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See website for details. 23 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:14.840 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 24 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:17.959 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:25.280 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker VTK every 26 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:29.040 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 27 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:33.319 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 28 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:36.480 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 29 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:48.519 Good Evening, a haunting account of the sixteen years when 30 00:01:48.519 --> 00:01:51.439 a young Jamie Gearing and her family live closer than 31 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:56.120 anyone to Ted Kaczinski, the Unibomber. As a child of Lincoln, Montana, 32 00:01:56.599 --> 00:01:59.400 Jamie Gearing and her family shared their land, their home, 33 00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:01.799 and their dinner table with a hermit with a penchant 34 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.480 for murder. But they had no idea that the odd 35 00:02:04.519 --> 00:02:08.080 recluse living in the adjacent cabin was anything more than 36 00:02:08.120 --> 00:02:13.000 a disheveled man who brought young Jamie painted rocks as gifts. 37 00:02:13.599 --> 00:02:18.199 Ted was simply ted and erratic behavior. Surprise visits and 38 00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:20.960 chilling events while she was riding horses or helping her 39 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.960 dad at a sawmill were dismissed because he was just 40 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:28.520 the odd hermit. In fact, he was much more. Ted 41 00:02:28.599 --> 00:02:34.199 alluded the FBI for seventeen years while mailing explosives to strangers, 42 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:39.080 earning the infamous title of Unibomer. In Gering's investigative quest 43 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:42.280 twenty five years later to reclaim a piece of her 44 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:46.599 childhood and to answer the questions why how, she recalls 45 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.879 what were once innocent memories and odd circumstances that become 46 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:55.080 less puzzling in hindsight the innocence of her youth, rob 47 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:59.719 Gering needed to reconcile her lived experience with the evil 48 00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.439 that hidden plain sight in this book, through years of 49 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:07.960 research probing Ted's personal history, his writings, his secret coded 50 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:11.439 crime journals, her own correspondence with him and his supermac's 51 00:03:11.479 --> 00:03:15.400 prison cell, plus interviews with others close to Kazinski, gearing 52 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:19.719 on Earth's the complexity, mystery, and tragedy of her childhood 53 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.319 with the Madman in the Woods, and she discovers a 54 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:27.520 shocking revelation she and her family were in Kazinski's crosshairs. 55 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:32.599 A work of intricately braided research, journalism, and personal memories, 56 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:36.759 this book is a chilling response to the question do 57 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.719 you really know your neighbor? The book that we're featuring 58 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.719 this evening is Madman in the Woods Life next Door 59 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.080 to the Unibomber with my special guest journalist and author 60 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:50.479 Jamie Gering. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 61 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:51.400 much for this interview. 62 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:55.879 Thank you so much for having me, Thank. 63 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:58.719 You so much for joining us with this incredible tale. 64 00:03:58.919 --> 00:04:01.919 Madman in the world woulds. Let's get right to this 65 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.840 and as you discussed in the beginning of this book, 66 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:11.360 you explained the relationship the proximity with life next door 67 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:15.199 to the Unibarmer. But it's start and in its connection 68 00:04:15.319 --> 00:04:19.839 to nature and the comfort and adventures you had in 69 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.680 nature and in your childhood, and then this relationship with 70 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:28.319 Ted next door. So tell us a little bit about 71 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:32.759 how close the proximity you were to Ted's cabin and 72 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:37.120 just the relationship you had with your family and this 73 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:39.399 little area that you describe in the book. 74 00:04:39.680 --> 00:04:45.399 Yeah. So, in nineteen seventy one, my grandfather, who owned 75 00:04:45.959 --> 00:04:50.319 close to nine thousand acres of ranch land, sold a 76 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:55.800 small plot of land to Ted and David Kazinski, specifically 77 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:00.959 one point four acre, and Ted Kazinski, otherwise known as 78 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:06.000 the Unibommer, ended up building his cabin there. Our famili's 79 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:11.839 ranch land surrounded his property. In the late seventies early eighties, 80 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:16.360 my father and mother built their log cabin just under 81 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:21.759 a quarter mile away from Kazinski's plot of land, and 82 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:27.800 so in rural Montana, this was actually very close, honestly, 83 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:33.240 as neighbors go. Specifically in that area. It was very isolated, 84 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:37.600 of course, where Ted Kaczinski was living, and very secluded. 85 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:40.959 It was about four miles away from town. And when 86 00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:44.519 I say town, it is the town of Lincoln, Montana, 87 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:50.000 approximately one thousand residents. There is not even a stoplight 88 00:05:50.600 --> 00:05:53.040 that changes color from red de green. It is a 89 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:59.560 blinking yellow, tiny little town. And honestly, my childhood was 90 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.480 looking back, and that was a really great part of 91 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:06.920 writing this. It was so beautiful to grow up that 92 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.319 way in nature and you know, building forts and being 93 00:06:11.360 --> 00:06:15.399 in complete isolation. And that's definitely a question that I 94 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.120 asked myself through the book, is how could these beautiful 95 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:23.360 woods inspire me the way they have and nurture me 96 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:28.839 while isolating and you know, darkening our neighbor, the unibomber. 97 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.360 You talk about the first step in your you called 98 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:37.040 Journey of Exploration started at the local library in Denver, Colorado. 99 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:39.000 Tell us about your beginning. 100 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:42.839 Yeah, So, since Ted Kaczynski's arrest in nineteen ninety six. 101 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:47.600 I've always wanted to tell this story. I've always wanted 102 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:52.120 to write this book, and knowing that my father had 103 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:56.920 a part in the investigation, of course, inspired me that 104 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:01.720 much further. And when I started researching after I decided 105 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.160 I'm finally going to do this, it took years to 106 00:07:05.360 --> 00:07:09.680 read about the accounts that I wasn't present for the 107 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:15.800 FBI's investigation, for instance, and even Ted's own brother, David 108 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:20.720 Kaczinski's account. And so it really began in the library 109 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:25.240 in Denver, Colorado, with me checking out every book that 110 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:30.079 I could find about Ted and just trying to really 111 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:34.519 place myself in those narratives that again I just wasn't 112 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:35.120 present for. 113 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:38.000 Now, you go back in this book and you start 114 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:42.240 with the first impressions of this odd hermit next door 115 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:45.399 and you were four years old. So take us back 116 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:49.079 to this scenario where you lived and how you lived 117 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:52.560 in your family lived, and your first meeting with Ted 118 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:54.519 and your interaction with him. 119 00:07:54.680 --> 00:07:58.680 Yeah, so my first memory of Ted was when I 120 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:03.279 was around four years old and we were living in 121 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:07.240 our little log cabin that my parents had built. I 122 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.720 was outside playing as I did all the time, by 123 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:16.560 myself and it was just another typical day out in 124 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:21.879 rural Montana, and all of a sudden I saw Ted 125 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:26.680 coming towards the home. And at that time, he was 126 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.399 still a bit more like his appearance was a bit 127 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:35.399 more like the Berkeley professor than the Ted Kaczynski you 128 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.080 see when he was arrested. Yes, he still he did 129 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.720 definitely have his hair was disheveled, and he looked like 130 00:08:43.960 --> 00:08:48.080 he lived off the land as a hermit would, but 131 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:52.919 he didn't have that more terrifying appearance as he did 132 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:56.600 when I was much older. So when I saw him 133 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.519 coming towards me, I was excited, just as I always 134 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.440 was when Ted, when Ted would come by the home. 135 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:10.440 And I remember just very very vividly the feelings that 136 00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:13.919 I had when I was a kid, and specifically in 137 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:18.320 this encounter he had. He had brought me painted rocks 138 00:09:18.559 --> 00:09:23.759 as a gift, and I was so excited and so 139 00:09:23.919 --> 00:09:27.759 appreciative of these beautiful creations. I mean, I loved rocks, 140 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.879 and I thought it was so thoughtful that he had 141 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:36.080 painted them for me and took the time to bring 142 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:42.720 me bring me a present. So that first memory was 143 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:45.399 was very fond, and that was difficult for me to 144 00:09:45.519 --> 00:09:49.320 reconcile as an adult. How I could have such a 145 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:53.440 soft memory of an encounter with a killer. 146 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.600 Let's get back to your research and the materials that 147 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:00.360 you had to read. You say it took years because 148 00:10:00.360 --> 00:10:04.200 there was so much material. Everybody knows about the manifesto 149 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:09.000 thirty five thousand words, but you started with other materials. 150 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.960 Tell us about some of those materials and what you 151 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:14.679 began to learn about Ted Kazinski. 152 00:10:14.960 --> 00:10:18.399 Yes, so there was a memoir that was written by 153 00:10:19.039 --> 00:10:23.759 David Kaczynski, and I started with that. It was more 154 00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:27.120 of a personal account of what it was like to 155 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:32.080 grow up with Ted, and that's, you know, initially what 156 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:36.919 I was looking for, is that personal part of the narrative. 157 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:40.039 And then in addition, I had read a book, I 158 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:44.639 believe it's Robert gray Smith's book about the unibomber, and 159 00:10:44.679 --> 00:10:47.840 it was a very journalistic approach. It was his crimes 160 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:50.879 and his background, and that was, you know, very interesting. 161 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.240 And then there was another book written by co authored 162 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:57.759 by FBI agent Max Noll about the hunt for the 163 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:02.840 unibomber and the investigation. And then after I read those books, 164 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:08.440 I read Ted's own autobiography, which is essentially a PDF 165 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.840 that he has written of his own accounts and his life. 166 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:18.639 So that was that was also, you know, very very interesting. 167 00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:22.519 And then I started to read Ted's journals, and so 168 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.200 when I say journals, there are notebooks that were found 169 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.240 in the cabin after Ted's arrest, and it's truly his 170 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:36.799 innermost thoughts. It's also details of his crimes, but it's 171 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:40.440 day to day what his life looked like, what he 172 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:43.960 thought about, what he was reading, what he was hunting, 173 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:48.360 what he was eating. And it really gave me a 174 00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:54.039 very intimate look into what my neighbor was doing and 175 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.440 thinking all of those years while we lived so close by. 176 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:03.399 You mentioned David, his brother's personal account. What did you 177 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:08.559 learn about Ted's background and for example, his school background 178 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:13.120 and his motivation for moving to this isolated place. 179 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:18.639 So what I learned about Ted's background was I had 180 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:24.240 heard that the accounts of Ted being separated as a 181 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:29.000 baby from his family in the hospital, and you know, 182 00:12:29.080 --> 00:12:32.320 I was able to glean a little more intel, I 183 00:12:32.360 --> 00:12:36.559 suppose on that particular event in his life. It took 184 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:41.000 place while he was only nine months old and a 185 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:46.519 very vulnerable age as far as development and separation anxiety. 186 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:51.039 So that was that was an interesting look into I 187 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:54.840 suppose the making of this man. And then through school 188 00:12:55.399 --> 00:13:00.360 I learned that Ted was on an accelerated schedule, He 189 00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:05.679 was advanced a grade, he graduated early, He graduated at 190 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:09.120 sixteen and went off to Harvard. So and he had 191 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:14.679 always felt very isolated, I suppose from his peers, and 192 00:13:14.759 --> 00:13:20.000 not able to truly relate. And of course that is 193 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:24.960 understandable given a bit of his background. You know, obviously 194 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:28.679 there was probably some mental illness that was present there 195 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.360 as well, and so you know, through the years, really 196 00:13:33.399 --> 00:13:41.200 those experiences, although individually seem small, really shaped who he 197 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:44.720 was and who he is. And of course we all 198 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:48.600 know then he went to Harvard at sixteen, and you 199 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:53.559 know there was some questionable experiments that were done there, 200 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:58.720 and you know that of course also seemingly fueled him. 201 00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:03.279 And he does write even in nineteen seventy one when 202 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:08.200 he purchased the property from my family, he writes about 203 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:13.120 his motivation for moving to the small parcel of land. 204 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:18.679 He writes about his motivation for revenge and how he 205 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:24.720 was fueled by anger. So it was very obvious even 206 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:29.159 in those early years what Ted Kazinski's intentions were. 207 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.799 You mentioned, this was very interesting to learn about these 208 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:39.440 humiliation experiments, knowing how powerful just reading the initial title 209 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:45.879 humiliation humiliation experiments and knowing how much humiliation is a 210 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:48.759 major factor, and a lot of the most serious killers' 211 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:51.320 backgrounds tell us about these experiments. 212 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:56.639 Yeah, so there's not a lot available on these particular experiments. 213 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:00.559 But what I did find is that Ted Kasinc Was 214 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:04.480 a part of, as you said, these humiliation experiments where 215 00:15:04.759 --> 00:15:10.639 basically the student was asked to write down their personal ideals, 216 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:14.639 their beliefs, and sort of in an essay form. They 217 00:15:14.679 --> 00:15:18.919 were submitted and then they were brought back in to 218 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:25.279 debate these and defend their most personal beliefs. And really 219 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:29.799 what happened is they were paired against a successful interrogator. 220 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:34.840 And really, for Ted Kaczinski specifically, I believe so much 221 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:39.600 of his own personal worth was tied to his intelligence 222 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:45.039 and having someone break down his thoughts and beliefs was 223 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:52.399 particularly destructive to him. It was a stressful situation. You know, 224 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:58.600 they were measuring heart rate, they were looking at a 225 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.080 solid mirror, so they couldn't passed. They knew there were 226 00:16:01.080 --> 00:16:04.480 people watching them, and they were measuring the stress response 227 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:08.799 when people were placed in these types of positions. And 228 00:16:09.159 --> 00:16:13.879 again for Ted specifically, he was at a vulnerable age. 229 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.159 He was, you know, sixteen seventeen. He was a minor 230 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:23.039 when this was happening, and he already felt isolated and 231 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:28.320 different because of his background. This was just one more 232 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:33.039 thing that pushed him into isolation. 233 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.480 I suppose you mentioned, but we haven't talked about. But 234 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:38.960 I think it's important and you think it's important as well. 235 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:45.960 Is this rash in this hospitalization at nine months I believe, 236 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.559 So tell us what ensued and what do you think 237 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:52.240 it seems was the result. 238 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:56.039 Yeah, So, when Ted Kaczynski was nine months old, he 239 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:01.679 developed a rash all over his body. Case of hives 240 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.960 is what it seemed to be, and his mother did 241 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:07.720 what any mother would do and rushed him to the hospital. 242 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.759 The staff took him. They were scared that his airways 243 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.519 might close, and so they were treating him. And you know, 244 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:20.759 back in those days, they didn't allow the parents to 245 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:24.680 stay with the children or the babies at this particular hospital, 246 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:29.279 and so he was separated from his caregiver, his constant, 247 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.000 and he was put on basically like splints so that 248 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:37.279 he wouldn't scratch this rash all over his body and 249 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:43.079 In my research, I found that his mother always harkened 250 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:48.720 back to this specific event even in his adulthood. She 251 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.599 was writing letters to him, trying to connect still while 252 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:58.279 he was in that little cabin in Montana, and referencing 253 00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:03.079 this event and telling him that this changed him. And 254 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.720 she thinks that's where the hatred that he held for 255 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:11.359 his parents really stemmed from, because she had to leave 256 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:14.680 him and he was alone, and he changed after that, 257 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.000 she said. When he went into the hospital, he was 258 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:23.480 meeting milestones and this happy, friendly, bouncy baby boy. And 259 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:28.640 after the experience, she says, basically, he was a dead 260 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:33.079 lump emotionally and had more of an institutional look and 261 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:36.359 it took a long time to get even just a 262 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.640 part of that baby Ted back. 263 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:43.680 Now you talk about Ted and the effect of this 264 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.759 early hospitalization had on him, according to his mother, Now 265 00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:51.640 he had a family. There was typical family, a loving family, 266 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.039 it seemed, and so they seemed to understand Ted and 267 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.680 his peculiar arities, and they were supportive of Ted moving 268 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:04.119 to this isolated place and this cabin. So tell us 269 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:08.359 what your family their response was to this new neighbor 270 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:11.279 and some of the things that your understanding father and 271 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:15.200 mother did with this new neighbor and how they considered him. 272 00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:20.920 Yeah, in rural Montana, it is not alarming to have 273 00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:26.119 a neighbor that lives off grid or chooses to live 274 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:32.640 more of an isolated life. And so when Ted had 275 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:37.559 moved to Montana and started developing a relationship with my 276 00:19:37.720 --> 00:19:41.799 father and my mother, they took him for what he 277 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:47.680 seemingly was. And anytime they would have him over for 278 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:52.279 dinner or play cards with him, and you know, spend 279 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:57.319 spend time as neighbors do, and they would start talking, 280 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:02.160 you know, asking personal questions like you would where you're from, 281 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.599 things about your family. Ted would always deflect, and he 282 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:12.640 would respond with answers that were very much on the surface. 283 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:17.279 And my parents, from those experiences with him, just thought 284 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.920 he must have a pained past or you know, possibly 285 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.759 another theory was that he was a disenfranchised vet. I mean, 286 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:28.559 there was something that he didn't want to talk about, 287 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:34.240 and so they really respected that this neighbor of theirs 288 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:40.000 needed space and he was a little bit eccentric, but they, 289 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.680 you know, they he seemed like he was peaceful and 290 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:48.279 shy and reserved and even kind in those early years, 291 00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.519 So you know, they they again, they had him over 292 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:56.000 for dinner. They would even my parents did. My mom 293 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:59.839 and father did get divorced and my father remarried, and 294 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:03.559 those later years, even with my stepmother and my father, 295 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.319 they would bring Ted firewood or they would offer to 296 00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:10.759 have him work at the mill. And you know, in 297 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.839 the in the early years, Ted helped build certain parts 298 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:17.759 of our home and helped my father and they traded labor. 299 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:21.279 So through the years, there were so many things that 300 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:27.200 you know, my parents tried to do for this seemingly 301 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:28.599 man of the mountains. 302 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.759 One thing you didn't mention is that your father went 303 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:38.119 further and offered the tools and the shops that he 304 00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.920 operated and used and offered those to Ted to use 305 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.119 any tools and to use these structures whenever he needed it, 306 00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:46.680 didn't he. 307 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:51.519 Yeah, So my dad was very generous and what always 308 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:56.559 helped his neighbors out. But specifically it was another neighbor, 309 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:02.599 Chris Waites, who really opened up his workshop to Ted 310 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:07.119 and his welding equipment, any sort of tools that he needed, 311 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:12.519 even his land, which he owned quite a bit of 312 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.400 property in a place called McClelland Gulch, which is just 313 00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:19.079 about a mile away from where we were five miles 314 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:25.839 from town specifically, and that really allowed Ted the resources 315 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:32.119 that he needed for bomb building and even for additional isolation, 316 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:38.279 because he was building bombs and testing bombs in our 317 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:44.400 backyard but also in Chris's backyard. And he even had 318 00:22:44.480 --> 00:22:49.839 a cabin that he had built on Chris's land in 319 00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:53.319 McLellan Gulch in case he needed to run and hide. 320 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:59.200 And so these very trusting people in this really tight 321 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:05.359 knit community in Montana were really fooled by this man. 322 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:10.319 You say that you interviewed Chris Waits in twenty eighteen, 323 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:14.720 and he has a book of Unibomber, The Secret Life 324 00:23:14.759 --> 00:23:17.160 of Ted Kazinski or what did he say to you 325 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:18.240 in that interview? 326 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:23.240 So Chris actually was able to really shed some light 327 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:29.640 on the early years. And you know, in nineteen you know, 328 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:35.039 the nineteen seventies, especially the later seventies, Chris and Ted 329 00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:39.759 were friends. And you know, as much as I suppose 330 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:45.240 Kazinski would befriend someone, they would take rides into town together. 331 00:23:45.440 --> 00:23:48.319 Chris would pick him up and they would talk. They 332 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:51.400 would talk about the books they were reading or the 333 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:55.480 hikes that Ted had recently gone on, and they had 334 00:23:55.559 --> 00:24:00.119 formed a relationship of friendship together, and of course for 335 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:04.960 obvious reasons, as the years went on, that friendship definitely 336 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:11.039 did dissolve. But that was a really interesting perspective for 337 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:16.160 me to hear, is that Ted Kaczynski that was again 338 00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:20.160 a little bit closer to the Berkeley professor than the 339 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:23.079 unibomber that you conjure up when you when you think 340 00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.920 of Ted. And so it was. It was just a 341 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:31.880 look into a different perspective. I suppose a friend the 342 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:35.839 early the early Ted while he was still in his 343 00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:41.160 early years of domestic terror, but he resembled the man 344 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:46.200 that that many actually had known still. So in addition 345 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:50.480 to that he did he did share with me the 346 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:55.680 years that followed, which were much more terrifying. He shared 347 00:24:56.039 --> 00:25:01.000 his dogs being stabbed and poisoned and killed through the years, 348 00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:06.559 his wife meeting Ted in the woods without actually knowing 349 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:08.920 that it was Ted, but later realizing it had to 350 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.160 be him because of what she felt. You know. There 351 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:13.319 were even times that he shared with me that Ted 352 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:17.640 would be outside of their home watching them late at night. 353 00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:23.319 And so there were, as the years ticked on, some 354 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:28.720 really horrifying events that Chris was able to share with me. 355 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:33.119 One part of your book that is even more telling 356 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.279 and revealing is in nineteen seventy eight, Ted returns to 357 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.200 Chicago to work with his brother at a factory foam 358 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:47.200 cutting engineers. What happens here? He leaves this cabin nineteen 359 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:51.400 seventy eight, he goes to Chicago. What happens in terms 360 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:56.799 of romance or potential romance and work at this factory? 361 00:25:56.799 --> 00:25:59.000 How does it all work out? 362 00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:03.640 Ted did reach out to Illinois in seventy eight, and 363 00:26:04.519 --> 00:26:08.319 you know, the motivation behind that is still unclear. Whether 364 00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:12.640 he needed money for funding or if he needed to 365 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:16.000 be around his family were not quite clear on. But 366 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:20.519 he did return and he started working with his brother 367 00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:25.039 and at the factory, and he found a love interest 368 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.720 by the name of Ellen Turmichael. And it had been 369 00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:33.880 quite some time since Ted had spent time with a woman. 370 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:37.359 They had gone on a few dates together. They went 371 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:42.000 apple picking, and he took her out to a French 372 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:46.319 restaurant for dinner, and then she broke it off and 373 00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:53.440 it really destroyed Ted. And again, it wasn't a serious relationship, 374 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:58.839 it was only a few dates, but it really affected him, 375 00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:04.480 and even his brother remembers Ted just completely shutting down 376 00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:10.440 after Ellen called it quit, and Ted was so filled 377 00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:16.279 with anger that he posted limericks about Ellen, who also 378 00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:19.839 worked at the factory, all around the factory, about a 379 00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:24.920 limerick about her body, and it was I mean. David 380 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:29.319 Kaczynski was appalled and of course made Ted take down 381 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.720 the limericks. But then the next day another one was 382 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.079 up and David had to fire his brother, and of 383 00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:41.640 course that just made the fire inside of Ted grow 384 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:47.240 and he actually it was found that Ted had planned 385 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:53.480 to disfigure Ellen. He had set up a meeting to 386 00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.720 talk to her, and he had a knife hidden in 387 00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:03.759 a paper bag with planned to attack her, and they did. 388 00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:07.319 They were able to talk and his as he explains, 389 00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:11.319 I think he specifically says something like his anger fizzled 390 00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:16.880 out and he didn't feel the need anymore to hurt her. Thankfully. 391 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.480 He talked to his mother about this. It was such 392 00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:22.519 a traumatic event to him. And the woman had said 393 00:28:22.559 --> 00:28:25.680 when he confronted her and asked what the problem was, 394 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.319 is that she said he lacked social confidence and that 395 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:31.559 she was just interested. He said, well, why do you 396 00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:33.759 go out with me but just interested in you? Because 397 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:36.319 I've never been with a person like you. So he 398 00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:39.880 talked to his mother about this event and this lack 399 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:44.279 of social confidence and social skills and never felt the 400 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.519 love of a woman. He talked to his mother. 401 00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:50.799