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<v Speaker 1>So earlier this week we chatted with Barb Kirkmeyer about

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<v Speaker 1>the passage of a bill, a House bill last year

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<v Speaker 1>I believe, yes, last year that changed the competency rules

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<v Speaker 1>around whether or not someone could be held when found

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<v Speaker 1>incompetent to stand trial or unable to participate in their defense.

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<v Speaker 2>And joining me.

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<v Speaker 1>Now to talk about the latest study from the great

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<v Speaker 1>folks at the Common Sense Institute Colorado is former DA

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<v Speaker 1>and now Common Sense fellow John Kellner.

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<v Speaker 2>John, welcome back to the show.

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, Hey Mandy, thanks for having me on.

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<v Speaker 1>So tell me a little bit about this report. And

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, why did you guys dig into this?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously it's been a topic, but what was

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<v Speaker 1>the thing that made common Sense go, you know, we

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<v Speaker 1>probably need to check this out.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, great question. So, you know, as district Attorney of

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<v Speaker 3>the eighteenth Judicial District, I'd begun to see the cracks,

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<v Speaker 3>of course, in our competency system, and we of course

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<v Speaker 3>had issues with many defendants who were either actually competent

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<v Speaker 3>or claiming to be incompetent and going through this incredibly

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<v Speaker 3>long process. I mean that would often take hundreds of

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<v Speaker 3>days in order to get a decision on whether or

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<v Speaker 3>not they could go forward with the case, and so

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<v Speaker 3>I was already interested in it. But then you start

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<v Speaker 3>to see a lot of media attention on some high

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<v Speaker 3>profile cases, one of them being Solomon Gallaghan. That's the

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<v Speaker 3>man who was alleged to was going to kidnap acate

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<v Speaker 3>at a middle school. The DA had to dismiss his

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<v Speaker 3>case after he was found to be incompetent and not restorable.

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<v Speaker 3>And then most recently you've heard it from your Sheriff

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<v Speaker 3>Reims and the district attorney in will County, this man

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<v Speaker 3>named Davisa Ephraim who was on charges being held in

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<v Speaker 3>jail for very violent crimes, including attempted murder, and he

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<v Speaker 3>was ultimately released and then made headlines again when he

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<v Speaker 3>was just re arrested. So you know, there's a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of emphasis, i think, in the media right now, But

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<v Speaker 3>there's so much more to this story that we wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to dive into with the Common Sense Institute.

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<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about what you found.

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<v Speaker 1>Because we've talked about this extensively on the show, and

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<v Speaker 1>obviously it's a significant issue that does not necessarily have

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<v Speaker 1>one simple answer. As we learned after talking to Barb Kirkmeyer,

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<v Speaker 1>just from the way that the law is written.

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<v Speaker 2>But what did you guys discover.

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<v Speaker 1>Give me the kind of nuts and bolts of the

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<v Speaker 1>paper for the audience, please.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you bet, And I mean, I'm sure Barb mentioned this.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a longstanding problem, right that has grown I

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<v Speaker 3>think was exacerbated our law. But really what we have

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<v Speaker 3>in the state of Colorado is most people don't know

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<v Speaker 3>that the state's actually under a consent to cree as

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<v Speaker 3>of twenty nineteen, where they agreed in federal court that look,

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<v Speaker 3>we must reduce our waight times to get people out

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<v Speaker 3>of jail into these incompetency restoration in patient beds. They're

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<v Speaker 3>supposed to keep it under twenty eight days of wait time. Instead,

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<v Speaker 3>those folks end up staying in jail for on average,

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<v Speaker 3>we found one hundred and ten days. That costs our

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<v Speaker 3>state every single year twelve million dollars in fines that

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<v Speaker 3>we have to pay because we're not living up to

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<v Speaker 3>the consent decree. Now, it would be a whole lot

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<v Speaker 3>more if we didn't actually have a cap on that

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<v Speaker 3>consent decree. The fines would actually be up to about

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<v Speaker 3>sixty five million dollars every year. So if you have

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<v Speaker 3>the audience an idea of just how out of step

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<v Speaker 3>the state really is in dealing with the competency issue. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>what we also found is, on average, it costs the

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<v Speaker 3>state about three hundred and eighty eight thousand dollars to

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<v Speaker 3>have one additional bed for somebody who is pending or

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<v Speaker 3>going through that incompetency restoration process. So to bring the

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<v Speaker 3>state in compliance with that twenty nine team consent decree,

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<v Speaker 3>it would cost the state about sixty million dollars every

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<v Speaker 3>single year, you know, to just get into the baseline.

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<v Speaker 3>And then when you look at some of the latest

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<v Speaker 3>information about our state where we're falling in at usually

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<v Speaker 3>the second worst in the country, including Washington DC, when

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<v Speaker 3>it comes to mental health outcomes and treatment, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>issues with diagnoses in our state the second worst in

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<v Speaker 3>the country, it gives you a sense that, look, this

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<v Speaker 3>is not just a today problem, it's future problem. And

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<v Speaker 3>the other thing we found, Mandy, was that, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>with the change in the law of the state is

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<v Speaker 3>really pushing a lot of the public safety concerns with

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<v Speaker 3>people who are incompetent they may be a danger to

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<v Speaker 3>themselves or others, and making an emphasis to put them

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<v Speaker 3>out of custody basically into a program called Bridges. It's

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<v Speaker 3>a state program that's intended to help get these people

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<v Speaker 3>to navigate through getting back to competency. And we've seen

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<v Speaker 3>some terrible outcomes from that, including the allegations of the

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<v Speaker 3>man who killed two people on the sixteenth Street Mall

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<v Speaker 3>in twenty twenty four. He was a person who was

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<v Speaker 3>reliefed for outpatient competency treatment and obviously didn't follow through

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<v Speaker 3>on it, and the results are catastrope.

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<v Speaker 1>So I've got former da in Common Sense Institute fellow

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<v Speaker 1>John Kellner with me.

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<v Speaker 3>John.

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<v Speaker 1>This is one of those things where I feel like,

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<v Speaker 1>is this going to be if the State of Colorado

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<v Speaker 1>really wants to address this, because this is part of

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<v Speaker 1>a bigger mental health issue that I don't think we

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<v Speaker 1>have enough in patient facilities, long term in patient facilities

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<v Speaker 1>to deal with some of the issues that we're seeing,

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<v Speaker 1>issues that I believe had been significantly exacerbated by the

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<v Speaker 1>sort of open drug use that we have here in Colorado.

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<v Speaker 1>Just from personal experience, I know that when you are

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<v Speaker 1>a person with any kind of predisposition to schizophrenia and

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<v Speaker 1>you start using drugs that's going to kick that mental

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<v Speaker 1>illness into high drive. Not all the time, but it

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<v Speaker 1>can happen, and it is happening. So what kind of

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<v Speaker 1>investment And I don't even know if you guys looked

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<v Speaker 1>at this, what kind of investment would it take on

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<v Speaker 1>the front end?

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<v Speaker 2>And is it sixty.

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<v Speaker 1>Million dollars every year or are we looking at we

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<v Speaker 1>need to invest in facilities in institutionalized care for people

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<v Speaker 1>that cannot be in the public and then we have

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<v Speaker 1>sixty million dollars.

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<v Speaker 2>Ye, do you know what I'm asking I do.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. And first of all, I agree with you wholeheartedly

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<v Speaker 3>that the permissive nature around drugs in our state really

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<v Speaker 3>set us apart even from states like Utah and their

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<v Speaker 3>outcomes with mental health treatment where they don't have this

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<v Speaker 3>sort of permissive environment around drugs. And a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>this has been brought on, frankly by ourselves, by the

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<v Speaker 3>voters and passing laws that have increased access to things

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<v Speaker 3>like incredibly high potency marijuana, right and those sorts of

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<v Speaker 3>things I do think contributes significantly to our mental health

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<v Speaker 3>crisis in this state. To answer your question directly, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>sixty million dollars a year is just the starting point

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<v Speaker 3>to meet the baseline of to consent to create. The

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<v Speaker 3>reality is we don't have the physical infrastructure either to

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<v Speaker 3>deal with the number of people that actually need to

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<v Speaker 3>go through the competency process. So historically we use the

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<v Speaker 3>Cardo Mental Health Hospital in Pueblo, and the people there

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<v Speaker 3>are fantastic, They do incredibly good work. It is very

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<v Speaker 3>hard though, for them to recruit and retain top none

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<v Speaker 3>salent down there. It's just a difficult spot to have

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<v Speaker 3>your state's primary mental health hospital. And one of our

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<v Speaker 3>recommendations and the common sensens to report, is that we

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<v Speaker 3>really do need to explore expanding the state hospital capacity

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<v Speaker 3>with new infrastructure and frankly with the Denver area facility,

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<v Speaker 3>and we could leverage a lot of the output of

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<v Speaker 3>tremendous healthcare practitioners coming out of Anshoot's medical care.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I agree, I mean in that sense, I really agree.

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<v Speaker 1>When you think about how much has just been spent

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<v Speaker 1>by the City of Denver building or buying these this

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<v Speaker 1>housing and I realized that if we're talking about secure housing,

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<v Speaker 1>and you can't just buy a double tree and switch

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<v Speaker 1>it into you know, secure housing for people suffering with

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<v Speaker 1>severe mental illness, but that investment in space is one

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<v Speaker 1>of those things that in my mind, it just we

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<v Speaker 1>have to buckle up, find the money, and make it happen,

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<v Speaker 1>because we're releasing people who are not just a danger

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<v Speaker 1>to themselves, they're a danger to other people. And I

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<v Speaker 1>hate to say it, I think we've already seen it.

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<v Speaker 1>To your point, you reference the guy on the Sixteenth

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<v Speaker 1>Street Mall that had, you know, been released to outpatient

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<v Speaker 1>care and never followed up and nothing happened. People are

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<v Speaker 1>going to get killed, and I don't want to see

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<v Speaker 1>that happen. So is there the political will And this

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<v Speaker 1>is just a you don't have to answer this question

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<v Speaker 1>if you don't want to wait into the politics of it.

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<v Speaker 1>But it seems to me that now, because of the

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<v Speaker 1>high profile nature of Devisa Ephraim and the other gentleman

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<v Speaker 1>that you referenced as well, this might be the best

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<v Speaker 1>moment for a big swing on this.

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<v Speaker 2>But is there any.

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<v Speaker 1>Sort of bills that you guys are aware of that

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<v Speaker 1>would be that big swing.

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<v Speaker 3>I've heard legislators are obviously talking about it. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, to their credit, they're hearing the outcry, they're

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<v Speaker 3>seeing the issue, and I think there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>some introception going on with respect to the twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 3>four law, which kind of poured gasoline on a fire

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<v Speaker 3>by mandating the automatic dismissal of these cases rather than

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<v Speaker 3>potentially re evaluating them. And it also didn't provide for

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<v Speaker 3>when there's an automatic dismissal, a handoff to the civil

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<v Speaker 3>competency system where you're talking about civil commitment. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>they don't have to case going on, but they still

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<v Speaker 3>need treatment, right they're a danger to themselves or others.

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<v Speaker 3>And instead the result was well, case dismissed. I guess

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<v Speaker 3>you're out the door of the jail, and you know,

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<v Speaker 3>best of luck to you. That is not a way,

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<v Speaker 3>of course that Colorado should take care rankly some of

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<v Speaker 3>the most vulnerable people, and then putting that public safety

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<v Speaker 3>risk out on the community is absolutely unacceptable. Is their

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<v Speaker 3>political will. I mean we're already talking about, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>folks saying we are underwater with our budget, right. I

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<v Speaker 3>think the budget is significantly increased the year over year,

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<v Speaker 3>but there has to be a focus on public safety

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<v Speaker 3>primary responsibility of government in my opinion, and hopefully we'll

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<v Speaker 3>see some legislators talk about bold solutions instead of sort

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<v Speaker 3>of nabbling around the edges of well, let's add ten

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<v Speaker 3>twenty more beds. No, we need a bold action plan.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I would say, John, I would think that there's

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<v Speaker 1>something in it for both sides here in that Republicans

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<v Speaker 1>can sell it to their caucuses because it is a

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<v Speaker 1>law and order issue, and Democrats should be able to

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<v Speaker 1>sell it to their off you know, their caucuses based

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<v Speaker 1>on the humanity issue they don't want.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think Democrats want.

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<v Speaker 1>To see these people that we see on the streets

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<v Speaker 1>of Denver and other places obviously out of their minds

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<v Speaker 1>with either mental illness or drugs or both. Like people

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to see people live that way. So I

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<v Speaker 1>would hope that this would be one issue where we

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<v Speaker 1>could get the two sides to really say, we've to

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<v Speaker 1>your point, We've got to address.

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<v Speaker 2>This in a bold way, and hopefully that will happen.

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<v Speaker 1>We shall see, John, you guys are doing such great

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<v Speaker 1>work at the Common Sense Institute. I put a link

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<v Speaker 1>to this paper on my blog today so people can

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<v Speaker 1>find it there, and you really should read it because

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<v Speaker 1>this is a serious, serious issue. And again, as John

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<v Speaker 1>just mentioned, I don't want Tom nibbling around the edges either.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, thank you, Mandy. I appreciate you bringing attention to

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<v Speaker 3>this issue and appreciate you having me.

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<v Speaker 1>On all right, John, thanks so much. We'll talk again

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<v Speaker 1>in the future.