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<v Speaker 1>Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of the Ruby

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<v Speaker 1>Rogues podcast, the Sweet Conod Panel. We have a Yushnawatia Hello, Hello,

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<v Speaker 1>also a Valentino stole in.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Charles Maxwood from top End Devs and this week

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<v Speaker 1>we have a special guest. We have Robbie Russell from

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<v Speaker 1>Planet Are Gone. Robbie, do you want to I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm like, where do we even start? You know, O

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<v Speaker 1>my zshell or what's.

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<v Speaker 3>A amazy show?

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<v Speaker 2>Now? Yeah? Hi nice, thanks for having me on today.

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<v Speaker 2>Good morning, Good afternoon everybody. So, yeah, I run a

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<v Speaker 2>company called Planet Argon. We're a soccer consultancy. We've been

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<v Speaker 2>around for twenty almost twenty three years now, part of

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<v Speaker 2>the Rail's ecosystem for just over twenty years now, and

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<v Speaker 2>we help companies with existing rails applications make them better

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<v Speaker 2>and more maintainable.

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<v Speaker 3>We do a lot of consulting work in that space.

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<v Speaker 2>And I also so I'm known for having created O

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<v Speaker 2>my zshell Once upon a Time, which is an open

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<v Speaker 2>source configuration framework for z shell if that's something you

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<v Speaker 2>like to use on the command line, and an open

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<v Speaker 2>source contributor for about twenty five years. I'm also the

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<v Speaker 2>host of the Maintainable Software podcasts, where I interview people

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<v Speaker 2>about best practices when it comes to taking care of

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<v Speaker 2>older legacy applications across a lot of different frameworks and

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<v Speaker 2>tech stacks. That's not a rail specific but there's a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of Ruby and rails related contact because that's my

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<v Speaker 2>orbit that I exist in, and I also play guitar

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<v Speaker 2>in an instrumental rock band called the Mighty Misula.

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<v Speaker 1>Cool. I didn't know about the rock band. I admired

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<v Speaker 1>you from Afar for a long time for all the

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<v Speaker 1>other stuff. So yeah, it's exciting to have you on.

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<v Speaker 1>We brought you on to talk about I got an

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<v Speaker 1>email from you. I think I'm on an e mailing

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<v Speaker 1>list somewhere, and it basically said the Stimulus JS replaced

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<v Speaker 1>Here we go. Stimulus has dethroned reacts as the most

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<v Speaker 1>popular JS library for rails apps. And so then I

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<v Speaker 1>went and looked at the survey and that that was

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<v Speaker 1>kind of interesting. I want to ask you about all

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<v Speaker 1>of the other things though, so sure, uh yeah, let's

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<v Speaker 1>go ahead. And I just want to get a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of background. I mean, I use on my z

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<v Speaker 1>shell and it's oh my helpful and so I'm curious

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<v Speaker 1>what the story is behind that. And then I'd also

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<v Speaker 1>like to talk a little bit about Planet Argone before

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<v Speaker 1>we get into survey.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, that sounds great.

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<v Speaker 2>So oh my DHL. I first, really, we celebrated fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>years that I since I released it back and I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was August now, it was fifteen years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>so fifteen and a couple extra months now.

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<v Speaker 3>I have been using ZHL for a couple of years.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of peers in the Ruby ecosystem at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>we would all share a little configuration ideas for how

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<v Speaker 2>to use VHL and optimize it and get was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a new thing at the time, so doing things

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<v Speaker 2>like having your giit branch in your prompt was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of a really new cool idea and I think it

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<v Speaker 2>helped us. I think it was this a good timing

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<v Speaker 2>overlap with trying to wrap her head around like local

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<v Speaker 2>branches at the time. So but basically I had compiled

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<v Speaker 2>this crazy z shehell configuration file that half of it

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of understood half of it. I probably didn't

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<v Speaker 2>because I was just copy and pasting and trading things

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<v Speaker 2>with my friends over IRC channels or old websites like pasty,

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<v Speaker 2>which was kind of like a gist before get up existed.

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<v Speaker 2>And I would be parent pargnering with one of my

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<v Speaker 2>coworkers at my company on a thing, and we'd be

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<v Speaker 2>on their computer and I would get frustrated because all

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<v Speaker 2>of my muscle memory wouldn't I remember how to do

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<v Speaker 2>how to fully write out of the commands because a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of shortcuts and aliases and little optimizations that I

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<v Speaker 2>had added to my own configuration file. So I was

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<v Speaker 2>I found myself just feeling frustrated with myself, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be like, hey, why don't you use zshell and

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<v Speaker 2>just copy my configuration file and then and then I'll

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<v Speaker 2>show you how you can be quicker at the command line,

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<v Speaker 2>as I feel like a lot more efficient now. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I would kind of encourage my team to do that,

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<v Speaker 2>and a few people would take take me up on that,

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<v Speaker 2>but several people didn't like one person, particularly named Carlos,

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<v Speaker 2>on my team. He was very resistant to because he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't he wanted to understand what the config file did.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was He's like, well, walk me through it,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, I honestly can't because I don't really

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<v Speaker 2>understand a lot of this gibberish z Sholl sent text

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<v Speaker 2>does and so we kind of, you know, we butted

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<v Speaker 2>heads a little bit, and he wouldn't take me up

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<v Speaker 2>on the idea. So I decided one weekend, I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I'm gonna I'm going to try to

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<v Speaker 2>document my config file. I'm gonna go through and just

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<v Speaker 2>add some comments. I'm going to like look up the

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<v Speaker 2>documentation in the z shell syntax and I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>try to understand this. And then as I started doing that,

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<v Speaker 2>I started like refactoring it basically and moving in and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, this is like a really big file.

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<v Speaker 2>What if I made I should probably use some version controls,

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<v Speaker 2>So I'll put this in and get repository. And I

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<v Speaker 2>started making like separating out this big config file into

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<v Speaker 2>several smaller, messy config files. And then I slapped a

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<v Speaker 2>name on it, and I called it on my seashell

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<v Speaker 2>because it was a playoff of another project that I

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<v Speaker 2>had worked on a.

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<v Speaker 3>Couple of months before, or with a different coworker.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't really put a lot of thought into that either,

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<v Speaker 2>but I created like a read me with an install guide,

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<v Speaker 2>which was basically like a get clone of this repository

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<v Speaker 2>that I created, and then and then you could use

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<v Speaker 2>my knfig file, and so I felt like I just elevated.

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<v Speaker 2>But that was like maybe a handful a few hours

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<v Speaker 2>worth the work of cleaning up that file and turning

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<v Speaker 2>it into this new repository. Threw it up on GitHub,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I dropped that link I don't remember if

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<v Speaker 2>for using campfire or some other chat tool back in

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<v Speaker 2>the back in two thousand and nine, dropped it in

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<v Speaker 2>our team's chat. Everybody installed it on Monday victory I won.

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<v Speaker 2>Everybody now had my canfiic file, so I would go

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<v Speaker 2>to the computer and I would all the same things.

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<v Speaker 2>So that was my goal, was just to have everybody

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<v Speaker 2>in my office kind of have the same ISSU configure,

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<v Speaker 2>so that I could show them how to feel like

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<v Speaker 2>a superhero and the command line, and I wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 2>to remember how to like do everything like write out

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<v Speaker 2>all tho syntax for a lot of the obscure commands

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<v Speaker 2>that we were running. But then, so the thing that

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people know about owens the shells that

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<v Speaker 2>it comes with a lot of themes and tons of

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<v Speaker 2>plug ins, and like none of that was remotely on

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<v Speaker 2>my dea my was it even something I had considered?

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<v Speaker 2>That next day, one of my co workers, Gary said,

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<v Speaker 2>how do I change the colors? I was like, why

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<v Speaker 2>would you want to do that? My color choices are perfect?

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, well, here you can go in

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<v Speaker 2>this file. I moved like I think I had like

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<v Speaker 2>colors or prompt file configuration files. I'm like, you can

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<v Speaker 2>change the colors in here, and here's like the syntax

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<v Speaker 2>for that. So we started doing that. He started making changes,

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<v Speaker 2>and then other team members wanted to add contribute their

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<v Speaker 2>own little shortcuts and little functions and aliases as well,

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<v Speaker 2>and so we were kind of working together on this,

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<v Speaker 2>and Gary couldn't do a get pull and get pushed

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<v Speaker 2>cleanly because he had changed the file, you know, and

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<v Speaker 2>get conflict, and so we're like, so we're like kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like, well, so we had like stash it and

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<v Speaker 2>then pull the changes and then reapply them. And I'm like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>this doesn't feel very sustainable because then another co worker

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<v Speaker 2>is like, I want to change the COLO and so

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, well, what can.

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<v Speaker 3>We do here?

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<v Speaker 2>And I was like, oh, I know, I'll just move

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<v Speaker 2>my prompt file into its own thing and call it

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<v Speaker 2>Robbie Russell.

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<v Speaker 3>We'll call it a theme. These are themes.

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<v Speaker 2>Gary has his, I have mine, Carlos can have his,

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<v Speaker 2>Allison can have hers. And so it created the concept

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<v Speaker 2>of themes, which became like a configuration option. And so

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<v Speaker 2>then I met I mentioned it on my blog and

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<v Speaker 2>Robbie on rails back in the day, and so it's

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<v Speaker 2>mostly within the Ruby ecosystem. And then about a month

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<v Speaker 2>later we started getting contributions. But about and a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of themes started popping in by other people as well,

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<v Speaker 2>so that.

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<v Speaker 3>Was kind of like a fun thing.

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose, like, hey, we have this real repository.

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<v Speaker 3>We can inspire each other.

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<v Speaker 2>And about a month later someone reached out and said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>this is really cool, but I'm a Python developer. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't need all this Ruby stuff loaded up when I

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<v Speaker 2>when I run this, Like I want to use the

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<v Speaker 2>prompt stuff with all the get stuff, but I don't

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<v Speaker 2>need all the Rails and Ruby stuff that you have loaded.

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<v Speaker 3>So I was like, oh, that's interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want all that pie stuff Python stuffloaded when

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<v Speaker 2>I use it, so maybe we'll all these plugins. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I moved all the Rails stuff and Ruby's stuff

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<v Speaker 2>into its own thing, and we had Python stuff come in,

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<v Speaker 2>and then that just opened the floodgates for other people

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<v Speaker 2>be like, oh, I got this thing from my framework,

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<v Speaker 2>or I had this other tool that I'm only using.

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<v Speaker 1>And so.

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<v Speaker 2>This stuff kind of organically evolved as the community started

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<v Speaker 2>using it and pitching ideas, and I was like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>here's a way to kind of organize that. We'll just

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<v Speaker 2>throw these in different directories with different kind of enable

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<v Speaker 2>these things, and that just kind of snowballed into this

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<v Speaker 2>thing that's kind of evolved over the last fifteen plus

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<v Speaker 2>years where we've had several remember the number of I

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<v Speaker 2>think we've had, Remember how many couple we've had more

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<v Speaker 2>than a couple of thousand contributors directly to the core

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<v Speaker 2>project contribute code, and it's one of the most like

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<v Speaker 2>starred projects on GitHub and it's kind of wild. But

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<v Speaker 2>I don't make any money with it. I sell stickers

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<v Speaker 2>and T shirts. That's fun. But it's always been this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like fun, little open source thing that I

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<v Speaker 2>can occasionally spend some time thinking about, but it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>occupy a lot of my brain space. Despite how wildly

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<v Speaker 2>wide ranged in popular it has seemingly been.

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<v Speaker 1>That's awesome. I love it. Yeah. I also want to

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<v Speaker 1>just talk a little bit about Planet Argon. You guys

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<v Speaker 1>have been around for a while. Was this before or

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<v Speaker 1>aftermyzshell and before?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Story with yeah how that got started?

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<v Speaker 2>So I actually started planning Argon I see back in

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and two as a what I would because

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<v Speaker 2>I was had a day job and I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>I want to do we work with I worked at

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<v Speaker 2>a company in some software development and we were uh

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<v Speaker 2>that company was a dot net shop, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>really interested in open source, and nobody at larger companies

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<v Speaker 2>was really hiring open source technology people that often, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I love PHBA. It was really it. Had co

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<v Speaker 2>founded a Linux user group here in Portland, Oregon, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I was already kind of doing a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>fun open source stuff, and so I was like trying

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<v Speaker 2>to trains like, Okay, I do this net how do

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<v Speaker 2>I do this in PHP? And then I started like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe I can get some freelance work on

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<v Speaker 2>the side, And so I decided to incorporate that as

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<v Speaker 2>a plan Argon. Thought I would make it sound like

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<v Speaker 2>I'm bigger than just me, and it was like me

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<v Speaker 2>and then my partner at the time, she was a designer,

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<v Speaker 2>so we would. She would work on web design stuff

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<v Speaker 2>and I did a lot of back end development, so

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<v Speaker 2>we collaborate on stuff. So she had her company, I

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<v Speaker 2>had mine, and so we so I was like, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna call my planet Argon, which was a reference to

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<v Speaker 2>a fictional book or a fictional place in a Tom

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<v Speaker 2>Robbins book called Still Left with Woodpecker, which is where

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<v Speaker 2>redheads came from. So I had nothing to do with anything.

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<v Speaker 2>It wasn't some clever idea of gases or you know,

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<v Speaker 2>the scientific chart there. It was literally just like a

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<v Speaker 2>it's me, I have red hair, plane ragon, goofy little thing.

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<v Speaker 2>So I did that for a couple of years, doing

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<v Speaker 2>like side projects. In two thousand and four, I quit

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<v Speaker 2>my last job to work full time on Planet Argon,

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<v Speaker 2>just as a you know, freelance insultant. And then and

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<v Speaker 2>beginning of two thousand, late two thousand and four, begin

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and five, I got introduced to ruby and

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<v Speaker 2>Ruby on rails and started doing that.

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<v Speaker 3>In two thousand and four, beginning of two thousand and four.

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<v Speaker 2>I started blogging as robbyond Rails and so this was

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<v Speaker 2>five and a half years before Always You Sholl existed.

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<v Speaker 2>I was part of the Rails ecosystem and doing stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>so I think always sholl Will just kind of culminated

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<v Speaker 2>it out of that community. So yeah, it has been

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<v Speaker 2>around for a while. What we work on a lot now.

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<v Speaker 2>So back then, it was a lot of like new

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<v Speaker 2>startups wanting to use Rails because it was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>like this new hot thing for projects. So we learned

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<v Speaker 2>how to basically went from that freelancer space of me

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<v Speaker 2>working on by myself with my designer partner at the time,

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<v Speaker 2>and to all of a sudden, like some really large

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<v Speaker 2>projects started coming our way that would take more than

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<v Speaker 2>me to be able to do it. And so one

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<v Speaker 2>of the first services that we had was offering hosting

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<v Speaker 2>services to rubyond Rails developers because there wasn't a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of affordable hosting options unless you spun up your own

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<v Speaker 2>BPS or something. So I had been offering post rescuels

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<v Speaker 2>hosting for developers and like PHP five development or environments

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<v Speaker 2>for hosting because I had a lot of experience with

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<v Speaker 2>like writing servers and stuff like that. So that was

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<v Speaker 2>part of our services early on, was posting, even going

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<v Speaker 2>back to two thousand. I think we started doing that

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<v Speaker 2>in two thousand and three a site for a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the projects because i've it then host those projects.

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<v Speaker 2>So we were one of the first companies in the

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<v Speaker 2>Ruby on Rails ecosystem to start offering hosting at kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like an affordable price point, and we give people

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<v Speaker 2>like shared hosting environments and made that kind of work.

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<v Speaker 2>And then so that allowed us to broaden our exposure

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<v Speaker 2>in the community early on. And then but a big

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<v Speaker 2>part of what we were trying to do is just

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<v Speaker 2>focus on developing sort of projects and stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 2>And then a couple of years into that, we started

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<v Speaker 2>getting approached by companies that said, hey, we had a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of freelancers build this app for us this last year.

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<v Speaker 2>They're no longer available, they got full time jobs. Some morals,

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<v Speaker 2>can you take over these projects? And one of the

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<v Speaker 2>great things about Ruby and rails was that it was

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<v Speaker 2>there's a consistency between projects. So we found ourselves being

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<v Speaker 2>able to like jump in quickly to existing projects and

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<v Speaker 2>that became our niche over the years that now we

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<v Speaker 2>quite essentially take over projects that are for companies that

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<v Speaker 2>don't necessarily need to have two or more full time

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<v Speaker 2>software engineers on their team in house, and so their

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<v Speaker 2>other option is maybe having like a freelancer or two,

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<v Speaker 2>but then maybe they do that, but the freelancers kind

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<v Speaker 2>of come and go, and they're like, we have to

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<v Speaker 2>kind of restart this process a lot. So we end

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<v Speaker 2>up owning a lot of projects where we're the primary

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<v Speaker 2>development team for like five ten years with some of

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<v Speaker 2>our clients, some of them over ten years. Now we're

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<v Speaker 2>their dev shop, but we're maybe doing like eighty.

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<v Speaker 3>Hours a month on those projects.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's kind of like a but we're maintaining

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<v Speaker 2>those things for the long term because they don't necessarily

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<v Speaker 2>they're not trying to become a company.

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<v Speaker 3>It's like an application that helps fulfill part.

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<v Speaker 2>Of their business, but it isn't the business.

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<v Speaker 3>So like there's a lot of.

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<v Speaker 2>Those types of applications that exist, so we're kind of

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<v Speaker 2>well tuned to come in and own those types of projects.

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<v Speaker 2>But then we also do a lot of consulting and

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<v Speaker 2>coming in with companies that have their own engineering teams

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<v Speaker 2>on helping them unblock themselves when it comes to like

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<v Speaker 2>there's been a lot of turnover in those environments and

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<v Speaker 2>maybe some of the original developers have you know, left,

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<v Speaker 2>and some of the new developers aren't sure how to

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<v Speaker 2>like make choices about, Hey, we're still running on rails four.

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<v Speaker 2>We would love to get to seven, eight, but how

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<v Speaker 2>do we get to five? And how do we kind

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<v Speaker 2>of navigate this and what frameworks and front end things

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<v Speaker 2>should we be exploring now, And so we try to

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<v Speaker 2>help come in and help coach teams on how to

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<v Speaker 2>navigate some of that stuff and cleaning up techno debt

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<v Speaker 2>and deal with overdue upgrades, performance improvements, stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's another part of our business as well.

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<v Speaker 1>Nice okay, well more, Yeah, maintainable podcasts.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so maintainable podcast just recently recorded my tuneth episode

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<v Speaker 2>of that. It's an interview style format visions And one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things I set out to do was I

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<v Speaker 2>felt like there's always been a lot of good quality

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<v Speaker 2>conversations around what's going on new in the software industry.

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<v Speaker 2>New people always like talk about new stuff, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, but a lot of software developers experience is

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<v Speaker 2>showing up to a job where things are already there,

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<v Speaker 2>things are already in motion.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think as.

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<v Speaker 2>A industry we've done ourselves to disservice by branding ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>as being these like creators, makers and like, but reality,

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<v Speaker 2>most of us are actually mending and taking care of

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<v Speaker 2>existing stuff and trying to just make it a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit better today than it was yesterday, leave things better off,

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<v Speaker 2>and like, that's good work to be done. And I've

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<v Speaker 2>just seen a lot of developers over the years struggle

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<v Speaker 2>to kind of like change like reframe that because I

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<v Speaker 2>think we've but anyways, so I thought, I thought it

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<v Speaker 2>would be interesting to have conversations about what it's really

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<v Speaker 2>like to work at project on projects day in and

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<v Speaker 2>day out that have been around for a really long time,

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<v Speaker 2>and how to make incremental improvements because that stuff is

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<v Speaker 2>hard and there's a lot of people dynamics, there's technical

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<v Speaker 2>dynamics at play, and so I wanted to just a

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<v Speaker 2>catalog a lot of conversations that I thought would be

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<v Speaker 2>relevant today but also in ten.

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<v Speaker 3>Years, twenty years from now.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't feel like these are conversations that will date themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm trying to be very intentional about having conversations

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<v Speaker 2>with people about how they navigate, how they've overcome, or

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<v Speaker 2>sharing some of the painful stories about like yeah, we

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<v Speaker 2>tried to do rewrite and that blew up in our phase.

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<v Speaker 3>Because I'm a big.

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<v Speaker 2>Advocate for not rewriting unless it's the very very last

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<v Speaker 2>possible step you can possibly do. So I'm always like this,

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<v Speaker 2>there's got to be a better way to think about

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<v Speaker 2>how your approach to software projects rather than just dreaming

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<v Speaker 2>that one day we'll finally get to rewrite this thing

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<v Speaker 2>and then it's all going to be better. We will

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<v Speaker 2>never have all these problems that we have today.

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<v Speaker 3>Which is complete bullshit.

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<v Speaker 1>So right, cool. Well, I have to say I've listened

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<v Speaker 1>to the Maintainable podcast for a while and you always

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<v Speaker 1>have terrific people on that make me think about how

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<v Speaker 1>I do it.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's great, I have It's it's also just a

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<v Speaker 2>good excuses get to have conversations with people that I

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<v Speaker 2>admire on a regular basis.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, this is that's my favorite part of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Awesome. All right, well I'll quit fan boying and uh,

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<v Speaker 1>well we'll we'll talk about the survey. So yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so do you want to just explain I'm always curious.

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<v Speaker 1>I used to just be like, all right, well, let's

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<v Speaker 1>just get into the meat. What's in the survey, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's important, but I like to get

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<v Speaker 1>into the methodology a little bit. Right, like who who

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<v Speaker 1>did you reach out to, how did you market it,

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<v Speaker 1>what kind of people did you expect to take it,

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<v Speaker 1>and and that kind of thing, so that we can

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<v Speaker 1>get an idea of, Okay, this is the community it

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<v Speaker 1>really reflects.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So just for some

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<v Speaker 2>historical context, the survey, we've been running the survey as

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<v Speaker 2>long as always You Show has been around. So the

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<v Speaker 2>first time we did it was back in two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and nine, so I think we've done it eight times now.

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<v Speaker 2>Pretty much has been every other year, except for I

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<v Speaker 2>think for the first couple of years we did it

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<v Speaker 2>like every year. But the original version of it was

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<v Speaker 2>we wanted to get a lay of the land of

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<v Speaker 2>because we were part of our business was doing hosting.

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<v Speaker 2>Was like, how how is the ecosystem changing in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of how people were thinking about deploying and hosting their

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<v Speaker 2>applications because we were providing those services and the cloud

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<v Speaker 2>services kind of this new thing, and we're like, is

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<v Speaker 2>that where everybody's moving? Should we get out of this

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<v Speaker 2>part of the business. We ended up using that survey

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<v Speaker 2>result that first year to decide to sell that part

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<v Speaker 2>of the business off, and so we're like Okay, we're

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<v Speaker 2>at we're not gonna be.

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<v Speaker 3>Able to keep up.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's just let them I'm done going to the co

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<v Speaker 2>location and stuff like that. So we use the survey

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<v Speaker 2>to make a business decision, but we decided we publish

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<v Speaker 2>all the results for everybody make it because we were like,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of other interesting details in there around

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<v Speaker 2>like what their party services people are using, and like

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<v Speaker 2>we're using.

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<v Speaker 3>For error monitoring or performance tracking.

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<v Speaker 2>Things are just again and get a sense of like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>how other people are doing because people can go online

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<v Speaker 2>and ask those questions you know, in IRC chat conversations

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<v Speaker 2>back in the day or some forums or stack over

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<v Speaker 2>floor or whatever, and I was like, we kind of

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to just like let's get a broader range of people.

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<v Speaker 2>So we've been doing this, you know, every other year

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<v Speaker 2>since then. So this last year when we did it,

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<v Speaker 2>our typical approach has been one reach out to people

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<v Speaker 2>taken in the past, and so a lot of those

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<v Speaker 2>people came to us from social media, following us on

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<v Speaker 2>different blogs and stuff like that. Reaching out to the

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<v Speaker 2>mailing like the Rails, Rails Talk mailing lists and other

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<v Speaker 2>groups that were you know, we're around at the time,

425
00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:21.599
<v Speaker 2>but So for this last year, we did put a

426
00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.079
<v Speaker 2>lot of energy into working with the Rails Foundation, in

427
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:28.400
<v Speaker 2>particular Amanda there and so uh, she had approached me

428
00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.200
<v Speaker 2>the year before when she first got hired at the

429
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.400
<v Speaker 2>Rails Foundation to talk about the survey. She actually that

430
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:35.440
<v Speaker 2>was the first time I actually spoke with her about it.

431
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:37.039
<v Speaker 2>Was she reached out and said, Hey, I want to

432
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:39.920
<v Speaker 2>talk about the survey and the Rails Foundation. I was like, Oh, no,

433
00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.640
<v Speaker 2>they're gonna They're gonna start doing this themselves, and I

434
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:44.240
<v Speaker 2>guess we're no longer going to get to do that.

435
00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:46.640
<v Speaker 2>That's that's what I was preparing for, Like, I guess

436
00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:48.440
<v Speaker 2>we're kind of out of the business of doing this,

437
00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:50.559
<v Speaker 2>and it's a lot of work to run the surveys

438
00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:52.200
<v Speaker 2>and stuff as well, So it wouldn't be the worst

439
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.640
<v Speaker 2>thing in the world. But through that conversation, I was like, Oh,

440
00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:57.720
<v Speaker 2>they have very different things that they're looking for than

441
00:19:57.759 --> 00:20:00.279
<v Speaker 2>we do. But what we did decide to that we

442
00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:02.160
<v Speaker 2>would go to the Rails Foundation. So they took that

443
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:03.680
<v Speaker 2>to the board and be like, what sort of other

444
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.200
<v Speaker 2>topics and questions might they the other Foundation members like,

445
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, shopifys and doctimity and companies like that might

446
00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:15.400
<v Speaker 2>be interested in hearing about the ecosystem right now, and

447
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.480
<v Speaker 2>so we we got some new questions and topics and

448
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:20.880
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that came up. So we ended up

449
00:20:20.920 --> 00:20:23.759
<v Speaker 2>adding a lot of new questions related to education and

450
00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:26.000
<v Speaker 2>like how people are learning about rails or how they're

451
00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:29.400
<v Speaker 2>what type of content are they consuming to level up

452
00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.720
<v Speaker 2>as developers, and is the assumption that video stuff is

453
00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.359
<v Speaker 2>the future actually resonating with the majority of developers, So

454
00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.279
<v Speaker 2>that we can get into some of the stats there.

455
00:20:40.279 --> 00:20:42.519
<v Speaker 2>But in terms of the reaching out to people, it

456
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.319
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of hitting the social media as I

457
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.920
<v Speaker 2>emailed everybody that I could, you know, I had reached

458
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:53.200
<v Speaker 2>out to in the past, and to have anyone that

459
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:55.359
<v Speaker 2>I knew that's written books in the last few years

460
00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:58.799
<v Speaker 2>about Ruby or rails related themes, or people I've interviewed

461
00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:00.400
<v Speaker 2>that happened to be part of the ecosism them like

462
00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.319
<v Speaker 2>reached out to them, emailed them like, hey, can you

463
00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:05.240
<v Speaker 2>blast this to your group or your mailing list, anyone

464
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:07.240
<v Speaker 2>that runs a mailing list. So we have like a

465
00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:09.720
<v Speaker 2>big checklist of places that we reach out to, but

466
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:11.960
<v Speaker 2>we do want to make that as broad as possible,

467
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:12.519
<v Speaker 2>so it's not.

468
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:15.759
<v Speaker 3>It's not just like maybe.

469
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:18.640
<v Speaker 2>One company that's like Shopify drops it in their internal

470
00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:20.839
<v Speaker 2>chat tool and then it's just like half the you know,

471
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.680
<v Speaker 2>the people are just Shopify employees filling it out and

472
00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:24.720
<v Speaker 2>all the data looks the same.

473
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.559
<v Speaker 3>So so and.

474
00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:28.279
<v Speaker 2>So I'm always worried that that's going to be a

475
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:30.279
<v Speaker 2>thing because it wouldn't take a lot for like something

476
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:32.559
<v Speaker 2>to drastically skew the data when we've got I think

477
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.720
<v Speaker 2>we had a little over twenty seven hundred participants, which

478
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:38.319
<v Speaker 2>is the most we've ever had. A lot of people

479
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>want to fill out a sixty question survey, you know

480
00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:44.039
<v Speaker 2>that often, so it takes a little bit to go

481
00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:46.480
<v Speaker 2>through that process. But but that's where we're able to

482
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:50.880
<v Speaker 2>end up. So that answer your question enough, I suppose.

483
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I think so. I kind of want to

484
00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:57.359
<v Speaker 1>pull Valentino and I use it in Did you guys

485
00:21:57.359 --> 00:21:59.119
<v Speaker 1>get a chance to look at the survey? And I'm

486
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:02.279
<v Speaker 1>curious was there anything that stood out to you because

487
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:05.599
<v Speaker 1>I don't know which section to really start with why.

488
00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:07.440
<v Speaker 1>I have some ideas, but I want to hear from

489
00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:08.279
<v Speaker 1>you guys.

490
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.200
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think I looked at at when the results

491
00:22:12.200 --> 00:22:14.960
<v Speaker 4>first came out because I'm fairly sure I actually did

492
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:17.960
<v Speaker 4>fill it out, and I can't remember whether I did,

493
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:19.880
<v Speaker 4>but I'm like ninety nine percent sure that that I

494
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.319
<v Speaker 4>did fill it out. A couple of things that cut

495
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:27.079
<v Speaker 4>my One was obviously the fact that stimulus d throw

496
00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:29.480
<v Speaker 4>and react, which made me quite happy because I know

497
00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:30.200
<v Speaker 4>to react.

498
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:34.319
<v Speaker 3>That's how you realize that.

499
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.359
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, the other thing I found quite interesting, purely

500
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:43.960
<v Speaker 4>from a selfish point of view, was how people learn

501
00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:46.559
<v Speaker 4>Drew Andrells, because obfullly I've written a book as well,

502
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:49.559
<v Speaker 4>so I found it quite interesting to just see how

503
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:56.359
<v Speaker 4>people learning. And it's interesting to see that more people

504
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:00.240
<v Speaker 4>kind of watch videos and tutorials rather than read book

505
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:04.200
<v Speaker 4>or something like that, because yeah, I guess horses for

506
00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:08.160
<v Speaker 4>courses and stuff, but on I prefer text based rather

507
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:12.000
<v Speaker 4>than video. But it's it's always interesting to know like

508
00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:17.039
<v Speaker 4>what other people are preferring, especially if you're trying to

509
00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:20.680
<v Speaker 4>sell an educational product. So those are a couple of

510
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.720
<v Speaker 4>things that kind of I found particularly interesting out of

511
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:24.480
<v Speaker 4>the results.

512
00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:28.319
<v Speaker 2>Quick quick thought on that one when it comes to

513
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.519
<v Speaker 2>like the I think that's an interesting thought there around

514
00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:35.680
<v Speaker 2>Like you read books, I skim books.

515
00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:36.079
<v Speaker 1>I'm not.

516
00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:39.160
<v Speaker 2>I think I'm actually slightly dyslexic, and so I'm not.

517
00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:41.480
<v Speaker 2>It's always been really difficult for me to get through

518
00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of text based things necessarily. But one of

519
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the other questions we did ask so it was like

520
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>what types of education and content helps you learn most effectively?

521
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.960
<v Speaker 2>And video stuff was not It's like the fourth I

522
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:55.319
<v Speaker 2>think it was like tied with books.

523
00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:59.359
<v Speaker 3>So most people said that they find blog posts.

524
00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:00.960
<v Speaker 2>And like the Rails guy, it's to be the most

525
00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:03.440
<v Speaker 2>effective way to learn.

526
00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:05.400
<v Speaker 3>But they're consuming a lot of videos.

527
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:08.359
<v Speaker 2>So it's like it's is there are they learning from

528
00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:10.319
<v Speaker 2>the videos or are they just spending more time watching

529
00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:14.440
<v Speaker 2>videos and because it's an easier way to consume that information.

530
00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:17.359
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I don't know, but video is an interesting one,

531
00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.079
<v Speaker 2>but I don't know. Again, this is what the people

532
00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:24.200
<v Speaker 2>are kind of reported, so it's all they're all really

533
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:27.240
<v Speaker 2>closely kind of aligned in the stats as well, So

534
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:30.839
<v Speaker 2>like there was no I think huge prizes to me there,

535
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.319
<v Speaker 2>but otherwise people saying that like working on you know,

536
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.359
<v Speaker 2>the documentation and things like that. So which is I

537
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.960
<v Speaker 2>think A good good thing that came out of this

538
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.359
<v Speaker 2>was like the the Rails Foundation, like Amanda them, they

539
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:44.480
<v Speaker 2>had I know that they.

540
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:46.559
<v Speaker 3>Were working on a number of projects related to.

541
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:53.079
<v Speaker 2>Video content and the new guides, like redesigning the way

542
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:56.039
<v Speaker 2>that all looks and revisiting a lot of the content there,

543
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:58.240
<v Speaker 2>and so there's a lot of energy trying to be

544
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:00.319
<v Speaker 2>on like let's do video, let's also do this. We

545
00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:02.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of like have to come out of from different

546
00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.519
<v Speaker 2>persons because there are just people do learn different people

547
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:07.279
<v Speaker 2>learn differently, and so it's like, how do we make

548
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:11.079
<v Speaker 2>this this as inclusive as possible.

549
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:16.240
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm looking at that question now about learning most effectively,

550
00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:19.680
<v Speaker 4>and that's interesting. I wouldn't have expected that that mismatch there,

551
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.119
<v Speaker 4>But I guess like for me, we're personally with videos,

552
00:25:23.319 --> 00:25:26.599
<v Speaker 4>I tend to zone out sometimes and then I'll come

553
00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:29.440
<v Speaker 4>back a minute later and like, Okay, crap, I've forgotten

554
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:32.599
<v Speaker 4>to rewind and watch this again. And then you can't

555
00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:36.039
<v Speaker 4>command f a video. So that those are my two

556
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:37.000
<v Speaker 4>biggest gripes.

557
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.359
<v Speaker 2>That's true, you can't. I mean in the same way

558
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:43.599
<v Speaker 2>like I was reading a book last night and before

559
00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:45.559
<v Speaker 2>I went to sleep, and I was like, got two

560
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:48.680
<v Speaker 2>pages and I'm like, what did I just read? I

561
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:51.160
<v Speaker 2>have no I've seen the words. I don't know what

562
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:53.599
<v Speaker 2>I just read. So let me start that again. But

563
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:57.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's interesting. Live streamers came two percent of

564
00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:59.920
<v Speaker 2>people find that the most effective way to learn, or

565
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:06.400
<v Speaker 2>or podcasts, and so our podcast educational or they media

566
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:09.880
<v Speaker 2>consumption or you know, it's this kind of like auxiliary information.

567
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.559
<v Speaker 2>But maybe is this an educational platform. I don't know.

568
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:17.960
<v Speaker 1>I think it depends. One other thing that I wanted

569
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:20.240
<v Speaker 1>to point out was that I think a lot of

570
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.440
<v Speaker 1>newer folks are going to lean more toward video casts

571
00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:27.160
<v Speaker 1>and books and maybe the rails Guide some I think

572
00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:29.880
<v Speaker 1>as you get more advanced, you start looking more at

573
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.599
<v Speaker 1>the blog posts and documentation and maybe podcasts to just

574
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:35.920
<v Speaker 1>give you kind of here's what's the latest thing that's

575
00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:41.039
<v Speaker 1>out there. That that was kind of what I got

576
00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:42.279
<v Speaker 1>out of it, And so I think you had a

577
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:46.119
<v Speaker 1>lot of experienced folks that they don't need as much

578
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:48.920
<v Speaker 1>of the walkthrough on some of the stuff that's out there,

579
00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:52.640
<v Speaker 1>and maybe they're reaching for the documentation and stuff instead.

580
00:26:54.319 --> 00:26:57.240
<v Speaker 5>I feel like this is one of the hardest categories

581
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:02.400
<v Speaker 5>to extract something meaningful from the survey, right, because like

582
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:05.119
<v Speaker 5>I feel like learning, like you do kind of like

583
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:10.079
<v Speaker 5>pick a variety of different things to like build up

584
00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:13.839
<v Speaker 5>your learning material and maybe different ways that you do

585
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:18.039
<v Speaker 5>you don't think about and how much they impact you too, Right,

586
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.680
<v Speaker 5>Like I remember like really diving hard into reels guides

587
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:23.960
<v Speaker 5>when I was first like looking at stuff and like

588
00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 5>doing the reels casts, but there was a bunch of

589
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:29.680
<v Speaker 5>other stuff that was I was also listening to Ruby

590
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:31.960
<v Speaker 5>Rogues at the time and like a bunch of other

591
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.519
<v Speaker 5>podcasts that just like try and stay up to date, right,

592
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:35.680
<v Speaker 5>And how much does that.

593
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.200
<v Speaker 6>Influence your learning ability?

594
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.480
<v Speaker 5>Right, and like just being able to adapt to the

595
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:44.200
<v Speaker 5>material that you're learning. It's like almost like that, you know,

596
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:49.400
<v Speaker 5>reflective learning that like helps like harden and make things

597
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:50.279
<v Speaker 5>stick a little better.

598
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:53.480
<v Speaker 6>And so it's like I always look at the survey.

599
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.359
<v Speaker 5>And like wonder, like, you know, how do you are

600
00:27:56.359 --> 00:27:57.519
<v Speaker 5>we capturing everything?

601
00:27:58.400 --> 00:28:00.960
<v Speaker 2>You're right? And I think it's always like how do

602
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:05.480
<v Speaker 2>you try to contextualize this in a way that's these

603
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:09.799
<v Speaker 2>are not like conclusive, you know, like we didn't ask

604
00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:12.279
<v Speaker 2>people like prove it, you know, prove that this is

605
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:15.000
<v Speaker 2>how you learn most effectively. It's like it's like in

606
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.680
<v Speaker 2>the moment type of like responses that we're getting, So

607
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.480
<v Speaker 2>we how do we read the tea leaves a little bit,

608
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:22.400
<v Speaker 2>I suppose, but it's not.

609
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:26.400
<v Speaker 6>It's almost like what they remember most that they think worked.

610
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:31.759
<v Speaker 3>Best and recent. Yeah, right, it's still important.

611
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:37.039
<v Speaker 5>I'm always fascinated about the section though, Yeah, because it does.

612
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:39.160
<v Speaker 6>Change a year after year two quite a bit.

613
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:43.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, a couple of other things in the learning.

614
00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:46.880
<v Speaker 2>I was gonna say that one of the one of

615
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.000
<v Speaker 2>the things I was and I haven't got I didn't

616
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:52.000
<v Speaker 2>get a chance to go like pivot the data to

617
00:28:52.000 --> 00:28:55.359
<v Speaker 2>too much on this particular one, but the because you know,

618
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.119
<v Speaker 2>we're able to look at like how long people have

619
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:57.920
<v Speaker 2>been working.

620
00:28:57.680 --> 00:28:59.519
<v Speaker 3>With rails and then try to look at the data for.

621
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:02.200
<v Speaker 2>That, and like if I had thought ahead more, I

622
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.880
<v Speaker 2>could maybe got some more interesting details for that. But

623
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:07.720
<v Speaker 2>the I was thinking one of the one of the

624
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.119
<v Speaker 2>things is that we know in the community is just

625
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:15.960
<v Speaker 2>that you know, this was also conducted you know, late spring,

626
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:19.599
<v Speaker 2>early summer ish last year, summer last year, so twenty

627
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:22.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty four, and you know, there was a lot of

628
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:25.599
<v Speaker 2>layoffs in the year prior. There's not a lot of

629
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:29.880
<v Speaker 2>junior developers getting hired in the community. Coding schools kind

630
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.960
<v Speaker 2>of a lot of them closed. We used to I

631
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:35.279
<v Speaker 2>used to know that one of our strategies in the

632
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:38.079
<v Speaker 2>past to ask questions to people was to hit the

633
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:40.839
<v Speaker 2>some of the coding schools. They that would get shared

634
00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:42.720
<v Speaker 2>around some of them, you know, some of those developed

635
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.559
<v Speaker 2>some of the developer they would share with their their

636
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:47.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, their their recent graduates or previous graduates. They

637
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.279
<v Speaker 2>would share it, you know, like here filut the surveys.

638
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 2>So so I think there's like data. I think we

639
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.880
<v Speaker 2>got a good capture of people that are actually working

640
00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:58.319
<v Speaker 2>with rails right now and not too so that I

641
00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:00.440
<v Speaker 2>feel like that's interesting, but we didn't really they also

642
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.000
<v Speaker 2>have maybe as many junior people participating or maybe because

643
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:07.079
<v Speaker 2>there's actually just last junior developers, uh coming into the

644
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:09.640
<v Speaker 2>into the market in the last year or two prior

645
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:12.880
<v Speaker 2>to the when we conducted this particular survey this time.

646
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.839
<v Speaker 2>But so, I don't know, it's kind of it's it's

647
00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:16.440
<v Speaker 2>always a little bit interesting to see how that data

648
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:18.400
<v Speaker 2>fluctuates a little bit, but also by how little it

649
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.519
<v Speaker 2>changes sometimes too, there's a lot of the data that's

650
00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:24.759
<v Speaker 2>like we're looking, I'm like, how did Linux usage didn't

651
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:26.799
<v Speaker 2>move like like more than like a percent or two

652
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.519
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like what how despite you know, like DH

653
00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:32.160
<v Speaker 2>is talking about it all the time or something. So

654
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.039
<v Speaker 2>it's just like, I'm like, how does this not move

655
00:30:35.079 --> 00:30:35.599
<v Speaker 2>a lot more?

656
00:30:36.839 --> 00:30:42.160
<v Speaker 1>Omacoub Yeah, so Valentino, was there a section that step

657
00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:42.359
<v Speaker 1>to you?

658
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:49.480
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I'm always fascinated to see, uh, kind of like

659
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:52.559
<v Speaker 5>I usued, you know, where the front end stuff shifts,

660
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.640
<v Speaker 5>because that's definitely the thing that changes the most, I

661
00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:56.839
<v Speaker 5>would say over time.

662
00:30:57.720 --> 00:30:58.119
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm.

663
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:01.759
<v Speaker 5>So it's it is interest seeing to see stimulus rank

664
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:05.680
<v Speaker 5>so high personally, and maybe that's just because I've been

665
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:10.000
<v Speaker 5>stuck in a very fixed front end for for so long.

666
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.880
<v Speaker 5>Maybe I just don't see the underpinnings there, But it

667
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:19.640
<v Speaker 5>is interesting to see the stimulus adoption over time just

668
00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:21.000
<v Speaker 5>get such great support.

669
00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:26.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's awesome if anyone's looking to figure out

670
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.559
<v Speaker 1>how to do stimulus with rails, I can't recommend I

671
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:36.079
<v Speaker 1>used this book highly enough. So yeah, I mean, on

672
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:40.640
<v Speaker 1>that note, though, I did notice it like you still

673
00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:45.119
<v Speaker 1>got React, jQuery, View and next JS and Angular JS

674
00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:48.400
<v Speaker 1>is kind of the next five and then you get

675
00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:51.759
<v Speaker 1>to an Alpine JS, which is a minimalist framework kind

676
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:56.079
<v Speaker 1>of like stimulus. So of course then I kind of

677
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:58.839
<v Speaker 1>laughed because I saw backbone and handlebars on here too.

678
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:04.720
<v Speaker 2>These things don't go away, No, they don't. Well, a

679
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:07.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of I mean and something I gave a talk

680
00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:12.480
<v Speaker 2>at Rails World about dealing with like techno debt and

681
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:14.480
<v Speaker 2>rails applications a lot of things, and like a lot

682
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:19.279
<v Speaker 2>of projects have multiple job as script libraries in them

683
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.519
<v Speaker 2>because there's a tendency to, hey, we want to work

684
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:24.519
<v Speaker 2>on this new set of features. This might feel like

685
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:27.880
<v Speaker 2>a perfect opportunity to experiment with that new framework we've

686
00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.960
<v Speaker 2>been itching to play with, So let's use it over here.

687
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:33.440
<v Speaker 2>And so they'll add it and they'll start working on

688
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:36.039
<v Speaker 2>the new functionality, new features because it's easy to sneak

689
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.440
<v Speaker 2>it into that with the product and like, okay, we're

690
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:39.960
<v Speaker 2>going to do this over here, because it's a lot

691
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.079
<v Speaker 2>harder to sell them on retrofitting some existing stuff. And

692
00:32:44.119 --> 00:32:45.799
<v Speaker 2>so they do that and they kind of like the

693
00:32:45.839 --> 00:32:47.680
<v Speaker 2>first project or two that they do is kind of

694
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:49.559
<v Speaker 2>like they're trying to learn on the job type of thing,

695
00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:51.519
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, well, we learned some stuff, and like

696
00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:53.759
<v Speaker 2>the next time, well we'll come back and refactor it.

697
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:54.839
<v Speaker 3>And maybe they do or you don't.

698
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:57.119
<v Speaker 2>And then a year or two later they're still working

699
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.920
<v Speaker 2>on this stuff, and then they introduce another one, and

700
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:00.880
<v Speaker 2>then there's another one, you know, then they like, well,

701
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:03.400
<v Speaker 2>we'll keep the admin area like this in this area,

702
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:04.720
<v Speaker 2>and then we have this other new section.

703
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:05.640
<v Speaker 3>We'll use this thing.

704
00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:07.559
<v Speaker 2>And so then you've got like three or four different

705
00:33:07.559 --> 00:33:12.599
<v Speaker 2>frameworks in your your your your rails application ecosystem, and

706
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:14.839
<v Speaker 2>you're like, well, which one is the better one. It's like,

707
00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:16.880
<v Speaker 2>is it the newer one or is the one that

708
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:19.799
<v Speaker 2>people complain about the least. And so one of the

709
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:23.119
<v Speaker 2>things that I've been advocating for teams to consider is,

710
00:33:23.960 --> 00:33:25.920
<v Speaker 2>I dare you too, If you really want to use

711
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:28.599
<v Speaker 2>that new thing, do it on your existing stable features first,

712
00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:31.599
<v Speaker 2>because you should already have really good healthy test coverage there.

713
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.240
<v Speaker 2>And if it doesn't work and you're not figuring it out,

714
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.960
<v Speaker 2>you can just get reverted and things are still working.

715
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:42.279
<v Speaker 2>But try to force yourself to implement it on existing stuff.

716
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:44.680
<v Speaker 2>If that's too hard, I guarantee it's not going to

717
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:47.119
<v Speaker 2>get easier two years from now to do that make

718
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:47.599
<v Speaker 2>that change.

719
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.440
<v Speaker 3>You're just going to stick with it, and you're going

720
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:49.880
<v Speaker 3>to have this.

721
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Problem where you're not able to upgrade different things or

722
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:56.559
<v Speaker 2>you got all the job ascript chaos going on on

723
00:33:56.559 --> 00:34:00.039
<v Speaker 2>your front end framework. So easier said than done. But

724
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.079
<v Speaker 2>I that's that's that's the thing that I'm trying to

725
00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:06.039
<v Speaker 2>pitch teams to try to consider doing is like, take

726
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:07.839
<v Speaker 2>a hard look at the do the hard thing.

727
00:34:07.880 --> 00:34:08.639
<v Speaker 3>If you're not only to do.

728
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.239
<v Speaker 2>It, stick with the framework that you're already using, because

729
00:34:11.239 --> 00:34:12.920
<v Speaker 2>that's you're going to be stuck with it anyway.

730
00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:17.719
<v Speaker 4>So I'm always quite reluctant to try and rewrite features

731
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:22.800
<v Speaker 4>that already exist using something newer. So, uh, well, I

732
00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:25.760
<v Speaker 4>completely agree with your approach. You're trying to introduce something

733
00:34:25.800 --> 00:34:29.000
<v Speaker 4>new to some the feature that already exists. But where

734
00:34:29.320 --> 00:34:32.920
<v Speaker 4>what's the judgment called the how do you decide that

735
00:34:33.400 --> 00:34:35.039
<v Speaker 4>this is a new thing that we want to try

736
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:39.159
<v Speaker 4>and we're going to rewrite something that already works against Well,

737
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:41.599
<v Speaker 4>that feature already works. I don't see why we should

738
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:44.159
<v Speaker 4>spend time rewriting it using something new.

739
00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.599
<v Speaker 2>I think the typical developer answer It depends. I think

740
00:34:49.639 --> 00:34:56.119
<v Speaker 2>the the challenge there is, especially with soft some projects

741
00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:00.559
<v Speaker 2>where you know that they're your team's already starting to

742
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:05.000
<v Speaker 2>divest themselves, and so it's interesting. I'm a big, a

743
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:07.280
<v Speaker 2>big advocate for not rewriting, and so like, well, I

744
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.599
<v Speaker 2>guess I'm advocating for like micro rewrites you know, in

745
00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:13.599
<v Speaker 2>certain areas. And so it's just why do we treat

746
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.960
<v Speaker 2>like a front end framework differently than we would with

747
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:19.079
<v Speaker 2>like say a Ruby gem that's no longer going to

748
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:22.039
<v Speaker 2>be supported, we need to migrate that. And so if

749
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.000
<v Speaker 2>the lift is so high, then I feel like we're

750
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:30.039
<v Speaker 2>already admitting that the front end is just going to

751
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:32.679
<v Speaker 2>be too much of a mess. That like we're when

752
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:35.280
<v Speaker 2>we make a decision, we're making a really long term

753
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:40.280
<v Speaker 2>decision with this, and how how can we approach that

754
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:42.840
<v Speaker 2>a little bit more? Like are there ways for us

755
00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:46.480
<v Speaker 2>to refactor parts of it, you know, like or rebuild

756
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:48.000
<v Speaker 2>parts of it and figure out how to glue things

757
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:50.239
<v Speaker 2>together like I've I've you know, work with a number

758
00:35:50.280 --> 00:35:53.239
<v Speaker 2>of teams that in the consulting capacity where they've done

759
00:35:53.320 --> 00:35:55.920
<v Speaker 2>like these migrations where they're moving from Angular to react

760
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:58.719
<v Speaker 2>or something, you know, because Angular one to Angular two

761
00:35:59.880 --> 00:36:02.119
<v Speaker 2>was necessarily like a good upgrade path for a lot

762
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:04.320
<v Speaker 2>of people, and so that could happen with any of

763
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:06.840
<v Speaker 2>the frameworks that you know, we talk about. There's always

764
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:10.360
<v Speaker 2>a chance of that happening. But for these existing stable features.

765
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:12.280
<v Speaker 2>It's just more of like, if your team's trying to

766
00:36:12.360 --> 00:36:15.159
<v Speaker 2>experiment and learn, just learn on something you already know

767
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:17.800
<v Speaker 2>how it's supposed to work from like a user perspective,

768
00:36:17.880 --> 00:36:20.800
<v Speaker 2>and like can you experiment with that and test out

769
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:22.679
<v Speaker 2>if this idea is going to work well before you

770
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:24.679
<v Speaker 2>start building on some new ideas and learning on the

771
00:36:24.760 --> 00:36:26.519
<v Speaker 2>job with that new framework, because a lot of these

772
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:29.480
<v Speaker 2>new frameworks don't necessarily have a lot of good documutation initially,

773
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:31.119
<v Speaker 2>or they have some documentation, but there's not a lot

774
00:36:31.159 --> 00:36:34.360
<v Speaker 2>of real world experience yet. So you're learning, you're sharing

775
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:37.079
<v Speaker 2>as you go. But that's but the story of the

776
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:39.400
<v Speaker 2>front end has been we're all learning on the job

777
00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:42.760
<v Speaker 2>and it doesn't get it's been difficult to go back

778
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.920
<v Speaker 2>and clean things up. So I'm just trying to like

779
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:48.480
<v Speaker 2>a maybe advocate for like maybe there's a different can

780
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:52.280
<v Speaker 2>we experiment with some different approaches, because that has been

781
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:56.880
<v Speaker 2>the go to approach. You don't break the existing stuff

782
00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:59.960
<v Speaker 2>because it works great, but if it's but that's a thing,

783
00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:03.599
<v Speaker 2>if it's going to break, how do you make it

784
00:37:03.639 --> 00:37:04.400
<v Speaker 2>less breakable?

785
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:04.920
<v Speaker 1>And so.

786
00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:08.519
<v Speaker 2>I don't this this is the heart, This is the

787
00:37:08.519 --> 00:37:10.000
<v Speaker 2>hard part. Of our job, I supposed to try to

788
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:10.760
<v Speaker 2>figure this stuff out.

789
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.960
<v Speaker 1>So, yeah, it reminds me a little bit of a

790
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.800
<v Speaker 1>scientific experiment, right, So you have these studies that are

791
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:19.960
<v Speaker 1>done right, and so they have the control and then

792
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:24.920
<v Speaker 1>they've got kind of their experimental set. And typically the

793
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:27.199
<v Speaker 1>best practice is is you only change the thing that

794
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:31.119
<v Speaker 1>you want to see what difference it makes. Right, And

795
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:35.880
<v Speaker 1>so if you're doing a new problem and inventing a

796
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:38.599
<v Speaker 1>new solution and using a new tool for it as

797
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:42.480
<v Speaker 1>opposed to doing a well understood problem that's already been

798
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:44.679
<v Speaker 1>solved with the tool you already have, yeah, then you

799
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:47.639
<v Speaker 1>have a real good comparison to see where where the

800
00:37:47.639 --> 00:37:48.320
<v Speaker 1>trade off is.

801
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:52.320
<v Speaker 2>You might find that, you know, if you're just rebuild

802
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.679
<v Speaker 2>like a small part of your application or front end

803
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:58.760
<v Speaker 2>with a different jobs, you might be like all those

804
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:01.239
<v Speaker 2>assumptions we made of this was going to be way better, Actually,

805
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:04.039
<v Speaker 2>like it's got some weird things that we didn't quite realize,

806
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:07.079
<v Speaker 2>And is that trade off going to be okay for

807
00:38:07.159 --> 00:38:10.760
<v Speaker 2>us in the future or because then because I think

808
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:12.639
<v Speaker 2>the question is going to be you start, you're using

809
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:14.360
<v Speaker 2>that new thing on the new functionality, are you ever

810
00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:17.679
<v Speaker 2>going to go back and rewrite that stuff or are

811
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:20.360
<v Speaker 2>you saying that those existing stable things are just never

812
00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:23.840
<v Speaker 2>going to change. So that's why you laugh about like backbone, Like,

813
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:25.880
<v Speaker 2>there's plenty of projects out there that are running just

814
00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.159
<v Speaker 2>fine with backbone. We work on projects like that, and

815
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:31.000
<v Speaker 2>I can tell you we tried to do a project

816
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:34.039
<v Speaker 2>for one of our large clients that was the client

817
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:35.920
<v Speaker 2>was like, yeah, we want to move to react from

818
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:38.800
<v Speaker 2>the backbone, and we were working through this big rewrite

819
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:42.360
<v Speaker 2>on the front end and eventually we agree, like, you know,

820
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:46.320
<v Speaker 2>this doesn't feel like it's we're this doesn't feel like that.

821
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:48.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to value to your business necessarily, but

822
00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.599
<v Speaker 2>this is fine. But yeah, we're probably you know, they're

823
00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:54.000
<v Speaker 2>like they decided they're going to end up life that

824
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.360
<v Speaker 2>particular project anyways, and then a year choose so we

825
00:38:57.440 --> 00:38:58.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, we hit the.

826
00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:01.199
<v Speaker 3>Brakes on that particular project. But those are.

827
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:06.239
<v Speaker 2>If where is the future of these projects going to be?

828
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:07.800
<v Speaker 2>And like how where do you want to kind of

829
00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:12.199
<v Speaker 2>sit with that? And again it's a difficult part of

830
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:13.280
<v Speaker 2>our job, I suppose, But.

831
00:39:14.840 --> 00:39:18.119
<v Speaker 1>Yep, all right, I'm going to hit one of these

832
00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:24.079
<v Speaker 1>areas that I was interested in. I'm going to talk

833
00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:26.960
<v Speaker 1>a little bit about deployment and DevOps. I would have

834
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:31.199
<v Speaker 1>picked things like Ruby and Rails versions, but it seems

835
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:35.039
<v Speaker 1>like the majority of people are close to, if not

836
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.559
<v Speaker 1>using the latest thing, and so I was just like, oh, okay,

837
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:43.519
<v Speaker 1>good yeah. So yeah, So a couple of things. One

838
00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.480
<v Speaker 1>is what deployment tool do you use? And the other

839
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:51.239
<v Speaker 1>one was how often do you deploy? And I've always

840
00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:54.559
<v Speaker 1>wondered because I haven't really looked at surveys like this

841
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:57.480
<v Speaker 1>that often, you know, are people really doing kind of

842
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:01.960
<v Speaker 1>the continuous deployment and then they're deploying off or are

843
00:40:01.960 --> 00:40:05.159
<v Speaker 1>are you know, people mostly on a we're going to

844
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.440
<v Speaker 1>release after our sprint or we're going to release after

845
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:12.320
<v Speaker 1>our you know, after our big set of whatever, right,

846
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.239
<v Speaker 1>which is always painful whenever I've done that places I've worked.

847
00:40:17.079 --> 00:40:20.679
<v Speaker 1>But it looks like the majority I shouldn't say majority,

848
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:26.559
<v Speaker 1>but a large number of people are deploying every day

849
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.880
<v Speaker 1>or every week. I mean it's thirty seven percent for

850
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:33.800
<v Speaker 1>every day multiply multiple times a day, and thirty six

851
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:36.840
<v Speaker 1>percent for multiple times a week, which to me says

852
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:40.400
<v Speaker 1>that they're doing it, you know, possibly several days during

853
00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:44.000
<v Speaker 1>the week. And so yeah, I mean that's like what

854
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:47.280
<v Speaker 1>seventy three percent, So that I thought that was very

855
00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:48.119
<v Speaker 1>very fascinating.

856
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it kind of surprises me when we'll we'll have

857
00:40:53.360 --> 00:40:57.440
<v Speaker 2>client engagements will come in to do some consulting for

858
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.400
<v Speaker 2>a short period of time, and those those are one

859
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:01.320
<v Speaker 2>of their usual questions we ask. It's like, tell us

860
00:41:01.320 --> 00:41:04.960
<v Speaker 2>about your workflow for pushing stuff out. And then there's

861
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:06.239
<v Speaker 2>the companies we talk to. You are like, oh, yeah,

862
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.280
<v Speaker 2>we our team deploys.

863
00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:09.639
<v Speaker 3>Hundreds of times a day.

864
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:13.199
<v Speaker 2>You're like, what, okay, so there's that too, the extreme

865
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:15.079
<v Speaker 2>of like oh yeah, like every three weeks we push

866
00:41:15.079 --> 00:41:16.920
<v Speaker 2>out a thing. You know. I'm just like, okay, that

867
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:20.320
<v Speaker 2>feels like unless there's some like seven one issue type

868
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:22.400
<v Speaker 2>thing we need to push out, like a quick bug

869
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.599
<v Speaker 2>fix or something there's like a huge issue going on.

870
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:27.519
<v Speaker 2>But otherwise they're like, we don't. And I think it's

871
00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:30.199
<v Speaker 2>always contextual also, like you know, way to pivot. That

872
00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:33.239
<v Speaker 2>would be like if there's a lot of restrictions in

873
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.400
<v Speaker 2>their particular industries, like maybe it's healthcare for example, or

874
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:39.760
<v Speaker 2>with companies and healthcare, some companies like they have very

875
00:41:39.840 --> 00:41:42.360
<v Speaker 2>very rigorous process around that because they have to be

876
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:44.719
<v Speaker 2>able to have an audit trail that they can report

877
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:47.719
<v Speaker 2>to the governments or something. So it's a lot of

878
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:51.119
<v Speaker 2>weird things that can kind of change that. So then

879
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:53.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm always curious about how they then have to deal

880
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:56.440
<v Speaker 2>with as a development workflow Q things up for a

881
00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:00.239
<v Speaker 2>bigger bulker release versus having a lot of like these

882
00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:04.880
<v Speaker 2>micro small things they can get shipped out. I think

883
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:06.960
<v Speaker 2>it depends on you know, the context, context of that

884
00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:10.000
<v Speaker 2>particular business and industry or and a lot of people

885
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:14.920
<v Speaker 2>just being really you know, concerned about breaking things, like

886
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:16.840
<v Speaker 2>if they have a really brittle environment, they need to

887
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.000
<v Speaker 2>really rigorous QA process before they push things out or not. So,

888
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:24.519
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, it's it's it's a lot, it's it's it's

889
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:26.559
<v Speaker 2>encouraging because I remember, I think if you go back

890
00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:28.559
<v Speaker 2>several years that I think that the data for that

891
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:31.280
<v Speaker 2>would be like much lower. It would be like maybe

892
00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:33.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, weekly would be like a pretty common thing

893
00:42:33.920 --> 00:42:34.320
<v Speaker 2>or something.

894
00:42:34.360 --> 00:42:39.079
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, the other one I thought was interesting was

895
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:42.920
<v Speaker 1>this was the first one where Camal was listed as

896
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:48.239
<v Speaker 1>an option for deployment tools, and then there was one

897
00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:51.519
<v Speaker 1>continuous deploy R. I don't know if I've even seen

898
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:55.079
<v Speaker 1>that or was that just a no, it's continuous deployment.

899
00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:55.840
<v Speaker 1>It must be cut off.

900
00:42:55.920 --> 00:43:02.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it's truncated and graphic chart. Yeah, end issue.

901
00:43:02.360 --> 00:43:05.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you've got get and Capistrano. And I don't know

902
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.719
<v Speaker 1>what people mean by get. Is that like a get

903
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:10.280
<v Speaker 1>pushed kind of like Heroku or yeah.

904
00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:14.039
<v Speaker 2>I think yeah, it means which is these are some

905
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:15.719
<v Speaker 2>of the I feel like there's always a really awkward

906
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:17.920
<v Speaker 2>question because we've kept it in because people will if

907
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:21.360
<v Speaker 2>we just limited the set of things, like people will

908
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:22.559
<v Speaker 2>type in other.

909
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:25.480
<v Speaker 3>They'll they'll write things in, so they'll we.

910
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:27.239
<v Speaker 2>Just I think a lot of people don't know the

911
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:29.719
<v Speaker 2>difference between pushing too so there, but I think a

912
00:43:29.760 --> 00:43:31.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of that comes down to, like, yeah, like Heroku

913
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:34.599
<v Speaker 2>is just like get pushed and then pushes to Heroku

914
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:38.000
<v Speaker 2>without explicitly just saying they're deploying to Heroku.

915
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so yeah. It said two point four percent of

916
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:47.599
<v Speaker 1>people reported using Kamal, which I love Kamal. I'm curious

917
00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:51.039
<v Speaker 1>to see next time you do this when you ask

918
00:43:51.079 --> 00:43:54.400
<v Speaker 1>about what proxy and web servers people are using, to

919
00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:57.920
<v Speaker 1>see if Kamal proxy comes in on the list. Because

920
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:02.079
<v Speaker 1>traffic was the default Kamal, one and two hundred and

921
00:44:02.119 --> 00:44:06.079
<v Speaker 1>three people said they were using that and so yeah,

922
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:08.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious to see if that switches up.

923
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:12.239
<v Speaker 2>I would imagine, but you should see.

924
00:44:12.840 --> 00:44:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and Thruster was another piece of that puzzle too,

925
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:16.320
<v Speaker 1>that's on there.

926
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

927
00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:23.000
<v Speaker 5>I'm curious too, like how many people like use chat

928
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:28.480
<v Speaker 5>ops still, Like is that still the go to deployment

929
00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:31.199
<v Speaker 5>for larger organizations.

930
00:44:31.840 --> 00:44:32.800
<v Speaker 6>I'm curious, like do you.

931
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:36.679
<v Speaker 5>Do like a lot of like you know, cross referencing

932
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:40.480
<v Speaker 5>post survey, like to see if like some things are

933
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:45.760
<v Speaker 5>related like interdependency, like you know, the their team size.

934
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:49.119
<v Speaker 6>Is related to how they deploy or x y Z.

935
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:50.639
<v Speaker 1>That'd be interesting.

936
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:52.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we definitely could.

937
00:44:52.920 --> 00:44:57.480
<v Speaker 2>It's just how much we've historically would share all the

938
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:00.000
<v Speaker 2>results with everybody and we just need to put together

939
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:02.199
<v Speaker 2>especially for that, and we just kind of shipped up

940
00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:03.320
<v Speaker 2>before we had a chance to do it this year,

941
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:04.960
<v Speaker 2>so people can kind of play around with the data

942
00:45:05.000 --> 00:45:07.320
<v Speaker 2>there because there's a little bit of data scrubbing we

943
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:09.639
<v Speaker 2>have to do for our privacy stuff there. But the

944
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:13.360
<v Speaker 2>definitely something we can definitely expose for for folks. But

945
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:15.079
<v Speaker 2>what we found is what we've done in the past,

946
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:18.679
<v Speaker 2>like five people would download this and then so we're

947
00:45:18.679 --> 00:45:20.920
<v Speaker 2>like how much how much time am I putting into

948
00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:23.559
<v Speaker 2>something for those five people, but there is there is

949
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:25.360
<v Speaker 2>some there's some ways to do that as well.

950
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:27.639
<v Speaker 6>You got to hook it up to an AI chat

951
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.960
<v Speaker 6>to make it easy. Related.

952
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:33.159
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I hope that I hope that it's accurate.

953
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:35.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

954
00:45:36.679 --> 00:45:37.519
<v Speaker 1>Deploy GPT.

955
00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:43.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, if you've deployed applications using other languages or frameworks,

956
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:45.760
<v Speaker 4>would you say that it has been easier or harder

957
00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.639
<v Speaker 4>to deploy reels applications? And sixteen percent said it was harder,

958
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:54.159
<v Speaker 4>but forty five percent set was easier and thirty nine

959
00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:57.639
<v Speaker 4>percent said it's about the same, which I found interesting

960
00:45:57.760 --> 00:46:01.440
<v Speaker 4>because I've done a little bit of PHP eight years ago,

961
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:06.360
<v Speaker 4>and when I could, I found it quite easy to deploy.

962
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.400
<v Speaker 4>I can't remember exactly what I did was years ago,

963
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:11.400
<v Speaker 4>but it was like I didn't really know the next admin.

964
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:14.039
<v Speaker 4>I still probably not that good with the next admin anyway.

965
00:46:14.440 --> 00:46:16.679
<v Speaker 4>And when I came to try and deploy a rails

966
00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:19.400
<v Speaker 4>app for the first time, which is something about five

967
00:46:19.559 --> 00:46:25.199
<v Speaker 4>years ago, I started using the word to live, I

968
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:28.559
<v Speaker 4>cave and had to use cloud sixty six and even now,

969
00:46:28.679 --> 00:46:31.400
<v Speaker 4>like I would say that like a render dot comfort

970
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:33.880
<v Speaker 4>for hosting, but if I had to do like a

971
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:38.679
<v Speaker 4>bare bones vps. Any Ruby, not just Raels has to

972
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:42.559
<v Speaker 4>deploy any Ruby web app, but it wouldn't be as

973
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:45.239
<v Speaker 4>easy as I as I like. So I just found

974
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:48.880
<v Speaker 4>that response interesting because I don't know, I mean, do you

975
00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:51.760
<v Speaker 4>think do you think people responded easier because of things

976
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:53.239
<v Speaker 4>like render dot com and Heroku?

977
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:56.840
<v Speaker 2>I think yeah, I mean I think that's very much

978
00:46:57.079 --> 00:47:00.840
<v Speaker 2>the probably very much the case for a lot of people.

979
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:03.840
<v Speaker 2>And we definitely could look at pivoting the data data

980
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:06.119
<v Speaker 2>there to see if you can get some more detail

981
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.760
<v Speaker 2>on where people are hosting those applications. But it's interesting,

982
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:12.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, that experience you had coming from Php to Rails,

983
00:47:12.960 --> 00:47:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Like I shared that experience early on because but that

984
00:47:16.960 --> 00:47:19.400
<v Speaker 2>was also why part of what we did from a

985
00:47:19.440 --> 00:47:22.559
<v Speaker 2>company was offer hosting services to make that easier. Because

986
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:26.000
<v Speaker 2>it was so much easier to host a PHP application

987
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:30.199
<v Speaker 2>because you literally just uploaded some PHP files and maybe

988
00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:33.719
<v Speaker 2>you needed to restart the server maybe usually.

989
00:47:33.559 --> 00:47:36.039
<v Speaker 3>Not back then wasn't such a big deal.

990
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:38.239
<v Speaker 2>But rails, you know, you were like, well you got

991
00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:40.840
<v Speaker 2>to run like a little Rail server, and so that

992
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:44.239
<v Speaker 2>that's running behind like your web server, and YadA, YadA, YadA.

993
00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:48.239
<v Speaker 2>And then but things like Capistrano did smooth that out

994
00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:51.519
<v Speaker 2>at one point, and Heroku made it a lot more

995
00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:53.719
<v Speaker 2>accessible to easily quickly deploy so you didn't have to

996
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:56.800
<v Speaker 2>learn how to manage your own Linux server out there

997
00:47:56.800 --> 00:47:59.360
<v Speaker 2>on some you know, rack space or wherever you're hosting

998
00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:04.360
<v Speaker 2>your your vps and stuff like that. So I hear

999
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:09.440
<v Speaker 2>you on that, is it harder or easier? I think

1000
00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:11.400
<v Speaker 2>it's To me, it feels like a lot of I

1001
00:48:11.800 --> 00:48:14.079
<v Speaker 2>think it's because that like a lot of people are

1002
00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:16.599
<v Speaker 2>like it's like thirty nine percent that it's about the same,

1003
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's a little less than half and so,

1004
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.239
<v Speaker 2>but harder. I think it depends on how complicated a

1005
00:48:25.320 --> 00:48:28.440
<v Speaker 2>hosting environment are, because the other things I think it

1006
00:48:28.639 --> 00:48:31.719
<v Speaker 2>related to deploying is also like being able to debug things,

1007
00:48:31.719 --> 00:48:33.320
<v Speaker 2>and I always feel like I feel like one of

1008
00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:35.559
<v Speaker 2>the things that I really appreciate about Ruby on Rails

1009
00:48:35.559 --> 00:48:39.039
<v Speaker 2>early on was how easy it was to but debug

1010
00:48:39.159 --> 00:48:44.559
<v Speaker 2>things in production versus with working in like say PHP,

1011
00:48:44.920 --> 00:48:47.400
<v Speaker 2>because we had things like you could essensation into the

1012
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:50.480
<v Speaker 2>server and then run Rails console and do stuff and

1013
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:53.280
<v Speaker 2>you're like, oh, this is amazing, and like didn't feel

1014
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:55.639
<v Speaker 2>like we had that kind of functionality at the time.

1015
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:59.320
<v Speaker 2>There's tools like that now, but that stuff was just

1016
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.599
<v Speaker 2>kind of like a for my professional development growth. That

1017
00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:04.280
<v Speaker 2>was like a huge like aha, I'm like, look what

1018
00:49:04.280 --> 00:49:07.119
<v Speaker 2>we can do and like. But you also had to run,

1019
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:09.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, all these different separate processes and you're spinning

1020
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:13.840
<v Speaker 2>up delayed job things or whatever, men cash and all

1021
00:49:13.880 --> 00:49:15.400
<v Speaker 2>this stuff, and you'd have to run all these little

1022
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:17.639
<v Speaker 2>services in parallel on a server. So there's a lot

1023
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:20.480
<v Speaker 2>more things related to your rails apps that you have

1024
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:21.440
<v Speaker 2>to run as well.

1025
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:23.000
<v Speaker 3>It wasn't just like PHBD, like you.

1026
00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:25.239
<v Speaker 2>Run the thing and then you had a database or

1027
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:27.679
<v Speaker 2>something you connected to and then that was the bulk of.

1028
00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:28.840
<v Speaker 3>What you needed to worry about.

1029
00:49:29.360 --> 00:49:32.960
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I think some of the tools have gotten better,

1030
00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:36.519
<v Speaker 1>like you said, but with Kamal, I mean you just

1031
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:39.239
<v Speaker 1>you set up the vps, make sure you can have

1032
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:42.800
<v Speaker 1>to state into it, and you know, so do run

1033
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:46.239
<v Speaker 1>things as route and then you just tell it to

1034
00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:48.400
<v Speaker 1>set it up and then you tell it to deplay it.

1035
00:49:48.920 --> 00:49:54.360
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I mean, depending it Yeah, a lot of

1036
00:49:54.400 --> 00:49:56.639
<v Speaker 1>it depends on how your system set up. But what

1037
00:49:56.679 --> 00:49:58.320
<v Speaker 1>I found is the tools just keep getting better and

1038
00:49:58.360 --> 00:49:58.840
<v Speaker 1>better and better.

1039
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Comal. The only thing is it's it's Docker, and like, yeah,

1040
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.239
<v Speaker 4>it's I just find it too heavy handed for the

1041
00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:10.719
<v Speaker 4>kind of stuff I do, not not for my clients work.

1042
00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:13.920
<v Speaker 4>My client work obviously is high enough scale to warrant that,

1043
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:16.320
<v Speaker 4>but stuff I do on my own, I just find

1044
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:18.519
<v Speaker 4>like Docker to be a bit too heavy for that.

1045
00:50:18.679 --> 00:50:24.000
<v Speaker 4>So I'd quite like just a simple solution that isn't docerbase,

1046
00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:26.440
<v Speaker 4>and I'm playing around with some stuff. One thing that

1047
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:29.000
<v Speaker 4>I'll be quite interested in this year over the probably

1048
00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:31.079
<v Speaker 4>this year and next year is if the adoption of

1049
00:50:31.199 --> 00:50:34.800
<v Speaker 4>Falcon goes up at all, because that's kind of designed

1050
00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:39.480
<v Speaker 4>to be like all in one server, Like you don't

1051
00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:42.760
<v Speaker 4>need to have engine X, a caddy or something in

1052
00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:47.400
<v Speaker 4>front of it. It's it's meant to be like, uh,

1053
00:50:48.039 --> 00:50:50.800
<v Speaker 4>right in front of your application, and it's meant to

1054
00:50:50.840 --> 00:50:53.719
<v Speaker 4>be like it's meant to work as a sul termination

1055
00:50:53.880 --> 00:50:57.880
<v Speaker 4>and just work as a web server. So it should

1056
00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:01.159
<v Speaker 4>hopefully reduce the number of moving parts you need for redeployment.

1057
00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:04.480
<v Speaker 4>It would be good to see that kind of beIN

1058
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:05.800
<v Speaker 4>a little bit more traction, I think.

1059
00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:11.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Robbie, was there a section that stood out to

1060
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:12.920
<v Speaker 1>you that we haven't talked about.

1061
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:18.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, some of the things that I've always found interesting.

1062
00:51:18.400 --> 00:51:21.480
<v Speaker 2>The track is because it's just having been a part

1063
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:24.599
<v Speaker 2>of the rail's ecosystem for such a long time and

1064
00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:28.360
<v Speaker 2>is a lot of the third party services and tools

1065
00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:30.519
<v Speaker 2>that we're using. So, you know, this was the first

1066
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:32.480
<v Speaker 2>time this last year was the first time New Relic

1067
00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:36.559
<v Speaker 2>wasn't number one for performance monitoring and the rails ecosystem

1068
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:39.440
<v Speaker 2>since we started asking that question. I think back in

1069
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:43.199
<v Speaker 2>I think Data Dog took over the number one spot.

1070
00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:48.320
<v Speaker 2>Otherwise New Relic had been, you know, the and I

1071
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:50.679
<v Speaker 2>think that I don't want to I mean, I know

1072
00:51:50.679 --> 00:51:53.320
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of people that work on New Relic, but

1073
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:57.440
<v Speaker 2>they've that company is going to have been bought and

1074
00:51:57.480 --> 00:51:59.639
<v Speaker 2>sold a couple of times at this point now. But

1075
00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:01.880
<v Speaker 2>the so it's been interesting to see that kind of

1076
00:52:01.880 --> 00:52:05.400
<v Speaker 2>evolve into seeing how like Century and ap Signal have

1077
00:52:05.519 --> 00:52:07.320
<v Speaker 2>kind of like jumped up a little bit more in

1078
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.480
<v Speaker 2>the community there. And I always it's to me, it's

1079
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:12.480
<v Speaker 2>always kind of fun to watch like the big companies

1080
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:14.239
<v Speaker 2>and the small companies trying to like I don't feel

1081
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:18.039
<v Speaker 2>like that space has ever like been terribly stable for

1082
00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:20.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of companies, necessarily outside of like the people

1083
00:52:20.239 --> 00:52:21.679
<v Speaker 2>that are at the top there, and so like we

1084
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:25.119
<v Speaker 2>get aer tracking things and as well, so like I

1085
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:28.960
<v Speaker 2>think on the aeroor tracking, you know, centuries top been

1086
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:32.679
<v Speaker 2>the top of the last three times we've run the survey.

1087
00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:36.239
<v Speaker 2>But it's been interesting. For whatever reason, I've always been

1088
00:52:36.239 --> 00:52:39.400
<v Speaker 2>fascinating with those particular those topics to see what people

1089
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:41.760
<v Speaker 2>are using, and because I feel like it's really easy

1090
00:52:41.800 --> 00:52:46.559
<v Speaker 2>for teams to quite often switch and experiment the different

1091
00:52:46.599 --> 00:52:49.800
<v Speaker 2>thing we come into consulting engagements. Well, like we just

1092
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:53.280
<v Speaker 2>just actually just recently, we're working with a company doing

1093
00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:55.519
<v Speaker 2>a code at it and giving this doing some consulting

1094
00:52:55.519 --> 00:52:58.360
<v Speaker 2>with them, and we were logging into the new relic

1095
00:52:58.360 --> 00:53:00.519
<v Speaker 2>where they've been tracking their errors for a really long

1096
00:53:00.559 --> 00:53:02.719
<v Speaker 2>time and we're looking all this stuff and they're like, yeah,

1097
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:03.599
<v Speaker 2>we don't really log.

1098
00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:05.119
<v Speaker 3>In that offen and go look at the error stuff

1099
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:05.760
<v Speaker 3>that often we.

1100
00:53:05.800 --> 00:53:09.679
<v Speaker 2>Just occasionally I'm like, well, maybe a really easy thing

1101
00:53:09.679 --> 00:53:11.960
<v Speaker 2>to do is just to switch to a different platform

1102
00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:14.840
<v Speaker 2>so you have some new data, new fresh data set rather.

1103
00:53:14.719 --> 00:53:17.000
<v Speaker 3>Than just ignoring the old thing, and like you can

1104
00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:18.000
<v Speaker 3>use my U.

1105
00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:21.360
<v Speaker 2>So they got set up with like app signal like

1106
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:23.960
<v Speaker 2>in an afternoon and you know, maybe made a confute

1107
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:26.239
<v Speaker 2>a few co changes to make that work, and then

1108
00:53:26.760 --> 00:53:28.679
<v Speaker 2>it just kind of revitalized the team a little bit

1109
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:30.679
<v Speaker 2>to start paying attention to that stuff a little bit

1110
00:53:30.679 --> 00:53:33.719
<v Speaker 2>more thoroughly. And so that's always kind of a nice

1111
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:35.679
<v Speaker 2>thing to be able to know that there's other tools

1112
00:53:35.679 --> 00:53:37.280
<v Speaker 2>that you can kind of play with and maybe get

1113
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:40.440
<v Speaker 2>a different perspective or look at your data and you're

1114
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:44.119
<v Speaker 2>the activating your applications from a different perspective, and so

1115
00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:46.880
<v Speaker 2>maybe switch over to honey Badger for six months and

1116
00:53:46.960 --> 00:53:48.599
<v Speaker 2>try that for a bit and see how that maybe

1117
00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.440
<v Speaker 2>rethinks your how your team approaches this stuff. Those are

1118
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:54.400
<v Speaker 2>like usually pretty easy things that teams can do to

1119
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:57.840
<v Speaker 2>just get some new energy around something rather than being like,

1120
00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:00.400
<v Speaker 2>let's log into the thing. We don't really pay tension

1121
00:54:00.440 --> 00:54:02.000
<v Speaker 2>or I don't really like.

1122
00:54:02.119 --> 00:54:04.280
<v Speaker 3>The UI or all the upsales that they're.

1123
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Doing and not trying to pick on new relic or

1124
00:54:06.519 --> 00:54:08.719
<v Speaker 2>data Dog or whatever, or like people like yeah, data Dog,

1125
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:10.519
<v Speaker 2>they as soon as we sign up for account with them,

1126
00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:12.760
<v Speaker 2>all over. Developers start getting emails and phone calls all

1127
00:54:12.760 --> 00:54:14.679
<v Speaker 2>the time from their sales people trying to upsell, and

1128
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:16.719
<v Speaker 2>you're just like, yeah, that's going to happen with this

1129
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:21.159
<v Speaker 2>bigger company, so other things that I know interesting around

1130
00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:24.000
<v Speaker 2>just seeing things like what debugging tools people are using,

1131
00:54:24.199 --> 00:54:27.559
<v Speaker 2>because there's you know, there's new things popping up, and

1132
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:31.519
<v Speaker 2>like Ruby Ruby de bug is what sixteen percent now

1133
00:54:32.119 --> 00:54:35.440
<v Speaker 2>and you know the prize at thirty one percent, and

1134
00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:37.800
<v Speaker 2>so I think if you're just people, like a lot

1135
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:40.239
<v Speaker 2>of people just keep using the same thing that they're

1136
00:54:40.239 --> 00:54:41.800
<v Speaker 2>already used to using for a long time. So I

1137
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:43.639
<v Speaker 2>think it's sometimes it's just helpful to be aware of

1138
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:47.840
<v Speaker 2>these things counterpoint. And you know, you mentioned like the

1139
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:51.400
<v Speaker 2>Ruby versions or we would ask you know, which which

1140
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:54.639
<v Speaker 2>version or Ruby you're using, not not just like the

1141
00:54:54.920 --> 00:54:57.199
<v Speaker 2>number version, but if I're using like Matt's is Ruby

1142
00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:00.440
<v Speaker 2>versus j Ruby things like that, and let me see

1143
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:02.599
<v Speaker 2>if I try to remember what the question is, but

1144
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:08.119
<v Speaker 2>I got I'm not trying to point out unnecessarily, but

1145
00:55:08.440 --> 00:55:13.280
<v Speaker 2>we ended up because the data from from the survey

1146
00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:17.000
<v Speaker 2>the previous years that jay Ruby was so low in

1147
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:18.679
<v Speaker 2>number of counts that I'm like, I don't feel like

1148
00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:21.039
<v Speaker 2>it's important to keep is that even an option for

1149
00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:23.199
<v Speaker 2>people to check anymore? Because there's another box and let's

1150
00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:26.079
<v Speaker 2>just let people type it in and then that didn't

1151
00:55:26.119 --> 00:55:29.280
<v Speaker 2>make someone all that happy that I removed it. I'm like, well,

1152
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:32.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm not seeing people can't do that. It's just like

1153
00:55:32.159 --> 00:55:35.840
<v Speaker 2>there's this insignificant number point that I'm like, and they're well,

1154
00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:37.920
<v Speaker 2>this is like a So some people see these these

1155
00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.400
<v Speaker 2>are the types of surveys as an opportunity to highlight

1156
00:55:40.440 --> 00:55:42.360
<v Speaker 2>that there are these other tools when they're picking the

1157
00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:45.440
<v Speaker 2>survey that they could be exposed to. So I'm like,

1158
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:49.639
<v Speaker 2>I can't list every single jam, every single.

1159
00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:50.760
<v Speaker 3>Third party service.

1160
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:52.599
<v Speaker 2>It's just like we got to kind of do our

1161
00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:55.079
<v Speaker 2>best to try to encounter like what do we know,

1162
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:57.119
<v Speaker 2>because there's a lot of things about the community and

1163
00:55:57.159 --> 00:55:59.079
<v Speaker 2>the tooling that we don't even we're not even aware of.

1164
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:01.960
<v Speaker 2>So this is when we I'm usually learning about anythings,

1165
00:56:01.960 --> 00:56:04.440
<v Speaker 2>like oh, what's this falcon thing? You know I've heard

1166
00:56:04.719 --> 00:56:07.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe mentioned, but like a bunch of people are using it.

1167
00:56:07.079 --> 00:56:08.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I didn't even know anything about it. So

1168
00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:11.559
<v Speaker 2>that's always kind of like a fascinating part of the

1169
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:15.880
<v Speaker 2>surveys too. It's it's it's it's it's it's easy. It's

1170
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:17.239
<v Speaker 2>not easy to get a lot of people to felt

1171
00:56:17.239 --> 00:56:18.719
<v Speaker 2>the survey, but it's an easy way for me to

1172
00:56:18.920 --> 00:56:21.039
<v Speaker 2>learn a lot about what people are up to in

1173
00:56:21.079 --> 00:56:25.199
<v Speaker 2>the community, so kind of selfishly, yeah, I always wish

1174
00:56:25.199 --> 00:56:31.679
<v Speaker 2>there's like a Ruby toolbox for like services, you know,

1175
00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:35.199
<v Speaker 2>Oh everybody's using this or what is this? You know?

1176
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:39.119
<v Speaker 6>Uh, yeah, I don't know. I feel like that is

1177
00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:39.840
<v Speaker 6>kind of missing.

1178
00:56:40.880 --> 00:56:44.159
<v Speaker 2>It's a fair point. If anyone listening wants to create

1179
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:48.480
<v Speaker 2>a some sort of project to do that, I think

1180
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:53.760
<v Speaker 2>that would be good. But maintaining that keeping an updated

1181
00:56:53.840 --> 00:56:54.639
<v Speaker 2>this is another thing.

1182
00:56:55.119 --> 00:56:58.400
<v Speaker 1>So yeah. One thing that I picked up from the

1183
00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:02.480
<v Speaker 1>survey that I didn't know existed was in the version updates.

1184
00:57:02.920 --> 00:57:05.079
<v Speaker 1>It said, is your team using a dual boot strategy

1185
00:57:05.119 --> 00:57:07.480
<v Speaker 1>for upgrades? And I was like, wait, you could do that?

1186
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:09.079
<v Speaker 1>So I had to go google it.

1187
00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Did you learn much about about that? That said, there's

1188
00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:16.079
<v Speaker 2>a couple of really good tools for that that'll be used.

1189
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:18.559
<v Speaker 1>I found a gem that does it, and I didn't

1190
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:19.599
<v Speaker 1>get much further than that.

1191
00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:23.320
<v Speaker 6>But I'm surprised that the boogoot gem.

1192
00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:25.280
<v Speaker 1>That was from shopify someone that I found.

1193
00:57:26.679 --> 00:57:30.039
<v Speaker 5>I'm surprised that after all the conference talks about it,

1194
00:57:30.079 --> 00:57:31.320
<v Speaker 5>that hasn't gotten more adoption.

1195
00:57:33.599 --> 00:57:34.400
<v Speaker 6>It's not that hard.

1196
00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:38.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm working a project now. That we have some

1197
00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:42.559
<v Speaker 1>performance issues, that there are tools in rail seven to

1198
00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:45.599
<v Speaker 1>two that are not in Rail seven oh that we

1199
00:57:45.639 --> 00:57:47.920
<v Speaker 1>want to use, like common table expressions and the way

1200
00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:49.360
<v Speaker 1>we want to do some of the things with those.

1201
00:57:50.480 --> 00:57:53.199
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I was like, huh, well, maybe we can

1202
00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:56.719
<v Speaker 1>use this over there and see how far we get.

1203
00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:02.159
<v Speaker 2>Publish this back in right right before world So I'm

1204
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:05.480
<v Speaker 2>trying to remember the things that we're kind of like

1205
00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:10.159
<v Speaker 2>capturing my mind at the time. But the the other

1206
00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:14.360
<v Speaker 2>part was just like the just reinforcing the monoliths, I suppose,

1207
00:58:14.400 --> 00:58:17.360
<v Speaker 2>and like that the number of people that are focusing

1208
00:58:17.639 --> 00:58:20.159
<v Speaker 2>building a lot of micro service has been trending down

1209
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:22.320
<v Speaker 2>for the past I think like last three surveys, so

1210
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:23.280
<v Speaker 2>say six.

1211
00:58:23.199 --> 00:58:24.239
<v Speaker 3>Years or so.

1212
00:58:24.239 --> 00:58:26.519
<v Speaker 2>So that's been something that's been interesting to see that

1213
00:58:26.840 --> 00:58:29.639
<v Speaker 2>there are and I know that there are a number

1214
00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:32.880
<v Speaker 2>of teams just from doing consulting and talking with different

1215
00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:36.239
<v Speaker 2>companies that are consolidating a lot more stuff and trying

1216
00:58:36.280 --> 00:58:40.320
<v Speaker 2>to do more monolith Their app or at least have

1217
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:42.519
<v Speaker 2>to be a bit more hybrid than like because they're

1218
00:58:42.559 --> 00:58:46.599
<v Speaker 2>teams shrunk and it's a common pattern that like we

1219
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:50.320
<v Speaker 2>make a lot of decisions as teams assuming that especially

1220
00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:54.440
<v Speaker 2>for hired during a growth period that we just assume

1221
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:56.880
<v Speaker 2>that the team's going to continue growing. And then so

1222
00:58:56.920 --> 00:59:00.119
<v Speaker 2>how do we architect our system to support maybe a

1223
00:59:00.159 --> 00:59:03.320
<v Speaker 2>one day larger team. And we don't often make a

1224
00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:05.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of technical decisions with the assumption that we're going

1225
00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:06.920
<v Speaker 2>to be a smaller.

1226
00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:10.039
<v Speaker 3>Team in the future. And maybe that's actually an ideal

1227
00:59:10.159 --> 00:59:12.199
<v Speaker 3>state for that team is to be smaller.

1228
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:15.199
<v Speaker 2>So how do you weigh kind of weigh those two

1229
00:59:15.199 --> 00:59:17.360
<v Speaker 2>things up, Like, we don't we may not need the

1230
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:19.639
<v Speaker 2>team we have today in two years to support this thing,

1231
00:59:19.800 --> 00:59:23.519
<v Speaker 2>and that's maybe ideal. Whether the leadership is talking about

1232
00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:26.320
<v Speaker 2>that out a lot or not, that's maybe another issue,

1233
00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:29.360
<v Speaker 2>but that is like a thing. And so like, I

1234
00:59:29.400 --> 00:59:31.079
<v Speaker 2>know a lot of like really really small teams. I'm

1235
00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:32.960
<v Speaker 2>talking like two or three people that are working on

1236
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:35.599
<v Speaker 2>software projects that I've got like twenty five micro services

1237
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:38.719
<v Speaker 2>and you're just like, I'm like, this doesn't seem fun.

1238
00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:42.639
<v Speaker 2>How many rails upgrades are you doing? And like, okay,

1239
00:59:43.639 --> 00:59:45.599
<v Speaker 2>well we did this when we were ten people. I'm

1240
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:47.599
<v Speaker 2>like all right, and then and like and most those

1241
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:50.159
<v Speaker 2>people aren't even here anymore. So you're just like, okay,

1242
00:59:50.199 --> 00:59:53.599
<v Speaker 2>well this is a fun thing to kind of re

1243
00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:56.880
<v Speaker 2>reconfigure and rethink about how you reframe this stuff, because

1244
00:59:56.920 --> 00:59:59.320
<v Speaker 2>like we had to make a change, and we now

1245
00:59:59.360 --> 01:00:01.480
<v Speaker 2>we got to make a change in three different repositories.

1246
01:00:01.599 --> 01:00:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Figure out the deployment process, scheduling because like these are

1247
01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:09.199
<v Speaker 2>not this this, this doesn't feel super efficient. And it's

1248
01:00:09.199 --> 01:00:11.079
<v Speaker 2>some very similar to the front end framework type of

1249
01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:14.000
<v Speaker 2>issue as well. But micro services and the monolith thing,

1250
01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:17.960
<v Speaker 2>I think it's so monolists are on the rise in

1251
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:19.840
<v Speaker 2>terms of people trying to keep it keep it in

1252
01:00:20.159 --> 01:00:24.800
<v Speaker 2>like one repo as much as possible unless you really

1253
01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:26.480
<v Speaker 2>really need to start putting some stuff out.

1254
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:30.960
<v Speaker 5>I'm curious how much of that is thanks to pop packwork,

1255
01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:34.599
<v Speaker 5>because that seems to be a common pattern. Is like

1256
01:00:35.599 --> 01:00:39.840
<v Speaker 5>making micro services in your monolith with packwork, which seems

1257
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:44.039
<v Speaker 5>to like solve kind of both problems that people face. Uh,

1258
01:00:44.119 --> 01:00:46.039
<v Speaker 5>and the people that want to push for micro services

1259
01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:48.400
<v Speaker 5>feel at ease because it kind of feels like a

1260
01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:52.400
<v Speaker 5>micro service in a way. I don't know what you're

1261
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:54.119
<v Speaker 5>what your thoughts are on that.

1262
01:00:54.519 --> 01:00:57.639
<v Speaker 2>I know that I Aleen gave a talk at Reil's

1263
01:00:57.639 --> 01:01:01.639
<v Speaker 2>Word about that, and it was kind of a little

1264
01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:04.599
<v Speaker 2>bit critical of doing a lot of that because there's

1265
01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:10.639
<v Speaker 2>very because often the boundaries are not so clearly defined

1266
01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:13.960
<v Speaker 2>and people are like stuff is overreaching all the time. Anyways,

1267
01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:17.039
<v Speaker 2>I don't know that she felt like she had like

1268
01:01:17.079 --> 01:01:20.840
<v Speaker 2>a good way of solving that necessarily, but like I

1269
01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:22.480
<v Speaker 2>think her perspective is like we might.

1270
01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:24.199
<v Speaker 3>Have over we're still over.

1271
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:29.039
<v Speaker 2>Separating in a way trying to optimize, and it's causing

1272
01:01:29.079 --> 01:01:31.440
<v Speaker 2>other sorts of issues with like ownership within projects and

1273
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:33.920
<v Speaker 2>feeling like how did how did just teams.

1274
01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:36.079
<v Speaker 3>Work together own projects? Is I think another part of it.

1275
01:01:36.159 --> 01:01:38.599
<v Speaker 2>So there's the human part of that, and then there's

1276
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:41.559
<v Speaker 2>the technical approaches to solving some of that stuff and

1277
01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:43.239
<v Speaker 2>like trying to weigh that up when the teams are

1278
01:01:43.239 --> 01:01:48.159
<v Speaker 2>maybe not always going to match the technical separation of

1279
01:01:48.199 --> 01:01:51.119
<v Speaker 2>those concerns and so I know, it's it's it's it's

1280
01:01:51.159 --> 01:01:54.320
<v Speaker 2>it's tricky. So but yeah, packwork is definitely an option

1281
01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:56.760
<v Speaker 2>there for kind of approaching them.

1282
01:01:58.840 --> 01:01:59.079
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

1283
01:02:00.559 --> 01:02:03.679
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I like to try ways from uh just like

1284
01:02:03.760 --> 01:02:07.920
<v Speaker 5>the open ended comments was, uh, you know, move away

1285
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:09.559
<v Speaker 5>from over engineering.

1286
01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:14.599
<v Speaker 2>Things optimize for a smaller team, And I think even

1287
01:02:14.599 --> 01:02:16.920
<v Speaker 2>if it's the same size team, like if you can

1288
01:02:16.960 --> 01:02:22.360
<v Speaker 2>make this your software project easier for when half of

1289
01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:26.360
<v Speaker 2>your team is on vacation to maintain, Like, wouldn't that

1290
01:02:26.400 --> 01:02:28.960
<v Speaker 2>be a good thing? Wouldn't that feel better? I just

1291
01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:32.320
<v Speaker 2>think there's probably a lot of things that we could

1292
01:02:32.320 --> 01:02:35.320
<v Speaker 2>be asked for, so like like like especially with like deployments,

1293
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:36.840
<v Speaker 2>is you brought that up as an interesting thing, like

1294
01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:39.519
<v Speaker 2>there was a time when, like we've I think there's

1295
01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:41.239
<v Speaker 2>a lot of benefits. And one of the interesting things

1296
01:02:41.239 --> 01:02:44.800
<v Speaker 2>about why Camal's resonating with some teams or some small

1297
01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:48.079
<v Speaker 2>teams in particular, is that it feels like it's giving

1298
01:02:48.199 --> 01:02:51.679
<v Speaker 2>back some control to the developers a little bit because

1299
01:02:51.719 --> 01:02:54.880
<v Speaker 2>I think within this era where there's a lot of

1300
01:02:54.920 --> 01:03:00.280
<v Speaker 2>emphasis on you know, DevOps type roles and people, there's

1301
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:03.400
<v Speaker 2>some specialization that came about, you know again, and so

1302
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:07.159
<v Speaker 2>we've this was a very similar pre you know, go

1303
01:03:07.239 --> 01:03:07.519
<v Speaker 2>back to.

1304
01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:08.440
<v Speaker 3>The early aughts.

1305
01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:11.360
<v Speaker 2>We had a lot of DBAs you know, in our

1306
01:03:11.400 --> 01:03:14.400
<v Speaker 2>in our teams, someone that would manage the database and

1307
01:03:14.440 --> 01:03:18.280
<v Speaker 2>be the guardian and the gatekeeper for adding new columns

1308
01:03:18.400 --> 01:03:21.960
<v Speaker 2>your table, adding new views or soot procedures, and the may'd

1309
01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:23.480
<v Speaker 2>be the ones who managed that. And we were able

1310
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:25.239
<v Speaker 2>to kind of take some of that and like, no,

1311
01:03:25.360 --> 01:03:27.639
<v Speaker 2>we can do this ourselves. We can we can manage this.

1312
01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:31.639
<v Speaker 2>And then I think over the last decade or more,

1313
01:03:31.800 --> 01:03:36.360
<v Speaker 2>we the infrastructure has got more complicated as we've moved

1314
01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:37.800
<v Speaker 2>to the cloud, and we can do all this stuff.

1315
01:03:37.800 --> 01:03:38.920
<v Speaker 2>And so we have a lot of a lot of

1316
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:41.000
<v Speaker 2>really large teams really need to do with a lot

1317
01:03:41.000 --> 01:03:42.920
<v Speaker 2>of scaling things. A lot of small teams have some

1318
01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.360
<v Speaker 2>scaling issues, but they would then adopt a lot of

1319
01:03:45.400 --> 01:03:48.480
<v Speaker 2>the same approaches that large teams are talking about because

1320
01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and so a lot of developers are actually so I

1321
01:03:51.880 --> 01:03:53.559
<v Speaker 2>think back to the question about is it harder or not?

1322
01:03:53.719 --> 01:03:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Is like some people work in environments like and actually

1323
01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:58.719
<v Speaker 2>not responsible for anything but pushing to a branch and

1324
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:01.519
<v Speaker 2>then some magic happens. But ask me to change that.

1325
01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:04.199
<v Speaker 2>I don't even know where to start. What is this

1326
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:06.199
<v Speaker 2>terrorform stuff, this cooper net?

1327
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:07.519
<v Speaker 3>What is this like?

1328
01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:09.800
<v Speaker 2>How does this stuff work? I don't have time for that.

1329
01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:11.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to focus on rails and I think that's

1330
01:04:12.039 --> 01:04:14.960
<v Speaker 2>okay in some teams. But it's been a challenge for

1331
01:04:15.400 --> 01:04:18.079
<v Speaker 2>a lot of developers to feel like I can make

1332
01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:20.360
<v Speaker 2>changes or I feel it feels very brittle at times

1333
01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:22.679
<v Speaker 2>because there's some magic stuff that's happening over here, and

1334
01:04:22.719 --> 01:04:23.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't.

1335
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:24.960
<v Speaker 3>Want to break the infrastructure.

1336
01:04:25.119 --> 01:04:30.199
<v Speaker 2>So infrastructure became a challenge and kind of like just

1337
01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:31.440
<v Speaker 2>to kind of come back to this is just so

1338
01:04:32.199 --> 01:04:34.039
<v Speaker 2>those a lot of teams don't feel like they can

1339
01:04:34.039 --> 01:04:36.119
<v Speaker 2>make those changes. So teams are a lot bigger more

1340
01:04:36.159 --> 01:04:38.639
<v Speaker 2>because there's just people that are specializing in certain things.

1341
01:04:38.679 --> 01:04:39.199
<v Speaker 3>And you got that.

1342
01:04:39.320 --> 01:04:41.239
<v Speaker 2>Now you have that weak point of like what happens

1343
01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:45.079
<v Speaker 2>if that infrastructure person leaves or you need to keep

1344
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:47.320
<v Speaker 2>them around, and maybe they're not the best person to

1345
01:04:47.320 --> 01:04:49.960
<v Speaker 2>be part of your team. And so I think there's

1346
01:04:50.000 --> 01:04:51.559
<v Speaker 2>like a little bit of things like comal kind of

1347
01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:54.400
<v Speaker 2>like pulling that back a little bit, like we don't

1348
01:04:54.679 --> 01:04:58.199
<v Speaker 2>need all that stuff for a lot of software projects.

1349
01:04:58.519 --> 01:05:00.760
<v Speaker 2>We can do that, but does every project need to

1350
01:05:00.760 --> 01:05:03.599
<v Speaker 2>be deploying every single commit.

1351
01:05:05.760 --> 01:05:10.000
<v Speaker 3>Automatically? Like that's maybe I don't know.

1352
01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:12.719
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe you could just wait till someone runs in

1353
01:05:12.719 --> 01:05:15.320
<v Speaker 2>the command once a day and that would be fine.

1354
01:05:16.480 --> 01:05:19.079
<v Speaker 2>But there's gotta be some trade offs there because you're

1355
01:05:19.079 --> 01:05:21.079
<v Speaker 2>spending a lot of money on infrastructure stuff and all

1356
01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:23.920
<v Speaker 2>of those get up actions running or whatever you're using

1357
01:05:23.920 --> 01:05:26.079
<v Speaker 2>for all that stuff. But that is costing your company

1358
01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:29.480
<v Speaker 2>money to do that stuff and it's not free, so

1359
01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:32.599
<v Speaker 2>figure out how to balance that.

1360
01:05:33.840 --> 01:05:36.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, Well we're kind of getting to that

1361
01:05:36.519 --> 01:05:38.840
<v Speaker 1>point in time where we go to picks. Before we

1362
01:05:38.920 --> 01:05:41.599
<v Speaker 1>do that, though, Robbie, if people want to connect with

1363
01:05:41.639 --> 01:05:44.440
<v Speaker 1>you online, or they're thinking maybe they have a project

1364
01:05:44.440 --> 01:05:47.199
<v Speaker 1>where they need help from someone like Brent planet ar Gone,

1365
01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:49.360
<v Speaker 1>or they want to listen to the maintainable podcasts, where

1366
01:05:49.400 --> 01:05:50.519
<v Speaker 1>do they find any of that stuff?

1367
01:05:51.000 --> 01:05:51.760
<v Speaker 3>Search for it?

1368
01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:53.559
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know how to do this stuff.

1369
01:05:54.199 --> 01:05:54.440
<v Speaker 3>Links.

1370
01:05:54.639 --> 01:05:56.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there will be some links in the show

1371
01:05:56.159 --> 01:06:00.000
<v Speaker 2>noteswer I'm Robbie, Robbie Russell or you can find me.

1372
01:06:01.199 --> 01:06:04.159
<v Speaker 1>All right, good deal. Well let's uh let's do some picks.

1373
01:06:04.679 --> 01:06:06.719
<v Speaker 1>Are you sh you want to start us off picks?

1374
01:06:07.079 --> 01:06:11.119
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's uh. So she got back from New Zealand,

1375
01:06:11.199 --> 01:06:14.039
<v Speaker 4>so I'm just gonna New Zealand as a country. That's

1376
01:06:14.039 --> 01:06:17.639
<v Speaker 4>gonna be one of my picks. It's just them, It's

1377
01:06:17.880 --> 01:06:20.079
<v Speaker 4>it's probably our favorite place to go on holiday. I

1378
01:06:20.119 --> 01:06:23.880
<v Speaker 4>was there for like six weeks and yeah, the place

1379
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:24.679
<v Speaker 4>feels fictional.

1380
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Man.

1381
01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:27.639
<v Speaker 4>I went did also, I went to hobbiton so I

1382
01:06:27.679 --> 01:06:33.199
<v Speaker 4>got got this thing from from from hobbiton, which is

1383
01:06:33.239 --> 01:06:35.719
<v Speaker 4>a I don't really do bucket list, but if I

1384
01:06:35.719 --> 01:06:37.639
<v Speaker 4>had a bucket list, I would probably be on there.

1385
01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:41.880
<v Speaker 4>Uh yeah. It was also nice to just get out

1386
01:06:41.880 --> 01:06:45.400
<v Speaker 4>of the British winter for a bit. But near New

1387
01:06:45.480 --> 01:06:48.199
<v Speaker 4>Zealand as a country is one of my picks. And

1388
01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:52.000
<v Speaker 4>then I got back and I binged a new TV

1389
01:06:52.079 --> 01:06:54.480
<v Speaker 4>show because that's what I do. It's called A Man

1390
01:06:54.519 --> 01:06:58.519
<v Speaker 4>on the Inside starring Ted Dunce and it's Michael Shaw's

1391
01:06:58.840 --> 01:07:01.880
<v Speaker 4>new comedy known for other shows like Parks and Rack

1392
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:04.800
<v Speaker 4>Brooklyn nine nine in the Good Place. So his new

1393
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:07.480
<v Speaker 4>shows as like, what's only eight episodes to spend an

1394
01:07:07.519 --> 01:07:11.159
<v Speaker 4>evening and binge the whole thing. Very funny, very enjoyable.

1395
01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:16.400
<v Speaker 4>Recommend that. And I'll finish off with that technical pick,

1396
01:07:16.480 --> 01:07:22.679
<v Speaker 4>which is the acinc container gem by Samuel Williams. I

1397
01:07:22.719 --> 01:07:24.320
<v Speaker 4>have the chance to hang out with him while I

1398
01:07:24.360 --> 01:07:27.360
<v Speaker 4>was in New Zealand, and one of the things we

1399
01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:31.199
<v Speaker 4>kind of played around with was the acink container gem,

1400
01:07:31.280 --> 01:07:37.079
<v Speaker 4>which it's kind of just a way to like orchestrate

1401
01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:41.320
<v Speaker 4>roovy processes. So instead of like packaging everything after the

1402
01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:46.480
<v Speaker 4>darker container, you just have any acinc container manage all

1403
01:07:46.519 --> 01:07:50.079
<v Speaker 4>your different processes, and it kind of deals with restarting

1404
01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:53.119
<v Speaker 4>and blue green deployers and all that kind of stuff,

1405
01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:55.199
<v Speaker 4>and kind of playing around with it to see if

1406
01:07:55.239 --> 01:07:58.639
<v Speaker 4>I can get it to work nicely with just generic

1407
01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:02.039
<v Speaker 4>rails up with apps be mine stuff. But yeah, I

1408
01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:06.280
<v Speaker 4>think it's a very underrated gem and they I highly

1409
01:08:06.280 --> 01:08:09.559
<v Speaker 4>recommend checking it out. So yeah, those are my three

1410
01:08:09.599 --> 01:08:10.400
<v Speaker 4>picks for today.

1411
01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:14.199
<v Speaker 1>Awesome, Valentino, what are your picks?

1412
01:08:14.559 --> 01:08:20.039
<v Speaker 5>I just got done taking this incredible Ruby AI engineering

1413
01:08:20.079 --> 01:08:24.039
<v Speaker 5>training and planning workshop with Max Irwin and Landing Gray.

1414
01:08:24.880 --> 01:08:26.039
<v Speaker 6>I highly recommend it.

1415
01:08:26.800 --> 01:08:29.000
<v Speaker 5>We got a bunch of folks at doximity to attend

1416
01:08:29.000 --> 01:08:32.640
<v Speaker 5>it and just like filled so many knowledge gaps and

1417
01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:37.640
<v Speaker 5>just learned a ton and I'm looking forward to applying

1418
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:42.319
<v Speaker 5>just like, yeah, a massive amount of information there.

1419
01:08:43.560 --> 01:08:44.960
<v Speaker 6>So definitely check that out.

1420
01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:50.199
<v Speaker 5>I hope they continue doing it, because yeah, I was

1421
01:08:50.239 --> 01:08:53.279
<v Speaker 5>just incredibly well put together, and I've never used Jupiter

1422
01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:56.960
<v Speaker 5>notebooks with Ruby before, so that was very interesting and

1423
01:08:57.520 --> 01:08:58.039
<v Speaker 5>kind of fun.

1424
01:08:58.359 --> 01:09:02.239
<v Speaker 6>Uh So uh that that on its own kind of

1425
01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:02.640
<v Speaker 6>worth it.

1426
01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:05.720
<v Speaker 3>My My other.

1427
01:09:05.560 --> 01:09:11.000
<v Speaker 5>Pick is I I just pre ordered this giant three

1428
01:09:11.079 --> 01:09:16.840
<v Speaker 5>D printer from elagu. It's uh it's called orange Storm

1429
01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:20.439
<v Speaker 5>Giga and you can print like furniture size things with it.

1430
01:09:20.720 --> 01:09:23.720
<v Speaker 6>So I'm I'm pretty excited to Uh.

1431
01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:24.760
<v Speaker 1>You meant giant.

1432
01:09:24.840 --> 01:09:30.039
<v Speaker 6>Wow, I went giant is massive. Yeah, it's the size

1433
01:09:30.079 --> 01:09:34.840
<v Speaker 6>of a person. Uh. And it's honestly not that expensive

1434
01:09:35.359 --> 01:09:36.039
<v Speaker 6>for what it is.

1435
01:09:36.439 --> 01:09:41.720
<v Speaker 5>Uh And so uh I recommend at least looking at it.

1436
01:09:41.720 --> 01:09:46.560
<v Speaker 5>It's pretty pretty incredible what you can do these days.

1437
01:09:47.800 --> 01:09:50.640
<v Speaker 1>Nice your friends come over and ask you what you

1438
01:09:50.720 --> 01:09:55.399
<v Speaker 1>do in your phone booth. All right, I've got a

1439
01:09:55.399 --> 01:10:00.159
<v Speaker 1>few picks here, so I always do a boarding and

1440
01:10:00.199 --> 01:10:04.479
<v Speaker 1>pick first. And so the game I'm gonna pick this

1441
01:10:04.520 --> 01:10:10.720
<v Speaker 1>time is Machi Koro two. I have picked Machi Koro

1442
01:10:10.880 --> 01:10:16.239
<v Speaker 1>in the past. Machi Koro two is you basically played

1443
01:10:16.279 --> 01:10:19.399
<v Speaker 1>by the same rules as Machi Koro. The difference is

1444
01:10:19.399 --> 01:10:24.560
<v Speaker 1>is that you have instead of the different kinds of

1445
01:10:24.560 --> 01:10:26.720
<v Speaker 1>buildings just being all in their stacks and you can

1446
01:10:26.760 --> 01:10:30.199
<v Speaker 1>just buy whatever's out there, you actually flip cards to

1447
01:10:31.279 --> 01:10:35.199
<v Speaker 1>expose the different types of the different buildings. And so,

1448
01:10:35.560 --> 01:10:37.640
<v Speaker 1>just to give a quick rundown on how the game works,

1449
01:10:38.239 --> 01:10:41.920
<v Speaker 1>you buy buildings, you roll the dice. If you roll at

1450
01:10:41.960 --> 01:10:43.880
<v Speaker 1>dice on a card that you have in front of

1451
01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:47.319
<v Speaker 1>you that's green or blue, then you get then you

1452
01:10:47.359 --> 01:10:50.439
<v Speaker 1>get money. If anyone else has a red card with

1453
01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:52.359
<v Speaker 1>that number on it, then you have to pay them money.

1454
01:10:53.479 --> 01:10:57.399
<v Speaker 1>And the green cards on other people's turns you also

1455
01:10:57.399 --> 01:11:00.960
<v Speaker 1>get paid for. So that I mean that that's more

1456
01:11:01.039 --> 01:11:03.039
<v Speaker 1>or less it you're trying. The way you win is

1457
01:11:03.079 --> 01:11:07.920
<v Speaker 1>you build three No, you build four landmarks in Machi Koro.

1458
01:11:08.479 --> 01:11:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Everybody has the same landmarks in Mahi Koro two. One

1459
01:11:11.720 --> 01:11:13.920
<v Speaker 1>of the piles that you're flipping cards out of to

1460
01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:18.960
<v Speaker 1>expose which landmark you can build or is the landmarks,

1461
01:11:18.960 --> 01:11:21.880
<v Speaker 1>and then the others are the different building types based

1462
01:11:21.880 --> 01:11:25.279
<v Speaker 1>on costs or based on the number year role. So

1463
01:11:25.359 --> 01:11:29.600
<v Speaker 1>one through six and then seven through twelve. I mean

1464
01:11:29.600 --> 01:11:33.199
<v Speaker 1>that's it. You just go until somebody's built three landmarks

1465
01:11:33.239 --> 01:11:38.000
<v Speaker 1>in this game and you're done. And it takes forty

1466
01:11:38.039 --> 01:11:42.000
<v Speaker 1>five minutes maybe to play a full game. It's relatively simple.

1467
01:11:43.319 --> 01:11:47.680
<v Speaker 1>I think it's rated ten plus, and I think the

1468
01:11:47.800 --> 01:11:50.119
<v Speaker 1>kids younger than that, not a ton younger, but younger

1469
01:11:50.119 --> 01:11:52.239
<v Speaker 1>than that could probably play it. My nine year old

1470
01:11:52.239 --> 01:11:57.960
<v Speaker 1>could probably play it just fine. It let's see has

1471
01:11:58.000 --> 01:12:01.159
<v Speaker 1>a board game weight on board game Geek of one

1472
01:12:01.159 --> 01:12:07.920
<v Speaker 1>point four eight, So you know, Casual Gamer a little

1473
01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:10.479
<v Speaker 1>less complicated than some of the other games out there.

1474
01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:14.319
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, I just we had a good time playing it,

1475
01:12:14.359 --> 01:12:17.039
<v Speaker 1>so got it for Christmas. So I'm gonna pick that.

1476
01:12:17.239 --> 01:12:25.560
<v Speaker 1>And then I've been I started the Stormlight Archive series

1477
01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:28.399
<v Speaker 1>by Brandon Sanderson again and so I'm enjoying those, so

1478
01:12:28.399 --> 01:12:36.279
<v Speaker 1>I'll pick those, and I'm trying to grab a link

1479
01:12:36.359 --> 01:12:42.399
<v Speaker 1>for those. I think that's basically all I've got for

1480
01:12:42.479 --> 01:12:45.960
<v Speaker 1>picks this time around. I started playing with open Router.

1481
01:12:46.039 --> 01:12:49.159
<v Speaker 1>I'll guess I'll pick them too. There's a gem for that.

1482
01:12:49.199 --> 01:12:53.840
<v Speaker 1>It's written by Obi Fernandez, and it lets you use

1483
01:12:53.880 --> 01:12:55.920
<v Speaker 1>the different AI l ll ms and things like that

1484
01:12:55.960 --> 01:12:58.319
<v Speaker 1>for some of the stuff you're doing. It's it's what

1485
01:12:58.359 --> 01:13:01.520
<v Speaker 1>he recommends you use in his book about the AI development.

1486
01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:06.199
<v Speaker 1>So anyway, check out open Router and the open Router.

1487
01:13:06.319 --> 01:13:08.119
<v Speaker 1>Jim and Robbie, do you have some stuff you want

1488
01:13:08.159 --> 01:13:08.960
<v Speaker 1>to shout out about?

1489
01:13:09.319 --> 01:13:11.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's see a couple of things that come to

1490
01:13:12.079 --> 01:13:15.079
<v Speaker 2>come to mind. Is a quick shout out to Joe

1491
01:13:15.119 --> 01:13:18.800
<v Speaker 2>Mazzati for releasing hot Wire Native this last week. It's

1492
01:13:18.840 --> 01:13:21.520
<v Speaker 2>out on beta now, So if that's something you're interested

1493
01:13:21.520 --> 01:13:24.119
<v Speaker 2>in him and I are going to grab coffee next week.

1494
01:13:24.159 --> 01:13:25.840
<v Speaker 2>So we live in the same town, so we can

1495
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:28.079
<v Speaker 2>see each other every once in a while. That's always

1496
01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:31.079
<v Speaker 2>fun to catch up with him. And then also i've

1497
01:13:31.079 --> 01:13:33.760
<v Speaker 2>been real quick. We're gonna have Joe on in a

1498
01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:36.319
<v Speaker 2>few weeks to talk about Yeah, in a few weeks

1499
01:13:36.319 --> 01:13:41.159
<v Speaker 2>to talk about his book and the stuff he did wonderful. Also,

1500
01:13:41.319 --> 01:13:44.159
<v Speaker 2>I've been a one of the things you mentioned talking

1501
01:13:44.199 --> 01:13:47.640
<v Speaker 2>about Oma Zeshell. Wild thing about being part of that

1502
01:13:48.319 --> 01:13:51.079
<v Speaker 2>CLI environment is that I get approached by a lot

1503
01:13:51.119 --> 01:13:55.520
<v Speaker 2>of people that are building new terminal emulators all the time, like,

1504
01:13:55.640 --> 01:13:59.239
<v Speaker 2>so usually get to be get early access to tools

1505
01:13:59.279 --> 01:14:01.600
<v Speaker 2>and get to be early testers for things. So I've

1506
01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:03.880
<v Speaker 2>been using a thing called Ghosty for I don't know,

1507
01:14:03.880 --> 01:14:06.039
<v Speaker 2>maybe nine months off and on, and so that got

1508
01:14:06.039 --> 01:14:07.840
<v Speaker 2>released a couple of weeks ago, and that's why I

1509
01:14:08.399 --> 01:14:12.279
<v Speaker 2>was released by Mitchell Hashimoto. And it's pretty slick, and

1510
01:14:12.319 --> 01:14:14.199
<v Speaker 2>I think there's gonna be a lot of fun innovation

1511
01:14:14.479 --> 01:14:17.319
<v Speaker 2>on the our criminal emulators in the next few years,

1512
01:14:17.359 --> 01:14:21.359
<v Speaker 2>so that'll be kind of exciting non tech related stuff

1513
01:14:21.640 --> 01:14:24.239
<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to think of. It's like coming out of

1514
01:14:24.239 --> 01:14:27.880
<v Speaker 2>the holiday season, but I recently watched the Penguin series

1515
01:14:28.039 --> 01:14:31.560
<v Speaker 2>on HBO Max. I am not a comic, but personally

1516
01:14:31.560 --> 01:14:32.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't go on my way. I watched like the

1517
01:14:32.880 --> 01:14:34.520
<v Speaker 2>Batman movies every once and a while and stuff like that,

1518
01:14:34.560 --> 01:14:36.640
<v Speaker 2>but I wasn't sure if I'd liked this type of thing.

1519
01:14:37.439 --> 01:14:39.600
<v Speaker 3>I loved it.

1520
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:43.279
<v Speaker 2>It was such a good I really really enjoyed that

1521
01:14:43.279 --> 01:14:47.199
<v Speaker 2>that series. And yeah, I would just say that that

1522
01:14:47.239 --> 01:14:50.279
<v Speaker 2>was good. And then also one of my favorite bands,

1523
01:14:50.319 --> 01:14:53.279
<v Speaker 2>Magwife from Scotland has a couple of new singles out

1524
01:14:53.319 --> 01:14:55.119
<v Speaker 2>and a new album coming out and they're a huge

1525
01:14:55.119 --> 01:14:58.199
<v Speaker 2>influence on my band and my my own music. Its influence,

1526
01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:01.039
<v Speaker 2>so check out the I had another new song called

1527
01:15:01.079 --> 01:15:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I think it was called Fanzine Made of Flesh or

1528
01:15:04.600 --> 01:15:06.159
<v Speaker 2>something as the name of the new song that came

1529
01:15:06.159 --> 01:15:09.039
<v Speaker 2>out this last week. That that's pretty good. So I'm

1530
01:15:09.039 --> 01:15:11.239
<v Speaker 2>pretty pretty excited to get to see them and again

1531
01:15:11.279 --> 01:15:12.319
<v Speaker 2>when they come on tour soon.

1532
01:15:12.439 --> 01:15:16.399
<v Speaker 3>So there's those are my picks, all right?

1533
01:15:16.399 --> 01:15:20.000
<v Speaker 1>Good deal? Well, thanks for coming. This was fascinating conversation

1534
01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:22.720
<v Speaker 1>and it's always good to catch up.

1535
01:15:22.920 --> 01:15:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Likewise, nice to meet too, Valentino. I uish and

1536
01:15:26.159 --> 01:15:29.119
<v Speaker 2>thanks for having me and talk to you again some

1537
01:15:29.079 --> 01:15:31.920
<v Speaker 2>about the point in the future. I hope