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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 6: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good Evening, Watch Me Die is a first hand account
Speaker 7: of Ohio's death row and the state's execution process. Unlike
Speaker 7: any other doctor Kimberland, a trained clinical psychologist and professor
Speaker 7: of psychology, goes beyond the prison walls and into the
Speaker 7: world of death row inmates, no bars, no shackles, and
Speaker 7: no chains. Kimberland spends time one on one with some
Speaker 7: of Ohio's worst killers to learn about their life on
Speaker 7: death row. Then he watches them die. You will see
Speaker 7: how these inmates think as Kimberland not only spends time
Speaker 7: interviewing them, but also eats meals with them and, in
Speaker 7: some cases if the last person to speak to them
Speaker 7: before they are executed. You'll also be walked through the
Speaker 7: full execution process, starting from when the inmate is placed
Speaker 7: on suicide watch and going until they are pronounced dead
Speaker 7: on the execution table. You will see the flaws in
Speaker 7: the system and be able to judge for yourself if
Speaker 7: the death penalty as it is utilized today is really
Speaker 7: worth pursuing. This book promises to take you into the
Speaker 7: depths of death Row and into the minds of the
Speaker 7: killers like no one else has ever been able to
Speaker 7: do before. You will see their artwork, their writings, and
Speaker 7: their mindset as they prepare for their final days on
Speaker 7: this planet. The book that we're featuring this evening is
Speaker 7: Watch Me Die with my guest author and professor, doctor
Speaker 7: Bill Kimberland. Welcome to the program, and thank you for
Speaker 7: agreeing to this interview, doctor Bill Kimberland.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me on here. It's an honor, Thank.
Speaker 7: You, Thank you very much. This is an incredible, like
Speaker 7: I said when I spoke to you earlier, incredible perspective
Speaker 7: that it's just amazing the information that you have presented
Speaker 7: here in this book. Let's talk about your background as
Speaker 7: a psychologist before we talk about why you decided to
Speaker 7: study death row. What is your background before you got
Speaker 7: to that point, and then you can tell us how
Speaker 7: you came to that decision that you wanted study death row.
Speaker 7: Tell us why, but give us your background before that
Speaker 7: that prepared you to even be in a position that
Speaker 7: you made the query on death row. So tell us
Speaker 7: how your background that puts you in a position to
Speaker 7: ask the question to want to study death row.
Speaker 5: Sure. So when I first graduated with a bachelor's degree
Speaker 5: in criminal justice and sociology, and I became an adult
Speaker 5: Probation pro officer here in Ohio, and I always knew
Speaker 5: I wanted to continue my education so while I was
Speaker 5: a probation pro officer, I received my master's degree from
Speaker 5: Heidelberg University in counseling, so I entered the counseling arena
Speaker 5: at the same time as being a probation officer. But
Speaker 5: what I always planned on doing was becoming a college professor,
Speaker 5: and I always knew that it would take years to
Speaker 5: get to that level because of the degrees that you'd
Speaker 5: normally have to obtain, which would be at the doctorate level.
Speaker 5: So when I was doing the counseling and the probation,
Speaker 5: I was constantly working on my degrees, and I eventually
Speaker 5: obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology. So it's all of
Speaker 5: the human sciences social sciences background, which is what I've
Speaker 5: always been interested in, and I've always interacted with well,
Speaker 5: and mostly of those that are at risk. The probationers
Speaker 5: are all fellon convicted of felons, and then my drug
Speaker 5: and alcohol counseling days with those individuals, and then moving
Speaker 5: into the clinical psychology more into the study of the mind.
Speaker 5: And one thing I always told myself was I would
Speaker 5: never be the type of professor that would teach just
Speaker 5: book smarts only, meaning I wanted to be able to
Speaker 5: learn as much as I could first hand. And some
Speaker 5: of the biggest debated issues in a lot of the
Speaker 5: social classes are things such as the legalization of drugs
Speaker 5: here in America, our gun laws, whether or not we
Speaker 5: need to relax them, abortion rights, and then of course
Speaker 5: capital punishment. And I've been fortunate enough to travel to
Speaker 5: a number of different countries to see what their drug
Speaker 5: laws are like, and growing up around guns and things
Speaker 5: of that nature, I knew enough about those areas. But
Speaker 5: when it came to capital punishment, everything that I had
Speaker 5: read literature wise pointed me in the direction to find
Speaker 5: out that none of the authors had ever really visited
Speaker 5: death Row, let alone witnessed an execution. So I thought
Speaker 5: this is a good starting point to make sure that
Speaker 5: I didn't fall in that trap of only teaching what
Speaker 5: I've read. So then I dove into death Row head first,
Speaker 5: I guess, to see what I could learn, and then
Speaker 5: doing so, I just happened to call the Attorney General's
Speaker 5: office at the time, and I asked them to put
Speaker 5: me on a list or in the lottery to witness
Speaker 5: an execution, because I, like everyone else, had no idea
Speaker 5: how this process worked, and they hung up on me,
Speaker 5: and I thought, well, that was kind of rude. So
Speaker 5: I called back and I said, you know, I'm hoping
Speaker 5: that we just got disconnected, but I'm really serious about
Speaker 5: getting in to see an execution. I teach on this
Speaker 5: stuff and I need to know more about it. And
Speaker 5: the young lady on the other end said, you know,
Speaker 5: nobody can just witness an execution. The governor of Ohio,
Speaker 5: I'd never witnessed one, the Attorney General's never witnessed one.
Speaker 5: The Ohio Revised Code set forth the procedures in which
Speaker 5: a person can witness an execution, and only three people
Speaker 5: on each side can ever witness an execution out of
Speaker 5: thirty million people in Ohio. So she said, But since
Speaker 5: I've never been asked this question before, I'm going to
Speaker 5: send you the law and the list of the people
Speaker 5: that are scheduled to be executed in the state of
Speaker 5: Ohio over the next year or two. See if you
Speaker 5: can find any loopholes and have at it. So I
Speaker 5: got the list, I got the law. I got together
Speaker 5: with some attorney friends of mine that i'd always worked with,
Speaker 5: one who's a judge now, and found some loopholes. Decided
Speaker 5: to contact a couple of the inmates, and that's how
Speaker 5: I became involved in death row. And it is just
Speaker 5: mushroomed from there.
Speaker 7: Now you mentioned that one of the key assets that
Speaker 7: you did have was a personal personal friend, and then
Speaker 7: that you mentioned now a judge Roger Bennett, and he
Speaker 7: was assistant Accounty prosecutor and he was the person who
Speaker 7: gave you the number of the Attorney General. So even
Speaker 7: he didn't really know that how impossible. It seemed insurmountable,
Speaker 7: you know, a task that you had to overcome. So
Speaker 7: when you had this, there was only going to be
Speaker 7: the strict criteria for anybody to be able to witness
Speaker 7: this execution. How then did you go ahead? And you
Speaker 7: talk about Roger Barnett and his connection again, if you
Speaker 7: had a connection to an inmate, tell us some of
Speaker 7: that criteria. Under those conditions you could get to witness
Speaker 7: an execution.
Speaker 5: And it was.
Speaker 7: Luckily that through Roger Barnett you did get that opportunity.
Speaker 7: So tell us how that worked with Roger.
Speaker 5: Okay, So Roger and I have been best of friends
Speaker 5: for we grew up together and at the time he
Speaker 5: was an assistant prosecutor. Has since been elected as Common
Speaker 5: Police Court judge, and he said because he had worked
Speaker 5: with the Attorney General so close, he gave me literally
Speaker 5: the direct number at the time. It was Betty Montgomery.
Speaker 5: So I had that contact number. And I was also
Speaker 5: fortunate enough to know that one of the inmates that
Speaker 5: was listed on the sheet that was given to me
Speaker 5: given the dates of the executions, he happened to be
Speaker 5: related to one Chris Newton by marriage and he said
Speaker 5: that he could vouch for me if need be. So
Speaker 5: I decided to write Chris Newton explaining who I was
Speaker 5: and friends of Roger and he had. He decided to
Speaker 5: write back. Chris was a very unique character when it
Speaker 5: comes to somebody psychologically studying them, and one of the
Speaker 5: first letters I got back was I would love for
Speaker 5: you to come down and talk to me face to
Speaker 5: face and in fact tell Roger I no longer want
Speaker 5: to kill him, because they always wanted to kill Roger,
Speaker 5: but I no longer want to kill him. So if
Speaker 5: he wants to come down and visit me, he can
Speaker 5: too before my execution. So I went down first, met
Speaker 5: with him a couple of times, took Roger down. Next thing,
Speaker 5: you know, Chris Newton actually asked me to be there
Speaker 5: for his execution.
Speaker 7: Wow. Now let's just go back a little bit, because
Speaker 7: you do set the stage on on Ohio's uniqueness in
Speaker 7: terms of how they You also mentioned in the book
Speaker 7: if I'm not correct, did thirty three or thirty five
Speaker 7: states still have the death penalty?
Speaker 5: Correct? Thirty five states? It gets kind of confusing. Thirty
Speaker 5: five states can enact the death penalty right now, thirty
Speaker 5: three of those states have active death penalties. Being two
Speaker 5: of those states they abolish the death penalty, but they
Speaker 5: kept their death rows active. And then, of course, the
Speaker 5: federal government here in the United States supersedes all of
Speaker 5: our states constitutions. So in essence, you could be put
Speaker 5: to death by the federal government if you're convicted of
Speaker 5: a capital murder offense in a state that does not
Speaker 5: have the death penalty, and it happens on federal property.
Speaker 7: Right now, tell us about the unique Like I said,
Speaker 7: you're not comparison comparing every other state in the United States,
Speaker 7: but talk about what you saw as what you thought
Speaker 7: was quite unique in the treatment of death row prisoners.
Speaker 7: And also explain that the main locations in this is Chilicothe,
Speaker 7: Chilicothe and also Lucasville, and tell us about their role
Speaker 7: in this death penalty in terms of location.
Speaker 5: Okay, well, when I first started, obviously my very first
Speaker 5: trip to death Row, I was nervous as can be
Speaker 5: because I did not know what to expect. You know,
Speaker 5: it's not a very transparent area within our criminal justice system,
Speaker 5: meaning that there's a lot of secretive stuff that goes
Speaker 5: on with death Row. They just don't let the public
Speaker 5: know a whole lot. So I was really going into
Speaker 5: it blind, and once I got onto death Row, I
Speaker 5: was assuming, based on some of the TV shows that
Speaker 5: I had seen over the years, that these guys would
Speaker 5: be handcuffed and shackled, they'd be locked down in their
Speaker 5: cells twenty three hours a day, they'd pump sunlight into them,
Speaker 5: you know, everything like that. Lo and behold, I get
Speaker 5: to death Row, which is now housed in Chillicothe, Ohio.
Speaker 5: Prior to that, when I first started, we had two
Speaker 5: different locations, one in Mansfield, Ohio and one in Youngstown, Ohio.
Speaker 5: So when I started, I was actually going to two
Speaker 5: different death rows. We have since combined them put them
Speaker 5: all in Chilicothe, Ohio. But in order for them to
Speaker 5: be executed, they're transferred about thirty six hours before their
Speaker 5: execution down to Lucasville, which is on the border of
Speaker 5: Ohio and Kentucky, and that's where the death house sits.
Speaker 5: But going back to the actual death row, I was
Speaker 5: completely and utterly shocked to see how much freedom our
Speaker 5: death row inmates here in Ohio get and the amenities
Speaker 5: that they have access to. So every single person that
Speaker 5: I've ever dealt with on Ohio's death row actually would
Speaker 5: prefer to be on death row than in general population
Speaker 5: because they have so much more freedom. They're out of
Speaker 5: their cells most of the day, their wrec time inside
Speaker 5: and out. They have access they have TVs in their cells.
Speaker 5: They have access to handheld video games MP three players
Speaker 5: so they can select music. They have access to computers.
Speaker 5: They have their own typewriters. They can order food boxes
Speaker 5: of whatever kind of food that they desire. They can
Speaker 5: order different tennisues, whether they want Nikes or Converts or Adidas.
Speaker 5: They're allowed three fully nude pictures sent to them every
Speaker 5: single day, as long as there are no pictures depicting penetration.
Speaker 5: And the art they have tons of art supplies that
Speaker 5: they can order. So these inmates, the worst of the worst,
Speaker 5: are treated very very well. That doesn't even include the
Speaker 5: medical care that they get because Ohio will literally go
Speaker 5: to extraordinary measures to keep them alive in order to
Speaker 5: execute them. So there's one of my inmates who's been
Speaker 5: on death row whose medical bills have exceeded over a
Speaker 5: million dollars, and they have done this in order to
Speaker 5: keep him alive so they can executehim. So when I
Speaker 5: get to death Row, I was thinking that these guys
Speaker 5: would be in a cage, locked up, and then I
Speaker 5: would talk through them through a telephone or through glass.
Speaker 5: But instead, when I started in Mansfield, it was just
Speaker 5: a room that we were in with no no handcuffs
Speaker 5: on or anything. And now in chili coffee, no handcuffs,
Speaker 5: no shackles. Depending on when the visitations taking place or
Speaker 5: the interview, we can walk up and down death Row
Speaker 5: free to ourselves and discuss anything we want. We can
Speaker 5: eat out of the vending machines unless it's towards the
Speaker 5: end of their sentence. So the week before then they
Speaker 5: would allow us to order food to be delivered to
Speaker 5: the prison. So one of the last guys I witnessed,
Speaker 5: I think we ordered eight dollars worth of Italian food
Speaker 5: and they actually delivered it to us right there to
Speaker 5: death row. So I was, I was taken aback. I
Speaker 5: guess thats how easy our death row inmates have it.
Speaker 5: It's very quiet there, it's very clean. Everybody gets along.
Speaker 5: I've never seen any fights, no yelling or anything like that.
Speaker 5: So I guess I was. I was just completely caught
Speaker 5: off guard on that.
Speaker 7: Now, let's before we talk about the various methods of
Speaker 7: execution that you outline in the in your book in
Speaker 7: different parts of America. And also you outline the type
Speaker 7: of execution of course, that they're going to utilize. They
Speaker 7: did utilize in Ohio and they utilize today in Ohio.
Speaker 7: Add a couple very interesting facts about the behavior of
Speaker 7: the pharmaceutical companies very interesting as well. But let's talk
Speaker 7: about the worst of the worst. For example, the very first,
Speaker 7: I believe, very first person that you spoke to was
Speaker 7: Chris Newton. So tell us what Chris Newton was noted
Speaker 7: for and the peculiar behavior that he exhibited.
Speaker 5: So, Chris was a Satan worshiper, and he had very
Speaker 5: little regard for human life, and he knew enough that
Speaker 5: he did not fit into society, but he hated prison
Speaker 5: so he was actually in prison on low level felonies
Speaker 5: breaking and entering robbing, not armed robbery or anything like that.
Speaker 5: And he just knew that he could not survive in
Speaker 5: the outside world without doing a lot of harm to
Speaker 5: a lot of people. But he didn't want to live
Speaker 5: in prison either, so he decided that he would use
Speaker 5: the state as a method of suicide. Because one thing
Speaker 5: about the death row inmates, they can kill anybody but themselves,
Speaker 5: which is a whole different topic. So Chris decided that
Speaker 5: he was going to be put in protective custody. He
Speaker 5: was going to lie to the guards telling him that
Speaker 5: the gangs were after him. In the entire time he
Speaker 5: was plotting what he was going to do. So the
Speaker 5: guards agreed to put him in protective custody, and they
Speaker 5: were walking him back there and he was looking in
Speaker 5: the different cells to see who was around, and he
Speaker 5: spotted one individual. He had no idea who he was,
Speaker 5: but he looked weak, and he told the guard that
Speaker 5: guy and I we get along. You can sell me
Speaker 5: with him, and the guards were like fine, So they
Speaker 5: decided to bunk him in this other inmate together, and
Speaker 5: Chris knew that that's the person he was going to kill.
Speaker 5: He just needed something to spark it. So he told
Speaker 5: that inmate. The next night, listen, you and I after
Speaker 5: lights out, we're going to have sex. And the guy said, no,
Speaker 5: that's that's not anything that I'm interested in. And Chris
Speaker 5: told me that's the spark that he needed. So when
Speaker 5: the lights went out, he decided to beat and strangle
Speaker 5: this guy to death, and in doing so he got
Speaker 5: so sexually aroused and turned on that he started rubbing
Speaker 5: the blood all over him and drinking it, and then
Speaker 5: proceeded to masturbate all over him, and then when he
Speaker 5: was finished, he sat down and ate a pair until
Speaker 5: the guards arrived the next morning, because nobody heard anything
Speaker 5: because they were a protective custody and the doors are
Speaker 5: kind of solid, and I have the crime scene photos
Speaker 5: of Christine and they're laughing, covered completely naked in blood,
Speaker 5: and it was just it was bizarre to listen to
Speaker 5: him tell me the story. And then he went on
Speaker 5: to tell the court that that murder he did was
Speaker 5: to get him the death penalty, and that if the
Speaker 5: court would not give him the death penalty, he was
Speaker 5: going to continue to murder until they did so the
Speaker 5: blood would be on their hands, not his, and that's
Speaker 5: how he ended up getting the death penalty.
Speaker 7: Incredible. What was the most incredible thing about the interview
Speaker 7: with Christopher.
Speaker 5: Newton Probably every time that I interviewed him, which was
Speaker 5: numerous times, you could sense that he could not wait
Speaker 5: to die, and he just could not the date of
Speaker 5: his execution would not get there soon enough. And I
Speaker 5: remember distinctly sitting in the room with him all alone
Speaker 5: and were laughing and talking about something because he was
Speaker 5: a very very humorous, funny individual. He was, from a
Speaker 5: psychologist standpoint, great to interview. So we were sitting there
Speaker 5: and again no guards or anything were around us. The
Speaker 5: door opens after about being in there, maybe a half
Speaker 5: hour or forty five minutes, and Chris was he had
Speaker 5: tobacco in his mouth and we were talking, and the
Speaker 5: case manager or the guard at the time, looks at
Speaker 5: Newton and says, Newton, I should write you up for that.
Speaker 5: You know, you're not about to be chewing in here.
Speaker 5: And Chris stopped, with the coldest eyes of a stare
Speaker 5: that I've ever seen, looked directly at him and told
Speaker 5: him that, yeah, I know, and I've always wanted to
Speaker 5: kill you too. And the only reason I haven't killed
Speaker 5: you is because I want to die on my date
Speaker 5: of execution. But so help me God, I will kill
Speaker 5: you right now if you don't get out of this room.
Speaker 5: And it must have stunned the guard enough because he
Speaker 5: looked right back.
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Speaker 5: Details, bak, it means he's all yours and just left
Speaker 5: and shut the door. And then Chris turned right back
Speaker 5: to me and jokingly said, now, what were we talking about?
Speaker 5: And I said the first thing that came to mind.
Speaker 5: I said, you were talking about killing him, not me,
Speaker 5: And he laughed it off and we went back to
Speaker 5: our interview. But Chris was very, very bizarre in nature
Speaker 5: because of the fact that he just did not have
Speaker 5: any regard for human life at all, no remorse, would
Speaker 5: kill again, wanted to kill and rape all the way
Speaker 5: to his execution date because he was naming people that
Speaker 5: he wished he would have killed. And in fact, his
Speaker 5: execution took two hours from start to finish, and he
Speaker 5: actually had to get up off the table when they
Speaker 5: were trying to put the ivs in at one time
Speaker 5: to go use the restroom, and they allowed him to
Speaker 5: do that, and then he came back and hopped back on.
Speaker 7: Incredible.
Speaker 5: Yeah. He never argued, I'm sorry, glad, no go ahead.
Speaker 5: He never resisted, He never argued with anybody. Even during
Speaker 5: his execution when they were sticking the needles in his legs,
Speaker 5: in his arms, and by his neck to find the veins,
Speaker 5: he was very talkative to them, laughing at everything. I
Speaker 5: just it was one of the most bizarre events I've
Speaker 5: ever witnessed in my life.
Speaker 7: Now, talk about the Ohio's uniqueness in terms of their
Speaker 7: choice of execution. Tell us a little bit about just
Speaker 7: the brief history that you have about it, and how
Speaker 7: do they execute people today? Tell if you do take
Speaker 7: us through that in the book, take us through that.
Speaker 5: Sure. So, Ohio used to have the electric chair, and
Speaker 5: then once everybody started going to lethal injection, Ohio was
Speaker 5: one of the states that bali the electric chair and
Speaker 5: went solely with lethal injection. And since that time period
Speaker 5: that all the states that have decided to use the
Speaker 5: primary method of lethal injection, Ohio included. We've run into
Speaker 5: problems with the drug manufacturers because a lot of the
Speaker 5: drugs are manufactured in other countries, be it over in
Speaker 5: Europe or in Canada, places like that. That do not
Speaker 5: believe in the death penalty. And these medications, all of
Speaker 5: the medications that are used to put to death these
Speaker 5: inmates are supposed to be utilized to save lives in
Speaker 5: surgeries and things of that nature. So when the drug
Speaker 5: manufacturers get wind of an execution that has taken place
Speaker 5: with their drugs, then they no longer will supply that drug.
Speaker 5: So of the executions that I've witnessed in Ohio, the
Speaker 5: multiple executions, even though they've all been lethal injections, all
Speaker 5: have been different lethal injections. The very first one was
Speaker 5: the three drug cocktail, which was the sodium pentethal, the
Speaker 5: pancureum bromide, and the potassium chloride. That was the very
Speaker 5: first one. Then they stopped producing the sodium pentathal for
Speaker 5: that purpose, and then they went to a two drug cocktail.
Speaker 5: And now we're down to a wonder drug cocktail. And
Speaker 5: I've seen them all but over the last two years.
Speaker 5: In twenty fourteen and now I'm sorry, twenty fifteen and
Speaker 5: now twenty sixteen, the state of Ohio has put in
Speaker 5: a moratorium. They've stopped all executions for those two years
Speaker 5: in order to try to figure out the complexity of
Speaker 5: this drug issue, or do we need to bring back
Speaker 5: a different method of executions. And that's where we're at
Speaker 5: right now. So there were no executions in twenty fifteen
Speaker 5: and there'll be none in twenty sixteen solely because of
Speaker 5: the lethal injection the drugs that are used, and that
Speaker 5: the laws in the state of Ohio will not allow
Speaker 5: a compounding drug company or pharmacy to make the drugs
Speaker 5: if they're manufactured elsewhere already. So it's one of those
Speaker 5: weird laws that Ohio has on the books that prevents
Speaker 5: us from making the drugs. Even though here in Sindeski, Ohio,
Speaker 5: we have a compounding pharmacy that is more than willing
Speaker 5: to make the drugs and donate them because I have
Speaker 5: spoken to them. The law will not allow that since
Speaker 5: those drugs are already manufactured elsewhere.
Speaker 7: Yeah, incredible, still political you do include and I'll just
Speaker 7: mention this. The found that's fascinating is the gas chambers
Speaker 7: used in three states of believe, firing squad is in
Speaker 7: three states, hanging is in two states, and the electric
Speaker 7: chair is in eight states. And you say predominantly everybody
Speaker 7: more there's more so believes in the lethal injection. So
Speaker 7: say there's many botched executions where the government has actually sued.
Speaker 7: Tell us just a little bit about that.
Speaker 5: So sometimes understand that every method that is used with
Speaker 5: lethal injection, there is no doctors that are involved, and
Speaker 5: there are no nurses that are involved, no anesthesiologists, because
Speaker 5: the oath that they take is to always do no harm.
Speaker 5: So therefore they can never be a part of an execution.
Speaker 5: So in Ohio and many other states, what they'll use
Speaker 5: is em like licensed d mts in the prison guards
Speaker 5: will take place, you know, help out with the procedures
Speaker 5: and things like that. So oftentimes they can't find the
Speaker 5: veins because they're not really educated enough in that area
Speaker 5: to do it. Not to mention, as I've watched them
Speaker 5: very closely, a lot of them are shaking quite a
Speaker 5: bit because I think at that point they realize that
Speaker 5: they're trying to insert a needle that's going to be
Speaker 5: taking the life of a human being, and I think
Speaker 5: that finally gets to them psychologically. So sometimes they missed
Speaker 5: the veins. There's actually an inmate that in Ohio's prison
Speaker 5: right now that I dealt with in the past that
Speaker 5: a good friend of mine, Doug shere, who's head of
Speaker 5: the Vindication Project. He and I are working closely together
Speaker 5: on this inmate because he's the only one to ever
Speaker 5: survive an execution in modern history, and the reason being
Speaker 5: it took over two hours. They stuck him eighteen different times,
Speaker 5: eighteen different places, started to try to push the drugs through,
Speaker 5: and that the drugs never entered the mains, so the
Speaker 5: governor had to call because there is a phone inside
Speaker 5: the execution chamber that rang. After two hours, they halted
Speaker 5: the execution. They were assuming the attorneys anyways that they
Speaker 5: would not be allowed to execute him again because it
Speaker 5: would fall under double jeopardy, And just about a month
Speaker 5: and a half ago, the Supreme Court ruled that since
Speaker 5: the drugs never really entered the veins, then the execution
Speaker 5: process didn't start. So he's been put back on the
Speaker 5: list to be executed. And I, from the psychological standpoint,
Speaker 5: am dealing with him because I've never talked to anybody
Speaker 5: that has gone through the entire step before of saying
Speaker 5: your final goodbyes, having your last meal, making your last statement,
Speaker 5: giving everything away, your last will and testament, surviving it
Speaker 5: and didn't have to do it all over again. So
Speaker 5: I'm going at it from that standpoint, from look looking
Speaker 5: at the psychological aspect, and the only two people that
Speaker 5: he will deal with are Doug and myself. So I'm
Speaker 5: fortunate enough to have that ability to still go down
Speaker 5: on death row and deal with the individuals like that.
Speaker 5: But there are some states just last month, like the
Speaker 5: state of Virginia, they had the governor had to sign
Speaker 5: a bill to either bring back the electric chair or
Speaker 5: try to find a different method of execution because of
Speaker 5: the way the lethal injections have been going. And there
Speaker 5: are a few other states that want to join, like
Speaker 5: Utah and bring back the firing squad as well, because
Speaker 5: it seems to be more humane way to do it
Speaker 5: and it's a lot less political when it comes to
Speaker 5: the manufacturing of the drugs.
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Speaker 7: true murder. Now, when we last left off, I wanted
Speaker 7: to ask this question, other than being a psychologist, what
Speaker 7: do you think it is that you bring to these inmates.
Speaker 7: What is the reason why these inmates on death row?
Speaker 7: Why would they speak to you and why were they
Speaker 7: so candid with you? What is it about you and
Speaker 7: your position and these inmates that makes it that they
Speaker 7: want to confide in you.
Speaker 5: I would say that based on the way that I
Speaker 5: respect them as a person, because they have done some
Speaker 5: very very horrible things. They've committed horrible murders and rapes,
Speaker 5: some of them multiple victims, and there are a lot
Speaker 5: of people out there, victims' families that have every right
Speaker 5: to hate them and want them dead, But they have
Speaker 5: not done anything wrong to me. So when I go
Speaker 5: and talk to them, I dress very casual. I don't
Speaker 5: go by doctor Kimberland. It's by you know, it's first name,
Speaker 5: Basis Bill. I talk to them and with them, not
Speaker 5: at them or above them. I'll joke with them, I'll
Speaker 5: laugh with them. I of course utilize a lot of
Speaker 5: the skills I learned in the field of psychology. With
Speaker 5: the least amount of questions I ask them, the more
Speaker 5: they'll tell me. So I don't come at them in
Speaker 5: an invasive way, and I treat them as a person,
Speaker 5: and I think that's what they like about me the most,
Speaker 5: just it's another human to human contact that isn't an
Speaker 5: authority figure, that isn't going to look down upon them
Speaker 5: or judge them the entire time that I'm interviewing them.
Speaker 5: And I don't do it in a clinical setting. I
Speaker 5: do it in their setting. So when I'm on death row,
Speaker 5: I'm in their house, not in my office, and I
Speaker 5: think that makes them a little bit more relaxed as well.
Speaker 5: So that's what got them to open up in the beginning.
Speaker 5: Now it has mushroomed so much because that my name
Speaker 5: gets passed along on not just Ohio's death row now
Speaker 5: but all over and now more and more of them
Speaker 5: reach out to me because they feel that I'm a
Speaker 5: stand up guy. I never lie to them whatever they
Speaker 5: ask me, because I already know they know the answers
Speaker 5: to They know where I live, they know where my
Speaker 5: wife teaches, they know where my daughter lives, my son
Speaker 5: where he goes to school. They know all of this
Speaker 5: typically before they even reach out to me. So when
Speaker 5: they ask me those questions, really they're trying to see
Speaker 5: if I'm going to stumble and lie to them, and
Speaker 5: of course I would never do that. So when they
Speaker 5: see that I'm very upfront and honest with them, then
Speaker 5: they return that favor to me.
Speaker 7: Now, when you talked about horrible crimes, speaking of horrible crimes,
Speaker 7: probably the worst criminal killer that you spoke to, at
Speaker 7: least among the worst, was Anthony's Soul, and he's been
Speaker 7: featured on this program with a fine book by Steve
Speaker 7: Miller called Nobody's Women Eleven Victims. I believe the women
Speaker 7: victims a particularly disgusting and bruesome killer. Tell us about
Speaker 7: your correspondence, how it came to be, and tell us
Speaker 7: more about your correspondence. What was it contained? What do
Speaker 7: you have to say, Anthony soul.
Speaker 5: So I checked my mail one day and it was
Speaker 5: a short letter, not even maybe a paragraph, and it
Speaker 5: was from death Row and it said Anthony Sowell on it.
Speaker 5: So I opened it and it said, flat out, dear
Speaker 5: mister CHIMBERLAIND, my name's Tony Sowell. I hear you're a
Speaker 5: stand up guy on death Row and a good person
Speaker 5: to talk to you. I'm going to have you checked
Speaker 5: out and if you check out, I'll talk to you.
Speaker 5: I'll be in touch. And that's all it said. So
Speaker 5: I found that to be, you know, quite interesting, especially
Speaker 5: since you know he is, you know, a high profile
Speaker 5: serial killer at least here in Ohio. And it wasn't
Speaker 5: long after that that I that I received another letter
Speaker 5: from him, and it stated that I did check out,
Speaker 5: and it included the forms for me to fill out
Speaker 5: to come visit him, and he said come down anytime
Speaker 5: and we'll talk. So I went down a number of times.
Speaker 5: The thing with Anthony, though, is he's a very controlling individual,
Speaker 5: and when I received a letter, because of the position
Speaker 5: that I am in both as psychologist and then working
Speaker 5: for the courts before and still a relationship with the
Speaker 5: courts now, of course, the FBI was kind of interested
Speaker 5: in seeing if he was going to admit to any
Speaker 5: other victims out there instead of just the eleven, because
Speaker 5: they found all eleven victims that he kept in his home,
Speaker 5: in his backyard and everything. But I was under the impression,
Speaker 5: as many others, that there are probably more victims out there.
Speaker 5: But Anthony was very new to death row and is
Speaker 5: still new to death row, so there's no incentive for
Speaker 5: him to talk about other victims. But he's a very
Speaker 5: intelligent individual. Was in the United States Marine Corps, was married,
Speaker 5: had a child. The wife after he had divorced her,
Speaker 5: was killed in a factory accident. He would not give
Speaker 5: me his daughter's name, but told me a lot about them,
Speaker 5: and we talked for hours and hours each time. But
Speaker 5: he always wanted to be in control. He wanted me
Speaker 5: to write a book specifically about him, not anybody else
Speaker 5: on death Row. He wanted me to only have his artwork,
Speaker 5: not any other inmates artwork, and he wanted me to
Speaker 5: pay for certain things, and of course I wouldn't agree
Speaker 5: to any of those terms. So we didn't really part
Speaker 5: well when it was all said and done, because I
Speaker 5: didn't give him the glory that he wanted. Because the
Speaker 5: serial killers that I deal with are the mass murders.
Speaker 5: Their biggest fears to be forgotten. And that's Anthony Sowell's
Speaker 5: biggest fear. He does not want to be forgotten. He
Speaker 5: wants to be known as the most notorious serial killer
Speaker 5: in the state of Ohio. And for some reason, Ohio
Speaker 5: has a lot of high profile killers because this is
Speaker 5: you know, our state is where Charles Manson was born,
Speaker 5: and Jeffrey Dahmer lived and was born, and then of
Speaker 5: course Anthony Sowell and that. So he just wants to
Speaker 5: be known to every but he is the most notorious
Speaker 5: serial killer, and I would not glorify him in the
Speaker 5: way that he won it. So I interviewed him countless times.
Speaker 5: Then I ended up cutting times with him because I
Speaker 5: was getting nowhere with him.
Speaker 7: You include a couple other a few other examples, and
Speaker 7: we'll go through them, and just I'll ask you to
Speaker 7: talk about them. James of Philiogy, Yes, talk about him.
Speaker 5: Very charismatic individual. In fact, he went to the college
Speaker 5: that I teach at, got his associates degree there, went
Speaker 5: on and got his bachelor's degree, so he's very educated.
Speaker 5: He was also ex military and hunted down his ex
Speaker 5: wife when he found out she was getting engaged with
Speaker 5: somebody else and broke in and chased her down to
Speaker 5: the neighbors and killed her in the closet, and tried
Speaker 5: to kill the neighbor, but the gun wouldn't go off
Speaker 5: and he escape. They ended up catching him and subsequently
Speaker 5: he was given the death penalty. But the only one
Speaker 5: that I've ever had that had such a huge following.
Speaker 5: People liked James philology, and in fact, after his execution
Speaker 5: they had a funeral and awake in his hometown and
Speaker 5: there was something like two hundred people that actually attended it.
Speaker 5: I was invited to go, but when one of my
Speaker 5: inmates are executed and that that file is closed and
Speaker 5: I'm done with that individual, so I didn't attend it.
Speaker 5: But he would right correspond with me on a daily basis.
Speaker 5: Was very concerned about my well being every time I
Speaker 5: came to death Row. Wanted to know if I needed
Speaker 5: anything on the outside, and this was all the way
Speaker 5: up to his executions, so he was probably the only
Speaker 5: one although he was never remorseful, He never admitted to
Speaker 5: being remorseful, acted remorseful. He's the only one of all
Speaker 5: of my inmates that he could literally be sitting right
Speaker 5: next to you and be one of your best friends
Speaker 5: and you would never realize that he did the things
Speaker 5: that he did. Very very very charismatic individual. So I
Speaker 5: spent a lot of time with James before he was
Speaker 5: finally executed.
Speaker 7: Now you include another gentleman, Stephen Hugely, and it was
Speaker 7: an incredible amount of letters. So tell us what was
Speaker 7: contained in the letters and correspondence from Stephen Stephen Hugely.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's Stephen Hugely And he was a character. He
Speaker 5: was actually he's actually on death row in Tennessee. So
Speaker 5: when I started doing my research in Ohio, somehow he
Speaker 5: got my name in Tennessee and started writing me and
Speaker 5: then wanted me to exclusive rights to all of his
Speaker 5: stories and everything else. A very needy individual. Though he
Speaker 5: would write letters sometimes, you know, like one hundred hundred
Speaker 5: and fifty pages long. I'd have to have bound in
Speaker 5: order to not lose them. And he had shot and
Speaker 5: killed his mother, shot her fifteen times, threw over the bridge,
Speaker 5: was given a life sentence in Tennessee, turned around, killed
Speaker 5: another inmates over some money that was owed, again given
Speaker 5: another life sentence, and then his prison psychologist. He did
Speaker 5: not like his prison psychologists, and that individual talked down
Speaker 5: to him, treated him very disrespectful, and he decided that
Speaker 5: he was just going to kill him and then that
Speaker 5: way there they'd have to give him the death penalty.
Speaker 5: So he waited till his next appointment, and he had
Speaker 5: a shank and he stabbed him sixty four times because
Speaker 5: he said that he figured if he put enough holes
Speaker 5: in him, they couldn't plug them all. So so Stephen
Speaker 5: and he was actually just in the news last year
Speaker 5: again because of having a cell phone in on death
Speaker 5: row and he had taken pictures and had them downloaded
Speaker 5: to a dating website. And there's Stephen in a gated
Speaker 5: community on a dating website and he's on death row
Speaker 5: while waiting his execution. So they're very brilliant behind bars.
Speaker 7: Sure you have called William Sap the most evil man
Speaker 7: you have ever encountered. Tell us why.
Speaker 5: William Sap is in my opinion from a psychological standpoint,
Speaker 5: professional and personal opinion, pure evil he is. When I
Speaker 5: went to talk to him, he had reached out to
Speaker 5: me to ask if I wanted to see him, and
Speaker 5: I said sure, just based on the letter that he
Speaker 5: had written me. He seemed very intriguing. He said that
Speaker 5: nobody would ever really be able to stomach his stories,
Speaker 5: so I found that as a challenge. I went down
Speaker 5: there to death Row and the guards very rarely ever
Speaker 5: talked to me, but when they found out I was
Speaker 5: talking to Sap, they were stunned because he not only
Speaker 5: does he not talk to anybody, but he was suspected
Speaker 5: at the time of killing seventy four victims. And they
Speaker 5: asked me, am I going to be able to find
Speaker 5: out because the FEDS would be very interested, And at
Speaker 5: the time I said, I have no idea. I've never
Speaker 5: met the guy. I don't know if we're going to
Speaker 5: talk about the weather or what. So I interviewed him
Speaker 5: a few times and then finally got to the point
Speaker 5: where I said, listen, you know, I hear you're good
Speaker 5: for seventy four murders. He looked at me right in
Speaker 5: the eye. She said, now, absolutely not. He said, anybody
Speaker 5: that ever kills anybody, they never forget killing a person.
Speaker 5: He said, anybody ever tells you that they can't remember
Speaker 5: certain details or certain things, then they're lying. He said,
Speaker 5: I've killed fifty people, not a single one more, and
Speaker 5: I know we're all fifty of Marat. They have some
Speaker 5: of the bodies. I know where the rest of the marat.
Speaker 5: And he would just go on about how he would
Speaker 5: rape and torture these victims before he killed them. His
Speaker 5: thinking was if you are ten years older, ten years
Speaker 5: old or older, than you're fair game for sex as
Speaker 5: long as you appeared to be ten years old or older,
Speaker 5: because in his warped mind, he didn't want to rape
Speaker 5: a child. He had a ten year old to him,
Speaker 5: wasn't a child. His first brush with the law was
Speaker 5: when he was a young child. He lit his biological
Speaker 5: mom on fire tried to kill her. So that set
Speaker 5: that whole dynamic in motion. And in fact, I have
Speaker 5: three maps to three different bodies, one in Ohio, two
Speaker 5: in Florida that Doug share and I are also going
Speaker 5: to collaborate on to locate those bodies because working with
Speaker 5: the FBI, and they agree that they believe that the
Speaker 5: maps are really good. But like the drug thing, when
Speaker 5: it comes to lethal injection. There's also politics involved in
Speaker 5: law enforcements, so unfortunately the bodies are of prostitutes and
Speaker 5: are of no significant value, I'm assuming to the federal government.
Speaker 5: So unfortunately, there are families out there that are missing
Speaker 5: loved ones, and we're hoping to locate those and have
Speaker 5: some closure for some families. And in Williams's case, he
Speaker 5: will give me the rest of them after we locate these,
Speaker 5: because he's upset that we haven't dug these bodies up already.
Speaker 5: He's coming to the end of his time on death row,
Speaker 5: and I think he's going to start getting more and
Speaker 5: more desperate to see what he can do to extend
Speaker 5: his stay on death row instead of being executed. But
Speaker 5: as far as evil, I've never in my life interviewed
Speaker 5: anybody more evil than him. To see it in his
Speaker 5: eyes how much he loves to rape and kill. And
Speaker 5: in fact, he has a couple daughters that he has
Speaker 5: not seen since he's been on death row. And I
Speaker 5: asked him one time we were sitting there eating and
Speaker 5: I said, well, what would you say to your daughters
Speaker 5: if I brought them here? You say, you have no compassion,
Speaker 5: no feelings, nothing, You don't know what love really is.
Speaker 5: You have two wonderful daughters. What would you say to
Speaker 5: them if I brought them here? And he thought for
Speaker 5: a few minutes, looked me dead in me, he said,
Speaker 5: I wouldn't say anything to him. I'd kill them. If
Speaker 5: they were sitting here right now, I would kill them.
Speaker 5: One of my biggest regrets is I didn't kill them
Speaker 5: before I came to Death Row. And it's just, you know,
Speaker 5: the looking his eyes, you know the tone of his voice,
Speaker 5: how calm, cool and collective he is. It's just it's
Speaker 5: like he looks right through you. So, yeah, that's by
Speaker 5: far the most evil person I've ever interviewed him.
Speaker 7: Well, when you're talking about fifty people, that's incredible too.
Speaker 7: So that is a number, just conveniently or interestingly, just
Speaker 7: one above the ridge the Green River Killer. Yeah, you always,
Speaker 7: you said, he always kept the momental from each victim,
Speaker 7: so a little trophy from each victim. And also enjoyed
Speaker 7: sex after death with these corpses, right.
Speaker 5: Correct, you know? He in fact, he says, and I
Speaker 5: believe hi, because I've had other inmates that have admitted
Speaker 5: to being NECROPHILIAX having sex with the victims afterwards. But
Speaker 5: he thinks it's a common type of action, because I
Speaker 5: would When I have him about this, I said, you
Speaker 5: would literally have sex with them a day or so later,
Speaker 5: And he said, well, yeah, wouldn't you. So in their
Speaker 5: warped mind, what they think they're doing is normal. They
Speaker 5: think us as abnormal. He admitted that the longest he
Speaker 5: had ever went was five days, where he went back
Speaker 5: and had sex with the body five days later. He
Speaker 5: would always take something from them. It might be a nipple,
Speaker 5: it might be a part of an ear, a finger,
Speaker 5: it could be jewelry, it could be anything like that,
Speaker 5: but he always kept something, and his mo was he believes,
Speaker 5: at least this is how he classifies himself as a cleaner.
Speaker 5: He would always clean up afterwards to try to not
Speaker 5: leave a crime scene. He would dispose of the bodies,
Speaker 5: usually around railroad tracks or anywhere that there was a
Speaker 5: significant dump or landfill or anything close by, so when
Speaker 5: the decomposition of the body started, that smell would not
Speaker 5: stand out from any of the other smells. So he
Speaker 5: was very cold, very calculated, and even admitted that he
Speaker 5: was a very nice looking guy, very trustworthy, and lived
Speaker 5: a double life. Otherwise, he said, how could I kill
Speaker 5: and rape so much because people, if they're afraid of me,
Speaker 5: they'd go the other way. He had a way of
Speaker 5: just attracting people, albeit the majority of them prostitutes. He said,
Speaker 5: nobody ever really feared him. The thing is, he said,
Speaker 5: I never set out to kill everybody either. Some of
Speaker 5: them I would let go. But as soon as they
Speaker 5: started praying to God or telling me that I can't
Speaker 5: kill them because they have children at home, or don't
Speaker 5: kill them because of this or that, then he said
Speaker 5: they're dead automatically, he said, because that's one thing you
Speaker 5: never tell him is no. He does not appreciate anybody
Speaker 5: telling him no to anything. So that's why I said
Speaker 5: that he was just one of the most evil men ever.
Speaker 7: Now, in this continuance of this evil you talked about
Speaker 7: Christopher Newton and they got together and they both exchanged
Speaker 7: rape stories. Newton wanted to molest his cousin in exchange
Speaker 7: incredibly that he said, listen, let me molest you and
Speaker 7: I'll let you witness my execution. Wow, yes, privilege. So
Speaker 7: what happens to Christopher Newton and sap.
Speaker 5: Are you saying what happened to them or what happens
Speaker 5: to them.
Speaker 7: Or what happens between them.
Speaker 5: Oh well, at the time they were housed in Mansfield,
Speaker 5: that's when Mansfield was housing death Row, and you would
Speaker 5: be able to have a wreck partner when you went
Speaker 5: outside in Mansfield, meaning that you were paired up with somebody.
Speaker 5: And those two were so deranged nobody else on death
Speaker 5: Row would really hang around them because they were even
Speaker 5: too monstrous for a lot of other people on death
Speaker 5: Row with their thoughts and their actions. So those two
Speaker 5: hit it off perfectly fine. And in fact, William sapp
Speaker 5: had told me that Newton was the only person on
Speaker 5: death Row that he got along with. And oddly enough,
Speaker 5: there's an inmate in San Quentin that's also a pretty
Speaker 5: nasty individual, Philip Jablonski. Those two know each other and
Speaker 5: had corresponded to each other through attorneys in mail, so
Speaker 5: for some reason they're able to tracked one another when
Speaker 5: they when they have that type of behavior. And and
Speaker 5: and those two again, they they they set themselves out
Speaker 5: from the rest of them just from their actions and
Speaker 5: their behavior alone. They are not that there's any normal
Speaker 5: on on death Row, but those two are far from
Speaker 5: being like most inmates that you would ever come across.
Speaker 7: You include another case that's unbelievable. In this Frank Spisic,
Speaker 7: self proclaimed Nazi, and somebody once believes he's trapped in
Speaker 7: another gender's body, So tell us about the sex change
Speaker 7: and Frank Spisic, Yeah.
Speaker 5: Frank, Frank Spizek was definitely a case study for a
Speaker 5: psychologist and I enjoyed that part of it because when
Speaker 5: Frank Spizek was growing up, he was bullied a lot
Speaker 5: because of his size and his demeanor, and he wanted
Speaker 5: to be become the next Adolf Hitler. He was about
Speaker 5: the same height, he would dress like him, had the
Speaker 5: mustache and everything like that, and he wanted the notoriety
Speaker 5: as the head of the Aryan Brotherhood. So his belief
Speaker 5: was if long, if you were not a wasp, a
Speaker 5: white Anglo Saxon Protestant, then you had no business living.
Speaker 5: And that's the belief that he subscribed to. So he
Speaker 5: went to Cleveland State University one time and just killed
Speaker 5: five people, wounded other ones, whether they were Jewish or
Speaker 5: black or whatever. That's what he was aiming for minorities,
Speaker 5: because if you were Jewish, you were dead. If you
Speaker 5: were Black, you were dead, if you were gay, you
Speaker 5: were dead. That was his thinking. They put him on
Speaker 5: death row and he was actually on death row for
Speaker 5: twenty eight years before his execution took place, so he
Speaker 5: was one of the longest ones to stay on death row.
Speaker 5: And this transformation that Frank Spizac went through to become
Speaker 5: France's Anne because then he discovered that he was a
Speaker 5: man trapped in a woman's body, so he changed his
Speaker 5: name to France's Anne. He would have sex with other
Speaker 5: inmates on death row on a regular basis because that
Speaker 5: was it wasn't supposed to be allowed, but it was
Speaker 5: looked the other way, so he went from hating homosexuals
Speaker 5: to being one. He ended up he went from hating
Speaker 5: African Americans and killing them to having an African American pastor,
Speaker 5: and then also wanting to become a woman himself. So
Speaker 5: the dynamics of Spizac. I would liked to have talked
Speaker 5: to him more, but he reached out to me towards
Speaker 5: the end of his time and asked me to be
Speaker 5: there for his execution, and I was the last person
Speaker 5: to ever speak to him before they took him over
Speaker 5: to the death chamber and proceeded with the execution. But
Speaker 5: he was different from starting out wanting to kill everybody
Speaker 5: that wasn't a white Anglo Saxon Protestant to the end
Speaker 5: of his life where he wanted to become a female
Speaker 5: and had an African American pastor there to deliver spiritual
Speaker 5: rights to him. At first, I thought Frank was going
Speaker 5: to be very remorseful because of speaking to him in
Speaker 5: the death cell. He seemed like a deer in headlights.
Speaker 5: He couldn't believe that the day was here. Wanted people
Speaker 5: to know that he wasn't that monster anymore. Gave me
Speaker 5: his personal effects that were in the death cell, so
Speaker 5: I was thinking that maybe, just maybe there was a
Speaker 5: sense of remorse there. But then when they strapped him
Speaker 5: to the table and when you're allowed to make your
Speaker 5: last and final statement, he gave it in German, which
Speaker 5: it just infuriated the three witnesses on the victim's side
Speaker 5: because that was like rubbing salt into the wounds, because
Speaker 5: he only ever tried to speak German before when he
Speaker 5: was killing everybody, wanted to be the next Dadolf Hitler
Speaker 5: and everything else. Fast forward twenty eight years later and
Speaker 5: he's on his deathbed there and the last statement he
Speaker 5: gives is in German, so that tells me he wasn't remorseful.
Speaker 7: Right, certainly, Now you talk about the last person that
Speaker 7: you've seen executed, which was February twenty fifteen, and Fred Trich,
Speaker 7: this is incredible to the story of his mother being
Speaker 7: you know, I know mothers can be supportive, but tell
Speaker 7: us how supportive his mother was. And you know, sort
Speaker 7: of the charm again, another charismatic sort of guy. But
Speaker 7: again you stress, you got to remember what this guy's
Speaker 7: crimes are. So tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 7: Fred Triesch and his mom and his crimes.
Speaker 5: So Fred Triesch was involved in a shootout where he
Speaker 5: killed a store clerk and tried to kill some police officers.
Speaker 5: And it had a history of violence in the past, of
Speaker 5: robbing places and not killing the victims. But if they
Speaker 5: were females, sometimes he would duct tape them and tie
Speaker 5: them up, strip him naked first, tie them up, and
Speaker 5: then he would take light bulbs and he would insert
Speaker 5: them into the vaginas of the females and then kick
Speaker 5: them to where the light bulb would explode inside of
Speaker 5: him before he would leave. So very deranged in that sense,
Speaker 5: was very much an addict smoke crack on a regular basis.
Speaker 5: He was on death row for eighteen years before he
Speaker 5: was executed. Sixteen of those eighteen years he smoked crack
Speaker 5: still on death row on a regular basis, because there's
Speaker 5: a lot of drugs, a lot of contraband that smuggled
Speaker 5: in to death row, mostly through the guards, whether it's
Speaker 5: alcohol or drugs or pornography or anything like that. But
Speaker 5: what you need to get in there is the money.
Speaker 5: And Fred's mother was his main supplier for money. So
Speaker 5: what she would do is she would take usually one
Speaker 5: hundred dollars bill every time she would come to visit him,
Speaker 5: and she would put it in a condom and put
Speaker 5: it up inside of her vagina. And the reason that
Speaker 5: she would use the economistead of anything else is so
Speaker 5: it couldn't be detected if they decided to put them
Speaker 5: through a machine to search them. So when she would
Speaker 5: get in to see Fred, and she was allowed to
Speaker 5: buy certain things out of the vending machine for them,
Speaker 5: and she would buy him bag of chips in a pop.
Speaker 5: She would open up the chips. First, she would ask
Speaker 5: to go to the restroom and they would allow her to.
Speaker 5: She would go into the restroom, she would take the
Speaker 5: condom out of her vagina with the hundred dollars bill
Speaker 5: in there, and she would come out and then she
Speaker 5: would place that in the bag of chips when nobody
Speaker 5: was looking, and then give the bag of chips to Fred,
Speaker 5: and then Fred would eat the chips. He would swallow
Speaker 5: that condom that just came out of his mother. And
Speaker 5: then later on in the evening, he would when he
Speaker 5: would go to the restroom, go to the bathroom, he
Speaker 5: would take that out of his stool, out of his feces,
Speaker 5: clean it off, take the crisp one hundred dollars bill
Speaker 5: out of there, and then that's what he would give
Speaker 5: to the guards in exchange for the crack that he
Speaker 5: would smoke.
Speaker 7: Yeah, incredible. Now this is the last person that you
Speaker 7: see executed, and you talk about that these are done,
Speaker 7: I believe on Tuesday, ten am on the dot. And
Speaker 7: then you go to the death house. The prison, the
Speaker 7: entire prison is in lockdown. The inmates tell us about
Speaker 7: this whole atmosphere, the inmates yelling and screaming. What are
Speaker 7: they yelling and screaming? Tell us about this entire process
Speaker 7: where you go to the death house for the ten
Speaker 7: am execution.
Speaker 5: So all the executions take place in Lucasville, So I
Speaker 5: usually arrive at the penitentiary about six in the morning,
Speaker 5: maybe five thirty quarters six in the morning. I like
Speaker 5: to get there before the protesters or anything like that.
Speaker 5: And I'm processed in and I'm taken to the debriefing room.
Speaker 5: And since I'm with one of the one of the
Speaker 5: witnesses on the defendant side, I'm placed in a room
Speaker 5: with the defendant's attorneys and his clergy, and then in
Speaker 5: another debriefing room are the three witnesses for the victim side.
Speaker 5: We never come in contact with one another, so we're
Speaker 5: in there the entire time until it's time to walk
Speaker 5: across the yard the prison yard. They keep the prison
Speaker 5: on lockdown during an execution, but a lot of the
Speaker 5: prisoners that have cells on the perimeter of the wall
Speaker 5: of the yard anyways, can see right over to the deathhouse,
Speaker 5: which sits almost like in the middle. And as I'm
Speaker 5: being escorted over there, they're just yelling as loud as
Speaker 5: they can. I'm not even sure what they're yelling. It's
Speaker 5: almost like when you see those movies with the gladiators
Speaker 5: and that, and it's in like a colossium almost, and
Speaker 5: you just everything is so surreal. The hearse is sitting
Speaker 5: there off to the side waiting for this to take place,
Speaker 5: and all of this noise is going on throughout the yard,
Speaker 5: which they're yelling through their prison windows and their cell box.
Speaker 5: And then your escort right into the death house. If
Speaker 5: I go to the death cell, which is where I
Speaker 5: talk to the individual for the last time, it's a
Speaker 5: very tiny like cage almost. There's a bed, a toilet,
Speaker 5: a little sink, and a writing desk and that's it.
Speaker 5: It's completely open that there's no curtains, there's no anything,
Speaker 5: and there are three guards that sit there right in
Speaker 5: front of them twenty four to seven for every single
Speaker 5: minute that they're there for the last thirty six hours,
Speaker 5: and every single thing that they do is recorded, whether
Speaker 5: it's they brush their teeth, they get up to make
Speaker 5: the bed, they whatever they reques, every single thing is recorded.
Speaker 5: So when I go over there, even whatever we're saying
Speaker 5: back and forth is dictated down. That's the death cell.
Speaker 5: You go right around the corner from that, and it's
Speaker 5: the execution chambers right there where the witnesses are seated.
Speaker 5: There are three seats, a little partition that doesn't even
Speaker 5: go all the way up to the ceiling, and then
Speaker 5: three seats on the other side, and then you're sitting
Speaker 5: behind this glass window. The innatives made to walk in
Speaker 5: and they will strap him down to the table and
Speaker 5: then they will proceed to put the ivs in him
Speaker 5: and then allow him to make his final statement. And
Speaker 5: you will never see the executioner. They clear the execution
Speaker 5: room out. Only the warden and one other person stands
Speaker 5: in there. When the warden buttons his top coat button
Speaker 5: on his suit, that's the signal to the executioner to
Speaker 5: start the drugs, which is behind a brick wall that
Speaker 5: you never see, but you can see the drugs if
Speaker 5: you're looking anyways. You can see the drugs flowing right
Speaker 5: down the tubes into the ivy and into the into
Speaker 5: the in melane on the table, so you can hear
Speaker 5: a pin drop there. There's n a of the executions
Speaker 5: I've been there, even the one that took over two hours,
Speaker 5: it was there was no noise other than the right
Speaker 5: I I the I'm writing the entire time on a
Speaker 5: tablet and the sound of my pen is almost deafening
Speaker 5: because it's so quiet and there and y you just
Speaker 5: I it's just a it's hard to explain the feeling
Speaker 5: itself because that it's it's different every time. It's not
Speaker 5: something that you could ever get used to when you're
Speaker 5: watching the life of a human being taken in right
Speaker 5: in front of you, especially if somebody you just got
Speaker 5: done talking to, you know, minutes before. It's not like
Speaker 5: there are uh in hospice care or they're terminally o'
Speaker 5: or whatever. These individuals were, for all intense purposes, alive
Speaker 5: and well y ten minutes ago, and then you see
Speaker 5: them being strapped down and the life being taken from
Speaker 5: them right in front of you.
Speaker 7: So, now, with the.
Speaker 5: Relationships that you.
Speaker 7: Fostered with these inmates, they and you say, with the
Speaker 7: availability of arts and craft supplies that these guys had,
Speaker 7: and obviously time on their hands. And you feature a
Speaker 7: lot of very very talented artwork in this book. Why
Speaker 7: did you want to feature this artwork? And how important
Speaker 7: was artwork and the giving and the gifting of artwork
Speaker 7: to these inmates. Tell us about some of the stories
Speaker 7: of them imparting their personal, very very talented artwork to
Speaker 7: you as a gift.
Speaker 5: As most people know, nothing in life is really free,
Speaker 5: and in prison it's even more expensive. So nothing is
Speaker 5: free in prison. So for these individuals to send me
Speaker 5: paintings in drawings in wooden clocks that actually work, and
Speaker 5: leather goods and things of that nature and never ask
Speaker 5: for anything in return says a lot about the trust
Speaker 5: and the respect that they have for me. I didn't
Speaker 5: want to put the artwork in the book to glorify
Speaker 5: them so much as I wanted to put the artwork
Speaker 5: in there to let the general public know that they
Speaker 5: have this ability to be able to use woodworking tools
Speaker 5: and paints and supplies and things like that on death row,
Speaker 5: that this death row isn't a dark cave somewhere that
Speaker 5: you know, these inmates are very well taken care of.
Speaker 5: So they send me this artwork, and it has over
Speaker 5: the years mushroomed into this. I'm looking at my dining
Speaker 5: room table now and there's artwork laying on it I
Speaker 5: just received this week. You know, my son has books
Speaker 5: laying on top of some of them. My poor daughter,
Speaker 5: thank goodness, she lives in Texas right now, because her
Speaker 5: bed is literally right now coverage. You can't even see it.
Speaker 5: There's probably fifteen paintings laying on her bed because I
Speaker 5: haven't had a chance to classify them and put them
Speaker 5: away yet, so I have hundreds of paintings and drawings.
Speaker 5: Has sent me from everywhere from California's Death Road and
Speaker 5: Nevada to Florida and especially Ohio, and these inmates they just,
Speaker 5: I think in my mind anyways, they want their name
Speaker 5: out there, they want their work displayed, and the overwhelming
Speaker 5: majority of them will do nature scenes, religious scenes have
Speaker 5: some type of religious undertone. And getting to know these
Speaker 5: inmates as well as I have, they have expressed me
Speaker 5: and told me that they would love to paint and
Speaker 5: draw what's really on their mind, what most of us
Speaker 5: would refer to as the dark art, the skulls a crossbones,
Speaker 5: they're victims and things like that, but they are afraid
Speaker 5: to do that because it would send the wrong message
Speaker 5: out to the public, especially when it comes to time
Speaker 5: for their appeals. So what they'll do is they'll paint
Speaker 5: religious scenes, animals scenes, nature scenes to try to trick
Speaker 5: people into thinking that they are changing while they're on
Speaker 5: death row, they were becoming a better person, when in
Speaker 5: reality they are just still that deceitful, that conniving that
Speaker 5: they even go so far as to think that way,
Speaker 5: so that they're careful of what they even draw or paint.
Speaker 7: For me, Wow, incredible. Now part of this book is
Speaker 7: your exploration what I didn't ask you what you did mention,
Speaker 7: but I didn't ask you specifically what your position on
Speaker 7: the death penalty was. But you said that really you
Speaker 7: could only make a decision based on someone else's opinion
Speaker 7: who had never attended an execution that really didn't have
Speaker 7: the kind of experience that you thought was necessary to
Speaker 7: make a really good decision one way or another. You
Speaker 7: said you really couldn't. So after you've looked at this
Speaker 7: and analyze this with this incredible book, tell us about
Speaker 7: some of the things that you saw as the major
Speaker 7: issues to make a decision one way or another. What
Speaker 7: were those issues and how did you deal with them
Speaker 7: and what did you see in regards to those issues.
Speaker 5: Well, when I first started over nine years ago, I
Speaker 5: never once entertained the thought of writing a book. I
Speaker 5: just wanted to be able to have an educated opinion
Speaker 5: on whether I was four or against the death penalty.
Speaker 5: It came to a point where everybody kept asking me
Speaker 5: to write a book, and I felt that it was
Speaker 5: necessary after seeing everything that goes on on death Row.
Speaker 5: I felt that the general public they needed to be
Speaker 5: made aware of it because that's our tax dollars at work,
Speaker 5: and it needs to be more transparent. So when I
Speaker 5: decided to write the book, I had to stress to people,
Speaker 5: and I still stress to people that my opinion of
Speaker 5: the death penalty is irrelevant, and I don't try to
Speaker 5: sway anybody one way or the other, whether they're for
Speaker 5: or against it. The book, I outline it in a
Speaker 5: way that people can really make an educated opinion after
Speaker 5: they read the book, whether they are for the death
Speaker 5: penalty or not. And my conclusions after all of these years,
Speaker 5: what I have learned that I had no idea about
Speaker 5: was how flawed our system is because there's really no
Speaker 5: rhyme or reason on how we enact the ultimate form
Speaker 5: of punishment in the United States, meaning taking the life
Speaker 5: of another human being. So if we're constantly talking about
Speaker 5: universal healthcare, we're constantly making sure that we have universal
Speaker 5: law enforcement across the board. Our judicial system is universal,
Speaker 5: our educational system is universal across the board. We try
Speaker 5: to keep these certain standards all the way across the board.
Speaker 5: I would think that if we were going to take
Speaker 5: the life of another human being as a penalty. Then
Speaker 5: we would be universal across the board on that in
Speaker 5: an agreement, but in fact we're so far from it.
Speaker 5: Our states can't agree on the methods to use. They
Speaker 5: argue on whether it's going to be lethal injection or electrocution.
Speaker 5: They can't agree on the number of appeals. They can't
Speaker 5: agree on what crimes should put a person on death row,
Speaker 5: and they can't agree on how long they should stay there.
Speaker 5: I look at California and my inmates out there. You're
Speaker 5: looking at eight hundred people on death row, and you're
Speaker 5: more than likely to die in natural causes out there
Speaker 5: because they don't execute anybody where. Then you look at
Speaker 5: states like Texas and it seems like they run them
Speaker 5: through one after the other, and they probably average maybe
Speaker 5: one a month here in Ohio. Nothing last year, nothing
Speaker 5: this year. So there's no rhyme or reason. So I
Speaker 5: think the system is severely flawed. I think it's broken.
Speaker 5: I don't know if it's something that could be repaired
Speaker 5: because everything is so political, there's so many egos involved,
Speaker 5: and so that's what I set out to show people
Speaker 5: in the book was how the system really works, and
Speaker 5: there may be people that sit there and say, you know,
Speaker 5: that's horrible. There's no way I'd want tover support the
Speaker 5: death penalty. And then there's others that will say, you know,
Speaker 5: who cares. As long as you kill them, that's the
Speaker 5: ultimate end to it all. Make sure that they die,
Speaker 5: and however long it takes, they're fine with that. So again,
Speaker 5: you know, I'm not out there to sway them one
Speaker 5: way or the other, but I am out there to
Speaker 5: educate them in the sense that by the time they
Speaker 5: finished the book, they should at least be able to
Speaker 5: say with an educated mind anyways that they are either
Speaker 5: for it or against it.
Speaker 7: Now, part of this is the experience, the most I
Speaker 7: think the most important part of the equation is the
Speaker 7: reality for the families of the victims in Ohio. You say,
Speaker 7: carried out eighteen to twenty years later. So tell us again,
Speaker 7: you don't want to make you say, listen, I'm for
Speaker 7: the death penalty. I'm not for the death penalty, But
Speaker 7: tell us what the reality is for the families in this.
Speaker 5: You know, I I I feel a lot of sympathy
Speaker 5: for the families of the victims out there because again,
Speaker 5: these inmates have told me all of this stuff firsthand,
Speaker 5: So it's not like you know, I've read it somewhere
Speaker 5: else or anything. These are conversations that we've had verbally.
Speaker 5: Their their conversation. I've they they've written down for me
Speaker 5: everything else. And you take these families and they're sold
Speaker 5: this bill of goods by a prosecutor who thinks that
Speaker 5: this the person that perpetrated these crimes should be placed
Speaker 5: on death row and put to death because they're gonna
Speaker 5: be locked away and they're gonna be housed in twenty
Speaker 5: three twenty four hours a day, no sunshine until they,
Speaker 5: you know, are executed. They're not told how well the
Speaker 5: inmates are going to be treated because the prosecutors themselves
Speaker 5: don't know it. They're not they're not telling the families
Speaker 5: that you have to relive this crime every single time
Speaker 5: they appeal, and how much stress is placed on those
Speaker 5: victims' families because of them reliving it, and the fact
Speaker 5: that the inmates on the inside love to control the
Speaker 5: victim's families on the outside, so by them constantly appealing
Speaker 5: and making them relive these crimes, the inmates own the
Speaker 5: victim's families until twenty years later. So if a family
Speaker 5: member of mine was killed, and that individual that prepartary
Speaker 5: crime is put on death row. There's no closure for
Speaker 5: me until at least twenty years later, when I have
Speaker 5: built up all of this anger waiting for the person
Speaker 5: to die, when in fact the whole time I should
Speaker 5: have been that person should have been out of my mind. Anyways,
Speaker 5: So they don't control me and I don't relive it.
Speaker 5: Whether you lock them up with life without pro and
Speaker 5: forget about them or whatever you need to do. But
Speaker 5: to rehash those crimes at every appeal and to worry
Speaker 5: constantly about you want to live long enough to watch
Speaker 5: them be executed, is a horrible way to live out
Speaker 5: your life for the victim's family, That.
Speaker 7: Is yes, And I think that is one of the
Speaker 7: convincing arguments that I have come to myself. Again, I
Speaker 7: don't want to weigh into it too much, but I
Speaker 7: wanted to say that when you look at the amount
Speaker 7: of time it takes again twenty years and you have
Speaker 7: to relive those appeals, and some of those appeals sometimes
Speaker 7: they get themselves lawyers that will trot out all the
Speaker 7: most outlandish and uh, you know, excuses for the crimes.
Speaker 7: And so what will happen is that not only will
Speaker 7: they relive it, but they will also have the threat
Speaker 7: of some of these outlandish excuses actually working in court,
Speaker 7: so again and reliving. But again you as you mentioned,
Speaker 7: these these killers would love to taunt the families from
Speaker 7: their position. You know, they're totally not remorseful, So there
Speaker 7: is that added aspect. But then they add the aspect
Speaker 7: of just the incredible cost. The incredible cost is those appeals.
Speaker 7: If you think taking care of your if you begrudge
Speaker 7: the prisoner for all the arts and crafts and the
Speaker 7: food and Jesu where we have to house these people, well,
Speaker 7: the appeals with the death penalty process itself increases that cost, doesn't.
Speaker 5: Its astronomical And you know, and again it was all
Speaker 5: a learning experience for me, and I believe it still
Speaker 5: is because I still deal with a lot of mates.
Speaker 5: Another learning part of this was you hear the attorneys
Speaker 5: all the time talk about how they are against the
Speaker 5: death penalty, that it is cruel and unusual punishment, that
Speaker 5: it goes against humanity and everything else. They'll say that
Speaker 5: in public, but you get them indoors in that debriefing room.
Speaker 5: They're a whole different, breeded character. That's their bread and
Speaker 5: butter that's their paycheck. They need that death penalty because
Speaker 5: they need to defend these guys in order to get paid.
Speaker 5: And the hypocrisy that is out there is just it's stunning.
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's incredible. And the interesting thing, or one of
Speaker 7: the more interesting things about this book, Watch Me Die,
Speaker 7: is the opinions of these some of these inmates that
Speaker 7: you spoke to, their opinion of the death penalty. What
Speaker 7: was the pick one or two of these inmates that
Speaker 7: had the most cavalier you say, one of them was
Speaker 7: dying to die, But was there any really interesting and
Speaker 7: cavalier attitudes towards the death penalty and the imposing of
Speaker 7: it by any of the inmates.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean Chris Newton was the only one that
Speaker 5: was really just anxious to be executed. All of my
Speaker 5: other inmates, they are absolutely against the death penalty because
Speaker 5: they have over the years, whether they have convinced themselves
Speaker 5: or they have been brainwashed by other inmates surrounding them,
Speaker 5: that you know, a sin is a sin is a sin.
Speaker 5: So even though I may have killed five or ten
Speaker 5: or fifteen people, the state killing me is just as bad.
Speaker 5: So why does the state think that it should be
Speaker 5: okay to kill me when that that goes against everything
Speaker 5: that everybody stands for. So they are really against the
Speaker 5: death penalty. They think that the State of Ohio is
Speaker 5: in other states now are doing an injustice by killing
Speaker 5: them because it's just it's murder to them, and that
Speaker 5: makes the State of Ohio know better than what they are.
Speaker 5: So that's across the board. That's just about all the inmates,
Speaker 5: and it's uh. I was shocked to hear it the
Speaker 5: first few times, but anymore I expect to hear it
Speaker 5: because that's that's exactly how they all think about it.
Speaker 5: Is you putting me to death makes you the state
Speaker 5: just as guilty of murder as as I am, even
Speaker 5: though I killed multiple victims and they m a lot.
Speaker 7: Right before we close out our interview tonight, you talked
Speaker 7: about your writing part partner and Douglas Shear, and you
Speaker 7: talked about his tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 7: project that you guys have endeavored to take upon involving
Speaker 7: what we mentioned was the search for When you talked
Speaker 7: about the maps and locations, tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: more about this ongoing investigation that you're involved with.
Speaker 5: So I have a few maps that detail exact locations
Speaker 5: of a few bodies from one of the inmates in
Speaker 5: Ohio's death row, and they're very detailed maps. The FBI
Speaker 5: and I had worked closely together at the time to
Speaker 5: get these maps. They agree that the bodies are probably
Speaker 5: there at those locations, but again with the politics that
Speaker 5: we had mentioned before involved, they just don't seem to
Speaker 5: be too ambitious to go out and do anything about
Speaker 5: it because I think they'd read spend their time looking
Speaker 5: for Jimmy Hoffa and other things. So Doug and I
Speaker 5: decided to collaborate together to see what we can do
Speaker 5: to investigate where the locations are and if in fact
Speaker 5: they are there, to recruit the necessary individuals to locate
Speaker 5: these bodies for the purposes of closure to the victims
Speaker 5: families out there.
Speaker 7: Oh that's fantastic. I want to thank you very much
Speaker 7: Bill for coming on the program and talking about this
Speaker 7: incredible book Watch Me Die. For those that we might
Speaker 7: want to correspond with you or find out more about
Speaker 7: your work, tell us about what you have as in
Speaker 7: terms of website, Facebook, how tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about that.
Speaker 5: I'm on Facebook, very active on there. It's just under
Speaker 5: Bill Kimberland spelled k I M B E R l
Speaker 5: I N it'll it'll have a cover of my book
Speaker 5: Watch Me Die. Because there's a couple of different Bill
Speaker 5: Kimberlain's out there and they can order the book through
Speaker 5: Mygamazon dot com or Barnes and Noble or Books a
Speaker 5: Million on their websites or Green Ivy Publishing. So the
Speaker 5: book's readily available out there. The last I checked it
Speaker 5: was in seven different countries so far it had been
Speaker 5: purchased in right and then my actual email, which is
Speaker 5: BW Kimbo at b X dot net and I always
Speaker 5: respond to everybody.
Speaker 7: Well, that sounds fantastic. I want to thank you Bill
Speaker 7: for coming on and talking about Watch Me Die. Thank
Speaker 7: you very much, and you have a great evening and
Speaker 7: hope to talk to you again in the near future.
Speaker 7: Thank you.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me on your show. I appreciate it.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much, Bill, goodnight.
Speaker 5: Thanks Thanks