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Speaker 1: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 1: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 1: written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker VTK every
Speaker 1: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 1: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 1: host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 3: Good Evening, a haunting account of the sixteen years when
Speaker 3: a young Jamie Gearing and her family live closer than
Speaker 3: anyone to Ted Kaczinski, the Unibomber. As a child of Lincoln, Montana,
Speaker 3: Jamie Gearing and her family shared their land, their home,
Speaker 3: and their dinner table with a hermit with a penchant
Speaker 3: for murder. But they had no idea that the odd
Speaker 3: recluse living in the adjacent cabin was anything more than
Speaker 3: a disheveled man who brought young Jamie painted rocks as gifts.
Speaker 3: Ted was simply ted and erratic behavior. Surprise visits and
Speaker 3: chilling events while she was riding horses or helping her
Speaker 3: dad at a sawmill were dismissed because he was just
Speaker 3: the odd hermit. In fact, he was much more. Ted
Speaker 3: alluded the FBI for seventeen years while mailing explosives to strangers,
Speaker 3: earning the infamous title of Unibomer. In Gering's investigative quest
Speaker 3: twenty five years later to reclaim a piece of her
Speaker 3: childhood and to answer the questions why how, she recalls
Speaker 3: what were once innocent memories and odd circumstances that become
Speaker 3: less puzzling in hindsight the innocence of her youth, rob
Speaker 3: Gering needed to reconcile her lived experience with the evil
Speaker 3: that hidden plain sight in this book, through years of
Speaker 3: research probing Ted's personal history, his writings, his secret coded
Speaker 3: crime journals, her own correspondence with him and his supermac's
Speaker 3: prison cell, plus interviews with others close to Kazinski, gearing
Speaker 3: on Earth's the complexity, mystery, and tragedy of her childhood
Speaker 3: with the Madman in the Woods, and she discovers a
Speaker 3: shocking revelation she and her family were in Kazinski's crosshairs.
Speaker 3: A work of intricately braided research, journalism, and personal memories,
Speaker 3: this book is a chilling response to the question do
Speaker 3: you really know your neighbor? The book that we're featuring
Speaker 3: this evening is Madman in the Woods Life next Door
Speaker 3: to the Unibomber with my special guest journalist and author
Speaker 3: Jamie Gering. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 3: much for this interview.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me, Thank.
Speaker 3: You so much for joining us with this incredible tale.
Speaker 3: Madman in the world woulds. Let's get right to this
Speaker 3: and as you discussed in the beginning of this book,
Speaker 3: you explained the relationship the proximity with life next door
Speaker 3: to the Unibarmer. But it's start and in its connection
Speaker 3: to nature and the comfort and adventures you had in
Speaker 3: nature and in your childhood, and then this relationship with
Speaker 3: Ted next door. So tell us a little bit about
Speaker 3: how close the proximity you were to Ted's cabin and
Speaker 3: just the relationship you had with your family and this
Speaker 3: little area that you describe in the book.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, in nineteen seventy one, my grandfather, who owned
Speaker 2: close to nine thousand acres of ranch land, sold a
Speaker 2: small plot of land to Ted and David Kazinski, specifically
Speaker 2: one point four acre, and Ted Kazinski, otherwise known as
Speaker 2: the Unibommer, ended up building his cabin there. Our famili's
Speaker 2: ranch land surrounded his property. In the late seventies early eighties,
Speaker 2: my father and mother built their log cabin just under
Speaker 2: a quarter mile away from Kazinski's plot of land, and
Speaker 2: so in rural Montana, this was actually very close, honestly,
Speaker 2: as neighbors go. Specifically in that area. It was very isolated,
Speaker 2: of course, where Ted Kaczinski was living, and very secluded.
Speaker 2: It was about four miles away from town. And when
Speaker 2: I say town, it is the town of Lincoln, Montana,
Speaker 2: approximately one thousand residents. There is not even a stoplight
Speaker 2: that changes color from red de green. It is a
Speaker 2: blinking yellow, tiny little town. And honestly, my childhood was
Speaker 2: looking back, and that was a really great part of
Speaker 2: writing this. It was so beautiful to grow up that
Speaker 2: way in nature and you know, building forts and being
Speaker 2: in complete isolation. And that's definitely a question that I
Speaker 2: asked myself through the book, is how could these beautiful
Speaker 2: woods inspire me the way they have and nurture me
Speaker 2: while isolating and you know, darkening our neighbor, the unibomber.
Speaker 3: You talk about the first step in your you called
Speaker 3: Journey of Exploration started at the local library in Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 3: Tell us about your beginning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, since Ted Kaczynski's arrest in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 2: I've always wanted to tell this story. I've always wanted
Speaker 2: to write this book, and knowing that my father had
Speaker 2: a part in the investigation, of course, inspired me that
Speaker 2: much further. And when I started researching after I decided
Speaker 2: I'm finally going to do this, it took years to
Speaker 2: read about the accounts that I wasn't present for the
Speaker 2: FBI's investigation, for instance, and even Ted's own brother, David
Speaker 2: Kaczinski's account. And so it really began in the library
Speaker 2: in Denver, Colorado, with me checking out every book that
Speaker 2: I could find about Ted and just trying to really
Speaker 2: place myself in those narratives that again I just wasn't
Speaker 2: present for.
Speaker 3: Now, you go back in this book and you start
Speaker 3: with the first impressions of this odd hermit next door
Speaker 3: and you were four years old. So take us back
Speaker 3: to this scenario where you lived and how you lived
Speaker 3: in your family lived, and your first meeting with Ted
Speaker 3: and your interaction with him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my first memory of Ted was when I
Speaker 2: was around four years old and we were living in
Speaker 2: our little log cabin that my parents had built. I
Speaker 2: was outside playing as I did all the time, by
Speaker 2: myself and it was just another typical day out in
Speaker 2: rural Montana, and all of a sudden I saw Ted
Speaker 2: coming towards the home. And at that time, he was
Speaker 2: still a bit more like his appearance was a bit
Speaker 2: more like the Berkeley professor than the Ted Kaczynski you
Speaker 2: see when he was arrested. Yes, he still he did
Speaker 2: definitely have his hair was disheveled, and he looked like
Speaker 2: he lived off the land as a hermit would, but
Speaker 2: he didn't have that more terrifying appearance as he did
Speaker 2: when I was much older. So when I saw him
Speaker 2: coming towards me, I was excited, just as I always
Speaker 2: was when Ted, when Ted would come by the home.
Speaker 2: And I remember just very very vividly the feelings that
Speaker 2: I had when I was a kid, and specifically in
Speaker 2: this encounter he had. He had brought me painted rocks
Speaker 2: as a gift, and I was so excited and so
Speaker 2: appreciative of these beautiful creations. I mean, I loved rocks,
Speaker 2: and I thought it was so thoughtful that he had
Speaker 2: painted them for me and took the time to bring
Speaker 2: me bring me a present. So that first memory was
Speaker 2: was very fond, and that was difficult for me to
Speaker 2: reconcile as an adult. How I could have such a
Speaker 2: soft memory of an encounter with a killer.
Speaker 3: Let's get back to your research and the materials that
Speaker 3: you had to read. You say it took years because
Speaker 3: there was so much material. Everybody knows about the manifesto
Speaker 3: thirty five thousand words, but you started with other materials.
Speaker 3: Tell us about some of those materials and what you
Speaker 3: began to learn about Ted Kazinski.
Speaker 2: Yes, so there was a memoir that was written by
Speaker 2: David Kaczynski, and I started with that. It was more
Speaker 2: of a personal account of what it was like to
Speaker 2: grow up with Ted, and that's, you know, initially what
Speaker 2: I was looking for, is that personal part of the narrative.
Speaker 2: And then in addition, I had read a book, I
Speaker 2: believe it's Robert gray Smith's book about the unibomber, and
Speaker 2: it was a very journalistic approach. It was his crimes
Speaker 2: and his background, and that was, you know, very interesting.
Speaker 2: And then there was another book written by co authored
Speaker 2: by FBI agent Max Noll about the hunt for the
Speaker 2: unibomber and the investigation. And then after I read those books,
Speaker 2: I read Ted's own autobiography, which is essentially a PDF
Speaker 2: that he has written of his own accounts and his life.
Speaker 2: So that was that was also, you know, very very interesting.
Speaker 2: And then I started to read Ted's journals, and so
Speaker 2: when I say journals, there are notebooks that were found
Speaker 2: in the cabin after Ted's arrest, and it's truly his
Speaker 2: innermost thoughts. It's also details of his crimes, but it's
Speaker 2: day to day what his life looked like, what he
Speaker 2: thought about, what he was reading, what he was hunting,
Speaker 2: what he was eating. And it really gave me a
Speaker 2: very intimate look into what my neighbor was doing and
Speaker 2: thinking all of those years while we lived so close by.
Speaker 3: You mentioned David, his brother's personal account. What did you
Speaker 3: learn about Ted's background and for example, his school background
Speaker 3: and his motivation for moving to this isolated place.
Speaker 2: So what I learned about Ted's background was I had
Speaker 2: heard that the accounts of Ted being separated as a
Speaker 2: baby from his family in the hospital, and you know,
Speaker 2: I was able to glean a little more intel, I
Speaker 2: suppose on that particular event in his life. It took
Speaker 2: place while he was only nine months old and a
Speaker 2: very vulnerable age as far as development and separation anxiety.
Speaker 2: So that was that was an interesting look into I
Speaker 2: suppose the making of this man. And then through school
Speaker 2: I learned that Ted was on an accelerated schedule, He
Speaker 2: was advanced a grade, he graduated early, He graduated at
Speaker 2: sixteen and went off to Harvard. So and he had
Speaker 2: always felt very isolated, I suppose from his peers, and
Speaker 2: not able to truly relate. And of course that is
Speaker 2: understandable given a bit of his background. You know, obviously
Speaker 2: there was probably some mental illness that was present there
Speaker 2: as well, and so you know, through the years, really
Speaker 2: those experiences, although individually seem small, really shaped who he
Speaker 2: was and who he is. And of course we all
Speaker 2: know then he went to Harvard at sixteen, and you
Speaker 2: know there was some questionable experiments that were done there,
Speaker 2: and you know that of course also seemingly fueled him.
Speaker 2: And he does write even in nineteen seventy one when
Speaker 2: he purchased the property from my family, he writes about
Speaker 2: his motivation for moving to the small parcel of land.
Speaker 2: He writes about his motivation for revenge and how he
Speaker 2: was fueled by anger. So it was very obvious even
Speaker 2: in those early years what Ted Kazinski's intentions were.
Speaker 3: You mentioned, this was very interesting to learn about these
Speaker 3: humiliation experiments, knowing how powerful just reading the initial title
Speaker 3: humiliation humiliation experiments and knowing how much humiliation is a
Speaker 3: major factor, and a lot of the most serious killers'
Speaker 3: backgrounds tell us about these experiments.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's not a lot available on these particular experiments.
Speaker 2: But what I did find is that Ted Kasinc Was
Speaker 2: a part of, as you said, these humiliation experiments where
Speaker 2: basically the student was asked to write down their personal ideals,
Speaker 2: their beliefs, and sort of in an essay form. They
Speaker 2: were submitted and then they were brought back in to
Speaker 2: debate these and defend their most personal beliefs. And really
Speaker 2: what happened is they were paired against a successful interrogator.
Speaker 2: And really, for Ted Kaczinski specifically, I believe so much
Speaker 2: of his own personal worth was tied to his intelligence
Speaker 2: and having someone break down his thoughts and beliefs was
Speaker 2: particularly destructive to him. It was a stressful situation. You know,
Speaker 2: they were measuring heart rate, they were looking at a
Speaker 2: solid mirror, so they couldn't passed. They knew there were
Speaker 2: people watching them, and they were measuring the stress response
Speaker 2: when people were placed in these types of positions. And
Speaker 2: again for Ted specifically, he was at a vulnerable age.
Speaker 2: He was, you know, sixteen seventeen. He was a minor
Speaker 2: when this was happening, and he already felt isolated and
Speaker 2: different because of his background. This was just one more
Speaker 2: thing that pushed him into isolation.
Speaker 3: I suppose you mentioned, but we haven't talked about. But
Speaker 3: I think it's important and you think it's important as well.
Speaker 3: Is this rash in this hospitalization at nine months I believe,
Speaker 3: So tell us what ensued and what do you think
Speaker 3: it seems was the result.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, when Ted Kaczynski was nine months old, he
Speaker 2: developed a rash all over his body. Case of hives
Speaker 2: is what it seemed to be, and his mother did
Speaker 2: what any mother would do and rushed him to the hospital.
Speaker 2: The staff took him. They were scared that his airways
Speaker 2: might close, and so they were treating him. And you know,
Speaker 2: back in those days, they didn't allow the parents to
Speaker 2: stay with the children or the babies at this particular hospital,
Speaker 2: and so he was separated from his caregiver, his constant,
Speaker 2: and he was put on basically like splints so that
Speaker 2: he wouldn't scratch this rash all over his body and
Speaker 2: In my research, I found that his mother always harkened
Speaker 2: back to this specific event even in his adulthood. She
Speaker 2: was writing letters to him, trying to connect still while
Speaker 2: he was in that little cabin in Montana, and referencing
Speaker 2: this event and telling him that this changed him. And
Speaker 2: she thinks that's where the hatred that he held for
Speaker 2: his parents really stemmed from, because she had to leave
Speaker 2: him and he was alone, and he changed after that,
Speaker 2: she said. When he went into the hospital, he was
Speaker 2: meeting milestones and this happy, friendly, bouncy baby boy. And
Speaker 2: after the experience, she says, basically, he was a dead
Speaker 2: lump emotionally and had more of an institutional look and
Speaker 2: it took a long time to get even just a
Speaker 2: part of that baby Ted back.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about Ted and the effect of this
Speaker 3: early hospitalization had on him, according to his mother, Now
Speaker 3: he had a family. There was typical family, a loving family,
Speaker 3: it seemed, and so they seemed to understand Ted and
Speaker 3: his peculiar arities, and they were supportive of Ted moving
Speaker 3: to this isolated place and this cabin. So tell us
Speaker 3: what your family their response was to this new neighbor
Speaker 3: and some of the things that your understanding father and
Speaker 3: mother did with this new neighbor and how they considered him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in rural Montana, it is not alarming to have
Speaker 2: a neighbor that lives off grid or chooses to live
Speaker 2: more of an isolated life. And so when Ted had
Speaker 2: moved to Montana and started developing a relationship with my
Speaker 2: father and my mother, they took him for what he
Speaker 2: seemingly was. And anytime they would have him over for
Speaker 2: dinner or play cards with him, and you know, spend
Speaker 2: spend time as neighbors do, and they would start talking,
Speaker 2: you know, asking personal questions like you would where you're from,
Speaker 2: things about your family. Ted would always deflect, and he
Speaker 2: would respond with answers that were very much on the surface.
Speaker 2: And my parents, from those experiences with him, just thought
Speaker 2: he must have a pained past or you know, possibly
Speaker 2: another theory was that he was a disenfranchised vet. I mean,
Speaker 2: there was something that he didn't want to talk about,
Speaker 2: and so they really respected that this neighbor of theirs
Speaker 2: needed space and he was a little bit eccentric, but they,
Speaker 2: you know, they he seemed like he was peaceful and
Speaker 2: shy and reserved and even kind in those early years,
Speaker 2: So you know, they they again, they had him over
Speaker 2: for dinner. They would even my parents did. My mom
Speaker 2: and father did get divorced and my father remarried, and
Speaker 2: those later years, even with my stepmother and my father,
Speaker 2: they would bring Ted firewood or they would offer to
Speaker 2: have him work at the mill. And you know, in
Speaker 2: the in the early years, Ted helped build certain parts
Speaker 2: of our home and helped my father and they traded labor.
Speaker 2: So through the years, there were so many things that
Speaker 2: you know, my parents tried to do for this seemingly
Speaker 2: man of the mountains.
Speaker 3: One thing you didn't mention is that your father went
Speaker 3: further and offered the tools and the shops that he
Speaker 3: operated and used and offered those to Ted to use
Speaker 3: any tools and to use these structures whenever he needed it,
Speaker 3: didn't he.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my dad was very generous and what always
Speaker 2: helped his neighbors out. But specifically it was another neighbor,
Speaker 2: Chris Waites, who really opened up his workshop to Ted
Speaker 2: and his welding equipment, any sort of tools that he needed,
Speaker 2: even his land, which he owned quite a bit of
Speaker 2: property in a place called McClelland Gulch, which is just
Speaker 2: about a mile away from where we were five miles
Speaker 2: from town specifically, and that really allowed Ted the resources
Speaker 2: that he needed for bomb building and even for additional isolation,
Speaker 2: because he was building bombs and testing bombs in our
Speaker 2: backyard but also in Chris's backyard. And he even had
Speaker 2: a cabin that he had built on Chris's land in
Speaker 2: McLellan Gulch in case he needed to run and hide.
Speaker 2: And so these very trusting people in this really tight
Speaker 2: knit community in Montana were really fooled by this man.
Speaker 3: You say that you interviewed Chris Waits in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 3: and he has a book of Unibomber, The Secret Life
Speaker 3: of Ted Kazinski or what did he say to you
Speaker 3: in that interview?
Speaker 2: So Chris actually was able to really shed some light
Speaker 2: on the early years. And you know, in nineteen you know,
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies, especially the later seventies, Chris and Ted
Speaker 2: were friends. And you know, as much as I suppose
Speaker 2: Kazinski would befriend someone, they would take rides into town together.
Speaker 2: Chris would pick him up and they would talk. They
Speaker 2: would talk about the books they were reading or the
Speaker 2: hikes that Ted had recently gone on, and they had
Speaker 2: formed a relationship of friendship together, and of course for
Speaker 2: obvious reasons, as the years went on, that friendship definitely
Speaker 2: did dissolve. But that was a really interesting perspective for
Speaker 2: me to hear, is that Ted Kaczynski that was again
Speaker 2: a little bit closer to the Berkeley professor than the
Speaker 2: unibomber that you conjure up when you when you think
Speaker 2: of Ted. And so it was. It was just a
Speaker 2: look into a different perspective. I suppose a friend the
Speaker 2: early the early Ted while he was still in his
Speaker 2: early years of domestic terror, but he resembled the man
Speaker 2: that that many actually had known still. So in addition
Speaker 2: to that he did he did share with me the
Speaker 2: years that followed, which were much more terrifying. He shared
Speaker 2: his dogs being stabbed and poisoned and killed through the years,
Speaker 2: his wife meeting Ted in the woods without actually knowing
Speaker 2: that it was Ted, but later realizing it had to
Speaker 2: be him because of what she felt. You know. There
Speaker 2: were even times that he shared with me that Ted
Speaker 2: would be outside of their home watching them late at night.
Speaker 2: And so there were, as the years ticked on, some
Speaker 2: really horrifying events that Chris was able to share with me.
Speaker 3: One part of your book that is even more telling
Speaker 3: and revealing is in nineteen seventy eight, Ted returns to
Speaker 3: Chicago to work with his brother at a factory foam
Speaker 3: cutting engineers. What happens here? He leaves this cabin nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy eight, he goes to Chicago. What happens in terms
Speaker 3: of romance or potential romance and work at this factory?
Speaker 3: How does it all work out?
Speaker 2: Ted did reach out to Illinois in seventy eight, and
Speaker 2: you know, the motivation behind that is still unclear. Whether
Speaker 2: he needed money for funding or if he needed to
Speaker 2: be around his family were not quite clear on. But
Speaker 2: he did return and he started working with his brother
Speaker 2: and at the factory, and he found a love interest
Speaker 2: by the name of Ellen Turmichael. And it had been
Speaker 2: quite some time since Ted had spent time with a woman.
Speaker 2: They had gone on a few dates together. They went
Speaker 2: apple picking, and he took her out to a French
Speaker 2: restaurant for dinner, and then she broke it off and
Speaker 2: it really destroyed Ted. And again, it wasn't a serious relationship,
Speaker 2: it was only a few dates, but it really affected him,
Speaker 2: and even his brother remembers Ted just completely shutting down
Speaker 2: after Ellen called it quit, and Ted was so filled
Speaker 2: with anger that he posted limericks about Ellen, who also
Speaker 2: worked at the factory, all around the factory, about a
Speaker 2: limerick about her body, and it was I mean. David
Speaker 2: Kaczynski was appalled and of course made Ted take down
Speaker 2: the limericks. But then the next day another one was
Speaker 2: up and David had to fire his brother, and of
Speaker 2: course that just made the fire inside of Ted grow
Speaker 2: and he actually it was found that Ted had planned
Speaker 2: to disfigure Ellen. He had set up a meeting to
Speaker 2: talk to her, and he had a knife hidden in
Speaker 2: a paper bag with planned to attack her, and they did.
Speaker 2: They were able to talk and his as he explains,
Speaker 2: I think he specifically says something like his anger fizzled
Speaker 2: out and he didn't feel the need anymore to hurt her. Thankfully.
Speaker 3: He talked to his mother about this. It was such
Speaker 3: a traumatic event to him. And the woman had said
Speaker 3: when he confronted her and asked what the problem was,
Speaker 3: is that she said he lacked social confidence and that
Speaker 3: she was just interested. He said, well, why do you
Speaker 3: go out with me but just interested in you? Because
Speaker 3: I've never been with a person like you. So he
Speaker 3: talked to his mother about this event and this lack
Speaker 3: of social confidence and social skills and never felt the
Speaker 3: love of a woman. He talked to his mother.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in his autobiography later, when he's talking about
Speaker 2: this event, he mentions that Ellen had said that you
Speaker 2: lack confidence socially, and he made it's like, this may
Speaker 2: be true, but still a mean thing to say. And so,
Speaker 2: you know, again looking back on Ted's history and you know,
Speaker 2: his childhood and just kind of the isolation that he
Speaker 2: experienced growing up and his feeling of just being awkward
Speaker 2: around his peers and not really connecting and not being able,
Speaker 2: you know, being younger, he wasn't really a candidate for
Speaker 2: the girls to be dating in his grades, and so
Speaker 2: he always felt just a little a little off, a
Speaker 2: little different. And I think that this was very obvious
Speaker 2: with the relationship with Ellen, and it most likely you know,
Speaker 2: affected him as an adult as well, and being uncomfortable
Speaker 2: in that sort of situation and maybe feeling a little
Speaker 2: more vulnerable when he was, you know, broken up with.
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Speaker 3: You say your parents split, and then you talk about
Speaker 3: the library, and you talk about Ted and this garden,
Speaker 3: this huge garden he had. So he's in his more
Speaker 3: still normal, more so normal phase and you see him
Speaker 3: at the library. Tell us about some of these interactions
Speaker 3: you have with Ted at this time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in the early eighties, even mid eighties, there
Speaker 2: were plenty of times where we had interactions with Ted.
Speaker 2: And although he was still a hermit and he was
Speaker 2: still very much isolated, he would come by the house.
Speaker 2: He would come into town. He would go to the
Speaker 2: library and read, and sometimes when my dad and I
Speaker 2: would stop by, he would be there and we would
Speaker 2: offer him a ride, and you know, sometimes he would stay. Sure,
Speaker 2: sometimes he was on his bike and say no, thank you.
Speaker 2: And he would definitely come into town for supplies. He
Speaker 2: would come into the grocery store, and you know, he
Speaker 2: was a fixture in our small community. People, although didn't
Speaker 2: have close relationships with him, they all knew him and
Speaker 2: would see him, especially walking in and out of town
Speaker 2: or on his bike, and he was just to everybody.
Speaker 2: He was just Ted.
Speaker 3: What was happening with Ted's development and enacting revenge via
Speaker 3: bomb making at this time.
Speaker 2: So in Ted's own development, those early years of bomb
Speaker 2: making were, as the FBI described, his bombs were very primitive.
Speaker 2: They were match heads and you know, some gunpowder, and
Speaker 2: they weren't I hate to say it this way, but
Speaker 2: these are Ted's. They weren't as successful as he would
Speaker 2: have hoped. They were maiming people, but they weren't killing people.
Speaker 2: That is what Ted dedicated himself to. He took years
Speaker 2: off of sending bombs to develop bombs that would be lethal,
Speaker 2: and reading his journals. If he were to only maim
Speaker 2: someone when he intended to kill someone, he would be
Speaker 2: disappointed and he would write about that. So as the
Speaker 2: years progressed, his bombs definitely became more I suppose effective
Speaker 2: to him and advanced. And again that is just that
Speaker 2: is what he committed his time and his life to.
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Speaker 3: we were talking about the development of Ted and his
Speaker 3: as you provide with excerpts from the journal, he took
Speaker 3: time off to be able to develop the lethality of
Speaker 3: these He was disappointed that they weren't more effective in
Speaker 3: killing his targets. So let's talk about some of the
Speaker 3: things that he complained about that he was obsessed about,
Speaker 3: such as jet noise and technology, and then some of
Speaker 3: the targets and the people that he targeted for murder.
Speaker 2: So Ed would write in his journals about not being
Speaker 2: able to escape society or completely remove himself from the
Speaker 2: social machine, even when he was hiking in the woods,
Speaker 2: he would run into people, or he would hear the
Speaker 2: noises of jets, or he would hear the noise of
Speaker 2: my father's sawmill that was very close to his property.
Speaker 2: There were sometimes people who had come into our own
Speaker 2: property to help my father log or to later on
Speaker 2: to my father least mineral rights for some time. And
Speaker 2: so Ted would complain about the outsiders and people in
Speaker 2: general and seeing them in the woods, and so it
Speaker 2: was clear that these types of interactions would I don't
Speaker 2: know if they would fuel him more, but they definitely
Speaker 2: justified his violence. And the strange thing about this particular
Speaker 2: case is that Ted was complaining about industry, about technology,
Speaker 2: and his targets were very indiscriminate, like there was. He
Speaker 2: was attacking universities, and yes, he was directly attacking airlines.
Speaker 2: He tried to blow up Flight four four four in
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. He was throughout the years though, still
Speaker 2: sending bombs and placing bombs at universities and to trying
Speaker 2: to injure and kill people that, looking back on now,
Speaker 2: were really trying to do really incredible things for humanity.
Speaker 2: And it is it's strange to see the different types
Speaker 2: of targets that Ted had, and again he was getting
Speaker 2: his information from directories that he would read and choosing
Speaker 2: targets in that fashion. I mean, there wasn't he wasn't
Speaker 2: using the Internet, there wasn't Google. He was perusing these
Speaker 2: different directories and finding people that he thought were really
Speaker 2: representing these industries that he wanted to destroy, and in
Speaker 2: reality he injured and killed many innocent people that again
Speaker 2: were trying to better other people's lives and humanity as
Speaker 2: a whole.
Speaker 3: You talk with Max Noell from the FBI, and you
Speaker 3: find out some disturbing things because the initially in this
Speaker 3: you say that you were a naive and you tried
Speaker 3: to find an understanding of how this person, this hermit,
Speaker 3: this innocent, seemingly odd person, hermit that gave you the
Speaker 3: four painted rocks as a present, and you saw him
Speaker 3: and interacted with him many times, as did your family.
Speaker 3: Max Noell informed you and all of the materials that
Speaker 3: you read that your family was in the crosshairs.
Speaker 2: Tell us about this, Yeah, I mean that was a
Speaker 2: very difficult part of writing this because in ninety six,
Speaker 2: when Ted was arrested, there was almost a feeling of
Speaker 2: relief that we had lived My family had lived by
Speaker 2: this man for twenty five years. Sixteen years of my
Speaker 2: life were spent right next to a serial killer, the
Speaker 2: longest running domestic terrorist in United States history. And once
Speaker 2: I really started reading Ted's journals and sat down with
Speaker 2: FBI agent Max no I discovered that we were in
Speaker 2: much more danger than originally thought. I guess it was
Speaker 2: a naive assumption that Ted Kaczynski wouldn't be committing acts
Speaker 2: of domestic terror in his own backyard, but he did.
Speaker 2: He was, you know, from smaller things like sabotaging equipment,
Speaker 2: or breaking into a home and destroying somebody's kitchen and
Speaker 2: bathroom and snowmobiles outside, to actually poisoning my dog and
Speaker 2: injuring Chris Waite's dogs, and then too really considering killing
Speaker 2: the people that he lived by. For instance, my stepmother
Speaker 2: discovered after Kazinski's arrest that there was a in which
Speaker 2: Ted had her and my little sister, who was only
Speaker 2: two at the time, in his crosshairs. He was looking
Speaker 2: at both of them through a rifle, considering killing them.
Speaker 2: And so those types of things were really difficult to
Speaker 2: discover and of course to write about.
Speaker 3: You talk about the sabotage with your parents, sawmill and
Speaker 3: some of the other things that you read that were surprising,
Speaker 3: and you had a little motorbike as well, So you
Speaker 3: say that what was most alarming or one of the
Speaker 3: things the most alarming was this neck high fence wire
Speaker 3: booby trap that he had set up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, after Ted's arrest, my father had shared with
Speaker 2: me that there was neck height wire found around our
Speaker 2: prop pretty and of course initially I think it was
Speaker 2: probably my age, you know, I just I thought, oh,
Speaker 2: my gosh, that is really horrible that he was trying
Speaker 2: to kill someone. And then of course later when reading
Speaker 2: his journal entries about admitting, you know, and again when
Speaker 2: he was writing these journal entries, it was like he
Speaker 2: was talking to an audience, which you'll see in my
Speaker 2: book and the ones that I reference. But whoever he
Speaker 2: was telling in these journals, in these notebooks, he was
Speaker 2: admitting to trying to decapitate, trying to kill someone with
Speaker 2: whire that he would string up on a blind corner
Speaker 2: neck high. And of course, as an adult, the realization
Speaker 2: that I was writing my little ninety ninety motorcycle around
Speaker 2: our property on these logging roads, I was lucky to
Speaker 2: be here and not have not have fallen into one
Speaker 2: of those.
Speaker 3: Traps you had to read and you detail in the book,
Speaker 3: but you say that there are other books as well
Speaker 3: that detail the crimes themselves, but you had to read
Speaker 3: the horrific details of what happened to say Scrutton, Howard Scrutton,
Speaker 3: I believe the first, yes, you've pardon me, the first victim,
Speaker 3: and all of the details of the explosion itself and
Speaker 3: all the other attempts he did to main people in
Speaker 3: which he did he mained people, but tried to kill them.
Speaker 3: So while you tried to balance and tried to have
Speaker 3: an understanding of how this could possibly happen, you were
Speaker 3: reading information that just reinforced that he was nothing but
Speaker 3: a possibly immature, but definitely mentally ill psychopaths.
Speaker 2: Yeah, reading about the accounts, even just the statements like
Speaker 2: from the corner when Scrutton was murdered, and then reading
Speaker 2: the victim impact statements, and you know, hearing things like
Speaker 2: in Susan Moser's account of the day that her husband
Speaker 2: was killed and trying to comfort her children who she
Speaker 2: would have to tell that their father was dead, he
Speaker 2: was murdered, and wanting to go back into the house
Speaker 2: to grab her daughter's baby blanket to comfort her, but
Speaker 2: it was soaked in blood. It was I mean, especially
Speaker 2: as a mother, it was horrific to read those words
Speaker 2: and to write about those events and truly the devastation
Speaker 2: that he created and the ripple effect of that not
Speaker 2: only these wives left without a husband, but their children
Speaker 2: left without a father, and all the birthdays, all the
Speaker 2: Christmases through the rest of their lives, they'll have that
Speaker 2: piece of them missing. And to reconcile that it was
Speaker 2: our neighbor, the unibomber ted Kazinski that was inflicting this
Speaker 2: horrific violence and destruction on these families was really devastating.
Speaker 3: You talk about Max Knowell and the FBI, their decision
Speaker 3: to release this manifesto, and this must have been a
Speaker 3: hard decision, a difficult decision. But what was their idea
Speaker 3: by releasing this? And then, despite what people have heard
Speaker 3: about David coming forward, it wasn't exactly David finding out
Speaker 3: who first found out and recognized the unique writing contained
Speaker 3: in this manifesto. But first tell us about Max Noell
Speaker 3: and the plan to release this manifesto.
Speaker 2: Yeah, as we were talking about earlier, part of this
Speaker 2: process for me with the interviews and the research that
Speaker 2: I did was really hearing about those parts of the
Speaker 2: narrative that I wasn't present for. And of course, the
Speaker 2: FBI trying to decide if they're going to publish the
Speaker 2: manifesto from this domestic terrorist was something I wasn't privy
Speaker 2: to until I was able to sit down with Maxnell
Speaker 2: and he shared what it was like to be in
Speaker 2: the FBI investigating the unibomb case at that time and
Speaker 2: what they were really struggling with, which was giving a
Speaker 2: domestic terrorist a voice in the media. And really what
Speaker 2: it came down to finally was they were hoping that
Speaker 2: they would somebody would recognize the specific idioms and the
Speaker 2: thoughts of this terrorist in the manifesto. So it was
Speaker 2: a really difficult decision, but the FBI weighed out the
Speaker 2: consequences compared to the reward and they knew they had
Speaker 2: to catch this person who had been terrorizing this nation
Speaker 2: for seventeen years. So once it was published, it was
Speaker 2: actually not David Kaczynski that recognized the particulars of the
Speaker 2: railing against technology. It was Linda Patrick, his wife, and
Speaker 2: she had to come to her husband David and tell
Speaker 2: him she thought that Ted was the unibomber, which, as
Speaker 2: you could imagine, would be a very difficult position to
Speaker 2: be it.
Speaker 3: Now, from that they finally decided to call the FBI.
Speaker 3: And then what's interesting in this manifesto too, is that
Speaker 3: Kazinski pretends to be part of this Freedom Club and
Speaker 3: pretending that there was an actual number of members in
Speaker 3: this group. So from when they had released this manifesto,
Speaker 3: you write, too, it's very interesting that there was instantly,
Speaker 3: immediately thousands of calls. In fact, you write interestingly, fifty
Speaker 3: nine brothers swore it was their brother, so he ye had.
Speaker 2: That is something that Max Noell shared with me, which
Speaker 2: is it really is just an incredible amount of people
Speaker 2: for one suspects and also this specifically for brothers that
Speaker 2: we were under suspicion that during this time.
Speaker 3: Now with the FBI, it's just not as easy to
Speaker 3: take David's word that this is definitely his brother and
Speaker 3: he's the unibarmer. It's hard to believe for David, it's
Speaker 3: hard to believe for the FBI that's been looking at
Speaker 3: this case for seventeen years. But they still have to
Speaker 3: have a plan, They still have to get a warrant
Speaker 3: and they still have to involve somebody that's close and
Speaker 3: is trusted or is at least not suspected as a
Speaker 3: ne'er do well or someone that's threatening to Ted. So
Speaker 3: tell us about this entire process of your father and
Speaker 3: your family being involved in the takedown of Ted Kaczynski.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this was another part of writing this and
Speaker 2: learning some aspects of this story that I hadn't known
Speaker 2: that was really important to me because my father was
Speaker 2: very private about his part in the case, and as
Speaker 2: I sat across from Max Noell so many years after
Speaker 2: Ted's arrest, he was able to share with me not
Speaker 2: only my father's part in the investigation and the takedown,
Speaker 2: but also Max's innermost thoughts, especially when it came to
Speaker 2: first seeing Ted Kaczynski. So in the months prior to
Speaker 2: Kazinski's arrest, of course, the FBI set up in Lincoln,
Speaker 2: Montana and started kind of their their investigative work as
Speaker 2: to who they were going to work with, how they
Speaker 2: were going to do it, and who they could trust.
Speaker 2: And FBI agent Max Noll was introduced to my father
Speaker 2: by a mutual connection Jerry Burns, who was a Foreign
Speaker 2: Service officer that Max had reached out to and during
Speaker 2: those that first conversation specifically, they were both kind of
Speaker 2: feeling each other out. Max and my father kind of
Speaker 2: both determining if they could trust each other who they
Speaker 2: really were. And you know, Max did tell him he
Speaker 2: was with the FBI and they were researching our neighbor,
Speaker 2: Ted Kaczinski for writing some threatening letters. And you know,
Speaker 2: my dad's initial reaction was kind of like, oh, Ted,
Speaker 2: really that that's really odd. But then as they continued
Speaker 2: their communication and Max knew that he could trust my dad,
Speaker 2: he did tell him that they suspected that Kazinski was
Speaker 2: the unibomber. And of course my dad was shocked. I mean,
Speaker 2: the man that had been living in that little cabin
Speaker 2: next to our family for twenty five years in a
Speaker 2: ten by twelve shock, no running water, no electricity grid,
Speaker 2: surviving on about two hundred dollars a year. He just
Speaker 2: could not reconcile that in his mind. And of course
Speaker 2: then he started thinking about all of the kind of
Speaker 2: strange encounters through the years, and even like his sawmill
Speaker 2: being sabotaged, and what Kazynski stood for, the railing against
Speaker 2: technology and industry, it all kind of it all kind
Speaker 2: of made sense and my dad started coming around to
Speaker 2: the idea that yes, this man was the unibomer And
Speaker 2: so my dad actually offered to take Max up to
Speaker 2: the cabin and get a view of it. Because my
Speaker 2: dad had frequented the area that he Our property surrounded
Speaker 2: Ted's and so it wasn't unusual for my father to
Speaker 2: be up there. So they walked up there, and as
Speaker 2: I talked about in the book, the FBI ended up
Speaker 2: Max Noll ended up getting his first look at Ted
Speaker 2: Kaczynski as our dogs were barking, and Ted exited the
Speaker 2: home for a moment to see what the ruckus was
Speaker 2: all about. That was FBI agent Max Nowell's first look
Speaker 2: at this man that the FBI had been hunting for
Speaker 2: seventeen years, and here he was in this tiny shack
Speaker 2: in rural Montana, completely disheveled, and in no way did
Speaker 2: he resemble what Max had in his mind what this
Speaker 2: man would look like. So that was just a really
Speaker 2: impactful story. I suppose that Max shared with me about
Speaker 2: his first look at the unibomber, and you know, my
Speaker 2: dad's pardon that. And then, of course, as time progressed
Speaker 2: and the investigation did as well, there were their things
Speaker 2: that the FBI asked of my father, and one of
Speaker 2: those very large things being that they needed to get
Speaker 2: an idea of what the terrain, you know, looked like
Speaker 2: around Ted's cabin. And so my father was asked to
Speaker 2: videotape Ted's cabin and the surroundings. And of course, at
Speaker 2: that point he knew that Ted was suspected as being
Speaker 2: a murderer, and he was of course terrified to do that,
Speaker 2: to go up with his handheld video camera. I mean,
Speaker 2: of course, now we have our iPhones, but this was
Speaker 2: the nineties and those camcorders looked a lot different, they
Speaker 2: were much larger. But he did it. He walked up
Speaker 2: there with his camcorder at his hip and videotaped the
Speaker 2: logging roads, the terrain all around Ted's home and his cabin.
Speaker 3: Let's use this as an opportunity, Jamie, to stop for
Speaker 3: a second for these messages. Now, your father was instrumental
Speaker 3: in getting the photo taken and helping them identify where
Speaker 3: this cabin was. And while he was with them, they
Speaker 3: saw their first like they saw Ted Kazinski, this person
Speaker 3: that just wasn't some other image in their mind. But
Speaker 3: your father also offered something else, and that was relative
Speaker 3: to the FBI, what else did your father offer?
Speaker 2: And was a big part of My father was able
Speaker 2: to express to the FBI what Ted what would alarm Ted, because,
Speaker 2: as they would find after Kazinski's arrest, Ted was looking.
Speaker 2: He had a lookout tree. He knew that at some
Speaker 2: point someone could discover who he was, and so he
Speaker 2: was very aware of any outsiders. So my father really
Speaker 2: helped the FBI fit in I suppose. I mean they
Speaker 2: had already they had chosen to rent a rent a
Speaker 2: dent truck, and they were dressed up, you know, like
Speaker 2: they were miners or loggers, and really my dad helped
Speaker 2: them develop that cover and then suggest that, you know,
Speaker 2: a way to get Ted Kazinski out of his cabin
Speaker 2: and able to And I want to add that they
Speaker 2: the FBI really wanted to ensure that it was a
Speaker 2: safe capture and that was that was partly because I mean,
Speaker 2: that's their job, but also it was David Kazinsky's concern
Speaker 2: as well, and you know, there was they didn't want
Speaker 2: a big shootout, they didn't want a Waco situation, and
Speaker 2: so any any way of being able to arrest Ted
Speaker 2: while he was outside of his cabin was what they
Speaker 2: were shooting for. But Ted wasn't leaving his cabin, and
Speaker 2: so they didn't have an opportunity to arrest him. And
Speaker 2: so my father suggested that they approached the cabin and
Speaker 2: let Ted know that they were from this mining company
Speaker 2: that had been leasing the mineral rights on our property
Speaker 2: and that they just needed to confirm property lines. And
Speaker 2: of course Ted was always very, very worried about his
Speaker 2: own personal private property, and they knew that this would
Speaker 2: definitely be a way that Ted would leave his cabin,
Speaker 2: and that is in fact what they did, and it
Speaker 2: did ensure a safe arrest in which Ted Kaczynski left
Speaker 2: unharmed and alive.
Speaker 3: You write about seeing this on the news. Where were
Speaker 3: you and when you saw this? And this person that
Speaker 3: you saw when you were four, you said he looked
Speaker 3: different when you were ten, and relationship was a little
Speaker 3: bit different. You mentioned in the book what about his appearance?
Speaker 2: So I was back in California with my mom when
Speaker 2: Ted was arrested. I had spent the year previous in Lincoln,
Speaker 2: and so I had seen Ted, but I initially heard
Speaker 2: it on the radio, and my dad took the confidentiality
Speaker 2: so seriously on this case that I didn't know what
Speaker 2: was going on. My own stepmother, his wife didn't know
Speaker 2: what was happening, and took basically the day of the arrest.
Speaker 2: So and that was request by the FBI for obvious reasons.
Speaker 2: So I was in complete shock when my radio was
Speaker 2: interrupted with news that Ted Kazinski was suspected as being
Speaker 2: the unibomber and had been apprehended in Lincoln, Montana. I mean,
Speaker 2: I just I think I was in shock. I couldn't
Speaker 2: quite process that information. And you know, in just the
Speaker 2: days after, I watched the news constantly and then was
Speaker 2: finally able to talk to my dad about it, and
Speaker 2: here you know, more of the background and what actually transpired.
Speaker 2: But it was it was just a very pivotal moment
Speaker 2: in my life to see Ted Kaczinski on the news
Speaker 2: in handcuffs. And you know, he had always looked a
Speaker 2: bit disheveled. He had always been eccentric, but in that moment,
Speaker 2: his clothes seemed to be rotting off of him. That
Speaker 2: you know, he was his eyes for so wide, there
Speaker 2: was gray, and his beard and his hair was completely disheveled.
Speaker 2: He looked like a madman. And that that was very
Speaker 2: difficult to process.
Speaker 3: You say in this book, you write that there was
Speaker 3: some correspondence with Ted Kazinski in Florence, Colorado, in prison,
Speaker 3: and the end of this book you tried to come
Speaker 3: to terms with this school when you say you were
Speaker 3: in naive in the beginning. You tried to look for
Speaker 3: some comprehension, some justification, some relation to this person other
Speaker 3: than this nature setting that enthralled your family and you
Speaker 3: and still does and as well as Ted Kazinski. So
Speaker 3: tell us about that coming to terms.
Speaker 2: So I have always wanted to write a life or
Speaker 2: to Ted Kaczinski since his arrest, and I think it
Speaker 2: was probably part of my need for a closure, I suppose,
Speaker 2: and you know, with writing this book, I finally decided
Speaker 2: I wanted to, And yes, I was still in addition
Speaker 2: to that, I was still searching for some kernel of good.
Speaker 2: And yes I had I had already discovered all of
Speaker 2: these horrific detailings of the murders. I had known about
Speaker 2: the killings and the matings. But to see what then
Speaker 2: Ted was writing about them, and how he was motivated
Speaker 2: and fueled by this, and just the sheer violence and
Speaker 2: terror of it definitely allowed me to look at it
Speaker 2: in a different through a different lens, but I was
Speaker 2: still hoping for that just little piece of good. And so,
Speaker 2: you know, I thought, maybe maybe he said he's had
Speaker 2: years and to reevaluate he's been sitting in prison all
Speaker 2: of these years. Maybe he's sorry, maybe he has regrets,
Speaker 2: And it was my attempt to provide closure by writing
Speaker 2: to him and acknowledging the fact that he fooled us,
Speaker 2: and that was really shocking when he was arrested and
Speaker 2: finding out his true identity, and then you know, also
Speaker 2: to find out, you know, if there was remorse, or
Speaker 2: if there was any sort of intelligent commentary still there,
Speaker 2: or you know, maybe his motivations had changed. And that
Speaker 2: was really what fueled me in writing to him.
Speaker 3: What I hadn't mentioned about this book too, is that
Speaker 3: there isn't an amazing photo section. Could you tell us
Speaker 3: some of the photos that are included in this book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this book is it's memoir, it's true crime memoir,
Speaker 2: it's it's my story, my family's story braided with Ted Kazinski's,
Speaker 2: and so I really wanted to add another layer of that,
Speaker 2: allowing the reader to really understand and digest our lives
Speaker 2: in a visual way as well. As brief as that
Speaker 2: may be. And in the book, I have you know
Speaker 2: me as a as a very little kid in my
Speaker 2: innocence in the early eighties. And then alongside that, I
Speaker 2: have Ted Kaczinski as a little kid on his pony,
Speaker 2: and in this, you know, just seemingly normal childhood where
Speaker 2: he was loved and supported and happy. And then I
Speaker 2: also have a picture of young, younger Ted but you know,
Speaker 2: definitely again a little closer to the Berkeley professor than
Speaker 2: the unibomber, arrested in nineteen ninety six, but still active
Speaker 2: in domestic terror, alongside his cabin in Montana, and that
Speaker 2: was taken by his family when they came out to
Speaker 2: visit him in the early eighties. I also show his
Speaker 2: bike that he would ride to and from town. And
Speaker 2: then I have pictures of our family again, my dad
Speaker 2: on the mill alongside our dog, Wilie, who I discovered
Speaker 2: that Ted had poisoned. I have my dad and I
Speaker 2: and then I have my dad with my little sister Tessa,
Speaker 2: who I talk about in the book, and i'm, you know,
Speaker 2: especially in that experience with Ted looking at them through
Speaker 2: the rifle. And then I have me as a cheerleader
Speaker 2: the year before Ted was arrested, and then Ted's arrest
Speaker 2: photos with Max Noll and Tom McDaniel alongside him. Right.
Speaker 3: You Also, there's so much more to this book because
Speaker 3: you detail all of the crimes, You detail the reactions
Speaker 3: from the people at the statements at trial, at Kazinski's trial,
Speaker 3: the heartbreaking statements that you include again outlining the devastation
Speaker 3: that this man single handedly inflicted on a nation for
Speaker 3: seventeen years, and then of course the collateral damage to
Speaker 3: his own family, your family, and anybody that came in
Speaker 3: contact with him. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 3: for coming on and talking about this incredible book, Madman
Speaker 3: in the Woods Life next Door to the Unibarmer Jamie Gearing.
Speaker 3: For those that might want to take a look at
Speaker 3: more information, is there a website or a Facebook page
Speaker 3: or other social media they might look at.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my website is Jamie Gearing dot com and you
Speaker 2: can find me just about anywhere Instagram, Facebook, Twitter at
Speaker 2: Jamie Gearing author.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Jamie Gearing, Madman in the Woods
Speaker 3: Life next Door to the Unibarmber. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3: You have a great evening, good night.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. Dan.
Speaker 3: Thank you, good night,