WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott. And this

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<v Speaker 1>is La Not So Confidential, the Forensic psychology and True

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<v Speaker 1>crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Each week we explore the intersection of psychology, the criminal

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<v Speaker 2>justice system, and entertainment.

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<v Speaker 1>Today our episode is on the forensic psychtopic of attachment

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<v Speaker 1>disorder and the role it plays in criminal behaviors.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back, everybody, Happy New Year. Here's to resilience, recovery,

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<v Speaker 2>rejuvenation during twenty twenty five, Doctor Shiloh, Are you ready

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<v Speaker 2>for the Year of the Snake? And Chinese horoscopes say

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<v Speaker 2>that those that are born in the year the horse

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<v Speaker 2>will do well in the year of the upcoming snake,

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<v Speaker 2>the wood snake. I believe so you'll have a bright

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<v Speaker 2>financial year with married couples, possibly welcoming a new child,

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<v Speaker 2>and a good chance of getting a promotion. How do

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<v Speaker 2>those sound.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not the kind of snake I'm looking for. No,

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<v Speaker 1>why would you all that? Well, both those things are wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>I am off to spending way too much money this year.

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<v Speaker 1>I will be eating top ramen for the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty five. No, that's that's cool.

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<v Speaker 3>So what I.

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<v Speaker 1>Mean, what's in it for you? What does it say

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<v Speaker 1>for the tiger I am.

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<v Speaker 4>I used to like, what was it?

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<v Speaker 1>Some I got it?

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<v Speaker 2>I got the horoscope wrong years ago and thought I

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<v Speaker 2>had I'm born in the Year of the Tiger, right

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<v Speaker 2>I was.

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<v Speaker 4>Supposed to be.

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<v Speaker 2>I thought I was a metal tiger, which is one

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<v Speaker 2>of my email names, and then I find out now

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a water tiger.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know. It's all a much a gobbledygook. But

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<v Speaker 4>it's supposed to be a good year for me.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh good, okay, and I tend to do better in

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<v Speaker 2>odd years, so I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>This is it, this is your year.

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<v Speaker 4>It's the little pillow of delusion I sleep.

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<v Speaker 1>On every night, I know, and then sometimes you roll

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<v Speaker 1>over and mercury retrograde is right there in your side.

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<v Speaker 4>Damn it, that's why everything's going wrong.

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<v Speaker 1>I got doctor Scott a Christmas ornament this year that says,

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<v Speaker 1>what does it say?

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<v Speaker 4>Blame it on mercur.

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<v Speaker 1>Blame it on mar retrograde. Yep, yep, yep.

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<v Speaker 2>Made of heavy cast metal, so I could use it

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<v Speaker 2>as a like knuckles if I wanted to brass nuck.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to hang it at the very top of

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<v Speaker 1>the tree where those really are. Well with that, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>should we take a moment to talk about how twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five will look for LA Not So Confidential?

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, absolutely so.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So moving forward, starting with today, you will get

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<v Speaker 1>one new forensic psych related episode and then the second

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<v Speaker 1>episode of the month is going to be our Behind

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<v Speaker 1>the Couch session from either the previous month or the

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<v Speaker 1>current month. We'll let you know at the end of

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<v Speaker 1>this episode what's coming up, and just kind of depends

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<v Speaker 1>on the time of recording because we work with our

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<v Speaker 1>guests to kind of fit their schedule, so we don't

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<v Speaker 1>know exactly you know, which week we end up talking

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<v Speaker 1>to them live, but that will be what is coming

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<v Speaker 1>your way. So still two episodes a month, with the

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<v Speaker 1>occasional bonus or two parter you know, when the inspiration

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<v Speaker 1>hits us. You can still catch Behind the Couch live

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<v Speaker 1>streams well live if you follow our YouTube channels or

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<v Speaker 1>social media, so make sure you are plugged into those

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<v Speaker 1>to know when they come up live if that is

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<v Speaker 1>your jam.

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<v Speaker 3>To watch it.

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<v Speaker 1>But for those of you who prefer to listen only,

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<v Speaker 1>it will be in your regular feed. So for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean very recently, some people had missed that John

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<v Speaker 1>Benet discussion on Live stream that I did with Rebecca

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<v Speaker 1>Sebastian in twenty twenty one, and we just put it

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<v Speaker 1>out a week ago and people are really glad to

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<v Speaker 1>catch it and hear it and had totally missed it.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think you know this lens to Also, what

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<v Speaker 1>about our Patreon members. You are still going to get

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<v Speaker 1>everything early and ad free. Plus you're going to get

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<v Speaker 1>those extra shrink Wrap sessions that Scott and I do,

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<v Speaker 1>and hopefully one or both of us will do some

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<v Speaker 1>more of those Discord Voice channels, which is really a

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<v Speaker 1>video channel. If you're at the intern or doctoral levels,

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<v Speaker 1>you can catch those. I played around with that last

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<v Speaker 1>month too, just kind of impromptu, told everybody I was

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<v Speaker 1>jumping on in an hour or so and had some

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<v Speaker 1>folks join and it was kind of cool. We did

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<v Speaker 1>more John Benay after documentary debriefs, so it's really nice

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<v Speaker 1>to get on there and chat every once in a while.

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<v Speaker 1>So again, as we've said before, just because we are

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<v Speaker 1>slowing down, you know, professionally, some things have changed. I

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<v Speaker 1>am now on a state board for hostage and crisis

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<v Speaker 1>negotiations for the next two years. We have to ebb

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<v Speaker 1>and flow with our bandwidth.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, same thing for me, my position has changed to

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<v Speaker 2>working still within legal system and a forensic capacity, but

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<v Speaker 2>doing more court work and being a subject matter expert.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's a radical shift, but one also that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>really excited about sort of getting the neurons crackling again.

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<v Speaker 2>I think totally shifting and change is good for everybody,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is one of them. And I'm so unbelievably

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<v Speaker 2>grateful for the experience of the last seven and a

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<v Speaker 2>half years that I had working in tandem with law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 2>It's been just an eye opener, and you know, I've

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<v Speaker 2>really I've been able to put my foot into a

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<v Speaker 2>world and get some some real respect and really achieve

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<v Speaker 2>some accomplishments that I never had even dreamed of a

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<v Speaker 2>decade ago, which was really great.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, we're all proud of you. Keep us posted, Oh

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<v Speaker 1>thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>And I would also just want to add to the

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<v Speaker 2>discussion about our Patreon channel is that I won't speak

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<v Speaker 2>for you, doctor Shoe for myself, okay, but when I'm

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<v Speaker 2>on there is a little bit more of freedom in

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<v Speaker 2>how I can engage and I'm a little you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you think I'm opinionated on the podcast, I'm a lot

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<v Speaker 2>more direct in it.

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<v Speaker 4>On the Patreon.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think that that gives our listen steners at

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<v Speaker 2>that level a little bit of a more expanded experience

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<v Speaker 2>sure of the work that we do and our perspective

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<v Speaker 2>on things. So join us over there if you want to,

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<v Speaker 2>even at the lowest level. We always appreciate and are

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<v Speaker 2>still just very very grateful to have our Patreon going

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<v Speaker 2>and thank you all for supporting us for all these years,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, going with this as we continually shift

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of make adjustments for both of us working slightly,

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<v Speaker 2>if not majorly, over a regular forty hour week. Oh yes,

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<v Speaker 2>oh yes, So let me just jump into a recap

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<v Speaker 2>of last episode.

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<v Speaker 4>For the last couple of.

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<v Speaker 2>Weeks we dropped special bits included doctor Shiloh and the

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<v Speaker 2>brilliant Rebecca Sebastian of Dialogue on the topic of Jean

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<v Speaker 2>Benet Ramsey from twenty twenty one, and like you said, wow,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean like it's three and a half years ago

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<v Speaker 2>that you guys recorded that, and now it's back in

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<v Speaker 2>the news with a lot of controversy, a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>discussion and also just as much like bullshit flying back

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<v Speaker 2>and forth as there was back in the day. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think that This was like a really great grounding

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<v Speaker 2>little footnote to put in and sort of reorient our

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<v Speaker 2>listeners to it. And then we also were able to

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<v Speaker 2>add our live show from the Berkshire's Podcast Festival and

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<v Speaker 2>our most recent episode on the intersection of the Delphi

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<v Speaker 2>murder trial along with the topic of digital ethics and

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<v Speaker 2>our profession. I know, it sounds like a wild combination, right.

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<v Speaker 2>We got a lot of responses from that episode that

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<v Speaker 2>will probably end up generating a shrink wrap stream to

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<v Speaker 2>address many of the questions. Again, please join us over

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<v Speaker 2>on Patreon for more of that discussion if you haven't

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<v Speaker 2>had a chance to listen to it, highly highly recommend it.

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<v Speaker 2>I tried to control my soapbox, but it's another example

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<v Speaker 2>of when someone just goes off the rail and our

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<v Speaker 2>profession something that really Doctor Shiloh and I just at

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<v Speaker 2>this point we have to contain our rage and just

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<v Speaker 2>like roll our eyes that these things happen, right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, what are you going to do? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, what are you going to do? We

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<v Speaker 1>can talk about it, We can discuss it in ways

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<v Speaker 1>that pertain to our tradecraft when it comes to ethics

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<v Speaker 1>and guidelines and just help people understand that, so I

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<v Speaker 1>think it was a little mix of both.

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<v Speaker 3>Definitely not rage.

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<v Speaker 1>There was not rage there.

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<v Speaker 2>But well on you like I have you either, I

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<v Speaker 2>have a raging kitten inside me.

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<v Speaker 4>There you go.

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<v Speaker 2>So with all of that, Doctor Shiloh, what do Richard Ramirez,

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<v Speaker 2>Ted Bundy, Henry Lee Lucas, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Eileen Warnos

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<v Speaker 2>all have in common? I mean, aside from the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that they are recycled over and over and over again

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<v Speaker 2>in the true crime environment, besides the obvious to any

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<v Speaker 2>devotee of the subject of true crime, what do they

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<v Speaker 2>have in common?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't know. That really doesn't narrow it down.

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<v Speaker 2>True, But because we've been asked for the past few

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<v Speaker 2>years to focus on today's topic, we should drill down

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<v Speaker 2>into one of the fundamental aspects, the nurture aspect of

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<v Speaker 2>personality development, nature versus nurture. Today, we're really gonna be

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<v Speaker 2>talking about primarily nurture issues attachment disorder, particularly when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to radically unstable childhoods and the chronic possibility of abuse, abandonment, neglect,

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<v Speaker 2>or even just the perception of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, So let's start with an overview of attachment theory

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<v Speaker 1>Attachment theory explains how early relationships with caregivers shape in

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<v Speaker 1>individuals emotional development, as well as their social behaviors and

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<v Speaker 1>their ability to form and maintain relationships throughout life. Proposed

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<v Speaker 1>by John Bulby, the theory emphasizes the evolutionary role of attachment,

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<v Speaker 1>the emotional glue between a parent and child, as a

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<v Speaker 1>mechanism to ensure survival by keeping infants close to their

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<v Speaker 1>primary caregiver. The quality of this attachment has been shown

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<v Speaker 1>over the years to profoundly influence the child's emotional wellbeing

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<v Speaker 1>and psychological resilience, which goes on to affect major parts

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<v Speaker 1>of the individual life as an adult, really in all

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<v Speaker 1>areas of interpersonal relationships and their view of themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>So while there have been enormous contributions to research into

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<v Speaker 2>attachment theory over the years, the OG pioneers in this

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<v Speaker 2>area are as you said, doctor Shiloh, John Bolby, as

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<v Speaker 2>well as Mary Ainsworth, Mary Maine, Judah Solomon, and Harry Harlowe.

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<v Speaker 2>Each of them used Bolby's foundation and built on it

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<v Speaker 2>further to expand the model. This is one of these examples, folks,

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<v Speaker 2>of what we've talked about many times in the show

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<v Speaker 2>of people. We as clinicians would not be able to

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<v Speaker 2>do our work without unbelievably directed and intense research into

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<v Speaker 2>particular areas of our field, and this is absolutely one

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<v Speaker 2>of those times. John Bolby was a psychodynamic researcher that

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<v Speaker 2>was trained under Melanie Klein and he specialized in child psychiatry,

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<v Speaker 2>with training at the Tavistock Clinic in London during the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirties where he worked with children and families. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>Bulby was able to merge empirical observations with psychoanalytic theory,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was something that was very new at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>like taking this kind of amorphous talk therapy theories and

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<v Speaker 2>ideas and concepts and actually do some real research with it, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>And he led to this idea of what's now called

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<v Speaker 2>attachment theory. He asserted that attachment behaviors like crying or

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<v Speaker 2>clinging in infants and young children are biologically programmed into

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<v Speaker 2>humans and animals to keep infants safe. So he proposed

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<v Speaker 2>three different attachment styles.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>So Mary Ainsworth went on to expand Bulby's theory by

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<v Speaker 1>developing additional empirical methods to study attachment and invents, most

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<v Speaker 1>notably the Strange Situation procedure. If it's at all possible

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<v Speaker 1>for you to do this, listeners, please take a short

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<v Speaker 1>break from this podcast and search YouTube for the animated

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<v Speaker 1>video regarding the Strange Situation. It isn't necessary for listening

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<v Speaker 1>to the rest of the show, but it is fascinating.

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<v Speaker 1>You'll find a link in our show notes. We'll also

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<v Speaker 1>put in links with actual footage of some of these

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<v Speaker 1>experiments taking place. So the Strange Situation is one of

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<v Speaker 1>those really seminal masters and doctoral level psychology lectures that

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<v Speaker 1>kind of levels you up in terms of understanding human behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>If you don't have time today, let me briefly break

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<v Speaker 1>down what was found. So imagine being a baby.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, are you right there with you?

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<v Speaker 1>No, not here, take that up with your therapist.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh noted, Oh believe me, different decades of work in

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<v Speaker 2>my area.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, wow, tam I already okay, yeah, exactly. So the

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<v Speaker 1>Strange Situation was and continues to be, a structured observational

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<v Speaker 1>study designed to assess attachment styles and infants aged twelve

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<v Speaker 1>to eighteen months, and the study involves a series of

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<v Speaker 1>eight short episode where the infant experiences separations and then

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<v Speaker 1>reunions with their caregiver in a novel environment. So again,

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<v Speaker 1>imagine being a baby just kind of chilling in a

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<v Speaker 1>room of toys when a sort of friendly but also

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<v Speaker 1>sort of suspicious stranger suddenly shows up. And remember you're

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<v Speaker 1>a baby. Your caregiver then leaves, and you're like, wait,

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<v Speaker 1>where are you going? And then just as you're kind

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<v Speaker 1>of huffing and squirming and fully considering a total meltdown,

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<v Speaker 1>your caregiver parent returns acting calm collected, like nothing happened.

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<v Speaker 1>And this situation is carefully repeated with a number of

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<v Speaker 1>slight differences. So one time the caregiver is in like

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<v Speaker 1>directly in the line of sight of the baby as

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<v Speaker 1>they leave. Another time they kind of slip out of

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<v Speaker 1>the room when the baby's distracted. Sometimes there are more

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<v Speaker 1>distractions than others. Sometimes a stranger is seen entering the room,

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<v Speaker 1>and then other times they just slip in again with

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<v Speaker 1>the baby completely unaware. So this test is the ultimate

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<v Speaker 1>like who is your safe person and how are you

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<v Speaker 1>going to react? A little bit of a challenge for

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<v Speaker 1>those babies, and it measures how they handle caregiver separation,

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<v Speaker 1>the reunion and the general awkwardness of stranger danger. So

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<v Speaker 1>from these experiments, all of which were viewed and filmed

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<v Speaker 1>through two way mirrors, the three then what came to

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<v Speaker 1>be four attachment styles emerged. Some babies were seen to

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<v Speaker 1>be cool throughout the various scenarios, which we now call

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<v Speaker 1>securely attached. Some babies clearly gave their caregivers the cold shoulder,

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<v Speaker 1>which is known as avoidant, and others go full dramatic meltdown,

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<v Speaker 1>which is called ambivalent, although it doesn't really sound ambivalent

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<v Speaker 1>at all.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the message is kind of clear.

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<v Speaker 1>And then, of course with any classification set, there are

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<v Speaker 1>the wildcards, and these would be the baby who freeze

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<v Speaker 1>or do something totally unpredictable, and we call that disorganized.

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<v Speaker 1>So quickly the three initial categories were secure, insecure, avoidant,

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<v Speaker 1>and insecure ambivalent or resistant or sometimes it's called anxious.

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<v Speaker 1>Not to be confusing, but I know we're already there,

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<v Speaker 1>so we'll move on from that. But that's a good

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<v Speaker 1>encapsulation of how this all stemmed from some pretty famous experiments.

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<v Speaker 2>So some very important observations emerge from these studies. Number One,

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<v Speaker 2>does the infant or toddler use the caregiver as a

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<v Speaker 2>base for exploration. Secondly, how distressed is that child when

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<v Speaker 2>the caregiver leaves? And then how does the child infant

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<v Speaker 2>respond when the caregiver returns. Those are the three things

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<v Speaker 2>that help give the not diagnosis, but like sort of

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<v Speaker 2>the observation or the name of an attachment style.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, helped put them into who places them into the

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<v Speaker 1>categories based on those three things. So over the decades

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<v Speaker 1>while the strange situation was studied, it has really been

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<v Speaker 1>shown to have significant predictive power. Researchers have found that

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<v Speaker 1>attachment styles identified in infancy are shown to often predict

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<v Speaker 1>future behaviors and relationship patterns. So the infantsibility to regulate

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<v Speaker 1>emotions during separation and then reunion provides really good insights

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<v Speaker 1>into the caregiving environment and resulting attachment style. But beyond infants,

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<v Speaker 1>the variants of the strange situation have been developed to

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<v Speaker 1>study attachment disorder in older children and even in individuals

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<v Speaker 1>with disabilities. So we have come to know that follow

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<v Speaker 1>ups with participants in Ainsworth's studies have shown that early

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<v Speaker 1>attachment styles can influence adult relationship patterns, mental health, and

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<v Speaker 1>even parenting styles.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so here's your takeaway.

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<v Speaker 1>From this SEK one oh one lesson. These styles are

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<v Speaker 1>set at such an early age when frankly, the parents

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<v Speaker 1>themselves are just emerging into adulthood. So I think that's

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<v Speaker 1>a consideration.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, And actually, in researching that for today's episode,

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<v Speaker 2>I really want to make the point that as much

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<v Speaker 2>as I give the og researchers like all this credit

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<v Speaker 2>for developing this paradigm, there wasn't a lot of attention

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<v Speaker 2>paid to the idea of what it meant for parents

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<v Speaker 2>to be young adults because at that age, in the thirties,

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<v Speaker 2>people had children much younger than they do today, and

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<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of sort of closed consideration of

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<v Speaker 2>multicultural issues. And I mean when I say multiculture, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>also talking about sort of the concentric circles of our

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<v Speaker 2>family culture, our neighborhood culture, our church culture, all of

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<v Speaker 2>these things coming to bear. We now have a better

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<v Speaker 2>understanding that's helping us change our perspective on attachment theory.

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<v Speaker 2>But anyway, getting back to the one on one lesson,

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<v Speaker 2>as you were saying, Ainsworth's research inspired both Mary Mayne

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<v Speaker 2>and ju the Solomon to dig even further.

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<v Speaker 4>Down into what are called the wild.

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<v Speaker 2>Cards, and they assert a fourth attachment style that they

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<v Speaker 2>then named disorganized attachment, as well as going on to

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<v Speaker 2>devise what we love, of course, we love ways to

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<v Speaker 2>actually measure things. They devised the adult Attachment interview, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a really valuable tool in assessing attachment patterns in adults. So,

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<v Speaker 2>then Harry Harlowe is well known for his experiments with

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<v Speaker 2>Reesis monkeys, and I'm telling you I still have not

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<v Speaker 2>recovered from this video.

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<v Speaker 4>Did you see it?

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<v Speaker 2>Own? My god?

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<v Speaker 4>I'm guys.

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<v Speaker 2>It's one of the most important important lessons you can

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<v Speaker 2>learn as a mental health provider, but it's also probably

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most disturbing, I think, or at least

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<v Speaker 2>for me personally. So Harlow demonstrated the importance of comfort

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<v Speaker 2>and care and attachment, showing that infants preferred a soft,

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<v Speaker 2>comforting mother or parental figure over one that was providing food.

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<v Speaker 2>Harlowe's work marks another key moment in the education of

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<v Speaker 2>all mental health clinicians. As I said earlier, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>know of any programs that don't have right on hand

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<v Speaker 2>the black and white videos of Harlowe's heartbreaking experiments with

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<v Speaker 2>the monkeys, and you can find them as.

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<v Speaker 4>Well on YouTube.

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<v Speaker 2>In short, Baby Reesi's monkeys were given the option of

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<v Speaker 2>clinging to one of two wire forms within a cage.

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<v Speaker 2>Both of those wire forms are in the shapes of

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<v Speaker 2>mother reesis monkeys. They're larger their monkey shape, they have

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<v Speaker 2>large eyes, they have ears. However, one of the wire

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<v Speaker 2>shapes was completely bare metal with food available at the

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<v Speaker 2>chest for the monkey to feed, like a hamster bottle

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<v Speaker 2>where the monkey could go to for food. The other

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<v Speaker 2>shape was covered in a warm, saw oft, cuddly furry

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<v Speaker 2>material that provided no food. What the experiment found was

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<v Speaker 2>that the baby monkeys would cling to the warmth of

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<v Speaker 2>a familiar caregiver over that of the cold metal when

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<v Speaker 2>despite the danger of starving to death. And that's also

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<v Speaker 2>what was found as these baby monkeys actually starved themselves

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<v Speaker 2>to death because they would not want to leave the

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<v Speaker 2>warmth of the cuddly mother that was warm and felt

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<v Speaker 2>inviting and welcome, right right.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like when I asked my daughter if she wants

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<v Speaker 1>to get out of her warm bed to come eat,

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<v Speaker 1>and she's like, no, I'll just like here and watch

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<v Speaker 1>Gray's anatomy.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll just starve your daughter, is like, is like the

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<v Speaker 2>daughter in this is forty when she won't stop watching

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<v Speaker 2>Lost and she's just sobbing all the time because the

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<v Speaker 2>episodes get satured and they.

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<v Speaker 3>Like cut it off from her.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly so in a nutshell, here's what each attachment

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<v Speaker 1>style suggests. So insecure attachment, the child feels safe and

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<v Speaker 1>confident that their caregiver will respond to their needs. The

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<v Speaker 1>belief here is that these individuals will tend to have

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<v Speaker 1>healthy relationships, emotional regulation, and high self esteem. As observed

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<v Speaker 1>in the strange situation, the infant explores freely, shows distress

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<v Speaker 1>when caregiver leaves, and seeks comfort upon return, and then

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<v Speaker 1>often quickly returns to baseline emotional expression. Right, so what

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<v Speaker 1>you would sort of expect given the situation and is

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<v Speaker 1>able to regulate now. Insecure avoidant attachment presents differently. In

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<v Speaker 1>this style, the child minimizes reliance on the caregiver due

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<v Speaker 1>to the child's perception or belief of the possibility of

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<v Speaker 1>rejection or emotional unavailability from the caregiver. The baby avoids

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<v Speaker 1>or ignores the caregiver and shows little emotional response upon

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<v Speaker 1>their return, basically indicating that the caregiver can't be relied on. So, like,

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<v Speaker 1>why am I going to even bother? And Then these

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<v Speaker 1>individuals as teens and then adults often struggle with intimacy

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<v Speaker 1>and may appear emotionally distant.

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<v Speaker 2>Then we go on to insecure, ambivalent, or resistant attachment,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is where the child exhibits clinginess and difficulty

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<v Speaker 2>trusting the caregiver's availability. In the strange situation, the child

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<v Speaker 2>is highly distressed when the caregiver leaves and ambivalent upon

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<v Speaker 2>their return, seeking comfort but also resisting it. And while

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<v Speaker 2>these individuals as teens and adults may display high emotional reactivity,

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<v Speaker 2>they also can exhibit difficulty trusting others in relationships. Finally,

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<v Speaker 2>disorganized attachment is observed in the strained situation when the

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<v Speaker 2>child displays erratic or confused behaviors like freezing, approaching, or

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<v Speaker 2>withdrawing from the caregiver. And what research has found is

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<v Speaker 2>that these children exhibit contradictory behaviors, often stemming from their

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<v Speaker 2>history of trauma or abuse at this early age. And

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<v Speaker 2>the terrible factor here is that the caregiver is person

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<v Speaker 2>see by the child to simultaneously be a source of

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<v Speaker 2>comfort and fear. The longitudinal studies show that these individuals

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<v Speaker 2>are likely to struggle as children and adults with emotional regulation,

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<v Speaker 2>ideas of self worth, and then solid or healthy interpersonal relationships.

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<v Speaker 2>So look, folks, if you're self diagnosing while listening to this,

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<v Speaker 2>please just stop. I mean it's normal. All of us

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<v Speaker 2>that go into this field are warned not to over

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<v Speaker 2>diagnose ourselves. It's kind of like, you know, it's just

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<v Speaker 2>like a step we all go through, right, but lay

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<v Speaker 2>yourself off the hook for a bit and just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of take it as a chance to learn about this

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<v Speaker 2>wacky theory.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think when this comes up, people might necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>not be diagnosing themselves but previous people they've been in relationships.

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<v Speaker 3>So stop doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>To completely support that, you have no problem with that.

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<v Speaker 2>Diagnose everybody else away, try and avoid.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh okay makes sense now, so again. Attachment theory posits

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<v Speaker 1>that early relationships that children have with their caregivers will

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<v Speaker 1>significantly influence their emotional development and capacity to form healthy relationships.

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<v Speaker 1>It does not necessarily mean that emotional development in one

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<v Speaker 1>particular situation will result in the same concrete outcome at all.

426
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:22.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean, there's just way too many factors involved, including

427
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.079
<v Speaker 1>the child's level of innate resilience, the child's exposure to

428
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.359
<v Speaker 1>higher levels of support from individuals outside the immediate and

429
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:36.119
<v Speaker 1>intimate family dynamic. But it is pretty clear that disruptions

430
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.759
<v Speaker 1>in these early attachments can lead to attachment disorders in

431
00:24:40.839 --> 00:24:45.000
<v Speaker 1>the most challenging of cases. And with the immense body

432
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.160
<v Speaker 1>of literature that includes legitimate research as well as the

433
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.759
<v Speaker 1>more lurid portrayals in true crime, we can have a

434
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:57.119
<v Speaker 1>more insightful observation of the backgrounds of certain criminals and

435
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:00.240
<v Speaker 1>serial killers, and hence the reason we're talking about it today.

436
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:05.079
<v Speaker 1>So for fans of true crime, the following abbreviated list

437
00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:09.200
<v Speaker 1>will likely hold no surprises, but that makes it a

438
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.799
<v Speaker 1>bit easier to look at the factors that we've been discussing.

439
00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:16.559
<v Speaker 1>Just as a quick disclaimer here, I want to say

440
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:19.799
<v Speaker 1>we have kind of intermingled and not not interchangeably. But

441
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.839
<v Speaker 1>you've probably heard us say both styles and diagnoses. So far,

442
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:27.400
<v Speaker 1>attachment styles are not diagnoses, so there are actually no

443
00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:32.960
<v Speaker 1>attachment disorders that formally apply to adults. However, the styles

444
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:37.279
<v Speaker 1>and behaviors exhibited in adulthood can be a result of

445
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:41.000
<v Speaker 1>childhood diagnoses that we are going to cover later in

446
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.519
<v Speaker 1>this episode. So just as we move forward, especially with

447
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:46.559
<v Speaker 1>these examples, I just want people to know that these

448
00:25:46.599 --> 00:25:50.079
<v Speaker 1>aren't diagnoses. That again, you know, we don't slap labels

449
00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:54.240
<v Speaker 1>or diagnoses on folks. We haven't evaluated ourselves.

450
00:25:53.799 --> 00:25:56.559
<v Speaker 2>Right, So we're going to talk about the attachment styles

451
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.680
<v Speaker 2>of sort of some of the more well known subjects

452
00:25:59.720 --> 00:26:03.400
<v Speaker 2>of true crime for the next few minutes. Jeffrey Dahmer

453
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.799
<v Speaker 2>murdered seventeen men and boys between nineteen seventy eight and

454
00:26:06.880 --> 00:26:12.079
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety one. In regard to attachment issues, Dahmer's mother

455
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:16.079
<v Speaker 2>was reported to be very loving and very sentimental and

456
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:21.200
<v Speaker 2>kept keepsakes from his childhood. However, she was challenged by

457
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:25.480
<v Speaker 2>her own mental health issues, including severe depression. Dahmer's father,

458
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:28.720
<v Speaker 2>a research chemist, was often not in the home, and

459
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.440
<v Speaker 2>apparently the birth of a younger brother, who was perceived

460
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:37.000
<v Speaker 2>to be the favorite, only increased family tensions. His parents'

461
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.559
<v Speaker 2>eventual divorce, leading to feelings of abandonment and isolation, were

462
00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:48.359
<v Speaker 2>likely catalysts for existing attachment issues and Dahmer's underlying nascent psychopathy.

463
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:51.319
<v Speaker 2>That is also something to remember as we talk about

464
00:26:51.319 --> 00:26:55.599
<v Speaker 2>these examples. Attachment styles are not the only thing at

465
00:26:55.680 --> 00:27:00.440
<v Speaker 2>play here, but they certainly played an important part of

466
00:27:00.519 --> 00:27:04.359
<v Speaker 2>the development of the drives that drove these criminals. The

467
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:07.599
<v Speaker 2>research can be conflicting, with some writers talking about the

468
00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:12.000
<v Speaker 2>relative normalcy within Dahmer's upbringing while also commenting that one

469
00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:15.200
<v Speaker 2>of his childhood toys was a bucket of animal bones,

470
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:18.160
<v Speaker 2>bleached and dried by both Dahmer and his father as

471
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>a hobby. Dahmer shared in later interviews that his atrocities

472
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:26.400
<v Speaker 2>against his victims were attempts to keep them from leaving,

473
00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:31.759
<v Speaker 2>and that is a drive that would parallel with an insecure, ambivalent,

474
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:36.440
<v Speaker 2>or resistant attachment style. Unstable early attachments may have contributed

475
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.319
<v Speaker 2>to his later inability to form healthy relationships and his

476
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 2>subsequent choices in participating in his specific type of criminal behavior. Again,

477
00:27:45.319 --> 00:27:47.960
<v Speaker 2>there was a lot of other stuff at play, but

478
00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:51.279
<v Speaker 2>I think it's very interesting to put this particular lens

479
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:54.960
<v Speaker 2>on these criminals and see how that played a part

480
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:57.519
<v Speaker 2>in the development of their crime style.

481
00:27:57.720 --> 00:28:01.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, you know, with insecure and pivalent or resistant.

482
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:05.119
<v Speaker 1>It's really stark to kind of listen to his interviews

483
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:07.440
<v Speaker 1>where he said this was what I did was an

484
00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.160
<v Speaker 1>attempt to keep them from leaving. Right, But in relationships

485
00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:13.559
<v Speaker 1>and clients that we work with, I mean that looks differently.

486
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.960
<v Speaker 1>But there's some interesting underlying tones there. It's like the

487
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:21.079
<v Speaker 1>push and pull of like I hate you, I don't

488
00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:24.599
<v Speaker 1>want you to leave me, this back and forth ambivalence,

489
00:28:24.680 --> 00:28:27.079
<v Speaker 1>like it is ambivalence because it's back and forth so

490
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:30.640
<v Speaker 1>much in terms of what we see when people don't

491
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.440
<v Speaker 1>want to end relationships, even if it's toxic, and pulling

492
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:39.279
<v Speaker 1>people back into relationships for the fear of abandonment. It's

493
00:28:39.319 --> 00:28:42.519
<v Speaker 1>just really interesting for us, someone who works with couples

494
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:45.799
<v Speaker 1>at this point, to look at these really extreme examples,

495
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:47.440
<v Speaker 1>but then think about, like, how do I see that

496
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:49.160
<v Speaker 1>just play out in the therapy room?

497
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:52.640
<v Speaker 2>All absolutely for people that never won't come anywhere near

498
00:28:52.720 --> 00:28:56.680
<v Speaker 2>committing to crime, there are these drives as well. And

499
00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:01.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure for some people already with you saying I

500
00:29:01.319 --> 00:29:03.319
<v Speaker 2>hate you, I love you, I hate you, don't leave me,

501
00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:05.960
<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing most of us in the mental

502
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.640
<v Speaker 2>health world would immediately go, well, that sounds like borderline

503
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:11.319
<v Speaker 2>personality disorder. And this is again one of those examples

504
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:15.119
<v Speaker 2>where there's just like this fascinating and holographic three D

505
00:29:15.359 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 2>then diagram of different mental health diagnoses and attachment styles

506
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:26.240
<v Speaker 2>or attachment disorders. It all kind of comes together in

507
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:31.480
<v Speaker 2>very interesting ways. But you can't necessarily say that correlation.

508
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:32.039
<v Speaker 4>Is not causation.

509
00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:35.440
<v Speaker 2>But there is an intersection that is always important to

510
00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:37.519
<v Speaker 2>look at, especially when we're talking about criminals.

511
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:38.279
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

512
00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:40.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can't just hear one behavior and say, oh,

513
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:43.000
<v Speaker 1>this is that. It could be a few things. Hence

514
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:45.119
<v Speaker 1>the reason Scott and I are throwing around the idea

515
00:29:45.160 --> 00:29:49.680
<v Speaker 1>of doing a little part two of how this intersects

516
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.079
<v Speaker 1>with personality disorders and psychopathy.

517
00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:53.960
<v Speaker 3>But with that we.

518
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Then have Eileen Warnos. She was a convicted and executed

519
00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.359
<v Speaker 1>female killer who murdered seven men in Florida between eighty

520
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.079
<v Speaker 1>nine and nineteen ninety. Gosh, that sounds so long ago.

521
00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Now she has been labeled as America's first female serial killer,

522
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:13.119
<v Speaker 1>which we obviously know is not true, and in retrospect,

523
00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:17.359
<v Speaker 1>her crimes are now understood to be heavily sensationalized by

524
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:21.039
<v Speaker 1>the media. She committed her crimes within a brief time

525
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:24.759
<v Speaker 1>frame under circumstances that she claimed were acts of self

526
00:30:24.759 --> 00:30:29.240
<v Speaker 1>defense against violent clients during her time working as a

527
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:32.759
<v Speaker 1>sex worker, so the media's framing of Warnos as a

528
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:38.319
<v Speaker 1>serial killer largely relied on gendered stereotypes and sensational narratives

529
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:43.119
<v Speaker 1>simply painting her as a monstrous anomaly rather than acknowledging

530
00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:48.920
<v Speaker 1>the complexities of her abusive background and situational contexts. This

531
00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:55.279
<v Speaker 1>oversimplification ignored really key distinctions that separate serial killing from

532
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:59.119
<v Speaker 1>reactive or situational violence. I will say, I think this

533
00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.359
<v Speaker 1>over simplification is made about a lot of serial killers,

534
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:08.480
<v Speaker 1>men included, So this entire episode is probably more about

535
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:13.440
<v Speaker 1>not doing that moving forward more than anything. So in

536
00:31:13.480 --> 00:31:17.519
<v Speaker 1>regard to attachment, Warno's experienced extreme instability in her early life,

537
00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:22.359
<v Speaker 1>including her father's incarceration, abandonment by her mother, and left

538
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.880
<v Speaker 1>being raised by her grandparents, where she even further suffered

539
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:30.400
<v Speaker 1>sexual abuse, and frequent attempts to fend for herself in

540
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.799
<v Speaker 1>the woods behind the grandparents' home, where she would flee

541
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:39.319
<v Speaker 1>for safety. The disorganized attachment style seems to be prevalent here,

542
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:44.079
<v Speaker 1>as it is typically associated with a history of severe neglect, abuse,

543
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.039
<v Speaker 1>or inconsistent caregiving. Disorganized attachment arises when a caregiver is

544
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.119
<v Speaker 1>both a source of comfort and fear. So call that

545
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.200
<v Speaker 1>from when we were talking about that earlier, so you

546
00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:57.720
<v Speaker 1>can see how the reported abuse that she suffered at

547
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:03.680
<v Speaker 1>the hands of these now supposed caregivers her grandparents likely

548
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:09.160
<v Speaker 1>created this paradoxical dynamic. This really led to profound relational

549
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.119
<v Speaker 1>difficulties and an inability to trust others. She was reported

550
00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:19.240
<v Speaker 1>to have exhibited intense emotional outbursts, impulsivity, and difficulty forming

551
00:32:19.319 --> 00:32:24.200
<v Speaker 1>stable relationships. Disorganized attachment often presents individuals with a marked

552
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:29.319
<v Speaker 1>inability to regulate their emotions due to the unresolved trauma.

553
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.279
<v Speaker 1>I think it's fair to assert that Warnos's relationships were

554
00:32:34.559 --> 00:32:40.000
<v Speaker 1>tumultuous and marked by mistrust, possibly the fear of abandonment

555
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:44.039
<v Speaker 1>and erratic behavior of people in her life and then

556
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.599
<v Speaker 1>sort of manifesting in her as well. This pattern often

557
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:52.279
<v Speaker 1>stems from disorganized attachment, where individuals yearn for connection but

558
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:57.519
<v Speaker 1>really fear closeness due to those early experiences. However, or also,

559
00:32:58.119 --> 00:33:03.119
<v Speaker 1>Warnos may have also exhibited traits of insecure ambivalent attachment,

560
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:07.880
<v Speaker 1>particularly in her intense need for love and validation that

561
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:11.519
<v Speaker 1>was paired with that fear of rejection. However, the severity

562
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.279
<v Speaker 1>in her early trauma and the abusive nature of her

563
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:21.559
<v Speaker 1>caregivers more strongly suggests disorganize attachment style. Disorganized attachment likely

564
00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:25.319
<v Speaker 1>played a role in Warnos's psychological instability and violent actions.

565
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.319
<v Speaker 1>I think we can say that her difficulty trusting others,

566
00:33:28.480 --> 00:33:31.440
<v Speaker 1>coupled with a deep fear of being or abandon could

567
00:33:31.480 --> 00:33:35.640
<v Speaker 1>have contributed to her extreme reactions to the threats that

568
00:33:35.720 --> 00:33:39.680
<v Speaker 1>she perceived in dangerous situations and then resulted in her

569
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:40.960
<v Speaker 1>taking the lives of these men.

570
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:47.839
<v Speaker 2>Richard Ramirez was known as the Knight's Talker and convicted

571
00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:51.119
<v Speaker 2>of thirteen murders and numerous other assault and property crimes

572
00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.960
<v Speaker 2>committed in California during nineteen eighty four and nineteen eighty five.

573
00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:57.000
<v Speaker 2>While there's not a great deal of information on his

574
00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:00.599
<v Speaker 2>developmental periods during his infancy and toddler years, it is

575
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:04.319
<v Speaker 2>pretty clear that his descent into criminality was profoundly shaped

576
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:08.360
<v Speaker 2>by a radically unstable and abusive upbringing. He was born

577
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:10.280
<v Speaker 2>in El Paso, Texas. He was the youngest of five

578
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.719
<v Speaker 2>children to mixing immigrants. His father, a former Juarez police officer,

579
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:18.599
<v Speaker 2>was prone to violent outbursts, frequently subjecting his children to

580
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:23.159
<v Speaker 2>physical abuse. It is known and confirmed that Ramirez suffered

581
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:26.599
<v Speaker 2>multiple head injuries at a young age, one of which

582
00:34:26.679 --> 00:34:30.719
<v Speaker 2>resulted in a diagnosis of temporal lobe epilepsy. Now by

583
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:32.400
<v Speaker 2>the age of ten, he was exposed to the use

584
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:36.199
<v Speaker 2>of drugs and began his own path of experimentation, much

585
00:34:36.239 --> 00:34:39.679
<v Speaker 2>too young to understand the ramifications, marking the start of

586
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:44.559
<v Speaker 2>a lifelong struggle with substance abuse. Ramirez gravitated to a

587
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.599
<v Speaker 2>pivotal influence during his formative years that at first appeared

588
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:50.320
<v Speaker 2>to be a stable influence, and that was his cousin,

589
00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Miguel Mike Ramirez, and Mike was a decorated Vietnam War veteran.

590
00:34:56.079 --> 00:35:00.400
<v Speaker 2>Mike fascinated the young Richard Ramirez with inappropriate and lordly

591
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:03.400
<v Speaker 2>gruesome tales of torture and violence that Mike claimed to

592
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:09.960
<v Speaker 2>have inflicted upon Vietnamese women, often accompanied by photographic evidence

593
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:14.360
<v Speaker 2>of those atrocities. It's believed that this exposure to violence

594
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:18.360
<v Speaker 2>and sexually oriented material at such a young age, in

595
00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:24.119
<v Speaker 2>tandem with chronic drug use and likely with temporal lobe epilepsy,

596
00:35:24.599 --> 00:35:30.199
<v Speaker 2>had a major impact on desensitizing Ramireds towards cruelty again,

597
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.519
<v Speaker 2>all while under the influence and care of what he

598
00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:37.800
<v Speaker 2>believed to be the one stable relationship that he had.

599
00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:41.719
<v Speaker 2>And when Richard was thirteen years old, he witnessed Mike

600
00:35:41.960 --> 00:35:46.239
<v Speaker 2>fatally shoot his wife during a domestic dispute. This event

601
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:49.639
<v Speaker 2>clearly had at lasting impact on the child's development, further

602
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:55.840
<v Speaker 2>cementing a fascination with violence. Following the incident, Richard's behavior

603
00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:59.920
<v Speaker 2>grew increasingly erratic. He withdrew from his family, delved deep

604
00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:03.079
<v Speaker 2>for into substance of use, and developed an interest in

605
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:07.239
<v Speaker 2>the occult and allegedly into Satanism, leading to sort of

606
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:11.360
<v Speaker 2>a perspective on an attachment style as disorganized based on

607
00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:13.239
<v Speaker 2>the expression of violence.

608
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:17.760
<v Speaker 1>So Ted Bundy was a man who confessed to thirty

609
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.440
<v Speaker 1>homicides across several states during the nineteen seventies. In the

610
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.360
<v Speaker 1>abundant material available about Bundy's upbringing, he too was reported

611
00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:30.880
<v Speaker 1>to have experienced a confusing and unstable early family environment,

612
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:35.639
<v Speaker 1>including being raised by his grandparents under the pretense that

613
00:36:35.679 --> 00:36:38.400
<v Speaker 1>they were his parents and his mother was his sister.

614
00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:42.960
<v Speaker 1>The context of the time is necessary, as this type

615
00:36:43.000 --> 00:36:49.320
<v Speaker 1>of familial deceit was not well terribly uncommon, but definitely

616
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:53.119
<v Speaker 1>not discussed and generally shrouded in a lot of shame.

617
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:56.519
<v Speaker 1>His behaviors grew more erratic through his toddler years, with

618
00:36:56.559 --> 00:36:59.800
<v Speaker 1>his aunt sharing years later an incident where she woke

619
00:36:59.880 --> 00:37:02.639
<v Speaker 1>up to find three year old Ted standing by the bed,

620
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:06.360
<v Speaker 1>smiling at her and the multiple knives that he had

621
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:10.119
<v Speaker 1>surrounded her with. Bundy later indicated that he had harbored

622
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:13.599
<v Speaker 1>resentment towards his mother and grandparents for concealing the truth.

623
00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:18.639
<v Speaker 1>As a teenager, Bundy had significant challenges in social interactions,

624
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:23.280
<v Speaker 1>describing himself as unable to understand in our personal relationships,

625
00:37:23.719 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 1>although the media has portrayed him as this charming inseduct

626
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:31.159
<v Speaker 1>of man. And I think that's really interesting, being unable

627
00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:36.039
<v Speaker 1>to understand in our personal relationships. Like it's such a clinical,

628
00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:41.239
<v Speaker 1>stark way of describing it, but I think says a lot.

629
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:42.519
<v Speaker 4>Really does.

630
00:37:42.760 --> 00:37:45.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or as much as it says, I think it

631
00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:48.960
<v Speaker 2>opens the door to so many other questions that are

632
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:52.800
<v Speaker 2>diagnostic in nature. And again, we just have to peace

633
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:55.519
<v Speaker 2>through all the media bullshit about it, right.

634
00:37:55.360 --> 00:37:57.920
<v Speaker 1>Exactly exactly, but yeah, you take a quote like that,

635
00:37:58.079 --> 00:38:02.199
<v Speaker 1>and again not to compare ourselves, but someone like you

636
00:38:02.239 --> 00:38:04.000
<v Speaker 1>and I would be like, man, I just don't feel

637
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:06.639
<v Speaker 1>what other people feel when they're like in love, and

638
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:09.639
<v Speaker 1>he's just like, yes, I don't understand this, Yeah, what

639
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:13.000
<v Speaker 1>is this thing you people are doing? So Bundy's behaviors

640
00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:17.800
<v Speaker 1>from childhood characterized by a combination of things like fear, confusion,

641
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:24.519
<v Speaker 1>and contradictory behaviors in relationships. Again, we're going to posit

642
00:38:24.599 --> 00:38:28.480
<v Speaker 1>that that points to a disorganized attachment style for this man.

643
00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.960
<v Speaker 2>Henry Lee Lucas was a convicted serial killer who claimed

644
00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:36.559
<v Speaker 2>to have murdered hundreds of victims, though only a handful

645
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:39.000
<v Speaker 2>were confirmed, and there remains to this day a great

646
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:44.719
<v Speaker 2>deal of controversy about the really poor investigative work done

647
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.599
<v Speaker 2>by law enforcement across the country because so many law

648
00:38:48.679 --> 00:38:53.400
<v Speaker 2>enforcement agencies were eager to pen their unsolved crimes on him,

649
00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:56.480
<v Speaker 2>and he willingly went a wrong with it because he

650
00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:00.840
<v Speaker 2>was getting reinforced with cigarettes and chocolate mal and the

651
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:03.360
<v Speaker 2>treats that he got from the local restaurants. Born in

652
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:07.079
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty six in then rural Blacksburg, Virginia, Lucas is

653
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.760
<v Speaker 2>reported to have experienced a childhood that was challenged by abuse, neglect,

654
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:14.639
<v Speaker 2>and trauma. He was raised by his abusive mother, Viola Lucas,

655
00:39:14.679 --> 00:39:20.360
<v Speaker 2>and his largely incapacitated father, Anderson Lucas. He endured relentless

656
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:24.400
<v Speaker 2>physical and emotional harm at the hands of his mother,

657
00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Viola frequently subjected him to brutal beatings, including one incident

658
00:39:28.440 --> 00:39:30.960
<v Speaker 2>where he struck him with a wooden plank, causing a

659
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:34.440
<v Speaker 2>traumatic brain injury that resulted in a three day coma.

660
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.639
<v Speaker 2>Viola is reported to also have forced Henry to witness

661
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.800
<v Speaker 2>her engaging in sex work while his father, a double

662
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 2>amputee and full blown chronic alcoholic, was unable to provide

663
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:49.360
<v Speaker 2>any kind of protection or emotional support. Neglect was pervasive.

664
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.800
<v Speaker 2>For instance, Lucas lost an eye due to an untreated

665
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:56.960
<v Speaker 2>injury inflicted by his brother. Lucas's upbringing likely led to

666
00:39:57.000 --> 00:40:01.679
<v Speaker 2>a disorganized attachment style, which again is by a simultaneous

667
00:40:01.719 --> 00:40:06.599
<v Speaker 2>need and fear of caregivers. This attachment style typically arise

668
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:10.239
<v Speaker 2>in the environments where caregivers are sources of both comfort

669
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:13.199
<v Speaker 2>and threat. And I would also say in wrapping up

670
00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:21.039
<v Speaker 2>this little section about examples that disorganized attachment styles or

671
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.239
<v Speaker 2>ambivalent attachment styles do not mean that you're going to

672
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:27.000
<v Speaker 2>grow up to be a criminal. It's just a factor

673
00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:31.760
<v Speaker 2>that is apparently common in some of the most prolific

674
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:36.679
<v Speaker 2>killers that we've seen. So again, correlation is not causation.

675
00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:40.719
<v Speaker 2>We're just pointing out some very interesting factors about upbringing

676
00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:45.880
<v Speaker 2>and how some of these events may have been the

677
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:50.599
<v Speaker 2>lit match that is thrown on the pile of gasoline soaklogs.

678
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're just we're looking backwards. I mean, both doctor

679
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:56.800
<v Speaker 1>Scott and I work with everyday people who have insecure

680
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:59.639
<v Speaker 1>attachment styles. I mean, when you just look at the

681
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.960
<v Speaker 1>general population, about fifty to sixty percent of people have

682
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:06.360
<v Speaker 1>a secure attachment style. So we're looking at half the population,

683
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:09.679
<v Speaker 1>forty percent to half the population who do not. So

684
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:12.400
<v Speaker 1>we're again, we're not wanting to pathologize, we're merely just

685
00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:13.199
<v Speaker 1>setting a foundation.

686
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:15.639
<v Speaker 2>No. In fact, let me let me tell on myself

687
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:19.039
<v Speaker 2>as someone who has been in therapy for literally decades,

688
00:41:19.840 --> 00:41:24.039
<v Speaker 2>and I have been using treatment modalities sort of across

689
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:28.400
<v Speaker 2>the spectrum. You know, I've used eclectic modalities. I've you know,

690
00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:32.239
<v Speaker 2>like gone all in on attachment styles.

691
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:33.920
<v Speaker 4>I've gone all in on.

692
00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:37.800
<v Speaker 2>Object relations, that kind of thing. I understand now that

693
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:42.159
<v Speaker 2>I have a lot of that insecure, avoidant attachment stuff

694
00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:47.039
<v Speaker 2>going on, and it gets very complex for us as individuals,

695
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:49.079
<v Speaker 2>especially if you do a lot of inner work, if

696
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:50.760
<v Speaker 2>you journal, if you go to therapy, if you do

697
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:55.119
<v Speaker 2>this kind of mindful observation of your own challenges. It's

698
00:41:55.159 --> 00:41:59.320
<v Speaker 2>all about context, because on one hand, I can tell

699
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:02.360
<v Speaker 2>someone that's sitting across from me in my room. I

700
00:42:02.360 --> 00:42:04.159
<v Speaker 2>can say, well, you know what, you had a really

701
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:08.719
<v Speaker 2>great boundary with this relationship. You saw this relationship as

702
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:12.000
<v Speaker 2>toxic and you removed yourself from that, and that is

703
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:16.559
<v Speaker 2>really good. Now that's a possibility. The other possibility is

704
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:19.920
<v Speaker 2>that this is a person that really can't tolerate any

705
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of conflict in a relationship and they immediately shut

706
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:28.039
<v Speaker 2>down and they leave the relationship. I myself have been

707
00:42:28.119 --> 00:42:33.320
<v Speaker 2>that person and learning sort of tolerance distress tolerance skills

708
00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:37.519
<v Speaker 2>has been a big challenge for me. So the boundary

709
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.039
<v Speaker 2>thing worked for me for years. It's like, yep, you're

710
00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:42.360
<v Speaker 2>a piece of crap. I'm done, and now I have

711
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:46.280
<v Speaker 2>a much more i would say, balanced and nuanced view

712
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.440
<v Speaker 2>of relationships that's probably more healthy.

713
00:42:49.840 --> 00:42:52.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, you got there.

714
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:56.920
<v Speaker 3>But thank you for the self disclosure, right.

715
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:59.519
<v Speaker 1>No, I mean this is a I kind of love

716
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:02.800
<v Speaker 1>that we're starting out with something like so psychobabbally for

717
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:06.239
<v Speaker 1>the first episode of the year, because it's an example

718
00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:08.960
<v Speaker 1>how a lot of the time what we do on

719
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.840
<v Speaker 1>this show is we take a topic or phenomenon or disorder,

720
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:16.800
<v Speaker 1>and we look backwards through that lens at criminal behavior,

721
00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:19.800
<v Speaker 1>but it's not the be all explanation of everything. And

722
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:22.800
<v Speaker 1>if we kind of talked in the middle of all

723
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:25.039
<v Speaker 1>of these venn diagrams that we have built on top

724
00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:27.440
<v Speaker 1>of each other for seven years, you wouldn't be able

725
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:29.559
<v Speaker 1>to I wouldn't be able to understand any of it.

726
00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:33.320
<v Speaker 1>It would just so it's it's very intentional to take

727
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:37.440
<v Speaker 1>these topics, look backwards and then always always say, but

728
00:43:37.519 --> 00:43:40.840
<v Speaker 1>this isn't everything right, There's so many other factors. So

729
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:43.639
<v Speaker 1>with that, there's still plenty of research and theoretical support

730
00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:48.119
<v Speaker 1>for inspecting where these intersections of insecure attachment styles and

731
00:43:48.280 --> 00:43:51.800
<v Speaker 1>childhood trauma overlap. When we're looking backwards at a serial

732
00:43:51.880 --> 00:43:56.039
<v Speaker 1>killer's life, abuse and neglect in early childhood are common

733
00:43:56.119 --> 00:44:00.320
<v Speaker 1>themes in the backgrounds of many serial killers, and many

734
00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:04.559
<v Speaker 1>serial killers have histories of severe childhood trauma, which again

735
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:08.400
<v Speaker 1>can shape personality and then contribute to the development of

736
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:13.239
<v Speaker 1>mental health issues and ways in which they view other people.

737
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:17.159
<v Speaker 1>And then sort of separately from that theory is how

738
00:44:17.239 --> 00:44:22.800
<v Speaker 1>attachment theory is conceptualized in criminology, where the research indicates

739
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:27.000
<v Speaker 1>the insecure attachment styles, often resulting from early abuse or neglect,

740
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:32.519
<v Speaker 1>are prevalent among criminal offenders. Individuals with anxious, ambivalent, or

741
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:38.320
<v Speaker 1>anxious avoidant attachment styles may struggle with emotional regulation, impulse control,

742
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:43.719
<v Speaker 1>and empathy, all factors that we absolutely look at when

743
00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:47.719
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to look at recidivism of criminal behavior or

744
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:50.000
<v Speaker 1>maybe what led up to that first time of them

745
00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:51.280
<v Speaker 1>engaging in criminal behavior.

746
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:52.480
<v Speaker 3>So those are.

747
00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:59.039
<v Speaker 1>Really concrete things that can be documented and measured in

748
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:02.880
<v Speaker 1>the history of someone who's engaging in those acts. And

749
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:05.920
<v Speaker 1>then lastly, there is research that supports a nexus with

750
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:10.199
<v Speaker 1>attachment disorders and criminal behavior. Again, as we move into

751
00:45:10.280 --> 00:45:15.280
<v Speaker 1>talking about attachment disorders, it's important to note that while

752
00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:18.920
<v Speaker 1>these disorders can be a contributing factor, again, they don't

753
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:23.119
<v Speaker 1>determine criminal behavior just on their own. We need to

754
00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:27.920
<v Speaker 1>continually think about a combination of genetics, environment, and the

755
00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:31.719
<v Speaker 1>other psychological factors that typically influence such outcomes.

756
00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:33.599
<v Speaker 4>So a lot to think about, folks.

757
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:37.719
<v Speaker 2>Again, it's a heady, heady psychobabble episode with some concrete

758
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:41.679
<v Speaker 2>examples of a concept that many people have requested over

759
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:44.519
<v Speaker 2>the last few years. We're going to wrap this up

760
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:48.000
<v Speaker 2>because we're already pushing an hour. We're going to wrap

761
00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:52.199
<v Speaker 2>this up as part one of this episode, but do

762
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.679
<v Speaker 2>not stress out. We're not going to make you wait

763
00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:58.320
<v Speaker 2>another entire week for an episode. We're going to do

764
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:00.840
<v Speaker 2>something that we really haven't done before. I think maybe

765
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:03.599
<v Speaker 2>we've done it once before, maybe it's hard to remember

766
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:05.880
<v Speaker 2>at this point. But what we're going to do is

767
00:46:05.960 --> 00:46:11.719
<v Speaker 2>we're going to drop part two, which is another full hour, tomorrow,

768
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:16.000
<v Speaker 2>so again it'll just download regularly like you always get

769
00:46:16.039 --> 00:46:20.480
<v Speaker 2>your episodes. That then we'll be digging down further into

770
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:26.599
<v Speaker 2>specific attachment styles that actually do turn into attachment disorders.

771
00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:27.400
<v Speaker 3>Yep.

772
00:46:27.519 --> 00:46:31.239
<v Speaker 1>So we will see you guys tomorrow on La Not

773
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:32.880
<v Speaker 1>So Confidential.

774
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:34.480
<v Speaker 4>Guys, be right back, folks.

775
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:52.280
<v Speaker 1>Bye, We sincerely thank you for spending some time with

776
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:54.440
<v Speaker 1>us today La Not So Confidential. As part of the

777
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:57.920
<v Speaker 1>crawl Space Media Network. Each episode is hosted, produced, and

778
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:00.800
<v Speaker 1>written by doctor Scott and Doctor Shiloh. Our post production,

779
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.000
<v Speaker 1>editing and sweetening magic is handled by the multi talented

780
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:06.360
<v Speaker 1>Jason Usri of ear Cult Productions.

781
00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Our theme music, entitled Cool Vibes Film Noir, is composed

782
00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:13.480
<v Speaker 2>and performed by the talented Kevin McLoud. He graciously allows

783
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:16.719
<v Speaker 2>us to use his music via a Creative Commons attribution license.

784
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.599
<v Speaker 2>Please check out all of Kevin's amazing work on YouTube.

785
00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:22.239
<v Speaker 1>All of the resources for each episode can be found

786
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:26.480
<v Speaker 1>on our website at La dash not dash soo dash

787
00:47:26.519 --> 00:47:30.280
<v Speaker 1>confidential dot com. You can find us on Instagram at

788
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:33.639
<v Speaker 1>La Nosa Podcast, on x at La not sopod, and

789
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:37.159
<v Speaker 1>on Facebook at La not So Confidential. Media inquiries and

790
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:41.199
<v Speaker 1>bookings are scheduled at Alienist Entertainment at gmail dot com.

791
00:47:41.239 --> 00:47:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Once a month, we go live on YouTube on Saturday afternoon,

792
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.360
<v Speaker 2>so pay attention to our social media announcements to join

793
00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:51.119
<v Speaker 2>our interactive broadcast entitled Behind the Couch, where we interview

794
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.599
<v Speaker 2>guests on a number of psych criminal justice, and true

795
00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:54.320
<v Speaker 2>crime topics.

796
00:47:54.400 --> 00:47:56.960
<v Speaker 1>And lastly, we'd be honored if you joined our Patreon

797
00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:01.199
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798
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:05.400
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799
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.119
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800
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:11.719
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801
00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for listening and join us next time on La

802
00:48:14.920 --> 00:48:16.760
<v Speaker 2>Not So Confidential.