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True Murder with your host, 33 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:41.519 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 34 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:46.439 Two grisly murders, a brutal double parricide, a suicide, and 35 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:51.079 the fourth death under suspicious circumstances. Drifting into Darkness is 36 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:55.760 a tangled tale of family dysfunction, fatal attraction, and greed, 37 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:59.480 a saga that wends its way from the elegant southern 38 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:04.040 mansions of Montgomery, Alabama, to the New Age salons of Boulder, Colorado, 39 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:08.879 to rural windswept Wyoming. On Thanksgiving weekend in two thousand 40 00:02:08.919 --> 00:02:14.280 and four, philanthroists Charlotte and Brent Springford Senior, a wealthy, 41 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.960 socially prominent Montgomery couple, were brutally beaten to death with 42 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.960 an axe handle echoing the infamous case of Lizzie Borden. 43 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:26.159 Suspicion quickly fell on the Springford's gifted but troubled son, 44 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.400 Brent Junior, who would be tried and sentenced to life 45 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.639 without parole. But a mystery remained. Who was the mysterious, 46 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:37.199 elusive woman who claimed to be a Native American shaman 47 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:42.039 that investigators believe manipulated Brent into this murder. Journalists solving 48 00:02:42.319 --> 00:02:45.360 murders as a time tested trope in movies, mysteries, and 49 00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:49.400 on television, but cops and cop reporters know that rarely 50 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:52.840 happens in real life, except when it does. Veteran crime 51 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:56.560 reporter mark I Pinsky, who covered the sensational cases of 52 00:02:56.599 --> 00:03:00.639 serial killer Ted Bundy and Green Beret doctor Jeffrey MacDonald, 53 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:04.479 broke the cardinal rule of journalism by involving himself in 54 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:09.400 the story. Pinsky's extensive research prompted investigators to invite him 55 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.800 to join their dogged pursuit of justice. His access to 56 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.960 unique and heartbreaking behind the scenes material enables him to 57 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.199 take readers with him into the troubled, tortured minds of 58 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:23.199 the case's main players. The book that we're featuring this 59 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.800 evening is drifting into darkness murders, madness, suicide, and a 60 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:32.680 death under suspicious circumstances with my special guest, journalist and 61 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.319 author mark I Pinsky. Welcome to the program, and thank 62 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:40.080 you very much for this interview. Mark I Pinsky, Dan, 63 00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:41.879 thank you very much for inviting me. I'm glad to 64 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:45.400 be here. Thank you so much. This is an incredible tale, 65 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:49.439 and we talked about your incredible access makes this true 66 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:54.400 crime essential reading. Let's get right to the Springfords in 67 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:58.319 this garden district as you write of Montgomery, Alabama, and 68 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:02.319 you take us immediately to Thanksgiving two thousand and four. 69 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:07.360 November twenty sixth and a subcontractor, Michael Shelton and his 70 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:11.919 workers pull up to this address, this affluent home. What 71 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:16.040 to Sheldon and his crew discover they have had access 72 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:19.120 to this home and they've been working and they know 73 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:19.720 the family. 74 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:20.000 Well. 75 00:04:20.399 --> 00:04:22.519 Tell us what happens what they find. 76 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:24.720 Well, when they pull up, they were getting ready to 77 00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:27.879 complete some of the renovations that were happening in the house. 78 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:31.839 And first they were somewhat concerned because there were some 79 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:35.759 unlocked doors and they the key that they had for 80 00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:38.600 the actual house was not working. It appeared that a 81 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:41.399 bolt had been thrown from inside, so they went through 82 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.680 the garage and found an entrance in there, and they 83 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:47.000 walked into the kitchen area where they were doing some 84 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:50.360 tiling work, and they shouted to let people know that 85 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:52.639 they were there, let Brent and Charlotte know that they 86 00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:55.560 were there. They got no answer. They were able to 87 00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:00.279 reach through a window pane which was removable, un throw 88 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.399 the bolt, and walk into the kitchen again. They shouted 89 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:05.879 that they were here, just that people wouldn't be surprised. 90 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:08.560 They weren't sure whether the Springsburghs would be at home 91 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:11.360 or not, but as they walked through the first floor 92 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:14.079 of the house, they noticed things were in disarray. They 93 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:16.079 first noticed that when they went through the garage that 94 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:19.360 Brent Senior's office appeared to be somewhat in disarray, and 95 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:21.319 he was known as a very neat person, so they 96 00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:24.120 were somewhat concerned, but it was a holiday weekends, so 97 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:26.439 they didn't get too concerned. They went into the kitchen, 98 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.000 saw no one and walked through the first floor and 99 00:05:29.079 --> 00:05:33.920 saw papers strewn throughout the place. There was some foreboding 100 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:37.360 because there were still no answer when they called upstairs 101 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:39.839 to let them know they were there, and so with 102 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:43.759 that sense of foreboding, the lead contractor walked up the 103 00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:48.240 backstairs and when he reached the landing, he stopped suddenly 104 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:52.000 because the carpet at the top of the stairs was 105 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:55.360 saturated with blood, and not just a little blood, a 106 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:59.199 lot of blood, and he knew something very wrong had happened. 107 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:02.240 He went back down the stairs and told his workers 108 00:06:02.279 --> 00:06:05.120 not to go upstairs. He then called Brent Senior on 109 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:07.639 the cell phone he had his number because the contractor 110 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.519 also worked for Brent Senior for a time at their 111 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.839 soft drink bottling company. There was no answer, the more 112 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.680 concern When there was no answer, the contractor then called 113 00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:21.759 the Montgomery Police Department and said they thought something very 114 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:24.759 wrong had happened. At first they thought maybe it was 115 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.560 a burglary, an armed robbery, a home invasion robbery that'd 116 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:32.160 gone wrong, but there were nothing else that they could see, 117 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:36.079 and so the police said, leave the premises, wait out front. 118 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:39.120 We'll get there as soon as we can. And it 119 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:41.199 was a holiday weekend, so there were some people who 120 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:44.920 were actually officers detectives who were at home, and so 121 00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:47.240 they were called in and it took about thirty or 122 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:51.399 forty minutes for the police to arrive, both uniforms and detectives. 123 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:54.399 They went in. They went through through the kitchen door, 124 00:06:54.759 --> 00:06:58.800 they went upstairs, they saw the huge area of blood. 125 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.800 They knew something terrible was wrong, and so they began 126 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.040 They called back to the precinct and said, we need 127 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:07.800 some homicide detectives. We think that there's a murder of 128 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:11.839 some sort. Their first thought was it was a murder suicide. 129 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.519 It might have been the simplest explanation for the physical 130 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.879 evidence that they first saw. In the next hour or so, 131 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.399 they then ventured along the hallway in the second floor, 132 00:07:21.680 --> 00:07:24.600 and the first thing they saw was the body of 133 00:07:24.720 --> 00:07:27.920 Brent Springford Senior. He had been beaten to death. They 134 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:30.000 didn't know with what at the time. It later turned 135 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:33.399 out to be a pickaxe handle, but also his throat 136 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:36.800 was cut almost to the point of decapitation, and he 137 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:40.879 was surrounded by blood in this area. They've ventured further 138 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.120 down the hall to the master bedroom, where they found 139 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.160 the body of Charlotte Sprinford would also have been beaten 140 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:50.360 to death, who also was stabbed multiple times, including in 141 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.959 the throat, and in this case, however, they were defensive 142 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.560 wounds on her arms that they could recognize right away. 143 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:00.439 Unlike Brent, there were no defensive wounds on him. He 144 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:04.519 apparently was set upon in a furious attack. But this 145 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:08.319 time Charlotte Springford either saw something happening or knew something 146 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:10.600 was happening, and she tried to defend herself. There was 147 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:12.879 physical evidence that after she was beaten to the ground 148 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:15.680 and stabbed, she still tried to drag herself in the 149 00:08:15.680 --> 00:08:18.040 direction of the telephone, but she didn't make it. 150 00:08:18.439 --> 00:08:23.560 Investigators find out that there's a daughter, Robin, and a son, 151 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:29.879 Brent Junior, and also that the Jaguarar is missing. So 152 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:33.240 how do investigators proceed with this investigation. 153 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:38.639 Well, they first tried to reach Robin and also Charlotte's 154 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.279 half sister, Lois Trust who lived in Birmingham where they 155 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:44.720 had spent the Thanksgiving dinner. And at the same time 156 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:49.879 they were making these calls, neighbors seeing the police vehicles 157 00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:52.679 and then the yellow tape that went up, began congregating 158 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:56.879 on the lawn and on the front in the street 159 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:00.639 in front of them, and so other detectives began to 160 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.440 chat with the neighbors to see if they had any leads, 161 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:06.639 and among them were some close friends of the Springfords 162 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:11.480 who said, take a close look at their son, Brent Junior. 163 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.120 He's been estranged from the family living out in Colorado. 164 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:18.879 So that went into the factors of the initial discussions, 165 00:09:19.120 --> 00:09:23.519 and they, as the investigators called family members. The family 166 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:28.000 members also pointed toward Brent Junior. But the problem for 167 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:31.080 the police is that as far as they knew, Brent 168 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.240 was two thousand miles away in the area of Boulder, Colorado, 169 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:38.840 so they began making phone calls. They were also concerned. 170 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:42.320 The family was concerned that Brent Junior not only had 171 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:46.200 killed those his parents, but he might have in mind 172 00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:49.720 to kill his sister and other family members. So the 173 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:53.480 family members on their own went into hiding in case 174 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:57.120 that Brent Junior was still around and might be after them. 175 00:09:57.320 --> 00:10:02.000 So the police immediately to protect live They sent squad 176 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:06.519 cars to protect Lois Trust's house and other places in 177 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:09.639 thought that maybe he would come there, that it was 178 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:12.320 Brent Junior and that he would come there. The family 179 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:14.480 owned the Lake House. They went out to the Lake House, 180 00:10:15.159 --> 00:10:17.480 but at the same time they were making calls out 181 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:21.039 to Colorado, where they knew that Brent had a home, 182 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:24.039 and they were asking local sheriff's deputies to go out 183 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:27.279 and see if he was there, and so all this 184 00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:29.679 was happening, there was a lot of I won't say confusion, 185 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:33.639 but these were the victims were really wealthy, prominent people, 186 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:37.159 so a lot was at stake for the police department 187 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:39.840 to This is a horrible thing, you know, people in 188 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:42.960 a neighborhood like the Garden District being murdered in their 189 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:46.399 homes at a very high screw up. 190 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:51.840 So police speak to Robin and what did they find 191 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:56.559 out from Robin concerning the brother Brent Jr. And just 192 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:00.559 the dynamics of the family, especially at Thanksgiving. 193 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:03.639 Well, they found out that Robin and her husband Greg, 194 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:08.960 Charlotte and Brent Senior had had a Thanksgiving dinner at 195 00:11:08.960 --> 00:11:13.200 the home of Charlotte's half sister, Lois Trusts in Birmingham, 196 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:17.679 and the family was happy to gather together because Lois 197 00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:21.039 Trust's daughter had just gotten married, so there were two 198 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.039 newly read couples and was very happy. But there was 199 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:27.279 in a sense an empty chair at the Thanksgiving table, 200 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:30.120 and that chair would have been for Brent Junior, but 201 00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:34.919 he was estranged from the family. So the estrangement really 202 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.080 when speaking to the people who are around the table. 203 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.279 That estrangement at least sort of hung over the whole event. 204 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.200 So Robin again was convinced that only one person could 205 00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:48.159 have done this. It wasn't a random act, it wasn't 206 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.200 a home invasion, it was it was her. It was 207 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:53.799 her brother who did it. She'd know how it happened 208 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:56.240 or where it happened, but she was convinced that it 209 00:11:56.320 --> 00:11:59.639 was her brother who was responsible, and also Robin was 210 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:02.799 also concerned, to concern she gave to the police that 211 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.320 initially Robin and Greg were supposed to come back to 212 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.759 the Springford's home in Montgomery with her parents to go 213 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:12.759 off together, but at the last minute, Robin and her 214 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:15.600 husband decided not to go with him, and Robin was 215 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.600 very much concerned that if she had, if she and 216 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:21.879 her husband had gone back with her parents, that she 217 00:12:21.919 --> 00:12:23.600 and her husband would have been murdered as well. 218 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:27.519 So what do investigators do to be able to speak 219 00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:30.000 to Caroline Scout. 220 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:34.559 Well, they called Brent Junior's partner, caregiver and as it 221 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.440 turns out wife in Colorado who's living in the house 222 00:12:38.519 --> 00:12:41.559 that the Springfords had given them, and wanted to know 223 00:12:42.039 --> 00:12:47.440 where Brent Junior was and at first, this woman's name 224 00:12:47.480 --> 00:12:51.159 is Caroline Scout, she said, oh, he's around here, somewhere, 225 00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.600 and they asked how long she had seen him. 226 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:55.799 Was she sure? 227 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.480 She said, oh, yes, he's been here all week. He 228 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:01.720 called in sick at work on Wednesday night, the Wednesday 229 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:05.120 before the Thursday of Thanksgiving, and he's been around here 230 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:07.960 all week. So the police, you know, are used to 231 00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:10.240 people telling the truth or not telling the truth, and 232 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:15.000 they asked the local sheriff's department in Colorado to go 233 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:18.879 out and check out the place, the house, to see 234 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:21.799 if he was actually there. Two deputies went out there, 235 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:26.240 they looked around, they saw a car that was registered 236 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.840 to Brent, but they couldn't find Brent. And they questioned 237 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:34.799 Caroline Scouts two three adult children, two adults in one 238 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:38.600 adolescent who were living in the house, and they all 239 00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:42.799 reaffirmed that, in fact, Brent had been there all week. 240 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.519 So the police were first puzzled. And then another young 241 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.039 man who was living at the house a border actually 242 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.159 took one of the police aside and said, you should 243 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:56.240 call me at my work. I'll be able to speak 244 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:58.919 more freely. And when they did that, he said, I 245 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:03.879 haven't seen Brent for a week, and so police became concerned. 246 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.240 They still weren't ready to make a move. The Montgomery 247 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:09.000 police were not ready to get on a plane quite 248 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:14.559 yet until the jaguar was discovered in outside of Tulsa, Oklahoma, 249 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:18.240 which kind of began to connect the docks for the 250 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.240 investigators in Montgomery. There was the missing jaguar that had 251 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:26.279 been in the garage in Montgomery, and after the murder, 252 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.600 it shows up in Tulsa, Oklahoma, which is pretty much 253 00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.399 two thirds the way back to Colorado. They thought they 254 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:33.639 were kind of closing in. 255 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:34.279 On their suspect. 256 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:39.879 Now, what do investigators find about the dynamics of Brent Junior, 257 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:46.879 his family life, Brent Senior, this wealthy businessman, and mother Charlotte, 258 00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:50.519 What was their personalities and how they contributed to this dynamic. 259 00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:55.759 Well, the Springfords, Brent Senior and Charlotte were really well 260 00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:00.279 beloved in Montgomery. They were philanthropists. They had made lot 261 00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:03.639 of money, but they weren't, you know, gravy, selfish people. 262 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.240 They tried to share their wealth in many ways, even 263 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.720 when they traveled. They were very progressive. Now this is 264 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:14.919 two thousand and four, but earlier Montgomery can be a 265 00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:17.639 very conservative place and was a very conservative place between 266 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:22.120 regarding racial equality, but both Brent Senior and Charlotte were 267 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:24.960 known as being very progressive people on race, very open 268 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:28.399 to various people in town. When the Southern Poverty Law 269 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:32.919 Center located in Montgomery, a lot of the establishment people 270 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.720 kind of shunned them, but Brent and Charlotte did not. 271 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:38.000 They made them welcome, and so they were beloved for 272 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:41.559 their gifts. They were beloved for their civic involvement. And 273 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.840 the great tragedy, as their close friends knew, was a 274 00:15:45.879 --> 00:15:50.120 long term estrangement from their oldest son, Brent Junior, and 275 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.440 they had done everything their friends knew to support him 276 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:58.639 as he was growing up. He was not a spoiled kid. 277 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.320 He was an outruistic kid. He took in strays in 278 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.759 terms of newcomers to his school, He invited people to 279 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:08.279 they had parties at the home. But when he went 280 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.600 away to school, he went to Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. 281 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.200 Very good school, but in those first couple of years 282 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:21.559 he became gradually alienated from his parents. And his parents 283 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.879 didn't cut him off. They didn't. He was what's known 284 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:27.919 in this country, and it was tough love. They tried 285 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:32.720 to understand what was happening to him. They were very sympathetic. 286 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:38.320 They offered counseling. He was always welcome back home, even 287 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.600 when he became more and more alienated to them. When 288 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.679 he decided to drop out of Vanderbilt after his second year, 289 00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:46.799 where he was a very good student, he went on 290 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.519 projects in Latin America to help people. His professors loved him, 291 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:55.159 but he became interested in New Age beliefs, but also 292 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:59.840 a serious study of Eastern religions, Buddhism and Hinduism, and 293 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.440 his parents weren't sure what the source of this alienation was. Sociologically, 294 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.599 at least in North America, when young men reached their 295 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:15.799 early twenties, they're sometimes vulnerable to incipient mental illness, particularly bipolar, 296 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:19.440 and Brent Junior's parents weren't sure if that's what it was, 297 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:22.440 because there was a family history of bipolar disorder in 298 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:25.680 Charlotte's family, and they were petrified that that's what was 299 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.200 happening to them. But they did everything they could to 300 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.079 support him. He wanted to drop out of Vanderbilt for 301 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:33.599 the second year. They didn't like it, but they accepted it. 302 00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:37.599 He wanted to study Buddhism and Hinduism in retreats around 303 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:40.440 the country and in Mexico, and they supported him in 304 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.559 that so they basically did everything they could. But as 305 00:17:43.599 --> 00:17:46.839 time passed, he began, as the title of the book says, 306 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:50.880 he began to drift into darkness, and the alienation was 307 00:17:50.960 --> 00:17:53.920 greater and greater when he would come back for family visits, 308 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:58.319 sometimes sometimes for big family occasions. The spring Shirt had 309 00:17:58.359 --> 00:18:01.319 a black tie dinner at Christmas every year for more 310 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:03.720 than one hundred people at their home, and he showed 311 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:06.039 up one year in a monk's row with his head shaves, 312 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.400 and his parents were, of course mortified, but they were 313 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:13.400 saying their explanation was Brent's just trying to find himself. 314 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:19.400 When did Brent meet Caroline Scout and under what circumstances? 315 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:22.200 Well, Brent spent about two years with a serious study 316 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.279 of Buddhism and Hinduism, going from a retreat to retreat 317 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:30.079 in Mexico and across the US. He ended up in Boulder, Colorado, 318 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:34.640 where he decided he would study Buddhism formally at Naropa 319 00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:38.200 University in Boulder. His parents were not so thrilled with 320 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.640 the idea, but they thought, well, he'll be back in school. 321 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:43.359 That'll be good for us, and so they supported that. 322 00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:47.599 But you know, all for all of Brent's adult life 323 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.920 he was searching for enlightenment through New Age seeking, through 324 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:55.079 Buddhism and Hinduism, but in the end it just got 325 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.839 darker and darker. He really wanted to find a guru, 326 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.880 a spiritual god, and he went to visit the home 327 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.839 of his roommate. His roommate at Nouopa's parents lived in Boulder. 328 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:10.799 They had a kind of an intellectual salon, a New 329 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:13.599 Age salon, at their home, and he went there one 330 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:18.039 day and he crossed paths with a woman named Caroline 331 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.480 Scouts who claimed to be a Native American shaman, and 332 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:25.720 the instant he saw her, he was struck. And he 333 00:19:25.799 --> 00:19:28.400 got down on his knees and touched his head to 334 00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:33.000 the floor three times and said, I've found my spiritual guide. 335 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.240 And that was a faithful meeting for Brent. He thought 336 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.759 this search that he'd been on for several years was 337 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:43.160 finally satisfied. He found someone who he could follow and 338 00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:46.759 learn about and study. He was still at Naropa, so 339 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.160 as he was getting to know her, taking some breathing. 340 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:50.640 Classes with her. 341 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:53.319 That she gave in Boulder. He wrote a paper about 342 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:56.359 her for Naropa and her history, based of course, only 343 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.400 on what she told him, and he became closer and 344 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:02.640 closer to her. Her and I think at that time 345 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:05.839 she sensed in him what we call a mark, a 346 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:09.519 vulnerable person from whom she could extract money. 347 00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:14.079 Now they have a relationship, and he wants to tell 348 00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:18.400 us parents about this person. Their parents are interested in 349 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:21.960 meeting this person that they believe can be a caretaker. 350 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.440 Maybe you can explain to us that meeting and what 351 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:28.920 they get from the meeting this woman, and what they 352 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.599 think her interest is regarding their son. 353 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.359 At first, they were relieved that he had found someone 354 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:39.799 who could look after him, someone whose advice he was 355 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.759 likely to take, because, as they were concerned with his 356 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:47.200 mental health as well, they thought if he was with 357 00:20:47.319 --> 00:20:50.759 a person who would be a caretaker who he would 358 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:55.759 listen to, they could have sense use her to steer 359 00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.680 him towards psychiatric care. They weren't sure, and also Charlotte 360 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:05.319 handedly admitted if he had a caretaker in Bolder, he 361 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:08.960 was less likely to come home to Montgomery and embarrass 362 00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.279 them again with his state of mind. So they felt 363 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.839 this was a good idea. But they again, they were 364 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:18.519 very caring parents, very careful parents, and so they flew 365 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:21.640 out to Boulder to meet this woman, and they were 366 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.079 initially impressed with her. They felt she was a very 367 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.519 spiritual person. Many people who met her felt she was 368 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:31.480 a very spiritual person. And they left fairly confident that 369 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:34.480 this was going to be a good arrangement. And so 370 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:39.960 to cement that, they began sending Caroline Scout money, ostensibly 371 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.279 to take care of Brent, but it was really more 372 00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:46.920 money than she would have needed, and so that relationship 373 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:50.880 was sort of christened and approved of by Brent's parents. 374 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:53.119 They were hopeful, they weren't sure, but they were hopeful 375 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.519 that this might bring him back to them in some 376 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.799 way through her, And in fact, she did begin to 377 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:05.000 get him to see a series of psychiatrists. He was 378 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:09.920 uncertain of it himself, but because she said he should 379 00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.160 do it, he began to do it. 380 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:16.079 Now, you talk about this and what is the diagnosis 381 00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:19.119 from these various psychiatrists. 382 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:24.240 Very early on, the psychiatrist's diagnoses were sort of reinforced 383 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.599 from one to another for the most part, which is 384 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:31.640 early stages of bipolar disorder. This was troubling to Brent 385 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:35.319 Junior's mother, because she knew that her family, for three 386 00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:39.319 generations at least, had been plagued with bipolar disorder. They 387 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:47.559 were in her family suicides, institutionalizing alcoholism, various things which 388 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:51.839 she had decided not to tell her son about for 389 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:54.759 fear that he would see that as something that couldn't 390 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:57.519 be avoided for him, and so she didn't want it 391 00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:01.160 to be an inevitable problem that he should worry about, 392 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:03.240 among the other things that he had in his life 393 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.880 to worry about. So she recognized that that was probably 394 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.680 the case, and she did what psychiatrists don't really like 395 00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:14.720 to do. She began corresponding with his psychiatrists. Most of them, 396 00:23:14.839 --> 00:23:17.440 because of the ethics, would not respond to her because 397 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.880 he was not a minor, so she had no standing 398 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.119 to his psychiatric care. But she was pretty clear that 399 00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:29.880 the psychiatrists were onto something, and they prescribed medication, and, 400 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.000 as often happens with bipolar disorder, the medication, once they 401 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.839