WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:04.839 Okay, Round two. Name something that's not boring. 2 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:09.240 Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire. 3 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:15.400 Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbuck Casino. 4 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:15.919 Chum. 5 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:19.320 That's right, Chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino 6 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:21.679 style games joined today and playing for free for your 7 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:27.600 chance to redeem some serious prizes. Chum chumbacasino dot com nobercessary, 8 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:30.719 my lowagy plus ters the condition of the busy website retails. Hello, 9 00:00:30.839 --> 00:00:32.520 it is Ryan and I was on a flight the 10 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.039 other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot 11 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:37.399 games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at the 12 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:39.280 person sitting next to me, and you know what they 13 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:42.159 were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, I 14 00:00:42.159 --> 00:00:44.840 think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's 15 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:47.119 home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play 16 00:00:47.159 --> 00:00:50.960 for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So 17 00:00:50.960 --> 00:00:53.799 sign up now at Chumbuckcasino dot com to claim you're free. 18 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:57.439 Welcome bonus. That's Chumbu Casino dot com and lived Chumba 19 00:00:57.479 --> 00:01:00.159 landeburgs necessary dwod wherever if I lost terms of It's 20 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:00.799 eighty plus. 21 00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:11.200 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 22 00:01:11.319 --> 00:01:14.319 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 23 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:21.640 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every 24 00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:25.359 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 25 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:29.680 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 26 00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:42.599 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 27 00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:46.640 For almost a decade, Backpage was the world's largest sex 28 00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:50.519 trafficking operation. Seven days a week, twenty four hours a day, 29 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:54.480 in eight hundred cities throughout the world. Backpage ran thousands 30 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:57.799 of listings advertising the sale of vulnerable young people for sex, 31 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:01.000 reaping a cut off every transaction. The owners of the 32 00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:03.799 website raked in millions of dollars, but many of the 33 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:06.760 people in the advertisements were children as young as twelve 34 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:11.360 and forced into commercial sex trade through fear, violence, and coercion. 35 00:02:11.639 --> 00:02:15.360 In taking down back Page, veteran California prosecutor Maggie Crell 36 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:18.000 tells the story of how she and her team prevailed 37 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.599 against this sex trafficking monolith, beginning with her early career 38 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:24.719 as a young da She shares the evolution of the 39 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:28.800 anti human trafficking movement through a fascinating combination of memoir 40 00:02:29.319 --> 00:02:32.360 and legal insight. Crell reveals how she and her team 41 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:36.280 started with the prosecution of street pimps and ultimately ended 42 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:38.919 with the takedown of the largest purveyor of human trafficking 43 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:42.719 in the world. She shares powerful stories of interviews with victims, 44 00:02:43.000 --> 00:02:46.479 sting operations, court cases, and the personal struggles that were 45 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:50.719 necessary to bring back Page executives to justice. Finally, Krell 46 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:54.039 examines the state of sex trafficking after Backpage and the 47 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:57.319 crucial work that still remains. The book that we're featuring 48 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:01.400 this evening is taking down back Page, fighting the world's 49 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:05.639 largest sex trafficker, with my special guest, former prosecutor and author, 50 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:08.719 Maggie Crell. Welcome to the program, and thank you so 51 00:03:08.840 --> 00:03:11.599 much for this interview. Maggie Crell, Thanks so much. 52 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:13.400 Dan, Good evening, Good evening. 53 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.680 Let's start off with the focus of this book. As 54 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.560 you write early on in the book, tell us what 55 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:23.080 the focus is of this book for. 56 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:27.000 Us, Please, Yes, I wanted to write about sex traffic 57 00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:30.439 in the United States. I wanted readers to understand where 58 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:34.400 it happens, how it happens, and who it impacts. I 59 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:38.960 wanted readers to understand the devastating consequences of sex trafficking, 60 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:42.639 and I wanted law enforcement and lawyers to have a 61 00:03:42.759 --> 00:03:44.680 roadmap to being part of the solution. 62 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:48.159 You do talk about what this story is not about, 63 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:51.759 So tell us what it's not related to in terms 64 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:54.560 of sex work, right, I mean. 65 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.000 Not all sex work out there is sex trafficking, and 66 00:03:58.080 --> 00:04:01.520 the term sex work and sex trafficking sometimes get conflated. 67 00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:06.319 You know, not every transaction is non consensual, but the 68 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:09.080 focus of this book are the many, many cases where 69 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:12.319 it wasn't consensual, and that's what we call rape, and 70 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.000 the exchange of money doesn't change that. And so I 71 00:04:15.080 --> 00:04:18.120 wanted to focus on sex trafficking and sexual abuse and 72 00:04:18.639 --> 00:04:19.560 what we did to stop it. 73 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:23.759 You said that you also saw firsthand the numerous rapes, robberies, 74 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:26.240 and murders that occurred through Backpage. 75 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:30.399 That's right. The commercial sex industry isn't safe, and you know, 76 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:33.839 survivors and people out there are at more risk than 77 00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:37.600 the general population when it comes to robberies, rapes, and murders. 78 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:40.319 You talked about the survivors who were part of the 79 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.279 back Page case that we will be talking about right now, 80 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:47.839 were forced into sex trafficking, and most of them as children. 81 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:51.120 Their names have been changed to protect their privacy, and 82 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:55.000 they were sold in multiple cities and sometimes in multiple states. 83 00:04:55.560 --> 00:04:56.199 Isn't that correct? 84 00:04:56.600 --> 00:05:01.079 That's right. You know, I interface with numerous survivors throughout 85 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:03.399 my time as a prosecutor, in this case in other cases, 86 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:07.600 and what they went through is unimaginable. They face really 87 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:10.160 steep barriers to even coming forward to even talking to 88 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:14.800 law enforcement. I applaud their courage, and you know, without 89 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:17.920 them and them being willing to share their stories, there 90 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.639 wouldn't be a case, a book, an anti human trafficking movement, 91 00:05:21.759 --> 00:05:23.720 and they're truly the leaders of all of this. 92 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:26.839 You write about early on in this you were the 93 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:30.279 prosecutor for the state of California, County of San Joaquin, 94 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.720 and you write about December seventh, two thousand and four 95 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:35.639 in the story you call Well on a story, the 96 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:38.959 chapter you call entitled the Motel. Tell us about what 97 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:42.079 you found out about this particular motel. 98 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:45.600 Well, when I first started my career as a prosecutor, 99 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:48.879 I was a deputy district attorney, and that's the local 100 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:52.920 county office that prosecutes crime in that region. Although they 101 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:56.519 are enforcing state law, and based on my experience in 102 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.720 prosecuting some of the prostitution cases, I really that the 103 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:04.720 prostitutes shouldn't be where they were. I saw them as victims. 104 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:08.040 The narrative of them staring at me in orange jumpsuits 105 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:10.439 being prosecuted for selling their bodies and the dead of 106 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:14.920 night didn't fit, and I wanted to explore what we 107 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:18.279 could do differently, who was helping these people, if anyone, 108 00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:20.959 why they were there, how it started, and what we 109 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:23.560 could do to make it stop. And I was able 110 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:28.000 to work up an investigation against the local motel that 111 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:32.279 really had become the hub for commercial sex, and instead 112 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:36.319 of helping these vulnerable teenagers that were literally being sold 113 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:39.199 in his parking lot, it appeared that the owner of 114 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.720 the motel was really just continuing to enable the commercial 115 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.560 sex trade and clearly benefiting from it. Some of the 116 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.839 evidence that we were able to obtain showed that he 117 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:56.279 was actually handing out condoms and renting rooms to known predators. 118 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.000 And so because based on that, we were able to 119 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.399 kind of take systematic approach, So it wasn't about just 120 00:07:02.519 --> 00:07:05.839 one person, it was about shutting down a real hub 121 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.120 of an industry in that area. And so shutting that 122 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:12.079 motel was kind of my first dip in my career 123 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.680 into making a case that's more systematic. 124 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:19.720 You charged the motel owner with committing prostitution and pimping, 125 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:23.120 and so as you say, you shut down this motel, 126 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:27.120 But to your horror, what did you find about afterwards 127 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:30.839 when this motel was shut down? What else did you find? 128 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:34.160 Well, I mean, it did shut down one corridor of 129 00:07:34.279 --> 00:07:37.759 human trafficking. But as my career continued, and at the 130 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:40.720 same time, the legal landscape around human trafficking was changing. 131 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.000 In California, for example, it wasn't until two thousand and 132 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.519 six that we first passed our human trafficking law. And 133 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.519 you know, as this legal landscape is changing, I'm moving 134 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:53.560 through my career doing bigger, more serious cases. And by 135 00:07:53.600 --> 00:07:56.680 the time I got to the Attorney General's office where 136 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:01.160 I was a supervising Deputy Attorney General, the motel metamorphosized 137 00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:04.000 into a website and that was backpage dot Com. 138 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:08.199 And you say that it was more lucrative, more prolific, 139 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:11.040 and more evasive than the motel had ever been. 140 00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:13.319 That's right. You know, it wasn't sitting on a street 141 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:16.279 corner where I could survey it, it was in cyberspace, 142 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:19.079 and it was active in eight hundred cities around the world. 143 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:22.360 What was your legal strategy You said it was the same. 144 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:24.120 What was the legal strategy for this? 145 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:26.560 The way the legal strategy was the same was it 146 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:29.360 was about following the money and disrupting a system. 147 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:33.200 Can you talk about Operation Wilted Flower for US? 148 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.639 Sure, Operation Wilted Flower and is discussing the book, and 149 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:40.919 it's basically an example of how we were innovative and 150 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:44.240 used financial crimes to go after human trafficking. But it 151 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:49.879 involved a ring of brothels that were sometimes residential brothels 152 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:53.000 so just you know, looked like basic houses, but inside 153 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.639 people were being sold for commercial sex. And then also 154 00:08:55.799 --> 00:09:00.440 some massage establishments that appeared to be regular massage establishments 155 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.600 but were really brothels for commercial sex, and so we 156 00:09:03.679 --> 00:09:07.639 went after those. We went after those cases. We were 157 00:09:07.720 --> 00:09:11.600 able to infiltrate several trafficking rings that way, and we 158 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:15.080 were able to again follow money and disrupt a system. 159 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:18.919 You say that, you talk about the California Statutes was 160 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:23.120 similar to the Federal Trafficking Victims Protection Act, whichs been 161 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:26.600 codified a few years before. You say, tell us about 162 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:29.000 this law and the statute. 163 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:33.799 Sure, most states do have statutes that nearor the federal law, 164 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.519 and the federal law has evolved over time, started in 165 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:40.360 the early two thousands, and it protects people from being 166 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:44.360 trafficked by force, fear, or coercion. And I think coersions 167 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:47.519 are really important word. And I'll say too because I 168 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:51.600 know this is a true crime podcast and people are 169 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:54.519 focused on gruesome and gory details and murders and all 170 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:57.360 of that. But what we found with sex trafficking is 171 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:00.679 a lot of the cases happened with coercion with force, 172 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.759 but it's more manipulation. And you know, I think it's 173 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:07.600 real important that that is part of the statute. 174 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.600 You talk about that the law was inspired by a 175 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:14.960 nineteen ninety five case in California. Ty garment worker escaped 176 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:18.080 from a sweatshop in El Monte, a commercial city in 177 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:21.720 La County. Tell us just this is a very illustrative example. 178 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:25.200 Tell us about this person that escaped from the sweatshop. 179 00:10:25.480 --> 00:10:30.240 That's right. The modern human trafficking movement really started based 180 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:34.519 on this heroic escape and the sharing of the story, 181 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.360 and that brought about awareness and new laws aimed at 182 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:43.519 human trafficking. So this was seventy or more people that 183 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:47.159 were living in slave like conditions behind barbed wire at 184 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:49.960 a sweatshop. This wasn't a sex trafficking case. This was 185 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.320 a labor trafficking case. And I should flag that human 186 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:57.799 trafficking is an umbrella term that encompasses both labor and sex. 187 00:10:58.200 --> 00:11:00.519 The point of it is that the person is not 188 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.320 free to leave, and so it's actually not the nature 189 00:11:03.360 --> 00:11:07.399 of the work, whether it's sex or washing dishes or 190 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.639 working in a garment factory. It's the fact that the 191 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:13.799 person is being forced or being coerced and isn't free 192 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.960 to leave. And that was certainly the case back in 193 00:11:17.000 --> 00:11:21.720 the tight the tai garment factory industry in the Los 194 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:23.600 Angeles area in the early nineties. 195 00:11:23.879 --> 00:11:26.799 You jump ahead a little bit to twenty ten. You 196 00:11:26.919 --> 00:11:29.519 approached the chief of your division and proposed starting a 197 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:33.879 new unit with someone named a mentor named Dave Drewliner 198 00:11:34.120 --> 00:11:37.919 that would focus on organized crime. What did you want 199 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:40.799 to do by focusing on organized crime? What were you 200 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:44.279 going to include in that organized crime effort? 201 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.039 I really wanted a human trafficking unit. I knew we 202 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:50.720 needed that, and I knew that that should be our focus. 203 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:53.960 But I thought that organized crime was a broader term 204 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:57.279 and perhaps I would be able to smuggle the human 205 00:11:57.320 --> 00:11:58.759 trafficking work into the unit. 206 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:03.519 So what is the climate at that time in America 207 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:09.360 in terms of consideration for sex trafficking, human trafficking, and 208 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:12.559 then what happens in your own fight to be able 209 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:17.120 to form this team and to make some meaningful prosecutions, the. 210 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:20.879 Climate was tough. There were definitely survivors and advocates who 211 00:12:20.960 --> 00:12:25.279 were trying to raise awareness, but within the law enforcement community, 212 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.879 there weren't a lot of cases that were being prosecuted. 213 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.759 It was still sting operations where those selling their bodies 214 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:36.000 for sex were being arrested or those buying informally called John's, 215 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:38.399 but people who are buying sex purchasers of sex being 216 00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:41.879 arrested in sting operations. But there really wasn't an effort 217 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:45.159 to go after the organized crime aspect of human trafficking, 218 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:49.120 and there weren't a lot of resources, especially for survivors. 219 00:12:49.639 --> 00:12:55.600 You talk about a investigative genius name Ray Diaz, what 220 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:59.279 did he develop ultimately that would help in this fight? 221 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.519 Ideas is for sure an investigative genius, and I was 222 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:05.799 lucky to be able to work with him on this 223 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:08.080 case and on pretty much everything else I did at DJ. 224 00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:11.559 But he was really the brains behind Operation Wilted Flower, 225 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:13.759 which he asked about a little while ago, and what 226 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.960 he came up with was a strategy to get informants 227 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.600 into these brothels and massage partlers that I mentioned, And 228 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:23.080 so he was able to basically wire them up for 229 00:13:23.240 --> 00:13:26.919 video and audio and get them to infiltrate these brothels 230 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:30.120 and bring back footage that showed the victims, you know, 231 00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:34.320 the suspects, and real audio about how the operation was working. 232 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.960 He would have the informants pretend either that they were 233 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:41.840 trying to be customers or that they were trying to 234 00:13:41.879 --> 00:13:44.840 set up a similar business and wanted to talk about 235 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:48.759 rotating some of the victims. And he really did a 236 00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:51.600 tremendous job with it, and it ended up allowing us 237 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:56.600 to bust several locations, offer services to survivors, and take 238 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:59.519 some really bad actors out of the industry. 239 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:04.000 Let's talk about an actual prosecution now, another one that 240 00:14:04.080 --> 00:14:08.679 you feature this Andrew Jordan charged with sex trafficking and 241 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.600 an ed victim named Tasha. So let's talk as you 242 00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:16.919 do in the book tell us about Tasha and Andrew Jordan. 243 00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:18.879 Yeah, I mean that part of the book is important 244 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.279 because I think it really lays out how sex trafficking 245 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.600 happens in that case. It started with an ad where 246 00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:31.000 Tasha met Jordan and he manipulated her. At the time, 247 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.399 she was really vulnerable. She was on her own, she 248 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.039 was young, she needed money, she had some emotional challenges, 249 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:43.480 and she presented with a lot of the vulnerabilities that 250 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:47.559 are really common among victims. And Jordan used all of 251 00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:51.879 those vulnerabilities to his advantage. He completely pushed her into 252 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:55.039 the sex trade, made her continue, and then really started 253 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:58.679 requiring her to make a quota each night, tell him 254 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.480 everything that happened. And you know, a few weeks in 255 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:03.919 he was controlling her every move and that is the 256 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:07.919 kind of coercive control that is typical of a trafficking case. 257 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.799 So we laid all that out, We went to trial 258 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:12.600 on that case. She was one of two victims of 259 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:15.679 Jordan's and he was ultimately convicted at the end. 260 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.120 Now that gives you some confidence, and but what does 261 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:22.600 happen as a result of that prosecution. 262 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.200 As a result of that prosecution, he was convicted of 263 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.159 two counts of sex trafficking as well as I believe 264 00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:31.919 assault in domestic violence, and he was sentenced to a 265 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:33.279 prison term in California. 266 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.399 What about the concept of aiding and a betting and 267 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:38.879 how does it relate to this? And you talk about 268 00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:41.559 in two thy and thirteen a. 269 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:46.320 Really important concept in criminal law in California and everywhere else. 270 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:49.519 It's the idea that when somebody is responsible for a crime, 271 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.240 it's not just the principal who goes in and uses 272 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:56.080 the gun and takes the money. It's everybody who knowingly 273 00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:58.600 helped set it up. So you know, if it's a 274 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.960 convenience store robbery, you have the person that drove there, 275 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:04.320 you have the person that provided the gun. You have 276 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.240 the person that played lookout, you have the person that 277 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.480 drove the getaway car. You have a number of people 278 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.279 who may have been involved in some way, and as 279 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.480 long as they do so knowingly with that same intent 280 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.519 to rob the convenience store, they are legally on the hook. 281 00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.159 And what's important about human trafficking and what we learned 282 00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.840 from the other cases is that most of these defendants 283 00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:26.240 aren't acting on their own. They're getting some help. And 284 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:28.960 in the case of backpage back Page was the one 285 00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:29.559 that was helping. 286 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.960 You talk about back Page in eight hundred cities, and 287 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.639 you talk about twenty twelve, human trafficking was recognized as 288 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:40.639 the world's second largest criminal business, with only the manufacturer 289 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:45.039 of sale of drugs being more so. But you also write, 290 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:47.200 and I've heard this expression before, you can only sell 291 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.200 a drug once, but you can sell a young girl 292 00:16:49.320 --> 00:16:51.159 a child over and over and over again. 293 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.720 I hate that expression, but yes, it's true. And unlike drugs, 294 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:57.360 we're talking about people here, and it's really the most 295 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:58.960 vulnerable people in our society. 296 00:16:59.320 --> 00:17:02.279 Very very interesting. You talk about a little bit later 297 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:04.759 in the book how it came upon that to pass 298 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:09.119 by Congress in nineteen ninety six the Communications Decency Act, 299 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.720 which protected online platforms. This is an important issue to 300 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.079 this story. Can you explain that for us? 301 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.799 Yes, this is a really important issue. And you know, 302 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:19.680 this kind of goes back to your question about what 303 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.519 this what it was like prosecuting this motel versus this website, 304 00:17:23.599 --> 00:17:26.599 And the biggest difference is the Communications Decency Act, which 305 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:29.119 has nothing to do with motels but has everything to 306 00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.160 do with protecting websites. And the idea of the law 307 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:37.880 is to protect online platforms from liability when based on 308 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.720 content posted by users. This law had protected back Page 309 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.400 for many years. It protected back Page from civil suits 310 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.000 and initially protected back Page from the case that my 311 00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:49.799 office filed. 312 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:53.559 Now you say, before you have to go after Backpage, 313 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:58.559 you needed an investigation plan, and one of those priorities 314 00:17:58.759 --> 00:18:02.079 was to be able to get a search warrant for emails. 315 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.000 Tell us why that was so important and what was 316 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.039 your investigation plan at that time? 317 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:09.440 That's right, And I think you know, it's important to 318 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:13.200 know just you know, what it really takes to investigate 319 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:16.079 these kinds of cases. I mean, it's not the kind 320 00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.759 of thing that can be summed up in a you know, 321 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.240 a one hour episode of Law and Order. It really 322 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:25.599 takes extensive planning and resources and just building these cases 323 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:28.359 step by step by step. I was trying to figure 324 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:30.880 out who was running the company and how I knew 325 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:33.480 who Some of the owners might be on paper, but 326 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:36.640 I had no idea what their involvement were. Sometimes companies 327 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.160 have shareholders who aren't involved at all and have no 328 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:43.000 idea what's actually happening. Sometimes companies have investors. Sometimes companies 329 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.559 have you know, day to day operators who are really, 330 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:48.119 you know, running the illicit part of the business. So 331 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:50.799 I needed a lot of information to even figure out 332 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:53.559 who could be a suspect in this case. And this 333 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:56.759 is really, you know, typical of how we approach our investigations. 334 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.680 We looked for ways to get search warrants to find 335 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:03.960 that may be useful to a criminal case. So in 336 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:07.160 this case, we were looking and we knew that Carl 337 00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:10.079 Fair was the CEO, and we were looking to figure 338 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:13.400 out whether we could get into his emails to figure 339 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.000 out who he was communicating with and what he was 340 00:19:16.119 --> 00:19:18.319 communicating about. To run back Page. 341 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:22.359 You talked about Lacey and Larkin. They had built a 342 00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:26.519 news media empire called New Times Media, and with that 343 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.920 it's really helping the Backpage. They defended their right to 344 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.599 run the world largest online brothel, didn't they. 345 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:36.559 That's right they have. They've defended themselves. They see this 346 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:41.039 as a free speech issue, and using the Communications Decency Act, 347 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.720 they continued to build their empire. 348 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:48.680 What's horrifying was that Larkin and Lacy own the company 349 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.200 and would show up at meetings with the National Center 350 00:19:52.359 --> 00:19:56.359 for Missing and Exploited Children along with shareholder Don Moon. 351 00:19:56.559 --> 00:19:57.799 Tell us us a little bit about this. 352 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:02.680 Yeah, and this came up in the congressional investigation of Backpage. 353 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:06.319 But the National Center for Missing Exploited Children actually reaches 354 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:09.119 out and meets with back Page to talk about the 355 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:13.279 fact that missing children were showing up on this website 356 00:20:13.480 --> 00:20:16.839 again and again. And National Center for Missing Exploited Children 357 00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:21.519 gets tip reports for missing kids and suspected commercially exploited kids, 358 00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:24.519 and these kids often are found on back Page or 359 00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.559 matched on back Page. And so the point of the meeting, 360 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.319 according to the documents that were in the congressional report, 361 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:34.680 was to kind of give back Page some guidance on 362 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:37.799 how to how to basically stop kids from being sexually 363 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.920 commercially exploited on the website. Back Page walked away from 364 00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:41.279 the table. 365 00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:45.559 Sure, you talk about Kamala Harris and her role, and 366 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:48.720 her role will be more important as time goes on, 367 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.240 But you also talk about an interesting group called Thorn. 368 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.599 Tell us about Thorn, who's involved with Thorn and what 369 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:57.759 they were specifically able to do. 370 00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:03.279 Yes, Thorn is an incredible nonprofit organization and what they've 371 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.039 done is basically used use the Internet and use special 372 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:12.480 software to attempt to minimize and interrupt the commercial sexual 373 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.480 exploitation of children online. I was able to work with 374 00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:19.400 Thorn on one of our early operations in the backbase investigation. 375 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:24.240 They used an analytics program to tag backpage posts that 376 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:29.119 appeared more likely to be minors than adults. And I'll 377 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:31.240 treface this by saying, one of the things that's really 378 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:33.599 hard in these cases is you go through these ads 379 00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:35.880 and you see these pictures and I'm focused on the 380 00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:38.519 female section because that's our investigation, but there's there were 381 00:21:38.599 --> 00:21:40.319 there were boys and men on there as well. But 382 00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:42.599 you see these pictures of these girls and they could 383 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:44.960 be sixteen or they could be twenty five, and you 384 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:47.599 really don't know. You don't really know whether or not 385 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:49.759 they're a minor from just looking at the pictures, but 386 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.799 you look for clues. And some of the clues we 387 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:56.599 looked for were it's a Bay Area ad and the 388 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.720 phone numbers a Las Vegas area code, and then you 389 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:02.400 look up that phone number and see several girls that 390 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.839 are advertised using that phone number in different places. So 391 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:08.880 clues like that give us an idea of whether it 392 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:11.920 might be trafficking. And then just looking at the pictures 393 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:14.400 and the background and the whether it's a hotel background, 394 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:17.160 and that sort of thing casing together these cases. But 395 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.759 what Thorn did was really to come up with an 396 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:23.279 analytics program that could analyze that sort of data, could 397 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:25.960 look for clues and how the ads were written and 398 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:29.079 come back with information. So part of it was we 399 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:32.319 were trying to test their programming to see whether it 400 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:35.039 was useful or not. And then also we were trying 401 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:40.400 to recover minor sex trafficking victims. So using information that 402 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:44.160 they provided to us early on from their program, we 403 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:47.119 were able to make contact with the people and the 404 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:49.799 ads who they thought were most likely to be minors. 405 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:54.519 You talk about Special Agent Brian Fischner being assigned to 406 00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:58.559 the case. With his help, you continued investigating back page 407 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:02.400 structure and who were the company officers and where the 408 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:04.880 day to live. How else do you continue with this 409 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.119 pursuit of these people. 410 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:09.400 That's right. Brian was so great to work with. He 411 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.119 was really just so smart and diligent and worked so 412 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:15.519 hard on this case. He had a lot of good ideas, 413 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.440 and one of them was that he placed an ad 414 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:23.640 on back page using an undercover officer picture, and he 415 00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:26.759 posted it. He used an undercover phone number and used 416 00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:30.759 an undercover credit card to purchase the ad. The point 417 00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:32.680 of this was a few things. One to be able 418 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:35.519 to later trace the money too, to be able to 419 00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:39.519 see what kind of reception a regular ad would get. 420 00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:42.000 Were all the people calling for commercial sex or were 421 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:44.400 some of them just calling for you know, other kinds 422 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:46.279 of dating. We wanted to know the extent of it, 423 00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:48.680 and then we also wanted what happened when he asked 424 00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.440 to get it taken down. So within minutes of the 425 00:23:51.519 --> 00:23:54.480 ad being placed, the undercover officer that was managing the 426 00:23:54.559 --> 00:23:58.680 phone was getting hundreds of calls and texts, and the 427 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:02.960 nature of them was purely sexual, very graphic, obviously calls 428 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:06.759 for commercial sex. The people that were calling were expecting 429 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:09.720 the person at the other end to fulfill all sorts 430 00:24:09.759 --> 00:24:12.200 of sexual desires and to meet up. So that was 431 00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:14.680 very clear. I think there were you know, eight hundred 432 00:24:14.720 --> 00:24:18.079 and six slimy phone calls and texts in a matter 433 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.079 of a few days. And then Brian's next step was 434 00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:24.240 contacting Backpage to try and get the ad taken down. 435 00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:26.680 And so I'll continue a little bit with how that 436 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:30.880 worked out, But basically Brian called Carl Fair, the CEO, 437 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:34.640 on his cell phone, and said, you know, Essentially, we 438 00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:37.400 suspect that this is a sex trafficking ad. Brian caught 439 00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.359 off guard that he actually picked up the phone, but 440 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.319 he did, and so they talked for a few minutes 441 00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:44.799 and then he said he'd send a follow up email, 442 00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:48.559 and that is how we established Carl Fair's email address, 443 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.920 and he did end up he did end up taking 444 00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:54.359 down the ad, but that gave us a really useful 445 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:56.920 clue for being able to initiate. 446 00:24:56.599 --> 00:24:59.720 Us Percharrant fantastic. Let's use as as an opportunity to 447 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:03.119 talk about our sponsor, which is Talkspace. Don't make mental 448 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:05.359 health your goal this year, make it part of your 449 00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:09.240 daily routine with talkspace. Talkspace lets you get the help 450 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:12.240 that you need to make strides in your mental health 451 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:15.359 throughout the year. Talkspace makes it simple for you to 452 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:18.519 match with a licensed therapist offering all the benefits of 453 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.400 therapy in your own comfortable setting. Talkspace has thousands of 454 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:27.440 licensed therapists across dozens of specialties. Through talkspace security features 455 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:31.119 and encryption, your conversations are fully protected. Make your mental 456 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:34.920 health more than just another New Year's resolution with Talkspace. 457 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:38.640 Visit talkspace dot com. And get one hundred dollars off 458 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:41.319 your first month when you use promo code true murder 459 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:44.880 at sign up. That's one hundred dollars off at talkspace 460 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.440 dot com promo code true murder. Now, Maggie, you were 461 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.960 talking about the clue that would lead to the successful 462 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:58.519 search warrant potentially for the emails of company executives and 463 00:25:58.680 --> 00:26:02.279 people involved in the data day operations. What was that 464 00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:03.880 clue that was discovered? 465 00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.200 That's right, We learned that so after Brian had talked 466 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:09.599 to Carl fair we and received an email. We knew 467 00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:12.400 his email address, and then we learned that that email 468 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.599 address was actually on a Google server. So rather than 469 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:18.839 having to track down the website servers that in the 470 00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:21.759 email service that might exist for this company that we 471 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:25.839 knew by this point was headquartered in Texas, and I 472 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:27.920 think we knew that there was an office in Arizona 473 00:26:28.119 --> 00:26:30.480 and then some movement off seas, but we really weren't 474 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.759 sure where in California we could connect the dots on this. 475 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.480 But we discovered that Google actually held the email servers, 476 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:39.400 and so we were able to send our search warrant 477 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:40.000 right to Google. 478 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:44.680 Tell us about November twenty fifteen, with the Attorney General 479 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.279 executive team in San Francisco. 480 00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.200 So I think we skipped a little bit over and 481 00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:53.400 a little bit over Vice President Harris's role when she 482 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:55.680 first came to the Attorney General's office. That was a 483 00:26:55.759 --> 00:26:59.279 major boost for anti trafficking efforts in the office. She 484 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:03.559 wanted us to focus on human trafficking and it was 485 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.480 definitely a top priority and that really gave me a 486 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.240 lot of to start building a case against back Page. 487 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:13.799 But when I got to that meeting in November twenty fifteen, 488 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.359 I felt like all of my hard work up until 489 00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:18.599 that point kind of meant nothing. It was really hard. 490 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:22.400 The lawyers in the meeting were great, they were asking 491 00:27:22.519 --> 00:27:24.920 tough questions, but I didn't feel like they really got 492 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:27.599 the case. And at the end of the meeting, I 493 00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:29.079 didn't get approval to file it. 494 00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:33.480 Yeah, you talk about the Communications Decency Act again and 495 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:36.400 how you have to prepare to be able to defend 496 00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:37.640 against it. How do you do that? 497 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.839 That's right? So the Communications Decency Act isn't without exceptions. 498 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:45.680 When the person that owns the website creates some of 499 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:49.400 the content, they're not protected. And when the person that 500 00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:53.240 runs a website, I argued, is involved in criminality and 501 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:58.039 is involved in this extent of criminality knowingly that that 502 00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.119 should be an exception too. But the court didn't agree 503 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:04.400 with me on that point, and the court ultimately didn't 504 00:28:04.599 --> 00:28:08.400 find enough content creation to find them outside of the 505 00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:11.559 Communications Decency Act. But what I was preparing during this 506 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:15.960 part was really to show how Backpage helped post these ads, 507 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:20.480 the way they moderated the ads, the way they helped users, 508 00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.960 the way they gave law enforcement the bare minimum, but 509 00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:26.559 didn't really do anything to let law enforcement get in 510 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:28.599 front of the problem. And so my theory was that 511 00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:31.680 developing these facts would take them out of the protection 512 00:28:31.880 --> 00:28:33.400 of the Communications Decency Act. 513 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:40.039 Right, you find that Backpage assists traffickers and posting ads 514 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:44.039 and victims without alerting law enforcement. You also talk about 515 00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:47.440 that staff would reach out to these users to offer 516 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:51.319 special credits and ways to use bitcoin. Tell us more 517 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:54.799 about the damaging and incriminating evidence that is found. 518 00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:57.799 Right, And back Page did a whole lot more to 519 00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:02.720 help users, and it did to assist law enforcement. Clearly, 520 00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:06.759 their business model was to continue to aggressively sell their product, 521 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:10.839 and they use bitcoin and you know, other strategies to 522 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:14.640 essentially be evasive and evade law enforcement. Their goal was 523 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.559 to continue to build the world's top online brothel. 524 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.000 You're meeting with victims routinely, and you mentioned a victim 525 00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.359 named Carissa, and she's an important person in this story 526 00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:28.680 as well. What does Carissa do for you or introduce you? 527 00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:30.160 To tell us about Carissa. 528 00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:33.720 I would never call Carissa Phelps a victim. She happens 529 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.480 to be a survivor of sex trafficking, but she's also 530 00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:39.200 an author and a lawyer and a partner at a 531 00:29:39.319 --> 00:29:42.599 law firm and has had such an amazing career. I 532 00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:45.960 was inspired by her book that came out a while ago, 533 00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.319 but she was she was running, you know, several different 534 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:54.759 organizations to help survivors of trafficking and help raise awareness 535 00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.319 within law enforcement. She was doing a bunch of trainings. 536 00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:59.720 So I met her through you know, a network of 537 00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:02.400 people that we're doing similar work, and she talked to 538 00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:04.680 me about back Page and you know, I already knew 539 00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:07.440 about it at the time, every prosecutor did, but she 540 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:10.480 was she really gave me a push. I remember, you know, 541 00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:12.480 sitting with her in the conference room and she said, 542 00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:15.640 how can you let this website do this? How can 543 00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.640 people just be sold in an open marketplace on the internet. 544 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:20.960 This happened on the corner. It would be shut down 545 00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:23.359 in a heartbeat. Why is this okay? And it really 546 00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:26.359 kind of pushed me and challenged me, and I knew 547 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:30.039 it wasn't okay, and I was dedicated and determined to 548 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:30.640 make a stop. 549 00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:34.240 You talk about Flight twenty one, and you talk about 550 00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:37.759 a task force if being formed or a new unit 551 00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:40.599 pardon me, being formed in Texas, and you called this 552 00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.400 person cursed the Melton tell us about that conversation. 553 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.079 That's right, Well, I already told you, Dan that I 554 00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.119 had been trying to get a task force going in 555 00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:53.000 California since twenty ten. And I think a colleague, you know, 556 00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:56.960 sent me an article about Texas starting a unit just 557 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.200 to sort of rib me a little bit that everybody 558 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.640 else was able to do this, and I still hadn't. 559 00:31:01.720 --> 00:31:04.440 But I called Kirston Melton, who was the head of 560 00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:07.920 that unit, and I introduced myself and we started getting 561 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.799 to know each other, and we were talking about different 562 00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:12.359 trends that we were seeing in our respective states, the 563 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:16.480 growing gang involvement in sex trafficking, the way that people 564 00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:19.359 were being moved around, the challenges we were facing in 565 00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:23.519 our cases, the barriers that we saw for survivors for 566 00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:27.440 reporting and working with law enforcement, just the challenge of 567 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.720 a lack of resources and a lack of support for survivors. 568 00:31:31.799 --> 00:31:33.599 And so we talked through all those things and really 569 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:36.799 built a relationship, and eventually I confided in her that 570 00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:40.960 we were investigating Backpage, and she of course knew what 571 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:44.480 it was, and she immediately wanted to help. And we 572 00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:46.880 talked about the fact that the headquarters was in Dallas, 573 00:31:47.480 --> 00:31:50.680 and there she was in Texas to get a different 574 00:31:50.720 --> 00:31:54.279 part of Texas, but still in Texas Texas Attorney General's office. 575 00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.759 So we made a pack to work together on the case, 576 00:31:58.279 --> 00:32:00.319 and she ended up being a tremendous help. 577 00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:03.720 You talk about text messages while you're on a vacation 578 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:06.519 from Kamala Harris. What does she have to say when 579 00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:07.279 you finally get to. 580 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.720 Talk to her, That's right. So we talked about my 581 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.000 meeting in twenty fifteen where I didn't get the green light, 582 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:13.759 and I should say that they didn't say not to 583 00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:16.599 keep investigating it. They definitely said keep going, but I 584 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:18.720 just didn't know whether I would get approval to file 585 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:22.359 the case. And time went on and I was very 586 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.599 anxious to get this case charge. I felt like I 587 00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:27.519 was running out of time, and every night more people 588 00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:29.279 were being sold on this website. So I was on 589 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:32.200 a little vacation, which was pretty rare for me at 590 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:35.559 the time, and I was with my son actually kayaking 591 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.039 in the lake, and my phone kept bringing I brought 592 00:32:39.079 --> 00:32:40.680 it with me because we were going to take some pictures, 593 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:43.640 and I saw that it was the Chief Deputy and 594 00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:45.680 they kept calling them like I had better pick up. 595 00:32:45.759 --> 00:32:48.799 So I picked up and it was the actual Attorney General, 596 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.680 Kamala Harris, which is pretty rare for her to call, 597 00:32:52.799 --> 00:32:55.279 to reach way down the ORG charge to call, but 598 00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.480 there she was. And you know, I'm trying to kayak. 599 00:32:58.559 --> 00:33:01.039 I've got my kid right there. I'm in a small 600 00:33:01.079 --> 00:33:03.839 boat that I'm trying not to tip. My phone receptions 601 00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:06.279 cutting out, so I'm a little bit panicked. I'm like 602 00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:08.599 folding the phone with my shoulder in my ear, and 603 00:33:08.680 --> 00:33:11.839 I'm paddling, paddling, paddling back to the dock. I jump 604 00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:14.279 out of the dock and basically wearing a bathing suit 605 00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:16.440 and no flip flocks, and I just start, you know, 606 00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:19.000 running up the up the dock and through the parking 607 00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:20.519 lot and up the hill to try and get some 608 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:22.920 semblance of cell phone reception. And she's asking me a 609 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:26.000 bunch of questions and I can understand about every fourth word, 610 00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:28.400 and my heart is pounding, for sure, because I've been 611 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:30.359 waiting for this call for years by this point. But 612 00:33:30.519 --> 00:33:33.400 we have a really great conversation and we talked through 613 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.359 the case, and at the end of the call, she says, go. 614 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:40.039 Get them you right that. Meanwhile, the jury back in 615 00:33:40.119 --> 00:33:44.359 the Jordan case is he's guilty on all counts and 616 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:49.599 most importantly, the jury believed the account of Alicia and Tasha. 617 00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:54.359 He got twenty one years, two counts of sex trafficking, pimping, 618 00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:56.079 and assault. How did that feel? 619 00:33:56.319 --> 00:33:59.160 That's right? It was really important. It's really important. I mean, 620 00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.240 these these survivors who have the courage to come to 621 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:08.039 court and testify and face their abusers. It takes tremendous courage. 622 00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:11.039 And you know what sets them apart is that they 623 00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:13.400 were they were willing to do that, and it's a 624 00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:16.320 it's a really really hard thing. And the verdict tells 625 00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:20.199 them that the jury believes them and that what happened 626 00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.960 to them matters, that they matter, and that what happened 627 00:34:23.960 --> 00:34:27.440 to them was wrong and it's not okay, and you know, 628 00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:29.639 we can't we can't fix all the problems. I mean, 629 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:33.599 the healing process is life long for many of these survivors. 630 00:34:33.800 --> 00:34:36.119 But that was an incredible step for them. 631 00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:40.079 You're right about Brian Fitchner again, and he goes to 632 00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:43.679 the judge for these crucial search warrants. Does the judge 633 00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:46.360 sign these warrants and for the restaurants? 634 00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:49.159 Yes, So after we got the green light, we were, 635 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.400 you know, kind of scurrying to set everything up and 636 00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:54.599 figure out the operation. And by then we felt like 637 00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:57.760 we had built a solid case. Brian put together really 638 00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.880 strong arrest warrants and he went to the courthouse to 639 00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:04.679 see whether a judge would sign off on the arrest 640 00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.039 of Carl Ferrer and the two other owners. 641 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:10.760 So there is a very dramatic part of this book 642 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.079 that talks about capturing these people and making sure that 643 00:35:14.320 --> 00:35:16.480 no one gets to you know, it's all in secret, 644 00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:18.920 so people you don't want, you want to have this 645 00:35:19.039 --> 00:35:21.880 element of surprise with these people and is very exciting 646 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.000 in terms of the extradition fight as well. But tell 647 00:35:25.079 --> 00:35:27.480 us a little bit just about what's happening at the 648 00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:30.599 same time in terms of the search warrant in Texas. 649 00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:35.039 Sure, so the judge in Sacramento did sign the arrest warrants. 650 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:38.599 So I remember Brian Fickner texting me that he felt 651 00:35:38.639 --> 00:35:40.800 like he was holding a lottery ticket with these with 652 00:35:40.920 --> 00:35:44.760 these warrants, so those get put into a system whereever 653 00:35:44.920 --> 00:35:48.360 these defendants are, they are arrestable at that point. At 654 00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:52.000 that point Brian and I both went to Texas. We 655 00:35:52.119 --> 00:35:55.519 knew that Carl Ferrer was arriving on flight twenty one, 656 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.519 which was a flight from the Netherlands where he had 657 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:02.199 been to Houston Hobby Lobby Airport. That was the longest 658 00:36:02.239 --> 00:36:04.320 flight of my life that I was never on. Ryan 659 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.679 was in Houston at the airport. I was in Dallas, Texas, 660 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.880 waiting to go into the headquarters of back Page. We 661 00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:13.079 had a search warrant that was signed by a Texas 662 00:36:13.159 --> 00:36:16.679 judge that Kirsta had worked on simultaneously, and the goal 663 00:36:16.840 --> 00:36:19.719 was to be able to search the offices once the 664 00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:24.119 defendants were already under arrest. We didn't want to go 665 00:36:24.199 --> 00:36:27.199 into the offices before Pharaoh was under arrest because if 666 00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:29.840 he found out, we thought there was a chance that 667 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:33.800 he could flee and that every criminal case where you're 668 00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:36.039 doing this kind of work, you have to kind of 669 00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.800 think through worst case scenarios and figure out how to 670 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.840 game plan. You have to worry about whether a suspect 671 00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:45.159 has evidence that they can destroy, whether through their cell 672 00:36:45.199 --> 00:36:48.480 phone or their laptop, and then you have to worry 673 00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:52.199 about whether there's any safety issues for you know, whether 674 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:55.360 they might flee the country and be impossible to find. 675 00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:57.679 Let's use it that an opportunity to stop for a 676 00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.280 second for these commercial messages. 677 00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:03.239 Wait, Uicky land sluts, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 678 00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.000 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 679 00:37:07.079 --> 00:37:08.880 weather's five. But we're just going to circle up here 680 00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:11.960 a while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. 681 00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:14.440 It's just these cash prizes add up quick. So I 682 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:16.840 suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, 683 00:37:16.920 --> 00:37:18.079 and start getting lucky. 684 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.719 Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are you 685 00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.519 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 686 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:29.199 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 687 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:33.119 Now you talk about a tentative ruling. Everyone is excited, 688 00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:35.840 but there's a tentative ruling, and what does this tentative 689 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:40.400 ruling say to you tell you so, we brought so 690 00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:40.840 we were. 691 00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:44.840 Able to successfully extradite Calfarer. We had all three defendants 692 00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:48.400 in custody in a Sacramento County courtroom. They were charged 693 00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:53.719 with multiple felonies pimping and conspiracy. But very early on 694 00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:56.159 in the case, the defense moved to dismiss the case 695 00:37:56.800 --> 00:37:59.679 using the Communications Decency Act. I knew it was coming, 696 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:02.039 thought it was well prepared for it, and I thought 697 00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.800 I had a wedding argument, but the judge clearly disagreed. 698 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.800 The tentative ruling was a ruling basically dismissing our case. 699 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:12.519 So I pulled myself together and went to court and 700 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:15.360 argued as best I could. I thought I gave him 701 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:17.679 some hooks to kind of hang his hat on and 702 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:20.400 give us a ruling that would allow us to survive. 703 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:24.840 But unfortunately I didn't. We you know, we got kicked 704 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:26.679 out of court very early on in the case. 705 00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:30.719 Yeah, you talk about Right about twenty seventeen, the US 706 00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:35.639 Senate would issue a scathing report detailing how Backpage was 707 00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:39.400 trafficking children, so right that he would refer then the 708 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:42.639 matter to the US Attorney General for criminal charges. And 709 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:46.599 a year later the phenomena of the me too movement. 710 00:38:46.800 --> 00:38:50.440 So tell us how things change. Some things like you 711 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.840 talk about Jeffrey Epstein's arrest and indictment, and then you 712 00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:56.480 talk about you were in contact with a person named 713 00:38:56.840 --> 00:39:01.840 Bassen Banafa, a forensic Auditor'll tell us about what happens 714 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:05.880 as a result of this me too movement and shifting 715 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:10.000 societal attitude and the frential Sure. 716 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:12.679 So, I mean, I felt like things were starting to shift, 717 00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:15.320 but they weren't shifting fast enough, not fast enough for 718 00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:17.800 these survivors that were suffering, not fast enough for me 719 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:20.400 in my case. And I was I remember just sitting 720 00:39:20.599 --> 00:39:23.719 in my office just really crushed that our case had 721 00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:25.639 been dismissed and I was trying to figure out how 722 00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:28.159 I could put it back together. But Assome Binoffa had 723 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:31.480 worked with me on other cases and is a forensic 724 00:39:31.559 --> 00:39:35.760 auditor and really really just such an incredibly hard worker 725 00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:39.000 and smart guy. He was a major asset in this case, 726 00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:41.960 and he helped me come up with a money laundering 727 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:44.000 theory for the case. So we had gotten all of 728 00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.719 these bank records when we did the search warrants during 729 00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:50.719 the arrest, which was only a couple months before this dismissal, 730 00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:53.280 so we started putting together the bank records and building 731 00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:56.519 a money laundering case, and that's ultimately how we prevailed. 732 00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:00.199 So two days before Christmas in twenty sixteen, about two 733 00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:02.880 months after the case had been dismissed, we recharged it 734 00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:06.280 as a money launder in case. New evidence, new theory, 735 00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:09.960 new judge, And that's ultimately how we were successful. 736 00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:11.400 And what was the. 737 00:40:11.679 --> 00:40:15.320 Result of this success in terms of backpage, in terms 738 00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:17.960 of prosecution of those involved. 739 00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:20.679 So I think you alluded to this. We ended up 740 00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:24.280 based on a number of factors and things going on 741 00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:27.760 now with the congressional report. But the US Attorney's Office 742 00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.840 also got involved in the case. They had been investigating 743 00:40:30.880 --> 00:40:34.320 as well, and in a joint operation in twenty eighteen, 744 00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:38.360 the federal government, the FBI, the US Attorney in a 745 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:41.719 joint operation with the Texas AG and our office, the 746 00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:46.000 California Attorney General's Office did a joint takedown of the website. 747 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:48.440 So the website was actually seized. There's a message on 748 00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:51.039 there still that says that this website has been seized, 749 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:53.440 and that was just a huge moment. It meant that 750 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:56.159 no one else would be able to be sold on 751 00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:57.719 that despicable website. 752 00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:01.519 You also write about President and Trump signing a law 753 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:05.480 creating an exemption to the CDA for sex trafficking. 754 00:41:05.679 --> 00:41:07.719 That's right. While all of this was going on and 755 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.800 I was slogging it out in court over the Communications 756 00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:15.079 Decency Act in Washington, d C. A group of dedicated 757 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:19.119 senators and congress people and their teams were sorting through 758 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.719 ways to fix the Communications Decency Act to clarify that 759 00:41:22.880 --> 00:41:27.000 it doesn't shield those that are knowingly facilitating sex trafficking. 760 00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:29.719 That was known as the fastest sess the amendment, and 761 00:41:29.800 --> 00:41:32.880 it was signed in twenty eighteen, during the same couple 762 00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:36.000 of weeks that the website was shut down and the 763 00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:40.920 owner or the CEO, Carl Fair Backpage, led guilty to 764 00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:41.840 multiple charges. 765 00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.039 You talk about the media circus along the way here. 766 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.079 What was the media's reaction. You talk about a change 767 00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:52.480 in sort of their narrative and also just the public response. 768 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:54.800 It was a tough case. I mean, I felt like 769 00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:58.000 it wasn't like the topic wasn't well understood. The point 770 00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.920 of our charges weren't well understood when they were first filed. 771 00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:02.840 But I think there was a real changing of the 772 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.760 guard on. That part of the reason for the case 773 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.000 and the book, and it's definitely a goal of the 774 00:42:08.039 --> 00:42:10.480 movement as well, is to raise awareness and make sure 775 00:42:10.519 --> 00:42:14.280 people understand what human trafficking really looks like, that the 776 00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:17.199 people and the ads are real people, that many of 777 00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:19.159 them don't want to be there, and that many of 778 00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:20.280 them were children. 779 00:42:20.760 --> 00:42:24.559 You talk about a couple of those children, Leslie and 780 00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:28.280 another young girl, just as an example, a real example. 781 00:42:29.039 --> 00:42:31.599 Some of this stuff is clinical and we talk about 782 00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:35.880 the statutes, but the real people involved and some of 783 00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:39.199 these are really very tragic cases. So could you tell 784 00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:41.760 us about Leslie and the other young girl. 785 00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:44.679 I mean, the people involved are really the heart of 786 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:47.639 the heart of the work. I mean it started with 787 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.039 the people that were able to escape from the garment industry, 788 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:54.480 and you know it's still going on with people who 789 00:42:54.519 --> 00:43:00.639 are being commercially sexually exploited today. So Leslie was one 790 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:03.559 of the victims that we met with along the way. 791 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:08.639 She and her little sister were trafficked as children, as teenagers, 792 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:11.599 and they had an abusive pimp, but wasn't the kind 793 00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.920 of thing where they were forced with violence. They were 794 00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.920 really coerced because they didn't have anywhere else to go, 795 00:43:18.280 --> 00:43:21.440 and they were afraid, and they had a number of 796 00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:26.639 vulnerability factors, such as having to run away from abusive homes, 797 00:43:27.119 --> 00:43:31.400 not having a real positive relationship with family, and just 798 00:43:31.480 --> 00:43:35.800 all these factors made them really vulnerable to a manipulative trafficker. 799 00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:38.840 We still see this kind of dynamics out there every day, 800 00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:43.320 and it's just this lopsided relationship where a person is 801 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:47.800 coerced and forced and sometimes with physical force, but sometimes 802 00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.079 just psychological manipulation, and then they end up selling their 803 00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:54.039 body for somebody else's benefit. 804 00:43:54.519 --> 00:43:58.159 You talk about the result, the actual tangible results of 805 00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:03.400 Backpage being taken down on prostitution and demand, tell us 806 00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:03.719 about that. 807 00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:06.280 That's right. There were some studies done right after the 808 00:44:06.360 --> 00:44:08.920 site was shut down, and it showed that there was 809 00:44:09.000 --> 00:44:12.039 a real plunge in sex trafficking at that point and 810 00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:14.559 in demand. I mean, I have to say that, you know, 811 00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:18.039 after a two year pandemic and everything that's been going 812 00:44:18.079 --> 00:44:21.880 on online, I can't say that shutting down one website, 813 00:44:21.960 --> 00:44:24.599 you know, really ended sex trafficking. But I know that 814 00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:26.840 it was a step in the right direction. I know 815 00:44:27.000 --> 00:44:29.920 that it sent a major message and it certainly helped 816 00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:31.960 the people who were trafficked on that site. 817 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:35.000 Do you think it would make a serious deterrent for 818 00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:39.679 people that to form organizations and companies like Backpage? 819 00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:40.519 I certainly hope. 820 00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:44.400 So what else did you find as the aftermath of 821 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:48.159 all of this. We talk about Brian Epstein, and people 822 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.800 know that he was previously not being wasn't able to 823 00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:55.079 be successfully prosecuted or indicted, and then there was So 824 00:44:55.159 --> 00:44:58.480 this me too movement is a seismic shift in attitude? 825 00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.880 Is this evolution? Are you happy with what has happened 826 00:45:01.960 --> 00:45:04.039 from the results of your work and the results of 827 00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:07.360 everything that's happened federally and these charges and this story. 828 00:45:07.559 --> 00:45:10.000 Yes, I am really proud of this work. I think 829 00:45:10.039 --> 00:45:12.760 we're definitely moving in the right direction, you know, not 830 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:15.000 because of me and my case, but because of the 831 00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:17.920 courage of so many people that have come forward and 832 00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:21.079 shared their stories and spoken out and spoken up for 833 00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.559 dignity for all of us. I know that we still 834 00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:25.960 have a long way to go, but just looking back 835 00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:28.679 on the human trafficking movement and all that's been accomplished 836 00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:31.000 in the last twenty years, I think it's a really 837 00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:32.000 incredible movement. 838 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.719 You have a photo of the three culprits in a 839 00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.639 cage in court during the trial, and you write about 840 00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:44.079 actually getting to see this Carl Fair for the first time. 841 00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:45.000 What was that like? 842 00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:47.800 Yeah, I remember when I first saw him in court. 843 00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:52.239 It was in Houston, Texas. I hadn't slept in a 844 00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:55.400 couple of days because you know, we've been traveling, and 845 00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.639 then we had been searching his office and then you know, 846 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:01.599 right before his court appearance, I learned that he was 847 00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:03.280 trying to get out of custody and I needed to 848 00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:05.880 go to court in order to convince the judge to 849 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:09.119 extra write him to California. So I was running on 850 00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:12.440 sheer adrenaline and I came to court and that's when 851 00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:14.360 I saw him for the first time. And there he 852 00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:16.800 was lined up in an orange jumpsuit, you know, in 853 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:19.599 a row full of people who were charged with serious 854 00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.800 crimes just like him. And it was just a moment 855 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:26.440 that really struck me, that this moment where everything kind 856 00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:28.480 of caught up and no matter who he was and 857 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:30.880 how much money he had and what he had been doing, 858 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:32.800 he wasn't going to get away with it. And you know, 859 00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:36.800 I'd imagine that's how people felt last week when Maxwell 860 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:42.719 got convicted. Of facilitating sex trafficking. Absolutely, she was Epstein's accomplice, 861 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:43.360 of course. 862 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:45.920 And all along the way in this book, you do 863 00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:51.239 take and give credit to the advocates, the more than 864 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:55.320 courageous victims that helped and gave valuable information, and so 865 00:46:55.519 --> 00:46:59.880 you share that information, those victories. Some of the first 866 00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:03.519 people you call to tell of the victories and these challenges. 867 00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:08.679 It's very interesting everybody's contribution to this fight to taking 868 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:09.639 down back Page. 869 00:47:09.719 --> 00:47:13.559 That's right. It was truly a team effort. I worked 870 00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:17.000 with really great agents. My co counsel on the case, 871 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:19.880 Randy Mailman, is an incredible lawyer, and I was so 872 00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:22.559 lucky to be paired with her. So it definitely was 873 00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:24.800 a team effort and has been a team effort. I'm 874 00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:27.480 going to share too, a message I just got today 875 00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:30.119 from someone I've never met before, but she must have 876 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.840 gotten she must have seen information about the book coming out, 877 00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:35.719 and she wrote, you saved my life. I'm twenty four now, 878 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:39.320 but I was very young, impressionable, and a lost teenager 879 00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:41.480 being advertised on the back page, and you are the 880 00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:43.760 reason my life had a switch after the site got 881 00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:46.039 shut down. I don't know why you randomly showed up 882 00:47:46.039 --> 00:47:48.199 on my Twitter page. But the nightmare of back Page 883 00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:50.559 is over, and I thank you. It's still left its 884 00:47:50.599 --> 00:47:52.920 scars and issues in my life, but I finally don't 885 00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:54.800 have to do that kind of stuff anymore. I think 886 00:47:54.840 --> 00:47:57.360 that really stums up what a lot of survivors felt, 887 00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:59.920 that sense of relief when the site was shut down. 888 00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:02.800 It enabled people to move on with their lives and 889 00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:06.239 to feel seen and instead of a website that just 890 00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:09.639 continued to normalize sexual abuse, the fact that that was 891 00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:11.800 shut down, that the government said that was wrong and 892 00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:13.559 we're not going to tolerate that. We're going all the 893 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:16.199 other way, was a really meaningful step in the right direction. 894 00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:19.800 Absolutely. I want to thank you so much Maggie Crell 895 00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:22.719 for coming on and talking about your incredible book taking 896 00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:26.400 down back Page, fighting the world's largest sex trafficker. For 897 00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:29.440 those people that might want to check out your website, 898 00:48:29.599 --> 00:48:31.280 can you tell us about that and they can find 899 00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:32.760 out more information about this book. 900 00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:36.000 Sure. The book is available on bookshop dot com or 901 00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:39.119 Amazon or your local bookstore pretty much anywhere the books 902 00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:41.880 are sold, and it's coming out January eleventh. My website 903 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:46.119 is Maggie m agg Y Crell kr Ell All one 904 00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:49.840 word dot com, so www dot Maggie Crell dot com, 905 00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:52.079 and there's some information about me and the book and 906 00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:53.480 some of the reviews we've been getting. 907 00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:56.719 Thank you so much taking down backpage fighting the world's 908 00:48:56.800 --> 00:49:00.119 largest sex trafficker. Maggie Crell, thank you so much, have 909 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:01.519 a great evening, good night you too. 910 00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:02.000 Thank you.