WEBVTT 1 00:00:07.639 --> 00:00:11.039 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 2 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.199 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 3 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:21.519 written about them. Gaesy Bundy Dahmer The Nightstalker VTK Every 4 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:25.239 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:29.559 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 6 00:00:29.559 --> 00:00:33.359 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 7 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:45.320 Good Evening. Acclaim journalist, podcaster, and true crime historian Kate 8 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:49.359 Winkler Dawson tells the true story of the scandalous murder 9 00:00:49.399 --> 00:00:54.039 investigation that became the inspiration for both Nathaniel Hawthorne's The 10 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:58.159 Scarlet Letter and the first true crime book published in America. 11 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:02.479 On a cold winter day in eighteen thirty two, Sarah 12 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:05.640 Maria Cornell was found dead in a quiet farmyard in 13 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:09.680 a small New England town. When her troubled passed and 14 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:14.640 a secret correspondence with charismatic Methodist minister Reverend Ephraim Avery 15 00:01:14.760 --> 00:01:20.599 was uncovered, more questions emerged, was Sarah's death a suicide 16 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:26.079 or something much darker? Determined to uncover the real story, 17 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:32.000 Victorian writer Catherine Read Arnold Williams threw herself into the investigation. 18 00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:35.920 As the trial was unfolding and wrote what many claimed 19 00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:39.719 to be the first American true crime narrative, Fall River. 20 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:45.200 The murder divided the country and inspired Nathaniel Hawthorne's The 21 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:49.760 Scarlet Letter. But the Reverend was not convicted, and questions 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.079 linger to this day about what really led to Sarah 23 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:59.560 Cornell's death until now. In The Sinner's All Bow, acclaimed 24 00:01:59.560 --> 00:02:04.079 true time historian Kate Winkler, Dawson travels back in time 25 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:08.719 to nineteenth century small town America, emboldened to finish the 26 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:15.280 work William started nearly two centuries before, using modern investigative 27 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:21.639 advancements including forensic n analysis and criminal profiling, which was 28 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.759 invented fifty five years later with Jack the Ripper, Dawson 29 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:29.599 fills in the gaps of William's research to find the 30 00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:34.400 truth and bring justice to an unsettling mystery that speaks 31 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.360 to our past as well as our present, anchored by 32 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:43.360 three women who subverted the script they were given. The 33 00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.039 book that we're featuring this evening is The Sinner's All Bow. 34 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:52.400 Two authors, One Murder and the Real Hester Prynne, with 35 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:59.560 my special guest, crime historian, journalist, podcaster, and author Kate 36 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:04.000 Winn Claire Dawson. Welcome, back to the program, and thank 37 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:08.479 you very much for this interview. Kate Winkler Dawson, thanks 38 00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:12.240 for having me, Thank you so much, and congratulations on 39 00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:14.400 the Sinners. 40 00:03:14.080 --> 00:03:18.479 All Bow, Thank you. I love all my books, but 41 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.599 this is probably my favorite. Really is. 42 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.759 Now very very interestingly the situation that you are in 43 00:03:26.759 --> 00:03:30.080 in terms of having a co author for this book. 44 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:35.479 So tell us about this unique situation and circumstances surrounding 45 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.719 that decision to make her your co author. Tell us 46 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:41.520 about Katherine Reid Arnold Williams. 47 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:46.800 Well, Catherine is brilliant, absolutely brilliant. I think a poet 48 00:03:47.560 --> 00:03:52.439 who was a single mom and was raising her daughter 49 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:55.639 on her own and made a massive amount of money 50 00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:58.520 from being a very well known poet, and then when 51 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.280 she heard about the story, she decided that she wanted 52 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:04.280 to write a book. And so I used her book 53 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:07.520 really as a source at first, and then I thought 54 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:10.719 she had so much information. I really want to make 55 00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.759 her a co author. And then I really felt like 56 00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:16.639 I needed to go back and kind of examine some 57 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.040 things because I've never worked with a co author before, 58 00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:24.680 and I wanted to double check her reporting, which was accurate, 59 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:29.399 but her motivation was something that I questioned, And so, 60 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.199 you know, as I was working with her material and 61 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:35.319 learning more about her as a person, I started thinking 62 00:04:35.319 --> 00:04:39.360 about journalism and ethics and why we're motivated to write, 63 00:04:39.959 --> 00:04:44.279 and how powerful storytelling is and how you can, you know, 64 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.879 you can really frame a narrative from whatever point of 65 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.639 view you want ruin somebody's life, you know, And so 66 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:54.680 I really was fascinated by it. I think the most 67 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:58.120 interesting thing about Catherine Arnold Williams is that she died 68 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:00.920 about one hundred and fifty years ago. So I'm working 69 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:05.319 with a co author who has a long since past, 70 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:07.000 and I have a lot of access She didn't, and 71 00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:09.000 she had a lot of access I didn't. 72 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.399 You talked about that motivation for her writing this book, 73 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:17.279 and so you also go into her history and her 74 00:05:17.319 --> 00:05:21.720 background that would shape her to have this certain motivation 75 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:25.279 for writing this book. So tell us some of the 76 00:05:25.319 --> 00:05:28.680 things about her life that seem to have shaped her 77 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:31.319 and her motivation and her perspective. 78 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:36.720 So Catherine was very religious. She jokes that she was 79 00:05:36.839 --> 00:05:40.079 raised sort of as a nun. Her mother died when 80 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:41.959 she was very young. Her father was out to see 81 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:44.879 all the time. He was like a sea captain, and 82 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.639 so she was raised by some aunts who I can 83 00:05:47.759 --> 00:05:50.199 only describe as one of the phrases I hate the most, 84 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:54.360 which are Spinster's aunts, who were very religious in an 85 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:58.240 instilled I think a set of ethics in her that 86 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.319 and morals and love of the Bible that carried her through. 87 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:06.120 What it also ended up doing is creating a lot 88 00:06:06.199 --> 00:06:11.000 of acrimony for her between Catherine and any religion that 89 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:16.040 was not you know, mainstream Protestant Episcopalian. I mean, she 90 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:20.279 really was distrustful of the Baptists and some of the 91 00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:23.600 religions that were coming up, but she particularly had a 92 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:26.720 disdain for the Methodists, which I always say, hold on 93 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:28.720 to your hats, but the Methodists were wild in the 94 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.519 eighteen hundreds. I mean they were not the grape jews 95 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:36.199 drinking Methodists of today, and so she really looked at 96 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:40.360 the Methodists and their tent revivals and their handsome ministers 97 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:44.399 with a lot of disrespect and sort of like resentment 98 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:49.279 in a way. So that background of rooted in writing 99 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:53.560 and religion, and sort of the reverence for the traditional 100 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:59.199 minister who was very solemn and formally educated. I think 101 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.920 all of those things really came into play with this book. 102 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:05.800 Because the book is centered on a young woman who 103 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:09.319 met a minister at a Methodist church and ended up dead, 104 00:07:09.680 --> 00:07:12.160 and that's the basic part of the story and what 105 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:15.399 happens to her. And I think that Catherine went into 106 00:07:16.120 --> 00:07:20.879 investigating the death of Sarah Maria Cornell already very clear 107 00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:22.959 that she was murdered, and I wasn't so sure. 108 00:07:24.759 --> 00:07:26.720 Let's go back a little bit. You talked, you just 109 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.319 touched on the Methodist and Methodism, but you talk about 110 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:36.120 Congregationalists and versus the Methodist which was considered a new 111 00:07:36.519 --> 00:07:40.480 Protestant movement and mistrusted by people like Catherine and many 112 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.920 other people. So tell us a little bit more about 113 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:48.959 what the congregational Congregationalists, pardon me, what their philosophy was, 114 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:53.199 and what their criticism was of the Methodist church. 115 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:56.439 Boy, I mean, you just couldn't get any more different. 116 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.639 I think. So the Congregationalists that part of, like I said, 117 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.720 the main stream Protestant church are the factory owners, the 118 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:08.319 business owners. This is sort of like not puritan necessarily, 119 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:10.800 but this is this is very much along those lines 120 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.639 where you're very quiet, you're very solemn in church, you 121 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.879 sit in pews, you have I mean, I would not 122 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:23.959 say boring, but probably pretty boring. Ministers who are ministering 123 00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:27.360 to people, you know, in a very formal setting. It 124 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.839 is not at all exciting. It is certainly not evangelical 125 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:36.960 and passionate. It is reverence towards the Bible traditions community 126 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:41.480 protecting women if whatever you agree with that definition. Their 127 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:44.559 definition of protecting women was, you know, making sure that they, 128 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:48.039 you know, stayed away from men essentially or at least, 129 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:51.320 you know, the kind of men that their families didn't 130 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:54.360 approve of. And then you have the Methodists who had 131 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.039 only been in America for fifty years. John Wesley had 132 00:08:57.080 --> 00:09:00.120 come fifty years earlier. And these are the like the 133 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.120 circuit riders if you're familiar with those at all. These 134 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:05.879 are the people who, along with the Baptists and some 135 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:10.279 other religions, would like go to the western frontier and 136 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.080 minister to people there and you know, really try to 137 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.559 convert draw people on. You have these tent revivals that 138 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:19.080 are wild, lots of alcohol. I mean, I don't think 139 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:20.840 they were all like that. I don't think that was 140 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:25.200 John Wesley's vision, but they were wild. And you have 141 00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:27.799 these young ministers like the man at the center of 142 00:09:27.799 --> 00:09:30.399 our story. At for Avery, you have these young, good 143 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:34.759 looking ministers who have not been formally taught how to 144 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:40.039 preach the word. There are like women flailing around, making 145 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:47.240 moaning noises, speaking in tongues. The ministers are passionate and attractive, 146 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:50.519 and you know they actually there was a phrase I read. 147 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.919 One academic wrote, there was a phrase literally called tent babies, 148 00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:57.600 babies who were born because of these tent revivals. And 149 00:09:57.679 --> 00:09:59.480 so this is very different, like I said, than the 150 00:09:59.480 --> 00:10:03.879 Methodists we are familiar with now. So when Catherine went 151 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.759 to one of these tent revivals years earlier, she thought 152 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:11.039 the serenic, the setting was very serene and beautiful. She 153 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.759 was optimistic. And then when she saw all of this, 154 00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:18.159 which she felt like women who were very clearly being 155 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:21.120 not attacked, but just sort of like there were vulnerable 156 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:25.440 women who clearly couldn't protect themselves and bad things were happening, 157 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:29.279 she was incredibly critical. So when this case comes up 158 00:10:29.360 --> 00:10:33.799 years later, after she had experienced this lascivious debauchery at 159 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:36.480 a tent revival from Methodists, when this case comes up 160 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:39.240 where you have a woman who's a victim, potentially a 161 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:42.720 victim of a Methodist minister it just flipped every switch 162 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.000 for her. I mean, it's like when you talk about triggers, 163 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:47.240 that's a trigger for Katherine Williams. 164 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:52.519 What was it about Catherine Williams's life that was controversial 165 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:58.399 at that time and talk about she identified with Sarah 166 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:03.000 in terms of the sense of independence that women were 167 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:08.240 now yearning for and now had gained, and that's via 168 00:11:08.519 --> 00:11:11.399 the work that was available at factories. Tell us more 169 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:12.159 about this. 170 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:15.879 I'm a little surprised that Catherine was so supportive of 171 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:19.480 women working in factories. It was dangerous. These are young 172 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:23.080 women who were they could have been domestic workers, you 173 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:25.080 know in big cities like New York at the time, 174 00:11:25.399 --> 00:11:29.320 or most of them came from more rural areas and 175 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:32.120 they were given the opportunity to earn money, not much, 176 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:36.240 but earn money and independence by working at these factories 177 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:40.120 that were springing up in eighteen thirties. Jacksonian America. So 178 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:44.879 you have places like Fall River, Massachusetts of Lizzie Borden fame, 179 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:47.799 who you know, kind of at the beginning, they're the 180 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:50.679 nexus of where a lot of these factories came from. 181 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:53.879 There on the water on Biscayne Bay. I mean, there's 182 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:56.720 just various you know city, Well, it's hold on, let 183 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:59.080 me go back. It's you know, some of these factories 184 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:02.159 are like they're on Mount Hope Bay, you know, they're 185 00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:05.360 all up and down the East Coast, and so these 186 00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:09.360 women are given the opportunities to work i mean twelve 187 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:13.240 to fourteen hour days or more. It's dangerous, they can 188 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.759 get hurt. There's a large machinery. They're weaving and looming 189 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:21.600 and literally working in factories that have really hard equipment 190 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:24.200 to deal with. And then they go home to a 191 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.639 boarding house, usually headed up by a matron who takes 192 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.840 them to church and there's a bell that rings for dinner. 193 00:12:30.919 --> 00:12:34.279 It's a very regulated life. So it's interesting to say 194 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:38.720 independence because a lot of these women were independent, but 195 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:41.639 you know, still not they were still told what to do. 196 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:45.320 There was still a patriarchal society and play in all 197 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:50.240 of these towns. But Sarah Maria Cornell, who hailed from 198 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:53.720 the very famous Cornell family as in Cornell University. You know, 199 00:12:53.799 --> 00:12:57.360 Sarah Maria Cornell came from the or side of that 200 00:12:57.440 --> 00:13:01.600 family and she wanted more independence and she got it. 201 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:04.799 She was very talented. She moved from factory to factory, 202 00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:08.399 but it definitely made a lot of people nervous in 203 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:11.759 the society for women to be given that much free reign. 204 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:15.519 Catherine Williams, as you had mentioned, was a little controversial. 205 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.279 You would not think this was the case. But she 206 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.320 had been married for one or two years to a 207 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:26.200 man name Horatio Williams, whose ancestor was Roger Williams, who 208 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:29.080 was a very famous, you know, person who came and 209 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:33.120 founded Rhode Island. I believe they got married, and she 210 00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:35.679 was vague in her memoirs that I read, in the 211 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.519 letters that I read about what was wrong, But it 212 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:41.320 sounded like he got Horatio got involved with some bad 213 00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:44.200 people and made some bad decisions. He had promised her 214 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:46.080 that they would move west, and then he kind of 215 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.240 isolated her in upstate New York. So she divorced him. 216 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.159 So this would have been something like eighteen late eighteen twenties. 217 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:57.919 They had a little girl named Amy, and boy to 218 00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:00.279 get a divorce, you know, as I say in my book, 219 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.200 to get a divorce in the early eighteen hundreds, he 220 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.440 must have been bad. He must have been a bad 221 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:10.360 husband something, because that was like an act of God 222 00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:13.679 to get a divorce instigated by a woman. And so, 223 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:18.679 you know, she was raising Amy without really any resources, 224 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:22.759 her aunts who raised her. When one died, she left 225 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:24.960 her some money, but I mean that money was going 226 00:14:25.039 --> 00:14:26.279 to run out. I think she put it all in 227 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:30.600 a house in Providence, Rhode Island. And so she was 228 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:35.399 raising very successfully this little girl on her own by herself, 229 00:14:36.120 --> 00:14:39.039 simply through writing books of poetry. And she wrote a 230 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:41.679 couple of biographies that were successful. So she is a 231 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:43.879 successful writer when she takes on this story. 232 00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.919 Now you talk about the agenda for Catherine to write 233 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.960 this book, and again, this is not something that she 234 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.360 had in tended to do with her writing career at all, 235 00:14:56.600 --> 00:14:59.759 but she found herself with this story. Tell us about 236 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:02.360 her agenda for this book, and then tell us about 237 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:05.039 your agenda. 238 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.480 Her agenda is mysterious. So she when she heard about 239 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:15.440 this case, she was given full access to everything you 240 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:17.879 could think of. I mean they she was introduced to 241 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:23.320 Sarah Maria Cornell's family, who gave her letters between Sarah 242 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.039 and the would be killer, between Sarah and the family. 243 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:29.559 She was given access that nobody else had been given 244 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:31.960 access to. So when I really started reading about this stuff, 245 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:34.320 I thought, why did this happen? I mean, who was 246 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:37.120 giving her all this access. She went in towards some 247 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.000 of the factories, she met with a prosecutor. She I mean, 248 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:44.360 she really had this incredible access. And so, you know, 249 00:15:44.639 --> 00:15:46.720 the more that we get into the book, the more 250 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.120 I think. I was thinking to myself, Okay, she is 251 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.159 a passionate advocate for women. And I spend the majority 252 00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:55.879 of my time, as I think you do, too, Dan, 253 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:59.039 talking about men killing women. I mean, that is just 254 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:03.399 the reality time, right, And so I think thinking about that, 255 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.080 I was thinking, Okay, well, is she an advocate, an 256 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:10.080 advocate for women, for female victims. Is she trying to 257 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.879 get them give them a voice? And I think that's true. 258 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:17.759 I also think that there were people motivated to hire 259 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:21.360 her to write a book that was just going to 260 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:25.200 gut the Methodist Church and everything the Methodist Church stood for. 261 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.399 So as I had said, I really this book in 262 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:32.000 particular really made me think about journalism and the biases 263 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:35.080 that come with it. I mean, I went to a 264 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:38.440 graduate school where I was told you have to stay 265 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:41.960 I'm biased, no matter what I mean. That is just it. 266 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:44.840 You are bipartisan, That is it. That is the way 267 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:47.799 journalism is. I agree with that to a certain extent, 268 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:50.080 but we're human beings. We all have things you know 269 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:52.720 about us that that are going to influence us, and 270 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.519 I think Catherine was heavily influenced. I think her reporting 271 00:16:57.279 --> 00:16:59.679 was excellent. But there's two parts to writing a book 272 00:16:59.720 --> 00:17:03.200 like this. There's the reporting research part, and there's the Okay, 273 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:06.079 now you've got there's the you have all of this information, 274 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:09.960 how do I craft a narrative? And I think that 275 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.119 the way that she crafted a narrative is what I 276 00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:17.279 was struggling with the most, because her narrative from the 277 00:17:17.319 --> 00:17:23.720 beginning framed the Methodist Church as essentially evil and framed 278 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:28.960 the suspect as guilty before he even went on trial, 279 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:31.000 so that. 280 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:33.559 Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. 281 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:39.799 Now you talk about this narrative that she's crafting, it 282 00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:43.160 seems that she's trying to counter what she sees as 283 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:49.440 an inherent and prejudice already beset Sarah Cornell. 284 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.480 Yeah. You know, one of the things about Sarah that 285 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:59.160 Catherine I think tried to really kind of mold is 286 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:06.359 her public image, because Sarah really was dismantled during these trials. 287 00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:11.839 I mean, her character was questioned, and Sarah did some stuff, 288 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.000 I mean simple theft. There were some things that did happen. 289 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.319 They were irrefutable. From my point of view, it's a 290 00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:21.920 young woman who did something stupid. I don't think it's 291 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:24.119 you know, something ingrained in her to be a criminal. 292 00:18:24.519 --> 00:18:27.839 It ended up ruining her reputation. I mean, stealing address, 293 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:31.720 you know, ten years earlier, follows you in this time period, 294 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:35.279 from town to town, she gets a reputation. People see 295 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:37.079 her with a man, they say, well, she's a thief. 296 00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.160 She's sleeping with him too. I mean, a bad person 297 00:18:40.279 --> 00:18:43.400 is a bad person, and that's it. And so I 298 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.799 think that's the kind of thing that continues on forever 299 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:53.319 for her. And when you read Catherine's account of Sarah's life, 300 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:59.839 it truly is painted like everything that happened to her 301 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:04.039 was preventable, that she did nothing wrong, that she was 302 00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:08.839 already cursed from the beginning because her father abandoned the family, 303 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:10.880 and that was the truth. He did abandon the family 304 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:14.559 and caused so much strife, and so you know, you 305 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:21.160 see these echoes her Catherine made a bad decision marrying 306 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:25.440 Horatio Williams, very bad decision, even though she got a 307 00:19:25.519 --> 00:19:29.559 daughter out of it. Sarah Maria Cornell. Her mother made 308 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:32.599 a bad decision by marrying Sarah's father. It ruined that 309 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.799 part of the family. And then you have Sarah making 310 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:40.799 another bad decision, maybe trusting somebody too much. These are 311 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:46.880 all involving bad men who are manipulating good women, and 312 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:50.039 that is the theme that she sticks with with the story. 313 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:53.480 I think, you know, I mean, it's it's I think 314 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:57.200 she sees so many parallels between these various lives that 315 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.240 you know, she gets caught in that narrow when she's writing, 316 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:03.880 and it was really up to me to decide what 317 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:04.680 was happening with that. 318 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.599 Let's go back to the basic facts of the case, 319 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:14.160 just so we can understand how she came to be 320 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:18.359 in a position in fall River at the Deurfy Farm 321 00:20:18.839 --> 00:20:22.200 in December eighteen thirty two. 322 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:25.480 Here are the basic facts of the case. Sarah Maria 323 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:31.480 Cornell was staying at a boarding house in near fall River, Massachusetts, 324 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:38.000 and she finds herself a few months pregnant. She is 325 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:42.119 demanding money from the father of the baby. We don't 326 00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.119 know who the father is. They exchange letters, thank goodness, 327 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.480 so we have that proof, and he never signs his name. 328 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:53.000 She never addresses him by name. So there is an 329 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.920 exchange of letters going back and forth where she essentially says, 330 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.960 am I need money. I'm keeping this baby. I'm going 331 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:02.079 to put the baby in it like a daycare while 332 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:03.839 I work in the factory. I will make it work. 333 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:08.480 But this is your responsibility. The letter writer says, meet 334 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:10.960 me at the place that you and I have discussed, 335 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.039 which turns out to be a farm in what was 336 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.599 then Timperton, Rhode Island, what is now Fall River, Massachusetts. 337 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:21.759 It's now a beautiful park in Fall River called Kennedy Park, 338 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:25.200 and it's just actually a few blocks down from the 339 00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:28.759 Lizzie Borden house. So he says, meet me the night 340 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:34.000 of December nineteenth. It's very very cold, and again, you know, 341 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:36.599 I had to hire a handwriting analyst to figure out 342 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:39.400 who wrote these letters, to prove or disprove who wrote 343 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.160 these letters to her. But that's what draws her to 344 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.960 the farm. That night. It is very very cold, and 345 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:49.880 it's around eight o'clock. People who live near the farm 346 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:54.720 here screams, and some were saying moans, some were saying screams. 347 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:57.319 They're kind of going off. A couple of people are 348 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:01.000 going off of their clocks on the wall for the time, 349 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.240 and then a couple of people are going off the 350 00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:05.640 gongs of the dinner bell from one of the factories, 351 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:09.920 summoning the girls home. So it's a little confusing because 352 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.880 the time is off for some of these things. The border, 353 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.799 the woman who runs Sarah's boarding house, reports that she 354 00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:21.559 never came back. She had told the woman and her daughter, 355 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:25.359 I'm leaving. I'm not going to be out for very long. 356 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:28.559 I'm She was very excited because she thought she was 357 00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.759 going to get some money. So the next day, John 358 00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:35.200 Durfy with the Durfy name is incredibly well known in 359 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:40.960 Fall River, Massachusetts. Still and John Durfy is driving a 360 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:45.400 team of horses back home and on a cart and 361 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:48.279 he sees something in the distance on his property and 362 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.960 he gets out and he walks over to a bunch 363 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.519 of hay bales, huge hay bales, and there is a 364 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.319 what's called a haystack pole which you would put a 365 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.519 bail on hook it so that because this is when time, 366 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:04.160 you know, it would not the snow and the rain 367 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.880 wouldn't rot the hay on the bottom. So there is 368 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.359 a woman, you know, in a long cloak and a bonnet, 369 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.319 and she is hanging by her neck from a haystack pole, 370 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:19.039 and clearly she is dead. It is a freezing cold 371 00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:23.039 night below freezing and he calls for help. And that's 372 00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.559 how we end up with this case. And the question 373 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.519 is was she murdered or was this an act of 374 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.400 self harm? Did she take her own life? If she 375 00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:38.519 were murdered, who did it? What happened? And I think 376 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:42.200 it is confusing to a lot of people. One of 377 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:46.079 the things that's so interesting about this case and about 378 00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:51.839 Catherine's reporting, is that various assertions people made. So the 379 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.240 noto made at the top of the haystack that connects 380 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:57.920 the rope to the haystack pole was a square knot 381 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:00.000 typical is the only not I can do, square knot, 382 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.200 And then the one around her neck is a clove 383 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.640 hitch not, which is unique. And so there was sort 384 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:12.640 of a case closed attitude from Catherine and a lot 385 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:15.519 of the people there that there's no way that this 386 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.079 was suicide because she would not be able to have 387 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.480 hanged herself with a clove hitch, because you would have 388 00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:23.880 to pull it from both hands and have a certain 389 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:26.880 amount of strength. I talked to a forensic non expert 390 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.680 who said that's not true. She could have done it 391 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.759 herself absolutely. So you know, it is looking at this 392 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.279 case through a modern lens of what we know now 393 00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:41.079 versus what they thought they knew. Then. I learned a 394 00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:44.079 whole lot about eighteen hundreds forensics, which was interesting. I 395 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:45.839 thought I knew it all, but I really didn't until 396 00:24:46.039 --> 00:24:47.079 I got into this case. 397 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:53.359 What are some of the clues that these investigators find 398 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:57.079 at that time? But more importantly, at the very beginning, 399 00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:00.160 the men that were assembled at the Derfy farm, they 400 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.519 seem to have a conclusion immediately that it's a suicide, 401 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:04.000