Speaker 1: Oh Bread of Bard, Hello, and welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: This is the Cult of Conspiracy and I am the
Speaker 2: Cajun night and tonight we have one a very special guest.
Speaker 2: We had some scheduling conflicts, right and you know what,
Speaker 2: we will take the absolute brunt of the guilt as
Speaker 2: far as that's concerned.
Speaker 3: Here at the Cold Conspiracy.
Speaker 2: We've be pumping out so many episodes at such a
Speaker 2: rapid rate that sometimes some things go by the wayside.
Speaker 2: But you know what, we're rectifying that situation. We're happening
Speaker 2: right now. Ike Baker from the Arcanum podcast, Brother, what
Speaker 2: is going on?
Speaker 4: Well, thanks for having me and yeah it's no, no, no, right,
Speaker 4: All's well that ends well. So we are here, and uh,
Speaker 4: I'm really excited to kind of get into it. Thank
Speaker 4: you for having me on. And I'm quite interested to
Speaker 4: see what topics for conversation you guys have lined up.
Speaker 3: I mean, to be honest with you, there's a lot
Speaker 3: that we could go down.
Speaker 2: Just for anybody who doesn't know, Ike Baker is a
Speaker 2: I don't want to use the term expert, but I
Speaker 2: also feel like it wouldn't be correct to not use
Speaker 2: the term expert of arcane magic with a kesotericism, alchemy,
Speaker 2: magic with a K Masonic history.
Speaker 3: Believe it or not, We're going all over the place here,
Speaker 3: so I believe it or not.
Speaker 2: Your boy is kind of a jack of all trades,
Speaker 2: master of some you know. To be determined for those
Speaker 2: that have never heard of you, please, I give the
Speaker 2: rundown the elevator speech.
Speaker 3: Who are you and what are you about?
Speaker 4: I am a local wizard and I have drawings for sale.
Speaker 4: I well, I it's a long story, but as of today,
Speaker 4: I am an initiative senior initiator of the Hermetic Order
Speaker 4: of the Golden Dawn. I am an administrator. I'm a
Speaker 4: temple chief of the North Carolina Temple h O g D.
Speaker 4: Which is in Asheville. I am a practicing Martinist. I
Speaker 4: am a Freemason and Masonic historian, so on and so forth.
Speaker 4: I belong to a lot of these initiatory orders in
Speaker 4: the Western esoteric tradition, and at this point in my
Speaker 4: life I'm I'm doing. You know. I have a podcast
Speaker 4: Arcandom where I bring on arguably the foremost authorities, whether
Speaker 4: they're authors, practitioners, scholars in the field on Western esotericism
Speaker 4: and philosophy, and all that fun stuff, and I try
Speaker 4: to have conversations with them, and it's the show has been.
Speaker 4: It's been a real blessing in my life, and I've
Speaker 4: been able to go on to teach and write books.
Speaker 4: I'm on my third. I got two more in the
Speaker 4: pipeline for next year. Yeah, and and and to teach
Speaker 4: and to present all over the world. I go to
Speaker 4: Egypt every year to present and host a conference, and
Speaker 4: I take people on immersive excursions where we study the history, theory,
Speaker 4: and practice of Western ceremonial in these places. I go
Speaker 4: to London every year. This year I'll be in Amsterdam
Speaker 4: and Parma, Italy doing some talks. So a whole lot
Speaker 4: of stuff. But it really starts with the Hermetic Order
Speaker 4: of the Golden Dawn. I sort of like stumbled into
Speaker 4: them when I was about nineteen years old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so we're gonna have to break down a
Speaker 2: few things you just said before you get to raven
Speaker 2: Ly and I's questions.
Speaker 3: So, okay, Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
Speaker 2: And you also said you are a Freemason, and then
Speaker 2: there was one other organization that you say, you're the Martinis.
Speaker 3: If I'm not mistaken correct.
Speaker 4: Yeah, those are the ones I can talk about.
Speaker 3: Okay, fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 2: So for anybody who does not know, Ravenly and I
Speaker 2: have talked about the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn primarily,
Speaker 2: and I don't mean this in a insulting way. The
Speaker 2: Battle of blythe Road has been brought up a couple
Speaker 2: of times on this podcast, where Alistair Crowley went against
Speaker 2: young in them and basically through his magical incantations and
Speaker 2: hand sigils and basically they were trying to have like
Speaker 2: a magical duel until finally the members of the Hermetic
Speaker 2: Order of the Golden Dawn decided, fuck this guy in
Speaker 2: roundhouse his ass and like beat the absolute shit at
Speaker 2: him physically. So for those that don't know, give the
Speaker 2: breakdown from your understanding of what the Hermetic Order of
Speaker 2: the Golden Dawn is, please.
Speaker 4: Sure, sure, there there's so there's Let me just say
Speaker 4: about the Battle of black Blathe Road that it's there's
Speaker 4: I am no fan of Crowley whatsoever.
Speaker 3: Good but because you shouldn't be correct, but.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of legend in in that whole uh,
Speaker 4: in that whole account that it's but it's fun, it's fun.
Speaker 4: It's one of the things that makes the Hermetic Order
Speaker 4: of the Golden Dawn as a feature of you know,
Speaker 4: findeska occult history so so so much fun and so
Speaker 4: so interesting, so fascinating because of all the cast of
Speaker 4: characters that were a part of this. A lot of
Speaker 4: people sure don't realize it, but so so. The Harmonical
Speaker 4: Order of the Golden Dun was formed by three Freemasons
Speaker 4: in London in eighteen eighty eight. And these Freemasons belonged
Speaker 4: to a para Masonic or I guess what we would
Speaker 4: call a concordant body called the SRIA, the Societys Rosicruciana
Speaker 4: in Anglia, and which is.
Speaker 2: The Roscrucion order of the Freemasons.
Speaker 3: Well, let me rephrase this.
Speaker 2: They were not a order of the Freemasons that were
Speaker 2: RESICUTIONI they were Masons that happened to also be Rosicrusions
Speaker 2: that founded their own thing.
Speaker 4: Correct, Well, it was. It's technically what we call like
Speaker 4: a concordant or an appendent. So it's not the three
Speaker 4: craft degrees of freemasonry, the first, second and third degrees
Speaker 4: right entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft and Master Mason. Those are definitively.
Speaker 4: And I don't give a shit what anybody says about
Speaker 4: about the thirty thirds and stuff. I really don't. I'm
Speaker 4: a Masonic story and I know many thirty thirds. If
Speaker 4: a thirty third came to my Blue ladge and tried
Speaker 4: to order me around, I could respectfully tell him to
Speaker 4: go fuck himself and he'd have no recourse. So, because
Speaker 4: there is no higher degree than the third in Freemason right,
Speaker 4: degrees one through three are vertical movement within the fraternity,
Speaker 4: the York right, the Scottish rite, it's horizontal movie movement.
Speaker 4: They're side quests now, prequels and sequels.
Speaker 5: We just did an episode on this literally like a
Speaker 5: day ago.
Speaker 2: So I'm not saying this to push back. I am
Speaker 2: asking this strictly as an outside observer.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So there are those there are those Freemasons that would
Speaker 2: say that what you are saying is absolutely ridiculous, and
Speaker 2: there's no way that a thirty second degree could even
Speaker 2: come to the same playing field of a third degree
Speaker 2: Scottish York doesn't matter. They had this elitist entitlement air
Speaker 2: about them.
Speaker 3: What is your response.
Speaker 4: I have never met any of him, and I've traveled
Speaker 4: I traveled the country, I've troubled the world and spoke
Speaker 4: for scenary. I will say that within the Scottish Right,
Speaker 4: which is an appendant body, it's not the core of Freemasonry.
Speaker 4: Now within the Scottish Right, there there's, there's, there's. You know,
Speaker 4: we have the Northern jurisdiction and the Southern jurisdiction. The
Speaker 4: Southern jurisdiction is what everybody knows, because the Southern jurisdiction
Speaker 4: is is they run the Pike rituals. That everybody talking
Speaker 4: about Albert Pike and how he I mean, he was
Speaker 4: a really really shitty author, not much of an esthetetical.
Speaker 3: Have you read Morals Indulgent? I mean yes, but we've
Speaker 3: read some of it.
Speaker 5: I read we were reading some of it the other
Speaker 5: day and I was like, God, blessed, this is terrible.
Speaker 5: That was actually what my question is going to be.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 2: I loved the sound of his own voice and wanted
Speaker 2: you to know that he was so fucking smart.
Speaker 3: He wanted that.
Speaker 4: Well, well, here here's the thing. He does in one
Speaker 4: of his prefaces talk about how he is not the
Speaker 4: originator of much of what he put in that book.
Speaker 4: He was he rather thought of himself more as a compiler,
Speaker 4: which is true because he lifted whole cloth from people
Speaker 4: like Eli Fos Levy and even Victor Hugo, right he
Speaker 4: wrote let me, but he does take on this really
Speaker 4: really obnoxious, pretentious writing style. And now here's the thing.
Speaker 4: He's lifting whole cloth from Levy, He's lifting from Victor Hugo,
Speaker 4: He's lifting from all the many French sources and in
Speaker 4: the textual corporal the body of work from the you know,
Speaker 4: the eighteenth, nineteenth, and early twentieth centuries. Of course that
Speaker 4: he's writing in the nineteenth in the nineteenth century or
Speaker 4: the eighteen hundreds, but the occult literature from that time
Speaker 4: had a very distinct style in France, which was to
Speaker 4: sort of like play this little weird dancy four play
Speaker 4: game where it's like I'm gonna say a bunch of
Speaker 4: high sounding mystical shit and I'm going to talk a
Speaker 4: lot about what's behind the curtain, but I'm not going
Speaker 4: to tell you, and I'm gonna be like concealing more
Speaker 4: than i'm revealing. And every single time I've encountered that
Speaker 4: in person, they just it's a cover for they don't
Speaker 4: know what they're talking about. Right, So I live in
Speaker 4: the South, and uh, I'm not a fan of Pike.
Speaker 4: And and you know, so there there are there are
Speaker 4: Masons that can't understand why I don't like Pike, Why I'm.
Speaker 2: Not amazing to not be a fan of Pike. That's
Speaker 2: a wild statement. Break this down.
Speaker 4: You see you see it, you see it. The problem is, like,
Speaker 4: it's rare to get your average Mason on a fucking podcast.
Speaker 4: It's rare to get like those those people aren't like
Speaker 4: you're you're you're what we call knife and fork Masons,
Speaker 4: the people who show up for dinner and charity, I mean.
Speaker 3: Like, which is the majority of Masons.
Speaker 2: For the record, most of them, they're going for the networking,
Speaker 2: they're going for the charitable outreach of it. They're going
Speaker 2: for to say they're a Mason. And that's like they're
Speaker 2: not a part of like the clique, if you want
Speaker 2: to get real technical about it, Like I mean, the
Speaker 2: thing is, the thing is.
Speaker 4: The only clicks that there are are the grand lodge systems.
Speaker 4: Because what people don't understand about Freemasonry is that it's
Speaker 4: completely in the United States, Freemasonry is completely decentralized, So
Speaker 4: there's no Grand headquarters. There's no Grand headquarters for Freemasonry.
Speaker 4: Each state is its own sovereign. So the highest Mustonic
Speaker 4: authority in my my my state is the Grand Lodge
Speaker 4: of North Carolina. And I happen to know many of
Speaker 4: the people that that are in there, and they're you know,
Speaker 4: they have regular jobs.
Speaker 2: I mean they were so to push back slightly, and
Speaker 2: I would love to hear your retort to say that
Speaker 2: the Grand Lodge in Washington, d c. Presides over the
Speaker 2: Grand Lodge of North Carolina.
Speaker 3: You say, absolutely not break this down, really, no way.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean this is these are fundamental things people
Speaker 4: that have they just don't understand it. It's there is
Speaker 4: no central governing Masonic body through and through and through
Speaker 4: and through there never has been in the United States.
Speaker 4: What we do is we have uh concordats uh where
Speaker 4: we we or we say okay, like there are certain things, right,
Speaker 4: I'll use this example. There's this thing called Prince Hall masonry.
Speaker 3: Right, black black masonry, right right, yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean it's still predominantly black in a lot of places.
Speaker 4: So various states, particularly in the South, have chosen to
Speaker 4: either acknowledge them, which is it's a kindness. They still operate,
Speaker 4: their lives don't change, but it's it's it's like it's
Speaker 4: like a sign of respect. Okay, we acknowledge, we know
Speaker 4: so so some now some lodges that down in the South,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to go into the whole certain name
Speaker 4: and names and Louisiana.
Speaker 2: I know a few Prince Hall Masonry liges versus some
Speaker 2: that claim that, oh, we would never accept a black Mason,
Speaker 2: even though they will accept women Masons today but not
Speaker 2: black Masons. It's there's a lot of old school. I
Speaker 2: hate to be this way, but it's true. There are
Speaker 2: some lodges that still operate with a real sense of
Speaker 2: racism in their roots. There are some, not all, there
Speaker 2: are some.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well i'll finish my example here and I'll kind
Speaker 4: of tap tap into some of the things you said.
Speaker 4: Some states, the majority of the states, choose to recognize
Speaker 4: Prince Hall. When there is an issue and another state
Speaker 4: has not recognized Prince Hall or something, then other states
Speaker 4: can choose to sort of like not no longer have
Speaker 4: concord at or or no longer have amity. It's called
Speaker 4: actually with that lodge. So it's like we're all out
Speaker 4: here kind of just doing whatever the the Grand Lodge
Speaker 4: at the state level is doing. Now it's important that
Speaker 4: you that you mentioned that there there are lodges that
Speaker 4: that are are that can be inherently racist. It's because
Speaker 4: the a lodge is not a place. A lodge is
Speaker 4: the people.
Speaker 2: It is the same way the Christian faith believes that
Speaker 2: the church quote unquote is not the brick and mortar building,
Speaker 2: It is the inhabitants that come to.
Speaker 4: The body of Christ exactly, yeah, exactly, the living body
Speaker 4: of Christ. Yeah. So so it kind of works that
Speaker 4: way as far as there there are certain things to
Speaker 4: make sure that you stay in amity with the law,
Speaker 4: with with everybody, and and these are called you know
Speaker 4: the uh, there are keystones of freemasonry that keep you
Speaker 4: what are what we call it within regularity, right, Okay.
Speaker 4: So this would be being a man being of age
Speaker 4: at which you know, in some place used to be twenty.
Speaker 3: One, now it's eighteen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. And you believe in a higher power, okay,
Speaker 4: and that that higher power can't be you know, Satan
Speaker 4: for the most part. It's got it has to be
Speaker 4: you know, a recognizable form of worship of the divine
Speaker 4: in some way, so or you know, an understanding of
Speaker 4: the of the divine, a belief in the divine. The
Speaker 4: Golden don is the same way. The Golden Dawn is
Speaker 4: a little stricter because we are not a democracy. In
Speaker 4: the Golden Dawn. It's a hierarchy, and it's it's it's
Speaker 4: a benevolent hierarchy for sure. But you know, like we don't.
Speaker 4: We don't accept anybody that's actively doing any left hand
Speaker 4: path work, so Satanism, anything having to do with Crowley
Speaker 4: and any of his work. And I would say that
Speaker 4: when a Masonic, I, me and two other chiefs decide
Speaker 4: who gets into our temple, who gets initiated. Okay, in Freemasonry,
Speaker 4: every member of the lodge has to vote who's there
Speaker 4: for we receive notice, we'll be voting on this candidate.
Speaker 4: All the people who need to come. You need to
Speaker 4: become nobody's twisting their arm about anything, and and if
Speaker 4: we all vote them in, then then they're in. And
Speaker 4: a lot of times you will see that. And again
Speaker 4: this depends on the lodge, depends on the jurisdiction. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean there's not there's not necessarily a place in
Speaker 4: freemasonry for people who are actively pursuing Freemason, I mean
Speaker 4: Satanism or or even you know that people will normally
Speaker 4: keep the fact that they're doing any kind of crowlely
Speaker 4: work kind of hush hush because the overwhelming majority of Masons,
Speaker 4: particularly in the South, they're very they're very religious Christians.
Speaker 5: Okay, So so wow, I didn't know that, to be
Speaker 5: honest with you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because like like like a lot of the information
Speaker 4: out there is just like it's a bunch of people
Speaker 4: trying to figure it out from the outside in and
Speaker 4: then and then when people come out of the house
Speaker 4: to talk about what's going on there, they don't believe us.
Speaker 5: That's fair. It's what about overseas because like, okay, so
Speaker 5: if everybody is governing themselves within each state, what does
Speaker 5: overseas look like? Because when I was looking on the
Speaker 5: Mason site, like there was very it seemed like it
Speaker 5: was country to country how they actually did it. It wasn't
Speaker 5: just like city to city or state to state kind
Speaker 5: of thing. It's just like strictly like Germany had their
Speaker 5: own vibe going on versus France versus you know, is
Speaker 5: that what you've seen, Like do they practice different ways
Speaker 5: over there? Is this all inherently Masons really overall aren't
Speaker 5: really practicing in the demonic realm like a lot of
Speaker 5: people believe.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I mean it's it varies very, very widely.
Speaker 4: There's so the United Grand Lodge of England, right, that's
Speaker 4: the big body because it was the first one that
Speaker 4: was actually sort of formalized and put together in the
Speaker 4: early eighteenth century, and there was there were other forms
Speaker 4: of masonry happening, primarily in the UK or you know
Speaker 4: at the time, the the British Isles and in Scotland.
Speaker 4: So we have a lot of history of free Masonic lodges,
Speaker 4: right because they kept minute books where they recorded everything
Speaker 4: that was said and done, and we still that's that's
Speaker 4: something that we do today. Every lodge has to write
Speaker 4: down their minutes and all that stuff and read them
Speaker 4: to you know, out loud to the members at the
Speaker 4: next session, so on and so forth. So we have
Speaker 4: some of that stuff, I mean, dating as far back
Speaker 4: as the sixteen hundreds for in Scotland. Now the uglas
Speaker 4: we refer to it, right, the United Grand Lodge of
Speaker 4: England is a presiding body that we want. Most Grand
Speaker 4: Lodges in the United States want to have amity with
Speaker 4: them because they're legit. But it's a different kind of masonry.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 4: I belong to the SRIA, which was the college. I
Speaker 4: was the Rosie Crucian body. I was talking about, what is.
Speaker 3: That going to mean? Sr I A.
Speaker 4: You said, yeah, the Societist Rosie Crucian and Angli it
Speaker 4: means the Society of Rosie Crucians in England, and so
Speaker 4: so we in the States we have the SRI CF,
Speaker 4: which is a different Latin acronym. But I belong to
Speaker 4: the SRI A. And I actually belonged to Metropolitan College,
Speaker 4: which is the college all three founders of the Hermitic
Speaker 4: Order at the Golden Dawn came out of. So that
Speaker 4: that is a real honor. And I say this not
Speaker 4: to kind of pat myself on the back, because I
Speaker 4: had very little to do with that, but more so
Speaker 4: it would be like I have a foot in in
Speaker 4: English masonry, particularly I've just joined another lodge there and
Speaker 4: I'm waiting for approval. But it's masonry over there is
Speaker 4: it's it's I'll put it this way. I go to
Speaker 4: London every year. I'll be back this year. It is
Speaker 4: a great town. I think to be a mason, not
Speaker 4: because people are so accepting because they're kind of not
Speaker 4: h but the fraternity is extremely strong there and they
Speaker 4: have and I'm staying in London, they have you know,
Speaker 4: the base of operations there at Freemasons Hall. There's a
Speaker 4: research library. I mean, I haven't ever gone into that
Speaker 4: building and not run into somebody that I knew from
Speaker 4: like zoom or from YouTube or something. So it's a
Speaker 4: major hub of activity where notable Freemasons like living, notable
Speaker 4: Freemasons hangout and have coffee, have beer, do riginal whatever
Speaker 4: it is. It's it is absolutely one hundred and ten
Speaker 4: thousand percent not at all satanic at all whatsoever. It's
Speaker 4: not not demonic in any way, shape or form, because
Speaker 4: I think, first of all, that shit is silly. Second
Speaker 4: of all, I am I am a Christian, so like
Speaker 4: I'm not going to why the fuck would I do
Speaker 4: anything demonic? Right, It's just I'm not interested in it.
Speaker 4: But now you go to France and they have a
Speaker 4: different sort of thing because they broke a few of
Speaker 4: those rules, you know, the sort of the the keystones
Speaker 4: of Freemasonry. I forget what they're called. There's a specific
Speaker 4: name for them, but it's escaping me right now because
Speaker 4: it's late. They ended up you could be an atheist, uh,
Speaker 4: and you and they began recognizing and accepting women in
Speaker 4: the Masonic fraternity. We have. There is co masonry in
Speaker 4: the United States, and it depends, you know, whether or
Speaker 4: not a Grand Lodge is going to recognize that. But
Speaker 4: co masonry is obviously, you know, female oriented or co
Speaker 4: ed oriented freemasonry, to varying degrees of acceptance. But in France, France,
Speaker 4: they kind of just did away with a lot of
Speaker 4: the stuff, so they split into two Grand lodges, and
Speaker 4: so yeah, I mean it's that they're the two big ones.
Speaker 4: I would say, Uh, but there's there's stuff I don't
Speaker 4: even know about because there's for a little conversation going
Speaker 4: on in Germany and stuff like that. I think is
Speaker 4: a really really big with the Scottish right. But of
Speaker 4: course their Scottish right is not our Scottish Rights's completely different.
Speaker 3: Very different, right.
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Okay, So how long have you been a brother of
Speaker 3: the Masonic Order?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 4: Coming up on my sixth year.
Speaker 3: I believe.
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, if you travel to London, like you said,
Speaker 2: yearly four, is it the Masonic Grand Meeting?
Speaker 4: Uh? No, I go because I love to travel, and
Speaker 4: I get invited to speak and do presentations at bookstores
Speaker 4: on on. You know, I'm averaging a book a year,
Speaker 4: so I basically the second half of every year for
Speaker 4: me is dedicated to touring and talking about my book.
Speaker 4: But London is a town I really really love because
Speaker 4: I've always just had an affinity for their history. I mean,
Speaker 4: I remember being thirteen years old and reading Robert Lewis Stevenson,
Speaker 4: you know, Doctor Jekyl, mister Iden. Just the cobblestone streets,
Speaker 4: the cloak and dagger, aestetic. It's just incredible to walk
Speaker 4: around there. You know, things in some quarters of London
Speaker 4: they look like, you know, not not too far of
Speaker 4: a departure from what they may have looked like in
Speaker 4: the nineteenth century, but certainly the people are different, right,
Speaker 4: modern people. But yeah, so I'll go there. I do
Speaker 4: research too, at the British Museum, the British Library. I
Speaker 4: got my researcher card and everything and and and at
Speaker 4: cool Yeah, the the United Freemasons Hall has a research
Speaker 4: library that I've I love spending time in. You got
Speaker 4: booked at.
Speaker 5: I would love to go there and read. I'm a reader.
Speaker 5: I'm a researcher. So I would just that's that would
Speaker 5: be so awesome to be able to get that and
Speaker 5: go read.
Speaker 4: London is one of the best cities in the world
Speaker 4: to be a scholar or a historian because they effectively,
Speaker 4: the British took everyone else's fucking history and it's it's
Speaker 4: all there for you to peruse. You know, it's all there,
Speaker 4: it's your fingertips. They don't they don't put a very
Speaker 4: thick barrier between people who want to research this stuff
Speaker 4: and actually getting it done.
Speaker 5: So I have a question, So you belong to all
Speaker 5: these different groups, do they like, is there any interference
Speaker 5: because you belong to different things? Because I mean, wouldn't
Speaker 5: they do they conflict of interests? Do they like counteract
Speaker 5: each other? I mean, because it seems like they might
Speaker 5: be all inherently kind of a line but also believing
Speaker 5: in different things. And if it's like if you're Christian
Speaker 5: and esoteric, like I just can't even break it down
Speaker 5: a little bit more for me because I just want
Speaker 5: to kind of understand because there's so many different components
Speaker 5: to each one.
Speaker 4: Sure, I'll start with the organizations. I'm a part of,
Speaker 4: the Golden Dawn, the Martinist Order and every other thing
Speaker 4: that I'm a part of is derivative of Freemasonry. It
Speaker 4: all comes out of Freemasonry, and it is commenting on
Speaker 4: free Masonic symbolism and ritual. So a lot of people
Speaker 4: don't understand that, Like the Golden Dawn is if you're
Speaker 4: if you do Golden Down ritual, you're basically doing free
Speaker 4: Masonic ritual with a lot of bells and whistles on it.
Speaker 3: Break down what ritual?
Speaker 5: Yeah, like any because I don't because I don't. Honestly,
Speaker 5: I don't know any of them. So like that's I'm
Speaker 5: pretty ignorant to that in and of itself. I've heard
Speaker 5: of it from people talking about it, Like we talked
Speaker 5: to one person. They kind of like broke down some
Speaker 5: of it. To be honest, I don't know a bunch.
Speaker 5: So for those of us that are really.
Speaker 2: Golden Dawn is also acknowledging Tubulcane to be an important figure.
Speaker 4: No, it's it's it's it's not that they acknowledge or
Speaker 4: don't acknowledge Tubulcane. You know, these are all pedagogical or
Speaker 4: symbolic you know, sort of teachings that they that they
Speaker 4: all have, but but I'll put it this way. It's
Speaker 4: difficult to in order to wrap your head around this stuff.
Speaker 4: You cannot approach it with your exoteric mind. You will
Speaker 4: never understand the esoteric with your exoteric perspective. It's not possible.
Speaker 4: It's not possible, I promise you. Okay, I've spent twenty
Speaker 4: over twenty coming up my twenty second year of doing
Speaker 4: this in one form or another. Okay, very seriously, and
Speaker 4: at a certain point you realize the perceptual filters that
Speaker 4: have been installed in modern people completely fuck us when
Speaker 4: we're trying to look back and understand what the past
Speaker 4: was like. The actual things that we have installed in
Speaker 4: us into our mental framework as a product of our civilization,
Speaker 4: as a product of our institutional you know, our educational institutions,
Speaker 4: as a product of even the type of speech and
Speaker 4: the type of media we consume. It is preventing us
Speaker 4: from understanding these things. I don't know if that's by design.
Speaker 4: I tend to think at some point it's it's it's
Speaker 4: it's used as a nice leverage. But the key thing
Speaker 4: is that I'll answer your question. Raven ritual is based
Speaker 4: on a formula. A lot of people don't understand its
Speaker 4: particularly Masonic ritual. It is the it is the process
Speaker 4: of going from darkness to light. And this darkness, this
Speaker 4: darkness is a darkness of the outer world. We call
Speaker 4: it the profane world. But this word in Latin profianum
Speaker 4: just means outside of the temple. The it's we're going
Speaker 4: from uninitiated life where we don't have the light. What
Speaker 4: is the light? The light is effectively both the substance
Speaker 4: and nature of the divine. Okay, say if you if
Speaker 4: you boil it down from the corpus or medicum, you
Speaker 4: can you can basically distill it down to this, God
Speaker 4: is one. His substance is light. Okay. So this preoccu
Speaker 4: patient with light. It's not just about this rote memorization
Speaker 4: and this learning of philosophy. It's literally coming into touch
Speaker 4: in some way, shape or form with divinity.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: And so in this, in this way we always you know,
Speaker 4: you're let around the the ritual as like parts of
Speaker 4: the Old Testament, part of the Psalms are are recited,
Speaker 4: parts of the Bible are recited. You know, as you
Speaker 4: you move around in Masonic ritual and you're introduced at
Speaker 4: at at the various stations and what you realize is
Speaker 4: that there's there's only stations in the east, south, and west,
Speaker 4: and you're moving clockwise, constantly clockwise. Okay, So that's a
Speaker 4: big part of the formula. Why because all this stuff
Speaker 4: was formed in the northern hemisphere, and the Sun is
Speaker 4: always in the southern sky in that in the northern hemisphere,
Speaker 4: it never goes into the north. So you have these
Speaker 4: three officers representing sunrise, afternoon or mid heaven uh uh,
Speaker 4: and and sunset, and you are going around from the
Speaker 4: from the west to the east, by the north, from
Speaker 4: from the east to the west by the south. What
Speaker 4: does that make You're being trained to move like the sun?
Speaker 4: Why in the sun not because we worship a sun god,
Speaker 4: but because this is our terrestrial, our our physical analog
Speaker 4: of that spiritual light. So the Freemasonry and the Golden
Speaker 4: Dawn and are primarily what we call solar orders. This
Speaker 4: is the whole death and rebirth things. To say, the
Speaker 4: Sun dies in the west and is reborn in the east.
Speaker 4: But it also it also dies in winter and is
Speaker 4: born in spring. Okay. So there's there's all of that
Speaker 4: allegory going on. It's all pointing really towards a single thing,
Speaker 4: which is the immortality of the soul.
Speaker 5: Okay, So do you go around the equinoxes too, like
Speaker 5: you guys kind of do like specific rituals around like
Speaker 5: a certain times year. Do you do them with every level?
Speaker 5: I mean, I know that you do them with every
Speaker 5: level up you go.
Speaker 4: The Golden Lawn has equinox rituals specifically, but they're what
Speaker 4: they do is is they sort of they set the
Speaker 4: individual Golden Dawn temple in abeyance temporarily and then reconstitute it.
Speaker 4: So it's like taking everything down just to rebuild it,
Speaker 4: particularly on the equinoxes, because that's the that's the only
Speaker 4: time in the year where you have equal amounts of
Speaker 4: light and dark. Okay. That that's why we do it
Speaker 4: on the equinoxes because it's balanced. It is it's the
Speaker 4: only time of the year where there is balance. Uh So,
Speaker 4: it's it's a lot of that. It's a lot about
Speaker 4: learning about spiritual truths and then how to be in
Speaker 4: the world from looking at frankly, you know, the solar
Speaker 4: movements and the lunar movements and what nature is doing. Honestly,
Speaker 4: so I don't I don't know if that answers a
Speaker 4: lot of your questions. But it's I mean, this is
Speaker 4: we're now we're getting into you know, like five hundred
Speaker 4: years of history at this point, so a lot. That's
Speaker 4: a lot of ground.
Speaker 5: I like history. So I mean, it's it's I like
Speaker 5: to understand it because I mean all I've really, I mean,
Speaker 5: I've heard what I think everybody else has heard. When
Speaker 5: we talk about like specific orders and especially freemasons and
Speaker 5: stuff like we just did an episode on it, is like,
Speaker 5: you know, a lot of people discuss it and think
Speaker 5: that it's just inherently it wasn't started out as evil
Speaker 5: or you know, satanic, but then it got twisted with
Speaker 5: Pike and then turn into something else, whatever it is,
Speaker 5: and then people talk about the thirty third and then
Speaker 5: you know, this is it potentially you know, they're doing
Speaker 5: left handed magic or they're like, you know, doing evil
Speaker 5: ritualistic practices, and you're you've been around the world and
Speaker 5: you've seen all these things, but you've never actually experienced
Speaker 5: any people doing of these things. So you know, is
Speaker 5: that is that just something that people just kind of
Speaker 5: a conspiracy that people made up and that's just been
Speaker 5: running rampant for a long time.
Speaker 4: The thing is that you always fear what you don't
Speaker 4: understand or what you're excluded, what you're excluded from, and
Speaker 4: we need a scapegoat, we just do. People can't exist
Speaker 4: in that area of total autonomy, which says, come, what
Speaker 4: may the responsibilities on me? Especially now, we live in
Speaker 4: a society of victim culture, and it's every everybody, everybody
Speaker 4: is everybody is pointing towards some sort of fucking ghost,
Speaker 4: somebody in the shadows to blame. But at the end
Speaker 4: of the day, a society, a civilization is the sum
Speaker 4: of its people. And so our best bet is to
Speaker 4: look at ourselves, revolutionize, start the revolution within. This is
Speaker 4: the purpose of initiation is to begin to begin. This
Speaker 4: is what initiate means, right, to begin to get started
Speaker 4: in this this revolution of the self. And yeah, it's
Speaker 4: the thing is people also don't understand, particularly the United States,
Speaker 4: and like we're not. There's no one grand you know,
Speaker 4: Masonic uh sort of lodge that that governs everybody, tells
Speaker 4: everybody what they can and cannot do. So when you
Speaker 4: see instances, right, remember I said the lodges are the people, Okay,
Speaker 4: when you see instances of lodges engaging in corruption, and
Speaker 4: engaging in, you know, a nefarious activity. What they're not
Speaker 4: understanding is that like that, we cast them the fuck
Speaker 4: out as soon as we figure that out. And the
Speaker 4: same the same thing that you know, I use this
Speaker 4: analogy with the Scottish Rite, with whatever. If you have
Speaker 4: let's just say, right, you have a part of your
Speaker 4: family that is kind of they're kind of like little wacky,
Speaker 4: a little crazy, and uh, you have I don't know
Speaker 4: friends come over or you you've got your your new partner,
Speaker 4: your new spouse at Thanksgiving and these fools over here
Speaker 4: are acting up. You understand how that reflects on you.
Speaker 4: At the same time, you also understand that that's not me,
Speaker 4: you know, that's these people over here. So it's just
Speaker 4: it's a very similar thing. Just to personalize it for people.
Speaker 4: It's a very similar thing with freemasonry. It's not this
Speaker 4: thing where you know, I mean, most of what we're
Speaker 4: doing is praying, and literally like blood blood drives. I
Speaker 4: mean we probably pray at an average meeting and we
Speaker 4: pray to God, the creator of the universe.
Speaker 2: Okay, real question, Grand Architect or God, the same person.
Speaker 2: But a lot of Masons that may not be of
Speaker 2: your uh sect, of spirituality might call it something.
Speaker 4: Else exactly, which which is why we reduce it to
Speaker 4: the great, great, great architect of the universe in freemasonrym
Speaker 4: because it's it's it's not prioritizing one word for that
Speaker 4: that that creative intelligence over another. It's it's something that's
Speaker 4: quintessentially quintessentially Masonic. However, it's really derivative of from the
Speaker 4: Platonic tradition. The Platonic dialogues are really the first time
Speaker 4: we see on the historical record, and depending you know,
Speaker 4: you also see it in in the Old Testament. But
Speaker 4: the dating of the Old Testament is is so it's
Speaker 4: such a hairy thing, particularly for scholarsh scholarship, that we
Speaker 4: we don't really know. There's no there's no hard consensus
Speaker 4: on how old the Old Testament is.
Speaker 2: Well, that's not a Masonic thing, that's a that's a
Speaker 2: normal person thing as well. To say that you know
Speaker 2: what happened in three thousand BC, bro, we have no
Speaker 2: way of fucking quantifying that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly exactly. And it's it's all based on on
Speaker 4: these kind of older is better and we want our
Speaker 4: things to be really old and whatever. The truth is
Speaker 4: always somewhere in the middle. Right, sure, but we see
Speaker 4: really God as an architect for the for the first
Speaker 4: for the first time in a Platonic dialogue called the
Speaker 4: time Ass, which I believe was is thought to have
Speaker 4: been written around three hundred and sixty somewhere around three
Speaker 4: hundred and sixty BCE, and effectively Plato through the chief interlocutor,
Speaker 4: who in this particular dialogue is not Socrates, which is
Speaker 4: is not the usual thing. It's this Pythagorean philosopher time Ass.
Speaker 4: He's talking about the nature of the universe as mathematics,
Speaker 4: because this is the way the mind of God works. Right.
Speaker 4: Plato is famous for saying God can continually geometrizes. Not
Speaker 4: only that, but legendarily, over the gate to his academy
Speaker 4: there was there an inscription that said, let no man
Speaker 4: ignorant of geometry enter into year. Now, what would a mason, right,
Speaker 4: what would an operative mason need to know above anything else? Geometry?
Speaker 3: Sure? Sure, so these two.
Speaker 4: These two things are so intimately connected that I actually
Speaker 4: go around the world giving UH talks. I give a
Speaker 4: talk called UH Platonism and Freemasonry.
Speaker 2: Okay, I personally have such an issue with Pythagoreas for
Speaker 2: so many reasons.
Speaker 3: For one, he didn't come up with no theorem.
Speaker 2: There are Samerian texts that obviously will show that the
Speaker 2: entire lineage of how the triangle we all can can
Speaker 2: dictate the Piagoras theorem right of how a square plus
Speaker 2: b squad equals c squared.
Speaker 3: He didn't come up with that shit that was.
Speaker 4: Ritten, But he never he never claimed to.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no no. At that point.
Speaker 2: The issue I have with him not only did he
Speaker 2: take credit for things and and maybe he didn't.
Speaker 4: He didn't though, because he never wrote anything so anything.
Speaker 4: All these things were attributed to him by people that
Speaker 4: were writing three hundred years after he died.
Speaker 3: And that's fair.
Speaker 2: That is absolutely adequate and fair, and I'm with you
Speaker 2: on this. However, his numbers cult, his math cult, he
Speaker 2: still forced people to be silent for at least a
Speaker 2: year before admittance, this sexual weirdness that they would do
Speaker 2: before they even learned how to do a basic equilater
Speaker 2: or triangle math. It just he himself was a bit
Speaker 2: of a fucking psychopath.
Speaker 4: But what she what she got to realize too, is
Speaker 4: that he didn't force anybody to do anything because this
Speaker 4: was all voluntary.
Speaker 2: Oh sure, for a year and give away all your
Speaker 2: worldly possessions and uh negate your family lineage in favor
Speaker 2: of the numbers cult. Yeah, willingly do so. That doesn't
Speaker 2: make it like more okay personally, but I hear your point.
Speaker 3: Personally.
Speaker 2: I think Pythagris is a bit of a psychopath, but
Speaker 2: so are most cult leaders. And I don't just mean
Speaker 2: that to the cult of what we think about today.
Speaker 2: Even the cults of ancient Greece. The cult leaders, even
Speaker 2: the cult of Dionysius, the cult of Zeus, the cult
Speaker 2: of whatever. They were looking psychos, but they were very charismatic.
Speaker 4: They could draw what what what? What criteria are you
Speaker 4: using to judge their their to diagnose their psychology. It
Speaker 4: seems it seems a little retrofitted and a little outlandish
Speaker 4: for somebody to to look back and paint all of
Speaker 4: like history's holy people with the with the brush of insanity,
Speaker 4: when really, really you you were just talking about how
Speaker 4: Noah's flood cannot be verified because they because they happen
Speaker 4: three theft. We don't have any way of verifying any
Speaker 4: of the stuff that you're saying right now. I'm very
Speaker 4: I'm very, very very very intimately tied into you know, uh,
Speaker 4: particularly Pythagorean, Platonic and Hermetic history. And I work with
Speaker 4: scholars I sit on an academic board with about their
Speaker 4: hondograft from the University of Amsterdam, Charlie Stang, who runs
Speaker 4: the center, the Harvard Center for the Study of World Religions.
Speaker 4: So these scholars also are my friends, and I'm leaning
Speaker 4: on them for this stuff. And uh, you know, much
Speaker 4: of what the problem is that we we as modern people,
Speaker 4: are consuming tertiary and quaternary like sources so far removed
Speaker 4: from the actual text. Have you ever read a pithet?
Speaker 4: Have you ever read a Pythagony in text? Truly Pythagorea
Speaker 4: in text?
Speaker 2: Have I personally yes, yeah, most people which will say no,
Speaker 2: which one.
Speaker 3: I'd be lying if I was to give you some
Speaker 3: sort of a title of them. But I specifically because.
Speaker 2: And the reason why I dug into Pythagoras in and
Speaker 2: of himself is because so many people we like, we said,
Speaker 2: we talked about the Pythagoron theorem so much in high school.
Speaker 2: We don't know how to do our tax but we
Speaker 2: can tell you about some fucking a square plus b
Speaker 2: squared right. So like I was curious whenever I found
Speaker 2: out that pythagore and himself led a number's cults, and
Speaker 2: I was like, well, here's the thing.
Speaker 4: Here's the thing though, and again this is the misinterpretation.
Speaker 4: There are two phases in Pythagorean history. There's the authentic
Speaker 4: Pythagorean UH group, and then there is the neo Pythagora.
Speaker 4: For sure who who was writing in UH probably around
Speaker 4: the first, second, and third, all the way up to
Speaker 4: the fifth and centuries of the Common era. And in
Speaker 4: between these there's a little bit of a gap in
Speaker 4: in the the the communication. Now you look at you know,
Speaker 4: the earliest Pythagoreans, Pythagoras himself wrote nothing, but he he
Speaker 4: he had several students that that wrote and their preoccupation
Speaker 4: had nothing to do with numbers. As a matter of fact,
Speaker 4: doctor Justin Sledge from the Esoterica channel, I.
Speaker 2: Know it's actually brother, doctor Justin Sledge. I'm such a
Speaker 2: fucking fan of his content, just so we're clear.
Speaker 4: So he so he goes into this about how there
Speaker 4: is actually no evidence to suggest that Pythagoras gave even
Speaker 4: the tiniest fuck about numbers.
Speaker 2: So this point also it had nothing to do with triangles,
Speaker 2: in nothing to do with numbers. What it was was
Speaker 2: occult to personality, and he wanted to be at the
Speaker 2: head of it. It's specifically a couple of rules, right
Speaker 2: strict vegetarian diets, like you cannot touch meat.
Speaker 3: Okay, fine, fine again.
Speaker 4: Again, I gotta correct you on that. It depends on
Speaker 4: which which. So we get the bulk of our of
Speaker 4: our of our information from a couple of sources. Diogenes Laertius,
Speaker 4: who writes about the Philosopher's a little bit of Plutarch.
Speaker 4: But the main two biographies that you have in the
Speaker 4: Pythagorea and Library are Porphyry's Life of Pythagris and the
Speaker 4: Amlicus's Life of Pythagres. And the Amlicus specifically says, of
Speaker 4: all the flesh of which it was lawful to sacrifice,
Speaker 4: they partook. This makes more sense than anything else because
Speaker 4: these people were extremely, extremely religious and to to when
Speaker 4: you made an offering to a god in ancient Greece,
Speaker 4: what you would do is everybody would eat and then
Speaker 4: you take you take like the thigh bone of the
Speaker 4: of the the cattle. Whatever you're eating, you would wrap
Speaker 4: the fat around it and chart the fat and the
Speaker 4: smoke would go up and with your prayers to the God,
Speaker 4: so on and so forth. But it would be it
Speaker 4: would have been considered impos Are we sure, we're one
Speaker 4: hundred percent sure about the reason.
Speaker 2: Why I'm asking is because there was And granted we're
Speaker 2: talking about mystery cult versus mystery.
Speaker 3: Cult here, take away Christianity for two seconds.
Speaker 2: We're talking quite a few centuries before the Christians came
Speaker 2: on scene, right, And you would have a statue made
Speaker 2: to name your deity doesn't matter for this principle, but
Speaker 2: a deity. You would have their mystery cult make offerings
Speaker 2: to them on their altar, and it would be a
Speaker 2: meat and whatever else. They would leave it there to rot,
Speaker 2: and they would send their lower level guys to come
Speaker 2: at like one in the morning, two in the morning
Speaker 2: to come take the meat away before it got to rotten.
Speaker 2: They wouldn't eat their sacrifices to the God. They would
Speaker 2: offer to the God itself and let it oxidize there
Speaker 2: in the middle of the street for everybody until it's
Speaker 2: stunk to high heavens.
Speaker 4: So in the in the main, the larger cults cults
Speaker 4: to Zeus so on and so forth, and particular, I mean,
Speaker 4: we have these writings in Hessiad, we have them in Homer,
Speaker 4: we have them in Avid, we have them in Virgil. Uh,
Speaker 4: we've got tons of attestations of this particular feast happening. Now,
Speaker 4: if it was a if it was a closed uh
Speaker 4: sort of what we call hieratic, if it was a
Speaker 4: hieratic operation, meaning closed only to the priests, then they
Speaker 4: would come and the priests would partake of some uh.
Speaker 4: Now again you you can, you can, you can look
Speaker 4: at for instance, the table of Showbread and the Tabernacle
Speaker 4: and the tumble of Solomon, where yes, they would leave
Speaker 4: it out for a night, but they go back and
Speaker 4: they would they would eat the bread because effectively, to
Speaker 4: to to to face this stuff and throw it away
Speaker 4: was in its entirety was sort of like unthinkable, especially
Speaker 4: those cultures back then that did they didn't really have
Speaker 4: the same food stores that we did. But in the
Speaker 4: in the in the public, in the public uh sort
Speaker 4: of rituals that that we do have, the the entire
Speaker 4: community would partake in these feasts, and it would have
Speaker 4: been considered impious, uh met. And you guys know what
Speaker 4: that word means. Uh, to to not partake. So they
Speaker 4: they're there.
Speaker 5: They were.
Speaker 4: They were what we would consider by a modern standard.
Speaker 4: They were fundamentalists. Uh, but that that that extended to it.
Speaker 4: They that extended to religion as well, the overarching religion
Speaker 4: of their day. They participated in that religion, and they
Speaker 4: were actually not ostracized from it.
Speaker 2: Okay, so aside from the vegetarian thing, which multiple sorts.
Speaker 5: Because I was gonna say, I was like, I've just
Speaker 5: looked up like seven different sources and they all said
Speaker 5: the same thing. Yes, I'm scanning through right now, and
Speaker 5: I'm like, well, I mean, to be fair, there is
Speaker 5: a lot of literature that is incorrect. But just at
Speaker 5: the top, it's it is saying that, it is talking
Speaker 5: about that over and over and over again.
Speaker 4: So I'm this this this is it's it's a common
Speaker 4: thing that was that was suggested by somebody like Porphyry,
Speaker 4: who was very, very against the eating of animal meat.
Speaker 4: But what you gotta understand is that even in the
Speaker 4: source materials, the source materials don't agree with each other.
Speaker 4: So you have an instance of Iamblicus, who's, you know,
Speaker 4: a great theorogist. He writes it in his in uh,
Speaker 4: if you could probably do a word search. Uh, if
Speaker 4: you have a pd PDF version of it. But he says,
Speaker 4: of all the of all the flesh of which it
Speaker 4: was lawful to satirify. So my whole thing is that
Speaker 4: it and this is how it works in academia, in scholarship.
Speaker 4: If the primary sources don't agree, then there is no consensus.
Speaker 2: I'm with you, But there are things that are of
Speaker 2: a consensus when it comes to Pythagoris himself. For instance, okay, fine,
Speaker 2: the vegetarian conversation.
Speaker 3: I'm with you.
Speaker 2: But they also were very strict about nobody can eat
Speaker 2: beans or legomes. That was also a big thing, and
Speaker 2: then also a silence for five years before you could
Speaker 2: ever learn the first mathematical equation to be a part
Speaker 2: of the call to Pythagoras. I'm sorry outside looking in,
Speaker 2: and i know I'm very biased on this. This sounds
Speaker 2: like the worst of a fucking cult. Five years of silence.
Speaker 3: Bro bro Well, I mean.
Speaker 4: You're yeah, but you're you're you're a podcaster. You have
Speaker 4: a microphone in front of you. Of course it's gonna
Speaker 4: suck to you. Fair Like, why why would this guy,
Speaker 4: why would that group of people be asked to run
Speaker 4: the government of Crotona if there wasn't something redeemable about
Speaker 4: their ideas. I mean to again, to us, we think
Speaker 4: it is unthinkable. But again, you also have monks that
Speaker 4: take vows of silence for their for their entire lives. Uh. Now,
Speaker 4: we could definitely say, hey, you know, those guys are crazy.
Speaker 3: The Buddhist monks are fucking crazy. For the record, I
Speaker 3: agree with that, But anyway.
Speaker 4: I would say, I would say, yeah, we modern people
Speaker 4: balk against that level of restriction on on self expression,
Speaker 4: and that we also balk against other people telling us
Speaker 4: what to do or staunch individualists, you know. As a consequence,
Speaker 4: I think that that on either side of the fence.
Speaker 4: I obviously am not a monk. I obviously am a
Speaker 4: podcaster or I talk about this stuff. I obviously have
Speaker 4: not taken vows of silence. But I do think that
Speaker 4: the pendulum can can swing too far to either extreme. Sure,
Speaker 4: Like now, it's like what that what that like radical
Speaker 4: individualism does is it completely desacralizes everything about our world,
Speaker 4: and it abstracts us from from the an ancient worldview,
Speaker 4: which was much more in tune with you know, not
Speaker 4: just nature, but just the overarching cycles of things. So
Speaker 4: I tend to try and find that middle, and especially
Speaker 4: as somebody who is immersed immersed in the scholarship, I
Speaker 4: try and exercise a level of epistemological humility, which is
Speaker 4: to say, it doesn't matter, It does not matter what
Speaker 4: Google says about about what they're telling you about. By that,
Speaker 4: I have the fucking Greek over there, and I can
Speaker 4: pull it off my shelf say look there there's deviation
Speaker 4: in the primary sources. This isn't some guy writing in
Speaker 4: the seventies. Isn't somebody writing in the thirties. This is
Speaker 4: a neo Pythagorean writing in the second and third centuries
Speaker 4: of this era. So and he's this is what he's
Speaker 4: telling us. So when you approach when you approach things
Speaker 4: from the scholarly level, you have to say, okay, there's
Speaker 4: a lot of evidence here to suggest that they ate
Speaker 4: mostly vegetarian, absolutely, but there's this reference here to say
Speaker 4: they ate at sacrifices, they partook them of the meat.
Speaker 4: So it's I always try and straddle that line. And
Speaker 4: the problem, the problem that I come up with again
Speaker 4: over and over is that when you bring this stuff
Speaker 4: to the mainstream there's nothing but extremes.
Speaker 3: Sure, people have.
Speaker 4: Extreme opinions, they have extreme blame. But the thing is
Speaker 4: like they don't really know what.
Speaker 3: They don't know, you know, a very fair point.
Speaker 5: I did see, I did see a contradiction. Actually, I'm
Speaker 5: reading through a scholarly thing. It took me a good
Speaker 5: bit to find this one. But this says that while
Speaker 5: there is abstinence, the abstinence of meat was ideal. Historical
Speaker 5: records indicate the system was flexible, that some reports suggesting
Speaker 5: that later generations permitted moderate consumption of meat during rituals.
Speaker 5: He himself reportedly advised athletes to eat meat for strength.
Speaker 4: So yeah, that was a.
Speaker 3: Good bit down.
Speaker 5: It talked about the ethics of it, and talked about
Speaker 5: flesh and the argument of it. It talked about the
Speaker 5: reincarnation of it. And then in the very bottom it
Speaker 5: said the little tiny paragraph.
Speaker 4: So well, and see, that's the beautiful thing about a
Speaker 4: moment like this where you realize, like just how deep
Speaker 4: you gotta like shovel through the dog shit on something
Speaker 4: that you know a lot of us use. I use
Speaker 4: Google too, you know there's different versions, right, there's Google
Speaker 4: for scholars. A lot of people don't know about that, But.
Speaker 5: I love Google for scholars. I've been using that for decades.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's it's fantastic, it's it's wonderful. But even still,
Speaker 4: you know, there is when you enter this stuff on
Speaker 4: it at the real level, and I'll never forget it.
Speaker 4: You know, I was just kind of an esotericis interested
Speaker 4: in the history of this stuff. I was, you know,
Speaker 4: I would say, naturally gifted at certain things. I start
Speaker 4: going to these conferences, I start organizing these conferences, and
Speaker 4: so that you know they're here in the States, they're
Speaker 4: overseas in Egypt. And I got up to give a
Speaker 4: presentation and I'm presenting with scholars from all over the
Speaker 4: world at the highest level of scholarship. And the first
Speaker 4: thing that I like, the first thing I realized, was like,
Speaker 4: oh my god, I feel like I'm naked because my
Speaker 4: my game compared to these people, my understanding of the
Speaker 4: field in its totality. Right, there's certain things you got
Speaker 4: to know about methodology, how to find, how to get
Speaker 4: to which sources should I be looking at, what can
Speaker 4: what can go wrong with translation? You gotta be really
Speaker 4: careful which translations you use, especially in the Greek. You
Speaker 4: could you could be looking at two different translators. This
Speaker 4: is especially true for Plato and reading the same same
Speaker 4: dialogue and it's it's it reads completely differently. But I
Speaker 4: remember right then and there feeling very embarrassed and being like, okay,
Speaker 4: I got to step my game up, and and when
Speaker 4: I did, I realized, I'm like, you know, there is
Speaker 4: no consensus on anything, which.
Speaker 5: Is kind of everything is everything is consistently an argument
Speaker 5: with every single There's a lot of historical things that
Speaker 5: people and genuinely agree on, but when it comes down
Speaker 5: to the details, that's when people start to argue about
Speaker 5: specifically almost everything. And being in the field that I
Speaker 5: was in, I've read a lot of scholarly research and
Speaker 5: it's in constantly back and forth and back and forth.
Speaker 5: Even presenting on this podcast, I try to at least
Speaker 5: give information of like, hey, this is what I believe
Speaker 5: or this is what I'm finding as the main hub,
Speaker 5: but these are also what I'm hearing about as well,
Speaker 5: because it comes with most research is that you will
Speaker 5: have a large body agree with one text, and then
Speaker 5: you'll have somebody else that may find somebody that has
Speaker 5: a different special dialect that can translate it differently. Then
Speaker 5: in those one or two words change the entire meeting
Speaker 5: of the text that you're reading, and then that causes
Speaker 5: a lot of scholarly debate between all of the historians
Speaker 5: and stuff, and so it's it's quite challenging, especially when
Speaker 5: you bring in language into it, because then it causes
Speaker 5: a lot of conflict because there's a lot of languages
Speaker 5: in the dialect specifically that has changed over time, and
Speaker 5: we're trying to recurate what it is, and nobody's really
Speaker 5: speaking those specific dialects any longer, so then you're trying
Speaker 5: to figure out exactly one word differences of what it
Speaker 5: could or couldn't be.
Speaker 4: So sure, yeah, and language wasn't Yeah, As to your point,
Speaker 4: the dialect, their language was not systematized the way what
Speaker 4: it is today. There's variations in spelling and declension and
Speaker 4: all that crazy shit. But one of the greatest examples
Speaker 4: of this is in the Platonic dialogues when some translators
Speaker 4: choose to translate the word damon, which is diemonium is
Speaker 4: the actual tense of it version, but it's they'll some
Speaker 4: people will translate it as conscience, but that word really
Speaker 4: means spirit, and so a lot of people, a lot
Speaker 4: of people will will go around never knowing that. Throughout
Speaker 4: the Platonic Dialogues, Socrates keeps stuff, opping to check in
Speaker 4: and speak with and speak about this spirit that is
Speaker 4: with him, that is telling him what not to do
Speaker 4: or or when when not to do things. Uh, it's
Speaker 4: very clear from the if from the Greek. I also
Speaker 4: happen to be ethnically Greek, so I can I can
Speaker 4: read and speak it. But of course this is ancient Greek.
Speaker 3: It's not.
Speaker 4: Yeah, kkni and and some attic. There's some stuff an
Speaker 4: addict too, but but mostly kini yah and uh. You know,
Speaker 4: it's a abundantly clear looking at the the the the
Speaker 4: Greek text. But you know, again, like to your point,
Speaker 4: the translators will will sort of gloss on these things.
Speaker 4: And and I think they felt called to modernize it
Speaker 4: for the readers of their time. But in doing that
Speaker 4: they they didn't meet the text on its own terms,
Speaker 4: and they did it in an injustice. This is the
Speaker 4: hardest thing is meeting this stuff on its own terms.
Speaker 4: We come to all this stuff with a lot of
Speaker 4: bag okay.
Speaker 5: A lot of biases too.
Speaker 3: There's a lot to be said there, there really really is.
Speaker 2: And with that to kind of get off the Pythagorea
Speaker 2: conversation and get back to the Freemasonry conversation. I have
Speaker 2: to ask you, right, So you, as you said, are
Speaker 2: not a fan of Pike.
Speaker 3: Right, you're not a big proponent of Pike.
Speaker 2: Now Morals and Dogma, which is allegedly outside looking in completely,
Speaker 2: and I'll acknowledge that this is the way that the
Speaker 2: ceremonies and the rituals go from ranked to rank of
Speaker 2: the Scottish Rite. And some would argue the York right
Speaker 2: and all these things. He basically took what was at
Speaker 2: the time forty five hundred different levels and fifty two
Speaker 2: different rights and combine them into what we would now
Speaker 2: call the organization of the Free and Accepted Masons. Now
Speaker 2: that being said, Uberpike obviously had a little bit of
Speaker 2: some biases. He wasn't exactly a good do dude, right,
Speaker 2: And we would acknowledge that from our current modern day
Speaker 2: and age. You are saying that there are contextual differences
Speaker 2: that make or break the conversation. There are so many
Speaker 2: Masons that are still adhering to Albert Pike's conversation in
Speaker 2: his book Morals and Dogma, and still take that book
Speaker 2: to be what they would call the Masonic Bible. I
Speaker 2: know that's a misnumber. I fully understand this, but they
Speaker 2: would still take every word that this man said to
Speaker 2: be literal. What is your take on this as per
Speaker 2: the modern day Freemasons?
Speaker 4: You know, and some of my Scottish Rite brethren may maybe.
Speaker 2: A Scottish writer York right now? Also York right, York,
Speaker 2: York right? So this is the Knight's templar route.
Speaker 3: Correct? Yeah, okay, what level are you?
Speaker 4: If you don't mind me asking, I'm a night templar.
Speaker 3: You're over level twenty then? Correct?
Speaker 4: There's fourteen degrees in York in York, right.
Speaker 2: I say level two because if you were to take
Speaker 2: it to a one to one comparison of the Scottish
Speaker 2: in New York, York jumps a couple from here to there,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, you're probably talking about the Rosequah to the
Speaker 4: eighteenth degree.
Speaker 2: You understand what I'm saying here, brother, break it down
Speaker 2: for them what we're talking about.
Speaker 4: I know all the ritual, I've read it all I've
Speaker 4: I've even seen some of it performed, but it's I'm
Speaker 4: not interested because the thing, the thing that I find
Speaker 4: in Scottish Rite a lot of times is that well,
Speaker 4: first of all, it's like how much can you really do?
Speaker 4: Like I'm not a single guy.
Speaker 3: How much money? Yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 4: Not that expensive, you know, like dues are typically manageable.
Speaker 4: Otherwise the brethren vote him down, you know, because it
Speaker 4: is it's extremely democratic. But but the thing is, like
Speaker 4: I have found that Scottish Rite is like the key.
Speaker 4: This is gonna be terrible to say.
Speaker 3: Please please, please, by all means, brother, let it fucking go.
Speaker 4: And I haven't interacted with every Scottish Rite valley, but
Speaker 4: some of the people that I have interacted with with you,
Speaker 4: they're like they're they're like all they're all this hush
Speaker 4: hush in this hype about esotericism. It's like a kid
Speaker 4: that's got like the big you know this Like when
Speaker 4: I was in middle school, I'd go over to like
Speaker 4: my friend's house, and you know, his parents could afford
Speaker 4: to buy him like this massive drum kit, and meantime
Speaker 4: I had this little janky snare drum I had to
Speaker 4: work all summer to buy myself. But I could play
Speaker 4: the shit out of that thing. And this kid barely
Speaker 4: knows what he's doing behind this massive you know, Peter
Speaker 4: cris drum kit he's playing. It's kind of a similar
Speaker 4: thing where like there there's a lot of steam, there's
Speaker 4: a lot of talk about esotericism, and then when you
Speaker 4: really get into it, it's like again like you guys,
Speaker 4: there's nothing here, it's all fluff. So it's it really
Speaker 4: comes down to that. But the main thing is is
Speaker 4: that the Scottish Rite has no jurisdiction whatsoever, no jururisdiction
Speaker 4: whatsoever over any of the Grand Lodge of Craft or
Speaker 4: or Blue Lodge Freemasonry. So it's it just doesn't work
Speaker 4: that way. It's again it's kind of a side quest.
Speaker 4: It's this guy's interpretation of what freemasonry is. It's you know,
Speaker 4: it's the same thing with the Knights Templar. You know,
Speaker 4: York right is I mean the Royal Arts degree is
Speaker 4: it was considered one of the main degrees when the
Speaker 4: Grand Lodge in England formed. But but most of you know,
Speaker 4: York right is kind of this. It's this way of
Speaker 4: of of I guess bringing the the Free Masonic story,
Speaker 4: which basically ends at the Temple of Solomon for the
Speaker 4: in the in the third degree bringing it into Christianity
Speaker 4: and into chivalric uh. And a lot of this was
Speaker 4: based on this guy, Chevalier Ramsey who who made a
Speaker 4: great oration about how Freemasons were descended from the Knight
Speaker 4: Templar and like created. He was like the Dan Brown
Speaker 4: of his time.
Speaker 2: You know, to break down that one down, what is
Speaker 2: your take on that? So many people will say, Oh, well,
Speaker 2: clearly the builders of the temples and the pyramids of
Speaker 2: Egypt clearly became the Knights Templar. Clearly became the Freemasons.
Speaker 2: I specifically, and somebody who does not see the connection,
Speaker 2: I understand why people would put these together for a
Speaker 2: non fictional book, like some damn Brown shit, Like you're saying,
Speaker 2: there is little to no evidence whatsoever to say that
Speaker 2: the Knights Templar became what we would know is the
Speaker 2: Freemasons today. But it would also stand the reason that
Speaker 2: the Freemasons of today would take on some of the
Speaker 2: ideologies of the Templars of old, indoctrinate them into themselves,
Speaker 2: and then rebrand if you will.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know. A really great Masonic scholar
Speaker 4: from the the late nineteenth and early twentieth century. His
Speaker 4: name is W. L. Wilmshurst Walter Leslie Wilmshurst. I like
Speaker 4: the way he discussed it because he's writing at a
Speaker 4: time where there's this overarching trend to connect freemasonry, all
Speaker 4: esotericism to like ancient Egypt, like root it there like that,
Speaker 4: why a trail?
Speaker 3: Help me make this make sense. I've tried so hard.
Speaker 2: They try to make connections to the ancient pyramids, the
Speaker 2: Stone Hinge to the pyramids of Cambodia because obviously a
Speaker 2: fucking period in. It's like, wait, what do you mean
Speaker 2: period in? There's so much context missing here, dog.
Speaker 4: It's it's unfortunately it's a case of universalism or universalized.
Speaker 4: It's the universalizing current. They want to reduce everything down
Speaker 4: to a single sort of monosystem, you know, a single
Speaker 4: world religion. There's just exoteric and esoteric versions of it.
Speaker 4: I mean there's there's some good points there other points.
Speaker 4: It's just kind of like, wow, you're you're flying past
Speaker 4: these red flags and not even stopping a look.
Speaker 2: But I understand at least a point right to say
Speaker 2: they're able to cut stores, how are they able to
Speaker 2: cut stones of bronze ata technology?
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm with you. There's some wild shit, we can
Speaker 3: have this conversation, but to say the Pyramids of Egypt
Speaker 3: are clearly connected to Stone Hinge, are clearly connected to
Speaker 3: the Hope.
Speaker 2: Well Indian Mounds in Ohio, like because obviously, what do
Speaker 2: you mean, fucking obviously I must have missed the fucking
Speaker 2: obvious red flags here bro Well.
Speaker 4: And that's the thing, you know, and you see a
Speaker 4: lot of it in all organizations, but particularly one, particularly
Speaker 4: ones with titles and sashes and and things like that.
Speaker 4: You fall into a real trap of like, I'm a
Speaker 4: part of this special thing, and so where where this
Speaker 4: is our lineage? And and unfortunately, you know, you will
Speaker 4: find people that come to something like freemasonry kind of
Speaker 4: your point before. I don't really see too many people
Speaker 4: in it for the networking, just because on the local level,
Speaker 4: it's like, you know, it's carpenters, it's plus, it's people
Speaker 4: who stock shelves at the supermarket, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: But but that's relatively new. Right fifty years ago, you
Speaker 2: if you were somebody of note, you would have been
Speaker 2: a freemason. These days, it seems to have gotten back
Speaker 2: to the craft worked.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: By craft work, I don't mean the esotech, I mean
Speaker 2: like actual plumbers, actual carpenters, actual pipe fitters, and things
Speaker 2: like this.
Speaker 3: But the Masonic numbers have been dwindling for at least
Speaker 3: a decade now correct.
Speaker 4: Yeah, probably longer.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think it's a great I think it's a good thing.
Speaker 2: Or break this down so many people would disagree with
Speaker 2: what you just said.
Speaker 3: Break that down further, brother.
Speaker 4: No, I think it's a great thing. I think. So
Speaker 4: there's there's this period in between the First and Second
Speaker 4: World Wars, and then especially right after the Second World War. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I have this phenomenon showing up, especially in American culture,
Speaker 4: called joinerism, and it's like everybody was Rotary club, Alex clubs,
Speaker 4: the whole whole Neighborhoodwis club. Yeah yeah, yeah, whole neighborhood
Speaker 4: was a gigantic family. I think there are good things
Speaker 4: to that, but I think when it comes to Freemasonry,
Speaker 4: what it did was it allowed the ranks to be
Speaker 4: filled with people who did not understand esotericism, and they
Speaker 4: and their Christianity rubbed up against that. And even to
Speaker 4: this day, if you say the word occultism, they automatically
Speaker 4: think satanism. They hear the word cult without realizing like no,
Speaker 4: it's actually it's a Latin word meaning hidden from the eye, right,
Speaker 4: because the word for eye was oculus. So occultous is
Speaker 4: that you can't see the things that are causing this
Speaker 4: to happen, hidden virtues, hidden qualities, hidden causality. But you
Speaker 4: still see that people have a real gut reaction against
Speaker 4: any kind of esotericism to freemasonry, so they strip it
Speaker 4: out completely. But my loud ass goes around and make
Speaker 4: doing presentations to really challenge that among the brothers. Because
Speaker 4: if freemasonry is good for a single thing, I think
Speaker 4: it's good for men. But if I had to say
Speaker 4: it's good for a single thing, even more so than charity,
Speaker 4: it is a great forum for the exchange of ideas,
Speaker 4: or at least it can be. Because no one is
Speaker 4: higher than anyone else. In a free Masonic lodge. We
Speaker 4: meet on the level there. It doesn't even matter the
Speaker 4: Worshipful Master in the East. You respect his office, but
Speaker 4: he's not higher than you. So you can really talk
Speaker 4: about whatever you want.
Speaker 2: In a lot of let me ask you what you
Speaker 2: just said, not to poke holes. I'm hoping you're able
Speaker 2: to give a bit of distinction.
Speaker 3: Here.
Speaker 2: A worshipful Master in the east. You're saying that he
Speaker 2: is not higher than a brother that is going towards
Speaker 2: the east. As some might say, Oh I'm a traveler,
Speaker 2: Oh I'm heading east, or I'm a traveler heading west,
Speaker 2: meaning that I've already gotten the illumination. I'm heading back
Speaker 2: to you know, elevate my younger and lesser brothers in
Speaker 2: the way of the light.
Speaker 3: You're saying there's no hierarchy here.
Speaker 4: There's no hierarchy among master Masons, the level master Masons. Yes,
Speaker 4: at the third level there are offices in a lodge,
Speaker 4: but that doesn't make the brother like higher than me.
Speaker 2: Then break this down for me again, completely fish out
Speaker 2: of water trying to look in here. You got a
Speaker 2: twenty seventh degree order of the fluty flaws of the
Speaker 2: floody does it doesn't matter?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 3: Cool Graham Pooba of the shit.
Speaker 2: Who is talking to a Master Mason level three who
Speaker 2: is deciding whether he's going Scottish or York. Right, This
Speaker 2: guy's been Scottish right for years. He has all the monikers,
Speaker 2: all the things.
Speaker 3: Whatever. You're saying, it's a lateral.
Speaker 2: Move rather than a elevated move. So many people would
Speaker 2: disagree with you on this one bro break this down
Speaker 2: for us to show that this means that the literal move.
Speaker 4: But these these people who would be disagreeing with me,
Speaker 4: are they Masons?
Speaker 2: And again outside looking at there are some Masons that
Speaker 2: would disagree with you. For the record, these are the
Speaker 2: same Masons that would say, oh, the Prince Henry Lodge
Speaker 2: are not real Masons.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's at that At that point, it's like this
Speaker 4: elitism based off fat That's.
Speaker 3: What it breaks down to, dude.
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, like it's we
Speaker 4: say it constantly, it's it's it's actually in like it's
Speaker 4: it's in some form of Masonic bylaw. Forget tradition. I
Speaker 4: mean it's in many places, it's written into masonry that
Speaker 4: there is no actually actual higher degree than the third.
Speaker 4: So it's and this was this is the way. Functionally,
Speaker 4: Let's say let's say, okay, well that's debatable. Let's say, well,
Speaker 4: like we can't find it in our we can't find
Speaker 4: it in our book, okay, so but functionally, can the
Speaker 4: Scottish righte come over to you the Blue Lodge until
Speaker 4: you start telling you what to do and start bossing
Speaker 4: you around and start talking to just like actually as absolutely.
Speaker 3: Not you're gonna have it, and they I don't.
Speaker 4: Know, absolutely not absolutely as a matter of fact, Scottish Right,
Speaker 4: you know they are. It's almost famous for for for
Speaker 4: having issues with either your right groups at a local
Speaker 4: level or sometimes uh, it's somewhere in the history. You know,
Speaker 4: it's like because a lot of these a lot of
Speaker 4: these lodges, a lot of these valleys, they have like
Speaker 4: hundreds of years of history and at some point you
Speaker 4: can see like this battle, this disagreement because at one
Speaker 4: point Scottish Right, particularly in the South, they had a
Speaker 4: lot of real estate, you know, they really really did,
Speaker 4: and and in the eighties they started divesting themselves of
Speaker 4: all that, which has kind of left a catastrophe for
Speaker 4: modern modern But but it's you know, functionally, it does
Speaker 4: not work that way. I mean, if you've reached the
Speaker 4: third degree, like you are on the level, there is
Speaker 4: nobody that is higher than you or can tell you
Speaker 4: what to do.
Speaker 3: You say, they're always on the level, if you might if.
Speaker 4: You yeah, yeah, And technically what we say, also at
Speaker 4: least in the North Carolina working is we're all travelers
Speaker 4: headed west because west is death. You know, we're all
Speaker 4: headed to death. And that's if anything. You know, if
Speaker 4: I could put freemasonry into a single kind of idea,
Speaker 4: it's it's a memento more. But the thing is, you
Speaker 4: know a lot of people know memento MORI remember death,
Speaker 4: but they don't know the second half of that, which
Speaker 4: is ergo memento vivieri, which the full thing translates to
Speaker 4: remember death and therefore remember to live. Yes, so so,
Speaker 4: And that's not live like hedonist, it's lived. Help people,
Speaker 4: be a boon to your community.
Speaker 2: It means yes, it means live as if you might
Speaker 2: die tomorrow, so live today to the fullest. That doesn't
Speaker 2: mean live for yourself. That means live for your community,
Speaker 2: live for your family, give a fuck, truly give back
Speaker 2: to the Yes.
Speaker 4: I mean part of part of your obligation in masonry
Speaker 4: is to not neglect your other duties. We have. We
Speaker 4: have a saying like if if you can't do something
Speaker 4: because you got the kids or you have a family obligation,
Speaker 4: you just say it's my my cable tow isn't long
Speaker 4: enough that month. You know, it's like I can't, I
Speaker 4: can't I have responsibilities to do you in some launches,
Speaker 4: I mean you'll somebody will come up to you and
Speaker 4: be like, listen, brother, Like you know, because every time
Speaker 4: one Mason offers advice to another, it has to remain
Speaker 4: very very fraternal. But somebody, you know, a good brother
Speaker 4: would come and be like, listen, don't don't neglect, Like,
Speaker 4: we'll figure it out. We'll get the extra guy to
Speaker 4: do the degree, we'll get the extra guy to help
Speaker 4: run the pot luck or whatever it is. Don't neglect
Speaker 4: what you got going on at home, because that's not
Speaker 4: what this is about.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Ok, So to circle back, So not only we've been
Speaker 2: we've been hammering the Mason's a good bit here.
Speaker 3: You're not just a freemason.
Speaker 2: You are a esotericist, correct, Yeah, I'd say so. So
Speaker 2: you also acknowledge the Order of the Golden Dawn. Now
Speaker 2: break this down for us, because there are so many people,
Speaker 2: so many scholars, and I will use the quotes on
Speaker 2: the term scholars with very liberal quotes on this to
Speaker 2: say that the Order of the Golden.
Speaker 3: Dawn started out as a way to try to.
Speaker 2: Find the philosopher's stone, esotericism, whatever.
Speaker 3: But there was a big split.
Speaker 2: We're negating the rosa Crucian conversation let's just talk about
Speaker 2: the East versus the West, right, Madame Blovotsky was clearly
Speaker 2: out of her fucking mind. And most people that will
Speaker 2: look at her book and also juxtaposed that against the
Speaker 2: historical narrative will say, oh, wait a minute, she may
Speaker 2: have gone to end.
Speaker 3: You know, she didn't meet the people that she said
Speaker 3: she met. This is obviously a lie. Whatever.
Speaker 2: Fine, fine, But to say that the Order of the
Speaker 2: Golden Dawn was actively trying to find the fountain of
Speaker 2: youth through esoteric and some would say therefore satanic means
Speaker 2: your thoughts.
Speaker 4: Well, I've been a member of the Golden Dawn now
Speaker 4: for about a decade. Yeah, I've done two documentary presentations
Speaker 4: on my channel about it, full edited and everything.
Speaker 3: I've known a secret organization.
Speaker 4: I'm sitting here talking to talking to you about it.
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm just making sure we're all keeping it
Speaker 2: on the up and up here. So like you talking
Speaker 2: about this, are you going to be ousted as a no.
Speaker 3: Sort of a you know, a plug? What was the term?
Speaker 2: What's the term when they say that somebody has turned
Speaker 2: a cia op that now talks about it?
Speaker 3: But was the term?
Speaker 4: I don't know, but I've people have accused me of
Speaker 4: being a plant or something that.
Speaker 2: You know, are you a fucking playing for the Golden
Speaker 2: Dawn and the Freemasons?
Speaker 3: Bro? Where are we at?
Speaker 4: I mean to be one hundred percent honest with you.
Speaker 4: If that's even crossing your mind, like you, you need
Speaker 4: to lay off the fucking weed because you you might
Speaker 4: be smoking yourself retarded. I don't mean you, but like anybody.
Speaker 2: To me, I'm on behalf of the people that might
Speaker 2: be listening to this pod have those questions the fucking
Speaker 2: throw at you.
Speaker 3: I'm asking on behalf of them.
Speaker 4: And look, I've been you know, I've I've done shows
Speaker 4: like uh Tinfoil Hat with with my man Sam, who's
Speaker 4: a great guy and I loves great his his his audience. Uh,
Speaker 4: you know, they're they are convinced first of all that
Speaker 4: I'm Jewish?
Speaker 3: Are you? Are you fucking you dog?
Speaker 4: It's just so fucking weird that like nobody will let
Speaker 4: you tell them, will let you tell them who you are.
Speaker 4: It's like it's like if I if this is It's
Speaker 4: like if I want to go on a date with
Speaker 4: a girl and I'm sitting there telling her the entire
Speaker 4: fucking time, who I think she is. I'm never gonna
Speaker 4: I'm never gonna.
Speaker 3: Know anything about her clearly.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean people have accused me of of that,
Speaker 4: but like, why the fuck would I do that. I
Speaker 4: don't make any money, Like it costs me money to
Speaker 4: go to these goddamn meetings and being an administrator, Like
Speaker 4: it's like, what the hell would I get out of it?
Speaker 4: If if I if I even got a whiff that
Speaker 4: there was any nefarious activity going on, I would just
Speaker 4: fucking leave because, like, I have a life.
Speaker 2: Your local lodge that you pay dues to, are they listed?
Speaker 2: Is a five to one seed three or five one
Speaker 2: seed ten?
Speaker 3: Just curious?
Speaker 4: I I can't give you an an an absolutely accurate answer,
Speaker 4: and so I'm gonna.
Speaker 3: Fair enough, fair enough.
Speaker 4: I just we we I know that we operate on
Speaker 4: a charitable basis. We donate regularly to the Children's Home,
Speaker 4: the Masonic Retirement Home Fund, and to the local local
Speaker 4: Red Cross and VA Hospital.
Speaker 3: Say I'm joking, I'm joking, I'm joking.
Speaker 4: We are. We are technically we're not able. Every year
Speaker 4: I host in Ashville the uh the Southeastern Masonic Symposium,
Speaker 4: and we were forbidden from from making a penny off
Speaker 4: of anything we do. You cannot make. You must make
Speaker 4: zero dollars if you do anything Masonic. That's in the
Speaker 4: fucking by laws. You can't make a red scent. You
Speaker 4: will bleed yourself dry. That's fine, but but nobody will
Speaker 4: pay you to do this. So it's you know. My
Speaker 4: thing is that, like most Golden Donners don't like the
Speaker 4: perspective I take right really, just because first of all,
Speaker 4: again there's no consensus, Like I fucking hate Enochian. I
Speaker 4: don't like doing an Okian. I think the whole thing
Speaker 4: is completely suspect. Yeah, d and Kelly's stuff, It's just
Speaker 4: not my bag. But the thing is, there are Golden
Speaker 4: Dawn magicians that are obsessed with a Nokian and they hate,
Speaker 4: they hate any time somebody even suggests it might be
Speaker 4: a little you know. So so yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: I get you are the outlier on this one to
Speaker 2: say that you, as a member of the Hermitic Order
Speaker 2: of the Golden Dawn, do knock it down with the
Speaker 2: Nokian magic.
Speaker 3: I do that, I have to, but I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't sit there. I don't sit there like leaning
Speaker 4: into it the way people do, like totally in fully
Speaker 4: believing that I'm communicating with this specific type of entity
Speaker 4: or being. It's just okay, there's no way to.
Speaker 3: Know break this down for us. Please, please, for the
Speaker 3: love of God, stop everything. Okay, let's take a let's
Speaker 3: take a hard pause here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about a Nochian magic, because a lot
Speaker 2: of people will make the connection between the Hermetic Order
Speaker 2: of the Golden Dawn and a Nochian magic. And you're
Speaker 2: saying that you don't believe that you specifically you are
Speaker 2: connecting with some sort of a spiritual entity. I'm not
Speaker 2: gonna say a god. I'm not gonna say angel, I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna say a demon. I'm trying to be as
Speaker 2: liberal as I can be. Here is open ended to
Speaker 2: say that you don't get down with a Nokia magic.
Speaker 2: A lot of members of your organization would but call
Speaker 2: you a fraud.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I I don't know that they would,
Speaker 4: because again, a lot of these people I do podcasts
Speaker 4: with I talk to, you know, I'm an outlier, but
Speaker 4: it's not that salacious. I do think that there is
Speaker 4: uh the people that really lean into it, that sort
Speaker 4: of identify them so by the practice of Enochian magic,
Speaker 4: they they don't like it when anybody sort of suggests
Speaker 4: because it's it's happened before in the history of the
Speaker 4: Golden Dawn, right, Paul Foster Case left, he didn't want
Speaker 4: to do any Inochian. There have been other examples of
Speaker 4: people that have kind of walked away from the Enochian thing,
Speaker 4: not carried it over. But it's it's just something that
Speaker 4: I'm knowing the history and then also kind of like
Speaker 4: just having my experience. It should be said that the
Speaker 4: Golden Dawn practice is a radically different form of Enochian
Speaker 4: than Dan Kelly actually kind of established in their journals.
Speaker 2: It breaks it down because some of our cult members
Speaker 2: may never have heard of what you just said.
Speaker 3: Yeah, break this down.
Speaker 4: Enochian magic is essentially a form of magic that is
Speaker 4: predicated on the use of certain alphabets, certain symbols, and
Speaker 4: certain modes of practice for lack of a better term,
Speaker 4: implements and things like that that allow one to communicate
Speaker 4: with a group of angelic supposedly angelic entities that are
Speaker 4: often referred to as you know, Kean angels. Now in
Speaker 4: the sixteen hundred's, John d who was a court astrologer
Speaker 4: for Queen Elizabeth, he began a series of channel to communications.
Speaker 4: He couldn't really do the scrying. Scrying is when you
Speaker 4: peer into a crystal ball, a bowl of water, a
Speaker 4: black mirror, something, in order to create a focal point
Speaker 4: for the imaginal faculty. So because what you're seeing isn't
Speaker 4: actually appearing in the mirror of the water, it's here,
Speaker 4: but it's you're overlaying it onto that thing. So he
Speaker 4: couldn't really do that very well, and so he hired
Speaker 4: a guy named Edward Kelly, who actually ended up being
Speaker 4: a little bit of a questionable character, but Dee was
Speaker 4: convinced that he was at least talented in this. And
Speaker 4: so if it began, over the course of seven years
Speaker 4: a project of communication with these angels that led them
Speaker 4: all over the European continent and embroiled them in politics,
Speaker 4: and ultimately their their lives ended in misfortune, poverty, and ruin.
Speaker 4: So my thing is that we don't do that kind
Speaker 4: of like what we would call, you know, grimoire type
Speaker 4: of magic that that the Enochian system was originally laid
Speaker 4: out to be. It's actually a little bit more of
Speaker 4: a sophisticated system. A lot of quote unquote d D
Speaker 4: purists or Enochian purists. They they are very they very
Speaker 4: much look down their nose at the golden dawns kind
Speaker 4: of innovation of Enochian where they boil it down to
Speaker 4: a different system which is way, way, way too complicated
Speaker 4: to explain in anything less than a half an hour,
Speaker 4: because it's so fucking intricate. It's another reason why I
Speaker 4: hate it. It's like, we don't need to be doing this.
Speaker 5: Kind of stuff making it way more calm, okay, for
Speaker 5: no reason.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, It's like Richmond's already hard, like.
Speaker 5: Like why do we have to I can remember all
Speaker 5: this shit and then add more complicated crap on top
Speaker 5: of it, like no, thank you.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. So so it's but you know, magicians are
Speaker 4: always ceremonialists. They're always in looking for the next kind
Speaker 4: of thing and some more gear. But yeah, I'm not
Speaker 4: a big practitioner of Younokian. I'm very outspoken about it,
Speaker 4: so most people, most people are are kind of aware
Speaker 4: of that, at least in my my personal circle. I
Speaker 4: still will work the system, but I have my own
Speaker 4: safeguards and and so I'm not I'm not not doing
Speaker 4: the work. It's it's just, uh, they're the Golden Dawn itself.
Speaker 4: Even though Enokian technically is the capstone of what is
Speaker 4: considered stylistically the uniquely the uniquely Golden Dawn system of magic,
Speaker 4: it encompasses, particularly in the modern day, almost all of
Speaker 4: Western ceremonial So there's so many other things to do,
Speaker 4: There's so many other cool things to do. So you know,
Speaker 4: it's not like I'm not I'm like just sitting here
Speaker 4: twiddling my thumbs, like I have a whole list of
Speaker 4: things that I have to get done. They have nothing
Speaker 4: to do with Enochian. So that's that's another thing that's
Speaker 4: that's kind of interesting. And and a lot of people
Speaker 4: that go on the record and talk about the Golden
Speaker 4: Dawn have are not in the Inner Order, you know,
Speaker 4: like very few of are actually have have gotten even
Speaker 4: beyond the first grade of the Inner Order. Okay, which
Speaker 4: you know, I'm I'm kind of I'm way past that
Speaker 4: by now, but hm, but yeah, I mean, the Golden
Speaker 4: Dawn itself has nothing to do with the Fountain of Youth.
Speaker 4: They didn't really give a shit about alchemy, which actually
Speaker 4: was a disappointment to me because when I was looking
Speaker 4: through the earliest documents, which are almost all found at
Speaker 4: the Freemason's Hall and the Sria Library. I was like,
Speaker 4: they had this one old guy named W. A. Ayton,
Speaker 4: and he was like apparently their link to the alchemy
Speaker 4: of the past. And he says in multiple this letters
Speaker 4: like he didn't have the stomach for a certain type
Speaker 4: of alchemical work. He like never even did it, and uh,
Speaker 4: you don't. A lot of people come to the Golden Dawn,
Speaker 4: now right. I'm an administrator, so I'm in charge of
Speaker 4: like interviewing them, vetting them, taking them, the learning about them,
Speaker 4: you know, through conversation with them. A lot of people
Speaker 4: are like absolutely in a state of absolute dejection when
Speaker 4: they get into the like okay, I'm in I'm in
Speaker 4: the the last grade of the outer order, and there's
Speaker 4: still no alchemy. What's going on here?
Speaker 3: The order versus the inner order, give us a little
Speaker 3: bit of course.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So the outer order is the Golden Dawn.
Speaker 4: The inner order is called the Rossi rubier Oria krukis
Speaker 4: the ruby rose and cross of gold. It's Rosi Krucian.
Speaker 4: So the inner order is that's where you So I'll
Speaker 4: put it this way. The outer order is a trajectory,
Speaker 4: a system of spiritual alchemy. So spiritual alchemy, absolutely, it's
Speaker 4: a very very cool, very sufficient system of breaking down
Speaker 4: the psyche into four parts what we call the elemental self, earth, air, fire,
Speaker 4: and water, moving through these things, purifying, bringing things into
Speaker 4: awareness and integration. And if it all sounds very psychological,
Speaker 4: it's because it is. But let's not forget that the
Speaker 4: root of the word psychology is seekkey psyche, which means soul.
Speaker 4: So you go through this sort of ritual initiatory path
Speaker 4: of spiritual alchemy, and the magic is done to you. Right,
Speaker 4: we're initiating adepts, trained adepts are doing these initiation rituals
Speaker 4: to you. Now, when you get into the inner order,
Speaker 4: you then do the magic, and you are essentially engaging
Speaker 4: in what we call rosi Crucian theorgy, and the main
Speaker 4: goal of which at the introductory levels is to come
Speaker 4: to unite with what we call your higher divine genius.
Speaker 3: Break that one down.
Speaker 2: Please, So many people will say, uh, you know, divine, masculine, divine, feminine,
Speaker 2: so many of these what I will playfully please don't
Speaker 2: think this is hatefully define as the wo woo spiritualists,
Speaker 2: we'll say divine, masculine, divine, feminine, all these things, as
Speaker 2: if they have any clue what the fuck they're talking about.
Speaker 4: Break this down, So the higher divine genius is at
Speaker 4: actually remember that word I said, diamond. Okay, So in
Speaker 4: the Platonic literature and the of the entire tradition, not
Speaker 4: just the original Platonic dialogues, but everything that was inspired
Speaker 4: after those dialogues, because they formed the basis of not
Speaker 4: just philosophy, but like modern theology. Even so, at a
Speaker 4: certain point they become preoccupied with this idea of linking
Speaker 4: up with their diamond, their personal diamond, which is a
Speaker 4: tutelary sort of angelic being that serves can tell them
Speaker 4: the purpose of their life and help lead them through
Speaker 4: their incarnation and all sorts of things that leads them
Speaker 4: higher up the ladder of ontology, so on and so forth. Now,
Speaker 4: Thomas Taylor, the great eighteenth century translator, who was one
Speaker 4: of the most prolific translators of all time, he translated
Speaker 4: all of this stuff. He did not translate the word
Speaker 4: diamond into its English equivalent, demon, because he knew that
Speaker 4: was not They were not the same word. They didn't
Speaker 4: have the same meaning. So instead he chose the term genius,
Speaker 4: the genius, the personal genius. This is where we get
Speaker 4: the idea of, oh, someone's a genius. It's not that
Speaker 4: their brain is really bigger, they're really smart, but they're
Speaker 4: inspired by something higher than themselves. And so this is
Speaker 4: in a fact, this is where the Golden Dawn gets
Speaker 4: that language. What you're really doing in the Golden Dawn
Speaker 4: Inner Order or is trying, now that you've purified yourself
Speaker 4: and recalibrated your psyche, then to link up with your
Speaker 4: with your higher diamond, which is you can look at
Speaker 4: it for your own sake as like this exogynous, like
Speaker 4: objective entity, but in reality, what it is is it's
Speaker 4: a higher part of your spiritual architecture that completely transcends
Speaker 4: your ego.
Speaker 5: Mm hm.
Speaker 4: So that's that's really what we're looking to do in
Speaker 4: the outer order, and the goal, the specific goal of
Speaker 4: the Inner order is it's something called the tikunhao Lam
Speaker 4: from the Zohar and from Kabbalistic literature, which means the
Speaker 4: restoration of the universe, the restoration of the eons.
Speaker 2: When you said the Kabbalistic literature, do you mean the
Speaker 2: true Kabbala or the Hermitic Kabbala. I feel like there's
Speaker 2: an important distinction to be made here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I wouldn't call one true over the other.
Speaker 4: That'd be like calling that would be like calling my
Speaker 4: grandfather the true baker. And I mean, depending on who
Speaker 4: you're talking to, it's it might be right. But uh,
Speaker 4: I would say, yeah, it's what when I'm when I'm
Speaker 4: talking specifically about the ticun hala Alam, I'm talking about
Speaker 4: uh Hebrew Kabbala. There's also a Christian Kabbala that that
Speaker 4: becomes how the people in the Golden Dawn sort of
Speaker 4: morph it and into this thing and create the Hermetic Kbala.
Speaker 4: And now the difference is the Hermetic Kabala takes Cabalistic
Speaker 4: principles and projects them onto everything, whereas in the Christian
Speaker 4: and the Hebrew versions of the Kabbala they only use
Speaker 4: that that exegetical method, that methodology, a trans translation and interpretation.
Speaker 4: They only use it for sacred scripture. But then people
Speaker 4: in the Golden Down and say, oh, we can put
Speaker 4: this to tarot cards, we can you know, classify the
Speaker 4: planets by the so on and so forth. But specifically
Speaker 4: going to what you what you had asked about the
Speaker 4: takunaha Alam and the Kabalistic literature, particularly the Zohar, and
Speaker 4: it's it's sort of appendicies, which is Hebrew Kabbala and
Speaker 4: the Lurianic Kabbala, the Kabbala of Rabbi Itsak Luria who
Speaker 4: was also known as the Ari and his student who
Speaker 4: really wrote everything down. Hi am vital Okay, So you
Speaker 4: you mentioned taro was your take on tarot cards?
Speaker 3: So many people will feel very very strongly.
Speaker 2: One way or another on this, whether they have ever
Speaker 2: actually seen a tarot deck or not.
Speaker 3: What's your take?
Speaker 4: I like him. It was when I first started, it
Speaker 4: was my preferred method of divination because I'm a very
Speaker 4: visual person. Uh. I had some really interesting experiences in
Speaker 4: the beginning where I would ask a question, and I
Speaker 4: would ask the same question, and I would I would
Speaker 4: keep pulling the same card over hours days. That kind
Speaker 4: of freaked me out when I first started working with them.
Speaker 4: Now it's to the point where I don't need to
Speaker 4: divine all the time. You know, It's like I I
Speaker 4: just I don't need to divine to know, like what
Speaker 4: the traffic's going to be like on my way to
Speaker 4: the grocery store and even some big events in my life.
Speaker 4: It's kind of like, do I really want to know
Speaker 4: what's gonna Howard? Do I want to just kind of
Speaker 4: live my fucking life? Do I can I trust myself that,
Speaker 4: having done all these rituals, gone through all these initiations,
Speaker 4: that I'm actually the kind of person that can finally
Speaker 4: handle whatever happens. Or do I need to sit here
Speaker 4: like like an anal retentive, uh, you know, sort of gopher,
Speaker 4: just just drawing and reading cards. You know, I don't
Speaker 4: When I do read cards, I don't do more than
Speaker 4: a three card spread anymore.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: It's like, but if I if I need that much info, like,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm too close to the to the question
Speaker 4: at hand to be objective about it. So I don't really.
Speaker 3: Go to.
Speaker 4: Diviners and stuff. If I do a lot of elections,
Speaker 4: meaning if like for the premiere of my first episode
Speaker 4: of The Channel, I chose specifically it's called electional astrology.
Speaker 4: I chose a specific time from that place on Earth
Speaker 4: that would be helpful or beneficial for this. I did
Speaker 4: the same thing for my book. I did the same
Speaker 4: thing for my wedding. So I'll use astrology more than
Speaker 4: I'll use taro nowadays. I think the terror is really
Speaker 4: good if you want to do meditations and contemplations. It's
Speaker 4: good for personal work that's not necessarily divinatory.
Speaker 2: Okay, now talking about astrology, you're somebody who with all
Speaker 2: of your background, with all of your research, all of
Speaker 2: your education, you still look at the storyline as if
Speaker 2: that has something to do with you personally.
Speaker 4: Break that down, please, I think it has to do
Speaker 4: with everything and everyone personally. My main break, my main break,
Speaker 4: happened pretty early on, where again I realized I had
Speaker 4: something in between me and the experience of humanity that
Speaker 4: was sort of you know, my inheritance over the course
Speaker 4: of thousands of hundred, probably hundreds of thousands of years. Okay,
Speaker 4: there was something preventing me from engaging with my humanity,
Speaker 4: and the way that it manifested was in things like
Speaker 4: boredom and anxiety and this. Then so you go and
Speaker 4: you try and distract it with food, video games, sex, music,
Speaker 4: and it's just this itch that doesn't go away. And
Speaker 4: I found out pretty early on, like, oh, it's because
Speaker 4: there's this thing that's preventing me from just experiencing reality,
Speaker 4: and that a lot of that thing is that that
Speaker 4: perceptual interface that gets installed through things like you know,
Speaker 4: educ institutional education. So now what I have found in
Speaker 4: divorcing myself for a time from all of those things.
Speaker 4: You know, there was a there was a time many
Speaker 4: many years that I did this stuff and had no
Speaker 4: ties to academia. The experience of it really revealed the
Speaker 4: truth of it to me, and it also it also
Speaker 4: integrated me into you know, this universe that I'd always
Speaker 4: kind of felt like a little ship just on a
Speaker 4: getting rocked from from side to side, through through the storms.
Speaker 4: I finally felt like I was a part of this
Speaker 4: you know, teleological machine of the cosmos. And I did
Speaker 4: not I don't get rid of what I under stand
Speaker 4: in terms of you know, modern science, modern astronomy. But
Speaker 4: the thing is this, when I die, what the fuck
Speaker 4: does any of that matter. I don't die with the facts.
Speaker 4: I die with my experience, and so it's I can't
Speaker 4: We're taught nowadays to continually outsource the locus of like
Speaker 4: epistemological authority, right, so like what can and cannot be known?
Speaker 4: We got to leave that to these authorities over here
Speaker 4: and these over there, and those people will never fucking
Speaker 4: speak to each other. And finally, to the end degree,
Speaker 4: they won't be able to see the forest from the trees. Okay,
Speaker 4: so it becomes this Tower of Babbel situation where everybody's
Speaker 4: speaking a different language. So it's that doesn't really bring
Speaker 4: us to wholeness and integration and fullness. But what I
Speaker 4: do is I take my subjective experience of being in
Speaker 4: the world. I take the sort of objective criteria and
Speaker 4: quote unquote facts that are given to us by observable, empirical,
Speaker 4: you know, sort of science, and I don't need one
Speaker 4: to explain away the other. I hold them side by
Speaker 4: side and I allow them to communicate with each other,
Speaker 4: but one is not like they have their own domains
Speaker 4: of authority, and I think that's really important. We get
Speaker 4: a lot of talk about cognitive dissonance, and there's only
Speaker 4: you're only gonna have cognitive dissonance there because somebody fucking
Speaker 4: trains you into buying the bullshit that it's got to
Speaker 4: be one or the other, when in reality, like life
Speaker 4: is a capital M mystery and a mystery, particularly when
Speaker 4: we say something like the mystery traditions, the mystery cult
Speaker 4: is not it's not a puzzle to be figured out.
Speaker 4: It is an experience. It's something to be experienced. It's
Speaker 4: not the mystery traditions. You don't get like these big
Speaker 4: secrets like oh my god, now I know the world,
Speaker 4: what the how the world was made and all this stuff. No,
Speaker 4: you're being introduced to it away a way of walking
Speaker 4: this path to have those experiences, and then when your
Speaker 4: experience of that is your own. So, you know, I
Speaker 4: think that with life, I have to approach life as
Speaker 4: if it is a great, beautiful and terrifying mystery that
Speaker 4: needs to be experienced and not you know, that doesn't
Speaker 4: mean I don't want to know anything about it. I
Speaker 4: have to cultivate my intellect. I have to do that.
Speaker 4: I mean, because human beings are given this great gift.
Speaker 4: But I can't allow the intellect to take over and
Speaker 4: remove my humanity.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: That's that's what's causing all this existential friction in us,
Speaker 4: I believe, and and it's it's one of the this
Speaker 4: is what initiation has has taught me to understand, and
Speaker 4: it's taught me how to be in the world again.
Speaker 4: And it's you know, that's why I get very passionate
Speaker 4: about it because it it's think about it. If what
Speaker 4: I'm telling you actually exists, What if the way that
Speaker 4: I'm explaining what I went through and how I arrived
Speaker 4: at this wholeness actually exists in things like Freemasonry to
Speaker 4: a lesser degree the Golden Dawn. Certainly, if you follow
Speaker 4: the system Martinism, then yeah, the powers that be wouldn't
Speaker 4: want you to fucking look at anything I'm doing. They
Speaker 4: would they'd love to paint a gigantic fucking target on
Speaker 4: my face and the face of other Freemasons and other
Speaker 4: people like that. That's the whole thing now, And I
Speaker 4: speak here generically to the audience, right, you are the
Speaker 4: fucking syop. It's not freemasonry. You are the syop, the
Speaker 4: perceptual filter, the thing that is installing you like a
Speaker 4: goddamn alien on your on your head that you're not
Speaker 4: even aware is there. That is the syop.
Speaker 2: Okay, So to those Christians out there before I ask
Speaker 2: my final two questions to you, what is Martinism and
Speaker 2: how does that apply to everything that we've been talking
Speaker 2: about this evening.
Speaker 4: So Martinism is a tradition coming out of primarily France
Speaker 4: in the eighteenth century.
Speaker 2: It's not Martin Lutherism. Correct, No, okay, mak you sure, no, no, No.
Speaker 4: It's actually named after well, there were two two qualifying
Speaker 4: people involved, but I'll name the one that it's named after.
Speaker 4: His name was Louis Claude de San Martin. So Martinism
Speaker 4: comes from his last name, San Martin, Saint Martin, and
Speaker 4: he wrote beautiful mystical philosophical works under he wrote the
Speaker 4: mononymously under the name of the unknown philosopher, and he
Speaker 4: did not create an order. He worked privately with certain students,
Speaker 4: and then his students went off and had students. Okay,
Speaker 4: So now these grandchildren, so to speak, of Louis Claude
Speaker 4: de Saint Martin system, they meet up one day in
Speaker 4: Paris and their names are Augustine Chabusseau and Gerard Nkos
Speaker 4: who's also known as Papou or PAPIs. They meet and
Speaker 4: they basically say, wait, hold on, you had a teacher
Speaker 4: who studied with Louis Claude de Saint Martine, So did I?
Speaker 4: So did I? You know, Like it's like or your
Speaker 4: teacher studied with someone who studied with so you know,
Speaker 4: like that almost like apostolic succession, so to speak. And
Speaker 4: so then they decide right, being Freemasons in the.
Speaker 3: They were confirmed freemasons.
Speaker 4: Yeah, all of this, nothing, nothing that has left my
Speaker 4: mouth tonight in terms of orders, does not come from Freemasonry.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Wow, that's a lot of orders.
Speaker 4: It is, it is. And Freemasons love orders, and we
Speaker 4: love paper, we love little little certificates, we love new rituals.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got badges.
Speaker 4: Exactly.
Speaker 5: It's like boy Scouts, but for like grown men it is.
Speaker 3: It's like, literally very much is.
Speaker 2: The boy Scotts in America is a whole other conspiracy.
Speaker 3: We can go down another night, but yes, yes.
Speaker 4: So it's effectively it's out of all of these traditions.
Speaker 4: It's much less ritualized. The initiations, of course are ritualized,
Speaker 4: but the practice is contemplative, and it's it's prayer based,
Speaker 4: it's it's actually we call it the way of the Heart.
Speaker 4: And and so there's really not a whole lot of
Speaker 4: Martinist ritual that you are necessarily doing on your own.
Speaker 4: And you know, a lot of it consists of reading
Speaker 4: the Psalms and doing certain studies and uh and praying
Speaker 4: and and it's it's a devotional path, right, like for
Speaker 4: anybody that's familiar with the Eastern stuff. Martinism is like
Speaker 4: the baghdy, you know, the sort of thing that we
Speaker 4: have in the Western naesetary traditions. It's it's, it's it's
Speaker 4: certainly a beautiful thing. It's a beautiful system, and it's
Speaker 4: it's a it's a welcome break sometimes from having to,
Speaker 4: you know, like have all regalion, do all the rituals.
Speaker 4: So it's it's brought me a lot of peace and
Speaker 4: I really enjoy it.
Speaker 2: Okay, So to circle back, all things considered, you have
Speaker 2: been a member of UH. I feel like it'd be
Speaker 2: incorrect to say Martinis, Freemasons, and Golden Dawn. I feel
Speaker 2: like you probably are a member of multiple orders, but
Speaker 2: those might be the main three, right, mm hmm, Okay,
Speaker 2: all this considered, you also claim that you are a Christian.
Speaker 2: May I ask, respectfully, sir, what denomination you claim to be.
Speaker 3: A part of. I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't. I don't claim to be any denomination, but
Speaker 4: I will say this I am. You will find in Martinism,
Speaker 4: UH They're not officially linked, but you will very often
Speaker 4: find when there is a Martinist chapter somewhere, it has
Speaker 4: this kind of like sister church. Okay, and so I
Speaker 4: belong to that church which considers itself pre Nicene Christianity.
Speaker 2: Now we're talking Ethiopian or Eastern or Oriental Orthodoxy.
Speaker 4: Just before the nice scene creed. Okay. So because early
Speaker 4: the earliest forms of Christianity were in the Mediterranean, right
Speaker 4: the churches that Paul was communicating with and so on,
Speaker 4: where the apostles were at. But it does not claim to,
Speaker 4: you know, necessarily be of one particular school or sect
Speaker 4: it is associated with. I would say Rosie Crucianism and
Speaker 4: certain forms of Gnosticism as well, but we don't. It's
Speaker 4: basically like people who look at this stuff and integrate
Speaker 4: it on a mystical and esoteric level rather than biblical
Speaker 4: literalism that drives everybody apart and needs to like choose
Speaker 4: a side and choose a team. You know, that was
Speaker 4: never the message of Christ. I don't care who you are.
Speaker 4: That was never. You can argue with me to the
Speaker 4: cawskumb with never the message of Christ. So you know
Speaker 4: these kinds. There's this whole thing called the Independent Sacramental Movement,
Speaker 4: and I recommend if you haven't heard of it to
Speaker 4: check it out. It's essentially a tradition of what we
Speaker 4: call wandering bishops that come from various sects of the
Speaker 4: churches that have been anathematized or kind of outcast, and
Speaker 4: they have gone on because there's nothing outlawing a bishop
Speaker 4: for making a priest. You lay those hands on there,
Speaker 4: you do that ritual. It don't matter what church you
Speaker 4: belong to. This guy's a priest now. So it's you know,
Speaker 4: there's there's a whole tradition out there called the independent
Speaker 4: Sacramental Movie. I would say we're kind of adjacent to that,
Speaker 4: but we're much more esoteric. We you know, a good
Speaker 4: example of of the I s M would be the
Speaker 4: Joeanite Church. Okay, if you look up the the uh
Speaker 4: Joanite or Apostolic Joeanite Church, they they're they're usually considered
Speaker 4: within within the IS s M. But so so, I
Speaker 4: mean I I served as a deacon for seven years
Speaker 4: and then I was ordained as a priest in that
Speaker 4: order and uh, and I administer all seven sacraments. I've
Speaker 4: married people, have baptized people, I've you know, done all
Speaker 4: that kind of stuff. I've even done extorcism. So so
Speaker 4: you know that that's kind of where I stand. I
Speaker 4: I have a very different relationship to Christianity, and that
Speaker 4: I don't fucking need to. I don't need anybody to
Speaker 4: tell me what it is ever, christ You know that
Speaker 4: that's that's really it, because we have everything we need
Speaker 4: and and we have a lot of extra shit that
Speaker 4: just kind of gets in the way. But yeah, so
Speaker 4: that's where I say it all the time, like most
Speaker 4: Christians wouldn't consider me a Christian, but at the end
Speaker 4: of the day, I don't give a shit.
Speaker 2: With that being said, I need to ask this question.
Speaker 2: And I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm being a
Speaker 2: bit of a dick, But there are those of the
Speaker 2: Christian faith that would say the fact that you are
Speaker 2: a part of so many secret organizations makes it inherently
Speaker 2: non Christian. And they will quote Ephesians five, John eighteen,
Speaker 2: Matthew five, Mark four, second Corinthian six basically to say.
Speaker 3: That if you are a part of a secret organization of.
Speaker 2: Any type, any even if that's a secret order of
Speaker 2: Catholic priests, doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: A secret order must.
Speaker 2: Inherently be evil, and if it is done behind closed doors,
Speaker 2: let it be brought to the lights.
Speaker 3: What was your take on this, sir.
Speaker 4: Christianity was a secret organization.
Speaker 3: When you break that down, what do you mean?
Speaker 4: It was a mystery cult? These people, these people could not.
Speaker 4: These people could not.
Speaker 3: When they were being like crucified for their beliefs.
Speaker 4: You mean, well, there are certain certain forms of the
Speaker 4: christian of people in Christianity who have come forth like Jesus,
Speaker 4: like the apostles, But not everybody did that. Sure, not
Speaker 4: everybody proclaimed their faith in other words, because they were
Speaker 4: murdered for it, right, exactly exactly, So, I mean there's
Speaker 4: another reason why why you would have to keep things secret,
Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, because the people won't accept you. Now,
Speaker 4: that's the point I'm trying to make. The point I'm
Speaker 4: trying to make is that the same kind of rhetoric
Speaker 4: and hate and distrust that people would foist upon quote
Speaker 4: unquote secret organizations, secret secret organizations. What we have a
Speaker 4: fucking sign on the door that tells you where and
Speaker 4: when we meet. How is that secret? I'm out here
Speaker 4: doing this thing. You know, nobody's gonna yell at me.
Speaker 4: I can talk about this stuff till the cows come home.
Speaker 4: There's there are no secrets. If you want to become
Speaker 4: one of us. You will find your way to it.
Speaker 2: To do you want to ask one if you know
Speaker 2: what I just said and you know the math behind it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but aside from from any kind of like you know,
Speaker 4: conspiratorial numerology, it's it's like one of the things we
Speaker 4: asked you when you come to Freemasonry eight or nine
Speaker 4: different times, is this of your own free will in
Speaker 4: a court. You see this throughout in the Golden Dawn
Speaker 4: and free and Martinism. Are you making this choice because
Speaker 4: somebody pressured you into we're not allowed to solicit. We're
Speaker 4: not we're not allowed to go out there and quote
Speaker 4: unquote recruit. That's against Masonic uh, you know, sort of
Speaker 4: good behavior. But yeah, Christianity, for sure, in the beginning
Speaker 4: had to keep itself. They had to They were meet
Speaker 4: in houses, you know, they didn't have these these these
Speaker 4: beautiful churches. And in short, the Roman Empire you know,
Speaker 4: eventually incorporates them. But I mean it's it's through a
Speaker 4: long tradition of martyrdom and hiding. I mean, look at
Speaker 4: it this way. Can still go to Egypt and I
Speaker 4: go every year. You can go to the Mortuary Temple
Speaker 4: of the Queen Hatchepsit right, one of the few queen
Speaker 4: pharaohs in ancient Egypt. And you will find what appeared
Speaker 4: to be templar crosses. I don't, I'm not saying they are,
Speaker 4: but they look like the red templar crosses. And the
Speaker 4: Egyptologists there inform us, and we know from from certain
Speaker 4: textual histories that they would leave these signs so they
Speaker 4: would know this is a safe place to meet and
Speaker 4: have our ritual. At that point it was, it was
Speaker 4: already ruins. So yeah, I mean, there are plenty of
Speaker 4: people who you know, who know who I am, and
Speaker 4: I'm sure there are a lot of people now that
Speaker 4: are coming after Freemason's. They bombed the Scottish righte in Athens, Greece.
Speaker 4: They your brother was shot point blank coming out of
Speaker 4: lodge a couple of years ago. Bricks have been through
Speaker 4: our our Masonic temple window. So it's like, yeah, more
Speaker 4: encouragement to like, just like, I'm not like that. I'm
Speaker 4: ready to do fucking battle, you know, because I think
Speaker 4: that if the the overwhelming population has been so mind
Speaker 4: fucked that they are basically everyone is part of some
Speaker 4: part of a raving lunatic mob. And so it's like
Speaker 4: at this point, to completely capitulate is to sign my
Speaker 4: own death warrant eventually. So, uh, you know, I'm a
Speaker 4: little bit more proud of being outspoken against this stuff
Speaker 4: and trying to to you know, I show up hard
Speaker 4: against it, you know, because I'm not.
Speaker 3: I'm not.
Speaker 4: I'm not really afraid of any repercussions from one side
Speaker 4: or the other. There are brothers who think that this
Speaker 4: is what I'm doing right now is on Masonic conduct,
Speaker 4: because I'm talking about talking about sticking up for myself
Speaker 4: and for the fraternity.
Speaker 2: But you also haven't given any secrets, you haven't given
Speaker 2: any past codes, you haven't told us how to do
Speaker 2: the proper handshakes at different levels, like you're you're all good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's it's just, you know, Masonry asks you
Speaker 4: to be a certain way in the world, and that
Speaker 4: is what we would call, you know, up upstanding, upright,
Speaker 4: and square. So, uh, some Masonic, some Masonic jurisdictions have
Speaker 4: written into their ritual lectures, their charges and stuff. Are
Speaker 4: you not supposed to get enter into argument with people
Speaker 4: who defame the society. You're not supposed to, you know.
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, Like I always
Speaker 4: point back to the founding Fathers, right and like they
Speaker 4: caused you know, it was specifically a couple of Freemasons
Speaker 4: who did who or organized the Boston Tea Party and
Speaker 4: had a big part in the revolution and the founding
Speaker 4: of this country. You can say what you want about
Speaker 4: them as people the same way. In three hundred years
Speaker 4: from now, people will be criticizing us for things that
Speaker 4: are completely normal right now. But at the end of
Speaker 4: the day, you know, I think, you know, be a
Speaker 4: good boy sort of masonry was inserted after like World
Speaker 4: War One, world War two, when it was you were
Speaker 4: expected more so to kind of like toe the line.
Speaker 4: I think certainly in order for Freemasons to stand up
Speaker 4: for themselves, their sovereignty, their country, their families, they had to,
Speaker 4: you know, put up a little bit of a fight.
Speaker 4: And that's kind of where I'm at now. I'm fully
Speaker 4: aware I'm not going to change anybody's mind, but I
Speaker 4: think that there needs to be some pushback and there
Speaker 4: needs to be some alternative, some sane voice out here
Speaker 4: for people that are kind of on the fence.
Speaker 2: But you also recognize and understand the fact that you
Speaker 2: are the outlier to say that you are going against
Speaker 2: our pike, to say that you are going against.
Speaker 4: But all of the north, the entire northern jurisdiction of
Speaker 4: the Scottish.
Speaker 3: Rice helped me out real quick, real quick.
Speaker 2: When you say the northern jurisdiction, there's a fish out
Speaker 2: of water asking this question, where does that line draw?
Speaker 2: Are we talking the Mason Dixon line, but some people
Speaker 2: claim the south is if you were south of the
Speaker 2: Mason Dixon line, which I call bullshit.
Speaker 3: Where are we talking?
Speaker 4: It's I believe from Virginia down to Florida and extending
Speaker 4: I think over to Texas.
Speaker 3: So there's the Mason Dixon line. The people like, for instance.
Speaker 4: Really Mason Dixon's a little higher. I aimed to be.
Speaker 2: That asshole, but like, I'm sorry, Virginia is not the South.
Speaker 2: North Carolina is not the I hate to be that dickhead.
Speaker 2: I don't mean to be. I'm not denying their red
Speaker 2: neckedness or their hillbillyiness. But the same time, if it
Speaker 2: doesn't run through your state, you're not the South.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm fucking sorry, but like here we are sorry,
Speaker 3: not sorry.
Speaker 4: You know. Mah Anyway, Well, I think I think you
Speaker 4: might be an outlier there too. If you come to
Speaker 4: North Carolina.
Speaker 2: Listen, I'm not their barbecue. But I'm sorry you have mountains.
Speaker 2: You're not the South. I'm very sorry.
Speaker 5: Huge ticks, lots of ticks. I'm good.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's uh so. The Southern jurisdiction operates based on
Speaker 4: Pike's rituals, and and they like his works like Esoterica,
Speaker 4: Morals from Dogma and so on and so forth. The
Speaker 4: Northern jurisdiction works older rights, which are effectively the ones
Speaker 4: that would have come over from the European continent before
Speaker 4: Pike had had And I'm not again, I'm not a
Speaker 4: Scottish right mason sry. I'm I've never even seen Northern jurisdiction,
Speaker 4: so but I'm aware of the infamous kind of like rivalry. No,
Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that, like I'm
Speaker 4: a complete outlier. I think just my thing is that,
Speaker 4: you know, I was raised in America in a European home, which, why.
Speaker 2: Are you not a Scottish right I understand you fell
Speaker 2: into your right for reasons and things and stuff, nothing negative.
Speaker 4: Because I don't like Pike, and I don't like Pike.
Speaker 3: Why Scottish right, is inherently pike Ish.
Speaker 4: In the South. Yes, the Southern jurisdiction works the Pike
Speaker 4: stuff that the Northern jurisdiction. Fuck all to do with Pike.
Speaker 4: They hate him, they don't want.
Speaker 5: Him around, Like, I don't understand why they would follow
Speaker 5: this person though, Like even just reading his stuff, it's
Speaker 5: just obnoxious, Like, let's be really honest, and then the
Speaker 5: way that he believed in and they and what he
Speaker 5: believed in, and he was upset with people being anything
Speaker 5: other than pro slavery, and then just all of his
Speaker 5: work and what he actually worked on, like his history
Speaker 5: of the person he was, and inherently seems like it
Speaker 5: goes against the original formation of the Masons and what
Speaker 5: they had written down. So I don't really understand why
Speaker 5: anyone would still to this day follow that, like it
Speaker 5: would make more sense to remove it.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, well, and you do get, you get he's
Speaker 4: writing in the in the post war South, when he's
Speaker 4: writing all of this stuff. Yes, he's now a he was,
Speaker 4: you know, he had an office in the military and
Speaker 4: of the Confederate Army. He's now lost. Okay, he's lost.
Speaker 4: That all said, and as we all know, you know,
Speaker 4: the Confederate States to this day still Barrick Grudge. I mean,
Speaker 4: I come down here, you want to take a fish
Speaker 4: about out of water. I mean like, I'm a Yankee
Speaker 4: in the South of literally literally like I mean they
Speaker 4: I've been called a Yankee many times. Yes, yes, exactly.
Speaker 4: I think my old neighbor, Catfish told me.
Speaker 2: Your old neighbor, Catfish said, fucking sends home the fact
Speaker 2: of what you're saying.
Speaker 5: My neighbor is named frog. So like I'm gonna be
Speaker 5: early honest.
Speaker 2: We got my neighbor three streets up named coon Dick.
Speaker 2: And I don't mean that, I mean raccoon dick. He
Speaker 2: has three bones on a necklace he carries he uses
Speaker 2: his toothpick, which is my raccoon dicks.
Speaker 3: Anyway, Yeah, it's disgusting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so yeah, that's the South. But I you know,
Speaker 4: it's I I again, I try to meet that stuff
Speaker 4: without without condoning any of it. I'm trying to look
Speaker 4: at the I'm contextualizing everything based off of what was
Speaker 4: going on in this place at that time, and a
Speaker 4: lot of a lot of those lines from north to south,
Speaker 4: northern and southern jurisdiction have exactly to do with the
Speaker 4: very valid points that you made. It's actually why I
Speaker 4: will not join one of the reasons why I will
Speaker 4: not join the Southern Scottish right now. Here's the thing, though,
Speaker 4: this is what you find a lot in masonry, and
Speaker 4: a lot of people aren't aware of this. Many not all,
Speaker 4: but many Masons are legacies, which means my daddy did this,
Speaker 4: his daddy, daddy did this, his daddy daddy, daddy did this,
Speaker 4: and so now it's like whatever, that kind of like,
Speaker 4: you know, weird fucking interpretation of freemasonry is just another
Speaker 4: you know, I don't know, way to make yourself feel
Speaker 4: like a charitable person that gets kind of like boiled
Speaker 4: into this. And this is also why people join these things,
Speaker 4: is my daddy was the thirty second, my daddy was
Speaker 4: the thirty third, And there's this mystique towards what was
Speaker 4: going on because back in those days and to a
Speaker 4: greater extent today, like we don't talk about what goes
Speaker 4: on in the ritual. You can read, sure, go read it,
Speaker 4: but I'm not going to sit here and tell you, you know,
Speaker 4: then I'd be like it would be fucked up, Like
Speaker 4: why did you join this thing? If you're just gonna
Speaker 4: go around and profane it and talk about it all
Speaker 4: the time. So but you can read it. Everything's published,
Speaker 4: Everything is published, right.
Speaker 3: So with that, I have to ask you.
Speaker 2: There are those that say that to get to the
Speaker 2: thirty third level of freemasonry, you have to acknowledge that
Speaker 2: you serve Lucifer.
Speaker 3: What is your take?
Speaker 4: I did a whole video on the Lucifer question. I
Speaker 4: would refer everybody.
Speaker 3: To that give the plug. Where can they find it?
Speaker 4: R kanam ar Ci n vm. It's what is freemasonry?
Speaker 4: Is the name of the episode I did part one
Speaker 4: and part two. It's a really really solid breakdown for
Speaker 4: beginners that'll get you into that. I'm not a third
Speaker 4: thirty third degree. I do know many thirty third degrees,
Speaker 4: and they really, at the very least the way that
Speaker 4: it's done in North Carolina said it's honorary. It's just
Speaker 4: it's like it's just honorary. It's it's like a boys club,
Speaker 4: is really what it is. It's it's not we don't
Speaker 4: you know. The whole Lucifer thing is is really it's
Speaker 4: a problem because where we get the term lucifer from
Speaker 4: is the is the vulgate Latin translation that of the Septuagint.
Speaker 4: So the Septuagint is the the Hebrew Bible or many
Speaker 4: books from the anoch degree, right, And it's this one
Speaker 4: line from the prophet Isaiah where he says he's calling
Speaker 4: a king of Babylon, specifically a king of Babylon by
Speaker 4: a title called Eosforspray, which means dawn star of the
Speaker 4: morning in the Latin translation. In Hebrew, it's helll is
Speaker 4: the name uh in the In the Latin translation you
Speaker 4: get Luki fed or the bearer of the light. Right now,
Speaker 4: Also in second Peter first, first, actually let me point
Speaker 4: out that if you just you keep taking if people
Speaker 4: take that out of context, yeah, I could talk to
Speaker 4: anybody's the morning star at that point. If you read
Speaker 4: the fucking force sentences for paragraphs that are right before that,
Speaker 4: it's extremely clear he's talking about a king of Babylon,
Speaker 4: and that's who he's saying has fallen from on high
Speaker 4: with the thing.
Speaker 2: There's multiple times in the Old Testament where a probably
Speaker 2: speaking to a physical king and referring to him as
Speaker 2: some sort of a demon. He wasn't talking to the king,
Speaker 2: he was talking to the demon that was imbuing.
Speaker 3: This king to that point. There's more.
Speaker 4: But I don't I don't think. I don't, I don't
Speaker 4: think any I. First of all, i'd have to I'd
Speaker 4: have to check on that before I agree with you.
Speaker 4: Second of all, I would say that it's it's abundantly
Speaker 4: clear that he's not talking to satan uh in this
Speaker 4: particular thing. This is the origin of the term. And
Speaker 4: I'll tell you where where this comes from. You you
Speaker 4: then get the Book of Revelations, which is the last
Speaker 4: book written in the Bible. Okay, there's an intertestamental period
Speaker 4: of four hundred years, so you're looking at a bit
Speaker 4: minimum four hundred year difference. But you get John of Patmos,
Speaker 4: who writes the Book of Revelation, and that is where
Speaker 4: we get the story of Satan as a fallen angel.
Speaker 4: So you get a biblical herminuticists and patriarchs, the early
Speaker 4: christiap basiarists like Augustine, they retrofitted this idea of the
Speaker 4: description of Satan in John's Revelation to fit this kind
Speaker 4: of this this passage from Isaiah. It's because and here's
Speaker 4: the thing. In Second Peter of the same translation, the
Speaker 4: apostle Peter calls Jesus Lucifer.
Speaker 2: That again, contextually speaking, you're right, you're right that when
Speaker 2: he calls Jesus that he's talking about a light bringer,
Speaker 2: as in an illumination bringer.
Speaker 4: So here's what you're doing. Here's what you're doing. What
Speaker 4: you're doing is you're kind of selectively kind of playing
Speaker 4: this game where it's like, well, this, this is more
Speaker 4: valid than the other, when in reality you're making you're
Speaker 4: giving yourself the same exception that you're denying over here.
Speaker 3: Not necessarily, dude, to say the methodology.
Speaker 4: There is not it's not it's not really gibing. But
Speaker 4: but I get it. You've you've probably got a stake.
Speaker 3: In the No.
Speaker 2: No, no, to say that would be the same to
Speaker 2: say that language does not translate or traverse over time.
Speaker 2: That being said, a butt dial in a booty call
Speaker 2: would be the same thing. But booty call dial obviously
Speaker 2: these things mean the same thing. No, a butt dial
Speaker 2: means a completely different thing than a booty call. To
Speaker 2: say that, uh, a Lucifer in the Book of Second
Speaker 2: Peer like you're talking about, clearly means the same as
Speaker 2: Lucifer being the fallen Angel in another context. That that's
Speaker 2: intellectually dishonest.
Speaker 4: I don't really see how you're deriving that. I think,
Speaker 4: I think honestly, honestly, if I'm speaking honestly, I'm feeling
Speaker 4: a difficulty in communicating this stuff with you because I
Speaker 4: would have to sit you down and like take you
Speaker 4: through interpretational hermeneutic class uh for you to be able
Speaker 4: to understand what I'm talking about. But there is no reference.
Speaker 4: There's no reference to Satan as Lucifer in anywhere in
Speaker 4: the Bible. Zero, there's zero reference.
Speaker 3: I would have zero reference.
Speaker 4: It's it's other it's other people translating it as such, saying, oh, here,
Speaker 4: Lucifer is Satan. It doesn't say in the Bible. If
Speaker 4: you can show me where in the Bible it actually
Speaker 4: says it using the vulgate Latin. Satan is referred to
Speaker 4: in the New Testament when he tempts Christ, when Christ
Speaker 4: is talking to the the the the heads of the Synagogue.
Speaker 4: Satan is referred to in the Counts of Elyon. He
Speaker 4: is a kind of court adjudicator in the Old Testament,
Speaker 4: but he's never referred to as Lucifer in the Bible.
Speaker 3: How about Isaiah. We're talking Old tests.
Speaker 4: But that's the thing that it doesn't say it's Satan.
Speaker 4: It's just what I just said to you. He's calling
Speaker 4: a king of Babylon Lucifer. He never equates him with
Speaker 4: Satan in the Book of Isaiah.
Speaker 3: No, No, you're talking about the Latin Vulgate, right, we're
Speaker 3: talking about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's the Latin Vulgate. It's the same book.
Speaker 4: It's just a different translations. The Greek is Aos forrest
Speaker 4: de proie, the Hebrew is hellel. I just told you
Speaker 4: all that. Nowhere does he say Satan.
Speaker 3: You said Latin Vulgate.
Speaker 2: So I found example in the Old Testament of the
Speaker 2: Latin Vulgate where Lucifer is being mentioned as a sense
Speaker 2: of Satan, as in the Falling Angel. But we can
Speaker 2: talk about this another time. I would love to have
Speaker 2: you back on the show.
Speaker 3: Bro.
Speaker 2: I feel like we barely just scratched Jesus Christ. I
Speaker 2: feel like we barely scratched the surface of what you
Speaker 2: could bring to the table. Honestly, So, as we are
Speaker 2: rounding out this episode, brother, where can the people find you?
Speaker 2: Where can they find your content? Where can they find
Speaker 2: your podcast? Your socials? Give yourself all the shameless plugs
Speaker 2: at this time.
Speaker 4: Ike Baker dot com. I k E b A k
Speaker 4: e R dot com. That's got like most of my
Speaker 4: stuff up there. The last documentary presentation I made for
Speaker 4: the Arcanum channel, the last three podcast episodes I did,
Speaker 4: I got my blog up there, and uh, just about
Speaker 4: anything else that you want to know about what I'm doing,
Speaker 4: it's all on there. The YouTube channel is Arcanum a
Speaker 4: ar c A n v M. It's like, uh, sort
Speaker 4: of like type styled like the Latin would have been
Speaker 4: kind of foolish, but I liked it at the time.
Speaker 4: That's uh, that's really that's where you can find most
Speaker 4: of my stuff. All my my socials are on there.
Speaker 4: It's under I'm under the same name on Facebook and Instagram. Uh,
Speaker 4: I don't really do uh TikTok or anything like that
Speaker 4: so or snapchat. So really just Facebook and Instagram. But
Speaker 4: the main thing is gonna be Ikebaker dot com.
Speaker 2: Fuck yeah, dude, absolutely so all the good cult members
Speaker 2: please go give our boy a follow, come help us
Speaker 2: boost the algorithms across all the platforms.
Speaker 3: As you have heard.
Speaker 2: On this episode, he is a wealth of knowledge on
Speaker 2: all the things and the stuff, and brother Ike, I
Speaker 2: hope that we can have you back on the show
Speaker 2: sooner rather than later to break down even deeper into
Speaker 2: so many things that we barely scratch the surface on.
Speaker 2: Kind of mentioned in passing, but we need a deeper
Speaker 2: dive on if you'd be willing, I'm sure our listeners
Speaker 2: would love to hear it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, There's there's so much too, There's so
Speaker 4: much to talk about that it's just like, you know,
Speaker 4: we we might we might serve ourselves a little better
Speaker 4: choosing like one topic to dial down into, you know.
Speaker 2: But I also like you about side masonry, dude, I
Speaker 2: have so many other questions I didn't get to ask
Speaker 2: you on this episode, honestly.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well we can. We can dive into that and
Speaker 4: other stuff on the next time. But thanks for having
Speaker 4: me on. I really appreciate it, and thanks to everybody
Speaker 4: that has tuned in and listened.
Speaker 2: Lily Ravenly, if you have anything you would like to
Speaker 2: send off as far as the cult members to give
Speaker 2: them a little.
Speaker 3: Bit of a you know, a vibe. Where are you
Speaker 3: at with all of this?
Speaker 5: I thought it was really interesting. There's a lot of information,
Speaker 5: like a lot of information, So I liked it. I mean,
Speaker 5: I was a lot more breakdown of things that I've
Speaker 5: been curious about, So I'm definitely interested in having you
Speaker 5: back on to break everything down even further so that
Speaker 5: way we can kind of dispel a lot of these
Speaker 5: conspiracies that many of these organizations have around them and
Speaker 5: actually getting to the actual scholarly the information about it
Speaker 5: is what I'm interested into. So thank you for illuminating
Speaker 5: us with all of this information, because I'm sure that
Speaker 5: actually helped a lot of us understand more about it.
Speaker 2: So good cult members. As we wrap this episode up,
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Speaker 2: to the friends and family shares.
Speaker 3: If we're here's the deal.
Speaker 2: The more activity the algorithm seas across all of all
Speaker 2: listening platforms, the more we get promoted.
Speaker 3: More potential listeners, So could that become potential cult.
Speaker 2: Members like the rest of you, fine laies and gentlemen,
Speaker 2: Why are you ready to go check out minimistics Jonathan's
Speaker 2: of the show and give him the same love and
Speaker 2: respect over the five.
Speaker 3: Star views and the positivity in the comments.
Speaker 2: Come check out the Cage tonight and come join each
Speaker 2: of us for our individual Patreon lives wheels every Wednesday
Speaker 2: night in MPM Central links and those of the description
Speaker 2: as well. And we thank you for everybody's already gone
Speaker 2: and done so. And with all that being said, this
Speaker 2: was another beautiful episode of the Cult of Conspiracy and
Speaker 2: I'm the Cage like in recently, and there's one very important,
Speaker 2: extremely vital piece of information needs to learn just as
Speaker 2: soon as humanly possible that