Speaker 1: What is up, fellow Sikos. I am Dan Favalley, joined
once again by the hashtag returning certified fantabulous mister Grant.
Hugh's back from vacation where I believe that he leapt
over the mouth of a volcano in Hawaii is what
I was. Multiple sources have told me. So we're excited
that he survived and were able to come back and podcast.
You all know, I've mentioned it like two or three times.
Brian to Pork has been great. All our guests are
always great. I have missed Grant terribly and I think
I actually only recorded two episodes without him, and so
I missed him anyway, Grant, how the heck are you doing? Man?
Speaker 2: Just happy to be here, happy to see your smiling face,
happy to see that we wore matching color new Sicico
Mode shirts today, different designs. It's like we planned it,
but we didn't. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. I'm
happy to speak with you, and I'm happy to repurpose
a topic that we've already prepared for a podcast because
it's a light lift, but it's a fun topic and
I'm looking forward to that too.
Speaker 1: And it's sort of and by the way good plug.
Go buy our merch. If you want to support the show,
go buy our merch. The storelink is in the podcast
and YouTube description. Grant has on the Proud Cicco with
a six base design on the back. I have the
Siico Mode shirt. I'm gonna have to order more. I
keep wearing the same like one or two things, and
people are gonna think they're a good dupe laundry. I'm
waiting for those in the comments, so yes, support the show,
Go buy our merch. We're gonna be talking about and
this sort of will hold us over until Grant and
I get to our over unders we're gonna put out.
It will be a two part thing of will every
team in the NBA be better or worse relative to
just how many games they won last year? So we're
not getting into over unders or even win predictions. We're
looking at last year's number. And we know p gris
isn't linear, but for the purposes of this podcast, Grant
program progress must be binary. You're either you're either better
or you're worse, and so we will as I think
is our Do you have any idea why this is that?
We just whenever we break up these Conference podcasts that
we always just do the Western Conference first.
Speaker 2: Uh, West coast bias, I guess for me, I don't know,
am I am? I like incepting you to ask you though,
I just like that's the one that I have pulled
up first, and.
Speaker 1: I live on the East coast.
Speaker 2: Well, I was. We didn't discuss how what order we
were going to do these in, but I think as
I recall, I have all the West teams right and
you have all the East teams that did the writeups
for is that how it went right? Okay? Yeah, no,
I don't know. I definitely like I think it is
just by virtue of like you know, growing up in California,
I saw Western Conference teams more than the East. Just
feels like a slight remove for me, like even the
big time East teams are just like, well that's an
I don't know what it is. It's kind of like, uh,
it works that way for me. Or baseball too, just
because I grew up a Giants fan, and National League
teams are just like I know, those teams and the
American League, which is stupid because like it's geographically split,
it makes less sense than East and West and basketball.
But I don't know. That's so, do you have the
same feeling about Eastern Conference teams since you grew up
on the other side of the country.
Speaker 1: Uh No, I don't know. If it's just because the
hours I've kept, because of what we do, and like
maybe because by the time I'm wrapping up a lot
of the work I'm doing, like the West Coast games
are starting, and those are the ones that I predominantly
don't have to go back and rewatch or watch film
on because my attention is more locked in. And it's
also just the West has been for decades better, right,
nothing some than the East. Also, I posit that you
have there's like you are a Californian at heart, you
just don't know it.
Speaker 2: I think. I think maybe that's what it.
Speaker 1: Is I have. I look, San Diego is one of
my favorite places in the world, and so if I
could convince my wife to move out there, and it
also wasn't crazy, although Long Island's not exactly cheap either.
In San Diego, that might be.
Speaker 2: The farthest place in the lower forty eight States that
you could move from where you currently live. Like in
terms of like it's pretty there's not a lot of
more distances.
Speaker 1: Where I currently live isn't special aside from it being
wildly expensive. And I still to this day, after all
these years living here basically my entire life, have no
idea what the draw is and why it's like the
Hampton's and like an hour and a half train ride
from the city, and so it's just costs a shit
ton to live here I have. I have no idea,
but I don't understand. Look, I'm sure there are very
nice people that live here, including myself my wife, But
Long Island, New York. Is anyone listening from Long Island,
New York you know if you're offended by this. I
don't like the news to me, like it's a running joke,
like about like much of a specifically Stuffolk County too.
It's just like they make fun of Roan kan kama
Is sort of the train line, and that's where I
actually grew up. So I don't I don't know why
it's so expensive here. It just is.
Speaker 2: There's some you guys have some wild to ask names
for places in cities out there, why, well, like Raconcoma
is I don't.
Speaker 1: Know, maybe I okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not going to try again. I'm like, I
just I don't know where do all those come from?
This is this is now a like etymology podcast. I'm
asking you where the words come from that describe your towns.
Speaker 1: I think it's cute that you think I care enough
to know the benefits of these of these names. I
do think that they are rooted in some sort of
Native American heritage, but I wouldn't know that for sure.
There is a movie coming out though about Lake Ronkonkoma,
because there's a legend about star cross lovers basically, and
their families didn't want them. It's like a Romeo and
Juliet type thing, and they either took their own life
or the the woman only took hers and so and
she drowned in the lake. And so the legend has
been that there's no bottom to the lake and that
she claims one drowning every year. And there's been like
one hundred and sixty reported and confirmed drownings in Lake
Ronkonkoma since the eighteen hundre. So you've got like a
movie coming out about it.
Speaker 2: Is it like the same day, Like someone drowns on
the same day every year because just don't go to
the lake that day. It seems like a pretty easy fit.
Speaker 1: Just don't. First of all, the lake is disgusting. Just
don't swim in the lake at all. Yeah, there's there's
a cans and sludge in there, Like I don't. It's
even just like, oh, you're so close to the Hampton's
here and it's like the water is brown? People, What
do we do it? Anyway?
Speaker 2: From this?
Speaker 1: I have no idea, but oh, Western Conference stuff, which
I feel like it's a good time to, uh, let's
throw up the So we'll do the West teams and
just as a reminder, we're trying to decide whether they'll
be better or worse relative to how many wins they
had last seasons. Okay, here we go. For those watching,
it's on the screen so you could look at I
was wondering, grant, since they're on the screen and easy
for us to keep track of, do we want to
draft and pick which teams we go to? Just completely
out of order?
Speaker 2: Oh I don't know. I was thinking too, we could
like go in order of like how confident we are,
but I don't have official rankings for that, so yeah,
I don't know.
Speaker 1: Let's just say I say we pick random what's the
team you want to talk and we'll just go that way.
Speaker 2: Well, we're gonna forget this way. This is this is
a rest.
Speaker 1: You'll be able to see what I'm gonna put something
up that is better or worse, and you'll be able
to see which teams we haven't done.
Speaker 2: All right, fine, let's do Uh. I really want to
start with Dallas because I like to keep things in order.
You're gonna push me here, Okay, I want to start.
Let's start here because this is the team that I
have the most difficulty deciding. I flip flopped but twice
now since I wrote this up for br and that's
the Phoenix Suns. So let's let's do Phoenix here. Initially,
so they won forty nine games a year ago. Initially
I was really convinced that they were going to be
worse than that, the logic just being I don't think
Kevin Durant has another seventy five all NBA level games
in him, which the Suns got from him last year.
Just all the basic Sun stuff. They're top heavy, they're inflexible.
Bradley Beal is a pretty big disappointment. All the second
Apron stuff. They just their options are limited, all of
their best players have health questions. Is Usef Nurkic gonna
be as good somehow as he seemed to be on
defense last year and allow them to finish twelfth in
defensive efficiency? So I had them worse, and then Tyas
Jones happens, and then I remember that they have Monte
Morris and Mason Plumbley, so the rotation looks a little better,
and certainly the point guard spot looks better. And then
I was like, okay, maybe better because forty nine is
not that many, so I could be persuaded to go
either way. I would like your deciding vote if you
have a strong feeling. If not, I think I know
where I'm leaning. But what is your sense of the
Suns before I definitively say better or worse?
Speaker 1: So wait, you're saying whatever I say, you're just gonna adopt.
Speaker 2: I just I would.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm not no, I'm not promising that.
Speaker 1: I would, just like making sure. I wanted to know
how much power I had.
Speaker 2: You have a decent amount of power here, So I
think they're going to be better.
Speaker 1: Okay, the fact that they won forty nine games, given
all that happened last year, and I know that the
Big three they did play together, but the stop and
start availability of Bradley Beal to begin the year certainly
didn't help things. The fact that they were so good
on defense without getting super lucky on opponent shooting is
just They could be better on that end with a
full year of Royce O'Neil. And you're also you brought
back Josh Akogi. Now, however you are, I've called it.
Then they've exacerbated their amount of non wings by bringing
in Tias Jones. But one of our biggest gripes with
them was the turnovers. Even with Devin Booker running point guard,
they were just minutes where it wasn't clicking. Now, maybe
just extra time improves that we bring in Tias Jones,
who is, by the way, one of only just two
players to have three seasons with an assist or eight
above twenty five and a turnover rate below nine. The
other player, by the way, Grant, is Michael Jordan. Pretty
good company to keep. You're gonna have some more offensive
organization and I think that's big deal in part because
of the concern that you just outlaid with Kevin Durant.
This will make it easier if he has to miss time,
but it also makes it or when he's on the bench,
of course, but it also makes it easier on Kevin
Durant because Tyus Jones is so good at getting into
the lane. He's pretty quick at getting off the ball,
and we saw KD specifically struggle with how defenses were
going after him and he's just not built that way
to beat double teams the way he was a half
decade ago or so, and so to bring in another ballhandler,
game manager, I think that ends up making them better.
And I think you could also just point to it right,
KD might play less, Bradley Beal probably plays more, and
he to his credit, I think people have like made
Bradley Beal his no trade clause where it's like this
dude sucks because he has a no trade clause. It's no.
The no trade clause is very restrictive for his team,
and it's put the Suns in a tough spot. But
he's still a good player and I thought he did
a good job of trying to adapt last year. My
main concern with them is I know they were just
twelfth and def but they're starting tias, which means that
Beal or Devin Booker is just their primary wing checker
to begin games. And I'm very curious to see how
they're gonna close, because if you're tius, do you go
to Phoenix on the minimum? If you're like, oh, you'll start,
but we might just Yankee two minutes in and you're
not gonna close games.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go better. I think it's I think I
think you've sold me. The other thing is they had
to win the point differential of a team that should
have won like fifty just on cleaning the last fifty
point six, So there's a little wiggle room if you
were to assume they like actually aren't any better. I
think there's just the depth as part of it. I
guess this is an argument that the improved depth the
presence of more than one point guard offsets like the
there's like a some there you gotta concede, though there's
real like the bottom falls out risk with this team
if like one or two of their relatively injury prone
best players are down at the same time. But I guess, yeah,
so so high variants for sure, but forty nine is
just not that high, So I guess we'll go better.
Speaker 1: For them, is there, like they also do have and
this will they can still trade their twenty thirty one
first round pick, is what I'm getting at. And they
have salaries in Joshua Kogi, even Royce, O'Neill, Grayson Allen,
if they're willing to move him, they could do, like
if that's if the twenty thirty one pick is on
the table, Like I'm using this as an example, do
you know who'd be perfect for this team? Tarry Easton?
And so, if you're Houston and you've already started getting
in the business of Suns picks, why don't you get
that twenty thirty one first round pick? Send out Tarry Easton,
take back whatever you need to do. Would you do that?
If you're Phoenix, like you, is Tyry Easton a good
enough player to say I'm punting on my draft seven
years from now?
Speaker 2: If I'm Phoenix, I've probably already tried to trade that
pick like that. I think they're just like if I'm.
Speaker 1: Pretending, like, who is the worst type of player that
you would I proposed this to somebody and they said, well,
could Houston give up Cam Whitmore as well? And I
was like, salary wise, Yeah, they could make it work.
But Kem Whitmore and Tari Easton for just a twenty
thirty one first round pick, I don't think. I don't
think I'm doing it if I'm Houston.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in just like in a vacuum of
I don't know, are we talking unprotected whatever? A first
round pick of any type is kind of a lot
for Tari Easton. I really like Tari Easton. I just
wrote about him today because he had kind of a
lost season, But defensively, that guy is just a game wrecker,
and like he really is the type of guy you
would want playing with, you know, scoring stars, which is
what Phoenix had. Traffic's in. Yeah, I don't know. I
don't know who the best players that pick could get,
but like that's the fit at least would make a
lot of sense if Easton could could be healthier than
he was a year ago. All Right, so we're bullish
on the Suns. I guess despite me having a lot
of reservation.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna draft one now. Are you ready?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Go ahead. We have not talked about this team that much.
The Portland Trailblazers twenty one wins last year, Grant and
so I guess this is the best way I'm going
to draft teams to the intention throwing it to you
twenty one wins? Are you calling them better or worse?
Speaker 2: I think they're gonna be worse, and that I have
it gives me a little bit of pause because twenty
one wins is like that, that's that's not a lot
of wins. We do see teams in the teams pretty
much every year, though, and some of it. A lot
of it is just sort of the context of the
West for me, just because there's probably only going to
be at most two Western Conference teams that are not
interested in winning. The Blazers will be one of them.
I think Utah's the other. But with this marketing deal,
I don't know, maybe not, or maybe it'll be harder.
So it's the context, and it's the idea that like,
if the guys that they should want to play actually
play more, which is to say, like Scoot Shade and
Sharp I guess Simons to Mani Kamara, just their younger guys,
they should probably be bad just because that's just what
happens when you give a ton of minutes to young players,
and then they're also like if you're talking about, well,
how might the roster change? They have veterans that they
can and should be trying to trade for future assets,
So like those are kind of the the that's the
three pronged kind of process that gets me to worse.
Even though twenty one wins is like, I mean, you
could accidentally win twenty two games. It seems like in
most years. I just think Portland is the arrow is
aiming down for Portland, and I think they're okay with that.
Speaker 1: I would agree with you. That's why I put it
up on the screen. We caught not you and I,
but Espreheeny and I when we were talking about the
Blazers direction. We both expressed confusion over it, and we
caught a lot of shit. I'm still somewhat confused over it.
I don't understand what Chauncey Billups is guiding principles a
head coaches just yet how much of that is related
to Okay, well, look at what when he took over
what they were trying to do versus last year when
they dealt with all these injuries. What I will say is,
as currently constructed, this team should probably be better. And
I'm even I was not a donviic wing guy coming
out of the draft. But he proved to be when
you watched him, and when I watched him in Summer League.
He did a lot of the I am huge and
I know it stuff on defense really well. We saw
him take some threes and so they have a trillion bigs.
But like, if they're just willing to play Donovan Clington,
there's a chance that their defense just gets better by that.
Dniavia makes their defense better. Jeremy Grant pretty good defenders. Still,
they have Tomani Kamara. This is a team that Robert
Williams the third if he's healthy. This is a team
if they're not making massive moves. I feel like they
could be sneaky good on defense. Now, this is all
to say, and I hope Blazers fans don't take this
as an insult. You mentioned it. They want to be bad.
They are the only team right now in the Western
Conference that is very clearly not interested in winning next season,
and so whether it's trading players or whether it's shutting
them down, they are going to be bad. I don't
know if I'm prepared to say like they might win
twenty games instead of twenty one. I think they'll end
up in the teams just because I firmly believe maybe
you could pencil Utah into this sort of umbrella too.
But these other their teams are either going to be
trying to win or maybe talented enough to stumble into
wins unless catastrophic injuries happen. The Blazers, yeah, on paper,
they're probably good enough to stumble into more wins than
they want. But I don't think they're gonna let them.
I'm not saying they're gonna shut down guys, but you're
gonna see some lineups get rolled out there where it's, oh,
maybe Scoot isn't starting, but he's closing games for us,
when there might just be a better veteran lineup to
run out there. So that's why I think they'll finish
with fewer than twenty one wins next season. That doesn't
mean that they their future will probably be better off
for it, though, But this team is you know, when
you look at them and I'll the Hornets, those are
the teams that are on paper where its well, everyone's
just gonna assume that they suck, and it's like, if
they're just healthy and keep this together, they could probably
win more games than you're expecting, but just relative to
the hell fire that is the Western Conference, I'm gonna
go with fewer than twenty one wins.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that has to be right. I mean,
you know, I'm not. I don't know. You look at
the roster and you it's hard to say, like, oh,
they definitely want to lose. What I do feel confident
in saying is they should want to lose. And it's
and it has more to do with just the con
because like we're just going for it whatever that means.
Get them right, Like you're not finishing above more than
like one team or two. Maybe if something goes totally
sideways for one of the top thirteen teams in the West,
right if if Memphis has enough, if another team goes
even Memphis won what twenty seven last year, Like this
team can't. It can't. It's like the play in is
like out of the question, and like even that is
something I think we agree, like teams probably shouldn't be
gunning for the play in generally. So yeah, I they
they just they cannot if they are trying to do
anything but just play all the young guys and let
whatever happens happen. It feels like a pretty big mistake.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that there. I mean, there's we
mentioned the trillion centers, so there's weirdness there. But they
don't have anyone on this roster, maybe Jeremy Grant, because
it pay grade that they can't just say, well, you're
not guaranteed minutes, and there's no one with sort of
that cachet to where if you don't play them, it's
I want to be a big deal. So I think
that'll allow them to do if they don't want to.
Maybe if the offers for Grant aren't out there or
they're they're not good offers for RW three, and they're
certainly not gonna be good offers for eight, and I
would imagine they could just not play those guys as
many minutes without really like any sweat off. Again, Grant
might be the one where you look at and say,
is there any issue there? But he's sort of the
player where it's he's good and he will be good
on a bad team, but he's not like good enough
to ruin your tank or not your tank, but your
your organic rebuild, whatever you want to call it. And
so I would say just because I'm already open to
the idea that I missed on Donovan Klingen in the draft,
that I feel better about Portland's future even though I
think that they're gonna win fewer games next season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could get behind that, all right. I want to.
I want to nominate another the other really difficult one
for me in the West, and that's the Sacramento Kings.
Speaker 1: So I just I love how we're just going, and
we're not going at alphabetical order.
Speaker 2: I didn't even mean to do that, right. See, you
can't stop me from trying to be organized accident, even accidentally.
So I think we are pretty much of the same
mind about the main offseason decision, which was the DeMar
DeRozan sign and trade uh Net talent upgrade, potential for
the whole to be less than the some of the
parts because you have a lot of overlapping skills, a
lot of primary offensive players that are not very valuable
off the ball. So how do you make that work
between him, Sabonis, Fox, Malik Monk. Not that all those
guys are valueless off the ball, but generally speaking, you
they're best with it. I think the defense should be
worse with de Rozan.
Speaker 1: You are, I already hear the comments in the U two.
Who I just I'm not even trolling Kings fans here,
but they really there's a lot of them that seem
to lead that Demard Rozan is going to be more
valuable on defense than Harrison Barnes. And I don't think
Harrison Barnes was good on defense last year. I think
what happened like if you look at what DeMar de
Rozen needs to do in Chicago and who Demarta Rosen
got to play with in a lot of his minutes
versus who Harrison Barnes was covering last year, you can't
even ask Demart Rosen to try doing that. At least
Harrison Barnes was, Okay, he kind of has like the
archetype of has to do that. And so I'm just
I'm only interjecting because a lot of Kings fans seem
to just think that Tomarta Rosen is the more valuable
defensive player, and I just think that's not reading enough
into the context of where he was and how he
was used in Chicago.
Speaker 2: I guess I could be convinced that DeRozan and Barnes
are similar defensively, or like close enough that it might
not be a huge drop off. I think I still
think if if I had to choose, will the defense
be better or worse? Just the personnel suggests it should
be worse. And maybe Kean Ellis plays more offsets that,
but who's who, which which off the offensive weapons is
not playing if he's out there, you know that. So
the other thing for me, and this is really I'm
gonna go I'm gonna go worse. Because they won forty
six games a year ago, we should probably lead with
with that. I'm going worse for all those reasons, combined
with the fact that I think a couple teams that
finished below the Kings Houston San Antonio could threaten to
get up into that range. And the fact that clutch
performance was a huge driver of the Kings exceeding their
point differential, which was that of like a forty two
win team.
Speaker 1: So we're talking.
Speaker 2: Really about it unless you believe that clutch luck carries over,
which given some of the guys on the King's roster
like Fox and Deroz and they got I mean they
have clutch players or guys that have historically been clutch.
We're knocking four wins off, right, there, like they were
not really a forty six win team. If you put
any stock in point differential, which I think we both do.
I certainly do, so the bar is actually lower, and
so they could be roughly the same team as last year,
or even a little better in terms of, you know,
the point differential, and still win forty four or whatever
and finish worse. So this was a hard one for
all the reasons I've stated. Do you have anything to
add or are we just like too in lockstep on this?
Speaker 1: Oh, I actually disagree. I think they're going to be better. Okay, great,
So I look at there and I had a conversation
with Greg Whissinger on the side about their He've mentioned
how their top end defensive units were firing by the
end of last season. What I doubt there is. I
think it's actually harder if you're if we're assuming the
guys that they want to play the most, that it's
going to be harder for them to get to a
league defensive units. However, their issue from my end was offense.
Last year. There are fourteenth in point scored per possession,
which for a team built around Daron Fox and Demanta
Sabonis is just not even close to good enough, and
so you start to dig into it, and I agree
with you that everyone is kind of more comfortable on
the ball. But if you look of all the rotation
players on the Kings last year, every single one of
the regular rotation players, darreon Fox was the only player
who scored a majority of his buckets unassisted. And so
now you bring into Rose because look, that's not the
leik Monk's game. Sa Bonus is more of a driver
of playmaking than he is of looking for his own offense.
Now you bring into Rosen, you have that other outside creator.
You're getting another and this is why so I'm more
concerned about the defense because I think the mart Roz
is gonna help the offense that much. And he's shown
hill up his three point volume. Will he hit them
as a different story. So Bonus shot the three ball
well last year, just not in higher volume. Is there
wiggle room there? Do you look at staggering them? And
that's what's also interesting about this team. They're staggered. Star
minutes were pretty bad last year. When you look at
just the Bonus and now those I would think they
get strengthened where you could surround just Sabonus and de
Rosen with a bunch of shooters and make it work
that way, or you could stagger those two. They've all
these different options of how they could stagger their best players,
which I think you just get forty eight more complete
minutes of basketball. And I think I'm ultimately optimistic on
the defensive end for three reasons. Uh you mentioned keon
El's already. I think he's really good, especially when he's
gonna get to go if he's going up against like smaller,
twitchier advantage creators. I think two, Keagan Murray is one
of the most underrated defenders in basketball to me, yep,
right now, everything from his one on one stuff to
just like kind of as a hell guy around the basket.
He was top thirty in shots contested at the rim
last year. I know that's kind of a function of
Wile Sabonis as your center, but like that's fucking wild.
And Third, this is a team that is going to
make a move. I don't know if it's gonna be
how big it is, but I think that this is
like I've said the Calves, I would also say the Kings,
Like that's a Dori Infiney Smith team, and given that
if you're able to get that level of player by
the trade deadline, given the defensive improvement that Fox has shown,
given the off ball improvement Fox has shown basically since
Sabonis's arrival, I think this is I don't want to
say a sleeping giant, but this feels like a forty seven,
forty eight to forty nine win team to me, even
in the current West landscape. But finally, I'll say this
very quickly, I think you are right to say that
they could wind up winning forty four forty five games,
and that's not necessarily it could be an indictment on
what they became, but it might just say more about
the West than WHOA this team got worse.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm receptive to all that. I think I
should have mentioned Murray, and I do think the case
you'd make is like, well, Murray, whether it's good or
bad for his long term development, slips down the offensive
pecking order, but that means like, well, he's got more
juice to just defend the best guy all the time,
and that that's helpful for their defense. I think ultimately
the two things I'll say one I would have done
the DeRozan trade, even though I have so many reservations
about it. And two, if I could have picked instead
of better or worse, same, I think I would have
for this team more readily than any other. So I
still I guess, like historically, I just have to underrate
the Kings because that's kind of my brand, and so
I'm sticking with it. Yeah, I I all good arguments.
I think this will be one to watch for sure,
because I just I don't believe in the in the
theory of the team, I guess as much as you do.
And maybe that's what it comes down to.
Speaker 1: They are probably one of the more polarizing teams in
the league.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I guess, I don't know, Like I don't.
Don't you think that most people would say they're going
to be about the same. Maybe maybe just the loud
voices are on the extremes that we're exposed to. I
don't know.
Speaker 1: So I should yell into the microphone that they're gonna
be better, and that'll I should.
Speaker 2: Yell they're gonna be worse, But I don't really feel
super strongly. All right, you nominate somebody not The.
Speaker 1: Supers go out of order from the bottom row here
for anyone watching on YouTube. I apologize in advance, Grant.
I feel like we should do no, No, We're gonna
do the Pelicans. I don't know how to feel about
this team, and we all know that I am notoriously
like sniffing everything that's coming out of New Orleans, throwing
it right up my nose. I think Zion Williams in
at peak is one of ten best players in the NBA.
Is he going to be healthy enough to do that?
I love the Dejente Murray acquisition. I don't understand what's
going on at center right now where it's I guess
it's Zion and Daniel Tye and Eve mecI, and I
just I there's a move to be made there and
look condolence as the Pelicans fans. You now can't trade
for Jared Allen until basically around the trade deadline is
when he'll be trade eligible again, so there's still hope
it could happen, but it's not happening before the season.
I just look at them and I like so many
of their players individually, and that includes I like Brandon Ingram.
I think he's a good basketball player. But like, if
we're gonna go through another season. If he is not
upping his three point volume and he's dribbling out of
open threes or something, you're gonna have a real problem
because you've now added someone else into the fold, and
de Jontay Murray who has been willing to up his
three point volume, but you need to put the ball
in his hands. So brandon Ingram, even if you're gonna
stagger aggressively, like brandon Ingram, needs to do more as
a complimentary asset or they need to find a move
for him. And my concern here is, and I should
have mentioned, they're working off a baseline from last season
with forty nine wins. They have so like almost fifty.
It's like there's not if you want them to be better,
Like there's like they have to clear the fifty when
that's not gonna be easy in this West. I'm kind
of leaning worse until we figure out the brandon Ingram
of it all, the center of it all. And just
like the track record suggest that even if Zion Williamson
does everything right, come in shape, get the diet down,
play his ass off on defense, his body's just gonna
betray him because life is unfair. Like he's just gonna
be in the middle of a generational performance against the Lakers,
and the Rug's gonna be ripped out from underneath him.
I don't like saying this just because I love the
Zion and de Jontay Murray, Trey Murphy, Herb Jones dynamic.
It's like everything else after that. And finally, even if
you believe they're going to improve the team, anything they
do almost has to be massive because it's like, look
at they gave up their kind of two of their
smaller or medium sized salary matching chips to get the
Jontey Murray and lyonn Ns Junior and Dyson Daniels. And
now it's okay, like you could still do something with
Jordan Hawkins. But if you're otherwise, you're looking at, oh CJ.
McCollum thirty plus million, brandon Ingram thirty five plus million,
And so are they prepared to do something on that scale?
And what is brandon Ingram even worth? Not just in
an extension, what's the number that would make you resign
him and give yourself some continuity or at least know okay,
because if you let that leak into the season, that's
gonna be a storyline I could distract the team. And
also I was listening to the Latest in the Know
podcast and it was I really enjoyed the episode. But Schmidt,
do what like this is where we're at with brandon Ingram?
Is I caught shit because I can't remember what the
package was, but I think New Orleans was giving up
a first round pick with brandon Ingram in addition to
getting on Yuka kung Wu and de Jante Murray and
some trade I concocted Schmidt, who had proposed, would you
do Walker Kesler and John Collins for brandon Ingram if
you're the Pelicans. I think they ultimately landed up on No.
But like, this is where we're at. Yeah, like you're
not getting multiple first round picks for brandon Ingram. To
what would we take this kind of salary filler guy
in John Collins who stretches the floor but isn't gonna
do much for rim protection? Noill rebound, and then we'll
take Walker Kesler, who I don't know if he's like
selling children on the black market or something, but the
Jazz seemed to hate him. I so, like, I just
I don't know how to feel about this team.
Speaker 2: So I think I'm a little I'm one. I'm surprised
that I uh am higher on them than you are.
I see them being better, and that is while acknowledging
this is maybe the first time I've I have not
just let the Zion Williamson injury slash conditioning risk make
me choose like the under I think like I just
am always be pessimistic about that. I don't know why
I'm changing my tune. I think it's just because we
saw him make like what was a pretty marked conversion
midway through the year last year, and maybe that's doesn't
mitigate the risk of like, oh, his knee goes out
or whatever. But I do think there's reason to believe
he's going to be at least in better shape than
in the past, and so we know what he can
do when he is fit and like on the ball
and is just one of the best offensive players in
the world. I think the de Jonte Murray edition gives
me some optimism. I think the fact that there is
just so clearly a trade to be made, like the
center thing, it just has to change. You've outlined, like
the mechanics of that are harder than ever. I just
think whoever they get in there has got to be
better than what they have and that maybe that takes
away from somewhere else. But like I think Trey Murphy
is going to be better. I think Herb Jones made
quiet strides again last year. He's still young enough to improve.
I think Jordan Hawkins is a huge weapon that like
this kind of movement shooter with tons of gravity as
a rookie, already like gets plays run for him watching
I was watching film on him today because I'm weirdo
and just like his sick o. Sorry, we gotta use
our branding. And he just he's already a guy that,
like any screen he sets just causes chaos because you
can't you have to stay attached to him. So he
has all this offensive value that I think is kind
of mostly untapped. There's just ways for a lot of
guys that are already on New Orleans to get better.
And I think bar you know, maybe it's just like oh,
barring injury, but like you know, we say that for everybody,
but the Zion thing is real. I just I think
they could win fifty two. Like that doesn't seem crazy
to me. So I'm going to go better and I'm
surprised that we're on the sides of this that we are.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna defer to you because I want them to
be better. And if you told me that their starting
center wasn't going to be Daniel Tice or even Zion
william in the sense I don't want him playing that
much center, I would go better. It's just the center thing,
like I'm like, I'm I'm opening the idea that brand
Ingram just might take more threeson that we've seen him
take more threes in the past. I honestly someone asked
me this, I don't know what the thing is. We've
never heard anything about him that he's some malcontent who
won't work. Like has been quite the opposite of the
stuff you hear about him, So what like, is it
something that's just psychological? The center position makes it uncomfortable
in the lack of a resolution and also the idea
that if there is going to be a resolution, it
almost has to be somewhat significant. So I'm gonna just
go better because I'm that much of a believer in
Zion Lingams And as you mentioned Trey Murphy, like that
is you figure out a way to get him in
the starting lineup. I don't care who you're bringing off
the bench to do it. And if you know what,
if it's a matter of starting Zion at the five,
so be it. Then let's just start Trey Murphy. I
think bringing CJ off the bench is kind of an
easy decision. Stagger your stars and sure they're shooting coming
off the bench. Trey Murphy replaces that in the starting lineup.
But whatever, what do I know, Grant, what's the next
team we're going to?
Speaker 2: All right, let's do an easy one here, arguably the
easiest on the board. So let's just knock it out.
The Memphis Grizzlies. Twenty seven wins last year. Everybody on
the entire roster who mattered other than I guess Jaron
Jackson was injured, suspended, whatever. There's just no way they
don't win twenty more games than that this year, right, Like,
I just I don't know what else there is to
really say, Like we've seen this team win fifty plus
twice in a row when healthy. Last year was an outlier.
I don't know how much more in detail we need
to get, Like, oh, Gig Jackson and Vince Williams Junior
got all these reps that they wouldn't have otherwise because
the team was so threadbare. They'll be better, they'll be helpful.
Like if those are your ninth and tenth guys or whatever,
you're awesome. It's just like twenty seven, Like there's no
way they win fewer than twenty seven. So it's just
this is the easiest one on the board. They're gonna
be better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're gonna be way better. The only really matter
of debate, and that's it's just a matter of how
much better they would be is how much are they
gonna leaned on Zach Edie. What does that look like?
And does that adversely or positively impact their ceiling? But
he should help, he should. Honestly, I think they might
wind up being scariers because he probably unlocks the best
possible version of Jaron Jackson Junior on defense because he
just does the rim protection and rebounding stuff, and then
that just frees Upjaron Jackson. You're going to fly around
like a cycle path or siko and really just function
up for other teams. And so I don't think we
need to spend more time on apologies to Grizzlies fans.
We did do an in depth look at them previously.
To go check out that clip YouTube. It's also on
our podcast. But it's just like they're gonna win more games.
Like with the theory of just John Rant Bade Jared
Jackson Junior destroyed opponents when they were on the court
together the previous season. I thought Marcus Martt was bad
last year when you look at the way he was
running the offense. Maybe that was about the talent deficit
around him. But you pair those four with him and
Zach Edy and GG Jackson, Vince Williams. You already mentioned
those names. Luke Canard is back. I do worry about
their shooting overall, but I think the bigger thing, and
I promise I'm wrapping it up here, is you mentioned
the reps GG Jackson and Vince Williams got the reps
that Jared Jackson Junior just been Bane got just without
John rant I think is gonna make them way better.
And Des von Baine was already tracking towards that. But
Jared Jackson Junior base like quadrupling his ISO frequency and
like kind of not sucking in those situations. That's just gonna,
I think make him a better all around player.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, easy one. All right, your turn, my turn?
Speaker 1: Do I go easy here too? Yeah? San Antonio spurs
great winners of maybe it's not easy, but winners of
twenty two games last year. I would say they're very
clearly gonna be better. And I will continue to cite
the stat that we cite and that everyone cites. They
outscored opponents by five point two points per one hundred
possessions with Victor Webnyama and Trey Jones on the court
last year. Chris Paul is now on this team. Even
if you think that Chris Paul aged thirty nine is
not better than Trey Jones, I would argue against that.
But the theory of this is you now have Victor
Webenyama probably playing every single one of his minutes next
to a competent floor general, and that just drums up
the ceiling on your team exponentially. The caveat might be
so even during those minutes with Trade Jones, they had
a below average offense, may was in like the forty
third percent tile, but like again, just scale that. Now
Trey Jones minutes all of a sudden going up against
second units again rather than eventually I mean he started
too late for san Antonio. I just think all you
say it all the time, all things are possible through Wemby,
and I would say this is the best way I
would frame it, that they'll be closer to five hundred,
then they'll be closer to thirty wins. I think that's
like closer to forty one than then closer to thirty.
Speaker 2: I have a so I was worried you were going
to say the exact same take that I've kind of
been formulating on them. I think they're more likely to
two x their win total, which would be forty four
off of last year's twenty two, than they are to
like I don't know, to win, certainly to win fewer games,
but I just feel like twice as many wins is right,
Like I don't know, maybe that's too optimistic, but like
a couple of other things too. I don't Just to
add to what you were saying, like you're the biggest
Devon fa Celle supporter, I know, Like I think Devinvesell
is gonna be better. It's not just Wemby. The benefits
for multiple capable point guards being on the roster. It's
someone that you know can do stuff on his own,
but I think still everybody benefits from like good spoon
fed looks right, and he's not exclusive there, Like what
if Keldon Johnson gets back on the track he was
two three years ago. It just like Jeremy Sohan doesn't
have to play point guard anymore. That was an interesting
like it just sort of Now it's a lot to
put on Chris Paul's plate because he's at an age
where it's like he might play twenty five games. So
I guess that's your downside. They're not winning fewer than
twenty two just because Wemby is gonna be an All
NBA player, He's gonna win Defensive Player of the Year.
He's gonna put up numbers that we just haven't seen.
Like that's that's just a given, right, So I don't
the Chris Paul thing like puts it way over the top.
But you don't even need that to say they're gonna
win more than twenty two games.
Speaker 1: So argument shooting probably also helps their offense as well too,
just opening up the floor. If Kelden Johnson isn't making threes.
Speaker 2: Yep, no, they just have two more like capable competent
professional NBA vets that film and then they just have
a guy who's got no ceiling. So I's like twenty
two is ridiculous.
Speaker 1: What's more likely for them, though, that Wemby is so
good or they're so good that they make I won't
say a super duper blockbuster trade, but they make a
trade to improve their team materially improve. Someone who cracks
could crack the closing lineup for the top six or
seven of the rotation, or they end up steering out
of being too good.
Speaker 2: I think the former's more likely, just because I mean,
one because they can, they have enough draft assets to
do it, and two because like I don't, I don't
think they don't seem wired to me to you got Wemby,
like unless unless, unless everybody's hurt and you can, you know,
be the worst team in the league and somehow get
Cooper Flag out of this, like your set, you have
the foundational piece, Like we didn't even mention Stefan Castle,
Like there's another high lottery guy that you got a
couple now and the Selle still has the lottery pedigree?
Was he a lottery pick anyway? Good young player p degree,
So like you don't need more, I don't think of
like of that kind of thing to justify it, being like, oh,
we're gonna win. I don't know what's the number. We're
gonna win thirty eight games? We got a Utah Jazz
this and make sure for the last two months of
the year. We just creator like I don't I don't
see that one.
Speaker 1: I like that you started.
Speaker 2: You have Wemby that's gonna be OpEd there, honestly, like
I just continuing to speak at all the main points
have been made. Let's see is it my turn it is?
Let's see have we not done a row here? Okay,
let's go to the top row. Let's do the Houston Rockets.
Let's stay in Texas. Uh. They won, So they already
have like made a rare jump and wins year over
year because they went from twenty two to forty one
last season. They're not gonna add another nineteen wins. I
don't think. Uh, it doesn't feel like a sixty win
team to me, But I think they're gonna be better.
Just like pick your breakout guy, Like there's seventeen of
them on this roster. Uh, and that's that's exclusive of
guys like Alprin Shangoon who still could have another level
to his game. Fringe All star Jalen Green. I don't know,
like they don't need him to break out to be better,
but if he's anything close to that closing run, then great.
I'm and Thompson, I think I'm super high on him.
Still Cam Witmore as a bucket. You get Tarry easton
back he barely played last year, Read Shepherd looks like
the I mean, the best rookie I saw in Summer League.
Speaker 1: So I just I'm still gonna in the bag for
Cody Williams, who finished atop my draft board. But I
watching read Shepherd, I was just like, why wasn't he
a top everybody's draft board.
Speaker 2: His shit is gonna work. It's just gonna work, Like
I think that was the concern. It's like a guy
that looks like that with these measurables, like who who's
good that that is? That is that way? And it's like, well, uh,
he's an awesome shooter and he works hard on defense.
He's really smart and he makes all the floaters.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, like his just the the mid
range game, just like all the off the dribble jumpers.
From there, it's gonna keep defenses on tilt and he'll
open the floor away from the ball. I am surprised.
I think here I'm going better as well. You're more confident,
it sounds like than I am, because they're still in
this quasi development phase when you just look at all
the like prospects they're going to lean on, but there's
not is there a single I guess you could maybe
make the case for Jalen Green, but he seems more lateral,
just like there's no one on this roster factors in
the rotation that's on the downs where it's like, oh,
their stock is like Dyln Brooks' needle is pointed upward everywhere,
right Yeah. No.
Speaker 2: I even mentioned Jabari Smith Junior, who I think made
real strides last year shot thirty six percent from three,
Like you can use him as a small ball center
against he just it's all these guys, Like if there's
a problem here, it's that they have too many of
these guys. And then it's like, oh, well, okay, I
guess we make a consolidation trade for a win now player,
like using two of our young guys that just can't
get minute. It's like, there's no it's just hard for
me to see this going badly. And I also think
finally that like I think Immiodoka just imparts like a
fucking seriousness to every team that he coaches, and the
Rockets just like aren't. They're not messing around, like they're
gonna try to win all the time, and like they
have guys that operate that way like Brooks, like Fred
van Vliet, like Shingoun who's super competitive, Like they just
forty one win, like they're not a five hundred team.
I just I just think they're they're bound to be
better than that because of the personnel and just how
just how they sort of seem to be wired well.
Speaker 1: The pathway for them to be worse though beyond injury,
of course, would just be if he's if Emoodoko or
the organization in general is more concerned about, well, we're
gonna like cap minute distribution to try and fit in
all these guys, and we want to prioritize the development
of let's say Aman Thompson over giving minutes to Fred
van Fleet or Dylan Brooks and decisions of that nature.
The other thing they could do. I don't think they will,
but like they have this caps place plan in twenty
twenty five, where it's there. I don't know if they're
plan on going free agency huntings so much as we
want that flexibility for a trade, do they view any
of their good players now as more valuable to just
get off the books and get picks for or and
then bring those into the offseason. I just I don't
see an instance where, like I said, if you get
bowled over by the if you get a twenty thirty
one first round picks from Phoenix and now you can
own their draft in twenty seven to twenty nine and
twenty thirty one, give up Tari Eastan so that you
can just pencil in Devin Booker by probably like the
year twenty twenty six twenty seven into a Rockets jersey.
So but even like that, it's like they're not gonna
move out for in Shanghun. I'd be floored. And if
they do move them, it's probably because they got a
king's ransom or something terribly wrong there they have. It's
it's harder for me just because they have so many
The West is so good, and so many players are
just unfinished in Houston. But I don't know how you
look at this team after what they did defensively. Now
look at how they should get improvement offensively, specifically from
Jabari Smith Junior. Keep gonna go on the way up.
Now you add read Shepherd, I'm and Thompson will get better.
I it's just I can't bring myself to say worse,
even though I think, and this could be the case
for every team is the West is the West is
the West? And so if you're not sort of this
entrenched inner circle contender, it could be a little bit.
There's probably more of the like the floor could fall
out from beneath you see.
Speaker 2: I just think that like the West is the West
argument applies. It applies to everybody, but to me, it
applies more to a team like the Kings than the Rockets,
just because every single guy, maybe other than Van Vliet,
I guess because small guards don't age well, every single
guy should that matters should be better. And the last thing,
they were, by point differential, a forty six win team
last year. The difference between their actual wins and what
their point differential said they should have won was the
highest in the league. So like, they're already better, they
just didn't show it last year. And unless you think
the Thompson's and Smith's and whoever else of the world
are gonna get worse, which like, why would they like? Man,
I don't know. I'm talking myself into some real irrational
opinions on the Rockets, but I'll just leave it saying
I think they're better than forty one wins.
Speaker 1: It is my turn and we go to Let's go
to the Los Angeles Lakers. They won forty seven games
last year. They have done save for hiring JJ Reddick
and drafting Dalton Connect, absolutely nothing zippo this offseason. Just
I mean, obviously their financial situation is restrictive, but it's
not impossible to navigate. And they're not a second Apron team,
so you could have aggregated salaries in a trade. As
long as you're taking back you're not taking back more money.
You're taking back the same or less money. Here's the
other thing I'm leaning towards worse unless they do something.
All these takes are subject to change's before opening night.
But the thing that's really driving it for me, grant
Antony Davis and Lebron James played three six hundred and
fifteen possessions together. Last season. You're really gonna and the
Lakers were plus four point five in those minutes. That's respectable.
You're gonna tell me that they're gonna get that much
joint time from Lebron and Anthony Davis. Again, Lebron who's
gonna be in his age forty season, Anthony Davis, who
historically is always one injury away from being two injuries
away from returning. Like he's always on the floor. He thought, like,
I mean literally on the floor. It seems like every
other play when he's actually like in the rotation. I
think to like, I don't know if the Lakers are
gonna at this stor it's like, oh, we're not gonna
We already used up like our best availability season from
Lebron and Ad. You might as well just stay the
same and ride this out. And I also don't know
what avenues were open to them. Clearly they weren't gonna
get a lowry market in before he signed his Utah's tension.
They weren't Trey Young. It doesn't look like he was
ever available, but like they probably could have beaten the
Pelicans offer for de Jontay Murray. I don't know if
Atlanta just maybe value Dyson Daniels more but like this
is a team that somehow, some way should have been
more invested in getting better. Yeah, and you have to
when we're naming all these other teams that are gonna
get better, the Sun's, the Spurs, the Rockets, the Pelicans,
apparently the Grizzlies. How are the Lakers supposed to be?
What is the pathway to this Lakers team as it
currently sits winning even as many games as they did
last season.
Speaker 2: You gave the possession total for ad and Lebron. I
always cite the games one hundred and forty seven combined.
Seventy six games for Anthony Davis were a career high,
seventy one for James was the most since seventeen eighteen.
Just it's not gonna happen again. That's just that's what
it is. And had they supplemented the roster beyond the
move I was gonna say moves, but beyond the move
you mentioned, which is drafting Ton connect like losing like
it's it's a problem when you've got to figure out
how to fill Torrian Prince's minutes, Like that's that's not
ideal if you're trying to get better. So I just
you know, and and like put the games played for
the two stars aside, just like general age, like Lebron,
it's it's coming slowly, but like he's he's just not
going to be the same Anthony Davis MICUs.
Speaker 1: I won't accept that. And he says he's not playing
in the twenty twenty eight Olympics. I call BS run
it back well age forty four Lebron or forty three,
whatever it will be.
Speaker 2: It really more than any other team. This is just
the simplest calculus, which is just that their two best
players will not play as much and they don't have
anybody else that's new to improve on what happened last year.
Speaker 1: Now do you think though that we've talked about this
with the Warriors where we can't identify the player that
would actually make them a contender? I mean that is
within the realm of actually acquiring. Do you get that
vibe with the Lakers? And if you do, shouldn't we
be more empathetic towards them doing nothing? Sort of how
the Warriors held their ground in lowry marketing talks or
is it well? No, like you have Lebron and ad
who are too like the the sum of the warriors
two best players right now, Draymond Green and Steph Curry.
I guess if you even considered Draymond their second best player,
I would like it, just like Lebron and Ad at
their peaks are gonna amount to more than Steph and
Draymond at their I don't It does feel like people
are more critical of what the Lakers, of the Lakers
doing nothing than they are of the Warriors, maybe because
the war did stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, I mean the Warriors didn't do nothing that
I mean. The similarity is that they didn't go get
the guy that's like, oh my god, ceiling Razor, which
is you know, I think in general, just speaking for myself,
like I got to try to be better about saying
like why didn't you go do this? It's like I'm
sure they tried, Like there just wasn't a deal that
made sense for them. I'm trying to give the executives
like a little more benefit of the doubt because like
they're spending more time thinking about their team than I am,
and they probably have explored a lot.
Speaker 1: Of I'm the Lakers are we sure.
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe less so than other teams, but
you know what I mean, Like, yeah, no, I I
just they have I think if you're going, if you're
gonna say they're gonna be better, you have to really
believe that the ruy Hachi Mura, Gabe Vincent, you know,
Hodgepodge salary match with whatever assets they can trade is
something that they would just will do. And and maybe
that maybe more names and more options emerge as the
season goes on. But just as it stands now, you
cannot say they're gonna be better and be like a
serious person.
Speaker 1: I don't think Yeah, and even the people that are
citing you get Dalton Connect back and Gabe Vincent and
Jared Vanderbilt will play more. I one think that's wildly
disingenuous to just say I saw this on Twitter that
someone thinks Dal't Connect out of the game, it's gonna
be more valuable than Torrian Prince was to them. I
guess Torrian Prince is not a good enough player to
say that that's outside their own possibility, But to just
assume that, yeah, seem bonkers to me. And the other
thing we already mentioned it, But I just want to
point this out in case anyone's well, yeah, Jared Vanderbilt,
Ga Vince are gonna play more. Lebron and a d
are not.
Speaker 2: How much more are they gonna play like one hundred
and sixty four games between the two of them and
they'll be All Stars because.
Speaker 1: That Jared Vanderbilt comes with like offensive concessions. So even
surely you're that much and gave Vincent. Last time we
tried to ga, Vincent was not hitting his threes. But
the theory of gave Vincent, yeah, certainly that that makes sense.
It kind of feels like they expected D'Angel Russell to
opt out and they were gonna have more flexibility than
they thought, and once he opted in, they had no clue.
What the fucking do? That's my read on there.
Speaker 2: Off right, all right, let's stay in LA. Let's do
the Clippers next. Sorry, sorry, it's gonna be worse.
Speaker 1: Let's move on. My team is gonna be.
Speaker 2: We could stop. I mean this can be a quick
one too, right, fifty one wins. Last year, Kawhi played
sixty eight games. That's his most since sixteen seventeen. He's
already somehow hurt or two not one, either hurt or
not good enough to play on Team USA. So you choose,
I guess, uh no, Paul George. James Harden I firmly
believe is in rapid decline, Like that's just he's not
the type of guy that I watched. Man, I was
watching some James Harden clips the other day from like
his MVP Rocket season.
Speaker 1: Dude, Like type of week are you having right now?
That you were watching film on Jordan Hawkins?
Speaker 2: Was I doing that? I don't know the YouTube the
algorithm told me to watch it, probably or something I
was writing about Jordan Hawkins that was it. I don't
know what I was thinking about James Harden anyway, He's
twenty five pounds up from that, like conservatively and does
not move the same way. Newsflash right, like none of
us thinking you bench these days still probably a beast
on the bench. I would say none of us are
what we used to be. The clips are also fifteen
and fourteen after the All Star break, the days of
us talking about that thirty and three or whatever. It is,
like that's not a thing. Kawhi won't be as healthy,
Paul George is gone, they can't win fifty one games?
What else you got? Christ's gonna say.
Speaker 1: What is the pathway to them getting better? They don't
even have the assets to get better. Yeah, they could
dangle a distant first round swap and pick. I don't
know who the best player you're getting for that is.
And I mean, like they did make something like Batooma's back.
Derek Jones Junior gives them that athleticism element on both
ends of the floor. Okay, sure, but it's like, I
don't feel good about their is like, what does this
team look like on offense at the end of the day.
I mean, you have James Harden, who I still think
is a very talented playmaker. But okay, then Kawhi is
kind of a secondary person, but Bowens Highland or Kevin
Porter junior, Chris Dunn is kind of making up your
backup point guard minutes. And if you want to throw
Nick Patomb in there, okay, sure, it's just very I
don't and it makes honestly the way their roster just
looks right now, I just don't. I don't understand what
they were thinking with the Paul George stuff. I just
don't like the second Apron boogeyman thing. Is just you
were willing to pay him to go into the second
Apron at least for two like you were gonna sign
him to a three year deal. What's the difference with
a four year deal. Just figure out a way to
move him. They'll be teamal trade for Paul George. I
honestly think that they saw what happened to Quiet the
end of last season and said, no, this isn't like
it's over. Yeah, you might lean into it, and.
Speaker 2: You know what, they weren't. They weren't wrong like we're
saying it is over. It's just so I guess, Yeah,
the Paul George things asked that preservation, Like, clearly Paul
George had a market value that you could have signed
him to that number and traded him for something like
you could have done it as opposed to letting him leave.
But yeah, I just this is this is another quick
one for me. I don't really you know, again, like
you said, I don't know what the argument is for
how they're like meaningfully best.
Speaker 1: Is there a team that you would say if they
traded Kawhi here, he won't just retire.
Speaker 2: That's why Dan, I haven't considered that hypothetical before. Uh,
I don't know. The Lakers is that the only one?
Speaker 1: If there both of these are because the Clippers are
still a first Apron team, I believe. So, like these
are two teams that can they can't take back more money,
so just like that makes it super difficult for them,
unless I'm miss reading the Clipper's salary situation, which I
don't think I am. I thought about maybe Golden State
maybe yeah, even though those are tough, like those are
tough Warders Traverse too. Would I understand that it's not California,
but if it was Oklahoma City, which is like, hey,
we'll play you twenty minutes a game, dude, you go
there and win a title.
Speaker 2: You can stay in San Diego five days a week,
just fly out for like the Thursday game. Maybe that's
how you do it. He plays once a week and
that's it. He doesn't have to live in Oklahoma City.
He could stay where he is. Yeah, that's probably that's
probably the answer. Right, we should mock up that fake trade.
Speaker 1: So it's my turn, right, yep, I'm gonna go just
so I want to hear your thoughts on it. And
we haven't done grades yet, but what what where are
the Warriors at right now? They won forty six last
year and so out goes Klay Thompson, but incomes Buddy healed,
and Kyle Anderson and danfy Melton and you have Brandon
for Jimski is going to be a year year more season.
Jonathan Minga had a very strong close to the season,
where like, are the Warriors better they what's happening here?
Speaker 2: I think I think they're a little better. And part
of it is just, like you know, there's always lots
of things that can go wrong, but they won forty
six with Draymond Green being suspended for a ton of time.
Even though he's declined significantly, he's still like a hugely
valuable piece and just someone who's minutes historically coincide with
like successful stretches. Klay Thompson was awful. Andrew Wiggins was
like basically unplayable. So if you I wouldn't put any stock,
Like if you think you know what version of Andrew
Wiggins has shown up this year, like congratulations, there's one
of you, Like I just I could not possibly guess.
It's hard for me to imagine he'll be worse. So
you combine the like how much worse could it get?
With I do think Kaminga, Pajemski, even Trace Jackson Davis,
the latter two having much lower floors like they should
be a little better. Kaminga was getting jerked around in
the rotation until he basically said like, I don't my
coach doesn't believe in me in the media, and then
started to play more and was really good. I think
the free agent editions insulate them a little bit in
the event that, you know, Pajemskier or any of the
young guys don't really pop. So I think you put
all that together and combine it with the most important fact,
which is they're not going to get Lauri Markinen. But
they're pretty clearly interested in making a big trade that
adds a major improvement, right, So whoever that ends up being,
I just think their willingness to do that, their interest
in it, suggests that it's more likely they get better
in a win now sense than not so. And forty
six is in a ton of wins, So I don't
I'm not gonna say they're gonna win fifty five or
even fifty. I just think they'll be a little bit
better for for all those reasons. Take that wherever you
want to.
Speaker 1: I could get on board with that, and I will
defer to you when I think on from a talent perspective,
they look better. I'm still just like they got. I
know that you'll get well. You should get more games
from Draymond and POD's and Kamingo will be better. You
had seventy four games.
Speaker 2: Out of Steph last year. The best counter is that
you may not.
Speaker 1: He may not be that guy, and I would argue
that you're probably less equipped to be good on offense
independent of Steph now that Chris Paul is gone. Just
like the playmaker, like d Anthony Mellon is like okay,
and you have Kyle Anderson, But what's up with Danthony
Meltain's back. He's not a fantastic passer. He's gotten a
little bit better at the live ribble stuff. Kyle Anderson, Yeah,
good playmaker, but not going to stretch the floor for you.
And can you play him in Draymond Green At the
same time, I guess if Raymond is your five, that's
something you could explore. The Andrew Wiggins of it all.
He might be more available, But what version of him
are you gonna get? I have some concerns with like
not I'm probably less concerned than consensus about what's going
on at the center position for them, because Draymond might
Draymond just might be better off suited like playing more
five overall at this point in his career. Cavan Luini
was not good last year. Though you do have tray
Jackson Davis, so you think he's gonna get better. You
have that going for you. I actually really like the
Lindy Waters acquisition. I think people are gonna make fun
of me, but like Lindy Waters is just like, if
you want more defense while also preserving the motion shooting element,
you could play him over Buddy Heald and me specifically,
I won't get mad. I know that's not what they're
gonna do, but I won't get mad. And then I'm
hopeful Moses Moody gets more minutes because I think that
that's someone who's ready to contribute now and has been
ready for a while. So I lean towards better as well.
But we're getting to a point where it's like there's
only so many wins that can go around in the
Western Conference, and they're in that like that tier with
the Kings, where like forty six is like it feels
like the same. It would almost make more sense just
because Stephan and Raymond are also just getting older So
let's say there Steph's as available and Draymond is more
available available. Are they as good as they were last season?
And the question is, I don't know. So I do
feel like there's there's wiggle room to think worse here,
but I the talent overall, the talent on this roster
is better, I think than it was last season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you hit on it. The way I
would frame it is that, like Steph Curry is not
a top five player anymore, but I do think you
could make the case that in terms of like importance
to his team or like how much his team lives
and dies with him, he's a top five guy. Like
there's Jokic, there's I don't even even know if you
put Giannis there because they the Bucks still have Dame right, like,
and if you Luca gets hurt, Kyrie Irving can run,
like if Steph is hurt and not playing, like there's
just there is no offense here, Like there's no functional offense.
So the bottom falls out to like an insane degree
if he's not healthy and he's going into his age
thirty six season, so like you should not assume health
at that point.
Speaker 1: Is there a chance though, that Pods gets there as
just like in this defless minutes because I think the
more I've watched Pods and after Joe Laca made those
comments about him being a future All Star, which I
wouldn't predict, but I went back and I was watching
a lot of PODS and I'm like, I feel like
there might just be more offensive creation for both himself
and others than we're just assuming. Yeah, at this point,
like he he shot like forty percent or something on
step back threes last year and took a good amount
of him.
Speaker 2: I think I think certainly he's someone that makes other
players better. I think that was apparent like from the
jump last year. I need to see a lot more
and a few different things from him as an individual
shot creator, like for himself before I buy him being
anything more than like adequate at that just because the
size the types of shots he's able to generate tend
to be really hard for him. Yeah, So like, I
don't it's possible. I don't see the All Star ceiling.
I think he's going to be a really good player
for a long time. But but like he would, he's
the guy that you would site even more so than
kaminga who I think in the ideal version, certainly in
his mind he is a I'm like Kawhi Leonard on
the ball, like that's that's my role. I don't think
the Warriors see him that way. I don't think anyone
should see him that way. So like that's not the
route I see as like, Okay, if Steph is seriously
diminished or hurt, Kaminga is gonna run. That's not I
don't think that's realistic. Pa Jemski is someone who could
like hold the fort down. But I just think teams
will say, you got to score on us to a
player like him, and that's going to be like tough sliding.
Speaker 1: Are you very quickly when you're saying better, are you
caking in the assumption or a prediction that they're going
to make some type of a trade.
Speaker 2: I think I don't know if i'd phrase it quite
that way. I think I am. I am factoring in
it's for them, it seems more likely than for all
like a lot of teams that because they've already shown
like a willingness to go pretty far down that road
with marking in and they were in on Paul George
to remember, so like they're clearly they're clearly like not
totally comfortable with the idea of, well, just the young
guys will be better and we'll be fine. Like so,
I don't know if i'd say it's definitely gonna happen,
but it's much more likely for them than what like
twenty five other teams probably, So I think you got
to include that in your thinking. My turn here, let's go.
So don't want to pick anybody right next to them. Okay,
this this spot's a little lonely over here, let's do
the Dallas Mavericks.
Speaker 1: Do you think they're upset that they didn't get to
go first? Like always when we do, you know, go
Harrison just in his office in the fetal position, balling
his eyes out.
Speaker 2: They've had to wait for too long. So the fifty
win Dallas Mavericks are not really a real thing because
that factors in what they were before they remade the roster.
They closed with a twelve and three record. I don't
know if you remember this dand they made something called
the NBA Finals, And so I don't view them as
a fifty win team as like a baseline. I think
they're better than that. And so I just as starting point,
it's like, well, we should be talking about them as
if they were a fifty four win team or something,
you know, something higher than that. So from that sense,
it's just like, well, the questions need to be how
much better does Derek Lively get? Is this the year
Luca's in shape? And like really cares because if it is,
then we're talking sixty wins or whatever. Like it just
that's the thing hanging out there of like there's another
level for Dallas and it's if Luca like remakes his body,
not banking on it, that's possibility. And then like just
I think maybe we differed a little bit on this,
so maybe you could take it after this is the
trade off of Derek Jones Junior basically instead of him
Klay Thompson, Nausey Marshall. Is that a Is that an
addition or a subtraction? Go ahead. I'm saying they're gonna
be better. I'm just not totally sure on that last point,
and I know you have some thoughts on it.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty bullish on what they did this offseason because
I think you can make the case that Klay Thompson
plus Nauji Marshall is just better than Derek Jones. I
mean in a vacuum, yes, but for when you're measuring fit,
I think they're still a case. But I think people
have overlooked that they also did is in the process
of getting off Tim Hardaway Junior, is they brought it
in Quenton Grimes, and so that is someone who can
absolutely defend the point of attack if he's healthy and
so like, I don't think they're gonna feel the absence
of Derek Jones Junior quite as much as people think
it might make them have more of an offensive leaning identity,
particularly in closing time if we assume that it's going
to be Klay Thompson plus PJ. Washington, Luca Kyrie and
then a big sure if you're not gonna give a
chance to Nausey Marshall or Dante ExHAM or Quentin Grimes
to get those minutes. I understand maybe you're concern there,
but I think it's okay to lean into your offensive
identity when you have Luca and Kyrie, and I think
the stuff they're gonna be able to run with Clay
just flying off screens, and you said it with the
Warriors that Clay was bad last year. I think defensively,
he was bad, and honestly, I wouldn't even say he's bad,
he's old.
Speaker 2: His shot selection was trash, But which is what you're
getting to.
Speaker 1: Right, And I think it's easier for him to accept
a different role, or to live in a more confining
role outside the Golden State bubble where he has all
that history. And it's not just he has that history,
but the two other guys he came up with, Draymond
Green and Steph Curry, they are still just mission critical
and kind of playing their same roles for the most part,
And so it's easier for him to make that at
functional adaptation in Dallas, and he will just like And
also I think what makes it easier is Kyrie Irving
and Luca Doncics are just inherently more ball dominant than
anyone on Golden State last year except for maybe Chris
Paul in his heyday anyway, so I'm pretty bullish on
their offseason. I think it's maybe it's because so much
of it happened early on, it feels like it's flown
under the radar. I do think you'll miss having Derek
Jones Junior's athleticism and just like Hey you just go
defend so and so, like you can move him up
the positional spectrum in a way that you probably can't
with Naji Marshall or Quentin Grimes, where they're at two
different ends of the spectrum at the same time. They
just have the ability to be massive. KLAYT Thompson is
six ' seven and you have Washington, you have a
big Luka Dantic is huge in the lineups without Kyrie Irving.
If you want to play Clay and Naji Marshall with Luca, PJ.
Washington and Derek, you're just huge. Yeah, and so I
think this team is I wouldn't go sixty wins. I
like never predict a team to win sixty wins, so
you can be better about doing that. But this feels
like fifty five plus win territory to me. So even
if you're using that fifty four wins as a baseline,
it's harder to answer this way, but I probably still
go better.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think that's right. I think mid fifties
feels I don't know if it's conservative, but it feels
like that's a totally defensible number and we just need
to get over fifty. So I think easy enough, I
think for.
Speaker 1: The MAVs, I'm gonna do something here and force you
to have to be the one that completes a row.
So I'm gonna take a team from the second row.
I am going to go with my Oklahoma City Thunder
because they're so often ascribed to me, and you know what,
I will gladly take a point take that ownership. They
won Grant fifty seven games last year. Did you know
that that's quite That's quite a lot of basketball games.
I have them as better. I just you can't. You
can tell me that they went seventy four and eight
and I'd be like, I believe it. Their roster is
so deep and so talented, and I think they addressed
two of what I considered their three biggest needs, where
it's can we get someone into the closing lineup that
you know is going to be more of a reliable
shooter than Loudor or Josh Giddy. Incomes Alex Caruso, and
you sacrifice nothing defensively, even if you're not playing Loudort.
Basically Loudort is stronger for sure, But now if he's
just replacing the Josh Giddy minutes, my god, you get
Isaiah Hartenstein, who can play next to Chet Holmgren is
gonna give you a presence on the glass. He has
some dynamism to him on the offensive end. In terms
of a passer, I think they'll actually gonna let him
shoot threes. Tom Thibodeau would not in New York And
I look at this rush and I go, where's the
Like they just have Aaron Wiggins and Isaiah joe Er
floating around like their seventh and eighth most important players,
and they would certainly be more than that to any
other team. I like, what is the theory of a
thunder being worse? And I think you could point to
and say they still kind of need the other shot
creator because Jalen Williams wasn't there during the postseason, and
so it's all on Shay at points. Guess what. We
talk a lot about players getting better. You know who's
gonna continue to get better, Jaleen Williams. That's not you
saying this, that's me. So I feel like it means
something now, Yeah, because.
Speaker 2: I would say, no matter what, you could be dead
and I'd be like, I really like his outlook.
Speaker 1: Next year, You're you're more You're more casual about throwing
around the superstar designation to him, but you're not wrong.
It's just you say it more often. That's the other like,
that's absolutely his ceiling. So I'm in lockstep with you
on him. And it's also just I'm open to the
idea that Aeron Wiggins is gonna continue to get better.
And I also think we've mentioned this already. A big
part of just going from Josh getting to Alex Caruso
is in the one big minutes, your floor should just
be completely spaced out now in terms of, yeah, Josh
Getty's based the floor, but defenses didn't care. They're gonna
care when Alex Caruso would just shot over forty percent
from three on pretty good volume is out there, They're
gonna be able to explore more of the on ball
dynamic from chet Holmgrin And even if you don't think
he's gonna develop all these different counters, you're just gonna
drive in a lane and he has enough of a
handle to make things happen there, whether it's kickouts or
just get finishing at the basket from mid range like
that stuff that's within his arsenal. This is like I'm
gonna tell you, right, now and things could change. I
have kicked around the idea of just picking Oklahoma City
to win the title, and I think because I disrespect,
I didn't disrespect. I ended up being way too low
on the Celtics last year. I'm reticent to pick anyone
other than them. But this team is right there, and
it just you don't get to use the excuse well
they like it has they haven't played in the moment yet.
They just did in the playoffs and yeah they're the Mavericks.
Kind of gave them me all what four at one point,
but now they've gone through it, and their player, like
Joe Williams specifically, I think, is a player who is
gonna better, like he might have been the single player
on that roster who benefited most from just that postseason crucible.
Speaker 2: Yep, uh no, I I think trying to think of
like something a different angle to take here. I would,
you know, I would focus on the defense, I think,
which was really good last year. They were fourth, right so,
but by in terms of relatively that was their worst
end of the floors. They were third on offense. Uh.
Can you just think about being an opposing offensive player
and seeing a lineup However, you want to do. Whoever
the fifth guy is. It could be Case and Wallace,
it could be Jada, it could be Hertenstein. You got Caruso, Dort, Sga,
and chet Holmgren on the floor. Defensively, like this this
team is going to be the best defense in the league.
I feel really confident. I don't know if they're gonna
win the most games because Boston exists, but I just
think the personnel is so good Defensively. They have like
I don't know where you rank them, but between Caruso
and Dort, like they're you know, immediate mentions and like
who's the guy that sucks the most to be guarded
by on the perimeter, Like they got two of them,
And I think chet Holmgren is like he's kind of
taking on my new Jada like mantle where it's like
I just think I think he's gonna join Williams as
someone that's like if maybe both of them won't be
All Stars, but they will both be guys that we
talk about a lot when we're picking, you know, ahead
of time, and I just I think even if they
here's the other thing, even if they hadn't gone out
and gone Cruiso and Hartenstein. I would still pick them
to win more games. So how do you pick them
to win fewer when they went and got too phenomenal
additions to the roster, you picked.
Speaker 1: Them to win fewer because the numbers just intimidating. I
don't think I was here for fans of teams, and
this isn't an insult. I hate that. I feel the
need to clarify this all the time, but it's not
an insult. But fans the team are like, yeah, they're
gonna win sixty three or something. It's just harder for
me zoomed out to the sixty win like that's what
they They don't need to get there to be better,
but they're fifty seven. Like being better looks like getting
into sixty win territory. And that number has always been
inherently intimidating for me, just like to predict that a
team will win it. But this is if you have
to predict one team in the regular season win that
many games, this is the team. Because Boston is dealing
with the Porzingis injury until like twenty twenty five probably.
Speaker 2: And they don't Boston now knows that we don't need
to do that again, like they should be so confident
that they can keep the foot off for a little while.
Speaker 1: Be fair, the Thunder don't need to do that. But
they have like two good rotations in one, Like they
just have like ten guys that would be like, you know,
they're they're six through ten guys might be the top
five on certain teams basically, and they're younger, and it's.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, they you know, they're probably stinging a little
bit from how they went out, and it's just like
it's one of those things, you know, how do you
factor in like mentality or like motivation to win total?
Isn't it just easier to imagine the Thunder being like
fuck it, like we are. We're going for like we
are dead serious about this. We have so much to prove.
We're all young, like we can run forever. Like it's
just they're well coached. We haven't even talked about that,
Like Mark Deegnold is gonna organize these guys in the
correct way.
Speaker 1: It's not like you and this is not Maybe em
do will be fine with it, but when you're talking
about having too many guys to play, like Oklahoma City
in theory is a team like that, But Mark Dagnell,
Like that's just been the status quo since he came
into Oklahoma City. Is Hey, you need to figure out
a way to fit twenty guys into this ten man
rot twelve man rotation, because like when you look at
their their top ten, like we didn't mention Jay will
or Kenridge Williams. They're like, and you include Aaron Wiggins.
I think you can say comfortably there are ten to
eleven guys that would just get minutes on every single
other team in the NBA. If you feel weird about
Jay Will, okay, fine, but then there are ten guys.
And also, by the way, they seem pretty invested in
Dylan Jones. They'd move up to get him. They'll probably
find developmental minutes for him with the big club too.
So I just and you kind of you didn't say
it specifically, you laid it out with the lineup. They
just have four dudes. And depending on how you feel
about off ball disruption with SGA, they have five dudes
that could just make.
Speaker 2: All defense yeah there, well there, And that's the other
thing they're less subject to, like the vagaries of oh
it's an off shooting night. They could just win games defensively,
that's gonna be the same all the time. Like that,
that's not gonna fluctuate. They just have the guys that
guard the whole. Yeah. I don't know what else we
could say. We're getting over a little bit.
Speaker 1: But one thing that might be interesting. I'm not manifesting it,
but if if they are a team as good as
they are, and you can say this about a lot
of teams, do you feel comfortable like if Shane needs
to miss some time, they feel more at risk than
if Jason Tatum needs to miss some time in Boston.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with Shae specifically, I guess just because what we
saw is that other than him in the playoffs, like,
there's not someone that can reliably get shots. I don't
know if i'd fore clothes on either Home Grin or
Jada like improving enough to where that's not fatal. But yeah,
I think you're right about that. Like the Celtics can
I mean, the numbers bore it out last year, right,
the Celtics were still awesome without Tatum. I don't know, Sgayah.
Actually I don't remember what the on off splits were
for USGA. I just remember they weren't as good as Yokiches,
but nobody's are.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna say that they're probably gonna win sixty
two or more games next season.
Speaker 2: I there might pick run away with the West, whatever
that means. I think they've you know, they've tied for
with the Wolves at fifty seven. I just I don't
see anybody else having improved themselves as much as the
Thunder did. Speaking of is it my turn, Let's just
do the Wolves now, because they also won fifty seven
last year. If you if you had to, well, maybe
let's start here. If you had to guess if I'm
gonna say better or worse, what would you guess?
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna say worse.
Speaker 2: You're wrong, I'm saying better. Uh. And it's it's a
hard one and it's not as like analytical as I
think we like to try to be. And it's mostly
just Anthony Edwards is that guy, and I don't think
he's anywhere near topped out. And I don't think that
there's a reason to believe the defense will be meaningfully worse.
I know, I just said the Thunder will have the
best defense. I think Minnesota is gonna be right there.
And if you combine what might be the second third whatever,
maybe the best if I you know, have to backtrack
a little on okay, see defense with I just think
Anthony Edwards is gonna be better, which is a high
bar to clear. I think they're gonna be motivated too
by especially Edwards, I think is kind of a chip
on the shoulder guy like thinks he's the greatest, justifiably
sometimes is gonna want to take another step forward in
terms of how deep this team goes. The downside is
a calmly injury is still a problem, even with Dillingham
there to I mean, I just can't count on a rookie,
even if he seems tailor made for the role he's
gonna play, to really be a meaningful guy. It's just
ant in the defense. I mean, so I'd open it
up to you to go with any other angles, and
I'm open to like grant, you're stupid, they're gonna be worse.
They were way too good last year. You have to
pick worse. That's a good argument too, But I just
it's a it's a defense.
Speaker 1: I would probably lean worse just for all for what
you just said. And I think, look, Rudy Gobar thirty
two had finger surgery. We just found that out today.
Does that impact him at all or is he is.
Speaker 2: He gotten nine more?
Speaker 1: That's fine, that's fine. Mike Comley's older. In addition to
the injury risk, do we see kind of him take
a step back? And the other thing is you mentioned
him Rob Dillingham. Yeah, he seems perfect for what they
need and a lot of people have made much ado
about his side. He's six y three. He's not like
we've seen six three players before be just fine. And
this team, I think offenses will attack him, but they're
just built to insulate him. I'm more concerned with the
idea of for what you gave up. He's entering training
camp or the season as your backup point guard. And
to give a rookie higher stakes minutes on a could
be or on a not a could be but a
will be championship contender. That's always thorny and you look
at him and I think in summer league we might
see adjustments, of course when he gets to the regular season,
but the theory of him makes so much sense. Someone
who will get off the ball quickly, he will make shot,
he'll create his own jumpers, he'll make jumpers off a catch,
but like, he's not going to get all the way
through to the paint against NBA length and size, And
if you view the like him as someone that you
want to play during the non ant minutes, I think
what's gonna wind up happening is he's gonna face a
lot of blitzes, a lot of doubles, and then they're
just gonna force other players on the court at that
point to beat them. And who if Ant's not on
the court, who is that? And like, yes, the Timberls
ran into those same problems without Anthy Edwards last year.
I'm just not sure, Like long term, maybe Rob Dillingham
addresses what's their biggest need, But they're in this weird
territory and I think it'll be easier to button up
once you get to the playoffs. But for the regular
seasons specifically, I might frame it this way. I think
the Wolves will probably be a bigger threat to win
it all next year, but they're going to win fewer
regular season games. And part of that might just be
do they not care about winning as many regular season
games as they did last season? But to your counterpoint,
you know we didn't mention Jane McDaniels. He can't have
a worse offensive season than he did during there. He
came alive during the playoffs, but he's probably not gonna
get worse. So and you mean, if Kat doesn't suffer
an injury towards the end of the year, you have
to integrate him. I think that this team's championship stocked.
I would say it's pointing upward, but just in terms
of winning more regular season games, I have a tougher
time of It's possible, don't get me wrong, I just
have a tougher time getting there.
Speaker 2: I think you've made the better argument. I think I
think I think we gotta go worse. How much of
a pain in the ass is it for you to
change the graphic that some people listening to this will see.
Speaker 1: Wow, you need to pump up. We're the most popular
podcasts in the world.
Speaker 2: I forgot about that.
Speaker 1: It's already been changed. I think that's the right call,
and maybe they'll live to out perform us. This is,
by the way, doing this without looking at over unders
is I've been trying to steer clear of those people
are starting to come out with the over under pods.
I have not listened or like really dissected into it.
I'm gonna be fascinate to se where they are over
under winds up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we should keep this in mind when we do that,
or just because it's always such a different exercise the
over under, because the number is almost every time it's like,
oh shit, that's exactly how many the wins I thought
they were gonna have. Uh okay, cool, that was the Wolves.
You got what two teams to.
Speaker 1: Choose for him, Let's go to Jazz. So Larry Marketing
is gonna be in Utah for all of next year,
as we predicted. Someone shouted us out. Shout out whoever
shouted us out for predicting that he was gonna sign
the extension after before all the reporting came out and
he was going. It just seemed like for him, it
seemed like the logical move. Yeah, where are the Utah
Jazz going is a fair question. But I think even
with Larry market in, they're gonna be worse. And they
won thirty one games last year. Now, the way they
get to being worse, I think is you just start
to run out of teams that can be bad in
the West. So even though you have Colin Sexton, even
though you have Larry Marketen, even though you have John Collins,
even though you have Jordan Clarkson, even though it's probably
difficult to say we're gonna play all the young dudes
over some of these guys, it just might not matter.
Like you might not be as bad as you should
be if you want Cooper Flag. But they they'll win
thirty games instead of thirty one, though, is how I
frame it. They are invested. I don't think the only
way I see them being better is if you re
signed Larry market with the intentle we're gonna turn around,
or we're maybe gonna try and trade for Brandon Ingram
and get better right away. Because they were involved in
the mchal Bridge's sweepstakes, and if they want to go
that route, they have the tools to one go that
route and still just say we're not done. We have
other assets. But I do think that they're gonna end
up maybe it'll be another sort of mid season about face,
prioritizing their draft lottery stock, and I will say, I
don't know if that's necessarily ideal, because you're gonna be
caught in this weird limbo again where you're a lottery team.
But you're not a high enough lottery team to believe
that you're gonna get one of the top picks. That is,
that's almost it's not immaterial to this conversation, but that's
if you're talking about the Jazz is overarching direction. It's
fair to be concerned about that. But for this I
don't think they're in danger of being Oh man, they're
a thirty five win team and they need to pull
out the rug again. I think they'll they might need
to shut down guys or play them less once you
get later in the season, including Larry Marketing. But by
the way, I don't know if he really wants to
be there, and you've had the conversation with them, he's
now order. You don't need to worry about ruining his
trade value or making him unhappy. He's paid, he's on
the books, he can't leave. If you want to shut
him down or tap his minutes or do both throughout
the season, you can just do that. And so now
there's at least clarity now that you know what's happening
with Larry Marketing, because you can't move him during the season.
So I think they'll win fewer even if they go
for it. Just because the Western Conference. Again, you look
at this, we're we're on the board. There's no team
like the Clippers, in theory might be going to the
season like we're kind of fucked, but they already know,
like their draft assets are headed out the other So
the Blazers are the only team as of right now
that you look at and say they are intending to
maximize their draft lottery position. And then I think after that,
maybe the Spurs enter that conversation. Maybe there's a surprise
team that enters it. But I think it's gonna end
up being Utah, and it might be out of the
gate in the sense that I'll frame it this way.
We normally just don't see trades happen early in the season.
It wouldn't shock me if like Colin Sexton gets moved
in November or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think the market in it does
clarify some things, but it also wouldn't you love to know.
And maybe I haven't looked at much of the reporting.
Maybe this is out there. I don't I haven't seen it.
Like certainly there were conversations between marketing and the Jazz
about like, what's this season gonna look like? Because and
I think the main motivation for him signing when he's,
you know, so he can't be traded this year is
because he likes uton doesn't want to be traded. But
was there a conversation of Okay, we want to keep you,
we're gonna be bad like on purpose this year, or
was it if you sign and commit to this, commit
to us on this new deal, we're gonna, like you said,
turn around and trade guys to get better this year.
I presumably some version of that conversation happened. I would
just love to know, like what what was discussed, because
that would give us a real vision into like, Okay,
what is the direction for this team? I just think
it really comes to down to, like what's the argument
for them really trying hard to be better? And I
guess it would be that, like if you're talking about
the draft lottery, what is it the bottom four records
get the fourteen percent chance at the top pick. So like,
it's not just the West, it's are we gonna be
worse than all? You know, some number? You got to
start thinking about Washington, Detroit, Brooklyn like these it's not
just the West, Like how do we how do we
assure we're a bottom four record in the league. That's
too hard. Those other teams are too bad. We have
Larry markin in, like, so we might as well try
to win thirty four games or something because we like, oh,
we don't want to have the fifth or sixth worst record.
Maybe that's I don't know that that makes tons of sense,
but like that's how it would have to be sort
of gamed out for it to make sense for them
to try to hit the over I guess, or win
more than thirty one. I just kind of agree with you,
like the wins are just gonna be so much harder
to come by. They're one of the only two teams
in the conference that is incentivized to lose. Uh, And
so I think I think they're worse, But I think
would you agree that they have the capacity to be
better more so than like Portland does. I guess the
win totals are different, so it's a hard comparison. But
like marketing in and the vets they have, like they
we've already proved they can kind of mess around and
like play above five hundred ball for like good chunks
of the year then twice in a row. I just
I just don't think you can do that three three
straight seasons and then and then pull the rip chord,
you know.
Speaker 1: In which is why doesn't it feel like they're a
classic TV where TBD team in the sense of this
can't be it. It's like they're gonna end up trading
away players before the off seasons out, or they're gonna
go out and acquire players that help them win, because
I just can't buy into the fact of you you
mentioned it that they're gonna for a third consecutive season,
just pull the ripcord. I mentioned it before, saying if
they do it earlier, but like, what is that even
they could make a trade earlier in the like to
start the season if they think that they're if they
want to be better than expected, but why risk that
for a third consecutive season. So it's just like I'm
I honestly think there's a chance they end up being
better because they decide, Look, we have Larry market In,
We've got all these assets. The Pelicans are willing to
accept John Collins, Walker Kessler in a dirt cheap first
round pick, and we're just gonna get Brandon Ingram and
see that. We're like, I'm honestly just open to them
exploring that path because they can't. This can't be like
the plan can't be the We're gonna resign Larry Markin,
run it back and we'll kind of figure out like
what to do when we get to December January. Can't
it can't be.
Speaker 2: That, And to that point with the thunder kind of
just generally not working this way and also having a
roster that we agree is awesome and basically finished. For
the most part, Utah is a team that can make
the Godfather. Like, here's fifty seven first round picks for
the next disgruntled star. Like, we know you probably don't
want to come to Utah, but we can make the
best offer for you. So like, you know, just pick
Clarkson and Collins and whatever else for salary match in
here's a bunch of picks. We can just go get Nique.
Speaker 1: You know what the player is. I'm gonna mention him
for so many teams know who the player is. Lamela,
that's the player. Yeah, under contract. He's young. I know
market is not super young, so you don't have to
go that route. But LaMelo ball on this team. I
know you have Knte George but they can play off
each other, or maybe County George is in that Tray
package and Lou of draft Equay. They might even be
a team that depending on how they feel about Mark
Williams right now, I assume they're still pretty high on
him since they didn't take Donovan Klingen and they took
Salon instead, they might like Walker so but on and
so if you're Utah though, Grant now that you have
extended Larry markin, what are you that you're in charge
of the jazz? Are you just saying no, we have Lowry,
We're gonna trade everybody else. We're gonna make it clear
to Sexton and Clarkson these guys that they're not gonna
play a ton or And honestly, maybe this is a
short side of me, but they have so many assets
and I just don't see a way for them to
be bad enough to like really juice up their lottery odds.
I'm probably going the route of oh, Brandon Ingham's sheep,
why not? Or I'll go all in for a LaMelo
ball like someone who's younger under contract for a while
that can noticeably impact their ceiling.
Speaker 2: Man. I my first instinct was I really want Cooper
Flag and I already missed out on wemben Yama because
I we didn't thank soon enough. I can't let it
happen twice in a three year span. But but like
you did bring back market In, like and you did,
it did happen with the timing that makes him untradable
this season. I think your route makes more sense given
where they are. And then like, it makes me uncomfortable
because you're just giving up on the idea probably of
we're gonna go get like a real like someone better,
someone that could be better than market In, or could
be better than LaMelo or Ingram or whoever we end
up with. Like, you're closing that door a little bit,
even though the draft's a crap shoot. Who knows they
could draft seventh and get the best player in the
history of planet Earth. You never know. But like, I
think I'm more with you that you should just maybe
you should add to this group. He already got a
million picks, right, Maybe that's the play, by the way.
Speaker 1: And finally, I know people could say, well, lowry market
is more valuable as a trade asset on this extension.
That is totally fair. But if you re signed him
with the intent to move him, you're in still an
awkward situation of you're not gonna help his trade value.
If you cap his minutes or shut him down at
some point, that's not gonna help his trade value. And
then if you're gonna play him full bore, you're then
only gonna hurt your draft lottery stock, which matters because
you would, in theory, then be planning on trading him.
And so that's why I almost wonder there feels like
there might be even if they're tiny fire there might
be fireworks in Utah left this offseason because I don't
I personally do not see the logic behind re signing
him and then still prioritizing the ultra long gamer we
want to go get Cooper Flagg or have a top
lottery pick and park, because I just don't see the
pathway to them doing that without is it shutting him down,
which makes no sense.
Speaker 2: Isn't the logic that and I it's probably to me
it's flawed. Isn't the logic that by getting marketed under
contract for more years he is a more valuable trade asset,
Except the problem is he's a more valuable trade asset
after a whole fucking year of playing on this team
that's not trying to win theoretically, like that's a week.
I don't know, man, Like, I'm not sure that can
work if you traded on it.
Speaker 1: The other thing that's so hard about the team is
who are you trading that's not marketing these Oh they'll
that'll make the Jazz a lot worse, Like, yeah.
Speaker 2: They don't have that guy.
Speaker 1: It's Sexton is probably like, to me, the closest. And
then even if you trade or shut down these vets,
we're just gonna rule out that Keane George or Cody
Williams just kind of pop or tailor Hendrix pops and
you still I just I feel like I'm like negatively
critiquing the direction they're headed in. It's just so I
don't is it optionality, is it lack of form? What
is happening here? But at this point, I'm I'm sort
of bullish on the idea of you might as well
just try and get better and hope that one that
helps you. But also that these all these their teams
just picks that you own, looking specifically at Cleveland or Minnesota,
that some of those later selections just become gold you're
either able to use in a trade to make you
like hit that level or you end up with a
top you know, seven prospect or whatever.
Speaker 2: So then why aren't we make saying they're going to
be better? I think we all most of the arguments
we've made is that it's easier for in a lot
of ways for them to be better, or it's like
it makes more sense for them to try to be better.
So is it just the West is hard? Everybody else
is is is above them? It's who can they leap frog?
So they should tank or whatever? Like, But all we've
I don't know how long we've talked about the Jazz,
but they're an interesting team for all these reasons, Like
shouldn't we just say they're going to be better? Since
we agree? I think pretty clearly that like that's what
you should try to do.
Speaker 1: No, because here's my issue is that if you're gonna
say they're going to be better, you either have to
be just a huge believer in the roster that they
have right now, or you're predicting that they're going to
make that winish now, if you want to phrase it
that way, move And I'm not gonna predict that because
Danny Ainge is he's he's kind of in the Darryl
Mory camp where he's been willing to make uncomfortable moves
or non moves where others happen, And so it wouldn't
shock me if his plan is just we're gonna run
it back and I'll make the decision mid season again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I I think I think we should. We
gotta stay worse. But I feel less confident in that
than I did before we started talking about it, because.
Speaker 1: Oh why I will I will say that there's a
lot of what do you But I guess the question
is we already answered what we would do, which is
to go out there and make a move that makes
you better. What do you think they're actually more likely
to do to make that move to either or then
sell off either before the season or in the middle
of the season.
Speaker 2: Again, I just I don't know. I don't know anything. Yeah,
I'm not sure it could go either way. It maybe
maybe it's just as simple as uh, Danny Ainge is
like is defining characteristic as like he is an opportunists
when it comes to transacting, and maybe maybe his you like,
we're kind of being facetious but maybe it really is.
He's just like, we'll just kind of see, we'll see
where we are, We'll see what's out there. We got,
you know, we don't what's the urgency. We can we
can decide what to do when the situation presents itself.
And granted, I think also that that does cost you
probably your best chance to finish as a bottom four team,
and maybe they don't care about that.
Speaker 1: Is there any possibility that we're overestimating or underestimating how
hard it is to pick up wins as a Western
Conference team at this point, because as they're honestly, could
they win like noticeably fewer than thirty But I guess
you run into the you know, like go to the East,
so we know the Blazers are gonna be worse than
the Jazz, assuming that the Jet Well, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2: And the question you're asking is where do those wins
come from? If they're gonna get more of them? And
it's like, well, the Grizzlies are going to pick up
twenty five more, the Spurs are gonna win twenty more
or whatever. Like it's we've look at our board, like
we've got way more one, two, three, four, five, six,
seven eight, so not way more. But we've got more
teams improving than not so like and most of our
like you said at the Clippers, like maybe some of
the wins come from there, but other than that, it's like,
and where do you find them?
Speaker 1: Do you think that when you're looking at the East
very quickly, I guess I'm not prepared to say that
many teams are gonna be worse than Utah, Detroit, and Washington.
Speaker 2: For sure.
Speaker 1: I think Brooklyn will get itself there. So that's four teams.
Are you prepared to say that the Bulls, the Raptors,
or the Hornets are gonna be worse than those? Are
the teams that you look at and say, well, I
could see it's anario where it's a coin flip, or
Chicago starts moving players or isn't playing certain guys. The
Hornets if LaMelo gets injured again or miss his time,
But like I would still say, like Utah even is
currently constructed, I'm not prepared to guarantee that they'll be
better than no Raptors, Bulls are or Hornet, but I
think you could say safely they'll be better than one
of them at least. And so now all of a sudden,
it's okay, that's a bottom six record, right.
Speaker 2: Right, So no, that was what I'm saying earlier. It's
just like it's gonna be real hard to assure you
get that. You would have to do a ton of
like purposeful maneuvering to make like we're definitely a bottom
four team, because thirty one wins is like, you know,
that's that's a lot. That's a lot when you're talking
about like how far do we have to fall to
get into this range we want? And it might just
be it might be impossible, like you you might just
not be able to You can't get as bad as Washington,
you know, as bad as as I think Brooklyn might
be really bad. You know, you mentioned Detroit, like there's
just the Jazz one more than twice as many games
as both Detroit and Washington last year. Like I just
don't it's it's gonna be tough, I don't know, really interesting, sneaky,
interesting team desire.
Speaker 1: And we literally came to zero like consensus or resolution
with them. We were we have them as worse, but
we talked in circles for fifteen minutes. Oh for sure,
all right, let's do an easier one. I think an
easier one, and it's our last one. Right, Uh, let's
do Denver. And look, people worried about us going in
a in a draft type order, and we did it.
We didn't even try to do the same team twice.
I forget one. Look at that. Look at that.
Speaker 2: First of all, I have to go back and correct.
I said the Wolves won fifty seven. They won fifty
six last year. As I'm just sorting here, the Nuggets
won fifty seven, tied with Okac for the most in
the West. So that's a high bar. They are more
dependent on one player than anybody else. That one player,
I still think, and I think we agree, is the
best player in the world.
Speaker 1: But if because they didn't really act like it this summer,
but carry on.
Speaker 2: Well, let's we'll get to that. That's gonna be a
big part of the argument. If he's hurt, like they
just they are not going to be favored to like
beat like anybody. You know, they might go if yoga
missus two weeks, they might be favored to win like
one game in that stretch, you know, just from a
betting odds perspective, just but this with the numbers, would
say right, they just fall apart. Jamal Murray's health question,
Mark Cacp's gone, that's the big one. Like, even if
you don't think he mattered all that much, he was
still a fifth starter on a team that won a title.
He'd won a title for He's just an ideal role player,
still pretty much as good as he's ever been, and
they didn't do anything to replace him their banking on youth.
Speaker 1: I just I just don't see the Westbrook and Russell Westbrook.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's where we should stop. Uh. Yeah, fifty seven
is too high for me, even though well maybe also
because I forget who KCP was the one that said
they ran out of gas, right because they had to
put on a run at the end of the year
because they cared about their seating and they ran out
of juice in the playoffs. Maybe that's an argument that
they won't do that and like.
Speaker 1: That, like anybody who went retired to Orlando, he was done.
Speaker 2: I don't know, do you think they're gonna win more?
I think they're gonna I think they're gonna be worse.
Speaker 1: So we have a lot of Nuggets followers on YouTube,
and I love every single one of you. I think
there's a possibility that Jokich is so good and if
they get good health and Christian Brown continues to get better,
that yes, this is a sixty ish win team.
Speaker 2: Again, Peyton Watson pops maybe like that's I'm just not
I'm not.
Speaker 1: Gonna predict it. And if you you lost your fifth starter,
who was probably your fourth best player last year, he
was better than Michael Porter Junior for most of the season,
and offensively he gives you more than an Aaron Gordon,
this is still an incredibly talented team. I still very
much like Christian Brown and Peyton Watson. What we saw
from Christian Brown against the Minnesota series, say, look to
the Nuggets' credit, and we mentioned this leading into the
series that we thought Brown might be a better defensive
option against the Wolves than KCP. That came to bear out,
And so that can make you higher on Christian Brown.
I just worry they're putting too much, not not necessarily
on Nicole Yoch. Well, they're putting too much on Nikola
Jokic to just lift up. Maybe I said they didn't
act like he was the best player in the world.
They kind of did and just said not Yoki will
figure it out like that positive player. I think that
what they did is increase the gap between the Jokic
and non Jokic minutes, and that, to me is a problem.
Like it for me, it gets harder for them to
build units without Jokic. So we're talking in the regular season,
specifically what thirteen to seventeen minutes a game, whatever it
ends up being, it gets harder for me to envision
them fielding lineups that are gonna be net positives. And
I know people think this might be the team that
utilizes Russell Westbrook properly. Part of the appeal of that
happening is probably him playing with nikolajokicch And I don't
know how to feel about the bench because I'm assuming
Christian Brown is gonna start, And so let's say that happens. Now,
all of a sudden, you have Sharich and Westbrook and
Peyton Watson playing in the same units. If Michael Malone
doesn't change his rotation patterns, that's a little bit of
a red flag for me, because now you're dealing with Okay,
Sharge can stretch the floor, but he's not a capslock shooter.
And none of their backup big except for Zeke Naji,
who they you know, what do we even count him
like as part of the equation?
Speaker 2: Sill still exists.
Speaker 1: We know that, but like when you had Reggie Jackson
as your backup point card, at least that with someone
who in theory could shoot. And it's now like, does
the floor shrink too much there? Does do we gain
this and say, well, should we be starting Peyton Watson
just because we know that Nikole Jokic will be able
to better, like the offense will still mostly be fine.
There's just so many questions here, and I want to
make it clear they are still in my inner circle
of title contenders. I just don't feel as confident as
I felt in them the past two years when they
were my title pick in each of the past two preseasons.
They will probably not be my title pick this preseason.
And what I can't wrap my head around is even
if you wanted to prioritize development, you could have done
that and still kept KCP, And then I think that
would have left open up like after what Christian Brown did,
and like having Peyton Wattson's and Julian Strath are healthy,
I might have been Yeah, maybe maybe they're just better
and I don't. I think they've they've leaned too far
into this. We're gonna bet on internal development for me
and for them to do that, it's not just a
trust in Nikole Yokic. You need to trust that Jamal
Murray is actually a MAX player who can carry lineups
on his own. And when you look at how many
of his minutes come alongside Nicole Jokic, it's not even
a matter of minutes without Nicole yoak at your bad
which they are, it's that Michael Will clearly doesn't trust
him at the level you would have a typical second
MAX player who's also considered your second best playmaker to run.
Maybe that changes this year. I'm open to anything with
this team. They're still uber talented, but fifty eight wins
is a tall order, and so I just think the
faulting to worse is the safer, smarter pick.
Speaker 2: I think that's right, and I think it is important
to distinguish between regular season success and like where they
fall in the you know, the title odds or are
not the actual odds, but like who we view as
teams that could like yeah, okay, oh, Denver won the title,
all right? Like not, you know, that it's that's not
it's not going to be like, no way how they
do it without KCP. It's a different thing. Like and
I would just ask you, like, is it too much
of a talking head question to say like considering players
on the team, maybe just imputing it to everybody, but
like it's been said that they ran out of gas
and that's why they lost. Yeah, are you concerned that
Jamal Murray Nicole Yogic are playing in the Olympics like
that they're playing over the summer after a title run
and after a deep playoff run and now there's no
there's less of a break, Like I don't know if
fatigue was a factor, Like this ain't helping, right, Like
that's great, that's part of it. It feels a little
like first take you, but you know it's not. It's
not something you totally gloss over in this particular situation either.
If you're talking about like maybe they rest guys a
little more because they're wiped out from two and a
half years of of busting their ass, Like that's that's
a thing like that could absolutely, you know, knock them
down a win or two. It's not it's not out
of the realman possibility.
Speaker 1: Again, what if you were to make the argument that
they're a better team than they were last season?
Speaker 2: What is it?
Speaker 1: Is the pathway just that both Christian Brown and Peyton
or I'll say two of Christian Brown, Peyton Watson and
Julius Strouther are just better than Kntavious Calbo Pope post
for Like, what is the actual And I guess that
would be a fair bet to make. I still find
it Why would you let Casey p walk? I just
I'm struggling to figure out, like, what is the argument
aside from just maybe there's injuries elsewhere that Nicole Yokic
plays in all eighty two games, wins another MVP Award
and you It's just I don't like to actually argue,
forget actually forget about wins for a second, to just
argue that they're a better overall team than last year.
I find myself struggling to like the outcome would I
think would have to be what I said, is that
two of those young guys are better than KCP was
for you last year.
Speaker 2: I think I think we're thinking about it similarly. I
would frame it as the argument would be not necessarily
that like Brown or Watson or Strather or whoever you
want to choose. Is is like it is better than KCP.
I think what the argument would be is it actually
doesn't matter who gets to play big minutes with Jokic.
He'll find a way to like make the difference up somehow,
so like Brown doesn't have to be better. It's that
Jokic will just figure out how to use what he's
good at. If you give him kcp's minutes, you know,
long enough stretches to he'll just turn him into a
different type of good player. But it's like the bottom
line will be you could put some like four scarecrows
around your kitchen, you'd figure it out. Like that's to me,
it's really you said it earlier. It's just a bet
on him as much as anything. If you're saying they're
gonna be better.
Speaker 1: Because it's tough good. I know, losing Bruce Brown. They
couldn't keep Bruce Brown. I'll make that clear. If this
is the second offseason in which they lost a player
where even if you are looking at a potential placement
already on the roster, they don't check the same number
of boxes. Where Okay, you had concerns about kcp's offense
in the postseason, just in a vacuum, he is more
of the gonna get up threes and give you really
good defense than Julian Strather doesn't check both those boxes.
Christian Brown right now doesn't check both those boxes. Peyton
Watson doesn't check both those boxes. And so they're all
different types of players. And now this is the second
offseason in which that's happened to them. And so even
if the development comes along, is the best version of
Peyton Watson next season good enough offensively to offset that?
Ditto for Christian Brown, Or is the best version of
Julian Strother enough defensively to offset that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just it just puts more of a burden
on Jokich. And like, look, if you I don't know,
it feels like ancient history now, but it's like you're
taking a really good defensive piece out of your most
used lineups. I know Brown, Brown's great like I and
maybe Watson's great, But if it's Strawther, just because you
need shooting, you can't have Brown and Brown or Watson
and Aaron Gordon. If Aaron Gordon's gonna be shooting like
you did last year, you gotta have shooting. Then it's like, Okay,
there's a weaker defensive link, and now we're going to
relitigate the Jokic can't anchor a good enough defense to
win a title thing because you're just chipping away at
like his support system. I don't know if you can.
I'm open to the idea that, like, offensively, the Nuggets
will be awesome, just it doesn't matter who's around Jokic.
That's not that's just not true. On the other end, necessarily,
I do think he's improved a ton, But if you're
looking for like where's the where's the drop off happening,
it's potentially that you're just going to be sacrificing something
in lieu of Casey, right, Like, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Do you think any one other than Oklahoma City slash
Boston has usurped them in the championship conversation pecking order?
I think the teams to note there would be Dallas, Minnesota, Philly,
and New York, maybe Cleveland if it were Milwaukee, Like
are you I wouldn't guarantee any of those teams are
just have better title equity than Denver. No, I think
that's right.
Speaker 2: So you put I think maybe what you're saying is
you've got okay See in Boston. I think if we're
doing tiers, which were not yet, but like they feel
like Denver.
Speaker 1: In their tier, but behind both of them within that tier.
Speaker 2: So it's like they have a case and we're not
going to argue about it, but they're technically ranked below
title contender.
Speaker 1: Is just how I would frank, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: I like I like them better as a title threat
than I mean, yeah, I guess, I don't know. They
almost feel like they fit right between OKAC Boston and
then the other teams you listed, like it's.
Speaker 1: A second tier right with the Joelle and beat health
stuff in Philly, the Knicks just Julius Rynolds postseason track
record and if your second now if you move him
as your second best jock Creader Bridges and then Minnesota
on rot we're talking about betting on youth. I mean,
it didn't cost them any of their veterans, but like
if Rob Dillingham is gonna play this huge role into
the postseason, so there's I think that's I think that's right,
is that it's they're probably sandwiched between Boston and okay
See and then all those other teams that we met, and.
Speaker 2: Then to even thin slice it more, I do think
that if I had to choose a tier, I would
probably move Denver up into that top tier more likely
than I would move them down among Minnesota, New York, Philly, whatever.
Speaker 1: Minnesota and Dallas are tripping me off, and even Milwaukee
I'm kind of just sitting there, like they had a
Gary Trent junior and they were killing people with their
top four players in the court last year. But Chris
Middleton is two new ankles. Is that a good thing
or a bad thing? I don't. I don't know so uh,
but they do feel more at risk of not being
what you just said were. They feel more at risk
of being passed. Like once we start to play the games,
I might look at it and say, whereas I probably
wouldn't have been envisioned it if they brought back KCP.
I'm now more open to the idea of, well, if
we start to see the games like I could see
Minnesota or Dallas or feel like I can see those
teams like usurping them, I wouldn't. Again, I'm not predicting
it right now, but they do feel more vocal. They
certainly I mean, objectively speaking, they are more vulnerable in
the championship discussion than they were last year.
Speaker 2: I think that has to be uncontroversial. Like I don't
maybe maybe like Nuggets, fans will say, like no, no,
like somehow Brown and or Watson and or Strawther and
or Pickett and or just down down down the list
are are somehow better than KCP. I just like I
don't where a.
Speaker 1: Hunter Tyson stands at. Let's get that in the frontment.
Speaker 2: Who can say?
Speaker 1: Are you not even take us at your first pod back, Batner,
I haven't edited it yet, and we had some fu
technical fuck ups along the way on my end, but
you came back to over one hundred minute podcasts, so
you're you're in playoff form already after vacation, and.
Speaker 2: We had those a time we had lightning on a
podcast that knocked out your internet. I mean the force
of my dogs.
Speaker 1: Though they did bust in because they were scared, but
they were just quiet. One of them actually just left
when I was giving them a.
Speaker 2: Compliment, so would I wouldn't have known it my doorbell ring.
It feels like a little bit that the universe was
conspiring to end this podcast, especially with acts of God
like lightning storm.
Speaker 1: You know what, sickle mode was activated and so we
pur severed.
Speaker 2: Couldn't do it. Yeah, let's see force. We don't have
any force masurer clauses because there's no uh, there's no
way for God or anyone to stop us from podcasting.
Maybe that's the new tagline. God can't stop us. Not
even God can stop us.
Speaker 1: Try and keeps fayling.
Speaker 2: They tried, they can't do it. All things are possible,
not that can't do it. Uh oh uh, we got
let's hammer this out live on air. Jared Allen just
got paid again. Are we still apologizing to him? Do
we apologize more? Or do we stop and pick somebody else?
Speaker 1: Because we should just keep apologizing to him, because they've
very clear, like we'll sign you to this just so
that we can still trade you this season. Probably there was.
Speaker 2: Any hit your toughness, I apologize you'd have though, well
you were gone a Cavs fan.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what they disagreed with that I was
talking about. I couldn't remember, but they said, isn't just
the same podcast that thought the Jared Allen contract was bad?
And I did you actually missed it? While you were gone.
I went months without responding to any negativity. A Kings
fan ended up catching me in a bad moment said
that we didn't watch basketball, and I called him an asshole.
I deleted it. I think they were kind of being
an asshole, but I need to be about saying it.
And then I responded to this yokal on Twitter on YouTube.
I was like, we literally apologized to Jared Awen in
every single podcast I GRANTM I do together, so please
people are wrong and they and walk it back, get
out of here and look, the one thing we got
right is would having Jared Allen there maybe limit repress
Evan Mobley ceiling. I prove it hasn't. Yep.
Speaker 2: It seems like it's the what's the hoped for response
from someone that says you don't watch basketball? Do you like?
Is it hope that like probably you got us You're right.
Speaker 1: I need it to be not so much as a
wimp and let it in like I don't. I shouldn't
care what these random people on the internet thing. But
I tell you, the negative feedback loop, even when it's
not creative or can like valid criticism, it.
Speaker 2: Just gets exhausting.
Speaker 1: Sure, but that at the top is the world's best podcast.
Speaker 2: I guess you know, yeah, you know, I find another
one that did. God can't stop. All right, Well, I
guess we leave them in. I think you know we've
we've come down. We've gone down this road for so long.
U If you if you have not already, great review, subscribe,
Tell your friends, tell your enemies, comment on YouTube, help
the algorithm. Love us. Check out the merch It's brand new.
We're both sporting it. I even have a hat behind
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check out the merch shop. Join our discord links for
all that stuff in the YouTube and podcast description. We
close as always and forever. Oh Dan's got a hat
to U.
Speaker 1: Terrible. I should have branded it on the back because
I only wear my hat's back, so.
Speaker 2: You know next time. Merchan dropped three point zero. Shouts
to Frank Nee la Quina and foreveryone, Always New Money.
Apologies to Jared Anlay