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Speaker 1: Hi, This is Fred Green of Golf Smarter with Tony

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Manzoni's tenth appearance on Golf Smarter number five hundred and

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ninety four from May of twenty seventeen. It was the

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first of two back to back episodes and had been

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two and a half years since we had last spoken

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to Tony, so clearly we had a lot to discuss.

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Tony's book, The Loss Fundamental, One Simple Move Better Golf

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Forever is available on Amazon in paperback or kindle, and

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is DVD which we've converted to an online digital format.

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Nobody wants a DVD anymore. Can be purchased for only

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twenty dollars, or you can get it for free and

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become a Golf Smarter ambassador when you introduce yourself at

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the opening of a future episode. It's a simple process.

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Speaker 2: Just go to.

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Speaker 1: Golfsmarter dot com from your phone, tablet, or computer and

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click on record your show Open here. It's on the

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right side of the page. Once you've completed the recording,

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you'll receive an email with that private link for the

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most comprehensive information ever collected on Tony and to learn

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how to make a tax deductible donation to our Tony

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Manzoni Memorial Golf Smarter Fund to benefit the first t

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of Coachla Valley, where Tony lived and taught for decades.

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We have it all for you at golfsmarter dot com.

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If you have any other comments or suggestions, or if

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you'd like to purchase the video, please write to me

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directly golf Smarter Podcast at gmail dot com, or click

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on the Heyfred button when you visit golfsmarter dot com.

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Take your golf game to the next level, one club

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at a time with Tony Manzoni. This is golf Smarter,

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sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to

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help you lower your score and raise your golf IQ.

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There's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf

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Smarter Podcast, Tony.

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Speaker 2: How are you, Fred?

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Speaker 1: I am doing well and so glad to hear from

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you again. It's been quite a while, but let me

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let me give the audience just a taste of how

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many times you've been on this podcast. The first time

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back in twenty ten we were introduced, and since then

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you've been on twelve different episodes two fifty one. And

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take notes of this, folks, because after you hear this

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conversation with Tony. You're going to want to go back

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and listen to other things he has to say, because

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I've had golf smarter listeners have told me that they've

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traveled cross country to go get lessons with Tony. Right,

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you've had people come in from New Jersey or Connecticut

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or something, Tony.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, a doctor come in from New York. He runs

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one of the largest hospitals there, and he came in

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for a two day golf instruction period, and you know,

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it just kind of I was kind of I was, well,

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first of all, I was flabber guests at number one,

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and you know, it's a big compliment, and he's turned

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out to be just a wonderful friend on top of it.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's great. Oh that's great. I have a feeling

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I know who you're talking about. So two fifty one,

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two fifty four, two ninety one and three twenty eight,

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four oh eight and four oh nine, four thirty eight

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and four thirty nine, four fifty six, and four fifty seven,

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now four fifty seven back in twenty fourteen. Really, you

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haven't been on that long. My favorite, it's one of

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my favorite titles of all time. And the question I

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posted to you, Tony, if Tiger Woods called you for help,

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what would you say? I loved that. That was a

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great episode, So I don't really twenty fourteen was the

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last time you're on. That doesn't make sense anyway. It's

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great to have you back on the show. Thank you

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so much.

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Speaker 2: I'm very pleased, Fred. And it's been a long time. Uh.

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But you know, as as as we get older, time

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goes by a little faster. I mean, in a blink

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of an I am in a man.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not even gonna ask this time how old

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you are, because I think I asked you before, which

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was rude, and I'm not going to do it again.

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But you've outlived a lot of your friends. Let's just

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say that.

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Speaker 2: My spometer has turned over a few times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've outlived a lot of friends and a

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lot of famous people that you hung out with down

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in the desert, isn't it true?

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Speaker 2: That's true? I mean starting out with the number one guy,

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Frank Sinatra. His death was you know, it was a

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catastrophe for all his fans, including myself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I bet, But didn't you tell me once that

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hanging out with Sinatra and the rat Pack down in

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those days down in the desert kind of had a

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negative impact on your golf career, didn't it? Your professional

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touring golf?

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Speaker 2: Well, when his the lady that ran his compound, her

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name was Vine, and I was working at Mission Hills

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Country Clubs, I had professional once I got invited. It

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seemed like I got invited just about every night because

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he was retired at that time, and I was opening

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up that pro shop, you know, close to five point

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thirty every morning, and I was leaving the Sinoptra compound

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after two o'clock in the morning every evening. So yes,

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everything suffered a bit, but I couldn't pass that opportunity. No,

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it was just it was an incredible thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's there there are golfers who have

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played on the tour who said, yes, I played on

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the tour and I won once, but none of them

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get to say, but I got to hang out with

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Sinatra every night for way too long.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. It still feels like a Fellini film

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to me, and the people I met and the unbelievable

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dinners and conversation, it was just incredible.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing. Also, I've promoting this podcast that I've been

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putting out recently as a show that I did in

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nineteen eighty seven. But it's just so much fun that

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I had to bring it back. Of this show Radio

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Baseball Cards that's hosted by the late Don Drysdale. You

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knew Drysdale as well, right, I did.

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Speaker 2: I met him on a couple of occasions, and I

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also knew his wife, who was involved in a lot

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of golf activities, and you know, she was an Olympic

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champion and unbelievable gal. But Don was a unique individual

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and very nice. Obviously one of the great pitchers of

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all time. And I have a baseball signed by him

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that I cherish.

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Speaker 1: Unbelievable. All right, Well let's talk about golf now. Enough

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history on where you've been in the marks that you've left.

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I had this idea, and that's why I wanted to

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talk to you about taking your game to the next level,

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one club at a time, right, because there are some

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clubs for some people just don't work, right they Oh yeah, right,

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you know.

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Speaker 2: I think golf clubs, as we all know, that play

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and suffer through this this challenge. Uh, some golf clubs

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don't like you. I mean, I've had wedges that I

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wanted to tie to my car and drive around the block.

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Let pay them back with all the skull shots that

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I hit with him.

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Speaker 1: So I've often said that I had a five iron

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that I was allergic to. I know exactly what you mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all kidding aside. That's why getting fitted is so important,

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because then you you eliminate the blame factor.

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Speaker 1: I recently was fitted for a new set of clubs,

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and I really love these clubs, but there seems to

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be one club that is not cooperating. I've got I'm

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hitting everything where I'm pointing, I'm my target, It goes

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to where I'm you know, focused on, except this one

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club just takes this huge right turn every time. Is

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that possibly because the set there's one club that was

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not correctly made in that set? I mean, what can

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I do about that?

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Speaker 2: Sure? Well, often lie changes, especially if they're they're not

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cast clubs, and even cast clubs, you can move them

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a little bit. So yeah, that happens a lot. Or

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it's you know, it's because you fear hitting the shot

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with that club, which compounds the problem. And you know,

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probably in most cases that's it. There's a it's so

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difficult to stay in that have that feeling that you're

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going to hit a good shot prior to hitting it,

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and I think that's the challenge for everyone at every level.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I haven't had them long enough to

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fear the club, and it's a club that in previous

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sets I've been you know, really excited about, Oh good,

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I've got a six iron shot that I want to

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make here, and now this six iron is baffling me.

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I'm just wondering if maybe I should take it back

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to the club fitter and say, can we test to

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see if this is within its correct specs? Is that Oh?

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Speaker 2: Sure, they could do that quite easily. They can check

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the loft and lie on the club, and they can

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also check the shaft, you know, if it's you know,

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performing properly and they have they have your whole set

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that to go go buy, so they can just you know,

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make sure that it is matched. And this does happen,

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there's no question about it. But I'm glad to hear

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that you had your clubs fitted. And that's really an

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important thing. You know, when you when you think of

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the the top professionals have it done. We we meager

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players must have it done and that's the problem. Most

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people will go and buy a club right off the rack,

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and then they're chagrined when it doesn't work for them.

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A lot of times it's just because the club doesn't

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fit right.

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Speaker 1: Well, what about they if they go into the shop

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and said, hey, you know what, I hit my friend's

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driver and I crushed it. I want to buy that driver.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to replicate. I mean, I have a

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good friend that is he's noted for those kinds of things,

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and he'll go and he'll try a demo club, but

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he'll want to buy that demo club, you know. And

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a lot of times they said, but we can't sell

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you this one, but we'll get one like it. But

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he refuses to do that because psychologically, if he gets

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another club that has the same name and it's supposed

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to be the same thing, and hits a bad shot

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with it, he's not going to say, well, that shot

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was because I swung poorly or did something. He's going

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to say that this isn't the same club. So there

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they were, right back to that psychological thing that we

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all fight. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Actually, about ten years or so ago, I remember having

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a conversation on the show with Kenny Nicholson when we

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were working with Edwin wi It's golf, and he said,

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if you have an opportunity to swing a friends club

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and you like it, try to buy that club off

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your friend, because you're never going to find that exact

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right club.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's true.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was no question I was going to get fitted.

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I We've been advocating being fitted, you know since the

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very beginning. We've talked to guys like Tom wish on Uh,

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one of the you know, the great custom club makers

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in the world, and getting fitted is so important. But

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I always when I recommend to people to get fitted,

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they're like, you know, but I'm not. I'm going to

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wait till I get more consistent. I want to wait

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until I feel more comfort. What do you tell people

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who who have you know, who aren't don't feel like

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it's necessary yet they're going to get to some place

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where they're going to do that.

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Speaker 2: I can tell you that's a soul I'll see to

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say that I'm going to wait till I'm going to

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be more consistent. You better have a lifespan of about

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two hundred because the only guy I know that got

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to that point was Ben Hogan everybody else mishits the ball.

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And that's just the nature of the sport. Really well,

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it isn't even a sport. It's a challenge. That's the

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nature of it. I mean, think about it as the

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little ball sitting there, not a very big target, and

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we're swinging a golf club's in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties,

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depending on your speed and youth at that little creature

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down there, and we're told to hit through it. But

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it's really hard to hit through it without trying to

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hit it. And that's it's a constant it's a constant challenge.

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And say I'm going to wait till I get consistent.

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It's just you know, you want to start laughing. But

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a lot of people feel I've heard that said before,

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and I say, you know you're going to wait a

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long time. Pal. The whole thing about getting fitted is

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the clubs feel good. You get a sense of oh,

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the weight feels right. I feel like I could swing

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this club. And it gives you confidence. It really does.

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And of course if they're all somewhat the same, they

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can't be exactly the same. But if they're somewhat the same,

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especially the shaft, you got a much better chance to

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hit your mishits can get much better.

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Speaker 1: Right. Somebody recently said to me, I want to be

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more consistent first, and I said, well, how do you score?

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What do you generally shoot? Goes Well, you know, I

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pretty much shoot in the upper eighties low nineties consistently.

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And I said, well, then you are consistent. What's the problem. Well,

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I have mishits during the game. I said, well, everybody

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has mishits. But there are you working on the things

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that you're not good at when you're practicing. Oh, I

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never practice. I don't have time to prepice. Well, then

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you're never going to get consistent if you don't practice.

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And you know, you want to talk about getting consistent,

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You want to talk about getting better, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right. And and really we learn

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more about our game when we mishit the ball then

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we hit than when we really you know, hit it pure.

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When you you know generally when you drive it down

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the middle and you just clocked it, uh, you're just

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you know, you look and you get so excited, but

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you don't get a lot of feedback because you're kind

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of in that zone where you're not really thinking about

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how to do it when you hit a poor shot.

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And this is a I all the golf teams have

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had through all the years with the young guys, I

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tell them, listen, don't let when you hit a poor

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shot your first thought is anger. What you should do

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is watch that ball and blueprint in your in your

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mind of what what's the spin on it is? The

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spinning right, left, whatever? Or you did you hit it

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thin or did you hit it fat? And and then

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then there there's a there's a remedy for those things.

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But if you don't, if you kind of black out

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and just get mad, you know you, that's the time

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when you learn. And that's why turing pros are so

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darn good, because they get they they when they know

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when they hit a ball and they block it, they

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know what they've done and they can make a quick cure.

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But they're they're really conscious of what happened. They're not.

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They don't just bluster and slam the club on the

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ground and so forth.

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Speaker 1: My favorite is when somebody says, you know they're having

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a problem, Oh, well, I know what I did wrong.

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It's really how do you know that? Have you ever

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had a lesson? Have you ever had anyone tell you

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what your issue is. No, but I just know I've

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watched a lot of TV, so yeah, I know what

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I'm doing wrong. Oh okay, well we'll let it go

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at that. The other thing about being fitted for clubs

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and having clubs in your hands that you feel have

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been not custom made, but customized for you is your

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level of confidence when you're playing. I know that I've

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only been playing with these clubs now for just under

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two months, and my last round I walked out there,

294
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I had so much confidence when I walked off the

295
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range that I was able to carry through the round,

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that I had one double bogie in the round and

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I just you know, I shot an eighty and I

298
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was just ecstatic. But it felt great the entire time.

299
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So the amount of confidence.

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Speaker 2: Sure, that's a wonderful feeling, you know, because the game

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is a field game, and it's wonderful when when you

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have something in your hands that feels right. And there's

303
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,440
lots of times where you'll have a golf club that

304
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doesn't feel right, and I promise you don't beat your head,

305
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,039
you know, beat yourself over the head trying to make

306
00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,919
it feel good. Get it, get another one, you know

307
00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:55,399
I told you about the three what I had for

308
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,679
so long, and I just you know, just plagued me.

309
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And instead of replacing it like I should have immediately,

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I fought the darn thing and it just wasn't for me.

311
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And and so I suffered with a lot of bad shots,

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whether it was psychological or the club was really too

313
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heavy or whatever. Uh. And that's the best advice I

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can have anybody. If you have a putter or whatever

315
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:23,000
that you feel like you can't putt with, get another one.

316
00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,480
I mean, you know, that's okay. I mean even the

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00:17:25,559 --> 00:17:26,480
touring pros do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but the touring pros seem to change their grip

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00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,960
on their putter a lot too.

320
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Speaker 2: Well, that's you know, that's probably you know, when you're

321
00:17:36,519 --> 00:17:38,880
putting for a million dollars, it's a little different than

322
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,440
when you're putting for two dollars. So what happens is

323
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that we started getting too involved in the action. Uh,

324
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and we we we acquire a little bit of a

325
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hint a flitch like they call it the yip, where

326
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you where you're you're too involved with impact, especially with

327
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,279
the putter or you're putting the ball is just a

328
00:18:00,319 --> 00:18:03,640
matter of swinging the putter back and forth in a rhythm.

329
00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:07,839
But they've made so much about it, so you know

330
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,519
with all these claw grips and this grip and that grip,

331
00:18:10,839 --> 00:18:15,440
and the big grips now are very popular because the

332
00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:18,079
hands are taken out of it a bit. But I

333
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:21,200
think the big grips take away the feel of the

334
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,240
head and that was very important. If you look at

335
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,440
the putters of the past and some of the great

336
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,720
guys that put it, they had very small grips because

337
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,799
they wanted to feel the way to the clubheads. So

338
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,680
you know, it's it's all relative. But right now that

339
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,839
seems to be the thing. You see, the grips on

340
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,039
most of the putters are pretty large.

341
00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:46,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're thick grips. I love having the thick

342
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,440
grip on my putter just because it keeps me from

343
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,160
squeezing too tightly. It allows me to loosen my hands.

344
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very true. You know, you can use more

345
00:18:56,519 --> 00:18:59,559
of a shoulder armstroke opposed to you know, more of

346
00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:03,000
a pop in our handstroke. You look at you know,

347
00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:05,480
some of the great putters where you know they hinge

348
00:19:05,519 --> 00:19:08,559
the putter back and through, like Billy Casper and people

349
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,400
like that. And and today's world you get Seneca who

350
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,960
kind of pop putts everything. But you know, you know,

351
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,720
when I teach, I have a lot of juniors I

352
00:19:17,759 --> 00:19:20,839
teach that have done very well, and I don't emphasize

353
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,279
a lot of technique and putting. I really want them

354
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to have a natural feel and to train them if

355
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,680
anything on distance control, their eyes will eventually get used

356
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,759
to work what square is. But when you start talking

357
00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:41,119
about putting and how to do it too much, I

358
00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,079
think you, uh, you get people too conscious of the

359
00:19:45,079 --> 00:19:47,799
stroke during putting the ball and what are we doing

360
00:19:47,799 --> 00:19:50,000
when we're playing. We're rolling the ball on the surface.

361
00:19:50,559 --> 00:19:52,480
And you know, if you just keep it simple like that,

362
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,359
you take these little kids, you give them a putter

363
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,359
and a ball, and you see them putt terrific because

364
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,400
their mind isn't clogged up with all this technique. I

365
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,480
think that's that's it's been so overdone and there's so

366
00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:07,160
many things you can buy where you're putting. Take the

367
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,359
putter straight back, and good lord, the greatest putters in

368
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,839
the world didn't take it straight back. Some of them

369
00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:15,319
cut the putts, some of them block hook the putt,

370
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:22,240
and George Lowell, Gosh Maxwell I've seen so many guys

371
00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:24,960
cut cut putts, but that was their natural way of

372
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,079
doing it, and they didn't question it. It's like, you know,

373
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,000
it's like Jim Furick with his golf swing. You know,

374
00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:31,960
if you wanted to break that down and say, well

375
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,400
that that's not on plane, well it is on playing

376
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,200
when he hits the ball. So I'm I'm a you know,

377
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,519
as I teach, and I've been teaching a long time

378
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,119
at every level from turning professional to twenty five handicappers.

379
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The less you say the better, the more more they

380
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,759
can the more they can see it and feel it

381
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:59,000
based on words you give them, the better, the more

382
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:01,680
technical you get. Most people can't handle that, you know,

383
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,519
And I think most people do their best when they

384
00:21:05,559 --> 00:21:08,480
see it more than when they're told how it's supposed

385
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,640
to happen. I know, as a kid that I caddied,

386
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,240
I learned to play golf watching the people hit the

387
00:21:13,279 --> 00:21:16,480
ball that I caddied for not to be said about that.

388
00:21:16,599 --> 00:21:19,759
Speaker 1: What did you mean when you said cut putting.

389
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,599
Speaker 2: Well, there's there's I'm trying to think of the guy.

390
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,119
But he was a great putter on tour and he

391
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,720
literally cut across the ball. He swung from out to end,

392
00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:33,880
so he put side spin on it. That would literally

393
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,839
make the ball. The spin would be going from left

394
00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:40,559
to right. And you know, we've heard many times you

395
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,240
get get a range ball and get the stripe straight

396
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,480
so that when you put it, the stripe doesn't wobble.

397
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,119
You know, that's that's an effective tool to practice. But

398
00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:54,359
who's the I'm trying to think of the guy that

399
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,759
was the greatest putter of all time where he hooded

400
00:21:56,759 --> 00:22:00,960
the putter going back and then hit from into out

401
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,920
like you're hooking a ball, and he won a million

402
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,039
tournaments because he was such a great putter. My point

403
00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:11,039
here is this, you gotta do it the way it feels.

404
00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:14,079
And once you get away from the natural feel of

405
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,799
your putting stroke and now you start trying to manufacture it,

406
00:22:18,079 --> 00:22:19,759
you're gonna get in a lot of trouble. All this

407
00:22:19,799 --> 00:22:22,880
stuff about well, don't let your wrist hinge or it

408
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,119
has to be a flat wrist rough impact. No it doesn't, No,

409
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,119
it doesn't. In fact, a lot of times when you're

410
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,839
trying to push that thing through with the wrist stained flat,

411
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,599
you blockade it all the time. I mean, there's been

412
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,160
putters Bobby Jones, Arnold Palm. There has been all kinds

413
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,160
of ways of doing it, and you gotta find the

414
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,000
thing that feels comfortable to you, whether it's grip, stance, alignment,

415
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,960
what feels comfortable to you, and then just roll the

416
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,839
ball on the surface just to get to where you

417
00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:55,119
can roll the ball and get away from all this

418
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,799
other stuff. And first of all, you won't get the

419
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,880
yips doing that. But boy, when you start overthinking in putting,

420
00:23:01,079 --> 00:23:04,039
and look at Ben Hogan, that's what he did, and

421
00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:06,160
you know, it's just it's a shame to see it.

422
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:12,319
I have young boys I train and they start saying, Coach,

423
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,559
I can't putt, which is just ridiculous. I said, you

424
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:17,799
mean you can't roll the ball on a flat surface,

425
00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:20,319
and they looked at me like, well, what do you mean.

426
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, he can, but not into a hole.

427
00:23:23,839 --> 00:23:27,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, but you know, it's honestly, I think the

428
00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:32,000
less you emphasize putting, the better you'll put The more

429
00:23:32,039 --> 00:23:36,319
you talk about it and think about it, I think

430
00:23:36,319 --> 00:23:39,680
it puts a block. I think that's where all that

431
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,480
stuff comes from. I think with Hogan, he hit it

432
00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:46,680
so close in his later years and he felt like

433
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,519
he should be rewarded for that. You know, like a

434
00:23:50,599 --> 00:23:53,079
dog with a good boy, he goes outside and does

435
00:23:53,079 --> 00:23:55,480
his business. When he comes in, he wants a cookie.

436
00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:57,720
But in golf there is no cookie. You still got

437
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,000
to get the ball in the hole, whether it's a

438
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:02,200
five foot putter a f f foot putt. And and

439
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,640
I think that's what happened with Hogan because he made

440
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,279
statements that said, you know, the pudgeon shouldn't be so important,

441
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,680
you should get points just for getting it close to

442
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,440
the hole. Well that was his frustration coming up because

443
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,839
he did hit it so close and and and unfortunately

444
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,079
he did have the yips. He couldn't pull a putter

445
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,039
back on a short clut.

446
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: Wow, that's so interesting.

447
00:24:24,799 --> 00:24:26,799
Speaker 2: I mean I watched him at the Olympic Club, the

448
00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:29,079
only time I had the pleasure of seeing him play golf.

449
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,119
And and at the Olympic Club he played in the

450
00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:34,279
I think it was the Open, And I mean he

451
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,799
hit every fairway, every green, and I don't think he

452
00:24:36,839 --> 00:24:39,240
had more than a twelve foot putt all day, and

453
00:24:39,279 --> 00:24:42,279
the only plus he made were kick ins. But when

454
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:44,720
he got that four or five foot he couldn't his

455
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,480
pant leg would be shaken. He couldn't pull the putter back. Wow,

456
00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:49,720
you think about that. This is this is a guy

457
00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:51,720
that could hit a go in a motel and hit

458
00:24:51,759 --> 00:24:54,640
a two arm right down the hallway and not hit

459
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,640
either side of the wall. I mean that's what he

460
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,079
could do. I mean that that's now, that's a genius.

461
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,160
So now you walk up to him and say, Ben,

462
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,119
you mean to tell me that you can't take this

463
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,920
putterback and roll the ball on the green? What? What?

464
00:25:08,079 --> 00:25:10,160
What do you? What are you thinking about? See? But

465
00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:12,160
you know, of course you couldn't do that. But I

466
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:18,160
mean that's the that's the silliness of putting. And now

467
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,599
look at all the look at all the apparatuses you

468
00:25:22,599 --> 00:25:23,680
can buy to put better.

469
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:35,279
Speaker 1: I've never heard anybody describe, uh using the analogy if

470
00:25:35,279 --> 00:25:38,799
it is an analogy or not true? About hitting a

471
00:25:38,799 --> 00:25:41,200
two iron down a hallway in a hotel room and

472
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,200
not hitting the walls. Is that actually a story that

473
00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:45,240
happened or is that.

474
00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:49,039
Speaker 2: Just from what you know? You hear all kinds of

475
00:25:49,079 --> 00:25:52,160
stories about him, just like you do Mo Norman. But

476
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,680
he actually had a bet that he could do it,

477
00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:01,240
and he did. Right off the carpet. The guy could

478
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,279
he could not only control the flight of the ball,

479
00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:09,920
but the trajectory of the ball. He was. It was magical.

480
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,000
I believe me when I tell you it was magical

481
00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:15,839
watching him play. That Olympic Club is really hard courses,

482
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,160
you know, And then they had it set up for

483
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,480
the Open, and he made it look like you know,

484
00:26:20,599 --> 00:26:23,519
toy Land. It was just he just went around that

485
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:26,599
golf course and just diced it. And in fact, I

486
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,960
was a very low handicapped player. I was in the

487
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,240
plus area, and when I saw him play, I realized

488
00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:36,359
I really don't know how to play golf. And because

489
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,640
it was watching a master, you know, do a painting

490
00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:43,720
or something, I felt I was happy to see it,

491
00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:45,839
but I was very insecure. When I got in my car,

492
00:26:46,279 --> 00:26:49,240
I can say that.

493
00:26:48,079 --> 00:26:52,079
Speaker 1: That's really interesting and painful. Well, I think that take

494
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,480
this idea of taking your game to the next level

495
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,359
one club at a time, which I suggested, but I

496
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,240
do want to cover it. I think starting at the

497
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,799
putter is a great place to start with that. So

498
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,519
I'm going to toss out these club names and give

499
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:12,160
me a thought or a tip on what you can

500
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,960
do to take your game to the next level with

501
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:17,039
that specific club and let's start with the putter.

502
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: You know, again, with the putter. What I teach I

503
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,640
teach people to hold the putter comfortably and any way

504
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,519
they really want to hold it within reason. And I

505
00:27:30,599 --> 00:27:35,000
work on I work on distance control, whether it's a

506
00:27:35,039 --> 00:27:37,279
five foot putt or a twenty foot putt or a

507
00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:41,400
fifty foot put I don't tell them to get it

508
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,480
into a circle around the green. I tell them to

509
00:27:43,519 --> 00:27:46,519
try to roll it into the hole on all putts,

510
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,599
because I think that's a natural feeling. Where you're saying,

511
00:27:51,759 --> 00:27:53,559
put it in a three foot circle. Now you bring

512
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:56,880
it into another another situation that you have to deal with.

513
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,799
So in putting, teaching them to roll the ball. In fact,

514
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,680
in fact, one of the great pro said, if I

515
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,240
were going to teach putting today, and this is this

516
00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:09,559
is the fellow that helped Jack Nicholas putt, he said,

517
00:28:09,599 --> 00:28:12,039
I would put somebody on the green with no holes,

518
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,240
and I would teach him to roll the ball distances,

519
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:17,920
teach him how to roll the ball and not not

520
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:21,480
hit it and skid it, but roll it. And I

521
00:28:21,519 --> 00:28:23,680
believe that quite a bit. HM.

522
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: So I actually want to go to a different club

523
00:28:28,839 --> 00:28:31,279
that I saw a video tip that you did that,

524
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,720
I've used ever since, and I'm going to go to

525
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:39,119
the eight iron for using it around the fringe to

526
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,440
get the ball onto the green using your eight iron

527
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,160
club cutter.

528
00:28:44,599 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, Paul Runyon was was the first guy that really

529
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,920
did this where he would take the take an eight

530
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,079
iron or a seven iron or a five iron, whatever,

531
00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:56,039
depending on the distance you had to cover. Uh, and

532
00:28:56,119 --> 00:28:59,599
he would take the heel of the club off the

533
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,400
ground so that he could get the shaft in the

534
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,880
same alignment as your putter, and he put his hands

535
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,319
on it on the lens in some cases if he

536
00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:10,160
had a fib and he'd slide his hands down near

537
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,720
the medal so that he was replicating standing up with

538
00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:18,920
his putter. And then he used a putting type stroke,

539
00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:21,720
now not exactly the club had to come up a

540
00:29:21,759 --> 00:29:24,799
little bit, but he used more of a one lever

541
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,359
stroke opposed to cocking the wrist or doing anything like that.

542
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:32,200
And the idea was is to find out how far

543
00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:34,359
on the green you had to land the ball and

544
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,279
then let it release to the hole. So if you

545
00:29:36,319 --> 00:29:39,519
were up close you'd be hitting an eight iron, nine iron,

546
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,279
or even maybe a pitching wedge, you wouldn't use this

547
00:29:42,359 --> 00:29:45,359
on a with a sandwich. It's too much loft, But

548
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,480
that's a much simpler way to chip. Most people will

549
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,119
pull out their sand wedge or pitching wedge and then

550
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,599
use it all around the green when they're chipping. I'm

551
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,000
not talking about pitching the ball. I'm talking about chipping it.

552
00:29:56,359 --> 00:30:00,920
And that's a much more difficult shot. Much more difficult.

553
00:30:02,039 --> 00:30:05,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. I mean I was telling you that

554
00:30:05,279 --> 00:30:09,440
this eighty that I shot the other day, I only

555
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:13,319
had I had six one putts on the front nine.

556
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,559
I was one over par. After nine, I only had

557
00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:21,960
one birdie. But that means I was coming up short

558
00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:25,200
on my approach shots, but I was getting it close

559
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,839
to the hole. And a lot of times I've been

560
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,640
using that eight iron chip and it's it. Once you

561
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:36,160
learn to control that, once you feel comfortable with it,

562
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:37,960
it's a great shot to have in your bag.

563
00:30:39,319 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because you know, when you're chipping, you're not

564
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,400
trying to impart backspin. You want the ball to release

565
00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:48,920
the hole and quicker you can get it on the green,

566
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,599
the better. When you have a more lofted club, you

567
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,559
have to lift the club a bit and hit down

568
00:30:56,559 --> 00:30:59,000
on the ball a bit and that brings them into

569
00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:02,240
a lot of areas of getting tight with the hands

570
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,039
and either sculling it or hitting way behind it. They

571
00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:09,160
call it chilly dip, but both of them are hideous,

572
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,880
especially the skull. Like the guy said one time, how

573
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,079
far do you hit the bus? So I hit my

574
00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:16,880
sand wedge about one hundred and fifty yards just really,

575
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:23,160
he says, yeah, from a greenside bunker. You know, that's

576
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:28,319
that happens. That happens with these clubs that are constructed

577
00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:30,279
that way. You have to be a little bit more

578
00:31:30,319 --> 00:31:33,720
accurate in your stroke or with a putty of stroke.

579
00:31:33,759 --> 00:31:36,640
Even if you hit a little thin it doesn't really

580
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,559
affect anything, and you know the ball will roll just

581
00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:40,599
about the same as you did if you hit a pure.

582
00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:43,559
Speaker 1: I've noticed a lot of people will take a lob

583
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:48,720
wedge or a high lofted club if they're five, ten,

584
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,119
fifteen yards off the green, Well, let's just keep it

585
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:55,799
at ten yards off the green and in. But they're

586
00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:58,880
trying to get the ball to land, land softly and

587
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,200
then trickle up. But isn't the goal shouldn't you try

588
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,720
to get the ball onto the flat surface as soon

589
00:32:05,759 --> 00:32:07,839
as possible and let it release let it roll as

590
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,079
long as it you know, can or do you want

591
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:10,960
to try to drop it in?

592
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:15,559
Speaker 2: No? No, absolutely, when you're when you're doing those kinds

593
00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:18,359
of things, you you've got to you've got grain to

594
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,440
deal with. Uh. Sometimes you know you have a set

595
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:26,160
the green goes up, or you'll have a second lever. Uh.

596
00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:31,559
Your your your target is way too small when you

597
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,960
do those kinds of things, and sometimes you impart back

598
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,480
spin on it where you pinch it a little bit

599
00:32:35,519 --> 00:32:37,920
and you get too much backspin. So you want to

600
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,519
get all that out of there. You want to just

601
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:41,359
get that ball on the green and let it release

602
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,920
to the hole. It's just an easier shot. I mean,

603
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,240
that's that's the bottom line. Because the nerves do the

604
00:32:47,319 --> 00:32:50,400
nerves do get get in, especially if you got that

605
00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:54,480
ball a little bit of tight grass. It's it's much

606
00:32:54,519 --> 00:32:56,680
better to take an eight or nine r or seven iron.

607
00:32:56,839 --> 00:32:58,240
Just putchip it.

608
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: It's so much simpler, right, Is there a rule of

609
00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:06,920
thumb to how much a ball will release depending on

610
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,519
which club that you use, Like if you're using the

611
00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:12,680
eight iron versus a pitching wedge and you're just you're

612
00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:13,880
chipping it up on the green.

613
00:33:15,599 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 2: Sure, I mean, let's just say that. Let's say we're

614
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,440
gonna land the ball a yard or two under the green.

615
00:33:23,279 --> 00:33:25,359
If you land the ball a yard or two on

616
00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:28,599
the green with a seven iron, the ball is gonna

617
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:30,640
release a lot farther than it does a nine iron

618
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,759
unless you're unless you're unless you're hitting it harder. But

619
00:33:33,799 --> 00:33:37,519
if you're consistent in your stroke, so the less loft

620
00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:40,839
you have, the more it's going to release. So you don't,

621
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:43,359
I mean, I don't just use the eight iron when

622
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,519
I chip because if I have a if the pins

623
00:33:45,559 --> 00:33:47,480
way back and I'm in the front of the green,

624
00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:50,480
I'll take a five iron and do the same thing

625
00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:52,480
because I know that my target is still going to

626
00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:54,599
be where I want the ball on land. It's going

627
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:55,920
to be the same as if it was an eight

628
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,920
iron or a nine iron, but the ball's gonna release

629
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:59,960
farther because I have less less low.

630
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,359
Speaker 1: So it's really about where you want the ball to land,

631
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,720
and then you decide which club to use from there exactly,

632
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:12,400
And how do you pick the area of where you

633
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,519
wanted to land? What are you looking for?

634
00:34:16,519 --> 00:34:20,039
Speaker 2: For me? You know, for me, it's unless the pin

635
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,000
is really I mean, the cop is real close for me,

636
00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:25,719
it's about a couple of yards on the green, four

637
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,880
or five feet and then let it release. But again,

638
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,079
my target might get a little closer to me if

639
00:34:33,559 --> 00:34:37,719
it's a short a short ship. But again my target,

640
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:41,119
my landing target is always close to me, opposed to

641
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:43,599
if I had a sandwidge or a lob wedge in

642
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:44,039
my hand.

643
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: All right, now, let's go back to our wedges, back

644
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,519
to this one club at a time. Let's go I

645
00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:58,679
guess with your lob wedge. If I carry, I carry

646
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:03,840
a sixty degree, a fifty seven degree, and then a

647
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,320
fifty two and a pitching wedge, which is what about

648
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,199
a forty eight? So I carry I like to carry

649
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:14,559
a bunch of wedges with me, as opposed to carrying

650
00:35:14,599 --> 00:35:19,960
a lot of hybrids or fairway woods. So the lob wedge,

651
00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:24,599
what can you do? What will that help you do

652
00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:26,880
to get your game to the next level? And what

653
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:30,039
should you be practicing? Which with a high lofted club.

654
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,559
Speaker 2: Like that, Well, the lobbledge is strictly for hitting the

655
00:35:34,599 --> 00:35:38,760
ball high and soft. So it's a shot where you

656
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,840
want to you know, you're above the green or I

657
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,400
excuse me, below the green, and you need to throw

658
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,119
it up there, but you don't want it to release.

659
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,119
That's what the lobledge is for. Because of the loft,

660
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:50,840
you can go at it with a little bit of

661
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,280
speed and the ball will just go higher. And that's

662
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,559
shots you should practice a lot because there are times

663
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:01,119
you need it. But I I know so many people

664
00:36:01,159 --> 00:36:04,559
that overdo it when they have a much simpler shot

665
00:36:05,079 --> 00:36:07,079
where it doesn't call for that kind of shot, but

666
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:09,559
they still do it. In fact, Phil Nicholson is one

667
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:11,559
of the guys that does that. But you know he's

668
00:36:11,679 --> 00:36:13,880
like a wizard. But you can't.

669
00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's not compare ourselves to what Phil Nicholson can do,

670
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:17,880
because well you can't.

671
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 2: Even guys on tour can't do that.

672
00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:21,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

673
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,199
Speaker 2: But you know, when you're in and around the green,

674
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,719
which is the scoring area, whether you're pitching the ball on,

675
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,519
you want to do it the simplest way, the way

676
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:33,679
that even if you mishit, it doesn't become a catastrophe.

677
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,480
When you start lifting that club up and bringing it

678
00:36:36,519 --> 00:36:39,480
down on the ball in a more steeper angle, it

679
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:43,199
brings in the mishit is going to be It could

680
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,440
be horrendous, or you line drive it over the green

681
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,960
into a lake or something like that, where when you're

682
00:36:49,039 --> 00:36:51,840
using a more level to the ground stroke, if you

683
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,159
hit a little bit thin or a little bit fat,

684
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,480
you don't lose. It doesn't hurt you. And that's what

685
00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:03,719
I when I play. Even when I played well, after

686
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,880
being around Paul Ryning and listening to him, my game

687
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,760
improved dramatically. Even when I would miss a lot of greens,

688
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,039
I could get it up and down a lot easier

689
00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:14,639
than I had in the past, because I was one

690
00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:17,119
of these guys that wore out my sandwich. You know.

691
00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, well turning. I think the best thing I ever

692
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,880
heard about that was trying to turn three shots into two.

693
00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:29,599
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, that's that's the whole name of the game.

694
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,440
And everybody misses greens. Everyone does. As I tell my boys,

695
00:37:35,639 --> 00:37:38,280
if you hit ten balls, seven of them better be

696
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,519
with the short clubs, the scoring clubs, because the driver okay, yes,

697
00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:46,239
the drivers. It's built for one thing, to get the

698
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,400
ball in play with a fairly good distance. But it's

699
00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:55,039
not a long drive club as it's been you know television,

700
00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:56,800
that's all they talk about is, well, yeah I hit

701
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,480
that four hundred yards and three fifty and whatever. They

702
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,599
don't tell you at the ground as hard as the highway.

703
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,960
They said, you get four four hundred yards a roll.

704
00:38:06,199 --> 00:38:08,280
They don't tell you any of that stuff. But it's

705
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,800
too much emphasis on that and not enough emphasis on,

706
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,920
you know, distance control, taking the right club. Ken Venture

707
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:17,920
used to tell me, when you got a seven iron

708
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:21,039
to the green, take a six iron out and hit it.

709
00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:23,679
You're going to be surprised because if you really, if

710
00:38:23,679 --> 00:38:25,239
you kept the chart of every time you hit a

711
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,679
ball to the green, were you short or long, ninety

712
00:38:28,679 --> 00:38:29,840
percent of the time you're short.

713
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: You're short.

714
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, So it was a you know, and

715
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,760
there's something I followed and it improved my game. I

716
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:39,719
got the ball a lot closer to the hole by

717
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,679
doing that. And he got that from Hogan.

718
00:38:42,079 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, club up. That's like this club up on your

719
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,719
approach shots, no question, Like when I'm talking about the

720
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,639
three shots to two. If you're you're the point is

721
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,280
you want to chip up to the green and get

722
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,760
it close enough where you can one putt. Where I

723
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,440
play with people, if you're pitching doing a pick shot

724
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:05,280
from thirty yards or twenty yards in there, if you

725
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,559
get it on the green, they're like, hey, great, shot.

726
00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:09,960
It's like I left myself a thirty five foot putt.

727
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,920
That's not a great shot. I mean, yeah, I'm on

728
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,559
the green, but a big deal. I Mean, the point

729
00:39:14,679 --> 00:39:16,480
was I wanted to get. I wanted to get within

730
00:39:16,519 --> 00:39:17,960
five feet of the hole.

731
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,599
Speaker 2: Well, i'll give you a good example of that. I've

732
00:39:22,639 --> 00:39:24,320
got a lot of young boys that can hit it

733
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,719
the long ways, okay, and we they'll get on a

734
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,119
par five and they can reach it with a three

735
00:39:30,159 --> 00:39:32,840
wood in some cases, I mean I mean power five

736
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,880
that's like five fifty or five seventy five. And I

737
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,679
tell them, look, the trajectory of that ball coming in

738
00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:42,800
is either gonna if you mishit it you're gonna get

739
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,159
You're gonna bury it in the lip of the of

740
00:39:45,199 --> 00:39:48,159
the green side bunkers, or if it hits the green,

741
00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:49,719
it's going to the back of the green or maybe

742
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,559
even over. So you're always going to be looking at

743
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:55,039
a forty or fifty foot putt that you've got to

744
00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:57,559
get down in two and a lot of times you

745
00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:00,480
three putt it and now you say God the green

746
00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:03,559
and chew and I've made a five. Okay. It's much

747
00:40:03,599 --> 00:40:07,559
simpler if you can hit something up there in your

748
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:11,079
scoring range, like sixty seventy yards. Now you can take

749
00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:12,920
your sandwich and throw it up there and you can

750
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,320
get it close and you're gonna make a lot of

751
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,639
birdies that way. But again, you hear that the announcers

752
00:40:18,679 --> 00:40:21,800
talk about these guys, Well, Bob, you know, he's got

753
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,199
a seven iron. It's two hundred and twenty five yards,

754
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,960
and so you know, these kids, that's what they're trying

755
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,760
to do. It's just it's insane. I think that the

756
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,639
broadcasters of golf, some of them, not all of them,

757
00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:38,159
but some of them, have hurt the game so much because,

758
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,079
first of all, we don't get the ball that the

759
00:40:41,119 --> 00:40:43,840
pros play with. Believe me when I tell you that

760
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,880
that ball is custom made to their swing. So they

761
00:40:47,199 --> 00:40:49,840
got a hot ball, and that's why. That's why a

762
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:54,920
guy like you got the one of the masters and

763
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,960
he's got eight aron out and he's hit close to

764
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:01,679
two hundred yards. Come on, I mean, yeah, come on,

765
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,360
that's not possible unless that club is jacked up or

766
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,480
the ball jacked up. Interesting, and that's that's the that's

767
00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:12,079
the reality of it. I mean, it's these guys, aren't

768
00:41:12,079 --> 00:41:14,519
these guys aren't any stronger than Ben Holgen or guys

769
00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:17,000
like that. But the but the ball and the club

770
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,719
they're using is is they're they're juiced up, no question

771
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:22,159
about it.

772
00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:25,519
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well yeah, they seem to be talking about spending

773
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:28,920
a whole lot more time talking about distance and how

774
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,599
they boom it and not the wizardry of the short game.

775
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:35,079
And I think that that these you know, since the

776
00:41:35,119 --> 00:41:38,239
Tiger effect has come in and and courses have gotten

777
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:43,119
longer and longer and longer. Uh, they're playing into you know,

778
00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:45,559
by making the courses longer, just playing into their hands,

779
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,199
make it tougher on the short game, and let's see

780
00:41:48,199 --> 00:41:49,039
what they can do with it.

781
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,039
Speaker 2: Sure, sure, I mean when when when they play some

782
00:41:53,079 --> 00:41:55,800
of these real tough courses in the New York area

783
00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,159
and the Midwest, Uh, they don't tear them up. You

784
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:02,960
don't see twenty under power any of that time. But

785
00:42:03,039 --> 00:42:05,360
they set the golf the golf courses are set up

786
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,159
for scoring. They get in there and they cross cut

787
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:10,800
those fairways. The fairways are faster than some of the

788
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,400
greens that the guys in the thirties and forties and

789
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,320
fifties played on. And they just get make the golf

790
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,360
course fast and it's great for television because there's the

791
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,079
zillion birdies and so forth. But what they've done is

792
00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:24,400
they've taken the shot making out of the game, even

793
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,800
the ball. You know, it's hard to move the ball

794
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:30,599
left to right or right to left now purposely, I

795
00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:35,039
should say. And so you know, it's a shame. I

796
00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:37,079
think it's a shame in a way because they've made

797
00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:42,599
a lot of great golf courses that were tremendous courses

798
00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:45,639
to play, and they've kind of made them obsolete because

799
00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:47,480
of what they've done with the equipment.

800
00:42:49,079 --> 00:42:51,159
Speaker 1: Well, and the other thing that kind of makes me

801
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,360
crazy is there customize these courses for a tournament that

802
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,000
may happen once a year at best, or once every

803
00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:02,920
five or six years, and so that means they're customizing

804
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:06,440
the course for a point one of the amount of

805
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,679
golfers that are going to play that course, but it

806
00:43:08,679 --> 00:43:09,719
gets TV exposure.

807
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,159
Speaker 2: So that's one of the things that irritates me more.

808
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,039
You know, I have a lot of clients that belong

809
00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:19,920
to very posh golf courses, and these courses are all

810
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,159
everyone's looking to get more members. So what do they do, Well,

811
00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:25,559
we've got to get a younger group and you know

812
00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:30,079
that the membership's three or four hundred thousand dollars. Not

813
00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:32,079
too many young people that have that kind of money

814
00:43:32,119 --> 00:43:34,599
to throw around, but that's what they get in their heads.

815
00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:35,960
So now they put a set up what they call

816
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,440
the championship teas, and they're so far back on the whole.

817
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,519
The average guy out there is in the late sixties

818
00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:46,000
and early seventies and they can't hit it out of

819
00:43:46,039 --> 00:43:49,519
their shadow. So what are they doing? You know, instead

820
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:53,440
of setting up teas for your membership, if you've got

821
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:57,039
a lot of guys that are seventy, you're upteas and

822
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,239
especially the ladies sees should should correspond to the distance

823
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,280
that they those people hit the ball so that they're

824
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,039
in the game. You know, many years ago I did

825
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,199
the mixed team Championship, and when we were figuring this

826
00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:14,159
thing out, we went we looked at the two averages

827
00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:18,119
of ladies and men, and the ladies needed a seventy

828
00:44:18,119 --> 00:44:20,800
five yard advantage off the tee because we had to

829
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,840
take in consideration the second shot, not just the first shot,

830
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,639
of course, So if man, if the average guy hit

831
00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:30,400
it a drive and eight iron, we wanted the same

832
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,639
for the gals. You can't get it exact, but we

833
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,039
wanted to be close. You go on golf courses today

834
00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:38,400
and you'll see the men's tees and you see the

835
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,920
ladies sees maybe ten fifteen yards maybe twenty years forward.

836
00:44:42,559 --> 00:44:45,079
That's just insane. And you got these gals out there,

837
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,760
they're beating driver three wood with no chance of getting here,

838
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,800
and they're hitting five round on the third shot on

839
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,519
the par four. That takes the fun out of the game.

840
00:44:53,599 --> 00:44:56,599
It is an unfair challenge. It's an unfair challenge.

841
00:44:56,639 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: Well, I think that was the whole point of play

842
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,480
it forward, right exactly.

843
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:03,639
Speaker 2: If you want to give people back into the game,

844
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,880
they've got to be able to I'm not saying make

845
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,000
the golf courses easy. I'm just saying make them fair

846
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,320
for the for the person that's playing right. And you

847
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,079
can't do it exact, but you can do a lot

848
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:17,039
better job that's being done. I can tell you that.

849
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,519
And if and if Joe Blower his wife can every

850
00:45:20,519 --> 00:45:23,039
now and then get in the low eighties and and

851
00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:26,880
hit the green in regulation changes everything in their mindset.

852
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,440
But if it's if they're out there and they're shooting

853
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,079
in the hundreds and it's arduous. They're not going to

854
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:34,400
want to do this all the time now, so it

855
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:37,159
just takes it deflaces everybody. You know, we all have

856
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:37,679
an ego.

857
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's not even call them the ladies teath

858
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:42,320
Let's just call them the forward teas.

859
00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 2: Right forward.

860
00:45:44,559 --> 00:45:48,320
Speaker 1: Sure, you know it's like I don't I don't like

861
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,559
like I'm usually the long driver when when I'm playing

862
00:45:51,599 --> 00:45:54,039
with my group, but it doesn't mean I'm scoring better

863
00:45:54,079 --> 00:45:56,039
than anybody else. I can hit the ball farther, but

864
00:45:56,159 --> 00:45:59,559
not with my irons as much. And I think the

865
00:45:59,599 --> 00:46:02,719
whole kind of played forward is that, like the pros,

866
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:06,360
you should have an eight iron or less for your

867
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:07,119
second shot.

868
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 2: So absolutely up. Let's just say you're a short hitter. Okay,

869
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,880
so a short hitter, you should probably be hitting a

870
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,960
drive and maybe a five iron rescue club or six

871
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,440
iron rescue club. But when you can't reach the green

872
00:46:24,519 --> 00:46:28,039
in two on any part four, then you're hitting too

873
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:30,480
far back that the tea isn't right for you. You've

874
00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:34,880
got to move up. And the golf courses, they talk

875
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,320
about it all the time, but no one really scientifically

876
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:41,039
goes on that golf course and measure the golf course

877
00:46:41,079 --> 00:46:43,880
out and then charts. Okay, this is where mister and

878
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,280
missus Jones are going to hit the golf ball and

879
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,280
then intelligently put team teas down and make those teas

880
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,599
not afterthoughts, make them actually a team ground for mister

881
00:46:54,639 --> 00:46:57,760
and missus Jones. And I promise you if they would

882
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,760
do that, you see more people smiling when they came

883
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,679
off the golf course instead of frustrating or just feeding

884
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,039
like I'm old. I know in my own case, I

885
00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:09,280
was a very long hitter of the golf ball and

886
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,119
not a big guy, but I always could really clock it.

887
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:16,920
Now that I'm eight oer, which I can't believe, but

888
00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:20,119
I am, I can't hit it that anymore. So you

889
00:47:20,159 --> 00:47:23,599
know my best drive is two thirty two forty sometimes.

890
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,039
Speaker 1: Wow, that's still pretty good.

891
00:47:27,159 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 2: I still hit it out there, pretty good for an

892
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,199
old guy. But still, you know, when I go on

893
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,320
and play with my students, you know, I feel like

894
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,000
I should put a tap of a dress on or

895
00:47:37,039 --> 00:47:40,519
something because they're popping at fifty sixty seventy yards past

896
00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:41,719
me with no problem.

897
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the age of their great grandfather exactly.

898
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 2: So if I can't, I can't compete with that because

899
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,079
they're longer with their iron, they're longer with they would

900
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:55,280
come on. So I have to play up. And there's

901
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,800
nothing wrong with that. For god, I mean, that's that's

902
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,400
what I'm saying. Instead of building championship teas to bring

903
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,920
more people at your golf course, set your golf course

904
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,079
up so people can play it. It's still a challenge,

905
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:09,960
but if you have a good day, you get a

906
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,199
good scorer. For some people, even when they have a

907
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,800
good day, they can't get a good score because of

908
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:15,920
the distance factor.

909
00:48:16,199 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: You know.

910
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:21,679
Speaker 2: It's very It really is obsessed me, especially for the gals.

911
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:27,239
They honestly, I think they're No one wants to say it,

912
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,639
but they're kind of an afterthought when they come to

913
00:48:30,679 --> 00:48:32,760
the designing of the golf course or the placing of

914
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,039
the teas, and so they're just an afterthought. It's it's wrong,

915
00:48:36,159 --> 00:48:36,800
It really is.

916
00:48:38,079 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had a thought and no, I lost it.

917
00:48:43,039 --> 00:48:45,360
I was gonna say something about, well, we.

918
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,199
Speaker 2: Were talking about it's me I get on tangents.

919
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: Oh we both do, don't we both?

920
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 2: Well?

921
00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:53,639
Speaker 1: Oh, no, I remember. What I was going to say

922
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,039
is that how many times I've played with gentlemen who

923
00:48:56,039 --> 00:48:59,519
are in their seventies who can't hit the ball more

924
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:02,559
than a hundred fifty yards, except they're playing bogie golf

925
00:49:02,599 --> 00:49:05,079
because they hit it dead straight and they can put

926
00:49:05,639 --> 00:49:07,719
you know, So it's not about the big hits. Just

927
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,320
keep it in the fairway and getting the close there's.

928
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 2: No question about it. But those people to play a

929
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,920
lot of golf, and either they're blessed or they practice

930
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,280
a short game a lot. But I mean, the average

931
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,199
lady and man don't put that much time into practice.

932
00:49:23,199 --> 00:49:26,880
They'll take a lesson here or there. I'm just I'm

933
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,119
an advocate of it isn't so much a play up,

934
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,760
but to set the golf course up to accommodate what

935
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:39,519
your general membership is. Not the one guy that colocks

936
00:49:39,559 --> 00:49:42,320
it or not the one guy that can hit it

937
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:45,199
one hundred yards, but that middle range group, and you'd

938
00:49:45,199 --> 00:49:50,159
make your golf course make everybody happier. Yeah, And unfortunately,

939
00:49:51,199 --> 00:49:54,400
unfortunately the way they set the tour up, it's the

940
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,719
opposite of that. It's all it's all predicated on distance.

941
00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:03,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, we have so many more clubs

942
00:50:03,079 --> 00:50:05,480
that I'd like to cover about, you know, taking that

943
00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:08,360
to the next level, like the sand wedge, your long irons,

944
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,039
your hybrids, your fairway drivers or fairway metals or fairway woods,

945
00:50:12,039 --> 00:50:14,000
whatever you want to call them, and your driver. So

946
00:50:14,159 --> 00:50:17,320
can we do as we have done many times? Can

947
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:20,960
we do part two of this for next week's episode?

948
00:50:22,039 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 2: Sure? I'd love to. Uh, you got to put a

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module on me at times because.

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00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:30,079
Speaker 1: No, no, instead of the muzzle, I'm just gonna let

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00:50:30,119 --> 00:50:33,000
you go longer. We're just gonna go on longer. That's

952
00:50:33,039 --> 00:50:36,559
all all right. So that's great. We're gonna do part

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two on this and continue this conversation of how you

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00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,960
can take your game to the next level, one club

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at a time with Tony Manzoni. Tony, thanks so much

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for your cooperation on this.

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Speaker 2: It's always my pleasure.