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<v Speaker 1>Hey, folks, we're recording at chain Links Smart Cohn and

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<v Speaker 1>joining me is Jillian Friedman, who is the chief operating

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<v Speaker 1>officer at Symbiotic. Jillian, great to have.

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<v Speaker 2>You, Thank you for having me. Excited.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, excited to dive into Symbiotic. I would love to

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<v Speaker 1>start with your background, because you have a very fascinating background.

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<v Speaker 1>You were in TRADFI, you also ran a debt, so

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<v Speaker 1>tell us a bit about yourself there.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, I actually launched my career as a bitcoin lawyer

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<v Speaker 2>back before there only was bitcoin, got to deal with

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<v Speaker 2>all of those initial legal challenges around icos when Ethereum

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<v Speaker 2>was launched in twenty fourteen. Sure kind of spent the

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<v Speaker 2>first half of my career beating the crypto blockchain drum

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<v Speaker 2>to the traditional finance world with varying degrees of success.

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<v Speaker 2>And then as the I was the head of digital

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<v Speaker 2>asset strategy at one of Canada's big banks. But right

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<v Speaker 2>before Symbiotic, I was the COO and CFO of one

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<v Speaker 2>of the first digital asset treasury companies called ether Capital,

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<v Speaker 2>before they were a thing, and so really got to

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<v Speaker 2>experience firsthand staking, institutional staking and like what that frontier

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<v Speaker 2>looks like.

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<v Speaker 1>That's incredible. You're an OG jillion, I'm old. Yeah, you

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<v Speaker 1>I mean you're around when was just a bitcoin and

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<v Speaker 1>then being early to dats as well is pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and a lot of the challenges related to dats

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<v Speaker 2>as well. Yeah, it's been really interesting seeing the evolution

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<v Speaker 2>from the institutional perspective, and like, you know, there's that

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<v Speaker 2>expression that people people overestimate how quickly technology will impact things,

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<v Speaker 2>and they underestimate what the impact will be. Sure, kind

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<v Speaker 2>of burgering it, but like I think that's true. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>like ten years ago, we were kind of just using

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<v Speaker 2>different words for the same thing, Like they weren't RWA's,

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<v Speaker 2>they were called something else. They weren't called stable coins,

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<v Speaker 2>they were called something else. But it's really exciting now

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<v Speaker 2>because you're seeing some of that stuff actually manifest So

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<v Speaker 2>it's been really cool to watch.

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<v Speaker 1>Is it validating for you, you know, being an OG

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<v Speaker 1>and seeing all the adoptions happening, I would tradify it

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<v Speaker 1>seems everybody is looking to integrate blockchain in some way

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<v Speaker 1>or some fashion.

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely validating, And it's also I take things with

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<v Speaker 2>a big grain of salt because I still believe that

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<v Speaker 2>product market fit is a lot further away than people

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<v Speaker 2>think for a lot of these different tech solutions. Sure,

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<v Speaker 2>And what is exciting though, is seeing product market fit

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<v Speaker 2>happen with, for example, stable coins, like we run almost

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<v Speaker 2>our entire business on stable coin rails. Sure, that's really exciting.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, so it's validating and it also gives like

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<v Speaker 2>some perspective of like, okay, yeah, like some of this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff is happening with some of this stuff is further

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<v Speaker 2>away than we realize. Not from a tech perspective, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>it's really from a product market fit.

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<v Speaker 1>And do you think the product market fit lag if

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<v Speaker 1>you want to call it, that is related to lack

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<v Speaker 1>of crypto legislation or clarity in addition to we're still

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<v Speaker 1>in the trial and error phase for some of these things.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a mix, regulation being one of them,

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<v Speaker 2>but not the only one. Sure, if you're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>like retail for example, or just mass adoption, the on

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<v Speaker 2>off apps and like the ease of access is critical.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're talking about capital markets, which is more I

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<v Speaker 2>would say institutional adoption, and where I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like we could speak about symbiotic as well, and like

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<v Speaker 2>what we're doing, there's there's missing, there's there's missing pieces

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<v Speaker 2>that need to be built, but there's also like the

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<v Speaker 2>need to and we're talking about this before, like communicate,

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<v Speaker 2>communicate the opportunity and like switch things from very very

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<v Speaker 2>technical to like speaking the language of whether it's capital

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<v Speaker 2>markets people or martial bankers or etc. And like making

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<v Speaker 2>them understand opportunity and vice versa.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it feels like some of that is happening, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's not fully there yet.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I think some of it's happening, yeah, and it's yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>like the floodgates are open. I think this is the

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<v Speaker 2>most exciting time, yeah, to be in crypto, other than

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<v Speaker 2>like maybe ten plus years ago, when it was like

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<v Speaker 2>everything was like the first time stuff was happening right,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was still so uncertain, like is e theory

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be a thing like what's bitcoin? Bitcoin's

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<v Speaker 2>died like twenty times or something. Right to have to

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<v Speaker 2>have the access that you have now and the political

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<v Speaker 2>will that you have now and the regulatory clarity from

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<v Speaker 2>like the world's biggest markets, absolutely can't like no better

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<v Speaker 2>time to be in the space.

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<v Speaker 1>It's exciting. And here in the United States going to

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<v Speaker 1>you're not based in the United States, Here in Canada,

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<v Speaker 1>we're waiting on that Market Structure Clarity Act, and I

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<v Speaker 1>can't wait to see the innovation and the economic boom

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<v Speaker 1>that comes from that once everybody knows what the rules

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<v Speaker 1>of the role are.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I would qualify that with a with a butt,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think this is happening. This is going to

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<v Speaker 2>happen as well in Canada. There's actually a budget coming

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<v Speaker 2>out today and it's very likely that there will be

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<v Speaker 2>insight into how they plan to regulate stable coins and

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<v Speaker 2>just the crypto markets in general. And take for example,

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<v Speaker 2>the issue of yield bearing stable coins and the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that in like the US bills, it seems like it's

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<v Speaker 2>still still like complicated and unclear how an entity could

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<v Speaker 2>issue and launch a yield bearing stable cooin on how

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<v Speaker 2>that could like circulate in the market.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, and you.

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<v Speaker 2>Know it's clearly like the banks and many financial institutions

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<v Speaker 2>make a lot of money keeping that yield for themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>And so this is another like, yes, clarity is important,

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<v Speaker 2>but also like what type of clarity and what kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like openness it creates for innovation and competitiveness in

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<v Speaker 2>the market.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, put, I think to your point, like the

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<v Speaker 1>Genius Act was pastor in the United States, but there's

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<v Speaker 1>still some pushback from some of the banks. There's still

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<v Speaker 1>talks of how this will be implemented and executed and

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<v Speaker 1>so forth. So it's still still some work to be done. Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to make sure we are able to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about symbiotic. Yeah, what is symbiotic?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So symbiotic is universal staking framework. We built the

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<v Speaker 2>rails to enable assets on chain that are not being utilized,

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<v Speaker 2>to enable them to become productive by securing or underwriting

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<v Speaker 2>risk on chain. And so think of like symbiotic as

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<v Speaker 2>the progression of staking into the establishment of risk transfer

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<v Speaker 2>markets on chain, which, like circling back to what we

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<v Speaker 2>were talking about before, is really a critical piece for

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<v Speaker 2>a capital markets ecosystem to thrive on chain, whether that's

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<v Speaker 2>DeFi or the next like iteration of DeFi. Sure, so

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<v Speaker 2>like kind of v one of like the staking primitive

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<v Speaker 2>was eth staking, like just proof.

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<v Speaker 1>Of steak right.

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<v Speaker 2>Version two restaking, which is what we are involved in,

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<v Speaker 2>which is taking staked capital or even unstaked capital, but

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<v Speaker 2>as it's on chain. Even now with bitcoin, we have

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<v Speaker 2>a number of vaults that have wrapped bitcoin that are

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<v Speaker 2>securing via staking, not just networks, but a whole range

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<v Speaker 2>of on chain activities, whether it's like fast finality, interoperability,

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<v Speaker 2>data availability, and then version three or what we're building

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<v Speaker 2>towards is now additional like financial products.

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<v Speaker 1>And you mentioned wrap bitcoin, you mentioned e theorem. Are

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<v Speaker 1>you supporting a variety of proof of steake blockchains like

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<v Speaker 1>Solana and others.

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<v Speaker 2>So the great thing about our infrastructure is how modular

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<v Speaker 2>it is and composable, like not to drop a bunch

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<v Speaker 2>of buzzwords, but like it actually accurately describes the symbiotic stack.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's really designed for any any chain, network or

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<v Speaker 2>activity that requires some sort of economic security can leverage

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<v Speaker 2>our plumbing to plug into economic security so long as

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<v Speaker 2>there is capital willing to secure that activity.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it. So you're very much interoperable with many different

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<v Speaker 1>block chains. You're kind of infrastructure for staking essentially and

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<v Speaker 1>giving a broader reach for ye.

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<v Speaker 2>It's basically like proof of steak as a service in

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<v Speaker 2>a way that's actually interoperable. Because we see the way

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<v Speaker 2>that the space is evolving. Interoperability is super important. Projects

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<v Speaker 2>are being built in an interoperable way. Sure you know

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<v Speaker 2>you can stake once secure many chains. We're also we've

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<v Speaker 2>announced I think last week or maybe it was this week,

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<v Speaker 2>a new endeavor with chain Link and Solve. A couple

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<v Speaker 2>of weeks earlier was with chain Link and Lombard. And

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<v Speaker 2>so are users that are utilizing like the c c

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<v Speaker 2>IP interoperability can plug into symbiotics shared security two secure

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<v Speaker 2>like the data that's being executed and moved around there.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh sure, and your your infrastructure that can be used

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<v Speaker 1>by institutions globally if whether it be in a crypto

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<v Speaker 1>exchange or a black rock or things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course can be used by It can be used

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<v Speaker 2>by anyone. And I think what's really interesting about having

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<v Speaker 2>institutions be getting to the point that they can operate

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<v Speaker 2>in the restaking or universe staking world is that they

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<v Speaker 2>bring a certain flavor of expertise that will be very

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<v Speaker 2>useful for the next generation of activities that are being

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<v Speaker 2>secured or underwritten via staking. So imagine collateral guarantees of

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<v Speaker 2>credit facilities. That there's a credit facility, if there's a

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<v Speaker 2>default on the credit, there's a guarantee or like some

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<v Speaker 2>people call it insurance, but really a guarantee that is

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<v Speaker 2>represented via a vault that has assets in it. And

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<v Speaker 2>so those assets get paid out a yield as part

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<v Speaker 2>of like the interest payments. But then if there's a

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<v Speaker 2>default on the credit facility, then those assets would get

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<v Speaker 2>like slashed or they wouldn't be burned, but they would

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<v Speaker 2>be like redistributed back to the original lender. This is

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<v Speaker 2>the type of thing that traditional commercial lending markets have

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<v Speaker 2>been engaging in for centuries, like having the concept of

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<v Speaker 2>like guarantees on loans.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, we're just.

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<v Speaker 2>Like optimizing it for DeFi and a permissionless market.

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<v Speaker 1>That's great. I know institutions and even look the average

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<v Speaker 1>show all us in hunt for yield and had to

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<v Speaker 1>get the most interest because banks they're not giving as

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<v Speaker 1>much interests anymore. And I personally steak and I earn

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<v Speaker 1>more interest than I do from my savings account. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's really great. And are you able to say what

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<v Speaker 1>type of institutions are using your service? Any names that

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<v Speaker 1>you can drop, It's okay.

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<v Speaker 2>If not, so it's like yes and no. The reality

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<v Speaker 2>is our service is permissionless. Okay, so we know through

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<v Speaker 2>for example, one of our newer would I would to

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<v Speaker 2>say products, but newer types of services that are infrastructure

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<v Speaker 2>securing is called CAP and that's really we're underwriting stable

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<v Speaker 2>coin yield strategies and a number of their partners are

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<v Speaker 2>like traditional financial institutions. I think Franklin Templeton is one

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<v Speaker 2>of them, and so like we welcome any partner or

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<v Speaker 2>whether it's traditional finance, a partner of traditional finance to

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<v Speaker 2>come and build on Symbiotic. You know, right now most

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<v Speaker 2>of the interactions are with more DeFi native, but we're

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<v Speaker 2>starting to see that change, and like hopefully we'll have

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<v Speaker 2>some announcements soon, but I can't really share.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, on a note, what are some of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that are on your roadmap that we could potentially

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<v Speaker 1>expect in twenty twenty six.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so definitely some things to be excited about is

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<v Speaker 2>the transition towards additional yield. A lot of a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of projects that will be generating fees or like having tgs,

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<v Speaker 2>which means that if you're staking or restaking to secure

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<v Speaker 2>these networks, like the yield that you generate will become

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<v Speaker 2>more interesting. Sure, we're also really excited about this expansion

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<v Speaker 2>of the use cases with our tech infrastructure. So like

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<v Speaker 2>we started with restaking to secured networks and various like

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<v Speaker 2>blockchain activity, now it's transitioning first with cap but soon

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<v Speaker 2>with others to be announced to underwrite or secure financial activity.

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<v Speaker 2>And so so we have the tech, we have the

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<v Speaker 2>infrastructure to do that. We have like proof of proof

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<v Speaker 2>of concepts or like a great very successful product market

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<v Speaker 2>fit there with underwriting these stable coins and so that's

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<v Speaker 2>you know, an area that we're actively building building into.

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<v Speaker 1>This may seem like a silly question, but I'm very

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<v Speaker 1>curious about it. So you mentioned like wrap bitcoin, stable

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<v Speaker 1>coins and so forth, and outside of just regular proof

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<v Speaker 1>of steak blockchains like Ethan Solona that where you can

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<v Speaker 1>earn off the network. Is does this infrastructure allow to

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much wrap anything like even tokenized assets and put

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<v Speaker 1>it to work.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, like in short, the answer is yes.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we say, like you can stake almost any

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<v Speaker 2>asset to secure almost any network without getting into like

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<v Speaker 2>the technical components, which I can't I'm not the best

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<v Speaker 2>person to speak to about that. But really the the

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<v Speaker 2>the answer is more about demand and interest, like is

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<v Speaker 2>there appetite or an interest to secure a network with

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<v Speaker 2>like an RWA that represents ownership in a condo association?

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<v Speaker 2>Is there? Like it's it's really more about like the tech,

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<v Speaker 2>the tech can do almost anything. Like that's that's not

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<v Speaker 2>the the obstacle or the thing that we need to

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<v Speaker 2>stop and think about. It's really about PMF and about

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<v Speaker 2>finding the right like commercial sweet spot for for how

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<v Speaker 2>to best utilize these assets. Like an easier example with

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<v Speaker 2>that is even stable coins, stable coins proxy for the

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<v Speaker 2>US dollar. It's it's sort of it's a question of

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<v Speaker 2>like cost of capital, like can you if you can

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<v Speaker 2>generate whatever like money market yield is in an account

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<v Speaker 2>through a money market account, or even like chain, what's

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<v Speaker 2>the how does that compete with like the yield that

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<v Speaker 2>you would get by restaking a stable coin. And up

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<v Speaker 2>until recently, like that analysis has resulted in like stable

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<v Speaker 2>there's not like a ton of stable coins and restaking

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<v Speaker 2>to get yield. Okay, I think that will change, sure,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, it's it's a question of economics as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. I'm excited for the future

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<v Speaker 1>of staking. You know, at one point here in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States that got shut off.

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<v Speaker 2>I know, it's crazy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's been turned back on. Yeah, but what do

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<v Speaker 1>you think the future of staking looks like? I know

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<v Speaker 1>that's a very open ending question and very macro, but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what let's say twenty thirty twenty thirty five,

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<v Speaker 1>with more people are coming on chain, how do you

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<v Speaker 1>think they interact with steaking?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, like this is one take, could you know, finger

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<v Speaker 2>to the wind, crystal ball. I don't hold me to it,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think like the definition of what staking means

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<v Speaker 2>is evolving to like really just reference the concept of

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<v Speaker 2>allocating something of value to a certain activity or to

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<v Speaker 2>ensure underwrite a certain activity, and then in return for

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<v Speaker 2>yield with the and the risk exposure is slashing. Like

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<v Speaker 2>I find staking, the concept of staking, the concept of slashing.

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<v Speaker 2>The concepts of like rewards or like they have all

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<v Speaker 2>versions in traditional markets and in like financial structures that

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<v Speaker 2>have been around for a long time. So I think

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<v Speaker 2>the future of staking is to absorb more of that

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<v Speaker 2>that type of activity, and so could mean more than

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<v Speaker 2>just securing a network and curing transactions and validating transactions.

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<v Speaker 2>It could mean underwriting as I mentioned, like credit markets,

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<v Speaker 2>it could mean ensuring a whole range of different types

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<v Speaker 2>of activities, whether it's on chain or off chain. Sure,

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<v Speaker 2>and so that's how I see staking evolving. And then

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<v Speaker 2>and of course with restaking to also secure networks and

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<v Speaker 2>like the backbone of blockchain is economic security, so staking

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<v Speaker 2>will always be there. It's like a question of like

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<v Speaker 2>how much can we optimize it, Like vanilla steaking is

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<v Speaker 2>like step one, right.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I'm curious to see how it evolves, especially

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<v Speaker 1>when institutions coming in and then having a more global

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<v Speaker 1>or having more participants globally in the crypto asset class.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's exciting, yeah, bullish, Yeah for sure, Jillian, Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you so much, looking forward to the future updates around Symbiotic.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you

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<v Speaker 1>for having me this episode. It is brought to you

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