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Speaker 1: Arrow dot net a r r oe dot net. Not

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just a podcast, It is a podcast network nineteen different

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unique content driven lifestyle podcasts that connect with your life.

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For instance, if you love cooking, chefs, cookbooks, and everything

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that goes with food, then you need the Foodie Paradise.

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It's on erow dot net a r r oe dot net.

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Enjoy the exploration. Good morning, Matty, how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm great erow. How are you?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic and very excited to share a conversation with you,

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because what I love about Men of Troy is that

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you answer a lot of questions because come on, you

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got to deal with it too. When it comes to

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these people that are doing fantasy sports, they may know

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the stats for today, but they do not know how

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we got here. And you give us that opportunity to

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really step into mister Carroll's life and say, oh god, dang,

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I didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep, for sure. It was so cool to look

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you know, it's cool to get perspective. You know, I

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feel like twenty years is a good way to look back.

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People have a lot work, they've had a lot more

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time to marinate in it and think about it.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I was just doing some research for

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iHeartRadio based on why is it that time is flying by?

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And it's because we associate ourselves with days of the week. Well,

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when it comes to college ball or even professional ball,

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what are we doing? We're always saying Saturday, Sunday, Saturday, Sunday,

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Saturday Sunday. You know, if you you know, can we

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just attach ourselves to the sports hero and then and

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then get on with our lives?

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Speaker 2: I know, I love it, you know. I think it's

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one of the I point this out in the book,

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which is really interesting. It's one of the reasons that

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college and pro seems so different is other than the

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you know, level of play and the age of the

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player stuff like that, is because of the days in

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which they're played. So Saturday, this is this more kind

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of hopeful day, right, and it's like all of these

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alums coming back to the place where they spent the

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best four years of their lives and all these students

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in the stands and games just in the bands. You know,

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games just feel those college games just feel so different

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from the more sort of professional NFL which happens on

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Sunday when people are kind of god dread and got

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to go back to work on Monday. It's a really

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interesting thing.

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Speaker 1: To me, see, And the thing is is that it

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opens up our minds into a clearer sport as well,

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because the business side of college ball or professional ball,

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we tend to forget it is a business before it's

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a sport.

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Speaker 2: Yeah percent. And obviously now I think that, you know,

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the veil has been lifted off of college football. It's

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very much, you know, a money making sport at this point.

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Speaker 1: So what was it like, though, to put yourself in

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a position where people were calling Pete a failure, they

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were calling him a fraud and a fake because right away,

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I mean, being down here in Carolina, well I'm going

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through the same junk with Belichick. Everybody's going get rid

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of him. Ah, this guy's it's stupid to have him

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in there. And I'm going, oh, I think that Monty

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just wrote about this, but it was a different player.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, so when when Carol joined the Trojans

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in two thousand and one, he was a failure at

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that point by by all metrics. I mean, he'd been

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fired by after one season at the Jets, and then

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he went to the Patriots for three was fired there.

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Those coach, those owners of those franchises just didn't get him.

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He was a player's coach. He tried to make everything fun.

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He wore flip flops, he had a basketball hoop installed

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in the facility. They just didn't get him. He was

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a little too loosey, goosey. So he goes out to USC.

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He's not the first choice. Depending on how he talked to,

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he's either the third or the fourth choice. So he

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got this downtrodden coach and this downtrodden program and they

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syncd up and you know, his kind of loosey, goosey

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players coach kind of style really worked with college kids.

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You know, he's the diametric opposite of Bill Belichick, really,

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I mean he's Belichick is very much kind of a

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militaristic kind of football coach. Carol is very much a

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player's coach. One of the things that really came through

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and reporting this book, talking to his ex players and

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his ex coaches at USC, was that he made it fun.

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This whole philosophy, His whole philosophy was to get peak performance,

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to get pete creativity, you got to make it fun.

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And so you know, a lot of these guys would say,

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hey this, you know, Pete Carroll made it so fun.

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It felt like I was twelve years old again playing

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in my backyard. Yes, so different from La Chick.

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Speaker 1: See that's how I watched the TV when when he

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was on the screen, I felt comforted. In other words,

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I wanted to see him as well. I wanted to

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see his reactions. I wanted to predict what he was

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going to say into that little microphone. You know. It

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says he brought me so into that game, is what

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he did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean he was always moving. Yeah, he's

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always chewing a big wap to gum and practices. He

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would he would run down on the kickoff team. There's

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one story in the book where he there's a fourth

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and goal play at practice and he decides he's going

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to be the running back and he tries to jump

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over the pile kind of like crucial Walker, but no

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one catches him and just slams into the turf. I mean,

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he was just a maniac, and he's still even in

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his you know, in his seventies, he still was this active, crazy,

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you know guy who actually like he was twenty five.

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Speaker 1: Well, don't you think it's because he proved to the

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rest of us on this side of the flat screen

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that no matter how bad the storm is, can we

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just sit down and talk of about this because I

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always felt like that he was He may not have

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had the solution, but let's talk about it. Let's at

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least bring people together to talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, he very collaborative. You know. One thing

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that's really interesting about his coaching career is that for

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most coaches, like Bill Belichick, you know, there's a good

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cop bad cop dynamic and the head the head coaches

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the bad cop, so he'll go and he'll yell at

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the player, and then then assistant will co over and

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be like, go to the player and say, this is

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what the coach meant. You know, don't take it too personally.

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That dynamic was was inverted. At USC. Carrol was the

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good cop, but he had guys like Lane Kiffin and

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ed Orgeron who were kind of the bad cops. So

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it was this crazy No other big program or no

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other big NFL team that I've seen has had this

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kind of weird inverted dynamic like that, and you know,

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it didn't work in the NFL. His first stint After USC,

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of course he goes the Seahawks, improves that it could

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work there as well. Yep.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to tell you, I became seriously in

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control of my passion for football when he went to

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the Seahawks, only because you know, growing up in Montana,

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you're either a Seahawks fan or you were a Broncos fan.

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And when he went to Seattle, it's like, oh, sorry, Broncos,

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that's it, man, I'm gone, I'm out of here. Because

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Carroll was up there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it was an incredible run he had there.

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We you know, we forget about it. He got fired,

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right and last year d Raider's not very good, I

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do think, and you know, in time we will appreciate

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what he did there. But you know, he's one of

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only three coaches to win a college and national title

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and a Super Bowl. He was within six inches really

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a Lendell White fourth down conversion of winning three college

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titles in a row. He was within you know, a

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bad play call to throw it, to accidentally throw it

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to Malcolm Butler and not give it to Marshawn Lynch

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of winning two Super Bowls. So you know, he had

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the unfortunate kind of historical accident of being around at

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the same time as Bill Belichick, who's considered to be

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the greatest NFL coach of all time, and Nick saidon

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who's considered to be the greatest college football coach of

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all time. But Carol's right in there, you know, I

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think he's a top ten, top fifteen coach of all time.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think though, It's about time that they're starting

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to marry these to these two sports, because even the

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way that you bring the everybody together, the players and

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the coaches together inside this book, it's still the same sport,

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just a different level of play. But you can love

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both of them and really really you know, have a

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game in your hand and heart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, we're trending that way. I mean, I

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just read yesterday that the Alabama quarterback Ty Simpson was

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offered six point five million dollars to play for Miami

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next year. He turned that down to grow but I mean,

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you know that's probably that's about what he's making his

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rookie contract, right. I mean, so there's college football is

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definitely trending in a way of becoming kind of more professional.

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I feel like they need to get a handle on it.

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And maybe treat it more like professionals football and you know,

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have a salary cap and make these players employees. Otherwise

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it's going to get kind of out of control and

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they might start making more money than they would as

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a pro.

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Speaker 1: What is that like for you on your side of

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the storytelling, because I mean, my god, just in the

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past five or ten years, everything that's taking place, especially

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with this portal and all that kind of stuff, it's

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got to be driving you insane.

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Speaker 2: It is crazy. It's very very hard to wrap your

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arms around, I feel like, because it also changes every year,

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you know, I mean just watching these guys. I mean

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you're a fan of a team, and then thirty guys

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Ohio State. What had twenty twenty five guys run to

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the portal after they lost in the playoffs. One thing

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that I loved doing about this USC book and this

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pe carrol Era book is that it's just a little

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easier to wrap your arms around. Now. Was it a

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fair system? Absolutely not. Was there cheating going on? Absolutely?

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Was there you know, players being paid, Yes, but it

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was an easier you know, kids stayed for two, three,

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four years. There was no you know, if you left,

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you had to sit out a year, so no one

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left and so it's kind of an easier era to

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kind of wrap your arms around a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Monty Burke coming

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up next. The name of his sports book is Men Troy.

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We are back with journalists, Monty Burke. So one of

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the things that I have to ask you about, only

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because now that you're bringing up Pete Carroll and the

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other coaches that you'll talk about are the other leaders,

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is the fact that we've evolved into this generation now

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where it seems like they're coming to the to the

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college leagues to take a break because they know the

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NFL is can open because I mean, what was it

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eight coaches that lost their job of this season in

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the NFL. Well, we're going to lose now on the

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college side, and it's like do we start all over

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here now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean it's actually now nine openings because tom

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at Pittsburgh. It'll be interesting to see if they if

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they do raid, I mean, will Kurt Signetti or will

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Kirby Smart or will Ryan Day? Will they make the jump?

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This would be a good year to do it. There's

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you know, not only nine openings. There are some good openings.

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I mean, if the Ravens and the Steelers seems like

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pretty good jobs to me. So it'll be very interesting

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to see if they raid the college, you know, kind

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of the college head coaches, or if they look to

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you know, assistance offensive coordinators, defensive coordinators that are already

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in the NFL.

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Speaker 1: You have a quote in here that I've not heard

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of before. But I'll tell you what. I want to

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live by it. I want to study it. I want

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to figure things out by it. In the way that

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you say that the mantra let whoever earns the palm

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bear it. That's powerful inside my heart because, in other words,

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own it, own it, and do something with it, don't

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just let it sit there.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep. That's actually the motto of the University of

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Southern California. Wow. And I've always loved that. I mean,

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there's a they have a lot of you know, kind

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of like a Trojan iconography there. They got the crazy

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guy who gallops out on the white horse, you know,

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and plants the sword in the middle of the field.

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And you know, I just love all that stuff. I

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think it's so cool. But I do that quote to

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me is great. Is unbelievable. It's a little bit like

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a man in the Arena stuff from Teddy Roosevelt.

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Speaker 1: So in a really creative way, do you not see

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your book also not just being a book of history,

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being a book about sports, but also in a very

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very fun way. This is like a true crime story

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because I mean, you're going in there and you're identifying

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the characters of what what's been going on. Is like, go,

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oh my god, he did it? Who did it? I

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don't know, let's go find out who did it.

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Speaker 2: Yep. It's so fun to put these books together because

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it's just so fun to call, you know. I think

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I interviewed a little more than one hundred and fifty

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people from this book, including Carol, and you know, they're like,

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every little interview is like a piece of the puzzle,

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and then it's my job to put that puzzle together

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and make it coherent to a certain degree. But I

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really love and then the rabbit holes you go down,

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I mean, to dive Maggie Bush scandal was amazing, to

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dive into ed Orgeron and Lane Kiffin and to go

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down to you know, at the time he was still

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at Old Miss When I interviewed him, but just to

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go down and hang out with him for a couple

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of days and like, you know, see what he's doing

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and get his thoughts and how this influenced him. And

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then to compare guys like Pete Carroll to Nick Saban

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or Bill Belichick, it's really really fascinating. He's so different

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from those guys. And you know, it worked. It didn't

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work quite as well as Belichick's I guess the NFL

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didn't like work quite as well as as a Saban

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in college, but man, it worked well. See.

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Speaker 1: The thing is, though, is that with Pete Carroll it

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almost you know, I get that vibration that he's just

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that dude next door that has a guard in his backyard.

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He likes his deer. He's so every bit of us.

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And then if you if you give him a great compliment,

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he's like, all right, that's fine, But did you see

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everybody else around me? Did you see that I had

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some assistant coaches and players and things. It's not all me?

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Speaker 2: Yep, exactly. No, he was really great about I mean,

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look at his coaching tree right now. Yeah, Lame Kiffin,

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Steve Sarksian, I mean, the probably are two of the

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top whatever five ten coaches in college football right now.

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I mean the guys that learned under him. He's always

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been good about about promoting them, and yeah, I agree.

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He's very much like give other people credit where it's

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deserved well.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that you talk about inside

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this book that should be felt by all fans, but

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most of them, you know, don't really buy into it,

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and that is is that when you lose, you lose

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a part of yourself, and you should be losing a

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part of yourself. For instance, like with the Panthers not

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going to the next level of the playoffs. Yeah, we're hurting,

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we're planning, we're going what the hell is going on here?

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And it's like that's part of the game, and you're

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writing about it inside this book.

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Speaker 2: Yep. It's it's kind of all about how you react

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to those things, right, I mean, the Panthers are fascinating

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to me. Are they going to take the next step up?

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Or was this the high water mark? You know? And

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this is you know, I mean, but this is the

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this is the question, right, It's a you see this

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in the USC book they had when Pete Carroll got there,

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he was not people didn't want him to be. The

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USC alum didn't want him there because he'd been terrible

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in the NFL, and he started off one and four

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in his first season and all the people all in

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uproar like that. But he stayed steady, built a team,

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you know. I mean, there's you mentioned the nine openings.

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There's uh, there's a little bit of a knee jerk

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thing going on. I mean, you see, like the Browns

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seem to fire their coach every year. The Raiders seemed

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to fire their coach every year. Uh. But then again,

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you know, the Steelers seemed to hold onto their coach

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too long. The Ravens seemed to you know, So there's

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a real fine balance here. It's it's coaching. Is just

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I find football coaches, especially at that level NFL and

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time college should just be absolutely fascinating people.

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Speaker 1: Is it a levitation game in the way that in

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radio we do everything we can to get to certain markets.

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We'll be there maybe six months to a year, then gone, gone, gone.

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And every time that I look at what's going on

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in any kind of you know, college sports or pro sports,

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it's like, man, they're playing the radio game. They're here

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for a moment and then I gotta go because I'm

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building my future.

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Speaker 2: Yep. I feel like it's exacerbated by social media and

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stuff like that. I mean, if you go on it's

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so funny to go on Twitter after a playoff game

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and see the team, the people who support with the

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team that lost. They're all like fire the coach this.

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I mean, you see, Alabama is at a great example.

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Calen de bor is a very good coach, but just

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because he hasn't won a title, because he hasn't done

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what Saban did, people are all open arms. You get

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to give him one more year, one more year. I mean,

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there's just no patience with our sort of social media

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ecosystem right now. See.

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Speaker 1: I wish I would have Pete Carroll could have sat

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down with Bryce Young of the Panthers and during that

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moment where we all wanted him out, we wanted Rice

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gone right now. I wonder what Pete would have said

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to them, and I have this feeling he would have said, look,

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go look in the mirror, say hey, look, you're great

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at what you do. You're the best that you can do.

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In this moment, Let's work with everybody else so that

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we can work as one.

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Speaker 2: Yep. Tried to. He always tried at USC in particular,

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to keep his players even though they were out. They

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became I mean, Liner and Reggie Bush became as famous

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as some of the celebrities used to come to the games,

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but to keep everything kind of in house and only

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worry about what they could control, to not listen to

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the noise. Of course, there was a little less noise

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back then. There wasn't social media, it wasn't really in existence.

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But still he did a very good job of keeping that.

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I think the best coaches do that. I think they

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have a way of keeping their players kind of in

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this sort of you know, protected state where they can

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operate and at peak performance and not worry about the

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outside noise. But man, that is hard to do these days.

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I feel like it's everywhere.

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Speaker 1: So you've dedicated the book to Heidi and Hansel. Now

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those are probably two of the people that I would

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hear you say, give me five more minutes, five more minutes.

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I'm onto something. Don't let me go just yet. Come on,

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we give me five more minutes and then we're on

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our way. Am I right or wrong on this?

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Speaker 2: You're very right. There is my mother and my wife

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who are the most wonderful women in the world, and

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the most forgiving women in the world, and forgiving of

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all my you know, I'll be driving and say, hey,

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can you write this down with guy at this thought

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about this thing, you know, yeah, so I just mean,

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they're incredibly supportive and great, you know, people in their

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own right, and you know, so, yeah, I'm very happy

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I got to be able to acknowledge them.

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Speaker 1: Well, we got to give credit to the person that

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inspired you to be so descriptive like you are, because

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I got to be honest with you that final two

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minutes and thirteen seconds in that game, clock, I actually

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I started to sweat and get nervous because that, to

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me is the brilliant writer, the brilliant storyteller that made

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me feel that anxiety in two minutes and thirteen seconds.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that very much. I loved going through those games.

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I mean, particularly that National title game was just so

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so fun to go through it frame by frame, watch

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it fifteen twenty times. But also talk to the people

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who were there, you know, talk to Pete Care What

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were you thinking when you made that call for Lyndelle

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White to go forward on fourth down? What were you

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thinking on fourth and five when Vince Young has the ball,

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what play did you call? I actually I called the

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interview the Texas defensive coordinator as well and asked him

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what play he called. So it's so fun to go

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through and kind of you know, again, that's what time

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helps with that a little bit. I don't think you

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get all that, you know, necessarily a year after the

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game happened. I think it well thought about it. They're

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willing to talk about it. So super fun to do.

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Speaker 1: So when you sit down and you have a conversation,

402
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not an interview, but a conversation with over one hundred

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and fifty people to put this book together, do you

404
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ever just sit down with Pete and go, I know

405
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some junk, I've heard some stuff along the way. Do

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you want to talk about it now or do we

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just bring it up in a normal talk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's a really interesting thing about interviewing people.

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So you know, what you usually do is you saved

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that stuff for sort of the last interview one of them,

411
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you know, But with Pete, Pete was pretty open. So

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I just said, hey, here are some things I found

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that you're not going to like, And I was right,

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he did not like him, and if it were up

415
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to him, you know, if it was his book, he

416
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probably wouldn't have put him in there. But you know,

417
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my job is to be sort of objective, you know,

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just the facts kind of deal. And so you know,

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there are some things in here which I think he'll love,

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and there's some things in here which I think he

421
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won't love so much. But again, my job is to

422
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do my job and not necessarily write, you know, his

423
00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:36,359
book for him. It's to write the definitive, objective story

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of this incredible nine year era at USC.

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Speaker 1: God, you've got to come back to this show anytime

426
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in the future. I haven't even gotten started yet, dude,

427
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I'd love to all right, will you be brilliant today? Okay, sir,

428
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:48,799
thank you.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate having on