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<v Speaker 6>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 6>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 6>written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every

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<v Speaker 6>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 6>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 6>host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.

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<v Speaker 7>Good Evening, Watch Me Die is a first hand account

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<v Speaker 7>of Ohio's death row and the state's execution process. Unlike

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<v Speaker 7>any other doctor Kimberland, a trained clinical psychologist and professor

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<v Speaker 7>of psychology, goes beyond the prison walls and into the

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<v Speaker 7>world of death row inmates, no bars, no shackles, and

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<v Speaker 7>no chains. Kimberland spends time one on one with some

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<v Speaker 7>of Ohio's worst killers to learn about their life on

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<v Speaker 7>death row. Then he watches them die. You will see

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<v Speaker 7>how these inmates think as Kimberland not only spends time

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<v Speaker 7>interviewing them, but also eats meals with them and, in

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<v Speaker 7>some cases if the last person to speak to them

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<v Speaker 7>before they are executed. You'll also be walked through the

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<v Speaker 7>full execution process, starting from when the inmate is placed

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<v Speaker 7>on suicide watch and going until they are pronounced dead

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<v Speaker 7>on the execution table. You will see the flaws in

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<v Speaker 7>the system and be able to judge for yourself if

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<v Speaker 7>the death penalty as it is utilized today is really

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<v Speaker 7>worth pursuing. This book promises to take you into the

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<v Speaker 7>depths of death Row and into the minds of the

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<v Speaker 7>killers like no one else has ever been able to

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<v Speaker 7>do before. You will see their artwork, their writings, and

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<v Speaker 7>their mindset as they prepare for their final days on

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<v Speaker 7>this planet. The book that we're featuring this evening is

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<v Speaker 7>Watch Me Die with my guest author and professor, doctor

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<v Speaker 7>Bill Kimberland. Welcome to the program, and thank you for

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<v Speaker 7>agreeing to this interview, doctor Bill Kimberland.

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you for having me on here. It's an honor, Thank.

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<v Speaker 7>You, Thank you very much. This is an incredible, like

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<v Speaker 7>I said when I spoke to you earlier, incredible perspective

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<v Speaker 7>that it's just amazing the information that you have presented

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<v Speaker 7>here in this book. Let's talk about your background as

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<v Speaker 7>a psychologist before we talk about why you decided to

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<v Speaker 7>study death row. What is your background before you got

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<v Speaker 7>to that point, and then you can tell us how

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<v Speaker 7>you came to that decision that you wanted study death row.

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<v Speaker 7>Tell us why, but give us your background before that

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<v Speaker 7>that prepared you to even be in a position that

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<v Speaker 7>you made the query on death row. So tell us

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<v Speaker 7>how your background that puts you in a position to

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<v Speaker 7>ask the question to want to study death row.

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<v Speaker 5>Sure. So when I first graduated with a bachelor's degree

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<v Speaker 5>in criminal justice and sociology, and I became an adult

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<v Speaker 5>Probation pro officer here in Ohio, and I always knew

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<v Speaker 5>I wanted to continue my education so while I was

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<v Speaker 5>a probation pro officer, I received my master's degree from

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<v Speaker 5>Heidelberg University in counseling, so I entered the counseling arena

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<v Speaker 5>at the same time as being a probation officer. But

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<v Speaker 5>what I always planned on doing was becoming a college professor,

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<v Speaker 5>and I always knew that it would take years to

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<v Speaker 5>get to that level because of the degrees that you'd

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<v Speaker 5>normally have to obtain, which would be at the doctorate level.

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<v Speaker 5>So when I was doing the counseling and the probation,

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<v Speaker 5>I was constantly working on my degrees, and I eventually

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<v Speaker 5>obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology. So it's all of

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<v Speaker 5>the human sciences social sciences background, which is what I've

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<v Speaker 5>always been interested in, and I've always interacted with well,

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<v Speaker 5>and mostly of those that are at risk. The probationers

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<v Speaker 5>are all fellon convicted of felons, and then my drug

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<v Speaker 5>and alcohol counseling days with those individuals, and then moving

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<v Speaker 5>into the clinical psychology more into the study of the mind.

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<v Speaker 5>And one thing I always told myself was I would

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<v Speaker 5>never be the type of professor that would teach just

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<v Speaker 5>book smarts only, meaning I wanted to be able to

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<v Speaker 5>learn as much as I could first hand. And some

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<v Speaker 5>of the biggest debated issues in a lot of the

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<v Speaker 5>social classes are things such as the legalization of drugs

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<v Speaker 5>here in America, our gun laws, whether or not we

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<v Speaker 5>need to relax them, abortion rights, and then of course

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<v Speaker 5>capital punishment. And I've been fortunate enough to travel to

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<v Speaker 5>a number of different countries to see what their drug

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<v Speaker 5>laws are like, and growing up around guns and things

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<v Speaker 5>of that nature, I knew enough about those areas. But

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<v Speaker 5>when it came to capital punishment, everything that I had

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<v Speaker 5>read literature wise pointed me in the direction to find

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<v Speaker 5>out that none of the authors had ever really visited

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<v Speaker 5>death Row, let alone witnessed an execution. So I thought

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<v Speaker 5>this is a good starting point to make sure that

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<v Speaker 5>I didn't fall in that trap of only teaching what

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<v Speaker 5>I've read. So then I dove into death Row head first,

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<v Speaker 5>I guess, to see what I could learn, and then

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<v Speaker 5>doing so, I just happened to call the Attorney General's

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<v Speaker 5>office at the time, and I asked them to put

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<v Speaker 5>me on a list or in the lottery to witness

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<v Speaker 5>an execution, because I, like everyone else, had no idea

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<v Speaker 5>how this process worked, and they hung up on me,

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<v Speaker 5>and I thought, well, that was kind of rude. So

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<v Speaker 5>I called back and I said, you know, I'm hoping

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<v Speaker 5>that we just got disconnected, but I'm really serious about

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<v Speaker 5>getting in to see an execution. I teach on this

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<v Speaker 5>stuff and I need to know more about it. And

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<v Speaker 5>the young lady on the other end said, you know,

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<v Speaker 5>nobody can just witness an execution. The governor of Ohio,

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<v Speaker 5>I'd never witnessed one, the Attorney General's never witnessed one.

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<v Speaker 5>The Ohio Revised Code set forth the procedures in which

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<v Speaker 5>a person can witness an execution, and only three people

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<v Speaker 5>on each side can ever witness an execution out of

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<v Speaker 5>thirty million people in Ohio. So she said, But since

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<v Speaker 5>I've never been asked this question before, I'm going to

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<v Speaker 5>send you the law and the list of the people

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<v Speaker 5>that are scheduled to be executed in the state of

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<v Speaker 5>Ohio over the next year or two. See if you

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<v Speaker 5>can find any loopholes and have at it. So I

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<v Speaker 5>got the list, I got the law. I got together

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<v Speaker 5>with some attorney friends of mine that i'd always worked with,

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<v Speaker 5>one who's a judge now, and found some loopholes. Decided

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<v Speaker 5>to contact a couple of the inmates, and that's how

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<v Speaker 5>I became involved in death row. And it is just

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<v Speaker 5>mushroomed from there.

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<v Speaker 7>Now you mentioned that one of the key assets that

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<v Speaker 7>you did have was a personal personal friend, and then

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<v Speaker 7>that you mentioned now a judge Roger Bennett, and he

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<v Speaker 7>was assistant Accounty prosecutor and he was the person who

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<v Speaker 7>gave you the number of the Attorney General. So even

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<v Speaker 7>he didn't really know that how impossible. It seemed insurmountable,

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<v Speaker 7>you know, a task that you had to overcome. So

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<v Speaker 7>when you had this, there was only going to be

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<v Speaker 7>the strict criteria for anybody to be able to witness

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<v Speaker 7>this execution. How then did you go ahead? And you

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<v Speaker 7>talk about Roger Barnett and his connection again, if you

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<v Speaker 7>had a connection to an inmate, tell us some of

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<v Speaker 7>that criteria. Under those conditions you could get to witness

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<v Speaker 7>an execution.

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<v Speaker 5>And it was.

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<v Speaker 7>Luckily that through Roger Barnett you did get that opportunity.

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<v Speaker 7>So tell us how that worked with Roger.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, So Roger and I have been best of friends

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<v Speaker 5>for we grew up together and at the time he

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<v Speaker 5>was an assistant prosecutor. Has since been elected as Common

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<v Speaker 5>Police Court judge, and he said because he had worked

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<v Speaker 5>with the Attorney General so close, he gave me literally

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<v Speaker 5>the direct number at the time. It was Betty Montgomery.

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<v Speaker 5>So I had that contact number. And I was also

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<v Speaker 5>fortunate enough to know that one of the inmates that

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<v Speaker 5>was listed on the sheet that was given to me

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<v Speaker 5>given the dates of the executions, he happened to be

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<v Speaker 5>related to one Chris Newton by marriage and he said

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<v Speaker 5>that he could vouch for me if need be. So

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<v Speaker 5>I decided to write Chris Newton explaining who I was

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<v Speaker 5>and friends of Roger and he had. He decided to

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<v Speaker 5>write back. Chris was a very unique character when it

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<v Speaker 5>comes to somebody psychologically studying them, and one of the

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<v Speaker 5>first letters I got back was I would love for

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<v Speaker 5>you to come down and talk to me face to

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<v Speaker 5>face and in fact tell Roger I no longer want

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<v Speaker 5>to kill him, because they always wanted to kill Roger,

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<v Speaker 5>but I no longer want to kill him. So if

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<v Speaker 5>he wants to come down and visit me, he can

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<v Speaker 5>too before my execution. So I went down first, met

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<v Speaker 5>with him a couple of times, took Roger down. Next thing,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, Chris Newton actually asked me to be there

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<v Speaker 5>for his execution.

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<v Speaker 7>Wow. Now let's just go back a little bit, because

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<v Speaker 7>you do set the stage on on Ohio's uniqueness in

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<v Speaker 7>terms of how they You also mentioned in the book

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<v Speaker 7>if I'm not correct, did thirty three or thirty five

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<v Speaker 7>states still have the death penalty?

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<v Speaker 5>Correct? Thirty five states? It gets kind of confusing. Thirty

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<v Speaker 5>five states can enact the death penalty right now, thirty

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<v Speaker 5>three of those states have active death penalties. Being two

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<v Speaker 5>of those states they abolish the death penalty, but they

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<v Speaker 5>kept their death rows active. And then, of course, the

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<v Speaker 5>federal government here in the United States supersedes all of

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<v Speaker 5>our states constitutions. So in essence, you could be put

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<v Speaker 5>to death by the federal government if you're convicted of

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<v Speaker 5>a capital murder offense in a state that does not

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<v Speaker 5>have the death penalty, and it happens on federal property.

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<v Speaker 7>Right now, tell us about the unique Like I said,

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<v Speaker 7>you're not comparison comparing every other state in the United States,

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<v Speaker 7>but talk about what you saw as what you thought

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<v Speaker 7>was quite unique in the treatment of death row prisoners.

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<v Speaker 7>And also explain that the main locations in this is Chilicothe,

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<v Speaker 7>Chilicothe and also Lucasville, and tell us about their role

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<v Speaker 7>in this death penalty in terms of location.

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<v Speaker 5>Okay, well, when I first started, obviously my very first

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<v Speaker 5>trip to death Row, I was nervous as can be

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<v Speaker 5>because I did not know what to expect. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>it's not a very transparent area within our criminal justice system,

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<v Speaker 5>meaning that there's a lot of secretive stuff that goes

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<v Speaker 5>on with death Row. They just don't let the public

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<v Speaker 5>know a whole lot. So I was really going into

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<v Speaker 5>it blind, and once I got onto death Row, I

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00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:39.200
<v Speaker 5>was assuming, based on some of the TV shows that

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00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.000
<v Speaker 5>I had seen over the years, that these guys would

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00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.279
<v Speaker 5>be handcuffed and shackled, they'd be locked down in their

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00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.080
<v Speaker 5>cells twenty three hours a day, they'd pump sunlight into them,

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00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:51.120
<v Speaker 5>you know, everything like that. Lo and behold, I get

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<v Speaker 5>to death Row, which is now housed in Chillicothe, Ohio.

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<v Speaker 5>Prior to that, when I first started, we had two

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<v Speaker 5>different locations, one in Mansfield, Ohio and one in Youngstown, Ohio.

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<v Speaker 5>So when I started, I was actually going to two

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<v Speaker 5>different death rows. We have since combined them put them

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00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:14.200
<v Speaker 5>all in Chilicothe, Ohio. But in order for them to

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00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:18.600
<v Speaker 5>be executed, they're transferred about thirty six hours before their

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00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:23.279
<v Speaker 5>execution down to Lucasville, which is on the border of

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<v Speaker 5>Ohio and Kentucky, and that's where the death house sits.

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<v Speaker 5>But going back to the actual death row, I was

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00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:36.639
<v Speaker 5>completely and utterly shocked to see how much freedom our

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00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:40.159
<v Speaker 5>death row inmates here in Ohio get and the amenities

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<v Speaker 5>that they have access to. So every single person that

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<v Speaker 5>I've ever dealt with on Ohio's death row actually would

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00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:53.279
<v Speaker 5>prefer to be on death row than in general population

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00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.840
<v Speaker 5>because they have so much more freedom. They're out of

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<v Speaker 5>their cells most of the day, their wrec time inside

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00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.039
<v Speaker 5>and out. They have access they have TVs in their cells.

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00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:09.559
<v Speaker 5>They have access to handheld video games MP three players

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<v Speaker 5>so they can select music. They have access to computers.

270
00:16:13.679 --> 00:16:17.200
<v Speaker 5>They have their own typewriters. They can order food boxes

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00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:20.919
<v Speaker 5>of whatever kind of food that they desire. They can

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00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:25.679
<v Speaker 5>order different tennisues, whether they want Nikes or Converts or Adidas.

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00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:29.799
<v Speaker 5>They're allowed three fully nude pictures sent to them every

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00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:33.639
<v Speaker 5>single day, as long as there are no pictures depicting penetration.

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00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:38.000
<v Speaker 5>And the art they have tons of art supplies that

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00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.840
<v Speaker 5>they can order. So these inmates, the worst of the worst,

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00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:46.720
<v Speaker 5>are treated very very well. That doesn't even include the

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00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.879
<v Speaker 5>medical care that they get because Ohio will literally go

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00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.919
<v Speaker 5>to extraordinary measures to keep them alive in order to

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00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.000
<v Speaker 5>execute them. So there's one of my inmates who's been

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00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.080
<v Speaker 5>on death row whose medical bills have exceeded over a

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00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.200
<v Speaker 5>million dollars, and they have done this in order to

283
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:10.680
<v Speaker 5>keep him alive so they can executehim. So when I

284
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:14.079
<v Speaker 5>get to death Row, I was thinking that these guys

285
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.559
<v Speaker 5>would be in a cage, locked up, and then I

286
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:21.079
<v Speaker 5>would talk through them through a telephone or through glass.

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00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:25.200
<v Speaker 5>But instead, when I started in Mansfield, it was just

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00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:28.720
<v Speaker 5>a room that we were in with no no handcuffs

289
00:17:28.759 --> 00:17:33.079
<v Speaker 5>on or anything. And now in chili coffee, no handcuffs,

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00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.640
<v Speaker 5>no shackles. Depending on when the visitations taking place or

291
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:39.279
<v Speaker 5>the interview, we can walk up and down death Row

292
00:17:40.599 --> 00:17:45.079
<v Speaker 5>free to ourselves and discuss anything we want. We can

293
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.640
<v Speaker 5>eat out of the vending machines unless it's towards the

294
00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.400
<v Speaker 5>end of their sentence. So the week before then they

295
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.200
<v Speaker 5>would allow us to order food to be delivered to

296
00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:57.920
<v Speaker 5>the prison. So one of the last guys I witnessed,

297
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.480
<v Speaker 5>I think we ordered eight dollars worth of Italian food

298
00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:03.839
<v Speaker 5>and they actually delivered it to us right there to

299
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.359
<v Speaker 5>death row. So I was, I was taken aback. I

300
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:11.880
<v Speaker 5>guess thats how easy our death row inmates have it.

301
00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.279
<v Speaker 5>It's very quiet there, it's very clean. Everybody gets along.

302
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.599
<v Speaker 5>I've never seen any fights, no yelling or anything like that.

303
00:18:19.960 --> 00:18:25.559
<v Speaker 5>So I guess I was. I was just completely caught

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00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:26.319
<v Speaker 5>off guard on that.

305
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:33.720
<v Speaker 7>Now, let's before we talk about the various methods of

306
00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.839
<v Speaker 7>execution that you outline in the in your book in

307
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:41.319
<v Speaker 7>different parts of America. And also you outline the type

308
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.640
<v Speaker 7>of execution of course, that they're going to utilize. They

309
00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.559
<v Speaker 7>did utilize in Ohio and they utilize today in Ohio.

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00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.680
<v Speaker 7>Add a couple very interesting facts about the behavior of

311
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:56.039
<v Speaker 7>the pharmaceutical companies very interesting as well. But let's talk

312
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:00.839
<v Speaker 7>about the worst of the worst. For example, the very first,

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00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:05.000
<v Speaker 7>I believe, very first person that you spoke to was

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00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:09.119
<v Speaker 7>Chris Newton. So tell us what Chris Newton was noted

315
00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:15.240
<v Speaker 7>for and the peculiar behavior that he exhibited.

316
00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:23.680
<v Speaker 5>So, Chris was a Satan worshiper, and he had very

317
00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:28.759
<v Speaker 5>little regard for human life, and he knew enough that

318
00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:32.400
<v Speaker 5>he did not fit into society, but he hated prison

319
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:36.480
<v Speaker 5>so he was actually in prison on low level felonies

320
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.720
<v Speaker 5>breaking and entering robbing, not armed robbery or anything like that.

321
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:47.480
<v Speaker 5>And he just knew that he could not survive in

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00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:51.039
<v Speaker 5>the outside world without doing a lot of harm to

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00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:52.759
<v Speaker 5>a lot of people. But he didn't want to live

324
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:58.279
<v Speaker 5>in prison either, so he decided that he would use

325
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:02.000
<v Speaker 5>the state as a method of suicide. Because one thing

326
00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.440
<v Speaker 5>about the death row inmates, they can kill anybody but themselves,

327
00:20:05.559 --> 00:20:09.640
<v Speaker 5>which is a whole different topic. So Chris decided that

328
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:12.240
<v Speaker 5>he was going to be put in protective custody. He

329
00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:14.119
<v Speaker 5>was going to lie to the guards telling him that

330
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:17.279
<v Speaker 5>the gangs were after him. In the entire time he

331
00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.720
<v Speaker 5>was plotting what he was going to do. So the

332
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.400
<v Speaker 5>guards agreed to put him in protective custody, and they

333
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.799
<v Speaker 5>were walking him back there and he was looking in

334
00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:28.000
<v Speaker 5>the different cells to see who was around, and he

335
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:31.200
<v Speaker 5>spotted one individual. He had no idea who he was,

336
00:20:31.480 --> 00:20:34.960
<v Speaker 5>but he looked weak, and he told the guard that

337
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:36.880
<v Speaker 5>guy and I we get along. You can sell me

338
00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:40.279
<v Speaker 5>with him, and the guards were like fine, So they

339
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.359
<v Speaker 5>decided to bunk him in this other inmate together, and

340
00:20:44.920 --> 00:20:48.039
<v Speaker 5>Chris knew that that's the person he was going to kill.

341
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:51.960
<v Speaker 5>He just needed something to spark it. So he told

342
00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:56.079
<v Speaker 5>that inmate. The next night, listen, you and I after

343
00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.319
<v Speaker 5>lights out, we're going to have sex. And the guy said, no,

344
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:03.799
<v Speaker 5>that's that's not anything that I'm interested in. And Chris

345
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.160
<v Speaker 5>told me that's the spark that he needed. So when

346
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:11.039
<v Speaker 5>the lights went out, he decided to beat and strangle

347
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.640
<v Speaker 5>this guy to death, and in doing so he got

348
00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:18.759
<v Speaker 5>so sexually aroused and turned on that he started rubbing

349
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:21.519
<v Speaker 5>the blood all over him and drinking it, and then

350
00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.200
<v Speaker 5>proceeded to masturbate all over him, and then when he

351
00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:28.480
<v Speaker 5>was finished, he sat down and ate a pair until

352
00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.759
<v Speaker 5>the guards arrived the next morning, because nobody heard anything

353
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.079
<v Speaker 5>because they were a protective custody and the doors are

354
00:21:34.519 --> 00:21:40.000
<v Speaker 5>kind of solid, and I have the crime scene photos

355
00:21:40.599 --> 00:21:44.480
<v Speaker 5>of Christine and they're laughing, covered completely naked in blood,

356
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.279
<v Speaker 5>and it was just it was bizarre to listen to

357
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:52.079
<v Speaker 5>him tell me the story. And then he went on

358
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:57.039
<v Speaker 5>to tell the court that that murder he did was

359
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.559
<v Speaker 5>to get him the death penalty, and that if the

360
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.480
<v Speaker 5>court would not give him the death penalty, he was

361
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:05.680
<v Speaker 5>going to continue to murder until they did so the

362
00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.920
<v Speaker 5>blood would be on their hands, not his, and that's

363
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<v Speaker 5>how he ended up getting the death penalty.

364
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<v Speaker 7>Incredible. What was the most incredible thing about the interview

365
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<v Speaker 7>with Christopher.

366
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<v Speaker 5>Newton Probably every time that I interviewed him, which was

367
00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:34.440
<v Speaker 5>numerous times, you could sense that he could not wait

368
00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:41.759
<v Speaker 5>to die, and he just could not the date of

369
00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:45.119
<v Speaker 5>his execution would not get there soon enough. And I

370
00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:49.119
<v Speaker 5>remember distinctly sitting in the room with him all alone

371
00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.559
<v Speaker 5>and were laughing and talking about something because he was

372
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<v Speaker 5>a very very humorous, funny individual. He was, from a

373
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<v Speaker 5>psychologist standpoint, great to interview. So we were sitting there

374
00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.640
<v Speaker 5>and again no guards or anything were around us. The

375
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:08.079
<v Speaker 5>door opens after about being in there, maybe a half

376
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.880
<v Speaker 5>hour or forty five minutes, and Chris was he had

377
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.240
<v Speaker 5>tobacco in his mouth and we were talking, and the

378
00:23:17.640 --> 00:23:20.359
<v Speaker 5>case manager or the guard at the time, looks at

379
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:24.279
<v Speaker 5>Newton and says, Newton, I should write you up for that.

380
00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:25.960
<v Speaker 5>You know, you're not about to be chewing in here.

381
00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:31.759
<v Speaker 5>And Chris stopped, with the coldest eyes of a stare

382
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:35.119
<v Speaker 5>that I've ever seen, looked directly at him and told

383
00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:38.920
<v Speaker 5>him that, yeah, I know, and I've always wanted to

384
00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:42.079
<v Speaker 5>kill you too. And the only reason I haven't killed

385
00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:44.880
<v Speaker 5>you is because I want to die on my date

386
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:48.000
<v Speaker 5>of execution. But so help me God, I will kill

387
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:50.720
<v Speaker 5>you right now if you don't get out of this room.

388
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.920
<v Speaker 5>And it must have stunned the guard enough because he

389
00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:54.480
<v Speaker 5>looked right back.

390
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:55.599
<v Speaker 4>Ryan.

391
00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:57.160
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392
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393
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<v Speaker 4>I'd like to work, but I like fun too. It's

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<v Speaker 4>a thing.

395
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415
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<v Speaker 5>Details, bak, it means he's all yours and just left

416
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.759
<v Speaker 5>and shut the door. And then Chris turned right back

417
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.599
<v Speaker 5>to me and jokingly said, now, what were we talking about?

418
00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:07.680
<v Speaker 5>And I said the first thing that came to mind.

419
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:09.400
<v Speaker 5>I said, you were talking about killing him, not me,

420
00:25:09.880 --> 00:25:13.200
<v Speaker 5>And he laughed it off and we went back to

421
00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:19.920
<v Speaker 5>our interview. But Chris was very, very bizarre in nature

422
00:25:20.440 --> 00:25:23.200
<v Speaker 5>because of the fact that he just did not have

423
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:28.799
<v Speaker 5>any regard for human life at all, no remorse, would

424
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:31.799
<v Speaker 5>kill again, wanted to kill and rape all the way

425
00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.079
<v Speaker 5>to his execution date because he was naming people that

426
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:39.960
<v Speaker 5>he wished he would have killed. And in fact, his

427
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.400
<v Speaker 5>execution took two hours from start to finish, and he

428
00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:46.640
<v Speaker 5>actually had to get up off the table when they

429
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:49.119
<v Speaker 5>were trying to put the ivs in at one time

430
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:52.599
<v Speaker 5>to go use the restroom, and they allowed him to

431
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:54.400
<v Speaker 5>do that, and then he came back and hopped back on.

432
00:25:56.079 --> 00:25:56.680
<v Speaker 7>Incredible.

433
00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:05.119
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. He never argued, I'm sorry, glad, no go ahead.

434
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:09.799
<v Speaker 5>He never resisted, He never argued with anybody. Even during

435
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:13.640
<v Speaker 5>his execution when they were sticking the needles in his legs,

436
00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:16.960
<v Speaker 5>in his arms, and by his neck to find the veins,

437
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:21.640
<v Speaker 5>he was very talkative to them, laughing at everything. I

438
00:26:21.720 --> 00:26:25.279
<v Speaker 5>just it was one of the most bizarre events I've

439
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:29.839
<v Speaker 5>ever witnessed in my life.

440
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:35.079
<v Speaker 7>Now, talk about the Ohio's uniqueness in terms of their

441
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.920
<v Speaker 7>choice of execution. Tell us a little bit about just

442
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:42.440
<v Speaker 7>the brief history that you have about it, and how

443
00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:45.119
<v Speaker 7>do they execute people today? Tell if you do take

444
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.039
<v Speaker 7>us through that in the book, take us through that.

445
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:52.400
<v Speaker 5>Sure. So, Ohio used to have the electric chair, and

446
00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:57.039
<v Speaker 5>then once everybody started going to lethal injection, Ohio was

447
00:26:57.079 --> 00:27:01.480
<v Speaker 5>one of the states that bali the electric chair and

448
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:07.240
<v Speaker 5>went solely with lethal injection. And since that time period

449
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.400
<v Speaker 5>that all the states that have decided to use the

450
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:15.400
<v Speaker 5>primary method of lethal injection, Ohio included. We've run into

451
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:19.319
<v Speaker 5>problems with the drug manufacturers because a lot of the

452
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:24.359
<v Speaker 5>drugs are manufactured in other countries, be it over in

453
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:27.240
<v Speaker 5>Europe or in Canada, places like that. That do not

454
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:31.960
<v Speaker 5>believe in the death penalty. And these medications, all of

455
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.519
<v Speaker 5>the medications that are used to put to death these

456
00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:39.880
<v Speaker 5>inmates are supposed to be utilized to save lives in

457
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:43.400
<v Speaker 5>surgeries and things of that nature. So when the drug

458
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:48.079
<v Speaker 5>manufacturers get wind of an execution that has taken place

459
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.359
<v Speaker 5>with their drugs, then they no longer will supply that drug.

460
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:56.039
<v Speaker 5>So of the executions that I've witnessed in Ohio, the

461
00:27:56.119 --> 00:28:00.279
<v Speaker 5>multiple executions, even though they've all been lethal injections, all

462
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:03.640
<v Speaker 5>have been different lethal injections. The very first one was

463
00:28:03.640 --> 00:28:07.039
<v Speaker 5>the three drug cocktail, which was the sodium pentethal, the

464
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:11.559
<v Speaker 5>pancureum bromide, and the potassium chloride. That was the very

465
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:17.319
<v Speaker 5>first one. Then they stopped producing the sodium pentathal for

466
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.079
<v Speaker 5>that purpose, and then they went to a two drug cocktail.

467
00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:23.000
<v Speaker 5>And now we're down to a wonder drug cocktail. And

468
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:26.480
<v Speaker 5>I've seen them all but over the last two years.

469
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:29.599
<v Speaker 5>In twenty fourteen and now I'm sorry, twenty fifteen and

470
00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:32.680
<v Speaker 5>now twenty sixteen, the state of Ohio has put in

471
00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:36.480
<v Speaker 5>a moratorium. They've stopped all executions for those two years

472
00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:40.799
<v Speaker 5>in order to try to figure out the complexity of

473
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:44.119
<v Speaker 5>this drug issue, or do we need to bring back

474
00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:48.640
<v Speaker 5>a different method of executions. And that's where we're at

475
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.279
<v Speaker 5>right now. So there were no executions in twenty fifteen

476
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:56.720
<v Speaker 5>and there'll be none in twenty sixteen solely because of

477
00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:01.839
<v Speaker 5>the lethal injection the drugs that are used, and that

478
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:05.039
<v Speaker 5>the laws in the state of Ohio will not allow

479
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:10.759
<v Speaker 5>a compounding drug company or pharmacy to make the drugs

480
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:14.960
<v Speaker 5>if they're manufactured elsewhere already. So it's one of those

481
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.279
<v Speaker 5>weird laws that Ohio has on the books that prevents

482
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:22.519
<v Speaker 5>us from making the drugs. Even though here in Sindeski, Ohio,

483
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:26.000
<v Speaker 5>we have a compounding pharmacy that is more than willing

484
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:29.920
<v Speaker 5>to make the drugs and donate them because I have

485
00:29:30.039 --> 00:29:33.279
<v Speaker 5>spoken to them. The law will not allow that since

486
00:29:33.319 --> 00:29:35.759
<v Speaker 5>those drugs are already manufactured elsewhere.

487
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:41.920
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, incredible, still political you do include and I'll just

488
00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:45.519
<v Speaker 7>mention this. The found that's fascinating is the gas chambers

489
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.119
<v Speaker 7>used in three states of believe, firing squad is in

490
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.440
<v Speaker 7>three states, hanging is in two states, and the electric

491
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:55.000
<v Speaker 7>chair is in eight states. And you say predominantly everybody

492
00:29:55.559 --> 00:30:00.119
<v Speaker 7>more there's more so believes in the lethal injection. So

493
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:04.200
<v Speaker 7>say there's many botched executions where the government has actually sued.

494
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:06.039
<v Speaker 7>Tell us just a little bit about that.

495
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:14.440
<v Speaker 5>So sometimes understand that every method that is used with

496
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:18.559
<v Speaker 5>lethal injection, there is no doctors that are involved, and

497
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:23.920
<v Speaker 5>there are no nurses that are involved, no anesthesiologists, because

498
00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:27.160
<v Speaker 5>the oath that they take is to always do no harm.

499
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:29.759
<v Speaker 5>So therefore they can never be a part of an execution.

500
00:30:30.599 --> 00:30:33.480
<v Speaker 5>So in Ohio and many other states, what they'll use

501
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:39.319
<v Speaker 5>is em like licensed d mts in the prison guards

502
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:41.759
<v Speaker 5>will take place, you know, help out with the procedures

503
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.680
<v Speaker 5>and things like that. So oftentimes they can't find the

504
00:30:45.759 --> 00:30:49.559
<v Speaker 5>veins because they're not really educated enough in that area

505
00:30:49.599 --> 00:30:53.240
<v Speaker 5>to do it. Not to mention, as I've watched them

506
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:57.279
<v Speaker 5>very closely, a lot of them are shaking quite a

507
00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:59.400
<v Speaker 5>bit because I think at that point they realize that

508
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:02.799
<v Speaker 5>they're trying to insert a needle that's going to be

509
00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:05.039
<v Speaker 5>taking the life of a human being, and I think

510
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:09.960
<v Speaker 5>that finally gets to them psychologically. So sometimes they missed

511
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:15.200
<v Speaker 5>the veins. There's actually an inmate that in Ohio's prison

512
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.559
<v Speaker 5>right now that I dealt with in the past that

513
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:23.799
<v Speaker 5>a good friend of mine, Doug shere, who's head of

514
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.240
<v Speaker 5>the Vindication Project. He and I are working closely together

515
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:30.680
<v Speaker 5>on this inmate because he's the only one to ever

516
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:35.000
<v Speaker 5>survive an execution in modern history, and the reason being

517
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.960
<v Speaker 5>it took over two hours. They stuck him eighteen different times,

518
00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:42.519
<v Speaker 5>eighteen different places, started to try to push the drugs through,

519
00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:45.440
<v Speaker 5>and that the drugs never entered the mains, so the

520
00:31:45.480 --> 00:31:49.240
<v Speaker 5>governor had to call because there is a phone inside

521
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:52.880
<v Speaker 5>the execution chamber that rang. After two hours, they halted

522
00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:57.039
<v Speaker 5>the execution. They were assuming the attorneys anyways that they

523
00:31:57.079 --> 00:31:59.240
<v Speaker 5>would not be allowed to execute him again because it

524
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:03.119
<v Speaker 5>would fall under double jeopardy, And just about a month

525
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:05.119
<v Speaker 5>and a half ago, the Supreme Court ruled that since

526
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:09.240
<v Speaker 5>the drugs never really entered the veins, then the execution

527
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:13.759
<v Speaker 5>process didn't start. So he's been put back on the

528
00:32:13.799 --> 00:32:18.200
<v Speaker 5>list to be executed. And I, from the psychological standpoint,

529
00:32:18.599 --> 00:32:21.480
<v Speaker 5>am dealing with him because I've never talked to anybody

530
00:32:21.559 --> 00:32:26.079
<v Speaker 5>that has gone through the entire step before of saying

531
00:32:26.079 --> 00:32:29.559
<v Speaker 5>your final goodbyes, having your last meal, making your last statement,

532
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.480
<v Speaker 5>giving everything away, your last will and testament, surviving it

533
00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:35.960
<v Speaker 5>and didn't have to do it all over again. So

534
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.920
<v Speaker 5>I'm going at it from that standpoint, from look looking

535
00:32:39.920 --> 00:32:43.559
<v Speaker 5>at the psychological aspect, and the only two people that

536
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:47.720
<v Speaker 5>he will deal with are Doug and myself. So I'm

537
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:51.200
<v Speaker 5>fortunate enough to have that ability to still go down

538
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.519
<v Speaker 5>on death row and deal with the individuals like that.

539
00:32:55.119 --> 00:32:58.200
<v Speaker 5>But there are some states just last month, like the

540
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:02.559
<v Speaker 5>state of Virginia, they had the governor had to sign

541
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:06.480
<v Speaker 5>a bill to either bring back the electric chair or

542
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.640
<v Speaker 5>try to find a different method of execution because of

543
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:12.640
<v Speaker 5>the way the lethal injections have been going. And there

544
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:15.200
<v Speaker 5>are a few other states that want to join, like

545
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:18.680
<v Speaker 5>Utah and bring back the firing squad as well, because

546
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:21.920
<v Speaker 5>it seems to be more humane way to do it

547
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:25.640
<v Speaker 5>and it's a lot less political when it comes to

548
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:29.640
<v Speaker 5>the manufacturing of the drugs.

549
00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.039
<v Speaker 7>We're going to use this as an opportunity to talk

550
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.920
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551
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:41.000
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566
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567
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569
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570
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579
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:39.599
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580
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:45.320
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581
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:50.000
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582
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:55.679
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583
00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:01.039
<v Speaker 7>true murder. Now, when we last left off, I wanted

584
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:05.239
<v Speaker 7>to ask this question, other than being a psychologist, what

585
00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:09.440
<v Speaker 7>do you think it is that you bring to these inmates.

586
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:14.480
<v Speaker 7>What is the reason why these inmates on death row?

587
00:36:16.119 --> 00:36:18.199
<v Speaker 7>Why would they speak to you and why were they

588
00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:22.039
<v Speaker 7>so candid with you? What is it about you and

589
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.840
<v Speaker 7>your position and these inmates that makes it that they

590
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:27.360
<v Speaker 7>want to confide in you.

591
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:34.199
<v Speaker 5>I would say that based on the way that I

592
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:39.679
<v Speaker 5>respect them as a person, because they have done some

593
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:44.320
<v Speaker 5>very very horrible things. They've committed horrible murders and rapes,

594
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.599
<v Speaker 5>some of them multiple victims, and there are a lot

595
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.880
<v Speaker 5>of people out there, victims' families that have every right

596
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.559
<v Speaker 5>to hate them and want them dead, But they have

597
00:36:55.639 --> 00:36:58.480
<v Speaker 5>not done anything wrong to me. So when I go

598
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:02.320
<v Speaker 5>and talk to them, I dress very casual. I don't

599
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:05.559
<v Speaker 5>go by doctor Kimberland. It's by you know, it's first name,

600
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:10.599
<v Speaker 5>Basis Bill. I talk to them and with them, not

601
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.880
<v Speaker 5>at them or above them. I'll joke with them, I'll

602
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:19.679
<v Speaker 5>laugh with them. I of course utilize a lot of

603
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:23.480
<v Speaker 5>the skills I learned in the field of psychology. With

604
00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:26.599
<v Speaker 5>the least amount of questions I ask them, the more

605
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:29.320
<v Speaker 5>they'll tell me. So I don't come at them in

606
00:37:29.360 --> 00:37:34.519
<v Speaker 5>an invasive way, and I treat them as a person,

607
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:38.840
<v Speaker 5>and I think that's what they like about me the most,

608
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:47.079
<v Speaker 5>just it's another human to human contact that isn't an

609
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:51.039
<v Speaker 5>authority figure, that isn't going to look down upon them

610
00:37:51.159 --> 00:37:54.239
<v Speaker 5>or judge them the entire time that I'm interviewing them.

611
00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:57.000
<v Speaker 5>And I don't do it in a clinical setting. I

612
00:37:57.079 --> 00:38:00.559
<v Speaker 5>do it in their setting. So when I'm on death row,

613
00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:04.000
<v Speaker 5>I'm in their house, not in my office, and I

614
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:06.360
<v Speaker 5>think that makes them a little bit more relaxed as well.

615
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:11.519
<v Speaker 5>So that's what got them to open up in the beginning.

616
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:16.559
<v Speaker 5>Now it has mushroomed so much because that my name

617
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:20.679
<v Speaker 5>gets passed along on not just Ohio's death row now

618
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:23.280
<v Speaker 5>but all over and now more and more of them

619
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.440
<v Speaker 5>reach out to me because they feel that I'm a

620
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:29.000
<v Speaker 5>stand up guy. I never lie to them whatever they

621
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:32.360
<v Speaker 5>ask me, because I already know they know the answers

622
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:35.719
<v Speaker 5>to They know where I live, they know where my

623
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:38.880
<v Speaker 5>wife teaches, they know where my daughter lives, my son

624
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:40.719
<v Speaker 5>where he goes to school. They know all of this

625
00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:44.400
<v Speaker 5>typically before they even reach out to me. So when

626
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.519
<v Speaker 5>they ask me those questions, really they're trying to see

627
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:51.079
<v Speaker 5>if I'm going to stumble and lie to them, and

628
00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.000
<v Speaker 5>of course I would never do that. So when they

629
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.639
<v Speaker 5>see that I'm very upfront and honest with them, then

630
00:38:57.719 --> 00:38:59.400
<v Speaker 5>they return that favor to me.

631
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:05.679
<v Speaker 7>Now, when you talked about horrible crimes, speaking of horrible crimes,

632
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:12.119
<v Speaker 7>probably the worst criminal killer that you spoke to, at

633
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:15.719
<v Speaker 7>least among the worst, was Anthony's Soul, and he's been

634
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:18.639
<v Speaker 7>featured on this program with a fine book by Steve

635
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:24.039
<v Speaker 7>Miller called Nobody's Women Eleven Victims. I believe the women

636
00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:29.960
<v Speaker 7>victims a particularly disgusting and bruesome killer. Tell us about

637
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.000
<v Speaker 7>your correspondence, how it came to be, and tell us

638
00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:37.760
<v Speaker 7>more about your correspondence. What was it contained? What do

639
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:39.960
<v Speaker 7>you have to say, Anthony soul.

640
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:45.800
<v Speaker 5>So I checked my mail one day and it was

641
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.760
<v Speaker 5>a short letter, not even maybe a paragraph, and it

642
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:54.800
<v Speaker 5>was from death Row and it said Anthony Sowell on it.

643
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:59.960
<v Speaker 5>So I opened it and it said, flat out, dear

644
00:40:00.079 --> 00:40:03.880
<v Speaker 5>mister CHIMBERLAIND, my name's Tony Sowell. I hear you're a

645
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.360
<v Speaker 5>stand up guy on death Row and a good person

646
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.159
<v Speaker 5>to talk to you. I'm going to have you checked

647
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:12.039
<v Speaker 5>out and if you check out, I'll talk to you.

648
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.119
<v Speaker 5>I'll be in touch. And that's all it said. So

649
00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.960
<v Speaker 5>I found that to be, you know, quite interesting, especially

650
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:23.679
<v Speaker 5>since you know he is, you know, a high profile

651
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:28.480
<v Speaker 5>serial killer at least here in Ohio. And it wasn't

652
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:31.280
<v Speaker 5>long after that that I that I received another letter

653
00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.400
<v Speaker 5>from him, and it stated that I did check out,

654
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:37.159
<v Speaker 5>and it included the forms for me to fill out

655
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.960
<v Speaker 5>to come visit him, and he said come down anytime

656
00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:45.239
<v Speaker 5>and we'll talk. So I went down a number of times.

657
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.960
<v Speaker 5>The thing with Anthony, though, is he's a very controlling individual,

658
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:54.960
<v Speaker 5>and when I received a letter, because of the position

659
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.639
<v Speaker 5>that I am in both as psychologist and then working

660
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:03.039
<v Speaker 5>for the courts before and still a relationship with the

661
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:08.079
<v Speaker 5>courts now, of course, the FBI was kind of interested

662
00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:11.400
<v Speaker 5>in seeing if he was going to admit to any

663
00:41:11.440 --> 00:41:14.800
<v Speaker 5>other victims out there instead of just the eleven, because

664
00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:18.639
<v Speaker 5>they found all eleven victims that he kept in his home,

665
00:41:18.679 --> 00:41:22.840
<v Speaker 5>in his backyard and everything. But I was under the impression,

666
00:41:23.159 --> 00:41:26.559
<v Speaker 5>as many others, that there are probably more victims out there.

667
00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:30.280
<v Speaker 5>But Anthony was very new to death row and is

668
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:33.519
<v Speaker 5>still new to death row, so there's no incentive for

669
00:41:33.559 --> 00:41:37.159
<v Speaker 5>him to talk about other victims. But he's a very

670
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:43.239
<v Speaker 5>intelligent individual. Was in the United States Marine Corps, was married,

671
00:41:43.880 --> 00:41:47.760
<v Speaker 5>had a child. The wife after he had divorced her,

672
00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:51.440
<v Speaker 5>was killed in a factory accident. He would not give

673
00:41:51.480 --> 00:41:54.800
<v Speaker 5>me his daughter's name, but told me a lot about them,

674
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:59.760
<v Speaker 5>and we talked for hours and hours each time. But

675
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:02.599
<v Speaker 5>he always wanted to be in control. He wanted me

676
00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:06.480
<v Speaker 5>to write a book specifically about him, not anybody else

677
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:10.320
<v Speaker 5>on death Row. He wanted me to only have his artwork,

678
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:13.679
<v Speaker 5>not any other inmates artwork, and he wanted me to

679
00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:16.800
<v Speaker 5>pay for certain things, and of course I wouldn't agree

680
00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:19.440
<v Speaker 5>to any of those terms. So we didn't really part

681
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:22.880
<v Speaker 5>well when it was all said and done, because I

682
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:26.800
<v Speaker 5>didn't give him the glory that he wanted. Because the

683
00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:29.280
<v Speaker 5>serial killers that I deal with are the mass murders.

684
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:33.440
<v Speaker 5>Their biggest fears to be forgotten. And that's Anthony Sowell's

685
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:35.760
<v Speaker 5>biggest fear. He does not want to be forgotten. He

686
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:38.519
<v Speaker 5>wants to be known as the most notorious serial killer

687
00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:42.599
<v Speaker 5>in the state of Ohio. And for some reason, Ohio

688
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:48.000
<v Speaker 5>has a lot of high profile killers because this is

689
00:42:48.119 --> 00:42:51.320
<v Speaker 5>you know, our state is where Charles Manson was born,

690
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:55.000
<v Speaker 5>and Jeffrey Dahmer lived and was born, and then of

691
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:58.400
<v Speaker 5>course Anthony Sowell and that. So he just wants to

692
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:01.440
<v Speaker 5>be known to every but he is the most notorious

693
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:03.960
<v Speaker 5>serial killer, and I would not glorify him in the

694
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:08.440
<v Speaker 5>way that he won it. So I interviewed him countless times.

695
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:11.360
<v Speaker 5>Then I ended up cutting times with him because I

696
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:14.079
<v Speaker 5>was getting nowhere with him.

697
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:18.119
<v Speaker 7>You include a couple other a few other examples, and

698
00:43:18.159 --> 00:43:20.280
<v Speaker 7>we'll go through them, and just I'll ask you to

699
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:26.480
<v Speaker 7>talk about them. James of Philiogy, Yes, talk about him.

700
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:31.760
<v Speaker 5>Very charismatic individual. In fact, he went to the college

701
00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:36.960
<v Speaker 5>that I teach at, got his associates degree there, went

702
00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:39.679
<v Speaker 5>on and got his bachelor's degree, so he's very educated.

703
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:47.440
<v Speaker 5>He was also ex military and hunted down his ex

704
00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:50.119
<v Speaker 5>wife when he found out she was getting engaged with

705
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:53.840
<v Speaker 5>somebody else and broke in and chased her down to

706
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:57.400
<v Speaker 5>the neighbors and killed her in the closet, and tried

707
00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.880
<v Speaker 5>to kill the neighbor, but the gun wouldn't go off

708
00:43:59.880 --> 00:44:03.480
<v Speaker 5>and he escape. They ended up catching him and subsequently

709
00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.840
<v Speaker 5>he was given the death penalty. But the only one

710
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:10.320
<v Speaker 5>that I've ever had that had such a huge following.

711
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:15.360
<v Speaker 5>People liked James philology, and in fact, after his execution

712
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:19.559
<v Speaker 5>they had a funeral and awake in his hometown and

713
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.719
<v Speaker 5>there was something like two hundred people that actually attended it.

714
00:44:23.840 --> 00:44:27.280
<v Speaker 5>I was invited to go, but when one of my

715
00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:30.559
<v Speaker 5>inmates are executed and that that file is closed and

716
00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:34.039
<v Speaker 5>I'm done with that individual, so I didn't attend it.

717
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:39.320
<v Speaker 5>But he would right correspond with me on a daily basis.

718
00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 5>Was very concerned about my well being every time I

719
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:46.440
<v Speaker 5>came to death Row. Wanted to know if I needed

720
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:48.840
<v Speaker 5>anything on the outside, and this was all the way

721
00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:53.920
<v Speaker 5>up to his executions, so he was probably the only

722
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:59.039
<v Speaker 5>one although he was never remorseful, He never admitted to

723
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.559
<v Speaker 5>being remorseful, acted remorseful. He's the only one of all

724
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:08.559
<v Speaker 5>of my inmates that he could literally be sitting right

725
00:45:08.599 --> 00:45:11.280
<v Speaker 5>next to you and be one of your best friends

726
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:15.039
<v Speaker 5>and you would never realize that he did the things

727
00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:22.639
<v Speaker 5>that he did. Very very very charismatic individual. So I

728
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:26.559
<v Speaker 5>spent a lot of time with James before he was

729
00:45:26.599 --> 00:45:27.480
<v Speaker 5>finally executed.

730
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:34.880
<v Speaker 7>Now you include another gentleman, Stephen Hugely, and it was

731
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.679
<v Speaker 7>an incredible amount of letters. So tell us what was

732
00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:42.159
<v Speaker 7>contained in the letters and correspondence from Stephen Stephen Hugely.

733
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:47.440
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's Stephen Hugely And he was a character. He

734
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:51.079
<v Speaker 5>was actually he's actually on death row in Tennessee. So

735
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:55.280
<v Speaker 5>when I started doing my research in Ohio, somehow he

736
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:59.039
<v Speaker 5>got my name in Tennessee and started writing me and

737
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.880
<v Speaker 5>then wanted me to exclusive rights to all of his

738
00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:05.280
<v Speaker 5>stories and everything else. A very needy individual. Though he

739
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:08.239
<v Speaker 5>would write letters sometimes, you know, like one hundred hundred

740
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:11.119
<v Speaker 5>and fifty pages long. I'd have to have bound in

741
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:16.559
<v Speaker 5>order to not lose them. And he had shot and

742
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:19.679
<v Speaker 5>killed his mother, shot her fifteen times, threw over the bridge,

743
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:25.280
<v Speaker 5>was given a life sentence in Tennessee, turned around, killed

744
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:30.480
<v Speaker 5>another inmates over some money that was owed, again given

745
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:36.360
<v Speaker 5>another life sentence, and then his prison psychologist. He did

746
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:39.920
<v Speaker 5>not like his prison psychologists, and that individual talked down

747
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:45.320
<v Speaker 5>to him, treated him very disrespectful, and he decided that

748
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:46.880
<v Speaker 5>he was just going to kill him and then that

749
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:48.639
<v Speaker 5>way there they'd have to give him the death penalty.

750
00:46:48.760 --> 00:46:53.920
<v Speaker 5>So he waited till his next appointment, and he had

751
00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:56.920
<v Speaker 5>a shank and he stabbed him sixty four times because

752
00:46:57.400 --> 00:46:59.719
<v Speaker 5>he said that he figured if he put enough holes

753
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:04.199
<v Speaker 5>in him, they couldn't plug them all. So so Stephen

754
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:07.119
<v Speaker 5>and he was actually just in the news last year

755
00:47:07.800 --> 00:47:11.840
<v Speaker 5>again because of having a cell phone in on death

756
00:47:11.920 --> 00:47:15.400
<v Speaker 5>row and he had taken pictures and had them downloaded

757
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:20.360
<v Speaker 5>to a dating website. And there's Stephen in a gated

758
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:24.199
<v Speaker 5>community on a dating website and he's on death row

759
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:29.039
<v Speaker 5>while waiting his execution. So they're very brilliant behind bars.

760
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:37.000
<v Speaker 7>Sure you have called William Sap the most evil man

761
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.800
<v Speaker 7>you have ever encountered. Tell us why.

762
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:47.760
<v Speaker 5>William Sap is in my opinion from a psychological standpoint,

763
00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:53.440
<v Speaker 5>professional and personal opinion, pure evil he is. When I

764
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:55.840
<v Speaker 5>went to talk to him, he had reached out to

765
00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:58.280
<v Speaker 5>me to ask if I wanted to see him, and

766
00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:01.920
<v Speaker 5>I said sure, just based on the letter that he

767
00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:04.800
<v Speaker 5>had written me. He seemed very intriguing. He said that

768
00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:08.480
<v Speaker 5>nobody would ever really be able to stomach his stories,

769
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:12.480
<v Speaker 5>so I found that as a challenge. I went down

770
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:15.639
<v Speaker 5>there to death Row and the guards very rarely ever

771
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:17.280
<v Speaker 5>talked to me, but when they found out I was

772
00:48:17.320 --> 00:48:22.320
<v Speaker 5>talking to Sap, they were stunned because he not only

773
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:25.440
<v Speaker 5>does he not talk to anybody, but he was suspected

774
00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:29.360
<v Speaker 5>at the time of killing seventy four victims. And they

775
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.079
<v Speaker 5>asked me, am I going to be able to find

776
00:48:32.119 --> 00:48:36.599
<v Speaker 5>out because the FEDS would be very interested, And at

777
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:38.320
<v Speaker 5>the time I said, I have no idea. I've never

778
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:39.519
<v Speaker 5>met the guy. I don't know if we're going to

779
00:48:39.599 --> 00:48:42.760
<v Speaker 5>talk about the weather or what. So I interviewed him

780
00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:45.320
<v Speaker 5>a few times and then finally got to the point

781
00:48:45.320 --> 00:48:47.159
<v Speaker 5>where I said, listen, you know, I hear you're good

782
00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:50.840
<v Speaker 5>for seventy four murders. He looked at me right in

783
00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.480
<v Speaker 5>the eye. She said, now, absolutely not. He said, anybody

784
00:48:54.519 --> 00:48:59.000
<v Speaker 5>that ever kills anybody, they never forget killing a person.

785
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.440
<v Speaker 5>He said, anybody ever tells you that they can't remember

786
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:05.920
<v Speaker 5>certain details or certain things, then they're lying. He said,

787
00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:09.840
<v Speaker 5>I've killed fifty people, not a single one more, and

788
00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:12.800
<v Speaker 5>I know we're all fifty of Marat. They have some

789
00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:15.119
<v Speaker 5>of the bodies. I know where the rest of the marat.

790
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:20.079
<v Speaker 5>And he would just go on about how he would

791
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:24.559
<v Speaker 5>rape and torture these victims before he killed them. His

792
00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:29.000
<v Speaker 5>thinking was if you are ten years older, ten years

793
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:32.440
<v Speaker 5>old or older, than you're fair game for sex as

794
00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:35.840
<v Speaker 5>long as you appeared to be ten years old or older,

795
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:40.840
<v Speaker 5>because in his warped mind, he didn't want to rape

796
00:49:40.880 --> 00:49:42.880
<v Speaker 5>a child. He had a ten year old to him,

797
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:46.239
<v Speaker 5>wasn't a child. His first brush with the law was

798
00:49:47.559 --> 00:49:50.480
<v Speaker 5>when he was a young child. He lit his biological

799
00:49:50.559 --> 00:49:53.880
<v Speaker 5>mom on fire tried to kill her. So that set

800
00:49:53.960 --> 00:49:57.719
<v Speaker 5>that whole dynamic in motion. And in fact, I have

801
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:02.800
<v Speaker 5>three maps to three different bodies, one in Ohio, two

802
00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:06.679
<v Speaker 5>in Florida that Doug share and I are also going

803
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:11.719
<v Speaker 5>to collaborate on to locate those bodies because working with

804
00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:14.320
<v Speaker 5>the FBI, and they agree that they believe that the

805
00:50:14.400 --> 00:50:17.679
<v Speaker 5>maps are really good. But like the drug thing, when

806
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:20.639
<v Speaker 5>it comes to lethal injection. There's also politics involved in

807
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:26.880
<v Speaker 5>law enforcements, so unfortunately the bodies are of prostitutes and

808
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:32.800
<v Speaker 5>are of no significant value, I'm assuming to the federal government.

809
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:36.800
<v Speaker 5>So unfortunately, there are families out there that are missing

810
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:40.599
<v Speaker 5>loved ones, and we're hoping to locate those and have

811
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:45.320
<v Speaker 5>some closure for some families. And in Williams's case, he

812
00:50:46.239 --> 00:50:48.559
<v Speaker 5>will give me the rest of them after we locate these,

813
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:52.559
<v Speaker 5>because he's upset that we haven't dug these bodies up already.

814
00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:57.320
<v Speaker 5>He's coming to the end of his time on death row,

815
00:50:57.679 --> 00:50:59.239
<v Speaker 5>and I think he's going to start getting more and

816
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:01.840
<v Speaker 5>more desperate to see what he can do to extend

817
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:05.920
<v Speaker 5>his stay on death row instead of being executed. But

818
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:12.440
<v Speaker 5>as far as evil, I've never in my life interviewed

819
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:16.760
<v Speaker 5>anybody more evil than him. To see it in his

820
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:21.159
<v Speaker 5>eyes how much he loves to rape and kill. And

821
00:51:21.199 --> 00:51:24.440
<v Speaker 5>in fact, he has a couple daughters that he has

822
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:26.960
<v Speaker 5>not seen since he's been on death row. And I

823
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:29.719
<v Speaker 5>asked him one time we were sitting there eating and

824
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:31.679
<v Speaker 5>I said, well, what would you say to your daughters

825
00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:35.039
<v Speaker 5>if I brought them here? You say, you have no compassion,

826
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:38.320
<v Speaker 5>no feelings, nothing, You don't know what love really is.

827
00:51:38.679 --> 00:51:40.880
<v Speaker 5>You have two wonderful daughters. What would you say to

828
00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:43.960
<v Speaker 5>them if I brought them here? And he thought for

829
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:46.079
<v Speaker 5>a few minutes, looked me dead in me, he said,

830
00:51:46.199 --> 00:51:48.519
<v Speaker 5>I wouldn't say anything to him. I'd kill them. If

831
00:51:48.519 --> 00:51:51.159
<v Speaker 5>they were sitting here right now, I would kill them.

832
00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:54.320
<v Speaker 5>One of my biggest regrets is I didn't kill them

833
00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:58.280
<v Speaker 5>before I came to Death Row. And it's just, you know,

834
00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:02.519
<v Speaker 5>the looking his eyes, you know the tone of his voice,

835
00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:08.760
<v Speaker 5>how calm, cool and collective he is. It's just it's

836
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:11.719
<v Speaker 5>like he looks right through you. So, yeah, that's by

837
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:14.400
<v Speaker 5>far the most evil person I've ever interviewed him.

838
00:52:15.960 --> 00:52:18.480
<v Speaker 7>Well, when you're talking about fifty people, that's incredible too.

839
00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:23.599
<v Speaker 7>So that is a number, just conveniently or interestingly, just

840
00:52:23.639 --> 00:52:28.840
<v Speaker 7>one above the ridge the Green River Killer. Yeah, you always,

841
00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:31.800
<v Speaker 7>you said, he always kept the momental from each victim,

842
00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:35.639
<v Speaker 7>so a little trophy from each victim. And also enjoyed

843
00:52:35.679 --> 00:52:38.400
<v Speaker 7>sex after death with these corpses, right.

844
00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:44.079
<v Speaker 5>Correct, you know? He in fact, he says, and I

845
00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:47.760
<v Speaker 5>believe hi, because I've had other inmates that have admitted

846
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:53.480
<v Speaker 5>to being NECROPHILIAX having sex with the victims afterwards. But

847
00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:59.159
<v Speaker 5>he thinks it's a common type of action, because I

848
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:01.880
<v Speaker 5>would When I have him about this, I said, you

849
00:53:01.880 --> 00:53:05.920
<v Speaker 5>would literally have sex with them a day or so later,

850
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:09.559
<v Speaker 5>And he said, well, yeah, wouldn't you. So in their

851
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:14.199
<v Speaker 5>warped mind, what they think they're doing is normal. They

852
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:19.239
<v Speaker 5>think us as abnormal. He admitted that the longest he

853
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.519
<v Speaker 5>had ever went was five days, where he went back

854
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:26.280
<v Speaker 5>and had sex with the body five days later. He

855
00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:30.400
<v Speaker 5>would always take something from them. It might be a nipple,

856
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:33.199
<v Speaker 5>it might be a part of an ear, a finger,

857
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:36.719
<v Speaker 5>it could be jewelry, it could be anything like that,

858
00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:43.880
<v Speaker 5>but he always kept something, and his mo was he believes,

859
00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:47.679
<v Speaker 5>at least this is how he classifies himself as a cleaner.

860
00:53:48.199 --> 00:53:53.840
<v Speaker 5>He would always clean up afterwards to try to not

861
00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:57.760
<v Speaker 5>leave a crime scene. He would dispose of the bodies,

862
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:04.519
<v Speaker 5>usually around railroad tracks or anywhere that there was a

863
00:54:04.599 --> 00:54:09.719
<v Speaker 5>significant dump or landfill or anything close by, so when

864
00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:14.199
<v Speaker 5>the decomposition of the body started, that smell would not

865
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:17.760
<v Speaker 5>stand out from any of the other smells. So he

866
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:22.440
<v Speaker 5>was very cold, very calculated, and even admitted that he

867
00:54:22.519 --> 00:54:26.880
<v Speaker 5>was a very nice looking guy, very trustworthy, and lived

868
00:54:26.880 --> 00:54:29.559
<v Speaker 5>a double life. Otherwise, he said, how could I kill

869
00:54:29.559 --> 00:54:32.199
<v Speaker 5>and rape so much because people, if they're afraid of me,

870
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:34.719
<v Speaker 5>they'd go the other way. He had a way of

871
00:54:34.880 --> 00:54:40.320
<v Speaker 5>just attracting people, albeit the majority of them prostitutes. He said,

872
00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:44.039
<v Speaker 5>nobody ever really feared him. The thing is, he said,

873
00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:47.239
<v Speaker 5>I never set out to kill everybody either. Some of

874
00:54:47.239 --> 00:54:49.960
<v Speaker 5>them I would let go. But as soon as they

875
00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:53.400
<v Speaker 5>started praying to God or telling me that I can't

876
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:55.639
<v Speaker 5>kill them because they have children at home, or don't

877
00:54:55.719 --> 00:54:58.559
<v Speaker 5>kill them because of this or that, then he said

878
00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:02.280
<v Speaker 5>they're dead automatically, he said, because that's one thing you

879
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:07.079
<v Speaker 5>never tell him is no. He does not appreciate anybody

880
00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:11.239
<v Speaker 5>telling him no to anything. So that's why I said

881
00:55:11.239 --> 00:55:13.840
<v Speaker 5>that he was just one of the most evil men ever.

882
00:55:16.039 --> 00:55:20.320
<v Speaker 7>Now, in this continuance of this evil you talked about

883
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:24.239
<v Speaker 7>Christopher Newton and they got together and they both exchanged

884
00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:29.679
<v Speaker 7>rape stories. Newton wanted to molest his cousin in exchange

885
00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:33.880
<v Speaker 7>incredibly that he said, listen, let me molest you and

886
00:55:33.880 --> 00:55:37.480
<v Speaker 7>I'll let you witness my execution. Wow, yes, privilege. So

887
00:55:38.840 --> 00:55:42.360
<v Speaker 7>what happens to Christopher Newton and sap.

888
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.360
<v Speaker 5>Are you saying what happened to them or what happens

889
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:48.880
<v Speaker 5>to them.

890
00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:51.119
<v Speaker 7>Or what happens between them.

891
00:55:52.280 --> 00:55:55.880
<v Speaker 5>Oh well, at the time they were housed in Mansfield,

892
00:55:56.360 --> 00:56:02.880
<v Speaker 5>that's when Mansfield was housing death Row, and you would

893
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:05.599
<v Speaker 5>be able to have a wreck partner when you went

894
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:09.519
<v Speaker 5>outside in Mansfield, meaning that you were paired up with somebody.

895
00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:16.400
<v Speaker 5>And those two were so deranged nobody else on death

896
00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:20.400
<v Speaker 5>Row would really hang around them because they were even

897
00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:23.280
<v Speaker 5>too monstrous for a lot of other people on death

898
00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:26.840
<v Speaker 5>Row with their thoughts and their actions. So those two

899
00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:32.360
<v Speaker 5>hit it off perfectly fine. And in fact, William sapp

900
00:56:33.239 --> 00:56:36.480
<v Speaker 5>had told me that Newton was the only person on

901
00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:40.559
<v Speaker 5>death Row that he got along with. And oddly enough,

902
00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:47.119
<v Speaker 5>there's an inmate in San Quentin that's also a pretty

903
00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:53.320
<v Speaker 5>nasty individual, Philip Jablonski. Those two know each other and

904
00:56:53.440 --> 00:56:57.599
<v Speaker 5>had corresponded to each other through attorneys in mail, so

905
00:56:58.199 --> 00:57:01.360
<v Speaker 5>for some reason they're able to tracked one another when

906
00:57:01.400 --> 00:57:06.440
<v Speaker 5>they when they have that type of behavior. And and

907
00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:12.239
<v Speaker 5>and those two again, they they they set themselves out

908
00:57:12.559 --> 00:57:15.599
<v Speaker 5>from the rest of them just from their actions and

909
00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.960
<v Speaker 5>their behavior alone. They are not that there's any normal

910
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:27.239
<v Speaker 5>on on death Row, but those two are far from

911
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:31.000
<v Speaker 5>being like most inmates that you would ever come across.

912
00:57:33.519 --> 00:57:39.599
<v Speaker 7>You include another case that's unbelievable. In this Frank Spisic,

913
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:46.119
<v Speaker 7>self proclaimed Nazi, and somebody once believes he's trapped in

914
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:50.199
<v Speaker 7>another gender's body, So tell us about the sex change

915
00:57:50.360 --> 00:57:53.360
<v Speaker 7>and Frank Spisic, Yeah.

916
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:59.079
<v Speaker 5>Frank, Frank Spizek was definitely a case study for a

917
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:04.559
<v Speaker 5>psychologist and I enjoyed that part of it because when

918
00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:09.679
<v Speaker 5>Frank Spizek was growing up, he was bullied a lot

919
00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:14.440
<v Speaker 5>because of his size and his demeanor, and he wanted

920
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:17.920
<v Speaker 5>to be become the next Adolf Hitler. He was about

921
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:20.760
<v Speaker 5>the same height, he would dress like him, had the

922
00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:24.280
<v Speaker 5>mustache and everything like that, and he wanted the notoriety

923
00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:29.360
<v Speaker 5>as the head of the Aryan Brotherhood. So his belief

924
00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:32.960
<v Speaker 5>was if long, if you were not a wasp, a

925
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:37.719
<v Speaker 5>white Anglo Saxon Protestant, then you had no business living.

926
00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:43.079
<v Speaker 5>And that's the belief that he subscribed to. So he

927
00:58:43.119 --> 00:58:47.760
<v Speaker 5>went to Cleveland State University one time and just killed

928
00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:52.159
<v Speaker 5>five people, wounded other ones, whether they were Jewish or

929
00:58:52.239 --> 00:58:55.280
<v Speaker 5>black or whatever. That's what he was aiming for minorities,

930
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:57.719
<v Speaker 5>because if you were Jewish, you were dead. If you

931
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:59.119
<v Speaker 5>were Black, you were dead, if you were gay, you

932
00:58:59.119 --> 00:59:02.960
<v Speaker 5>were dead. That was his thinking. They put him on

933
00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:06.320
<v Speaker 5>death row and he was actually on death row for

934
00:59:06.360 --> 00:59:09.320
<v Speaker 5>twenty eight years before his execution took place, so he

935
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:11.559
<v Speaker 5>was one of the longest ones to stay on death row.

936
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:16.840
<v Speaker 5>And this transformation that Frank Spizac went through to become

937
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:20.280
<v Speaker 5>France's Anne because then he discovered that he was a

938
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:23.599
<v Speaker 5>man trapped in a woman's body, so he changed his

939
00:59:23.679 --> 00:59:28.000
<v Speaker 5>name to France's Anne. He would have sex with other

940
00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:31.559
<v Speaker 5>inmates on death row on a regular basis because that

941
00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:35.880
<v Speaker 5>was it wasn't supposed to be allowed, but it was

942
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:42.119
<v Speaker 5>looked the other way, so he went from hating homosexuals

943
00:59:42.280 --> 00:59:46.519
<v Speaker 5>to being one. He ended up he went from hating

944
00:59:46.519 --> 00:59:52.000
<v Speaker 5>African Americans and killing them to having an African American pastor,

945
00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:57.039
<v Speaker 5>and then also wanting to become a woman himself. So

946
00:59:57.840 --> 01:00:01.239
<v Speaker 5>the dynamics of Spizac. I would liked to have talked

947
01:00:01.280 --> 01:00:05.559
<v Speaker 5>to him more, but he reached out to me towards

948
01:00:05.760 --> 01:00:08.599
<v Speaker 5>the end of his time and asked me to be

949
01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:13.000
<v Speaker 5>there for his execution, and I was the last person

950
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:17.840
<v Speaker 5>to ever speak to him before they took him over

951
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:22.239
<v Speaker 5>to the death chamber and proceeded with the execution. But

952
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:27.480
<v Speaker 5>he was different from starting out wanting to kill everybody

953
01:00:27.480 --> 01:00:30.920
<v Speaker 5>that wasn't a white Anglo Saxon Protestant to the end

954
01:00:31.000 --> 01:00:33.599
<v Speaker 5>of his life where he wanted to become a female

955
01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:42.760
<v Speaker 5>and had an African American pastor there to deliver spiritual

956
01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:45.880
<v Speaker 5>rights to him. At first, I thought Frank was going

957
01:00:45.960 --> 01:00:48.159
<v Speaker 5>to be very remorseful because of speaking to him in

958
01:00:48.199 --> 01:00:51.840
<v Speaker 5>the death cell. He seemed like a deer in headlights.

959
01:00:51.840 --> 01:00:55.000
<v Speaker 5>He couldn't believe that the day was here. Wanted people

960
01:00:55.000 --> 01:00:58.360
<v Speaker 5>to know that he wasn't that monster anymore. Gave me

961
01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:01.679
<v Speaker 5>his personal effects that were in the death cell, so

962
01:01:01.719 --> 01:01:05.559
<v Speaker 5>I was thinking that maybe, just maybe there was a

963
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.800
<v Speaker 5>sense of remorse there. But then when they strapped him

964
01:01:08.800 --> 01:01:11.480
<v Speaker 5>to the table and when you're allowed to make your

965
01:01:11.599 --> 01:01:15.800
<v Speaker 5>last and final statement, he gave it in German, which

966
01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:21.719
<v Speaker 5>it just infuriated the three witnesses on the victim's side

967
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.440
<v Speaker 5>because that was like rubbing salt into the wounds, because

968
01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.360
<v Speaker 5>he only ever tried to speak German before when he

969
01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:29.639
<v Speaker 5>was killing everybody, wanted to be the next Dadolf Hitler

970
01:01:29.639 --> 01:01:33.639
<v Speaker 5>and everything else. Fast forward twenty eight years later and

971
01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:36.800
<v Speaker 5>he's on his deathbed there and the last statement he

972
01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:41.880
<v Speaker 5>gives is in German, so that tells me he wasn't remorseful.

973
01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:47.679
<v Speaker 7>Right, certainly, Now you talk about the last person that

974
01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:52.519
<v Speaker 7>you've seen executed, which was February twenty fifteen, and Fred Trich,

975
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:58.199
<v Speaker 7>this is incredible to the story of his mother being

976
01:01:58.760 --> 01:02:02.320
<v Speaker 7>you know, I know mothers can be supportive, but tell

977
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:06.559
<v Speaker 7>us how supportive his mother was. And you know, sort

978
01:02:06.559 --> 01:02:10.199
<v Speaker 7>of the charm again, another charismatic sort of guy. But

979
01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:14.039
<v Speaker 7>again you stress, you got to remember what this guy's

980
01:02:14.039 --> 01:02:16.320
<v Speaker 7>crimes are. So tell us a little bit more about

981
01:02:16.679 --> 01:02:19.199
<v Speaker 7>Fred Triesch and his mom and his crimes.

982
01:02:20.519 --> 01:02:25.199
<v Speaker 5>So Fred Triesch was involved in a shootout where he

983
01:02:25.280 --> 01:02:28.360
<v Speaker 5>killed a store clerk and tried to kill some police officers.

984
01:02:28.599 --> 01:02:31.320
<v Speaker 5>And it had a history of violence in the past, of

985
01:02:31.559 --> 01:02:36.199
<v Speaker 5>robbing places and not killing the victims. But if they

986
01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:40.199
<v Speaker 5>were females, sometimes he would duct tape them and tie

987
01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:44.039
<v Speaker 5>them up, strip him naked first, tie them up, and

988
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:46.760
<v Speaker 5>then he would take light bulbs and he would insert

989
01:02:46.840 --> 01:02:51.360
<v Speaker 5>them into the vaginas of the females and then kick

990
01:02:51.440 --> 01:02:53.920
<v Speaker 5>them to where the light bulb would explode inside of

991
01:02:53.960 --> 01:02:57.440
<v Speaker 5>him before he would leave. So very deranged in that sense,

992
01:02:59.199 --> 01:03:02.679
<v Speaker 5>was very much an addict smoke crack on a regular basis.

993
01:03:03.320 --> 01:03:06.119
<v Speaker 5>He was on death row for eighteen years before he

994
01:03:06.199 --> 01:03:10.320
<v Speaker 5>was executed. Sixteen of those eighteen years he smoked crack

995
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:12.760
<v Speaker 5>still on death row on a regular basis, because there's

996
01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:15.840
<v Speaker 5>a lot of drugs, a lot of contraband that smuggled

997
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:21.480
<v Speaker 5>in to death row, mostly through the guards, whether it's

998
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:24.360
<v Speaker 5>alcohol or drugs or pornography or anything like that. But

999
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:26.760
<v Speaker 5>what you need to get in there is the money.

1000
01:03:27.039 --> 01:03:33.559
<v Speaker 5>And Fred's mother was his main supplier for money. So

1001
01:03:33.679 --> 01:03:37.800
<v Speaker 5>what she would do is she would take usually one

1002
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:40.880
<v Speaker 5>hundred dollars bill every time she would come to visit him,

1003
01:03:41.079 --> 01:03:44.679
<v Speaker 5>and she would put it in a condom and put

1004
01:03:44.719 --> 01:03:48.239
<v Speaker 5>it up inside of her vagina. And the reason that

1005
01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:50.559
<v Speaker 5>she would use the economistead of anything else is so

1006
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:55.239
<v Speaker 5>it couldn't be detected if they decided to put them

1007
01:03:55.239 --> 01:03:58.440
<v Speaker 5>through a machine to search them. So when she would

1008
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:01.119
<v Speaker 5>get in to see Fred, and she was allowed to

1009
01:04:01.119 --> 01:04:03.800
<v Speaker 5>buy certain things out of the vending machine for them,

1010
01:04:03.840 --> 01:04:06.679
<v Speaker 5>and she would buy him bag of chips in a pop.

1011
01:04:07.400 --> 01:04:10.920
<v Speaker 5>She would open up the chips. First, she would ask

1012
01:04:10.920 --> 01:04:12.760
<v Speaker 5>to go to the restroom and they would allow her to.

1013
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:15.960
<v Speaker 5>She would go into the restroom, she would take the

1014
01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:18.960
<v Speaker 5>condom out of her vagina with the hundred dollars bill

1015
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:21.400
<v Speaker 5>in there, and she would come out and then she

1016
01:04:21.400 --> 01:04:24.960
<v Speaker 5>would place that in the bag of chips when nobody

1017
01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:27.800
<v Speaker 5>was looking, and then give the bag of chips to Fred,

1018
01:04:28.400 --> 01:04:30.840
<v Speaker 5>and then Fred would eat the chips. He would swallow

1019
01:04:30.920 --> 01:04:34.000
<v Speaker 5>that condom that just came out of his mother. And

1020
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:38.760
<v Speaker 5>then later on in the evening, he would when he

1021
01:04:39.519 --> 01:04:42.000
<v Speaker 5>would go to the restroom, go to the bathroom, he

1022
01:04:42.039 --> 01:04:46.719
<v Speaker 5>would take that out of his stool, out of his feces,

1023
01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:50.039
<v Speaker 5>clean it off, take the crisp one hundred dollars bill

1024
01:04:50.079 --> 01:04:52.639
<v Speaker 5>out of there, and then that's what he would give

1025
01:04:52.679 --> 01:04:54.760
<v Speaker 5>to the guards in exchange for the crack that he

1026
01:04:54.800 --> 01:04:55.320
<v Speaker 5>would smoke.

1027
01:04:57.360 --> 01:05:02.360
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, incredible. Now this is the last person that you

1028
01:05:02.400 --> 01:05:05.719
<v Speaker 7>see executed, and you talk about that these are done,

1029
01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:10.119
<v Speaker 7>I believe on Tuesday, ten am on the dot. And

1030
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:13.199
<v Speaker 7>then you go to the death house. The prison, the

1031
01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:17.280
<v Speaker 7>entire prison is in lockdown. The inmates tell us about

1032
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:21.159
<v Speaker 7>this whole atmosphere, the inmates yelling and screaming. What are

1033
01:05:21.159 --> 01:05:24.559
<v Speaker 7>they yelling and screaming? Tell us about this entire process

1034
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:26.280
<v Speaker 7>where you go to the death house for the ten

1035
01:05:26.320 --> 01:05:27.280
<v Speaker 7>am execution.

1036
01:05:29.119 --> 01:05:33.400
<v Speaker 5>So all the executions take place in Lucasville, So I

1037
01:05:33.519 --> 01:05:37.000
<v Speaker 5>usually arrive at the penitentiary about six in the morning,

1038
01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:39.880
<v Speaker 5>maybe five thirty quarters six in the morning. I like

1039
01:05:39.920 --> 01:05:42.280
<v Speaker 5>to get there before the protesters or anything like that.

1040
01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:47.679
<v Speaker 5>And I'm processed in and I'm taken to the debriefing room.

1041
01:05:48.320 --> 01:05:51.960
<v Speaker 5>And since I'm with one of the one of the

1042
01:05:52.239 --> 01:05:55.719
<v Speaker 5>witnesses on the defendant side, I'm placed in a room

1043
01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:03.159
<v Speaker 5>with the defendant's attorneys and his clergy, and then in

1044
01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:07.400
<v Speaker 5>another debriefing room are the three witnesses for the victim side.

1045
01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:10.840
<v Speaker 5>We never come in contact with one another, so we're

1046
01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:14.239
<v Speaker 5>in there the entire time until it's time to walk

1047
01:06:14.280 --> 01:06:17.960
<v Speaker 5>across the yard the prison yard. They keep the prison

1048
01:06:18.000 --> 01:06:22.000
<v Speaker 5>on lockdown during an execution, but a lot of the

1049
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:25.000
<v Speaker 5>prisoners that have cells on the perimeter of the wall

1050
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:29.039
<v Speaker 5>of the yard anyways, can see right over to the deathhouse,

1051
01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:32.320
<v Speaker 5>which sits almost like in the middle. And as I'm

1052
01:06:32.360 --> 01:06:38.159
<v Speaker 5>being escorted over there, they're just yelling as loud as

1053
01:06:38.159 --> 01:06:41.039
<v Speaker 5>they can. I'm not even sure what they're yelling. It's

1054
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:44.920
<v Speaker 5>almost like when you see those movies with the gladiators

1055
01:06:44.920 --> 01:06:47.559
<v Speaker 5>and that, and it's in like a colossium almost, and

1056
01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:51.239
<v Speaker 5>you just everything is so surreal. The hearse is sitting

1057
01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:54.920
<v Speaker 5>there off to the side waiting for this to take place,

1058
01:06:55.159 --> 01:06:59.119
<v Speaker 5>and all of this noise is going on throughout the yard,

1059
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:03.039
<v Speaker 5>which they're yelling through their prison windows and their cell box.

1060
01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:08.199
<v Speaker 5>And then your escort right into the death house. If

1061
01:07:08.199 --> 01:07:11.320
<v Speaker 5>I go to the death cell, which is where I

1062
01:07:11.480 --> 01:07:14.239
<v Speaker 5>talk to the individual for the last time, it's a

1063
01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:18.920
<v Speaker 5>very tiny like cage almost. There's a bed, a toilet,

1064
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:22.719
<v Speaker 5>a little sink, and a writing desk and that's it.

1065
01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:25.519
<v Speaker 5>It's completely open that there's no curtains, there's no anything,

1066
01:07:26.199 --> 01:07:28.519
<v Speaker 5>and there are three guards that sit there right in

1067
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.920
<v Speaker 5>front of them twenty four to seven for every single

1068
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:34.280
<v Speaker 5>minute that they're there for the last thirty six hours,

1069
01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:37.400
<v Speaker 5>and every single thing that they do is recorded, whether

1070
01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:39.719
<v Speaker 5>it's they brush their teeth, they get up to make

1071
01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:42.800
<v Speaker 5>the bed, they whatever they reques, every single thing is recorded.

1072
01:07:43.400 --> 01:07:46.519
<v Speaker 5>So when I go over there, even whatever we're saying

1073
01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:51.159
<v Speaker 5>back and forth is dictated down. That's the death cell.

1074
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:55.719
<v Speaker 5>You go right around the corner from that, and it's

1075
01:07:56.079 --> 01:08:01.840
<v Speaker 5>the execution chambers right there where the witnesses are seated.

1076
01:08:01.880 --> 01:08:06.280
<v Speaker 5>There are three seats, a little partition that doesn't even

1077
01:08:06.280 --> 01:08:07.880
<v Speaker 5>go all the way up to the ceiling, and then

1078
01:08:07.960 --> 01:08:11.039
<v Speaker 5>three seats on the other side, and then you're sitting

1079
01:08:11.079 --> 01:08:15.559
<v Speaker 5>behind this glass window. The innatives made to walk in

1080
01:08:15.960 --> 01:08:19.760
<v Speaker 5>and they will strap him down to the table and

1081
01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:23.520
<v Speaker 5>then they will proceed to put the ivs in him

1082
01:08:23.680 --> 01:08:28.880
<v Speaker 5>and then allow him to make his final statement. And

1083
01:08:29.720 --> 01:08:32.720
<v Speaker 5>you will never see the executioner. They clear the execution

1084
01:08:32.880 --> 01:08:35.680
<v Speaker 5>room out. Only the warden and one other person stands

1085
01:08:35.720 --> 01:08:39.000
<v Speaker 5>in there. When the warden buttons his top coat button

1086
01:08:39.039 --> 01:08:43.560
<v Speaker 5>on his suit, that's the signal to the executioner to

1087
01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:47.000
<v Speaker 5>start the drugs, which is behind a brick wall that

1088
01:08:47.039 --> 01:08:49.199
<v Speaker 5>you never see, but you can see the drugs if

1089
01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:51.560
<v Speaker 5>you're looking anyways. You can see the drugs flowing right

1090
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:54.319
<v Speaker 5>down the tubes into the ivy and into the into

1091
01:08:54.359 --> 01:08:58.600
<v Speaker 5>the in melane on the table, so you can hear

1092
01:08:58.760 --> 01:09:02.560
<v Speaker 5>a pin drop there. There's n a of the executions

1093
01:09:02.560 --> 01:09:04.600
<v Speaker 5>I've been there, even the one that took over two hours,

1094
01:09:04.640 --> 01:09:08.479
<v Speaker 5>it was there was no noise other than the right

1095
01:09:08.560 --> 01:09:11.560
<v Speaker 5>I I the I'm writing the entire time on a

1096
01:09:11.600 --> 01:09:15.760
<v Speaker 5>tablet and the sound of my pen is almost deafening

1097
01:09:16.359 --> 01:09:20.960
<v Speaker 5>because it's so quiet and there and y you just

1098
01:09:22.359 --> 01:09:25.920
<v Speaker 5>I it's just a it's hard to explain the feeling

1099
01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:30.600
<v Speaker 5>itself because that it's it's different every time. It's not

1100
01:09:30.640 --> 01:09:34.279
<v Speaker 5>something that you could ever get used to when you're

1101
01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:37.720
<v Speaker 5>watching the life of a human being taken in right

1102
01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:39.640
<v Speaker 5>in front of you, especially if somebody you just got

1103
01:09:39.640 --> 01:09:42.800
<v Speaker 5>done talking to, you know, minutes before. It's not like

1104
01:09:42.840 --> 01:09:46.680
<v Speaker 5>there are uh in hospice care or they're terminally o'

1105
01:09:46.760 --> 01:09:50.720
<v Speaker 5>or whatever. These individuals were, for all intense purposes, alive

1106
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:53.960
<v Speaker 5>and well y ten minutes ago, and then you see

1107
01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:56.439
<v Speaker 5>them being strapped down and the life being taken from

1108
01:09:56.520 --> 01:09:57.319
<v Speaker 5>them right in front of you.

1109
01:09:57.640 --> 01:10:00.800
<v Speaker 7>So, now, with the.

1110
01:10:00.760 --> 01:10:01.920
<v Speaker 5>Relationships that you.

1111
01:10:04.600 --> 01:10:09.239
<v Speaker 7>Fostered with these inmates, they and you say, with the

1112
01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:12.479
<v Speaker 7>availability of arts and craft supplies that these guys had,

1113
01:10:12.520 --> 01:10:17.199
<v Speaker 7>and obviously time on their hands. And you feature a

1114
01:10:17.239 --> 01:10:21.560
<v Speaker 7>lot of very very talented artwork in this book. Why

1115
01:10:21.600 --> 01:10:26.039
<v Speaker 7>did you want to feature this artwork? And how important

1116
01:10:26.119 --> 01:10:30.800
<v Speaker 7>was artwork and the giving and the gifting of artwork

1117
01:10:31.039 --> 01:10:34.359
<v Speaker 7>to these inmates. Tell us about some of the stories

1118
01:10:34.399 --> 01:10:40.359
<v Speaker 7>of them imparting their personal, very very talented artwork to

1119
01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:41.319
<v Speaker 7>you as a gift.

1120
01:10:43.399 --> 01:10:46.840
<v Speaker 5>As most people know, nothing in life is really free,

1121
01:10:46.920 --> 01:10:50.199
<v Speaker 5>and in prison it's even more expensive. So nothing is

1122
01:10:50.319 --> 01:10:55.039
<v Speaker 5>free in prison. So for these individuals to send me

1123
01:10:55.760 --> 01:11:01.159
<v Speaker 5>paintings in drawings in wooden clocks that actually work, and

1124
01:11:01.399 --> 01:11:04.520
<v Speaker 5>leather goods and things of that nature and never ask

1125
01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:09.119
<v Speaker 5>for anything in return says a lot about the trust

1126
01:11:09.159 --> 01:11:13.960
<v Speaker 5>and the respect that they have for me. I didn't

1127
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.760
<v Speaker 5>want to put the artwork in the book to glorify

1128
01:11:16.880 --> 01:11:20.600
<v Speaker 5>them so much as I wanted to put the artwork

1129
01:11:20.600 --> 01:11:24.840
<v Speaker 5>in there to let the general public know that they

1130
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:32.159
<v Speaker 5>have this ability to be able to use woodworking tools

1131
01:11:32.199 --> 01:11:36.239
<v Speaker 5>and paints and supplies and things like that on death row,

1132
01:11:36.920 --> 01:11:43.279
<v Speaker 5>that this death row isn't a dark cave somewhere that

1133
01:11:43.520 --> 01:11:46.840
<v Speaker 5>you know, these inmates are very well taken care of.

1134
01:11:47.760 --> 01:11:51.680
<v Speaker 5>So they send me this artwork, and it has over

1135
01:11:51.720 --> 01:11:56.560
<v Speaker 5>the years mushroomed into this. I'm looking at my dining

1136
01:11:56.600 --> 01:12:00.119
<v Speaker 5>room table now and there's artwork laying on it I

1137
01:12:00.239 --> 01:12:03.039
<v Speaker 5>just received this week. You know, my son has books

1138
01:12:03.119 --> 01:12:05.560
<v Speaker 5>laying on top of some of them. My poor daughter,

1139
01:12:06.079 --> 01:12:08.560
<v Speaker 5>thank goodness, she lives in Texas right now, because her

1140
01:12:08.680 --> 01:12:12.000
<v Speaker 5>bed is literally right now coverage. You can't even see it.

1141
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:15.159
<v Speaker 5>There's probably fifteen paintings laying on her bed because I

1142
01:12:15.159 --> 01:12:18.680
<v Speaker 5>haven't had a chance to classify them and put them

1143
01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:23.520
<v Speaker 5>away yet, so I have hundreds of paintings and drawings.

1144
01:12:23.960 --> 01:12:27.800
<v Speaker 5>Has sent me from everywhere from California's Death Road and

1145
01:12:27.880 --> 01:12:33.840
<v Speaker 5>Nevada to Florida and especially Ohio, and these inmates they just,

1146
01:12:34.640 --> 01:12:38.920
<v Speaker 5>I think in my mind anyways, they want their name

1147
01:12:39.000 --> 01:12:43.720
<v Speaker 5>out there, they want their work displayed, and the overwhelming

1148
01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:49.279
<v Speaker 5>majority of them will do nature scenes, religious scenes have

1149
01:12:49.399 --> 01:12:53.199
<v Speaker 5>some type of religious undertone. And getting to know these

1150
01:12:53.239 --> 01:12:56.920
<v Speaker 5>inmates as well as I have, they have expressed me

1151
01:12:56.960 --> 01:13:00.920
<v Speaker 5>and told me that they would love to paint and

1152
01:13:01.039 --> 01:13:04.359
<v Speaker 5>draw what's really on their mind, what most of us

1153
01:13:04.399 --> 01:13:07.880
<v Speaker 5>would refer to as the dark art, the skulls a crossbones,

1154
01:13:08.399 --> 01:13:11.079
<v Speaker 5>they're victims and things like that, but they are afraid

1155
01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:14.840
<v Speaker 5>to do that because it would send the wrong message

1156
01:13:14.880 --> 01:13:18.079
<v Speaker 5>out to the public, especially when it comes to time

1157
01:13:18.079 --> 01:13:22.319
<v Speaker 5>for their appeals. So what they'll do is they'll paint

1158
01:13:22.880 --> 01:13:28.359
<v Speaker 5>religious scenes, animals scenes, nature scenes to try to trick

1159
01:13:28.439 --> 01:13:31.600
<v Speaker 5>people into thinking that they are changing while they're on

1160
01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:35.439
<v Speaker 5>death row, they were becoming a better person, when in

1161
01:13:35.479 --> 01:13:40.960
<v Speaker 5>reality they are just still that deceitful, that conniving that

1162
01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:43.359
<v Speaker 5>they even go so far as to think that way,

1163
01:13:43.439 --> 01:13:47.199
<v Speaker 5>so that they're careful of what they even draw or paint.

1164
01:13:47.279 --> 01:13:55.399
<v Speaker 7>For me, Wow, incredible. Now part of this book is

1165
01:13:55.560 --> 01:13:59.840
<v Speaker 7>your exploration what I didn't ask you what you did mention,

1166
01:14:00.079 --> 01:14:03.159
<v Speaker 7>but I didn't ask you specifically what your position on

1167
01:14:03.199 --> 01:14:06.399
<v Speaker 7>the death penalty was. But you said that really you

1168
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:10.119
<v Speaker 7>could only make a decision based on someone else's opinion

1169
01:14:10.199 --> 01:14:13.920
<v Speaker 7>who had never attended an execution that really didn't have

1170
01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:16.960
<v Speaker 7>the kind of experience that you thought was necessary to

1171
01:14:17.119 --> 01:14:20.640
<v Speaker 7>make a really good decision one way or another. You

1172
01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:25.159
<v Speaker 7>said you really couldn't. So after you've looked at this

1173
01:14:25.520 --> 01:14:29.600
<v Speaker 7>and analyze this with this incredible book, tell us about

1174
01:14:29.760 --> 01:14:32.720
<v Speaker 7>some of the things that you saw as the major

1175
01:14:32.840 --> 01:14:37.680
<v Speaker 7>issues to make a decision one way or another. What

1176
01:14:37.800 --> 01:14:40.800
<v Speaker 7>were those issues and how did you deal with them

1177
01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:43.439
<v Speaker 7>and what did you see in regards to those issues.

1178
01:14:45.119 --> 01:14:48.800
<v Speaker 5>Well, when I first started over nine years ago, I

1179
01:14:49.039 --> 01:14:54.000
<v Speaker 5>never once entertained the thought of writing a book. I

1180
01:14:54.079 --> 01:14:58.399
<v Speaker 5>just wanted to be able to have an educated opinion

1181
01:14:58.600 --> 01:15:02.520
<v Speaker 5>on whether I was four or against the death penalty.

1182
01:15:02.680 --> 01:15:06.920
<v Speaker 5>It came to a point where everybody kept asking me

1183
01:15:07.000 --> 01:15:09.279
<v Speaker 5>to write a book, and I felt that it was

1184
01:15:09.479 --> 01:15:12.680
<v Speaker 5>necessary after seeing everything that goes on on death Row.

1185
01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:16.800
<v Speaker 5>I felt that the general public they needed to be

1186
01:15:16.880 --> 01:15:19.600
<v Speaker 5>made aware of it because that's our tax dollars at work,

1187
01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:23.720
<v Speaker 5>and it needs to be more transparent. So when I

1188
01:15:23.760 --> 01:15:27.920
<v Speaker 5>decided to write the book, I had to stress to people,

1189
01:15:28.000 --> 01:15:31.800
<v Speaker 5>and I still stress to people that my opinion of

1190
01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:35.000
<v Speaker 5>the death penalty is irrelevant, and I don't try to

1191
01:15:35.039 --> 01:15:38.119
<v Speaker 5>sway anybody one way or the other, whether they're for

1192
01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:41.680
<v Speaker 5>or against it. The book, I outline it in a

1193
01:15:41.720 --> 01:15:45.319
<v Speaker 5>way that people can really make an educated opinion after

1194
01:15:45.359 --> 01:15:48.000
<v Speaker 5>they read the book, whether they are for the death

1195
01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:53.800
<v Speaker 5>penalty or not. And my conclusions after all of these years,

1196
01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:59.239
<v Speaker 5>what I have learned that I had no idea about

1197
01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:04.560
<v Speaker 5>was how flawed our system is because there's really no

1198
01:16:04.760 --> 01:16:09.479
<v Speaker 5>rhyme or reason on how we enact the ultimate form

1199
01:16:09.880 --> 01:16:14.079
<v Speaker 5>of punishment in the United States, meaning taking the life

1200
01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:19.079
<v Speaker 5>of another human being. So if we're constantly talking about

1201
01:16:19.279 --> 01:16:24.279
<v Speaker 5>universal healthcare, we're constantly making sure that we have universal

1202
01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:29.680
<v Speaker 5>law enforcement across the board. Our judicial system is universal,

1203
01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:33.479
<v Speaker 5>our educational system is universal across the board. We try

1204
01:16:33.520 --> 01:16:37.199
<v Speaker 5>to keep these certain standards all the way across the board.

1205
01:16:38.039 --> 01:16:40.880
<v Speaker 5>I would think that if we were going to take

1206
01:16:40.920 --> 01:16:44.079
<v Speaker 5>the life of another human being as a penalty. Then

1207
01:16:44.119 --> 01:16:46.319
<v Speaker 5>we would be universal across the board on that in

1208
01:16:46.359 --> 01:16:50.359
<v Speaker 5>an agreement, but in fact we're so far from it.

1209
01:16:51.600 --> 01:16:55.319
<v Speaker 5>Our states can't agree on the methods to use. They

1210
01:16:55.439 --> 01:16:58.319
<v Speaker 5>argue on whether it's going to be lethal injection or electrocution.

1211
01:16:58.880 --> 01:17:01.600
<v Speaker 5>They can't agree on the number of appeals. They can't

1212
01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:06.119
<v Speaker 5>agree on what crimes should put a person on death row,

1213
01:17:06.840 --> 01:17:09.760
<v Speaker 5>and they can't agree on how long they should stay there.

1214
01:17:10.439 --> 01:17:12.960
<v Speaker 5>I look at California and my inmates out there. You're

1215
01:17:13.000 --> 01:17:15.800
<v Speaker 5>looking at eight hundred people on death row, and you're

1216
01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:18.479
<v Speaker 5>more than likely to die in natural causes out there

1217
01:17:18.520 --> 01:17:22.359
<v Speaker 5>because they don't execute anybody where. Then you look at

1218
01:17:22.399 --> 01:17:25.920
<v Speaker 5>states like Texas and it seems like they run them

1219
01:17:25.920 --> 01:17:29.279
<v Speaker 5>through one after the other, and they probably average maybe

1220
01:17:29.319 --> 01:17:32.880
<v Speaker 5>one a month here in Ohio. Nothing last year, nothing

1221
01:17:32.920 --> 01:17:35.520
<v Speaker 5>this year. So there's no rhyme or reason. So I

1222
01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:40.239
<v Speaker 5>think the system is severely flawed. I think it's broken.

1223
01:17:41.159 --> 01:17:43.720
<v Speaker 5>I don't know if it's something that could be repaired

1224
01:17:43.800 --> 01:17:47.720
<v Speaker 5>because everything is so political, there's so many egos involved,

1225
01:17:49.079 --> 01:17:52.680
<v Speaker 5>and so that's what I set out to show people

1226
01:17:52.680 --> 01:17:58.399
<v Speaker 5>in the book was how the system really works, and

1227
01:17:58.439 --> 01:17:59.920
<v Speaker 5>there may be people that sit there and say, you know,

1228
01:18:01.039 --> 01:18:04.159
<v Speaker 5>that's horrible. There's no way I'd want tover support the

1229
01:18:04.199 --> 01:18:06.359
<v Speaker 5>death penalty. And then there's others that will say, you know,

1230
01:18:06.439 --> 01:18:08.359
<v Speaker 5>who cares. As long as you kill them, that's the

1231
01:18:08.439 --> 01:18:11.760
<v Speaker 5>ultimate end to it all. Make sure that they die,

1232
01:18:11.880 --> 01:18:15.520
<v Speaker 5>and however long it takes, they're fine with that. So again,

1233
01:18:15.800 --> 01:18:19.640
<v Speaker 5>you know, I'm not out there to sway them one

1234
01:18:19.680 --> 01:18:21.760
<v Speaker 5>way or the other, but I am out there to

1235
01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:25.000
<v Speaker 5>educate them in the sense that by the time they

1236
01:18:25.079 --> 01:18:28.119
<v Speaker 5>finished the book, they should at least be able to

1237
01:18:28.159 --> 01:18:31.920
<v Speaker 5>say with an educated mind anyways that they are either

1238
01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:32.960
<v Speaker 5>for it or against it.

1239
01:18:35.560 --> 01:18:39.000
<v Speaker 7>Now, part of this is the experience, the most I

1240
01:18:39.239 --> 01:18:43.800
<v Speaker 7>think the most important part of the equation is the

1241
01:18:43.920 --> 01:18:49.680
<v Speaker 7>reality for the families of the victims in Ohio. You say,

1242
01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:55.239
<v Speaker 7>carried out eighteen to twenty years later. So tell us again,

1243
01:18:55.279 --> 01:18:57.760
<v Speaker 7>you don't want to make you say, listen, I'm for

1244
01:18:57.800 --> 01:19:00.159
<v Speaker 7>the death penalty. I'm not for the death penalty, But

1245
01:19:00.640 --> 01:19:04.800
<v Speaker 7>tell us what the reality is for the families in this.

1246
01:19:04.960 --> 01:19:08.600
<v Speaker 5>You know, I I I feel a lot of sympathy

1247
01:19:08.680 --> 01:19:13.079
<v Speaker 5>for the families of the victims out there because again,

1248
01:19:15.159 --> 01:19:18.439
<v Speaker 5>these inmates have told me all of this stuff firsthand,

1249
01:19:18.880 --> 01:19:21.479
<v Speaker 5>So it's not like you know, I've read it somewhere

1250
01:19:21.479 --> 01:19:24.720
<v Speaker 5>else or anything. These are conversations that we've had verbally.

1251
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:28.079
<v Speaker 5>Their their conversation. I've they they've written down for me

1252
01:19:28.119 --> 01:19:32.760
<v Speaker 5>everything else. And you take these families and they're sold

1253
01:19:33.039 --> 01:19:37.119
<v Speaker 5>this bill of goods by a prosecutor who thinks that

1254
01:19:37.720 --> 01:19:41.520
<v Speaker 5>this the person that perpetrated these crimes should be placed

1255
01:19:41.520 --> 01:19:44.520
<v Speaker 5>on death row and put to death because they're gonna

1256
01:19:44.520 --> 01:19:48.439
<v Speaker 5>be locked away and they're gonna be housed in twenty

1257
01:19:48.479 --> 01:19:51.800
<v Speaker 5>three twenty four hours a day, no sunshine until they,

1258
01:19:51.880 --> 01:19:55.640
<v Speaker 5>you know, are executed. They're not told how well the

1259
01:19:55.640 --> 01:19:58.039
<v Speaker 5>inmates are going to be treated because the prosecutors themselves

1260
01:19:58.119 --> 01:20:01.600
<v Speaker 5>don't know it. They're not they're not telling the families

1261
01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:06.560
<v Speaker 5>that you have to relive this crime every single time

1262
01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:12.680
<v Speaker 5>they appeal, and how much stress is placed on those

1263
01:20:12.800 --> 01:20:17.760
<v Speaker 5>victims' families because of them reliving it, and the fact

1264
01:20:17.760 --> 01:20:21.399
<v Speaker 5>that the inmates on the inside love to control the

1265
01:20:21.479 --> 01:20:26.159
<v Speaker 5>victim's families on the outside, so by them constantly appealing

1266
01:20:26.359 --> 01:20:30.920
<v Speaker 5>and making them relive these crimes, the inmates own the

1267
01:20:31.000 --> 01:20:38.000
<v Speaker 5>victim's families until twenty years later. So if a family

1268
01:20:38.079 --> 01:20:42.119
<v Speaker 5>member of mine was killed, and that individual that prepartary

1269
01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:46.960
<v Speaker 5>crime is put on death row. There's no closure for

1270
01:20:47.039 --> 01:20:50.560
<v Speaker 5>me until at least twenty years later, when I have

1271
01:20:50.680 --> 01:20:54.199
<v Speaker 5>built up all of this anger waiting for the person

1272
01:20:54.239 --> 01:20:58.920
<v Speaker 5>to die, when in fact the whole time I should

1273
01:20:58.920 --> 01:21:02.600
<v Speaker 5>have been that person should have been out of my mind. Anyways,

1274
01:21:02.760 --> 01:21:05.159
<v Speaker 5>So they don't control me and I don't relive it.

1275
01:21:05.239 --> 01:21:08.039
<v Speaker 5>Whether you lock them up with life without pro and

1276
01:21:08.079 --> 01:21:11.079
<v Speaker 5>forget about them or whatever you need to do. But

1277
01:21:11.560 --> 01:21:15.760
<v Speaker 5>to rehash those crimes at every appeal and to worry

1278
01:21:16.039 --> 01:21:19.079
<v Speaker 5>constantly about you want to live long enough to watch

1279
01:21:19.119 --> 01:21:24.800
<v Speaker 5>them be executed, is a horrible way to live out

1280
01:21:24.840 --> 01:21:27.479
<v Speaker 5>your life for the victim's family, That.

1281
01:21:27.560 --> 01:21:32.279
<v Speaker 7>Is yes, And I think that is one of the

1282
01:21:32.399 --> 01:21:37.880
<v Speaker 7>convincing arguments that I have come to myself. Again, I

1283
01:21:37.880 --> 01:21:40.800
<v Speaker 7>don't want to weigh into it too much, but I

1284
01:21:40.880 --> 01:21:43.760
<v Speaker 7>wanted to say that when you look at the amount

1285
01:21:43.760 --> 01:21:48.800
<v Speaker 7>of time it takes again twenty years and you have

1286
01:21:48.880 --> 01:21:52.720
<v Speaker 7>to relive those appeals, and some of those appeals sometimes

1287
01:21:52.760 --> 01:21:58.319
<v Speaker 7>they get themselves lawyers that will trot out all the

1288
01:21:58.319 --> 01:22:04.359
<v Speaker 7>most outlandish and uh, you know, excuses for the crimes.

1289
01:22:04.880 --> 01:22:06.880
<v Speaker 7>And so what will happen is that not only will

1290
01:22:06.920 --> 01:22:10.439
<v Speaker 7>they relive it, but they will also have the threat

1291
01:22:10.600 --> 01:22:15.720
<v Speaker 7>of some of these outlandish excuses actually working in court,

1292
01:22:15.880 --> 01:22:19.199
<v Speaker 7>so again and reliving. But again you as you mentioned,

1293
01:22:19.239 --> 01:22:23.279
<v Speaker 7>these these killers would love to taunt the families from

1294
01:22:23.319 --> 01:22:28.000
<v Speaker 7>their position. You know, they're totally not remorseful, So there

1295
01:22:28.039 --> 01:22:30.720
<v Speaker 7>is that added aspect. But then they add the aspect

1296
01:22:30.760 --> 01:22:34.520
<v Speaker 7>of just the incredible cost. The incredible cost is those appeals.

1297
01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:37.119
<v Speaker 7>If you think taking care of your if you begrudge

1298
01:22:37.439 --> 01:22:40.000
<v Speaker 7>the prisoner for all the arts and crafts and the

1299
01:22:40.000 --> 01:22:43.079
<v Speaker 7>food and Jesu where we have to house these people, well,

1300
01:22:43.239 --> 01:22:48.520
<v Speaker 7>the appeals with the death penalty process itself increases that cost, doesn't.

1301
01:22:48.199 --> 01:22:53.960
<v Speaker 5>Its astronomical And you know, and again it was all

1302
01:22:54.000 --> 01:22:57.520
<v Speaker 5>a learning experience for me, and I believe it still

1303
01:22:57.600 --> 01:23:00.359
<v Speaker 5>is because I still deal with a lot of mates.

1304
01:23:01.119 --> 01:23:05.239
<v Speaker 5>Another learning part of this was you hear the attorneys

1305
01:23:05.279 --> 01:23:08.000
<v Speaker 5>all the time talk about how they are against the

1306
01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:11.479
<v Speaker 5>death penalty, that it is cruel and unusual punishment, that

1307
01:23:11.520 --> 01:23:14.920
<v Speaker 5>it goes against humanity and everything else. They'll say that

1308
01:23:15.039 --> 01:23:19.960
<v Speaker 5>in public, but you get them indoors in that debriefing room.

1309
01:23:20.239 --> 01:23:23.119
<v Speaker 5>They're a whole different, breeded character. That's their bread and

1310
01:23:23.159 --> 01:23:26.800
<v Speaker 5>butter that's their paycheck. They need that death penalty because

1311
01:23:26.800 --> 01:23:29.439
<v Speaker 5>they need to defend these guys in order to get paid.

1312
01:23:30.319 --> 01:23:36.520
<v Speaker 5>And the hypocrisy that is out there is just it's stunning.

1313
01:23:38.880 --> 01:23:44.399
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, it's incredible. And the interesting thing, or one of

1314
01:23:44.439 --> 01:23:48.560
<v Speaker 7>the more interesting things about this book, Watch Me Die,

1315
01:23:48.880 --> 01:23:54.600
<v Speaker 7>is the opinions of these some of these inmates that

1316
01:23:54.640 --> 01:23:58.359
<v Speaker 7>you spoke to, their opinion of the death penalty. What

1317
01:23:58.520 --> 01:24:02.399
<v Speaker 7>was the pick one or two of these inmates that

1318
01:24:02.800 --> 01:24:05.800
<v Speaker 7>had the most cavalier you say, one of them was

1319
01:24:05.960 --> 01:24:12.000
<v Speaker 7>dying to die, But was there any really interesting and

1320
01:24:12.199 --> 01:24:17.279
<v Speaker 7>cavalier attitudes towards the death penalty and the imposing of

1321
01:24:17.359 --> 01:24:19.119
<v Speaker 7>it by any of the inmates.

1322
01:24:19.920 --> 01:24:22.439
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I mean Chris Newton was the only one that

1323
01:24:22.640 --> 01:24:26.479
<v Speaker 5>was really just anxious to be executed. All of my

1324
01:24:26.600 --> 01:24:31.680
<v Speaker 5>other inmates, they are absolutely against the death penalty because

1325
01:24:31.720 --> 01:24:37.199
<v Speaker 5>they have over the years, whether they have convinced themselves

1326
01:24:37.520 --> 01:24:42.359
<v Speaker 5>or they have been brainwashed by other inmates surrounding them,

1327
01:24:42.760 --> 01:24:45.119
<v Speaker 5>that you know, a sin is a sin is a sin.

1328
01:24:45.239 --> 01:24:47.640
<v Speaker 5>So even though I may have killed five or ten

1329
01:24:47.720 --> 01:24:52.760
<v Speaker 5>or fifteen people, the state killing me is just as bad.

1330
01:24:53.319 --> 01:24:56.239
<v Speaker 5>So why does the state think that it should be

1331
01:24:56.319 --> 01:25:01.680
<v Speaker 5>okay to kill me when that that goes against everything

1332
01:25:01.760 --> 01:25:06.600
<v Speaker 5>that everybody stands for. So they are really against the

1333
01:25:06.600 --> 01:25:09.720
<v Speaker 5>death penalty. They think that the State of Ohio is

1334
01:25:11.319 --> 01:25:15.000
<v Speaker 5>in other states now are doing an injustice by killing

1335
01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:18.239
<v Speaker 5>them because it's just it's murder to them, and that

1336
01:25:18.359 --> 01:25:21.520
<v Speaker 5>makes the State of Ohio know better than what they are.

1337
01:25:22.000 --> 01:25:25.680
<v Speaker 5>So that's across the board. That's just about all the inmates,

1338
01:25:27.199 --> 01:25:29.880
<v Speaker 5>and it's uh. I was shocked to hear it the

1339
01:25:29.920 --> 01:25:33.680
<v Speaker 5>first few times, but anymore I expect to hear it

1340
01:25:33.760 --> 01:25:37.079
<v Speaker 5>because that's that's exactly how they all think about it.

1341
01:25:37.119 --> 01:25:41.279
<v Speaker 5>Is you putting me to death makes you the state

1342
01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:44.920
<v Speaker 5>just as guilty of murder as as I am, even

1343
01:25:44.960 --> 01:25:52.000
<v Speaker 5>though I killed multiple victims and they m a lot.

1344
01:25:53.119 --> 01:25:58.520
<v Speaker 7>Right before we close out our interview tonight, you talked

1345
01:25:58.520 --> 01:26:04.079
<v Speaker 7>about your writing part partner and Douglas Shear, and you

1346
01:26:04.319 --> 01:26:07.119
<v Speaker 7>talked about his tell us a little bit about the

1347
01:26:07.600 --> 01:26:11.840
<v Speaker 7>project that you guys have endeavored to take upon involving

1348
01:26:12.000 --> 01:26:15.359
<v Speaker 7>what we mentioned was the search for When you talked

1349
01:26:15.399 --> 01:26:18.800
<v Speaker 7>about the maps and locations, tell us a little bit

1350
01:26:18.840 --> 01:26:21.640
<v Speaker 7>more about this ongoing investigation that you're involved with.

1351
01:26:23.000 --> 01:26:28.039
<v Speaker 5>So I have a few maps that detail exact locations

1352
01:26:28.199 --> 01:26:32.039
<v Speaker 5>of a few bodies from one of the inmates in

1353
01:26:32.119 --> 01:26:39.920
<v Speaker 5>Ohio's death row, and they're very detailed maps. The FBI

1354
01:26:40.319 --> 01:26:43.680
<v Speaker 5>and I had worked closely together at the time to

1355
01:26:43.760 --> 01:26:47.880
<v Speaker 5>get these maps. They agree that the bodies are probably

1356
01:26:47.920 --> 01:26:52.000
<v Speaker 5>there at those locations, but again with the politics that

1357
01:26:52.000 --> 01:26:54.960
<v Speaker 5>we had mentioned before involved, they just don't seem to

1358
01:26:55.000 --> 01:26:58.640
<v Speaker 5>be too ambitious to go out and do anything about

1359
01:26:58.680 --> 01:27:01.319
<v Speaker 5>it because I think they'd read spend their time looking

1360
01:27:01.319 --> 01:27:06.520
<v Speaker 5>for Jimmy Hoffa and other things. So Doug and I

1361
01:27:06.600 --> 01:27:11.079
<v Speaker 5>decided to collaborate together to see what we can do

1362
01:27:11.359 --> 01:27:17.039
<v Speaker 5>to investigate where the locations are and if in fact

1363
01:27:17.119 --> 01:27:24.720
<v Speaker 5>they are there, to recruit the necessary individuals to locate

1364
01:27:24.760 --> 01:27:29.680
<v Speaker 5>these bodies for the purposes of closure to the victims

1365
01:27:29.720 --> 01:27:30.520
<v Speaker 5>families out there.

1366
01:27:32.359 --> 01:27:36.000
<v Speaker 7>Oh that's fantastic. I want to thank you very much

1367
01:27:36.479 --> 01:27:38.560
<v Speaker 7>Bill for coming on the program and talking about this

1368
01:27:38.640 --> 01:27:41.319
<v Speaker 7>incredible book Watch Me Die. For those that we might

1369
01:27:41.359 --> 01:27:44.600
<v Speaker 7>want to correspond with you or find out more about

1370
01:27:44.600 --> 01:27:47.560
<v Speaker 7>your work, tell us about what you have as in

1371
01:27:47.640 --> 01:27:50.359
<v Speaker 7>terms of website, Facebook, how tell us a little bit

1372
01:27:50.399 --> 01:27:50.720
<v Speaker 7>about that.

1373
01:27:51.720 --> 01:27:55.399
<v Speaker 5>I'm on Facebook, very active on there. It's just under

1374
01:27:55.479 --> 01:27:58.479
<v Speaker 5>Bill Kimberland spelled k I M B E R l

1375
01:27:58.479 --> 01:28:02.079
<v Speaker 5>I N it'll it'll have a cover of my book

1376
01:28:02.119 --> 01:28:04.159
<v Speaker 5>Watch Me Die. Because there's a couple of different Bill

1377
01:28:04.239 --> 01:28:08.680
<v Speaker 5>Kimberlain's out there and they can order the book through

1378
01:28:08.800 --> 01:28:13.840
<v Speaker 5>Mygamazon dot com or Barnes and Noble or Books a

1379
01:28:13.880 --> 01:28:16.960
<v Speaker 5>Million on their websites or Green Ivy Publishing. So the

1380
01:28:17.000 --> 01:28:20.920
<v Speaker 5>book's readily available out there. The last I checked it

1381
01:28:20.960 --> 01:28:23.640
<v Speaker 5>was in seven different countries so far it had been

1382
01:28:23.760 --> 01:28:30.199
<v Speaker 5>purchased in right and then my actual email, which is

1383
01:28:30.560 --> 01:28:36.640
<v Speaker 5>BW Kimbo at b X dot net and I always

1384
01:28:36.680 --> 01:28:38.720
<v Speaker 5>respond to everybody.

1385
01:28:39.159 --> 01:28:42.199
<v Speaker 7>Well, that sounds fantastic. I want to thank you Bill

1386
01:28:42.239 --> 01:28:45.560
<v Speaker 7>for coming on and talking about Watch Me Die. Thank

1387
01:28:45.600 --> 01:28:48.039
<v Speaker 7>you very much, and you have a great evening and

1388
01:28:49.079 --> 01:28:51.119
<v Speaker 7>hope to talk to you again in the near future.

1389
01:28:51.520 --> 01:28:51.880
<v Speaker 7>Thank you.

1390
01:28:52.039 --> 01:28:54.359
<v Speaker 5>Thank you for having me on your show. I appreciate it.

1391
01:28:55.439 --> 01:28:56.680
<v Speaker 7>Thank you very much, Bill, goodnight.

1392
01:28:57.199 --> 01:29:01.279
<v Speaker 5>Thanks Thanks