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True Murder with your host 31 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:33.239 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:46.480 Good Evening, a former United Church minister massacres his family. 33 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:49.719 What led to this act of femicide and why were 34 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:54.519 his victims forgotten? On May second, nineteen sixty three, Robert Killen's, 35 00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.799 a former United Church minister, slaughtered every woman in his 36 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.040 family but one. She and her brother lived to tell 37 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:04.079 the story of what motivated a talented man who had 38 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:07.719 been widely admired a scholar and graduate from Queen's University 39 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.800 to stalk and terrorize the women in his family for 40 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.919 almost twenty years and then murder them. Through extensive oral histories, 41 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.199 Cook and Carson painstakingly traced the causes of a femicide 42 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:22.520 in which four women and two unborn babies were murdered 43 00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:26.680 over the course of one bloody evening. While they situate 44 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.199 this murderous rampage in the literature on domestic abuse and 45 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:33.800 mass murders. They also explore how the two traumatized child 46 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:38.280 survivors found their way back to health and happiness. Told 47 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:42.759 through vivid first person accounts, this family memoir explores how 48 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.240 a murderer was created. The book that we're featuring this 49 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:50.879 evening is the Castleton Massacre Survivors' Stories of the Killin's 50 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:55.639 Femicide with my special guests, authors Sharon Ann Cook and 51 00:02:55.759 --> 00:02:58.360 Margaret Carson. Welcome to the program, and thank you so 52 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:02.000 much for this interview. Sharon Anna Cook and Margaret Carson, 53 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.840 Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, and congratulations 54 00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:11.599 on this incredibly personal and important book. Let's first talk. Sharon, 55 00:03:12.120 --> 00:03:16.039 you write the prologue, how you became involved, how you 56 00:03:16.199 --> 00:03:20.879 learned about this incredible case and these murders, and then 57 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:24.639 tell us about the genesis of this book together the 58 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:28.360 letters that were part of that tell us how this 59 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:29.439 book evolved. 60 00:03:29.560 --> 00:03:32.639 Well, thanks very much for this, Dan. I should say 61 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:37.159 first of all that in order to maintain voice in 62 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:39.360 the book, I am the writer of the book, but 63 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:42.199 there would have been no book at all had Margaret 64 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:46.400 not been there. Every step of the way researching with 65 00:03:46.599 --> 00:03:50.719 me and gathering oral histories from herself and from her brother. 66 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:55.080 So the genesis of this book came, I think from 67 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:59.719 two sources. One is that Margaret and I were raised 68 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:02.759 again from the time that she was twelve when she 69 00:04:02.919 --> 00:04:06.680 was orphaned by this massacre. She was raised by my 70 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:11.560 parents in our family, and we began talking about this 71 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:15.759 terrible event in her life and in Brian's life, her brother. 72 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:19.120 The first day that she was with our family, we 73 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:22.199 shared a bedroom, and so we would often talk about 74 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:25.199 this before going to sleep at night, and I think 75 00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:28.240 very early on it occurred to both of us that 76 00:04:28.759 --> 00:04:30.959 we should write this down, we should somehow get this 77 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:34.759 into book form. But of course this was a traumatic event, 78 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:39.199 and it was many years, almost sixty years before we 79 00:04:39.319 --> 00:04:44.519 did that because of the depth of sadness trauma that 80 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:48.959 both children experienced. The second source for it was my son, 81 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:52.160 who was an historian and a writer, and he felt 82 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.519 very strongly that this was something that we needed to 83 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:59.120 do at this point before anybody else died. In that 84 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:02.879 most of the books was based on oral testimony oral 85 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:06.399 history from either those who are participated or those who 86 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:08.959 were very close to the event. Through his urging and 87 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:11.800 his wife's urging as well. We took this up as 88 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.680 a kind of COVID project. Some of the work was 89 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.560 done prior to COVID, but a lot of it occurred 90 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:20.920 during COVID as well. So that's where the where the 91 00:05:20.920 --> 00:05:23.839 genesis came from. I would say, Peg, would you like 92 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:24.759 to throw in on that? 93 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:29.399 I think it is. The book is something that we 94 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:31.519 have thought about for a long time. It took me 95 00:05:31.680 --> 00:05:35.399 though a while before I decided that I was all in. 96 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:38.319 As you know, I had to wait for my brother 97 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:42.480 to be all in. Also, this was something that was 98 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:49.000 so shrouded with secrecy and silence that it wasn't until 99 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:53.480 relatively recent years that we had the words to describe 100 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:59.759 what happened. These words would be stalking, femicide, and I 101 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:04.560 would say women's shelters. Suddenly, as these words developed in 102 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.759 recent years, we had words to use to describe what 103 00:06:07.959 --> 00:06:10.480 happened to us. And I don't think we had the 104 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:13.839 proper words as children. We knew what had happened, but 105 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:16.839 we couldn't put it into any kind of perspective. We 106 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:20.439 were still dealing with the grief for decades. For decades, 107 00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:23.920 you don't give that up. And yes, speaking about it 108 00:06:24.120 --> 00:06:29.000 over those years helped to clarify and put into place 109 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:32.920 the pieces of the puzzle that added up to us 110 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:37.959 somewhat understanding what happened within my family dynamics. And as 111 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:41.519 you know Dan after reading this, it wasn't simply straightforward. 112 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:45.360 It was complicated with many avenues, and it took a 113 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:48.720 lot of discussion to get there. And guests, does that 114 00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:49.959 help Sharon. 115 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:54.920 Yes, that's very helpful. Pig. As always, I would second 116 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.360 everything that you said there, and I do want to 117 00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:02.879 underscore the centrality of Braan's involvement in the process of 118 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:06.439 research and in writing as well. Brian was a ten 119 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:10.319 year old child when this occurred, and he was not 120 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:15.199 as centrally placed in the family structure in terms of 121 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:19.360 the lead up to the massacre as you were Margaret. 122 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:21.360 I've said in the book that Margaret was really a 123 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:26.920 lynch pin. She was present and participated in every major 124 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:31.800 event that occurred in the lead up to the killings, 125 00:07:32.120 --> 00:07:36.480 and she therefore had a very important perspective, better I 126 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:39.839 think than almost anyone else's. And she was trusted by 127 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:43.399 both the perpetrator and by her mother, so that she 128 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:46.160 was given a great deal of authority as a twelve 129 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:49.759 year old child to try to bring peace to a 130 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:53.279 situation when Robert was beating up her sister, for example, 131 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:56.120 when Robert was threatening her mother. She was involved in 132 00:07:56.279 --> 00:07:59.639 all of these. So I want to emphasize how important 133 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.240 Margaret was, But I also it is important to remember 134 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:08.600 how central to the period after both Margaret and Brian 135 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:12.240 joined my family in nineteen sixty three, how important Brian 136 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:14.800 was in the process. Brian became a medical doctor and 137 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:19.240 so he has a very particular view of what happened 138 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.560 from his adult perspective. He's now retired from that, but 139 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:25.839 he is a very capable family doctor, and he looked 140 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:29.160 at this from a perspective that neither Margaret nor I did. 141 00:08:29.600 --> 00:08:34.840 His oral histories are arresting and in the moment as well, 142 00:08:34.879 --> 00:08:38.039 which is a pretty extraordinary thing sixty years afterwards for 143 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:41.559 a child to be able to remember as accurately as 144 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:45.440 he did the emotional import of events and also what 145 00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.320 he was thinking. This was true both during the mascer 146 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:50.799 itself and in the period following that. So I do 147 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.320 I want to underscore Brian's role and his support throughout 148 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:58.600 this process. He has not chosen to be a co 149 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:03.279 author in it couldn't have done this project without Brian's involvement. 150 00:09:04.279 --> 00:09:08.240 Now let's get to the murderer himself. He was born 151 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:13.360 in nineteen seven, Robert Ivan, And so tell us about 152 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:15.799 his family life and his siblings. 153 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:17.840 Do you want me to start with this and Margaret 154 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:18.600 doing okay? 155 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.360 His early family life, his early family life, yes, yes. 156 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:28.519 So Robert was born into a typical Ontario farm family 157 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:33.840 for the period, a relatively poor family. He had two siblings, 158 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.200 an older sister and a younger brother, and his younger 159 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:39.519 brother was my father. So we need to say right 160 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:44.799 from the start that I was related to Robert through 161 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:49.240 my father, while Margaret was not related. She lived under 162 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:52.399 his shadow for the first twelve years of her life, 163 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.799 and very much so during the period of the massacre, 164 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:59.240 a tremendous shadow that overcasts the next few years of 165 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:02.200 her life. He wasn't related to him. He was not 166 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:05.440 her father, as is often thought and was often reported 167 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.120 in the newspapers of the time. So Robert with his family, 168 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:13.840 the family moved west and homesteaded, as many families did 169 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:17.639 in that period, to get free land, to work that land, 170 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:19.679 and then to sell it for a profit. And that 171 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:23.120 was exactly what his father did. His father continued doing 172 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:25.840 that through the rest of his adult life, buying farms, 173 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:28.679 improving the farms, selling them, very much as people do 174 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.759 today in flipping houses, but in his case it was 175 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.639 improving the land. So Robert had a typical farm based childhood. 176 00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:42.039 He was a talented child from the beginning, and he 177 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:44.799 was really the star of the family. He was the 178 00:10:44.919 --> 00:10:49.320 child that his parents expected would change the world, and 179 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.200 as a result, he came to think of himself as 180 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:56.919 changing the world. The mother definitely favored Robert over the 181 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:00.679 other children, and we talk about this at considerable length 182 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:03.879 because it helps to explain the shadow under which my 183 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:06.559 own father, who was the youngest child in that family, 184 00:11:06.840 --> 00:11:10.600 lived As a child, he couldn't compete with his older brother, 185 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:14.000 and he didn't try to compete. He admired him tremendously 186 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:17.200 and loved him dearly, And it helps to explain one 187 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:19.960 of the main reasons why I became involved in the 188 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:23.559 project myself, which was to help to explain to myself 189 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:27.159 why my father reacted as he did to his older 190 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.759 brother's massacre and was never able really to blame him 191 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.679 for what he did. This hey, in this act the 192 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:38.679 family prospered as homesteaders. It set them up for a 193 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:43.440 solid middle class life once they were back in Ontario. 194 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:47.919 The older sister, Gladys, became a noted water colorist as 195 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:51.320 she was an art teacher, maybe the worst teacher ever. 196 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:55.679 She seems to have loathed children and the other teachers 197 00:11:55.679 --> 00:11:58.759 of whom she worked. Very frustrated woman, but a very 198 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:02.639 talented woman. Robert was, about any doubt as well talented. 199 00:12:02.840 --> 00:12:07.559 He began university in nineteen twenty four. He won scholarships 200 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:12.039 at university the almost He also almost failed out in 201 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.200 his first year, so he had some difficulty adapting. And 202 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.960 the third child, my father, was also a talented student 203 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:22.159 and also university educated, which is very unusual in the 204 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:24.840 nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties, Margaret, do you want to 205 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:28.639 add to that his background, the family orientation. 206 00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:32.919 Well, when my mother married him, he was well into 207 00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.879 his thirties and she had just turned eighteen, so she 208 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:41.200 was very young, and I'm sure this seemed quite romantic 209 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:43.639 to her. She had a mind of her own and 210 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:46.559 she loved life, and she was a very happy person, 211 00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:49.960 so I think he was very attracted to her at 212 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.039 the time. I know that these that she did not 213 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:55.799 know what she was getting into it, as is often 214 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:59.039 the story, off in the case, and spent a few 215 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:04.039 years i'm sure sorting it out as he failed at 216 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:08.000 being a minister for the United Church and eventually quit 217 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:11.840 that before she left him with their first child, their 218 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:15.679 only child, and that would be Pearl, and he decided 219 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.600 I think he decided to isolate her by moving her 220 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:23.360 to homestead places, as was done when he was growing up, 221 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:27.519 the homestead idea of moving out west and finding land 222 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:30.879 to develop. But he did isolate her at the time 223 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:34.559 and cut her off from her family and friends. Again, 224 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:38.159 that's a typical story, isn't it to have power over 225 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:42.120 someone to isolate them. So back to Robert would say 226 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:45.840 that he became obsessed first with my mother, and she 227 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:48.320 tried to get away from him for years. I don't 228 00:13:48.360 --> 00:13:51.840 know where his obsession came from, but I liken it 229 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:55.600 to what what Sharon just said, his ability to have 230 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:59.440 a kind of charisma over people, his brother, his sister, 231 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.879 people that he met, and my mother, but it became 232 00:14:03.360 --> 00:14:07.759 a really negative, malevolent kind of charisma after a while, 233 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:11.679 and that kind of power, you know, I was thinking 234 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:15.559 about this. I don't think that I have personally met 235 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.799 another person and I'm over seventy in my life that 236 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:27.600 compares to him with that kind of malevolent power and charisma. 237 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:29.080 Have you shared. 238 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:31.879 I don't know, but but neither you nor I have 239 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:36.279 concerted with other mass murderers have ways all. But I 240 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.600 think you make a very important point in saying that 241 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:43.960 there was something very attractive about this man he was. 242 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:46.480 One of the things that we describe in the book 243 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:49.399 are the ways in which he was similar to other 244 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:52.120 mass murders and the ways in which he was different. 245 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.039 And I'm struck by his difference given what you've just 246 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:58.720 said there, Margaret, with regards to the fact that people 247 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:01.879 were deeply impressed by he was a well spoken man. 248 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.120 He was a well read man, as you would expect 249 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:07.080 for somebody who had been to university. And he had 250 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:12.399 this dark charisma that you have described. He especially had 251 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:16.279 that in the rural districts where he lived, where he 252 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:19.480 chose to live, And the point you make about his 253 00:15:19.639 --> 00:15:25.159 isolating Florence, his young, very attractive young wife, is I 254 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:29.240 think important to remember that he chose settings in which 255 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:32.000 to live. First as a United Church minister, he lived 256 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:37.039 in four different parishes, thrived in. None of them left 257 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:38.799 in the middle of the night. For most of them, 258 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.799 spend his time arguing with people demanding more money in 259 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:46.360 the depth of the Great Depression. So he lived there 260 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:49.399 in rural settings, but then he chose rural settings also 261 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:52.279 after he had left the ministry. The other thing that 262 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.200 occurs to me from what you were just saying, is 263 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:58.000 that we can trace some of his characteristics that I 264 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:02.519 think make him common with other mass murderers right from 265 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:06.240 those early years in university. He appears to have suffered 266 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:09.759 from depression for his entire adult life. We don't know 267 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.879 why that was. We don't know what the sources of that. 268 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:15.919 I mean, he was never assessed. You would never ask 269 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:18.440 the United Church minister to be assessed for depression, but 270 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.240 he acted as if he had been depressed. Part of 271 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.960 this were the enormous, outsized expectations of this man that 272 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.600 his mother and family had placed upon him, and other 273 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:32.120 people as well. But it had also to do with 274 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.840 the fact that he made poor choices, and once he'd 275 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.360 made one poor choice, he would make a whole series 276 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.480 of other poor choices, and that of course resulted in 277 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.480 a lot of frustration for him. He was a very 278 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:47.279 frustrated person and that feeds depression, so we know that 279 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:51.440 that was a characteristic as well. The isolation that he 280 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:55.720 exposed Florence to was characteristic for him as well. He 281 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:59.279 was an isolated individual, and he was isolated, we think 282 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:04.279 conscious in order to not have authorities checking the kinds 283 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:07.000 of things that he was doing, the kinds of abuse 284 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.359 that he was meeting out, especially to Florence and to Pearl. 285 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.920 And part of it also was one of those self 286 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.880 fulfilling prophecies that when you become a kind of strange person, 287 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.920 you are isolated, not many people do want to interact 288 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:22.839 with you. And it was quite clear to us that 289 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:26.680 he frightened people in a very similar way to what 290 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:30.839 we now are reading about the Nova Scotia murderer killing 291 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:33.839 the twenty two innocent people. This was a frightening man, 292 00:17:34.079 --> 00:17:36.880 and so was Robert a frightening them. So a number 293 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:40.359 of the characteristics were quite common, and they were deeply 294 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.200 rooted in his personal psyche, but also in the family 295 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:47.480 and dynamics. One point I would just make in passing 296 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:50.240 that I think makes the book unusual is that we 297 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:54.559 do a deep die into what that formative period in 298 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:57.720 his life was like, this is rarely possible with mass 299 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:01.079 murderers because most of those people have covered their tracks. 300 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.359 They you don't know what things were like for them. 301 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:07.599 We do know, and we know that his early years, 302 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.640 including his university years, were not years of privation. They 303 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:15.079 were not years during which he had a good excuse 304 00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:19.640 for being depressed or for you know, being angry with people, 305 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.880 his developing anger. It was his personal psychology that caused 306 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:27.400 him the misery that he imposed on others and that 307 00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:30.200 he lived through himself. This was not a man whose 308 00:18:30.279 --> 00:18:33.640 family background would explain why he became a mass murderer. 309 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:38.400 You right that he treated Florence like a child. When 310 00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:41.559 they first were married, he was much more educated and 311 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:44.799 she was in experience. But as time went on, many 312 00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:50.160 years went on, Florence eventually gained assertiveness and confidence, and 313 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:55.519 also that she was refusing and rejecting many of the 314 00:18:55.559 --> 00:18:59.799 things that Robert had to say. Let's talk about Pearl 315 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.480 and his relationship with Pearl. 316 00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:06.920 Yes, his relationship with Pearl was I would say it 317 00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:11.680 was so pressured. He wanted to exert his power and 318 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:16.160 his influence over Pearl every minute of her life, in 319 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.079 everything that she did. He would sit down with her 320 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:21.799 in the early years to help her do her homework, 321 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.200 but she had to be perfect, and as a younger child, 322 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:28.640 often I would watch this. He was simply not interested 323 00:19:28.680 --> 00:19:31.359 in whatever I was doing, because it made it more 324 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:35.839 stark that I was watching him ask her to do 325 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:39.000 her homework so that she made no mistakes. She could 326 00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:42.319 make no mistakes, So he was obsessed with Pearl. Looking 327 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:46.000 back now, as a mother and I have children and grandchildren, 328 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:50.759 I can't imagine what she was feeling throughout those years. 329 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.680 To have her father, who she loved and she wanted 330 00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.839 to impress, and she wanted to make him happy, to 331 00:19:58.279 --> 00:20:01.440 have this pressure on her all the time, and we 332 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.240 see what happened. She couldn't leave fast enough when she 333 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:07.400 became a teenager. We see what the result was that 334 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:11.279 when she could assert her own power and an attempt 335 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:14.680 to leave. I'm sure that with children you never stop 336 00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:18.680 wanting to get the approval of a parent, But for her, 337 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:24.079 when she decided to date, her life just became a nightmare. 338 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.519 It became a nightmare for her. And I can't explain 339 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:30.759 his obsession with her, because I think that he transferred 340 00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:34.559 his obsession about my mother to his daughter and you 341 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.920 asked the question. I think before or someone commented about 342 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:40.960 him living outside our door. Remember that this was a 343 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:44.680 very well spoken man who could talk his way into anything. 344 00:20:44.359 --> 00:20:45.200 If he wanted to. 345 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.960 And I'm sure that he said, Look, I'll just live 346 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.039 nearby and I'll help raise pearl, I'll help drive the 347 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:55.079 kids to school, I'll help with things until it wasn't 348 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:56.839 help until. 349 00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:57.799 It was violence. 350 00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:58.599 Did that help? 351 00:20:58.640 --> 00:20:59.000 Answer? 352 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:00.640 Is that what you looking for? 353 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:01.480 Yes? 354 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:05.799 With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 355 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:09.400 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. 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We're prohibited by W eight team plus 366 00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.119 terms and conditions applag see website for details. 367 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:34.039 Could I just break in here for a moment and 368 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.799 I just want to say that maybe we should clarify 369 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:39.319 the family structures here just for a moment. 370 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:39.960 Yes. 371 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:45.400 So Robert and Florence had one child, and that was Pearl. 372 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:50.039 Florence managed to escape from Robert when they lived in BC. 373 00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:54.319 She took the train across Canada. She ended up in Colburn, Ontario, 374 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:58.359 and very soon after arriving there, she met the local lawyer, 375 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:02.720 Ad Hall and they began living together. Ady Hall was 376 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:07.559 then Margaret and Brian and Patsy's father. So that's why 377 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:09.599 I said at the beginning that Margaret is in no 378 00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:13.519 way related to Robert. She was not his child. And 379 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.720 one of the results was this of this was that 380 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:22.039 Robert was seemingly quite comfortable with both Margaret and Brian, 381 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.599 and probably eventually he would have been comfortable with Patsy too, 382 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:27.599 had she been a little bit older. And that's one 383 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.720 of the reasons that Margaret is such an important eye 384 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:35.400 witness for almost everything that happened. Everything is significant that 385 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:40.559 happened in the relationship with Robert during the murders, et cetera. 386 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:44.039 Because she and Brian, who were kind of a tag team, 387 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.960 Margaret leading the leading the troop and Brian behind her 388 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.440 and backing her up. The two of them were the 389 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:55.839 great observers of this. They were children they were involved 390 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:59.319 in a number of the fracases, but Robert at times 391 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:03.240 seemed not to care what they thought about things. He 392 00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:05.839 would take them on trips with him. They were kind 393 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:10.240 of a buffer zone between himself and the world. And 394 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.400 the result of that, as I say, is that you've 395 00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:19.119 got two now adults, senior citizens now who saw virtually 396 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:22.359 everything that was going on, and who saw it more clearly, 397 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:24.480 very likely than the participants did. 398 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:27.640 It was an odd kind of relationship. I'll just add 399 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:31.319 that I think he was both disinterested in how we 400 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:35.000 would turn out, but we were used as ponds to 401 00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.599