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Daily bonuses are waiting. 22 00:00:55.560 --> 00:00:58.240 No purchase necessary boid, We're prohibited by Long eighteen plus 23 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.399 terms and conditions applying See website for detail. 24 00:01:01.679 --> 00:01:02.960 Loop Host Radio. 25 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:16.120 You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking 26 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:19.239 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 27 00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:26.599 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every 28 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:30.280 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.920 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:37.799 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:50.680 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 32 00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:54.040 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 33 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:58.079 History and the authors that have written about them. In 34 00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:04.000 February two thousand and nine, Guy Turcott, a cardiologist, stabbed 35 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:09.159 his two young children and Sophie three and Olivier Olivier 36 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:13.919 five forty six times while they were lying in their beds. 37 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:17.879 Turcott admitted to the killings, but in the subsequent murder 38 00:02:17.919 --> 00:02:20.919 trial he claimed he could not recall carrying them out. 39 00:02:21.479 --> 00:02:24.240 The Guee Turcotte murder trowe was one of the most 40 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:28.960 closely followed in recent history in Canada, both horrifying and 41 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:33.560 captivating the public. The jury deliberated for five days deciding 42 00:02:33.599 --> 00:02:35.960 on the fate of the cardiologists charged with first degree 43 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:39.560 murder in the deaths of his children. The trial hinged 44 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:41.800 on Turcott's state of mind at the time of the 45 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:45.360 February two thousand and nine slayings. Was he trying to 46 00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.919 get revenge on his estranged wife a fellow doctor, for 47 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:51.719 cheating on him with a mutual friend, or was he 48 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:55.840 a sick man who had lost all reason. Turcott's lawyers 49 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:59.240 argued he had been rendered temporarily insane over the recent 50 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:04.280 breakup of his marriage with miss Gaston. In the July verdict, 51 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:08.840 a jury found he was not criminally responsible for his actions. 52 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.680 In September, Turcott faced a five person mental health tribunal 53 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:17.039 to determine whether he should be released or whether he 54 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:21.039 should be detained for another year. As the mental health 55 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:25.280 tribunal decided whether to set Ghee Turcott free, hundreds of 56 00:03:25.280 --> 00:03:29.840 protesters gathered in fourteen Quebec cities calling for an overall 57 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:34.520 of the justice system. Crown prosecutors are now seeking a 58 00:03:34.599 --> 00:03:38.680 retrial for Turcott, arguing that the judge aired in law 59 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:42.439 in his instructions to the jury, the program this evening 60 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:47.919 we're discussing is not criminally responsible, travesty of justice, and 61 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:50.520 that this will be an editorial program where I will 62 00:03:50.599 --> 00:03:53.120 welcome people to call in after they get the gist 63 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.360 of the program, and that number is three four seven 64 00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:02.719 two three seven four zero zero six four three four 65 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:07.159 seven two three seven four zero six four. So if 66 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.800 you have an opinion once we get about maybe ten 67 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:13.960 fifteen minutes into the program, and you're a regular listener 68 00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:18.439 and want to weigh in on the subject itself, on 69 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:22.800 your opinion on what you think about this, please carefully 70 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:25.800 consider what has been said in the fifteen minutes, and 71 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.439 then I welcome you to call in if you like, 72 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.639 or just listen to the rest of the program, as 73 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:35.560 I think there'll be some relevant issues for everybody listening 74 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:39.720 right now. True crime fans everywhere will be interested in 75 00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:43.399 this case, and I'll explain why even people in America 76 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:48.360 might find this shocking, and I'll explain why I think 77 00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:50.839 people in America might want to pay attention to this 78 00:04:50.959 --> 00:04:56.560 verdict in Canada. Now, this Geettercott, like I mentioned, is 79 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:02.560 a prominent cardiology living in Montreal, one of the biggest 80 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:10.199 cities in Canada, and he had discovered an email after 81 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:13.240 his wife had filed for divorce or they were separated, 82 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:20.199 and this email he found a confidential correspondence with his 83 00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:24.720 wife and a mutual friend of his and his wife's 84 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:29.600 who she now he learned through this email was she 85 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.959 was carrying on an affair with this person that was 86 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:35.920 his mutual friend and well mutual friend of both of them. 87 00:05:36.519 --> 00:05:44.439 So this created this precipitated this situation. Anyway, Now, what 88 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:49.160 Geeturkoud did was on the evening in question is he 89 00:05:49.279 --> 00:05:55.319 went online and researched how to commit suicide and apparently 90 00:05:55.399 --> 00:06:00.720 decided for some reason that window washer fluid would do 91 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:04.279 the trick, and ingested some of this window washer fluid. 92 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:08.199 And then again, this is the only way we'll ever 93 00:06:08.240 --> 00:06:11.240 find this out is from his account of what happened. 94 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:15.639 He said he then contemplated the life of his three 95 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.040 year old daughter and his five year old son and 96 00:06:19.160 --> 00:06:22.560 thought that they would it would be horrible for them 97 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:26.839 to not have a father. So, in this twisted logic 98 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:29.800 that he had at that time, he decided to stab 99 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:36.120 them forty nine times all together between the two forty 100 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:40.639 nine times, so an obvious overkill. Forty nine times he 101 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:48.040 stabbed his own children. Now, previous to this, he had 102 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:52.519 a journal separation, been angered at his wife and come 103 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:57.079 and came to the family home that he has now 104 00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.839 been locked out of his own home. And everyone can 105 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:04.759 probably understand this would make most people angry. He punched 106 00:07:04.920 --> 00:07:12.399 his wife, or now his ex wife, Miss Gaston, punched 107 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:19.079 her in the face. So in subsequent emails he had 108 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:22.560 used the words, if you want a war, you're going 109 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:26.879 to have a war. Now, I believe there's a difference 110 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:31.560 in Canadian law. Anybody's listening to this program quite steadily 111 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:36.759 will know that. In my opinion, and it's not even opinion. Factually, 112 00:07:36.959 --> 00:07:41.360 this country starts with second degree murder and then proceeds 113 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:45.879 with the possibility of manslaughter as a potential outcome. Rarely 114 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:53.120 are defendants charged initially with first degree murder. Now, for 115 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:58.120 those in the US realizing that first degree murder is 116 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.160 there's supposed to be some form of premeditation, and that's 117 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.639 where the Canadians get hung up on. They say, well, 118 00:08:04.680 --> 00:08:10.279 there was no premeditation, but in America, just a few seconds, 119 00:08:10.360 --> 00:08:14.120 just a split second of thirty seconds, a minute of 120 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:19.120 any kind of planning would qualify then potentially. And I'm 121 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:22.680 dumbing this down completely, and I apologize for those legal 122 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.480 those people that know the law better than I that 123 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:33.159 this would qualify potentially for first degree murder in this country, 124 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:36.960 because we seem to have a different definition of this 125 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:42.960 first degree. What we have is that we normally start 126 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.840 with second degree murder charges and then with the possibility 127 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.639 for that defendant of manslaughter. In America seems to be 128 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:55.320 either in a death penalty state first degree murder, second 129 00:08:55.360 --> 00:09:01.600 degree murder, and then three differ degrees in manslaughter. And 130 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:03.919 I think that might even depend on state to state 131 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:08.600 being some differences. I'm not sure anyway, Getting back to 132 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:14.159 Ghee Turkott, now, what happened is I mentioned in the 133 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:22.399 opening that the jury found Gee Turkott not criminally responsible 134 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:24.879 for the killings, and you can ask, well, how could 135 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:27.600 he not be responsible if he admitted to the killings, 136 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:35.200 because the state or our government has the onus to 137 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:39.639 prove that he had the necessary intent to kill if 138 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:43.200 he didn't have an intent to kill, And again, the 139 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:46.600 state has to prove that he had the intent to kill, 140 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:49.320 not the other way around. He does not have to 141 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:52.519 prove that he had no intent to kill. The state 142 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:54.639 has to prove that he had an intent to kill. 143 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:59.399 Without the intent to kill, there is no murder. Now, 144 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:02.200 the jury had the possibility of first degree murder, which 145 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:05.600 he was charged with for the two children, second degree 146 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:10.559 murder manslaughter which is greatly reduced for murder in terms 147 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:15.559 of sentencing, and then in this case, not criminally responsible. 148 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:21.440 So the defense put forward psychiatric experts, psychiatrists that were 149 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:29.080 reconsidered expert witnesses, and they felt that in his altered state, 150 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:33.639 I guess from the combination of the window washer fluid, 151 00:10:34.039 --> 00:10:37.840 but really it was the overall mental state that this 152 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:43.080 person found themselves in an odd moment, a out of 153 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:47.799 character moment, and had stabbed his children forty nine times. 154 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:52.000 And the psychiatrists for the defense, along with the defense 155 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.440 team and their strategy, convinced the jury, and they must 156 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:00.720 have done an adequate job for the jury to believe 157 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:05.759 that he was not criminally responsible for his actions. He 158 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:10.360 did not have an intent to kill, apparently because of 159 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:14.399 his altered thinking, his altered state of mind, and they 160 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:18.080 were convinced that he was not criminally responsible. Now, for 161 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:21.279 those that listened last week and for those that didn't, 162 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:24.200 I'll just do a little bit of a recap. I 163 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:29.200 was interviewing a gentleman named Fred Rosen, And for those 164 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.480 that did comment and quite a few people contacted me. Yes, 165 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:34.919 the hour of the interview was two hours instead of 166 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:39.000 one hour because the one hour, Fred seemed to want 167 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:41.559 to talk about everything, bought his book for that hour, 168 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:44.000 so I indulged him, and I got caught up in 169 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.960 his tangents, I would say, but we talked about a 170 00:11:47.960 --> 00:11:51.679 lot of things, and many many people commented that they 171 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:56.799 weren't so interested in this banter whatsoever. They really just 172 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:00.480 enjoy hearing about the books from the authors, the authors 173 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.720 explaining their books. But why bring up Fred Rosen is 174 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:07.600 because Fred Rosen in his book acted like the consummate 175 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:11.320 journalist and just presented the facts and let the audience, 176 00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:18.159 the reader, determine whether this serial killer, Gary Hilton, had 177 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:24.399 a organic brain disorder, an event that precipitated him not 178 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:29.240 being criminally responsible for his actions much years later, when 179 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:34.320 oddly enough, he seemed to become a serial killer at 180 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:37.440 fifty eight or fifty nine years of age and went 181 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.440 on to kill three or four people in total. And 182 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:48.639 so when he has described this person as a psychopathic, 183 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:54.440 devious con man who ends up later being a killer, 184 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:58.320 I found it surprising that Fred Rosen had concluded that, yes, 185 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:03.639 this person wasn't he didn't think was criminally responsible for 186 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:06.159 his actions and certainly should not have been put on 187 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:09.639 death row. Now, I don't want to get back into 188 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:13.879 that debate or not, but he did have sympathy for 189 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:20.200 this killer and believed the defense that this killer, Gary Hilton, 190 00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:23.919 had had an injury that rendered him incapable of being 191 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.960 responsible for his crimes later in life for those murders 192 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.240 and I and they say, even if you do agree 193 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:34.919 with that, then what do we do now? Getting back 194 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:39.279 to this case, it's similar, And this is the why 195 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.240 I've drawn them both together, is that if you believe that, yes, 196 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:48.120 this cardiologist, this upstanding doctor, a member of the community, 197 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.120 and I'm sure they provided ample evidence of this person 198 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:58.440 not having a murderous reputation or intentions or background or 199 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:05.120 behavior that would indicate something like this, that if he's 200 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:10.480 not criminally responsible for the deaths of his children, this 201 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.320 was an odd moment out of character, that he was 202 00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:19.799 consumed by his anger and depression and rejection, whatever way 203 00:14:19.799 --> 00:14:23.639 you would like to describe it. And now in this 204 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:27.559 particular case, he is put into a mental institution and 205 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:31.240 a psychiatric tribunal is going to decide whether he just 206 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.759 goes home in a short period of time, or he's 207 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.399 kept for another year. As you read another year, like 208 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:43.200 something will go on in that year of treatment. So 209 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.559 I asked a question for our audience and just for 210 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:51.600 the listener for themselves to think and contemplate, what do 211 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:56.759 you do with this person that's not criminally responsible. If 212 00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.039 they just had an odd moment, then what we call 213 00:14:59.080 --> 00:15:06.559 in Canada, he would be not insane by any standards 214 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:11.159 that we normally apply. So if he's not insane per se, 215 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:15.480 then he had an insane moment. And there has been 216 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:20.360 defenses that I've spoken about before in Canada insane automatism 217 00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:24.639 and non insane automatism, where basically the person is rendered 218 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:30.879 a robot, not conscious in the normal state, not again 219 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:35.240 responsible for their criminal actions because of this altered state, 220 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:39.159 this automaton that they become. But if there's a non 221 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:46.759 insane automatism, then this person snapped lost it as they call, 222 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:51.840 we use whatever description like, and otherwise this person, as 223 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:58.480 the psychiatrists speak in Canada, not likely to re offend 224 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:03.159 or yeah, not likely to reoffend. I don't know how 225 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:05.799 they can make that kind of conclusion. But my question is, 226 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:10.039 what do we do with killer Gary Hilton if we 227 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:13.559 do conclude that yes, he had an injury where something 228 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:15.840 fell on his head and had two hundred stitches to 229 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:19.759 his head and that affected a certain portion of the brain, 230 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:23.039 and that certain portion of the brain is responsible for 231 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:28.279 empathy and sympathy and would render this person a psychopath 232 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:33.399 without any conscience. What do we then do with these 233 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:38.360 people that we've said they're not criminally responsible. Is ninety 234 00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:38.840 days and. 235 00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:43.639 Judy was boring Hello. 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And 245 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:25.359 I think what we have in the decision in Montreal, Canada, 246 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.240 and I did throw in that this was one of 247 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:33.880 the most closely followed in recent history in Canada. That's incorrect. 248 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:38.240 What happened was in fourteen cities in one province, and 249 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:43.000 we have ten or eleven provinces. That what we have 250 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:49.680 is the Decision two in that in that province itself 251 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:57.599 resonated among the primarily French Canadian population that dominates Quebec 252 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:03.400 in terms of population. Fourteen cities there were and I 253 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:05.680 don't even know how big I read one was one 254 00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:09.400 hundred people at this protest. So the fact that that 255 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:13.359 fourteen cities were going to have some form of protest 256 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:18.039 is significant in Canada. There was a Facebook page with 257 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:25.240 twenty seven thousand signatures, for example. But to compare anything 258 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:28.559 that resonates in the United States, some of the cases, well, 259 00:18:28.599 --> 00:18:31.799 the biggest obviously the Casey Anthony case recently, but there 260 00:18:31.799 --> 00:18:34.920 have been many cases that have seemed to resonate with 261 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.599 the public over the years, and every year, in every 262 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:42.319 few months, there's some case that dominates the headlines and 263 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:47.960 seems to captivate the imagination of people. In America, we 264 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:53.319 have a case here where, for the most part, it 265 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:58.279 was reported nationally, a national news story, and it just 266 00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:05.000 didn't seem to outrage the people of Canada, and again, 267 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:09.400 I don't know what would I'm even the Robert Picton case, 268 00:19:09.599 --> 00:19:13.039 all kinds of other incredible cases do not seem to 269 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.319 have the ability or the power to outrage an entire nation, 270 00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:23.799 to create debate, to create discussions, to have some sort 271 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:28.240 of political ramifications for something to change as a result 272 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:35.039 of people complaining and protesting and calling out and expressing 273 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.880 their outrage. So what we have here actually is a 274 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:47.160 primarily phenomena that happened in one province in Canada and 275 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.000 the rest we're looking at this case. For example, I'm 276 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.960 sitting in the middle of Canada and I talk and 277 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.359 I'm talking to people and they mentioned had seen the 278 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:04.279 Casey Anthony verdict. Well, Canadians are just like Americans. We 279 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.440 watched the same television program, so we're aware of the 280 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.119 Casey Anthony case. Of course, it isn't as important to 281 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:15.079 us as Canadians as it is to Americans, especially in 282 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:19.000 people in the areas that were affected in Florida and 283 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:23.319 in that area. But we still it's a good example 284 00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:27.839 of someone randomly speaking to me about a case and 285 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:32.000 not being aware of a case that should definitely give 286 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:37.880 as much pause to consider. But also elicted some form 287 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:42.119 of outrage once they were notified of this case, that 288 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:44.920 they weren't aware of this case at all, but aware 289 00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.839 of the Casey Anthony case. Again, Casey Anthony was convicted 290 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:56.400 on circumstantial evidence. This cardiologist killed his children, admitted killing 291 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.960 his children, stabbed them forty nine times with example evident, 292 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:04.799 and yet was decided in a court of law by 293 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:08.279 a jury as not criminally responsible. That's not the same 294 00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.279 as an acquittal. But in a lot of people's minds, 295 00:21:11.319 --> 00:21:14.559 if this person, this doctor, is released in forty five 296 00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:18.559 or ninety days, and as some people have spoken in editorials, 297 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.559 he's likely to be able to be able to practice 298 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:26.480 medicine again as well. Again, just maybe a little bit 299 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:31.960 more outrage to add to the outrage already. Anyway, what 300 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:36.039 I think the lesson is for Americans is that once 301 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:42.119 you buy into too much psychiatry and its influence in 302 00:21:42.160 --> 00:21:46.480 the courts, this expert witness is a battle of expert 303 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:50.839 witnesses in terms of the prosecution will have a psychiatrist 304 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:55.200 that will claim the exact opposite, and another psychiatrist for 305 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:59.119 the defense will claim that, yes, surely this person was 306 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.880 not of their right mind and should be not criminally responsible. 307 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:06.680 So it gets down to the entire trial coming down 308 00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:15.599 to two expert witnesses. And again we hold up psychiatry 309 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:20.359 as something that we normally the layman does not understand whatsoever. 310 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:23.640 So we have a hard time arguing or disputing any 311 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:28.759 psychiatric evaluation. So it is a matter of which psychiatric 312 00:22:28.839 --> 00:22:32.519 experts end up being the better witness at a trial. 313 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:36.720 And these cases, either it can muddy the waters or 314 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:41.319 it can, certainly in this particular case, go from a 315 00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:46.480 first degree murder conviction to a not criminal responsible, incredibly 316 00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:52.839 different outcome in terms of sentence and in every way 317 00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.880 completely different for the victims and the families of the victims, 318 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:02.160 and the entire judicial system itself. So I believe that 319 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.960 if we buy into too much the excuses or not 320 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.279 criminally responsible, what we have is well, then what do 321 00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:15.119 we do In the case of Gary Hilton? What would 322 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:18.000 we do if we were to believe that somehow or 323 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:21.519 other this was not of his volition, It was not 324 00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:29.119 his fault that he robbed, killed, disposed of these human beings. 325 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.680 What would we then do with him? If we were 326 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:35.519 to put him in a mental institution? Then what is 327 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:39.799 the sentence in a mental institution till he's well for 328 00:23:39.880 --> 00:23:43.480 a certain prescribed period of time. Would that do the trick? 329 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:47.680 What would suffice and what would we all be able 330 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:52.119 to agree on? And probably not much. The idea that 331 00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:54.839 this person would be capable and then not, of course 332 00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:57.759 not be responsible, then we would say, well, then we 333 00:23:57.799 --> 00:24:00.440 would keep him in a mental institution because we do 334 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:05.079 not know what that person is capable of. In the 335 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:10.000 case of this cardiologist, we have a person that probably 336 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:18.240 has a squeaky clean background, nothing but a stellar record 337 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.000 of education and work. But regardless of that, I don't 338 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:28.759 think that that should necessarily negate any kind of idea 339 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:33.799 that this person cannot and will not, at any other 340 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.880 time in the future re offend to some extent in 341 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:42.279 his violent nature. That's just my take on it. Again, 342 00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:47.079 probably the circumstances that came together in this perfect storm 343 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:51.480 to create this incredible murder of his children will probably 344 00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:56.359 not exist again. Well that's doesn't have any children left, 345 00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:59.440 there is likely not to happen again. But that does 346 00:24:59.519 --> 00:25:03.319 not mean that somehow or other a psychiatrist can say 347 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:06.480 with any kind of certainty that this person is again 348 00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:11.359 less likely to reoffend. That's a reason not to punish 349 00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:16.279 this person, not to incarcerate this person for the killings 350 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.920 of his children. So it is again I think it's 351 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:25.319 something that's not an easy question. It's not an easy decision. 352 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.000 But I would like to if anyone who's listening to 353 00:25:29.079 --> 00:25:32.440 the program right now, please give me a call at 354 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:36.079 three four seven two three seven four zero sixty four 355 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.599 and you can weigh in on this subject. Just for 356 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:42.920 those that are going to be tuning in next week 357 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:46.200 and in the near future and may not listen to 358 00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:49.400 this entire program, I want to tell you that coming 359 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:52.880 up next week is again on the program for an 360 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:57.599 encore performance is run francel with his latest book, A 361 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:01.480 Sour Toe Cocktail, And it's a little different in that it 362 00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:05.279 really has nothing to do with any major murder or crime, 363 00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.599 but it really does have everything to do with Ron Fransell, 364 00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:13.759 who is a best selling true crime author, a very 365 00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:18.160 good author, author of The Darkest Night and Delivered from 366 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.599 Evil and a host of other true crime books. He 367 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:24.839 has a legion of fans. He's a very good writer, 368 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:28.559 and he's a very good interview And he had told 369 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:31.160 me on a previous program that he had planned he 370 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:36.160 was planning a trip with his son, a dream, a trip, 371 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:39.680 a vacation, once in a lifetime opportunity to go with 372 00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:43.799 his son to Alaska and that entire adventure. And so 373 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:46.440 I will use the opportunity because he has a book 374 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:49.640 called The Sauertool Cocktail, and we'll be able to talk 375 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.000 to him about this life changing experience that he had 376 00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.480 planned for many, many years and how that went. And 377 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:02.319 we will talk about his life writing, his career writing 378 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:06.519 true crime, what he's learned, some of the surprises, some 379 00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.400 of the things that he did not anticipate, what happened 380 00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:13.240 in his journey as a true crime writer, and we'll 381 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.839 talk about his new books Hour to a Cocktail and 382 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:21.359 the entire experience. Ron Francell again is a great interview 383 00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:23.599 and a great author, and we're going to have on 384 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.839 September twenty first. The book will be called The Crime 385 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:36.359 Buff's Guide to the Outlaw Rockies, so geographically speaking, everywhere 386 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:41.240 that is important in true crime history, to some of 387 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:46.039 the locations involved in Ted Bundy, the Columbine Massacre, and 388 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:49.880 a host of other famous and infamous true crimes and 389 00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:55.680 where they existed geographically, and it's The Crime Buff's Guide 390 00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:59.799 to the Outlaw Rockies. It seems the West Coast has 391 00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:05.759 it's an incredible share of serial killers and their sordid stories. 392 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:10.759 October fourth is going to be the Sour Till Cocktail. 393 00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:14.079 Pardon me for mixing up order of things. That's Ron Franzell. 394 00:28:14.359 --> 00:28:18.039 And again Ron Francell September twenty first with The Crime 395 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:21.880 Buff's Guide to the Outlaw Rockies. So that will be interesting. 396 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:27.000 Two books from a very very good author, Ron Francell. 397 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.559 After that we were going to have at some point 398 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:33.119 and I just got the book today. It got sidetracked 399 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:35.839 in the mail and she fast tracked me another coffee. 400 00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:40.160 This is a case that again captured the imagination of 401 00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.359