a lot of stuff

636
00:38:26.440 --> 00:38:28.920
<v Speaker 7>from a lot of places and you weave narrative narrative

637
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:32.199
<v Speaker 7>nonfiction together, and that's what we did in this case.

638
00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:36.519
<v Speaker 7>And so that was the product of that's the technique.

639
00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.760
<v Speaker 7>Thank god it was on those discs, I guess otherwise. Yeah,

640
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:46.079
<v Speaker 7>and Leth went to the parole hearing for tex Watson

641
00:38:46.159 --> 00:38:52.119
<v Speaker 7>and she met Gary Hinman's cousin. Yeah, so you know,

642
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:54.920
<v Speaker 7>we talked to her too for something you know, more

643
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:57.119
<v Speaker 7>current and a little bit more of the family background.

644
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:04.440
<v Speaker 2>You include right in the beginning of the book that

645
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:08.039
<v Speaker 2>Charlie's in Corcoran State Prison where he's spent the last

646
00:39:08.119 --> 00:39:11.280
<v Speaker 2>bunch of his years, thirty of his last years of

647
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.920
<v Speaker 2>all of his prison stint. But you offer that you

648
00:39:16.039 --> 00:39:21.400
<v Speaker 2>introduce a young woman at Charlie gives a name Star Manson.

649
00:39:22.360 --> 00:39:25.920
<v Speaker 2>Tell us a little bit about Afton Elaine Burton as

650
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.760
<v Speaker 2>a seventeen year old, and why you included this story,

651
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:32.000
<v Speaker 2>and what is included in this story in your mind,

652
00:39:32.480 --> 00:39:34.119
<v Speaker 2>what does it illustrate or demonstrate.

653
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:42.039
<v Speaker 8>Well, one of the sources that I found was.

654
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:47.239
<v Speaker 7>In the prologue there's a woman who's not named. I

655
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:50.360
<v Speaker 7>was able to interview her, and so she.

656
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:50.880
<v Speaker 8>Told me.

657
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:56.920
<v Speaker 7>Quite a bit about what happened that day, first person

658
00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:00.960
<v Speaker 7>eyewitnessed account. And the other last thing is when I

659
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:04.239
<v Speaker 7>wrote Lost Girls and interviewed John Gardner.

660
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:06.880
<v Speaker 8>This was sort of a weird.

661
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:14.440
<v Speaker 7>Thing that happened, but I arranged to go on a

662
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.320
<v Speaker 7>Saturday to interview John Gardner, who was in the same

663
00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:21.440
<v Speaker 7>unit as Charles Manson, and his mother told me that

664
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:25.559
<v Speaker 7>Charles Manson usually had visitors on a Saturday, So I

665
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:29.440
<v Speaker 7>purposely went on a Saturday to try to see if

666
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.679
<v Speaker 7>maybe Charles Manson might be in the visiting room when

667
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.000
<v Speaker 7>I went to go interview John Gardner, and they were

668
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:41.320
<v Speaker 7>actually friends for a while. In fact, Charlie was telling

669
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.039
<v Speaker 7>John Gardner, Hey, you know, you ought to sell some

670
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:47.039
<v Speaker 7>of your stuff online. You can make some money that way,

671
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:50.840
<v Speaker 7>some of your belongings or whatever. And that ended up

672
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:55.360
<v Speaker 7>turning into a whole thing where John Gardner autographed a

673
00:40:55.480 --> 00:41:00.880
<v Speaker 7>copy of Lost Girls, which caused all this commotion, and

674
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:03.360
<v Speaker 7>he did it on the page that was dedicated to

675
00:41:03.440 --> 00:41:06.679
<v Speaker 7>the victims, and it was just like, oh God, John Gardner,

676
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:09.760
<v Speaker 7>why did you do that? Honestly I did not, you know,

677
00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:11.920
<v Speaker 7>and it was being sold on a murder of billious site.

678
00:41:12.639 --> 00:41:16.960
<v Speaker 7>But basically they were friends. Charlie Manson had John Gardner

679
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:22.119
<v Speaker 7>read his mail and set and sign his name because

680
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:26.079
<v Speaker 7>Charlie had reading problems. I'm pretty sure just my layman's

681
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:30.159
<v Speaker 7>diagnosis that he probably had either dyslexy or some sort

682
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:32.519
<v Speaker 7>of reading disability because he wasn't really able to read.

683
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:38.159
<v Speaker 7>So we had other people. But anyway, I had actually

684
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:40.400
<v Speaker 7>been in that room. So I had this woman who

685
00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.800
<v Speaker 7>I interviewed, and I had already also been in that room,

686
00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:47.880
<v Speaker 7>So it was I was able to create this scene

687
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:54.760
<v Speaker 7>from you know, first person observations, and so we thought

688
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:57.679
<v Speaker 7>that that was an important scene because number one, it

689
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.280
<v Speaker 7>showed that even at his age, I think it's time

690
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.440
<v Speaker 7>he was with something like seventy nine years old. I

691
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:06.880
<v Speaker 7>think the day that that visit happened, and she was

692
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:11.400
<v Speaker 7>twenty seven, I think or twenty four, I can't remember,

693
00:42:11.960 --> 00:42:16.880
<v Speaker 7>twenty probably twenty four, but the huge you know, he

694
00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:19.760
<v Speaker 7>was more than three times age, right, So basically that

695
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.440
<v Speaker 7>was the point. And he was still able to influence

696
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:27.079
<v Speaker 7>young women even with the way he looked, you know,

697
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:30.039
<v Speaker 7>and I saw pictures of him and he was not handsome,

698
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:33.679
<v Speaker 7>you know, he was you know, kind of you know,

699
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:37.119
<v Speaker 7>kind of cute and mischievous when he was young, and

700
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:40.679
<v Speaker 7>you know, he got a lot of women, but a

701
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:43.239
<v Speaker 7>lot of the women that he that he got into

702
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:45.440
<v Speaker 7>the family were kind of homely looking. If you look

703
00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:47.800
<v Speaker 7>at the pictures, there are some pretty ones, but mostly

704
00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:53.119
<v Speaker 7>he really, you know, Patricia Cranwinkle was not pretty. She

705
00:42:53.519 --> 00:42:56.000
<v Speaker 7>looked like kind of like a boy, you know, or man.

706
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:03.960
<v Speaker 7>And so anyways, Star was drawn to him when she

707
00:43:04.159 --> 00:43:06.719
<v Speaker 7>was only seventeen. She heard about him from a friend

708
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:11.559
<v Speaker 7>for his environmental activism, and so she basically moved across

709
00:43:11.599 --> 00:43:15.960
<v Speaker 7>the country to Corkoran so that she could visit him.

710
00:43:16.039 --> 00:43:18.199
<v Speaker 7>So they started writing letters and then she moved there,

711
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:21.440
<v Speaker 7>and you know, they were together for what seven years,

712
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.400
<v Speaker 7>and they were supposed to get married. She went and

713
00:43:23.480 --> 00:43:26.960
<v Speaker 7>got them a marriage license so that they could actually

714
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:30.840
<v Speaker 7>get married in the prisons. And so we thought that

715
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:34.159
<v Speaker 7>that was pretty significant to show the dynamic and that

716
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.320
<v Speaker 7>he was still at it and still able to do it.

717
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:41.199
<v Speaker 7>And also because I just thought that that was such

718
00:43:41.239 --> 00:43:45.519
<v Speaker 7>a poignant moment where they're dancing together in the visiting room.

719
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:52.039
<v Speaker 7>It's very just very visual, and it just stuck and

720
00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:56.079
<v Speaker 7>stuck in my head and thought, I just thought that

721
00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:02.079
<v Speaker 7>readers would really relate to that somehow. And she became,

722
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:05.920
<v Speaker 7>you know, his She was one of the very few

723
00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:08.280
<v Speaker 7>important people that he could rely on. And depend on

724
00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:14.360
<v Speaker 7>to do his work on the outside. And so there's

725
00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:16.840
<v Speaker 7>another guy named Gray Wolf who smuggled in some cell

726
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.079
<v Speaker 7>phones to him and finally got caught enough times that

727
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:22.559
<v Speaker 7>he was banned from the prison, couldn't come back anymore,

728
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:26.440
<v Speaker 7>but she could still come and so she was working

729
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:30.840
<v Speaker 7>on the at w A website, which was something that

730
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:38.079
<v Speaker 7>Sandra Good had and her partner had started some years earlier. Basically,

731
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:41.440
<v Speaker 7>you know, Manson saying that the same thing that he

732
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:43.800
<v Speaker 7>said before, which is that the rich white people are

733
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:49.119
<v Speaker 7>destroying the planet, and look where we are today. So

734
00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:52.079
<v Speaker 7>you know, it's you know, and there was the whole

735
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.719
<v Speaker 7>thing about at w A. It's a nonprofit, it's a

736
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:58.239
<v Speaker 7>one five oh one c three that she and this

737
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:02.519
<v Speaker 7>guy gray Wolf set up basically, you know, on Manson's behalf.

738
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:05.199
<v Speaker 7>But Manson is not mentioned anywhere. So the whole thing

739
00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:07.239
<v Speaker 7>about putting her in the book was number one, to

740
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:11.159
<v Speaker 7>show that Manson was still capable of getting young women

741
00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:14.440
<v Speaker 7>and influencing them. Number two, that he could get them

742
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.199
<v Speaker 7>to fall in love with him and do what he said.

743
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:19.440
<v Speaker 7>Number three, that he still had people on the outside

744
00:45:19.480 --> 00:45:22.440
<v Speaker 7>doing what he wanted them to do. And in this case,

745
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:25.679
<v Speaker 7>you know, change his image, tell everyone that he was

746
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:30.599
<v Speaker 7>wrongfully convicted, you know, like a pr person almost, you know.

747
00:45:33.079 --> 00:45:34.920
<v Speaker 7>And then you know he wanted them to plant trees

748
00:45:35.119 --> 00:45:38.199
<v Speaker 7>and do things like that. So I thought it was

749
00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:41.079
<v Speaker 7>I thought she was pretty important. I was not able

750
00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:42.800
<v Speaker 7>to get her to talk to us.

751
00:45:44.199 --> 00:45:44.599
<v Speaker 8>I tried.

752
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:47.320
<v Speaker 7>I went through various people who all knew her, called

753
00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:50.280
<v Speaker 7>her on the phone, and she just kept saying no.

754
00:45:50.440 --> 00:45:54.440
<v Speaker 7>So I did find though, some interviews with her online

755
00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:57.000
<v Speaker 7>where I could actually hear her speaking, and I could,

756
00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.800
<v Speaker 7>you know, we could quote her directly, use her own words.

757
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:03.199
<v Speaker 7>And there was you know, some obviously a lot of

758
00:46:03.239 --> 00:46:05.599
<v Speaker 7>news articles and media attention on her and Rolling Stone

759
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:10.400
<v Speaker 7>and various other places. So she was the most recent

760
00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:16.960
<v Speaker 7>of his women, you know. So there you have it.

761
00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:24.679
<v Speaker 2>You talk about that before the Gary Hinman murder, that Mary,

762
00:46:25.719 --> 00:46:28.559
<v Speaker 2>Bobby and Sadie had no history of violence. And then

763
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:30.679
<v Speaker 2>in the book you go into even more detail than

764
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:34.440
<v Speaker 2>I've read, and say Diane Lake's book about the techniques,

765
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:39.679
<v Speaker 2>how he started, how the brainwashing. We've mentioned brainwashing, but

766
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:41.880
<v Speaker 2>what are the details of Brainwashington? And that's what you

767
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:47.199
<v Speaker 2>provide in this on how it started and how it

768
00:46:47.360 --> 00:46:49.719
<v Speaker 2>became and What I found very interesting too, is that

769
00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:53.360
<v Speaker 2>the people that were seemed to be reluctant when they

770
00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:58.400
<v Speaker 2>tried to leave, like Katie, they were Manson instituted a

771
00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:00.400
<v Speaker 2>lot that no one could leave alone. So he didn't

772
00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:03.239
<v Speaker 2>trust those people that didn't trust him one hundred percent.

773
00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:06.559
<v Speaker 2>As he became more paranoid, and as he became more

774
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:09.920
<v Speaker 2>delusional about this idea of going underground and Death Valley,

775
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:13.400
<v Speaker 2>and his idea that the Black Panthers the Black Man

776
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:17.599
<v Speaker 2>would rise. And so you provide more details of exactly

777
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:21.079
<v Speaker 2>how he seduced these women and these men.

778
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.679
<v Speaker 7>Right. A couple other things though, that I think are

779
00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:30.199
<v Speaker 7>important to mention. We tried to really get down to

780
00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:34.519
<v Speaker 7>a real analysis of motive. So part of the reason

781
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:36.360
<v Speaker 7>and it took a while to get this right. We

782
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:40.000
<v Speaker 7>had to kind of reorganize the book until this made sense.

783
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:42.960
<v Speaker 7>And what we ended up deciding is that doing it

784
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:46.679
<v Speaker 7>strictly chronologically so that these murders that people really don't

785
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:49.239
<v Speaker 7>know about that you know, it's not like nobody knew

786
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:50.599
<v Speaker 7>about it, But I'm just saying they're not the ones

787
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:54.119
<v Speaker 7>that people commonly think of as Manson murders. The Gary

788
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:58.679
<v Speaker 7>hinmanman and the attempted murder of Bernard Crowe and then

789
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:01.239
<v Speaker 7>the one after which is of Shorty Shae the ranch hand.

790
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.440
<v Speaker 7>These are you know, the not the high profile murders

791
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:07.239
<v Speaker 7>that everybody thinks of, you know, with regard to this case.

792
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:12.400
<v Speaker 7>But when you read them and the domino start following falling,

793
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:14.119
<v Speaker 7>and you can sort of understand that, you know, this

794
00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:17.320
<v Speaker 7>helter skelter thing that Bugliosi focused on in court in

795
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:21.199
<v Speaker 7>order to win this case. Yes, there was there was

796
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:24.800
<v Speaker 7>something the helter skelter idea where yeah, they're going to

797
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:25.719
<v Speaker 7>go under ground, go out.

798
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:26.239
<v Speaker 8>Into the desert.

799
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:28.920
<v Speaker 7>And this is Charlie's crazy idea, which is actually not

800
00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:31.400
<v Speaker 7>even his own original thought. You know, it's based on

801
00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:37.320
<v Speaker 7>his his ideas melding the Beatle lyrics and the parts

802
00:48:37.360 --> 00:48:41.920
<v Speaker 7>of the Bible and the Krishna Venta cult which operated

803
00:48:42.880 --> 00:48:45.199
<v Speaker 7>or what was left of it operated actually just a

804
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.480
<v Speaker 7>few miles away from Spawn Ranch, which also you know,

805
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:52.280
<v Speaker 7>the guy Krishna Venta also talked about taking people out

806
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:54.320
<v Speaker 7>to the desert, to this bottomless pit and there would

807
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:57.480
<v Speaker 7>be one hundred and forty four thousand chosen people. And

808
00:48:57.559 --> 00:48:59.239
<v Speaker 7>you know this is all from the Bible. So all

809
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:05.639
<v Speaker 7>these rantings that Manson told the family and that that Bugliosi.

810
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:07.519
<v Speaker 8>This was how he was able to get.

811
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:10.320
<v Speaker 7>Manson convicted a murder as part of the conspiracy. Since

812
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:15.440
<v Speaker 7>he was physically not at most of these murders, we

813
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:19.559
<v Speaker 7>really wanted to get to motive and and in order

814
00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:22.440
<v Speaker 7>to understand that there was more than one motive. That's

815
00:49:22.519 --> 00:49:26.119
<v Speaker 7>why the Gary Henman, that's why the Bernard Crow, That's

816
00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:30.239
<v Speaker 7>why those early murders are important because it shows, you know,

817
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:34.559
<v Speaker 7>some of these other these other theories that are out,

818
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:36.920
<v Speaker 7>they're not really theories. They they are other motives that

819
00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:39.719
<v Speaker 7>that play into this that that just did not come

820
00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:42.320
<v Speaker 7>out in court. So we thought that was very important.

821
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:45.159
<v Speaker 7>And so it shows when he when they go there

822
00:49:45.320 --> 00:49:48.159
<v Speaker 7>to the Henman house to go get money so that

823
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:51.559
<v Speaker 7>that'll subsidize the move out to the desert, and he

824
00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:54.559
<v Speaker 7>didn't have any money, so they end up killing him.

825
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.079
<v Speaker 7>And you know, initially Bobby Bosley is the one who

826
00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:02.280
<v Speaker 7>actually stabbed Gary Henman. He's changed his story a number

827
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.960
<v Speaker 7>of times, but you know, he claims he called up

828
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:08.800
<v Speaker 7>the branch and talked to Manson, and Manson said, you

829
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:11.239
<v Speaker 7>know what you need to do, and so he stabbed him.

830
00:50:13.400 --> 00:50:19.079
<v Speaker 7>But you know, the thing was that these other murders,

831
00:50:19.559 --> 00:50:21.559
<v Speaker 7>there are people in the family who say, well, we

832
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:24.280
<v Speaker 7>did that so we could get Garrett, we could get

833
00:50:24.519 --> 00:50:27.320
<v Speaker 7>Bobby Busley out of jail because he was being held

834
00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:30.280
<v Speaker 7>on the murder of Gary Hinman. And if we made

835
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:32.639
<v Speaker 7>it look like the Black Panthers did these other murders

836
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:36.639
<v Speaker 7>by painting these messages in blood of pigs and rise

837
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:40.480
<v Speaker 7>and helter skelter like they did at at the Tay

838
00:50:40.559 --> 00:50:43.400
<v Speaker 7>and La Bianca houses, we can show that make it

839
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:46.599
<v Speaker 7>look like there's somebody still out there who actually did this.

840
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:48.559
<v Speaker 7>And you know, Bobby was in jail when these other

841
00:50:48.679 --> 00:50:51.840
<v Speaker 7>murders were committed, So you know, it's a whole other

842
00:50:52.039 --> 00:50:56.719
<v Speaker 7>motive for why not just helter skelter, which is pretty

843
00:50:56.800 --> 00:51:01.239
<v Speaker 7>crazy set of you know ideas as a way to

844
00:51:02.679 --> 00:51:05.719
<v Speaker 7>you know, make these people do these crazy things that

845
00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:09.119
<v Speaker 7>are seemed pretty inexplicable. Why that would be a motive.

846
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:11.599
<v Speaker 7>So it's helped part of the big mix.

847
00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:11.920
<v Speaker 5>And so.

848
00:51:13.719 --> 00:51:15.440
<v Speaker 7>You know, talking about each of the murders and then

849
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:19.880
<v Speaker 7>and how they were done and in detail in the

850
00:51:19.960 --> 00:51:24.159
<v Speaker 7>drug burn with Bernard Crow that Tex Watson did, which

851
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:26.360
<v Speaker 7>Charlie ended up being involved in as well, and he

852
00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:29.320
<v Speaker 7>ended up shooting this guy in the stomach. Had to

853
00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:32.320
<v Speaker 7>be included in the whole case because it showed that

854
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:34.800
<v Speaker 7>Manson was capable of shooting somebody since he wasn't at

855
00:51:34.840 --> 00:51:37.239
<v Speaker 7>all the other scenes. And by now I've forgotten your

856
00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:37.920
<v Speaker 7>original question.

857
00:51:41.480 --> 00:51:45.679
<v Speaker 2>Well that's it was a statement basically, but you've covered

858
00:51:45.719 --> 00:51:48.280
<v Speaker 2>a few things here certainly with that. No, I mean

859
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:50.760
<v Speaker 2>that's what I was trying to get to listen from

860
00:51:50.840 --> 00:51:53.960
<v Speaker 2>you too, was that what the purpose of that was,

861
00:51:54.079 --> 00:51:58.559
<v Speaker 2>to show the mindset even before the Tate and La

862
00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Bianca murders, Right, And then I guess.

863
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.480
<v Speaker 7>I guess one other place that I was going to

864
00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:05.800
<v Speaker 7>go is the brainwashing you had mentioned earlier, how how

865
00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:10.000
<v Speaker 7>that happened and why? And I want to I want

866
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.400
<v Speaker 7>to get to the mental illness because Lisa and I

867
00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:14.760
<v Speaker 7>really felt that that was important, that that really has

868
00:52:14.920 --> 00:52:20.159
<v Speaker 7>not been explored as much as as we think it

869
00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:23.920
<v Speaker 7>should have, you know, and this happened a lot in

870
00:52:24.039 --> 00:52:28.280
<v Speaker 7>trial cases even today, where the prosecutors always say, you

871
00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:32.679
<v Speaker 7>know this this defendant is evil. Well, yes, these were horrible, heinous,

872
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:38.480
<v Speaker 7>brutal killings. But you know, if you're someone like me

873
00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:41.320
<v Speaker 7>who has a psychology background and has covered prisons and

874
00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:49.199
<v Speaker 7>mental illness and how addiction often plays into killings. You know,

875
00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:54.079
<v Speaker 7>he was mentally ill. The guy has been was until

876
00:52:54.119 --> 00:52:57.039
<v Speaker 7>he died, classified as a mentally ill inmate. He was

877
00:52:57.079 --> 00:53:00.199
<v Speaker 7>at Vacaville for a dozen years. He was in there

878
00:53:00.239 --> 00:53:04.039
<v Speaker 7>with all these crazy people. He was diagnosed with aspects

879
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:07.719
<v Speaker 7>of schizophrenia. He was paranoid, he had personality disorders, and on.

880
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:10.559
<v Speaker 8>Top of all of that, he took all those crazy drugs.

881
00:53:11.239 --> 00:53:15.719
<v Speaker 8>And so you know, was he crazy or was he

882
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:16.760
<v Speaker 8>crazy like a fox?

883
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:18.840
<v Speaker 7>I don't know that it matters, but I mean, if

884
00:53:18.880 --> 00:53:22.159
<v Speaker 7>you've listened to him, you know, his ideas kind of

885
00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:24.079
<v Speaker 7>flow into each other. There was a guy when I

886
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:26.559
<v Speaker 7>went to UC Berkeley. He was called the Polka Dot Man.

887
00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:28.920
<v Speaker 7>And I sat down and I talked to him one day,

888
00:53:28.920 --> 00:53:30.559
<v Speaker 7>because you know, I was a psychology major and I

889
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:32.840
<v Speaker 7>was really into all this and fascinated by all this.

890
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:34.719
<v Speaker 7>And I sat down talked to him one day and

891
00:53:34.760 --> 00:53:39.039
<v Speaker 7>he said, yeah, I'm schizophrenic, and I don't like the

892
00:53:39.079 --> 00:53:41.639
<v Speaker 7>way the pills make me feel because I have all

893
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:43.880
<v Speaker 7>this stuff in my head and the pills basically just

894
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:46.480
<v Speaker 7>keeps it all inside my head. But I still have

895
00:53:46.559 --> 00:53:48.400
<v Speaker 7>it all bouncing around in this way. If I don't

896
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:51.559
<v Speaker 7>take the pills, it can come out physically, but the

897
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:56.159
<v Speaker 7>pills keep it trapped. Well. So while Manson was out,

898
00:53:56.599 --> 00:53:59.320
<v Speaker 7>you know, he was obviously, you know, not taking any

899
00:53:59.400 --> 00:54:01.800
<v Speaker 7>kind of medicaid for any of these and even I

900
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:03.840
<v Speaker 7>think when he was in prison they did medicate him

901
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:04.719
<v Speaker 7>at least while he was at.

902
00:54:04.719 --> 00:54:06.159
<v Speaker 8>Vacaville, because he's talked about that.

903
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:10.159
<v Speaker 7>So you know, he has a lot of these ideas,

904
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:11.760
<v Speaker 7>and when you listen to him. There's a section in

905
00:54:11.800 --> 00:54:14.440
<v Speaker 7>the book from one of his Pearl hearings which gives

906
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:17.320
<v Speaker 7>you a really good idea about how these ideas kind

907
00:54:17.360 --> 00:54:19.400
<v Speaker 7>of roll into each other when he's talking, and it's

908
00:54:19.440 --> 00:54:22.760
<v Speaker 7>almost poetic. But it's also like a schizophrenic. If you've

909
00:54:22.760 --> 00:54:25.199
<v Speaker 7>ever talked to a schizophrenic or listened to a schizophrenic,

910
00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:28.000
<v Speaker 7>which I don't think most people have, but I have personally,

911
00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:33.320
<v Speaker 7>that's what it sounds like. And so, you know, crazy

912
00:54:33.519 --> 00:54:36.159
<v Speaker 7>is kind of a bad term. It's just the way

913
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:39.039
<v Speaker 7>his mind works, and so people thought he was mystical,

914
00:54:39.119 --> 00:54:42.079
<v Speaker 7>and people were mesmerized by the way he talked and

915
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:44.639
<v Speaker 7>the ideas that came out of his mouth, and that's

916
00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 7>part of what brainwashing was, especially when they were on LSD,

917
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:52.039
<v Speaker 7>because what he said became had much more relevance, and

918
00:54:52.400 --> 00:54:55.480
<v Speaker 7>he you know, pulled it all together and into this

919
00:54:55.639 --> 00:54:58.679
<v Speaker 7>whole crazy idea of going to the desert and finding

920
00:54:58.719 --> 00:55:00.760
<v Speaker 7>this bottomless pit and this and that, and so when

921
00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:03.119
<v Speaker 7>you look at all of those things, it's the totality

922
00:55:03.840 --> 00:55:07.239
<v Speaker 7>of all of those factors together of what he was

923
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:09.960
<v Speaker 7>doing to them with fear, intimidation, with sex, with drugs,

924
00:55:10.079 --> 00:55:14.880
<v Speaker 7>with these you know, mystical quote unquote rants about what

925
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:18.440
<v Speaker 7>was going to happen, and the fear and the brainwashing techniques,

926
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:20.960
<v Speaker 7>and then the classes on stabbing. I mean, these people,

927
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:26.679
<v Speaker 7>you know, basically did whatever whatever he told them to

928
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:30.519
<v Speaker 7>do because he trained them. I mean, if you've studied

929
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:33.079
<v Speaker 7>any kind of cult, that's what they do. They bring

930
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:35.920
<v Speaker 7>you in, come join the group. You know, these are

931
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.880
<v Speaker 7>lost people who are looking for some direction. They're looking

932
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:40.960
<v Speaker 7>for somebody to give them the answers. They're looking for

933
00:55:41.079 --> 00:55:44.400
<v Speaker 7>somebody to tell them what to do with their lives,

934
00:55:44.440 --> 00:55:47.000
<v Speaker 7>to give their lives. Meaning, these were a lot of

935
00:55:47.079 --> 00:55:49.960
<v Speaker 7>young people who had problems with their parents, with their mothers,

936
00:55:50.000 --> 00:55:53.639
<v Speaker 7>with their fathers. Some of them were sexually molested. A

937
00:55:53.719 --> 00:55:56.159
<v Speaker 7>number of the men and women were you know, Bruce

938
00:55:56.239 --> 00:55:59.320
<v Speaker 7>Davis was was raped and molested when he was young,

939
00:55:59.440 --> 00:56:05.000
<v Speaker 7>and so was Charlie. Charlie was raped by these kids

940
00:56:05.039 --> 00:56:07.920
<v Speaker 7>in prison when he was not prison, I'm sorry, in

941
00:56:08.000 --> 00:56:11.280
<v Speaker 7>the institutions when he was growing up, because he was

942
00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:15.599
<v Speaker 7>in juvenile facilities from the time he was a teenager

943
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:18.719
<v Speaker 7>until the time he got out and met Rosalie Willis.

944
00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:21.199
<v Speaker 7>It was the first She was the first woman he'd

945
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:25.039
<v Speaker 7>ever had sex with. He'd been having sex with boys

946
00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:28.079
<v Speaker 7>for you know, five years before that, so it's really

947
00:56:28.119 --> 00:56:32.119
<v Speaker 7>interesting that, you know, he was institutionalized and all of

948
00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:36.559
<v Speaker 7>that became part of his whole thing, and the Dale Carnegie,

949
00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:47.440
<v Speaker 7>Norman Vincent Peale scientology and then Stranger from a Strange

950
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:52.840
<v Speaker 7>Land Robert Heinland. Those concepts, books and ideas he picked

951
00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:54.519
<v Speaker 7>up also while he was in prison. So by the

952
00:56:54.559 --> 00:56:57.599
<v Speaker 7>time he gets out, he's got this whole like mythology

953
00:56:57.719 --> 00:57:01.000
<v Speaker 7>built up in his mind about this stuff that he's

954
00:57:01.039 --> 00:57:04.119
<v Speaker 7>preaching to these people. And I have to say, you know,

955
00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:08.480
<v Speaker 7>it must have been it must have been pretty provocative

956
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:12.599
<v Speaker 7>and pretty powerful because it caused these people to go

957
00:57:12.719 --> 00:57:13.519
<v Speaker 7>kill other people.

958
00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:17.880
<v Speaker 8>So that's a one of.

959
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:21.599
<v Speaker 2>The surprising things is for people, I think, and there's

960
00:57:21.719 --> 00:57:23.719
<v Speaker 2>it's been explored a little bit, but you do that,

961
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:28.960
<v Speaker 2>you talk about it. Here is the Terry Melcher producer.

962
00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Charles Manson is an adequate musician, singer, songwriter. I've even

963
00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:38.079
<v Speaker 2>heard the material Surprise, surprised, and they were taking him

964
00:57:38.199 --> 00:57:42.599
<v Speaker 2>somewhat seriously. If you think, you know top guys in

965
00:57:42.719 --> 00:57:46.239
<v Speaker 2>the LA scene at that time in sixty eight, tell

966
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:51.639
<v Speaker 2>us about Terry Melcher, the house and any thing that

967
00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:55.559
<v Speaker 2>you discovered that was again you didn't read Helter Skelter

968
00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:58.719
<v Speaker 2>in preparation for this, But what did you find about

969
00:57:58.760 --> 00:58:02.079
<v Speaker 2>the Terry Melcher and that motive in that house and

970
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:02.679
<v Speaker 2>that producer?

971
00:58:03.599 --> 00:58:05.320
<v Speaker 7>Well, you know, there's a lot of different theories. There's

972
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:08.360
<v Speaker 7>a lot of different things that have been said. He

973
00:58:10.119 --> 00:58:12.800
<v Speaker 7>Charles Manson had been to that house before number one,

974
00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:17.320
<v Speaker 7>which I didn't know before I got involved with this book.

975
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:22.000
<v Speaker 7>He had gone over there and this came out in

976
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:27.119
<v Speaker 7>testimony in court testimony. He went over there. He had

977
00:58:27.239 --> 00:58:31.440
<v Speaker 7>met the guy who owned the house at Dennis Wilson's house,

978
00:58:32.239 --> 00:58:37.960
<v Speaker 7>So Tex Watson picked up Dennis Wilson hitchhiking one day,

979
00:58:38.599 --> 00:58:41.400
<v Speaker 7>went back to the Pacific Palisades, dropped him off and

980
00:58:41.519 --> 00:58:43.920
<v Speaker 7>Dennis was like, oh, come on inside my house. So

981
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:48.000
<v Speaker 7>he did, and that's how Tex Watson met Manson. Well,

982
00:58:48.119 --> 00:58:50.159
<v Speaker 7>so Manson next thing you know is he's moving all

983
00:58:50.239 --> 00:58:53.800
<v Speaker 7>these young girls in with Dennis Wilson because he's like, oh,

984
00:58:53.800 --> 00:58:54.559
<v Speaker 7>here's my ticket.

985
00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Right.

986
00:58:55.639 --> 00:58:59.719
<v Speaker 7>So while he was at Dennis Wilson's house, Terry Melcher

987
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:04.719
<v Speaker 7>came over. Music producer. Uh, this guy who owned the

988
00:59:05.119 --> 00:59:07.960
<v Speaker 7>house on Cielo Drive, whose name.

989
00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:10.719
<v Speaker 8>Is Rudy Altabelli, he was over there.

990
00:59:10.760 --> 00:59:15.480
<v Speaker 7>He was a talent manager and some other people who

991
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:18.039
<v Speaker 7>were involved in the music business. So you know, he

992
00:59:18.280 --> 00:59:21.239
<v Speaker 7>was hanging around with these movers and shakers in the

993
00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:26.239
<v Speaker 7>Hollywood movie and music industry. And Charlie really really wanted

994
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:29.159
<v Speaker 7>to be a rock star. He wanted to record his

995
00:59:29.280 --> 00:59:32.320
<v Speaker 7>songs in the he wanted he loved to sing. He

996
00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:35.079
<v Speaker 7>had written a lot of songs in federal prison, and

997
00:59:35.199 --> 00:59:39.280
<v Speaker 7>he wanted other people to hear him. And so Terry Melcher,

998
00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:43.159
<v Speaker 7>there was another guy who worked for Terry Melcher who

999
00:59:43.239 --> 00:59:45.840
<v Speaker 7>was also involved in this story, who basically convinced Terry

1000
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:49.039
<v Speaker 7>to come over to the to spawn Ranch and listen

1001
00:59:49.719 --> 00:59:53.239
<v Speaker 7>to this you know, unusual group with Charlie Manson, who

1002
00:59:53.480 --> 00:59:55.840
<v Speaker 7>Terry had already met at Demis Wilson's house.

1003
00:59:56.280 --> 00:59:57.719
<v Speaker 8>So he agreed to go over there.

1004
00:59:59.800 --> 01:00:02.360
<v Speaker 7>And and you know, he listened, and I guess he

1005
01:00:02.440 --> 01:00:05.519
<v Speaker 7>wasn't all that impressed. But Charlie thought that he had

1006
01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:07.400
<v Speaker 7>promised him a record deal and then thought that he

1007
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:12.320
<v Speaker 7>had renicked down them, so he went over to He

1008
01:00:12.440 --> 01:00:15.639
<v Speaker 7>knew that Terry Melcher lived at the Clo Drive house.

1009
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:20.920
<v Speaker 7>Tex Watson also knew that Terry Melcher had lived in

1010
01:00:20.960 --> 01:00:24.280
<v Speaker 7>that house, and Terry had actually borrowed.

1011
01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:27.119
<v Speaker 8>Terry's car and credit cards.

1012
01:00:27.159 --> 01:00:29.599
<v Speaker 7>So I mean, there's actually more that I wasn't really

1013
01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:33.880
<v Speaker 7>able to find out that because there's just so many

1014
01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:36.800
<v Speaker 7>different theories and I'm not really sure on what's credible

1015
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:38.199
<v Speaker 7>what is and but I do know that they knew

1016
01:00:38.239 --> 01:00:45.239
<v Speaker 7>each other, and so ter Terry had lived there before

1017
01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:49.199
<v Speaker 7>Sharon Tate and Roman Polanskin. You know, he basically gave

1018
01:00:49.280 --> 01:00:50.679
<v Speaker 7>them I don't know if it was like a sublease

1019
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:53.000
<v Speaker 7>or basically just he moved and said, why don't you

1020
01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:57.519
<v Speaker 7>guys move in? So Charlie came over in March of

1021
01:00:57.719 --> 01:01:02.360
<v Speaker 7>sixty nine, and went to go find Rudy else Belly

1022
01:01:02.679 --> 01:01:05.719
<v Speaker 7>in the guest house or was looking for him. I

1023
01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:07.800
<v Speaker 7>don't know what he said exactly, but there was a

1024
01:01:08.000 --> 01:01:12.199
<v Speaker 7>photographer over there shooting Sharon Tate, and he came out

1025
01:01:12.239 --> 01:01:14.039
<v Speaker 7>and talked to Charlie who was just wandering around the

1026
01:01:14.239 --> 01:01:19.760
<v Speaker 7>front yard, and basically the guy said, you're looking for

1027
01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:22.000
<v Speaker 7>whoever's in the guest house. And so Charlie went to

1028
01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:24.199
<v Speaker 7>the guest house and no one was there. So he

1029
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:28.239
<v Speaker 7>came back that night talked to Rudy and he wanted

1030
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:30.639
<v Speaker 7>to know where Terry Melcher was. You know, he knew

1031
01:01:30.639 --> 01:01:32.480
<v Speaker 7>he wasn't living there anymore, but he wanted to know

1032
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:36.159
<v Speaker 7>where he was, and Rudy wouldn't tell him. Well, when

1033
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:38.599
<v Speaker 7>he came over in the afternoon, Sharon Tate actually came

1034
01:01:38.679 --> 01:01:42.039
<v Speaker 7>to the door and was like, what's going on, and

1035
01:01:42.159 --> 01:01:44.800
<v Speaker 7>so he actually looked her eye to eye. There was actually,

1036
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:47.199
<v Speaker 7>you know, so he knew who was in that house

1037
01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:48.480
<v Speaker 7>and he knew it wasn't Terry Melcher.

1038
01:01:48.519 --> 01:01:49.800
<v Speaker 8>So there are people who say, oh, he.

1039
01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:51.639
<v Speaker 7>Went to the house. He told them to go to

1040
01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:54.719
<v Speaker 7>the house because he knew that, you know, he wanted

1041
01:01:54.719 --> 01:01:56.559
<v Speaker 7>them to kill Terry Melcher. Well, he knew that Terry

1042
01:01:56.639 --> 01:02:00.280
<v Speaker 7>wasn't there, so that's not true. But what we think

1043
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:03.920
<v Speaker 7>is credible thing is that you know this other statement,

1044
01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:07.679
<v Speaker 7>which is that he said basically that go kill the

1045
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:10.320
<v Speaker 7>people who live at Terry's house now or the house

1046
01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:12.679
<v Speaker 7>where Terry used to live. Just go kill him and

1047
01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:14.400
<v Speaker 7>get as much money as you can and then go

1048
01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:16.400
<v Speaker 7>to every house on the street and don't come back

1049
01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:18.920
<v Speaker 7>until you have at least six hundred dollars. And that

1050
01:02:19.119 --> 01:02:22.920
<v Speaker 7>was the mission that night. And so you know there

1051
01:02:23.320 --> 01:02:26.119
<v Speaker 7>are people today who were like, well, it was revenge.

1052
01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:33.639
<v Speaker 7>That's probably partially true. Susan Atkins told her lawyers that

1053
01:02:33.880 --> 01:02:37.679
<v Speaker 7>that house represented a symbol of rejection for Charlie because

1054
01:02:38.840 --> 01:02:42.320
<v Speaker 7>he felt it that Terry Melcher renegged on him. But

1055
01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:46.719
<v Speaker 7>you know, more overall globally, he wanted he wanted to

1056
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:48.920
<v Speaker 7>kill the beautiful people. He wanted to make a statement,

1057
01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:51.079
<v Speaker 7>He wanted to shock the world because he felt like

1058
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:54.639
<v Speaker 7>the white people were destroying society. And that's where this

1059
01:02:54.719 --> 01:02:57.800
<v Speaker 7>whole race war thing came from. The black people, you know,

1060
01:02:57.840 --> 01:02:59.920
<v Speaker 7>the Muslim black Muslims and the black Panthers were all

1061
01:03:00.000 --> 01:03:05.480
<v Speaker 7>already out, you know, causing their movement, you know, and

1062
01:03:05.559 --> 01:03:07.679
<v Speaker 7>so he said, they're already out there doing it, and

1063
01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:11.639
<v Speaker 7>so they're going to keep doing it, and then we're

1064
01:03:11.639 --> 01:03:13.800
<v Speaker 7>gonna go to the desert. They're going to join us

1065
01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:16.159
<v Speaker 7>out there in the desert, and then you know, when

1066
01:03:16.159 --> 01:03:18.199
<v Speaker 7>they're done killing everybody, then they're going to make me

1067
01:03:18.280 --> 01:03:19.880
<v Speaker 7>their leader, because they're not going to know how to

1068
01:03:19.960 --> 01:03:24.039
<v Speaker 7>lead themselves. So that it's a crazy theory, but there

1069
01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:27.000
<v Speaker 7>are actually parts of it that that do make sense.

1070
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:31.400
<v Speaker 7>But I think, you know, he sent them to that

1071
01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:34.599
<v Speaker 7>house because he wanted to kill the rich, beautiful white

1072
01:03:34.639 --> 01:03:38.880
<v Speaker 7>people who he knew now occupied that space. And there

1073
01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:42.840
<v Speaker 7>may be more to it than that. There's also another

1074
01:03:43.480 --> 01:03:46.960
<v Speaker 7>thing that we mentioned in the Alternative Theories chapter in

1075
01:03:47.000 --> 01:03:51.199
<v Speaker 7>the book, where Manson has had had later and and

1076
01:03:51.360 --> 01:03:54.239
<v Speaker 7>since and was still telling friends of his that he

1077
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:58.119
<v Speaker 7>went actually after text Watson and the girls came back

1078
01:03:58.519 --> 01:04:00.880
<v Speaker 7>and they told them what happened. He was really upset

1079
01:04:01.000 --> 01:04:02.760
<v Speaker 7>that they made such a mess, and so he went

1080
01:04:02.880 --> 01:04:07.159
<v Speaker 7>back that night, later that night to clean up quote

1081
01:04:07.239 --> 01:04:09.719
<v Speaker 7>unquote and see what his children quote unquote had done.

1082
01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:12.880
<v Speaker 7>And then so there, you know, supposedly he left some

1083
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:17.199
<v Speaker 7>glasses there, He moved the bodies around. It's possible that

1084
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:18.679
<v Speaker 7>he went there with someone else. We don't know who

1085
01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:22.400
<v Speaker 7>that is, because it does say in the police reports

1086
01:04:22.440 --> 01:04:29.400
<v Speaker 7>that the bodies uh See Bring, Jacy Bring and Sharon

1087
01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:32.400
<v Speaker 7>Tate's bodies appear to have been moved, So that actually

1088
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:36.920
<v Speaker 7>does match what Charlie was saying later, I'm gonna have

1089
01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:39.360
<v Speaker 7>to I'm gonna have to get going pretty soon. So

1090
01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:41.719
<v Speaker 7>let's see if you have any last one or two questions.

1091
01:04:42.760 --> 01:04:45.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, the thing is in the epilogue. It

1092
01:04:45.400 --> 01:04:47.800
<v Speaker 2>was very interesting, and I mentioned it in the introduction

1093
01:04:47.920 --> 01:04:52.079
<v Speaker 2>as well, that you said the social and political context

1094
01:04:52.159 --> 01:04:56.320
<v Speaker 2>that gave ride to Manson is eerily similar to today.

1095
01:04:56.920 --> 01:05:02.159
<v Speaker 7>How you know, the whole time that we were working

1096
01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:04.880
<v Speaker 7>on this book, I just kept feeling and I feel

1097
01:05:04.920 --> 01:05:08.079
<v Speaker 7>it even more so today that we were in nineteen

1098
01:05:08.119 --> 01:05:15.199
<v Speaker 7>sixty seven. And then the longer the longer this has

1099
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:20.559
<v Speaker 7>gone on, with this administration that we have now, it

1100
01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:24.440
<v Speaker 7>just seems like there's more and more political divide, there's

1101
01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:26.360
<v Speaker 7>more and more racial divide. I mean, at the time

1102
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:28.119
<v Speaker 7>actually that we were working on this, there was a

1103
01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:33.920
<v Speaker 7>lot more of the black men, unarmed black men being

1104
01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:37.440
<v Speaker 7>shot by the police officers, the white police officers. That

1105
01:05:37.519 --> 01:05:39.199
<v Speaker 7>was a big thing that was happening while we were

1106
01:05:39.239 --> 01:05:43.480
<v Speaker 7>working on this, which doesn't we're not the media is

1107
01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:45.239
<v Speaker 7>not focusing on that so much. We're seemed to be

1108
01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:50.159
<v Speaker 7>more focusing on Russia and global divides now. But basically,

1109
01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:54.880
<v Speaker 7>you know, here's the thing. We have the opiate epidemic,

1110
01:05:55.000 --> 01:05:56.719
<v Speaker 7>so there's a lot of people out there who are

1111
01:05:56.800 --> 01:05:59.480
<v Speaker 7>in a vulnerable state. There are a lot of people

1112
01:05:59.519 --> 01:06:01.280
<v Speaker 7>out there who you know, more and more this has

1113
01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:04.639
<v Speaker 7>actually gotten even stronger since since we were working on

1114
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:09.159
<v Speaker 7>the book. More and more people distrust the government. More

1115
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:14.719
<v Speaker 7>and more people mistrust the establishment. The conservative and the

1116
01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:19.199
<v Speaker 7>more progressive factions are factions you know that you know,

1117
01:06:19.400 --> 01:06:21.920
<v Speaker 7>just like they were back back in those days. It

1118
01:06:22.119 --> 01:06:25.480
<v Speaker 7>just seems like there's so many of the same kinds

1119
01:06:25.519 --> 01:06:29.840
<v Speaker 7>of dynamics going on, except today it's much more dangerous

1120
01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:32.639
<v Speaker 7>because we have the Internet, we have social media, we

1121
01:06:32.760 --> 01:06:36.039
<v Speaker 7>have these Russian bots, we have whoever is putting together

1122
01:06:36.159 --> 01:06:39.440
<v Speaker 7>these the propaganda that you can see on Facebook where

1123
01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:43.440
<v Speaker 7>they're drumming up, you know, division and trying to pit

1124
01:06:43.480 --> 01:06:45.800
<v Speaker 7>people against each other and causing chaos. It is the

1125
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:53.440
<v Speaker 7>perfect time for an ideologue who has dangerous intentions to

1126
01:06:53.559 --> 01:06:56.679
<v Speaker 7>come in and try to sway mass opinion. And it's

1127
01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:01.639
<v Speaker 7>happening every day today. So that's why. You know, if

1128
01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:05.639
<v Speaker 7>you're a student of history, you can see that that

1129
01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:08.199
<v Speaker 7>history does repeat itself, and it's happening right now. And

1130
01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:11.599
<v Speaker 7>so Lisa and I felt very strongly that we wanted

1131
01:07:11.599 --> 01:07:13.880
<v Speaker 7>to end the book with that message that you know,

1132
01:07:14.320 --> 01:07:16.360
<v Speaker 7>people learn from the past, look at what's going on

1133
01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:20.880
<v Speaker 7>around you. This could happen again. Manson, you know, Manson

1134
01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:23.159
<v Speaker 7>was a product of the media. Manson was you know,

1135
01:07:23.199 --> 01:07:25.320
<v Speaker 7>people say always. He even said this himself, I'm a

1136
01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:27.280
<v Speaker 7>product of Bugliosi. I'm a product of all of you

1137
01:07:27.400 --> 01:07:29.960
<v Speaker 7>people looking for basically someone to blame this all on

1138
01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:34.320
<v Speaker 7>and I became, you know, the icon, and he's he

1139
01:07:34.559 --> 01:07:37.599
<v Speaker 7>was right. I think he really did manage to be

1140
01:07:37.840 --> 01:07:40.400
<v Speaker 7>the guy who was easy to blame. And you know,

1141
01:07:40.519 --> 01:07:42.840
<v Speaker 7>you look online and who is the most talked about

1142
01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:48.360
<v Speaker 7>evil killer ever and it's Manson always right, So I mean,

1143
01:07:48.559 --> 01:07:50.960
<v Speaker 7>it could anyone could step in and do that, and

1144
01:07:51.039 --> 01:07:53.119
<v Speaker 7>in fact, I think there are people doing that right now.

1145
01:07:53.360 --> 01:07:56.519
<v Speaker 7>And I won't name any names, but it's a dangerous

1146
01:07:56.719 --> 01:07:57.639
<v Speaker 7>it's a dangerous time.

1147
01:07:57.679 --> 01:07:58.599
<v Speaker 8>It's a perfect storm.

1148
01:07:59.400 --> 01:08:01.880
<v Speaker 7>I just hope that, you know, that people can really

1149
01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:05.320
<v Speaker 7>pull together and resist that and try to focus on

1150
01:08:05.440 --> 01:08:10.360
<v Speaker 7>what's real. You know, because culture made and ideologuice prey

1151
01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:14.719
<v Speaker 7>on people who feel vulnerable and hopeless, and they're looking

1152
01:08:14.760 --> 01:08:16.479
<v Speaker 7>for somebody to make sense of it. They're looking for

1153
01:08:16.600 --> 01:08:20.439
<v Speaker 7>somebody to tell them what they think is the truth,

1154
01:08:20.920 --> 01:08:24.760
<v Speaker 7>you know, the truth, which is a kind of a

1155
01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:25.800
<v Speaker 7>fleeting thought.

1156
01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and I think a lot of philosophy for an afternoon, certainly.

1157
01:08:34.399 --> 01:08:37.600
<v Speaker 2>And I also think Charles Manson has the goals that

1158
01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:41.600
<v Speaker 2>he had once he had this failed musical career, that

1159
01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:44.479
<v Speaker 2>he would do something else to achieve infamy. I think

1160
01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:48.199
<v Speaker 2>that is a symptom of a lot of people today

1161
01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:50.760
<v Speaker 2>that are desperate for any kind of attention. They go

1162
01:08:50.840 --> 01:08:53.119
<v Speaker 2>out in a glory like there's nothing to lose.

1163
01:08:53.880 --> 01:08:56.399
<v Speaker 7>That's why there's so many of these school shootings. And

1164
01:08:56.439 --> 01:08:59.359
<v Speaker 7>you know, they're all these young white men, right, not

1165
01:08:59.439 --> 01:09:01.319
<v Speaker 7>they're not all, yeah, but a lot of them are.

1166
01:09:02.039 --> 01:09:04.840
<v Speaker 7>But most of them are these white men who feel

1167
01:09:04.920 --> 01:09:07.199
<v Speaker 7>that they have no power, they have no control. Some

1168
01:09:07.319 --> 01:09:10.079
<v Speaker 7>of them are mentally ill, many of them are mentally.

1169
01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:11.840
<v Speaker 8>Ill, and they have guns and.

1170
01:09:13.439 --> 01:09:16.119
<v Speaker 7>Anson that that was what was kind of interesting about

1171
01:09:16.159 --> 01:09:19.239
<v Speaker 7>this is he didn't he didn't do it with guns.

1172
01:09:19.279 --> 01:09:22.960
<v Speaker 7>He had these people doing it with knives mostly, So

1173
01:09:23.079 --> 01:09:25.079
<v Speaker 7>I mean, it doesn't you know, I'm not a I'm

1174
01:09:25.119 --> 01:09:29.640
<v Speaker 7>not gonna say i'm pro proer against guns publicly, but

1175
01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:32.920
<v Speaker 7>you know, it doesn't always involve a gun when you can,

1176
01:09:33.039 --> 01:09:35.159
<v Speaker 7>when you're doing something as a mass murder like this,

1177
01:09:35.279 --> 01:09:36.319
<v Speaker 7>you can use knives too.

1178
01:09:36.680 --> 01:09:41.279
<v Speaker 2>So absolutely absolutely, I want to thank you very much,

1179
01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Caitlin for coming on and talking about this. Unfortunately, the

1180
01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:46.399
<v Speaker 2>least Wiel didn't join us.

1181
01:09:47.439 --> 01:09:49.640
<v Speaker 7>I didn't even know until right before I called you

1182
01:09:49.760 --> 01:09:51.079
<v Speaker 7>that she wasn't going to be able to make it,

1183
01:09:51.119 --> 01:09:54.359
<v Speaker 7>and I know she really wanted to, so her I'm

1184
01:09:54.399 --> 01:09:59.239
<v Speaker 7>sure she's uh, she's uh. She had a, like I said,

1185
01:09:59.279 --> 01:10:01.520
<v Speaker 7>a personal situation that crept up all of a sudden.

1186
01:10:01.640 --> 01:10:04.560
<v Speaker 7>So anyway, we both thank you for inviting a song

1187
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:07.359
<v Speaker 7>and letting letting me talk about the book, and I

1188
01:10:07.479 --> 01:10:10.439
<v Speaker 7>hope everybody out there will pick up a copy and

1189
01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:11.319
<v Speaker 7>read it.

1190
01:10:13.119 --> 01:10:14.840
<v Speaker 2>For those that might want to look. Do you have

1191
01:10:14.920 --> 01:10:17.840
<v Speaker 2>a website or Facebook page for this? Tell us about that.

1192
01:10:18.760 --> 01:10:22.880
<v Speaker 7>Sure, I have a website, Caitlin Rother dot com. Uh

1193
01:10:23.319 --> 01:10:26.720
<v Speaker 7>lease has a Facebook page LESE. Wheel. I also I

1194
01:10:26.800 --> 01:10:30.319
<v Speaker 7>have two an author page and uh personal page people.

1195
01:10:30.439 --> 01:10:35.720
<v Speaker 7>They're both public, We're both on Twitter, and I'm also

1196
01:10:35.840 --> 01:10:39.880
<v Speaker 7>on Instagram as well, And there's plenty of information out there,

1197
01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:42.119
<v Speaker 7>and you know, there are groups, like I said on

1198
01:10:42.239 --> 01:10:46.119
<v Speaker 7>Facebook if you want to know even more after reading

1199
01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:52.000
<v Speaker 7>the book and your your opinions are are peaud There's

1200
01:10:52.000 --> 01:10:54.199
<v Speaker 7>a lot of people out there with a lot of opinions.

1201
01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:56.560
<v Speaker 8>That may differ from what.

1202
01:10:56.600 --> 01:10:58.399
<v Speaker 7>You get in the book. So there's a little bit

1203
01:10:58.399 --> 01:10:59.399
<v Speaker 7>of everything out there.

1204
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:03.159
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, Again, I want to thank you very much for

1205
01:11:03.239 --> 01:11:06.039
<v Speaker 2>talking about hunting Charles manson The Quest for Justice in

1206
01:11:06.119 --> 01:11:09.359
<v Speaker 2>the Days of Helter Skelter. Congratulations on a fascinating and

1207
01:11:09.520 --> 01:11:11.880
<v Speaker 2>fabulous book. Thank you very much for Kaitlyn.

1208
01:11:12.920 --> 01:11:15.000
<v Speaker 7>Don't talk to you soon the next next round.

1209
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:18.600
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely talk to you against him. Thank you, good night,

1210
01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:19.319
<v Speaker 2>by bye.

1211
01:11:25.039 --> 01:11:25.079
<v Speaker 7>H